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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande. Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network, visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:29] Speaker 2: to the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown the cat. Staphy, I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. He was a swing and a dance captain and car Bucha and a bunch of other stuff in the 2016 Broadway revive of cats. So welcome Tanner Ray Wilson, and thank you for joining me.

[0:45] Speaker 3: Hello and thank you for having me. I'm so excited. I

[0:49] Speaker 2: am. It's always fun to talk to a dance captain, because you have, I think, a unique perspective of knowing way more about the show than others do by force, of having to learn so many different tracks. But before we get into that, I always love to hear your your history. Like, what is your cat's history before the show? So had you seen it? Did you see as a kid? Did you do it anytime before? Like, what was your background?

[1:12] Speaker 3: I had definitely seen. I was one of those 90s kids who had the VHS who watched it and was kind of like horrified and also mysteriously inspired at the same time. But I had definitely seen the movie, and I got the show without having actually seen even the production that I was joining. So the first time I saw cats was when I had booked it and they gave me a free ticket. Wow.

[1:38] Speaker 2: Okay, so you so you knew the 1998 movie as just like that right age saw you said horrified, which is the right description for that show. But also I

[1:47] Speaker 3: should clarify and say that I did love it. I wasn't like we sought out to see the movie multiple times because we were just so confused and we liked it.

[1:55] Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you had never, so you've never seen the same production until you book the show and you go watch the cast you're going to be joining.

[2:02] Speaker 3: Yeah, it was pretty epic. I mean, honestly, I feel like as far as introductions to seeing cats, mine was top notch. Yeah, here

[2:09] Speaker 2: so, So walk me through that first viewing in probably 2016 17.

[2:14] Speaker 3: 2016 Yeah, this was in October, so I was one. I was the first non original cast member to join this production, and I booked it in September, and I started immediately, like the next day, which was a Tuesday, and I had to rehearsal with Kim Craven, who was the resident choreographer, and kind of like was like the haggard of cast, like, took care of everything and kept all the keys and stuff, but she rushed over with me to watch for the first time, and I remember not panicking yet, because I did have one specific cast that I could follow the entire time and do homework in real time. But when I thought about being a swing, and this was probably later on, but when I thought about swinging, it was a more overwhelming experience. But the first time it was, I mean, obviously incredible. I I just kind of was like, geeking out and confused still by the show, but very, very, very happy to be there. So

[3:10] Speaker 2: when you're doing that first viewing, you're going in and you're going in as car Bucha, so you're gonna go in for one cat. Did you really like, embrace the show, or were you just like, following car Bucha the whole way through, trying to figure out what your life was about to be. Well, I think

[3:25] Speaker 3: a little bit of both. I think there were moments that I didn't anticipate to be overwhelming, and I was happy that I was, like, moved at the theater by the show that I was joining, because cast is cast, and you either really love it and you lean in and you drink Kool Aid, or you watch it from a distance and you see that it's not going anywhere, and it just comes back. But I, I leaned in and I loved it, and I followed the character, and luckily he just kind of like, jumps in and out of the spotlight every now and then, and then you get to watch the rest of the show. So it was pretty great. Honestly, that's awesome.

[3:58] Speaker 2: So yeah, so now you're you're coming in, you're learning carbucity. How much, like, what is it coming in later in the run? Like, do you do felinity school? Do you like, get the story told to you? Like, how much is told to you at that point?

[4:13] Speaker 3: It's like, I would say, if the original cast went to felinity school, I had a homeschooled version of that. Okay, I definitely had, like, one on one teachings with Kim, and she did a great job as, like a scribe and a historian, and passing along the knowledge that she learned when she was in salinity class. And, you know, later on down the road, Chrissy Cartwright would come and she would give her knowledge, and she has, like, an endless amount of knowledge on it. So I learned eventually, I would say, that coming into it, it was more about stand in the right spot. Don't get hit by the boot. Watch out for these people. Make sure that you make sure that you're like, not gonna die, basically, yeah,

[4:53] Speaker 2: yeah. So, so you're not even given, like, a backstory. You're just like, hey, here's where you need to be. And don't, don't mess. No,

[5:00] Speaker 3: they give you, they definitely give you a backstory. Because, believe it or not, there are things that are plot driven in cats and that you actually have to be cognizant and aware of. But like the ball, for instance, there would be a lot of direction in that, lots of acting beats and moments that make it kind of more a ballet than a musical theater piece. But we were very specific. And they give each cat three words that they're supposed to embody,

[5:29] Speaker 3: carbuckety fashion. I forgot as he would. So I know one of them was like, brave. So he was a brave, like, teenage cat. I liked it. I felt like it was, like, an easy one to understand. He was just kind of like Meowth, if you've seen Pokemon, yeah, just like a little rambunctious, okay, and mischievous, and wants to be like Tugger. Wants to be like Mungo Jerry, but doesn't quite like have it yet.

[5:57] Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't done his depot dive into car Bucha. So let's actually go into this now, because I did want to ask you, like, tell me. Like, tell me, what is his like? If you're writing the prequel to carbucity, coming to the ball, like, what am I learning about him?

[6:14] Speaker 3: You are learning that he is at a delicate time in his life as a Jellicle. He's, if you know, he's not yet a cat, not but not a kitten. You know what? I mean. He's somewhere in the in the middle. So I would imagine that it's pretty angsty. I think that he shows out a lot because he's at that tender age of, you know, feelings and stuff. So I probably has a pretty uneventful life, and when he gets to the Jellicle Ball is when he starts to, like, show out and be that bad boy that he wants to be. But I don't, I don't know. I don't think that he has the confidence to do that on his own.

[6:55] Speaker 2: Okay? So he's kind of wanting to be the future Tugger, for sure. Yeah. Now when you look at a an age kitten, teenage cat, like a carbuckety, do you believe, like, did you play, that you even have a chance of being picked to be reborn or No,

[7:12] Speaker 3: no, no, it was kind of always my understanding that the kittens were just there to learn the ritual, okay, so they're just see it, and to, like, absorb that, and be like, Yeah, me, someday this is going to be me. But no, in my eyes, it was always meant for the adults to be like, Oh, do I have a chance? And more, so the adults that have, like, a pageant style number, do I have a chance?

