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[0:00] Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ariana Grande, Hi, I'm Cynthia Erivo, and you're listening to the Broadway Podcast Network. Visit vpm.fm to discover more.

[0:13] Speaker 2: There's a cat over here. There's a cat over there. I'm the wrong one died. I'm the wrong one died. I welcome

[0:30] Mike Abrams: to the wrong cat died the podcast breakdown of cats atrophy. I'm your host, Mike Abrams, and today we have another amazing guest. She is currently Victoria on the US national tour, six of cats and performing right now. So welcome, hello, Perillo, and thank you for joining me. Hello, thank you for having me. I am excited. You're the first person on this new cast that I've gotten to talk to. So you are currently performing like you were talking in the morning, and you performed last night, and are performing tonight. So you're in the thick of things right now doing it. So before we talk about your kind of current tour, tell me a little bit about your history with the show. When was the first time you saw it? You know? What was your experience with it?

[1:10] Speaker 3: The first time I saw the show was on the VHS tape from way back when, and I remember watching it a lot as a child, and I remember trying to do the white cat solo, and my leg just couldn't get there. And I was like, wow, but I thought it was so cool at first I was scared, because the eyes as a child, you're like, oh my gosh, this is kind of scary, but that was my first experience with cats, just watching it on the VHS and being totally in love with the dancing and all the characters.

[1:44] Mike Abrams: So okay, so this is that movie comes out in 1998 Yes. How old are you when you're seeing that?

[1:50] Speaker 3: I think I was about eight or nine, and I was born in 99 so Okay,

[1:57] Mike Abrams: so you see, yeah, so you, you're still, you're still, like, dusting off a VHS player, VHS player at that time. Like, you don't have the VCR open, and you're, you're playing it, okay, so you're seeing the you're seeing the video, eight or nine years old as a dancer like I was, you know, you have to be to do this role. And so that was kind of your your cue. Did you see it on stage before going on tour at all.

[2:23] Mike Abrams: no, wow, okay, that's okay. So I'm now, I'm fascinated because so you've seen this, you know, this movie, it's a slightly different production than what you what you do. How are like, lock me through what you were told and prepped. Like, you know this, this tour starts back up. How are you given the backstory of your characters? How do you learn the show, not just the dancing of the show and the numbers and everything, but how do you learn this is what's going on.

[2:52] Speaker 3: The lovely Chrissy Cartwright, who's been working on this since the beginning of cats, tells us and briefs us on what all of our characters mean and what the show actually is, because people think that there's not a plot, because it's chaotic all of the time, especially with the revival, there's a lot of new elements involved. So she kind of breaks down what everything means and how everything connects, and what Grizabella, why she's there, and why all these cats have features, and why Victoria is prevalent to the story, and why all of these characters prevalent, and how, like, what a Jellicle cat is. So that's how we were prepped to do the show. But, yeah,

[3:35] Mike Abrams: wow. Okay, so you get this, like, from Chrissy, you get the whole rundown. Yes, what is, what does she tell you as Victoria's backstory? And then, more importantly, how much did you piece together of that when you watched the video, did you catch any of what she told you?

[3:50] Speaker 3: Um, I did and I did not. Um, I just thought Victoria was this beautiful dancer, but she actually breaks down that Victoria is a kitten. I did not know that. I just thought she was a cat. You can't really tell with the makeup and the characters, but she's a kitten. She's romantic, innocent, unselconscious, and she's actually finding her sexuality. The original Broadway production is very sexual. We've broken it down more into a more production kind of piece with the revival, which keeps to the original. But so Victoria is very finding herself and discovering what it means to be feline and feminine, and her fearlessness kind of connects into why she touches Grizz at the end, but I had no idea. I just thought she was this beautiful white cat. And I think a lot of people don't quite connect the story with who Victoria is. They just see her as a dancer, and they see her touch grids, and think of her as this like white savior complex, in a way. But I've made my own head come. Times to make that connect better. But when I was watching the video, and then I Chrissy was telling me my story, I had no idea. I had no idea, that's what it was, which I think is why the audience is like, why is this white cat doing all of this stuff? But it makes, it makes sense when Chrissy tells a story.