[7:34] Speaker 2: Someone's got a ballot that you could say to be, yeah, exactly. Okay, so your your car buckety for a period of time, and then you go to you become a swing, right?

[7:45] Speaker 3: Yes. So I covered Giuseppe basilios medical leave when he was carbucha D. So he was the original. And I did that for just about five months. And I was lucky enough to already know that I was going to be a swing. So as I am karbaki, I'm learning these other cats, and I'm learning Corona first, and that's an experience I'm learning then after that, five other cats along the way over the year and a half that I'm there, but swinging was like chapter two, and like the fastest roller coaster ever, because I had never done it before. So,

[8:21] Speaker 2: okay, so that's that I've signed the whole concept of being a swing fascinating, like, it's already a very grueling and difficult show to to be able to do and be able to learn. I think you said five tracks, yeah. How is it going back and forth between those personalities like to go from one, you know, because it's, it is a loose plot, and so a lot of it is how you're acting and playing the character in that moment. How do you like mentally, go from a Tuesday to this person to a Wednesday to this person, to Thursday, this person,

[8:53] Speaker 3: you know, I'm gonna raise that up a level and go even like, from act one to act two, really, okay? Oh, for sure. For sure. There were times and cast bless it. It is just a show that you cannot have enough swings. There's not enough coverage. It just, it's, it's a wild beast. And there was one show that we had someone swung out, which was a luxury, that we had a cat, where we would swing an on stage member out and put in a swing so that people can have experience also, so that on stage players could rest. And I was in one track, I think I was on for car Bucha D, and the person who was playing it at the time, Jacob Carr, he was swung out. And I was, you know, everything's fine. Somebody gets hurt inevitably, and they're like, You know what? You're actually the only one that can now go on for core copad. So we're gonna have to change you from cry, Bucha Pat. We're gonna have to put Jacob into the show. Like, Oh, amazing. I don't know why I wasn't like, bothered, but I was like, this is such a fun like, test. Yes, like, let's do it. And we did it in seven minutes. So

[10:02] Speaker 2: you guys, I changed, completely changed. I mean, full makeup, everything. Full makeup,

[10:06] Speaker 3: yeah, we had the head of the makeup department was doing my right side of my face, and I was trying my best to mimic her on the left side. Obviously she was a professional. I looked it. We made it work. It was fine. It was exciting. But it is. It's funny, because if you want to look at the characters, karbaki Is this like we were just talking about, I'm a crazy, rambunctious teenager, and corocopat is like a wizened old psychic twin, and he starts that with that vibe at Act Two, with Old Deuteronomy. So that was wild. It was wild, regardless of who I was on for and what was happening. So

[10:44] Speaker 2: how did you make that change? Like, did you, like, just take a deep breath and go and start to be a new person? Like, and that's that is a dramatic shift from a I think maybe I'll phrase this a little differently. I think a lot about as a I watch a lot of sports, I play lots of sports. And when you go and you start, like, you kind of prep for an event and a big game, and you're playing a game, so like, I play hockey, I play forward, and if all of a sudden, in the middle of the game, someone's like, someone's hurt, go play defense. I had just prepped all game forward, and now I have to completely change my mindset. Like I wouldn't totally, I wouldn't be at my top performance. Yeah, how like, how is it's obviously challenging you make do, but yeah, how do you like? What is the method in the moment to try to get yourself from character a to character B?

[11:34] Speaker 3: The method in the moment, for me was always to just like, remember the homework that you had already done on this person or this cat, excuse me, this character that you're playing. So I was lucky enough to if you have to have a mindset, you're either kind of born with it or not, and that's why swinging is tricky. You either can fall into this almost like obstacle course like mindset, where you can easily see which lane you're in and cast kind of because it was so hard, was easier to go into that lane. But I definitely feel like for that instance, in particular, the adrenaline pushed me through whatever choices I was going to be making as an actor anyway. So it probably wasn't until after we had gotten onto the stage. And luckily, it's moments of happiness, and you're literally lying there and just kind of taking it in. So I think there was a lot of like, Oh, you were but you were just this. And now it's like everyone kind of gets thrown for a loop. Because not only are you trying to recognize who I am as a human, but you also know that I was just a different cat. So it takes a second. I think you do take a deep breath. You have to remember that you should actively flip on your brain and think of it as an obstacle course for a second before you try to make any artistic life changing jobs.

[12:55] Speaker 2: Well, you're poor twin too. I mean, you know, you're, you're partnered with somebody. Yeah,

[13:01] Speaker 3: it's such a it's such a symbiotic relationship. If you're not warmed up with your twin, or if you have to all of a sudden, just like, kind of jump into that, it could be a little clunky sometimes, for sure, it's

[13:11] Speaker 2: also one of the few shows that you can get away with it because you're in makeup and costume, where there's some other shows where it's like, I think of it's just another person. It's like, it'd be pretty obvious. And I know it happens. I know that they just kind of make do and run with it. It's a little less obvious. In cats, it is a little

[13:28] Speaker 3: bit less obvious. And even when you have to make an announcement in the middle if something were to happen, and it's still a little more mysterious, people tend to forget, yeah, but some people do know. Some people are at the stage door clocking you like you were this one. I know you looked at me at this moment and you're like, wow. Okay. People love cats. Really watching. I've

[13:48] Speaker 2: talked to somebody else fans. They know they're, they're watching because they're going, but their goal is to see certain people do certain tracks. Yeah, exactly. They're, they're like, way to go see it, which is different level of fandom than I definitely have.

[14:04] Speaker 3: It's admirable, but it is certainly something that I've never been able I haven't been able to muster that much energy as a fan for anything. Yeah,

[14:10] Speaker 2: my my passion, even in this show, which you know, is multiple episodes of recording in my passion is about a very different part of the show than the wanting to see a certain person do a certain part of it, it's, I want, right? I want to write, rewrite the ending of the show, which is, I think, a different, different fandom.

[14:30] Speaker 3: So it's fun, though I'm so into it. I do often like fanfic, in my mind, about ways that cats could have gone. Okay, well,

[14:37] Speaker 2: we're gonna get into those soon. Tell me about so you did four other Who else did you swing for?