[5:19] Mike Abrams: Yeah, so you just said that you you have some head cons to, like, tie things together. Can you? Can you share those? Like, what have you kind of added to this?

[5:28] Speaker 3: Okay, mine's, I don't know if anyone has has ever had the same head con as I, but I believe that Victoria was reborn from the heavy side layer. There's a lot of fandom that believes that she represents the Jellicle Moon, which she does, just to clarify that she does represent the Jellicle moon that all of the cats are obviously drawn to. There have been some like rumors that she's Grizabella as child, love child, but I tried to connect that, but it also didn't make sense, because Grizabella is just, in my opinion, kind of older, and this white, brand new white kitten. And just like trying to connect that, and I was like, I think the being reborn from a heavy slide layer makes more sense, and that's why Old Deuteronomy is so fascinated with her. And then throughout the story, there are times that we're hissing at Chris and we're just Grizz and just upset that she's there. But for me, when I'm on stage, I'm curious. I'm like, Why is she here? Like, I'm not actually hissing at her. I'm just like, trying to peek around the corner and be like, Who is she and why does she keep showing up? Because I'm the curious one along with solo Bob. But I'm like, Huh, why is she here? And then when I go to touch Grizabella, who's played by the lovely Taylor Harris, love her. We are both women of color. And this is one of the first times that two women of color and prominent roles are together. So my head con is that even though there are these rumors of a white savior complex, I am in my own skin as the white cat, and I am another person of color lifting up another person of color to bring her off into a better life, into the heavy side layer. So those are some of my little head cons I like to play with, with my story. So that

[7:15] Mike Abrams: is a couple things I hadn't heard before. I had not heard the reborn from the heavy side layer. It is pretty well documented. The that Grizz being your mom is, like, one theory. So I was gonna ask you about that, so you don't play it that way. You don't think that that's possible.

[7:31] Speaker 3: Sometimes I do and sometimes I don't. Depends on, like, what I'm feeling for the show, just to keep me interested, but it also just for me to connect it and how some of our cast mates also connect our characters to each other. I just personally cannot connect that I am Grizz love child. For some reason, there's just something in me that's just like, I just can't I just, I just think the being reborn from the heavy side air makes sense, because Old Deuteronomy is just so fascinated on why she turned out so pure white, and that represents the Jellicle moon. So there's, like, the heavy side layer the Jellicle moon. She came out pure white. She represents this. So it kind of connects that for me, interesting.

[8:11] Mike Abrams: I really like it. I just had never thought about that way. I think I spent more time trying to think about the family tree, yeah. So that's why I'm like, yeah, it could be mom. You could be monk, could be dad, you know, like, who else? Like? Because that's the other rumor. But that's, I think that's really interesting, is that that is so you think you were last year's choice? Yes, and then you are, this is your coming back to the tribe as big reborn. Yeah, I love it. That's an answer I've my. One of my big questions is always been, who was picked last year? Who's picked next year? Yeah, and you've now answered potentially one of those. I know

[8:47] Speaker 3: there's a lot of rumors of or theories that syllabus was because she's the youngest, which makes sense, in a way, so it there's always that bounce back between all of the cast mates and I on, like, who, who came out last? Like, was it me? Was it so above who? Like, how does this connect? We love to play little head con games with each other. Yeah.

[9:10] Mike Abrams: And so I think, like, I mean, I've slowly started to figure out explain head con to someone who's maybe not a theater person. I

[9:17] Speaker 3: actually didn't know what a head con was until theater this year, a head con is kind of a story you play within yourself and with other characters to make, to do, to develop your own story. It might not really we try and hope that it relates to the audience, but if it makes sense to us, then it will relate to the audience. So it's kind of like a little story you play in your own head to further your acting into your role. Yeah.