[14:43] Speaker 3: So I said five. I probably, I think I did more. I covered car, Bucha, D corocopat, tumble Brutus, because I'm a gymnast. I covered alanzo. I covered Mungo, Jerry and I covered miss. Miso,

[15:00] Speaker 2: believe so you can write every routine, basically, that you could do, and pouncable, okay, so seven, wow, yeah, who was your favorite to do?

[15:10] Speaker 3: Um, that's actually really tough. And I will say I did think about this, but it is hard to say, because it went I was there for a while, and I I did certain cats a lot, like I did coracle pat a lot. And I did love that one. It was super dancey. It was very partnery, and the makeup was fun. And I did it. I was on stage for my twins Broadway debut one night, and we were both doing the track for the first time. So that one had a little bit of like esteem to it, as well as car Bucha. Mr. Misophyllies was fun, but I very much knew my place in that line of coverage. And when I went on, it was an event, and I was terrified, and I did my best. And flying in from flying in from the ceiling is something that is just inevitably going to kind of keep you on your toes. So that one was obviously special, playing a Broadway principle on stage, maybe for the only time ever in my life. Who knows? But yeah, that one was fun. I think my favorite though I I'm gonna have to say it was carbuckety, because I knew it the best I had made. I was allowed to make a little bit of choices at the beginning to make it a little personal, and you don't always get to do that as a swing. And cats was forgiving in that way most of the time. And it was, yeah, I really had a good time with that.

[16:28] Speaker 2: That's awesome. Yeah, now you become a dance the dance captain towards the end. Tell me about how that comes to life, and then what all like, I guess you covered seven cats, so you probably knew, already knew seven tracks. But what does that extra responsibility look like for you?

[16:44] Speaker 3: That extra responsibility for me at the time, was kind of going hand in hand with the amount of food I had on my plate as a swing so the evolution into dance captain for me kind of and I'm avoiding flattery because it wasn't a situation of flattery. I knew the most about a certain amount of cats, so it just made sense for me to become that we knew that the show was kind of closing soon. We had already gotten our closing notice, so I was there to just complete the tasks that needed to be done, and I got to put a couple of people in the show, which was really fun for me, because that is like a treat that a dance captain gets to do. And it was Old Deuteronomy, which also I didn't know that track. So getting to learn what he's up to the entire time is hilarious, because he dances a lot more than you think. And Nathaniel Stampley was a champion and dealt with me learning on the fly and teaching him and putting him into the show so fast that, yeah, it was, it was just a different type of responsibility, but something I was, well like prepared for in cats as a whole, by Kim Craven. She was amazing.

[17:57] Speaker 2: Do you have to be the one to break to Old Deuteronomy, that they have to sit there during intermission.

[18:03] Speaker 3: You know what? I think I did actually break that to Nathan Stampley, because he asked me in a rehearsal. And I was like, yeah, so this that's but I think he'd seen the show like, I'm sure people are like, assuming that it's just still a thing of me, because it is.

[18:20] Speaker 2: Yeah, I was not prepared for that. When I saw the show the first time, I thought it was a I thought it was a mistake. I thought because I saw a preview, and I really thought it was a mistake, or it was a product. And then that's fair. And I think it was is Q, is the one I saw. I think he moved this is actually up there. And then the second time I saw the show, they were like, people out there taking selfies and all kinds of stuff. And it's like, part of the whole experience. Yeah,

[18:46] Speaker 3: that was the goal. That was, like, apparently, a tradition that they started in the 80s with, like, Santa Claus at Macy's style ropes on stage, and, like, you could buy your prints at the front. So they wanted to recreate that. I had no idea that that was a thing. I too, was shocked when I first saw it. I thought, I'll do was taking a breather and that the swarm was happening. I was like, okay, no one's saying no. I guess this is,

[19:11] Speaker 2: yeah. I didn't know what it took to get I didn't get invited up. It's the like, you know, Instagram Tiktok version of the 80s Polaroid probably, but I was, yeah, I was just not prepared for that. But so I can imagine this dance captain having to like, be like, and by the way, you know that 15 minutes that you really enjoy after dancing for so long, you don't get them.

[19:33] Speaker 3: You don't get it. You know that sip of water that you want before you sing your big solo, you don't you can, yeah, exactly but q, before we I Q would move sometimes to get water. He would, like, very slow. He would do a great job. He would like, basically, like, stealth his way over to the corner, and he would get water because he deserved it. You know what? I mean, yeah,

[19:55] Speaker 2: it is a tough thing. You go, like, right into your your song, right? I

[19:59] Speaker 3: think. Yeah, opera, I mean, hey, crazy. Okay,

[20:03] Speaker 2: I want to you mentioned that you've rewritten the end of cat. So let's, I want to hear some of your your theories, your stories like, what other like craziness Can you provide being an insider?

[20:13] Speaker 3: Okay, well, I can say because I can't pick the cavity to win at the end of this, he can't be the cat that I choose. So one ending that I have rewritten is that the cast have a moment of true clarity, and they come together, and they're like, Wait, can we just convince this fool that he is the choice to go to the heavy side layer that way, the one plot point in this show can be wrapped up, like, just trick him into dying and he'll come back as a different cat, like that. Sounds optimal to me. So you're my main

[20:47] Speaker 2: theory. One theory is murder Macavity. So to get him out of

[20:57] Speaker 2: I can see that the one thing that this show misses, which is, what bothers me, is there's no conflict resolution, and I think that Macavity could provide that if you really wanted to. So your point is that Macavity, like, kidnaps his potential brother. I think that's the thing, and then he kind of just goes away, and it's like, All right, we'll just invite him again next year. Yeah,

[21:15] Speaker 3: there's no justice, and I feel that Justice must be served from a cavity. He does horrible things. He's a nuisance. He's breaking things. He's inspiring the youth in Aran in the wrong way, in my opinion. So I believe that he should be basically hoodwinked into

[21:33] Speaker 2: dying. Okay, so I like, that's one that's one good way. What else you got? Yeah,

[21:38] Speaker 3: I mean, that's pretty much it. There were so many like, I'm your grandma now, moments with Jenny. Any dots on stage, for some of the children that would, wouldn't really go anywhere, but I do believe there's something between pouncable and Jenny. Any dots, there's a special love connection, and it's, it's taboo because he is younger, but I think she's, I think she knows most

[22:00] Speaker 2: of your Jennys were also young, right? That

[22:04] Speaker 3: was the issue is that Eloise crop, who was like, yeah, a hot performer, and we love each other, and that just was, it's funny because Jenny, yes, typically is, like, the matronly type, and cast a little bit older, and Eloise was my age, and we would just create impossible storylines on stage and moments of absolute silence that people aren't privy to because we were facing upstage or something and they couldn't see but yeah, there were, there were a lot of moments that I feel like, if you like, pitched it quickly in a room full of writers that someone could pick up on it. But the only thing that I've been able to see it through to the end is the coup of Macavity. Okay, so,

[22:45] Speaker 2: but so you've got a potential love story with Jenny and pounceable. That's not an unwritten Who else, who else, who else is, like, kind of the This one's really not talked about a lot, but, you know, I think, I think I see some of that.

[23:01] Speaker 3: Alan so and CASS I think that they're both really bisexual, and I think that, or maybe even pan, I don't know what it is for them, but Cassandra is a queen to me, and just absolutely one of the greatest, like, most mysterious, most like, if you have a creative approach to cast. I feel like, you know the least about her, so just take it and run. But I think they could have something they're adult, and I think she's like, like, could Cougar him a bit.

[23:31] Speaker 2: She's supposed to be timeless. Like, the more I've learned about her, it's just like, she's just kind of, like, very mysterious and a little strange and kind of Yeah, okay, so when

[23:43] Speaker 3: she comes out of the pipe in the beginning, this is a note that Chrissy gave about Cassandra, or Cassandra. I just say Cass she comes out and her hand is like out in front of her eyes, and her foot is darting out into the back. And Chrissy says you should feel as though you can see 10,000 years into the future and also 10,000 years into the past. And to me, that is just the wackiest, like most, like epic no you can give about like, what does that mean? But sure,

[24:19] Speaker 2: I the every time I talk to somebody, I hear some like, just wild thing like that, where it's like, this is the direction, and it's like, I get it. It's really cool. It's really interesting. It's like, we're talking about cats, like we're talking about a cat. And it was like, we've got this one that's and we've got one murdering one, and we're talking about, hypothetically, trying to kill, like, hoodwink one, and we've got one where we've got a taboo, potentially family based older and younger cat here that are, they're getting together and right, there's just a lot going on. Yeah.

[24:56] Speaker 3: I mean, when you take the humanity out of and. A show, and you give it to a group of young professionals like myself and the cast that I was a part of, the world is your oyster. There were Mungo Jerry Tugger moments that I could talk about. Yeah,

[25:13] Speaker 2: keep going. I want to, let's, let's fill in as many of these as we can. Like, my goal is to try to solve the cat's family tree and all the other nuances, or even the, I call them the dotted lines. You know, they're not the family lines, but there's some dotted lines in there, for sure. So which other ones Am I missing?

[25:30] Speaker 3: Well, I don't know. I mean, I know that you know about Tucker and missopolies. If

[25:35] Speaker 2: you read any cats fan fiction, everyone knows about it. That's all out there. It's and

[25:41] Speaker 3: the dressing room was decorated with fan art that depicted that as well, which is beautiful. Yeah,

[25:47] Speaker 2: I've heard, so I've heard from both Jeremy and Tyler about the craziness I've, like, wanted them to, I kind of want to see it at the same time, like, I also maybe not sure I want to see the fan art that's coming with that. Yeah, that one's No, that one's very well known. That one's very well documented. Got its own, you know, togafol ease or toxophase, depending on how you want to say it. They got their own. Yeah,

[26:09] Speaker 3: they do. They're shipped, as they like to say, yeah. And I think, well, I know that there was something going on between skimble shanks and Jenny, any dots. There was a lot of there was a lot of romantic dotted lines there, and lots of moments of tension, because they were mom and dad, so they gave us a lot of good like blue collar miming moments in the background, where, if you're not watching it, you miss it. But it's a it truly was the three act play within the play of Cass was Jeremy Davis and Eloise crop, and it was amazing. And it changed. It evolved. It grew okay. It was okay.

[26:49] Speaker 2: So I that one makes sense, that one's always just like that. They're kind of, they look same color, like we can get, we can kind of

[26:58] Speaker 2: He's also the traveling on the road, come back in. Yeah, you know, make, I always had him as an uncle, though, like, so I guess I could get the uncle vibe. I guess I could fit still with Jenny.

[27:11] Speaker 3: Yeah, he gives uncle vibes. He's definitely a trucker, like, he's definitely gone on, on the road.

[27:16] Speaker 2: I this will, I just actually posted this, so this will come out weeks later from us recording this, but they did an MTA get people to Broadway kind of ad today, and they showed the original one. And, yeah, there's a Old Deuteronomy is laying on the ground, and I see this. I was like, you have an entire song, Hello Cat, about being on a train, yeah, and you don't put that cat in the picture on a train. It doesn't make

[27:43] Speaker 3: any sense. Like, what a miss. What am I? I agree. You have some one with the name the railway cat and their title. They

[27:50] Speaker 2: build a train in the song. And we're gonna take a picture on a train, and we want to have one cat. And let's all, let's take the one that just kills somebody at the end. Yeah, I don't get it. What a miss, what a mess. I'm gonna I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna be posting about that probably more than just, is there like a letter that you can write somebody about from, like, the 80s or 70s, whenever, whenever they, I think probably the 80s, when they, when they posted that picture, maybe 90s.

[28:19] Speaker 3: Yeah, you should that. That seems like it should be fixed in post or something. What about

[28:23] Speaker 2: one like rumor? I think I tried to tie together, and maybe you can tell me if I'm completely off, but I think there's a potential Grizz jelly busted for love triangle.