[9:41] Mike Abrams: And so I it's so fascinating to me, because when I first got to, like, there's a cast Wikipedia fan page and the head con like section is, I just kept calling the rumor mail. This is a rumor mail. Like, this is all this crazy rumor mill stuff, and there's stuff that's in there and stuff that's not in there, and it's. Exactly that, though it's in a show like this, where there is, yes, there's a plot, as you mentioned, but it's loose. It's a light plot. There is a lot of room for interpretation of, like, things that are going to be unanswered, unless you're Chrissy, right? Unless you're, you know, like, one of the five people in the world that can, like, probably actually answer those, right? Yes. I love it. So you were, here's my other kind of thing. I wanted to ask you a little bit about because, you know, you talked about how sexual the like, the nature of your like, your role is. Did you recognize any of that as a 10 year old? And how like were you? How surprised were you when you kind of got the role and started, like, hearing kind of, oh, this is what this is.

[10:38] Speaker 3: Um, I did not. I did not see that as a 10 year old. Obviously, as a 10 year old, you're not really, you don't, you're not sure of what sexual things are yet. I mean, you know, women go through puberty early on that stage, but we're still learning. So I had, I had no, no idea. I just thought she was doing this beautiful Adagio, like solo. And then when Chrissy told me, she was like, No, you're having you're having a moment with yourself. You're having a moment with yourself, like, it's beautiful. But the reason why you're like, scratching yourself and then you go up into a split is because you're feeling all of the feelings that you've never felt before, because you're now entering into this teenage kind of puberty level. And I was like, oh, in the rehearsal process. I was like, Okay. And then Kim Craven, who worked with Andy blank Bueller, and who is that, I think, the associate choreographer. I don't really know the professional terms for each role, I just, I just looked at, look at them as all of my directors. She was giving me notes on it as well, and she said the same thing. And I was like, what? I was like, I just thought I was lifting my leg and then going into a split and then being like little cat. But no, it's, it's much more in depth and much more sexual than I thought as a 10 year old. Yeah.

[11:53] Mike Abrams: I mean, that's the thing that I think this whole show is a lot more sexual and a lot darker than I realized, even watching it as an adult, I mean, I never saw the I mean, I didn't even know there was a VHS tape to watch growing up, I was not, I was not part of this world until 2000 I don't know 1819, when I started this. So I didn't know any of this stuff. And so when I saw the show in 2016 none of that. I didn't recognize it. I didn't recognize it. I was like, same thing. I'm like, oh, that's some really impressive dance. I can't do that. My leg doesn't go that way. Yeah, and, but I didn't even think about it. And then all of a sudden you start, like, watching the show in detail. And you start, like, really looking at it's like, oh, she's having, she's having her moment. Oh, it looks like they're basically doing it on stage. Oh, the the ball is an orgy. Like, yeah, literally, it's, I mean, it's just every single thing starts getting, like, just slightly weirder and more sexual every time. I kind of learn more. So I always it's so fascinating, because it's such a, like, your role is such a dance. Like, it's, it's dancers, you know, it's like, you're, you're, it's not always the Broadway person. It's usually someone that has a very, you know, technical dance background. And so it is kind of that unique thing of where you probably haven't been, like, there's some people that I've talked to, they've been in the cast who are, like, their theater through and through, you know, they, yeah, they, they know every part of this, and they're like, oh, yeah, of course, I recognize some of that, you know, when I watched it as a teenager or later. And, you know, because they watched the VHS probably, you know, burn through them, watch them like, 1000s of times, and I'm sitting there going, like, No, I had no idea that Demeter was abused, you know, like, that's how am I supposed to pick that up? And when I can't even tell you who Demeter is, the first time I saw it,

[13:37] Speaker 3: yeah, I had no idea any of the characters. I just knew there was a white cat. I knew that there was a gummy cat, like all of the features that say their names. I was like, Cool. And then I had no idea Grizabella was, quote, unquote, macavities prostitute either. There was that. I was like, I just thought my cavity was just like a bad guy, like in every story, I didn't know there's actually like a story with him either. So it's just very interesting to see how cats unfolds.