[28:36] Speaker 3: Gosh, Oh, okay. I mean definitely with you. Mean, of like, in the past,

[28:41] Speaker 2: in the past, yeah, pre, pre, this ball, in the sense that, in the sense that I think they, Grizz and jelly were friends, and then you can tell that jelly doesn't like her anymore. And my theory, no, no. My theory is, is that jelly and bus four were together, which was a rumor I think Grizz cheated on or like, bus for cheated on jelly with Grizz, and so it was okay. It was like cheating with his friend, or like, her best friend

[29:10] Speaker 3: snap. Oh yeah, I can totally see that. I mean, also, Grizabella enters right after bus first thing is done, or something like that in the show. So that is that a coincidence, or is she hot on the trails of her ex lover, who was being kindly greeted by jelly. Because, I mean, think about it, yeah, it's true. Grizabella is now an outcast, so, like, they don't have to worry about her. Yeah. And Buster always gave me mafia vibes in the first

[29:33] Speaker 2: place. Oh, I think Buster is the money behind McCabe's crime ring. Yeah?

[29:38] Speaker 3: And so, oh my god, wow. Actually, that just kind of blew my mind. I've never gone No, but that's, yeah, wow. That's great.

[29:46] Speaker 2: So this is things. This is all I think about with the show, these types of things, of the plot lines, not the dance numbers, or are you going in halfway through the injuries, or, you know, a rake stage, like all these things I'm learning about. I haven't thought a minute. It about any of those things until somebody in the cast tells me about it. I have thought about which cat could potentially be hooking up with, which cat and which one like. How does this How does this family fit together? Right,

[30:13] Speaker 3: right. Okay, well, I'm I need to hear more of your theories now, because I feel like that one makes I had the inkling of that obviously in the beginning, but that was fully evolved, and I feel like, maybe I could, like, connect more dots if I knew more theories. There's we had a lot of our own choices that we made that.

[30:36] Speaker 3: those are so, like, nondescript, and I don't even know if it was because it was just me, and those were the choices that I was making, and people were just going along it with it, with me, because I don't know, but, like, I think, well, syllabi and car Bucha, that was something that was the same any cat that you have to have sex with, and the Jellicle mom in the ball Yeah, and the ball Yeah, that you often then are, like, kind of paired with them and Alan

[31:04] Speaker 2: zone Victoria, right? Like, because they do their coming of age dance, play doh, yeah, Play Doh. Sometimes it's Alonzo in certain

[31:13] Speaker 3: they love to pick and plop, yeah, pull people in carbovid e doesn't exist half the time.

[31:19] Speaker 2: What about Victoria? Grizzle being Victoria's mom,

[31:24] Speaker 3: see, I believe somewhat in that. I also kind of believe more in the familial ties of bomb Grizz and Demeter. I feel like there's something going on there that there may be sisters, or that trio just seems iconic to me. They all wear red lipstick. They're all like Macavity girls. You can tell that something like Grizz must have been just like the Regina George, or something happened. I

[31:52] Speaker 2: love you said that because there's been so many shows that have been tied to this, and now you're bringing Mean Girls in, into into this show is another version, yeah. So I think that that one makes sense. It's definitely bomb. And Demeter being sisters is like, that's pretty known fact. And the other one that everyone keeps telling me is, like, it's universal truth that Demeter was raped from the gavy It's like, that's, that's the other like, known fact that everyone just like, accepts. It's,

[32:19] Speaker 3: yeah. And therein lies many issues with cats and humanity and the commentary that could be made. And I don't know, I mean, I that's what we were told for sure, that that was, that was her storyline. And it makes you, it makes you very sad for Demeter, and it makes you like, root for her. But there that's like, there is no justice for it,

[32:40] Speaker 2: and that's why you guys. Joe mccaviv At the end, yeah, he needs to

[32:45] Speaker 3: either be, like, trapped in a safe or something, or like, banished from, from the Jellicle Tribe forever. Yeah, to return

[32:53] Speaker 2: his song literally says that he's broken every human law, yeah, which is bad, crazy. I did have somewhere to think like, what? What laws do you think like, what's your favorite law? You think he broke Grand Theft Auto? Oh, sure. Okay. I was thinking more like, really bizarre things like, like, tax evasion.

[33:12] Speaker 3: I'm sure he wired a car. I Yeah, tax evasion, absolutely, but only of his owners. Like, he committed tax fraud for his owner. Yeah, because he needed a human alias.

[33:21] Speaker 2: So, okay, Grand Theft Auto, that's interesting. So he hot wired a car. Took an effort, yeah,

[33:27] Speaker 3: maybe multiple times. I mean, I feel like, I also feel like, probably like he could go to jail for, like, being an imposter, like identity theft. Oh,

[33:41] Speaker 3: slick, yeah? Because he leads the the numb nuts, the the children, the mango Jerry ruffle teaser to break the windows and do the like, feeling of pearls and stuff,

[33:58] Speaker 3: That's a bad one. Yeah, that's really messed up. He loves to like, well, he's really cocky. There's not many things that I really liked about him. I think that he's probably one of the most human characters in cats. Yeah, he has a lot of negative all of the other cats, for the most part, have a really positive words about them. They represent, like parts of humanity that we relate to, obviously, because it speaks to people in certain ways. But I think all of his qualities are horrible. There aren't any redeeming aspects

[34:32] Speaker 2: in the cavity, yeah, just get them out. Yeah. Who else? What other before we move to the next kind of rapid fire, what other, what other kind of pairings did we do? We not cover?

[34:46] Speaker 3: Well, let's see. I mean, Electra and pounciable are obviously, to me, they always had a sweet friendship because syllabub was too hot. She like wanted car Bucha D and Plato. She wanted the the older cats. Yeah, but I think the Electra And pounceable definitely have a sweet, like, tender, kindergarten type love for each other, and they may have also been brother and sister, but it's confusing in cast because I don't know. I do believe that they openly accept incest. In the cast universe, it seems there's, I'm just saying there's a lot of, like, skimbles, my uncle and my dad and like things that just like the family tree,

[35:27] Speaker 2: incestuous tribe. Yeah, for sure, yeah. I think, you know, you just overlooked that in the What about monk? Like, what's what's going on with him?

[35:36] Speaker 3: Monk, to me, I feel my favorite theory I heard about him was that he was, I think it was Grizabella son,

[35:48] Speaker 3: son, which makes her a lot older, which, in my mind, she's really not that old. She's kind of like, if she had people taking care of her, would still be a glamorous Yeah. But I thought it was interesting, because it makes monk younger in my mind, and he's it like falls into that, like care caricature of the young leading man. But monk, I don't know. I mean, that one is confusing to me. I should say it intrigues me, because it kind of erases the familial ties to bomb and Demeter, because that would make him related to Demeter, which would then again, create, like, a really messed up incestuous storyline. But is that true? Is Demeter monkey straps ant, and are we all just fine with it? Who knows?

[36:33] Speaker 2: It's possible. Okay, last, last one. Then I promise we'll move on. Um, I'm having a great are jelly and Gus actually doing anything together? Are they? Are they together? Are they just, like, is she really just caretaker? I

[36:47] Speaker 3: really believe that she just loves him. There's some thoughts behind like, maybe he's her grandfather, okay? Or like, dad or something, and she's just or like, truly just caretaker. Like they loved each other. You never know they had a lot of beautiful thoughts about that. I mean, I know Chris Garrett talked a lot about it. He's he was brilliant, and you could tell when he was, like, thinking of a different word. Or one day I remember he I was like, moved, which is not saying anything, because he's amazing. But when you see the show every day, sometimes you expect a certain choice, and Chris would always make the most beautiful and subtle choices, and I would always, I could tell that he was just, like, thinking about one day he told me he was thinking about Alzheimer's and how that's affecting Gus. And I'm like, oh my god, yeah, that made sense to me. Yeah, brilliant. So I think she's there as a caretaker, and I think she's there as like his advocate, his like root to the younger members of the tribe, because she's the one that encourages the kids to come up and give him a second chance and listen to his story, which turns out to be pretty racist, but he's an old he's a great old guy. You know?

[37:59] Speaker 2: Well, there's been a few cats canceled or over time,

[38:02] Speaker 3: unfortunately, Gus was canceled, but he, I don't know that he's entirely canceled. He

[38:08] Speaker 2: hasn't been fully canceled. There's been a couple that like legitimately been stripped from the show over the years. Wait, who have to look it up? I think they just renamed them honestly. Yeah, so the brow Tiger, that that whole thing has been a little problematic. We didn't do that one, yeah, the peaks and follicles and so that stuff is so, yeah, there's been a little bit. There also was the the wrapping Tugger, which I don't know if he was canceled, but it was definitely a decision that got, that got removed pretty quick. Yeah, I

[38:37] Speaker 3: don't necessarily know that that's inappropriate, but I do believe that it was a choice.

[38:43] Speaker 2: Okay, we've covered pretty much every cap, except for one. And I'm going to make you, I want to know, and I asked, it was Christopher. I want to ask is, What about Peter? What's Peter's story?

[38:54] Speaker 3: Peter? And as a dance captain, I feel like I actually know who Peter is, because you have to put Peter into the opening number. And Peter is him. Peter is just this like weird cat that shows up to do the opening number, and old dude has one as well. And in certain versions of the show, Grizabella has one as well. Baby Grizz. Baby Grizz. Yeah, it's bizarre. I don't know why they're meant to be in the opening number as people other than who they are or why they're in there at all, but yeah, Peter is, I would imagine that he's like a third tier member of the Jellicle Tribe. He shows up for the hay and then he does, like the Irish goodbye. He's the one, literally, during the naming of cats. Yeah,

[39:40] Speaker 2: Peter, yeah, yeah, I was not. I'm not. I'm a fan

[39:44] Speaker 3: Peter. Peter. I don't know much about other than that. He is an imposter.

[39:48] Speaker 2: Well, my my one, and this is very much not correct, but my thought for Peter could be is, is that if Peter and baby Grizz are dancing at the same time, maybe he. St Peter, and it's baby Grizz. Is Grizabella being reborn, coming back, and it's just like the ghost of catsmiths.

[40:09] Speaker 3: Wow, that's meta. That's like, deep cats. Meta,

[40:15] Speaker 2: that's and that would be my my cats too. That's my number one getting for cats too. I

[40:20] Speaker 3: do love that. I mean, that definitely is a very like, legit like, I'm gonna say, logical way to bridge the gap between cats one and cats.

[40:30] Speaker 2: Yeah, she has to come back and see all the like lives she ruined by being the choice.

[40:36] Speaker 3: Exactly. Gus is just shaking his little fisted paw towards the air like I'm gonna get your neck. And what

[40:43] Speaker 2: a better vessel than to do that, than Peter, the worst cat ever to be the exactly, take us around

[40:48] Speaker 3: the Voldemort of Cath, yeah, exactly.

[40:53] Speaker 2: Okay, let's go into some rapid fire, because otherwise we're gonna talk about other cats and sexuals like parents. For two more hours,

[41:03] Speaker 2: If you, you played a lot of the characters. So you've got, I mean, seven plus tracks, and you've, it's a dance captain treated more if you could do any like, any cat, male, female, anyone like, just one time you want to go on, which character would you want to

[41:19] Speaker 3: play skimble shanks? Honestly, I never got to do skimble shanks. And he has my favorite song in the show, and he hits the step. He really does a lot of the dance moves, and Jeremy Davis was fantastic. And I would I just, yeah, I feel like it would be so fun.

[41:34] Speaker 2: So that was my next question. His favorite song is skimble My favorite

[41:39] Speaker 3: song in act two. Let me split it up so that's a little bit more fair. I think my favorite song in act two has to be skimble shanks. It's just the pep that you did not know that you needed in the middle of cast. Yeah. Just really, like, we would even be on stage, like, actually, just like, losing our shit to it sometimes wakes you up. Okay? It does. Okay. The other thing I will say, so act one my favorite song is, I think it might be Buster Jones. Buster Yeah, again, just like light hearted, fun, goofy

[42:17] Speaker 3: yeah, everyone's on stage. It's fun. I like it, all right.

[42:24] Speaker 3: So my least favorite cat would have to be, oh, this is sad. This actually is sad. Okay, my least favorite cat, I think it's pouncable, just because he's just there to watch. You know what? I mean, he doesn't necessarily do anything to further the plot, and he doesn't necessarily do much that you would know about as a viewer to like, to stand out. And I performed it a lot of times, and had a great time performing it, but I think that's my least favorite cat, just because he doesn't, he didn't, he doesn't have a lot of things to bring to the table. He's so young. He's a kitten. He just, he's told what to do. He's he stands there, and he's like, told to behave the whole time. Yeah?