[14:02] Mike Abrams: Yeah. And so I think I want to go back to one of your head kittens, which is you being last year's choice. So that's how you tie together, picking almost next year's choice. Like, that's why you reach out to her first

[14:12] Speaker 3: that, yeah, because it's something so familiar to me, somewhere deep seated within my soul, I guess I would say that. Like, I'm like, Why? Why are we being so mean to her? Like, why? Why can't we just accept her? Why can't we just there's just something drawing me to her, and I think that's why people think that she is my mother, because I'm just so drawn to her. And they think it's like a biological draw, which, in a way, it is, but it's more of like a heavy side layer, like Jellicle Moon draw for me. Like, I'm like, I'm more drawing it from, like, the energy that I'm feeling, from what I felt from being reborn and stuff like that. So that's why,

[14:47] Mike Abrams: okay, I want to ask you another question, because this, again, this is a theory I've not thought about it, which is great. What this will get to our final question. So I don't want to, like, get too deep into this, but what. What do you think was your Have you thought about your rationale of why you were picked last year? Then I

[15:05] Speaker 3: have not thought that deep into it. That's gonna make me think. Because whenever I think of cats, I just think of, like, the same production over and over and over again. You don't think of like, what was the Jellicle Ball like last year? Grizz Vella didn't come last year. Like, things like that. I feel like Victoria, in a way, is a crossover of the sweetness of like a jelly Lorem and Gus story, but also the fearlessness of a bomb Valley arena. So whoever was a mix of that last year, who was reborn or who was sent out to the heavy side there, I feel like is why Victoria came out pure, innocent, romantic, but so fearless and drawn to choose the next year choice, if that makes any sense, it

[15:46] Mike Abrams: does, yeah. I mean, completely. So it's like, you know, it was your time, because you are the ready to go, you know, older Gus ish type of story, but also with, you know, a little edge, so you get picked and then you come back as this, you know, the kitten version of that between the two, which is why you're not afraid to go touch Roosevelt first. Yes, so fascinating. I think this is my why I still am 70 plus episodes into the show. Time I talked to somebody new, I'm like, I never considered, I've actually spent a lot of time thinking about next year's choice, but no time thinking about last year's choice. Yeah, interesting. So now I'm gonna, now I'm gonna be sitting here thinking all day being like, all right, who would I pick last year, right? Although maybe you can't really do that. Maybe it's a cat that doesn't end up in the tribe. Like, maybe it's a, maybe it's a totally different cat, yeah,

[16:38] Speaker 3: and, I mean, we've had to cut several cats to from the show, even throughout the years. So it could have been one of those like that. True. It

[16:48] Mike Abrams: could be street Tugger. Yeah, rapping. Tugger was picked. He was picked there. He was picked multiple years ago. There's one other rumor that I don't think like I'm curious if you've ever kind of thought about it this way, but it's that your character is either mute or deaf. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, I don't know where it comes from. I think it's because you don't sing like you don't have a lot, and then maybe that's in certain productions that there's just no lines. And so that's part of it.

[17:15] Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess. I mean, I think I don't know about death, maybe mute, I mean, because she does intently listen to memory. And there are some moments in memory that Victoria kind of turns her head and she's like, Oh, that sounds familiar. Like, or like, what? Oh, what is that? Because I remember Chrissy giving me some like ideas on, like, how to react, instead of just sitting there and watching Grizabella do memory every night. So like, there are moments like, when she, like, mentions happiness. Like, I'm like, Oh, I know what that is, because I'm a kitten, or, like, memory. And I'm like, for some reason that like, is familiar to me or is foreign to me, depending on the night. Maybe mute. I do say a few lines with like, a group. And I know in the 1998 production they, she did have some lines, so I don't know that's that's a very interesting theory on Victoria. Yeah, it's

[18:06] Mike Abrams: in the head canon rumor rail page. But it's also like, if you watch the new movie, she's the whole like story, like she's the, essentially the eyes you see it through. So it's not the best river, but is one that's popped up a couple times, and so I didn't know Mute. Mute makes more sense than death with you. And I think it's just, it seems almost like an easy out because of the dancing numbers. Like, it's dancing heavy, it's

[18:30] Speaker 3: so hard. I am not going to lie, the dancing is hard. I can't, like, I try, try to sing through everything, but I'm like, handy blankie viewers, really making the white cat, like, run marathons here, same with tanta mile. I mean, tantamount things, I'm like, I can't, I can't imagine if Victoria had, like, a So, bub, same track, which I know that still above and Victoria are actually a cut track, so they're like a split track, yeah. So

[18:57] Mike Abrams: tell me a little bit more about that. Like, what was that experience? I mean, we've talked, we've talked now through all the craziness of the plot, but talk like, what is the like? How it seems, as someone who knows nothing about dance, it seems extremely difficult and extremely technical and like, very challenging. Like, what is that rehearsal and practice and like? Was it harder than you expected. Was it, like you just said, it's, it's daunting, like challenging, but what is, what is the doing this each night, like, um, it's like

[19:28] Speaker 3: running a marathon. I will not lie. Um, they say that the Jellicle Ball gets easier. They lie. It is, does not get easier at any time. Um, and since, like with the revival, things have changed. They added more, like, a little bit more featured roles for Victoria, just so she's not, like, sitting around and like getting cold, just so she can keep her body warm. There are moments on stage that you kind of have to be like, Okay, I'm gonna breathe here. I'm gonna take it easy here. I don't need to go balls to the walls. But. Just, just, just so I can prepare for the Jellicle Ball. But it's, it's actually quite fun. I love a challenge. I love because I'm a runner, outside of dance, I love to run. I love the constant cardio. I love long running. So it's, it's, it's, it's a lot. It's a lot every night. But hey, it keeps me in shape.

[20:24] Mike Abrams: So you are, I mean, you're doing, are you doing eight shows a week? Still, basically, yeah, and it's the one thing that I also didn't know until this podcast was about a rake stage. Are you doing rake stage in certain times or No,

[20:38] Speaker 3: no, not for us. I mean, we're in a different venue every week. So sometimes our stage is smaller, which is difficult, and sometimes it's sometimes the flooring is a little creaky because of the flooring that we're on, depending on, like, where we are, so it's a little difficult, even without a rake. I mean, I can't imagine dancing on a rake. I heard so many things about a rake. Claire told me last night that, like doing the Victoria solo on a rake stage is the worst. I can't imagine. I

[21:09] Mike Abrams: didn't, I didn't know, I mean, like I when I learned what that was, it kind of blew my mind, because it's seems so difficult flat, let alone doing it on an angle, and it's in and it's and then there's so many injuries, it seemed that comes from this.

[21:23] Speaker 3: There are quite a few injuries that come from just going hard every night, especially with cats. You're you're crawling, and then you're sitting, and then you're dancing really hard, and then you're sitting more, and then you're crawling. But thank goodness, thank goodness for my athletic trainer, and thank goodness for Pilates, because without it, I'd think my body would literally fall apart. I'm very, very, very self conscious on my, like, longevity of my career, so I like try throughout the day to, like, make sure I'm doing something to keep my body going. So I'm not just doing a show every night, just so, like, my body's like, Okay, you're moving, you're moving, you're moving, you're doing a show. You sleep, you're moving, you're moving, you're moving, you're doing your show and sleep, and then you're doing rehab, so that that helps me get through the shows, sometimes 1011, shows a week on a split week.

[22:12] Mike Abrams: Insane, absolutely insane. Um, there's one other piece I wanted to quickly go back to, that, are you? Are you involved in green eyes? And what is your take on green eyes?

[22:23] Speaker 3: What is green eyes the

[22:26] Mike Abrams: beginning, the beginning of the show, where you go, where everyone goes out and scares the living daylights out of children.