[43:09] Speaker 2: He's just like, don't, don't cry in the in the theater, yeah, yeah. Okay, exactly. What about favorite,

[43:18] Speaker 3: favorite cat? Period? Yeah. Wow. I really love can I combine the twins as one? Yeah, I think so. They're kind of I think the twins are my favorite cats. They they have the coolest storyline to me. I love their moves. I love like how they've furthered the plot along by dance with other cast by touch. And I thought that was so cool. I love it, such as, like, a random choice to have that was very well developed in the cast universe. It's

[43:53] Speaker 2: the one that, if I I didn't know enough about it, the times I've seen, I've seen it twice on stage performances, and I feel like, now that's the like, those are the ones I'm going to be seeking out to be like, All right, where are the twins? What's going on? Like, that's because it's such a unique storyline that I would have not picked up on, probably until I became a super fan and saw it. Like, way more times.

[44:13] Speaker 3: I agree it's and doing it too, you have, like, a really cool vantage points of the show, because I guess they're always meant to be watching and seeing things. So they're always kind of just chilling, looking fierce, observing things, and then they jump in and do the most epic dances. And yeah, there was really nothing I didn't like about that cat. That's awesome. Cat that's

[44:36] Speaker 2: awesome. Okay, so almost last Rapid Fire question. This episode will be coming out in December, so we'll be nearing the holiday season and Christmas season, and I want to know, which cat do you think would be overly into Christmas?

[44:55] Speaker 2: Like, which one has already? Because, you know, we're recording this in November. Like, which cat? Finished, put down Halloween decorations immediately, put it up and start playing. Jennifer

[45:06] Speaker 3: Lopez, I think it's gonna have to be jelly, Lorem jelly. Okay? I do think jelly is like full pumpkin spice latte, until Christmas is in season, and then I think she's like, hosting the ugly Christmas sweater party. I think that she's making the, like, hot treats for the cats, anti jelly. That's what we called her. So I get very like, She lives alone Christmas time. It's very fun for her vibe.

[45:31] Speaker 2: Okay, I could see that, yeah, I was thinking between bomb and Victoria, because I definitely find those. I think they're Tiktok influencers. And I could see this being like, okay, there's a lot of like things I can do to like, like, you said, pumpkin spice latte and getting through, getting their their Starbucks Christmas cup and stuff like that. Like, I could see them embrace I can see

[45:52] Speaker 3: that. I can totally see that. I can totally see specifically, the two of them being influencers, yeah, and being successful at that within the Cathy Mason world.

[46:03] Speaker 2: So the million dollar question, which is what I've argued at length, so I hope you know this is coming. I have argued that I don't think it was the right choice. Now, I know one of your theories is, let's kill McCaffrey and just be over with the show. But if your Old Deuteronomy, who are you picking and why?

[46:21] Speaker 3: Okay, here's what I'm doing. I'm picking nobody that's saying and campaign for themselves. I've got to give it to my girl, CASS I think Cassandra has obviously been here for a very long time. She doesn't put on a show, she doesn't like, require that you give her her attention. She just, like, kind of low key demands it. And I think that the misstep in granting Grizabella what should just be like, common courtesy and friendship, like we don't have to put on that big of a pedestal. I think Cassandra has lived 9000 years waiting for this moment, so ultimately she has to be my choice.

[47:02] Speaker 2: I love I love that. I don't think anybody's made a cast argument yet.

[47:07] Speaker 3: Yes, amazing. I'm shocked, though I really feel like it's a dead ringer. But well, Gus is the number one choice.

[47:15] Speaker 2: Usually guess the common argument.

[47:18] Speaker 3: So here's my question, Will Gus die if he's not chosen, that's just be dead forever, like that's the

[47:27] Speaker 2: hard part, if you ask Vera was the one who ruined everyone's Gus argument by saying, I didn't even think he had another life to live. So if he died, he died. So that was why he didn't really want to go. I think that's just very, very trying to justify him not getting picked every night, though?

[47:45] Speaker 2: that that's like the that is, the question is, generally, it really, like, the whole thing boils down to, and I think you covered it, of who's the most deserving, like, and what's the criteria that is makes it most deserving? So if Old Deuteronomy is saying, like, I don't care about the singing, that's not my criteria. It's just who I think is older and wise and deserves. And it's probably between gray as Gus and Cass and maybe like one or two other choices. Yeah, I

[48:14] Speaker 3: don't really think bus the first stands a chance, and I think that he shows up as a distraction knowing that he has too many ties on Earth to lead this life yet, namely, in the cast mafia, the feline mafia, but I he's

[48:28] Speaker 2: gonna get killed at some point, like he's gonna get he'll make a wrong step, and someone will come for him, type of thing, like soprano stuff. So

[48:36] Speaker 3: I think that's how Buster will meet his end. And then Jenny, I think Jenny is actually not ready. I think she wanted to do a big old tap dance number and, like, show the kitties how it was done. But I do believe Jenny wants to stay mainly for skimble, because I don't believe

[48:53] Speaker 2: that skimbles, right? You said it was pouncable, or maybe, maybe possible. So she's, she's not ready to go, because she's got, she's got her young, but keeping her, yeah, busy. She

[49:03] Speaker 3: has eggs in the basket. I will say, Yeah,

[49:07] Speaker 2: Jenny's a Jenny's another interesting one, because there are some, some thought, like, you could make that argument too, because she's supposed to be on the older side and but the arguments always like, she keeps everything in order. Yeah, she

[49:19] Speaker 3: definitely was like, she we can't. We would not function without Jenny. She's so important. I'm all for CASS

[49:25] Speaker 2: I think that's a great choice. I think that, thank you. A ton of sense. She's still

[49:30] Speaker 3: witchy. I just feel like it, yeah, it would make I would if they gave her maybe a little bit more in the show to let us in on the fact that she's been around for a long time. Think it would be really satisfying to see her fly away

[49:45] Speaker 2: at the end. If you So, if America voted, yeah, or the audience votes like, let's say we give the audience a clicker at the end and we pause the show. How do you think that? How do you think everyone would.

[50:02] Speaker 3: Oh, well, I think we would have to give specific choices. I think that, I think that it's too broad to really know, but I think that the majority of the people would pick Old Deuteronomy because he's like, the big old cat. And I think that they would just be like, Oh yeah, him, but Gus, I feel like Gus, to me, is the the obvious, if you're watching the show, he's, like, the heart wrenching choice. Yeah,

[50:27] Speaker 2: I think Grizz actually has a chance if you do it that way, because you'll just finish memory, right, right, and you get that kind of power ballad and see somebody amazingly belt it out. Like, every time someone does it, it's like, it's unbelievable. Oh,

[50:40] Speaker 3: and Mamie Paris, maybe was just incredible, slayed us all every night. She never missed. She never like, she never faltered. She's a machine, but also emotional and like she never, yep, professional. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm a huge Mamie Paris fan. I think that Grizabella, the I think she deserved, after touching the cats, I think she deserves to stay with us, right? He's always like, no, let's hug on her. Let's like, keep her. Let's send Gus, Let's all celebrate. That would be so satisfying, but, yeah, I don't know why. I really don't know why they chose Graz. I

[51:17] Speaker 2: appreciate having somebody that has this much experience in the show, agreeing with me and sticking with that this is the wrong creative choice. By Andrew Weber, no,

[51:35] Speaker 2: you should not say that as someone who works in the industry and could potentially be in any one of his shows. I can say that as someone who's never going to be on stage in any Broadway show, so if he gets mad at me, it's totally fine. He's not going to let me write cats too. Anyways, I have no

[51:50] Speaker 3: no. I think all opinions are welcome, and cats is such a like a playground for opinion and creative extrapolation. So I yeah, I agree. I have to

[52:00] Speaker 2: assume, when you write a show with this loose of a plot, that your goal is to spark some of this conversation. So I think he has to appreciate it.

[52:07] Speaker 3: I think it's what's kept the show relevant. Is because they've never really given us the apple to take a bite out of on why did they really make the show like why did they really lots of music could have been. I mean, the time was right for that. And honestly, I feel like the show goes to that level. Sometimes you're like, how could you really think of this if you weren't in some altered state of mind?

[52:37] Speaker 2: It does. It is the number one question is, do you recommend to like, when friends come to see it to be intoxicated, or on some other alter state of mind? Or should they come in that's over, right?

[52:51] Speaker 3: I always say, have a drink. If you're a drinking type of person, drink it cats. You'll have a great time. I wish someone would

[52:59] Speaker 2: have told me that the first time I saw it, I saw a matinee on a Saturday, and no one told me that, and I was sober and not at all aware of what I was walking into. So it was

[53:11] Speaker 3: that's a wake up call. A sober cast is definitely a wake up call, yeah,

[53:14] Speaker 2: a sober cats not knowing what cats is about at all, is allow, yeah,

[53:22] Speaker 3: and you were, like, you were an adult when it happened, 2016

[53:25] Speaker 2: I just moved to New York. Wow. I had never seen it. I only lived in the city for like, a couple weeks at that point, and I was given preview tickets. And I was like, Yeah, this shows been around forever. Like, why not? I like, I like seeing theater, like, I like musicals, like, I like live events. It's, to me, I go to a lot of sporting events, like I said, But to me, we've seen Broadway shows. You're seeing, it's like watching professional athletes. You're seeing the best of the best do something that's incredibly hard and talented, like, it's something that most, not most, like, majority of people can't do at all, and so I appreciate that, like I really enjoyed that, but I was not prepared for what I saw. I wish I would had some warning.

[54:10] Speaker 3: That's fair. I mean, everything you just said is fair. It's and Cass is one of those shows. Sometimes it's really rewarding based off of how much effort you actually have to put into it, to be in it, and to, like, be healthy while you're in it. But every now and then, someone comes to the show and would live for the performances that they were getting, and they would come to the stage door and talk about it, and that's enough. You know what I mean? Like, we were definitely up there doing it, mainly because we love it, but also because other people love it. And I think that is like the engine of cats, yeah, especially when you're in it, the people that are coming to see it kind of keep you going, yeah, there's

[54:50] Speaker 2: a group they'll come in costume and oh yeah, we

[54:54] Speaker 3: loved we encouraged it, we we welcomed that, because it was a safe space. For people who love cats, love it, who needs come? Yeah. Well, this

[55:04] Speaker 2: has been eye opening. I definitely I now need to, I think we got to update the there's a rumor mill cats Wikipedia fan page, and I've promised that I've not actually done it yet, but I feel like I need to update all the rumors that I have either created or have heard, and now I need to add Jenny and pounceable to that room, realist, because I don't think that's

[55:23] Speaker 3: on there. Yeah, that one's, I hope that one's a hot topic, that one's gonna be confusing across the board for everyone. I

[55:29] Speaker 2: love it. Anytime we can add to these dotted lines, it's great. And then you're gonna get some you're gonna get one person to be like, There's no way. And it's like, well, we talked to pouncable,

[55:38] Speaker 3: and you'll be like, there honestly is no way you're right, because it's cat

[55:50] Speaker 3: You can follow me on Instagram at Tanner Ray Wilson. It's my name. Easy to find. Follow at your own risk. That's all I'll say.

[55:59] Speaker 2: Amazing. Well, thank you so much for coming on and humoring me through all this and enlightening me on all kinds of stuff and making a different Jellicle choice. It's been fantastic. Thank

[56:10] Speaker 3: you for having me. It is so fun to get to talk light heartedly and creatively about cast that's someone who did it in the stories of it. Thank you for having me. It's been really fun. Yeah,

[56:23] Speaker 2: I'm here to bring a different perspective to the show than the hard hitting news that comes out about cats all the time. I

[56:30] Speaker 3: can't believe we didn't talk about the movie at all. So maybe we have to do a part

[56:34] Speaker 2: two. Oh, I yeah, we'll save that for another day. We can do a part two. I Okay. Well, thanks for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died, the podcast breakdown of the catastrophe. To follow along. You can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, at the wrong cat died, or check out our website, the wrong cat died. You.