[22:31] Speaker 3: We don't crawl into the audience or anything. You don't get to do that. I know we are so sad. We don't get to go into the audience that, like, throughout the rehearsal process, they did brief us on, like, what each character would do or what they did before the pandemic. Um, but we haven't been able to do that, because every single time we think we're getting over a COVID surge, a new outbreak happens.

[22:56] Mike Abrams: So makes a ton of sense. I didn't even think about that. I just know that that's, like, a traumatizing piece

[23:02] Speaker 3: of the show. Yeah, it's so crazy, because I know that Old Deuteronomy used to come from, like, the audience, and now, and like, I used to greet him, but now I'm just sitting in the wing waiting for him to walk on stage, and I'm, like, looking at the wing like an idiot, but, yeah, it's, it's, I'm kind of sad we don't get to come through the audience. I think I don't, I don't know if I'd feel that comfortable being comfortable being that close to people's faces, though, yeah,

[23:27] Mike Abrams: the minute you said, I'm like, Oh, that makes a ton of sense. That's probably a really good idea, because like you don't want to have like you, you're not going to be masked. Hopefully everyone else is, but you're not going to you're going to be close, to be like, that's an unnecessary risk to take, but it is a traumatizing part of the show is that it starts with eyes flashing in front of everyone's face. Oh, dear. I would scares people like none other. And so I'm always kind of curious if that's a like, people have been punched. People have, like, literally, had people scared. Like, I just, I didn't even think about that. And Old Deuteronomy used to sit during intermission on stage. Is he still doing

[24:04] Speaker 3: that? They he doesn't sit the entire time. I know I was talking to Claire last night, and I think Q, who played Old Deuteronomy on Broadway, he sat there the entire time. And I don't think that was he wanted to. He wanted to sit there. He didn't have to, but he wanted to. He wanted to meditate. He wanted to sit there the entire time. But in the lacI, oh, he doesn't go out to, like, five minutes to places, and he just, like, walks on and then he sits down. He doesn't, he's not on there the entire time,

[24:35] Mike Abrams: yeah, because q sat there that threw, like, threw me off because I like, the, you know, the lights come on. And I was like, why is he still like? It took me a second to be like, because he's actually still there. Is that a prop? Yeah. And he sat there the whole time. And then the second time I saw it, people went up and took pictures with them, yes. And then, then he, like, he starts the second act. And so I was like, how does he sit there for 15. In 20 minutes, no water, no nothing, and then immediately start singing. I

[25:04] Speaker 3: don't know how he did it. I think what Claire told me is that he just loved to meditate. He loved to be in his own zone and in his own head during that time. And just like, be in character while people are coming up to him and stuff like that. And just to like, be like, kind of Old Deuteronomy and meditation. Yeah, yeah. I can imagine, I can't imagine just sitting up there for 20 minutes. I need my break. I need my I need my snack. I need my water.

[25:32] Mike Abrams: Yeah, as I say, it's such a physical and demanding show that it's like, you don't get a lot of times. I mean, I guess unless you're grace, because Grizz is a 15 minute, like, extremely emotional, like, 15 minutes on stage, yeah, but almost everyone else is on, yes, running and dancing and moving for for two hours and 45 minutes or whatever. You know, it's like, yeah, it's a long time. And

[25:57] Speaker 3: I didn't even know that Old Deuteronomy. I didn't know in the revival, they had him dance with us, which is kind of funny. It was, it was, it's really cute to see this big, fluffy guy, just like, doing all the movement with us. But, um, I had no idea until the rehearsal process, and I'm just like, dang, I could not do that in that big, heavy, like, 30 pound, like, suit I would I'm already sweating in my, like, very, very thin unitard. I could not do that. Yeah,

[26:20] Mike Abrams: wow. I hope you're having a Jellicle Ball. We'll be right back after this quick break. Okay, I want to go into the rapid fire, and then I want to debate the Grizabella debate with you. Okay, if you were not Victoria, who would you want to play like, if you could do one track, any male female, forget, if you're capable of doing it, if it's in a vocal range or whatever, just if you could just say, I have all that ability for one night. Who would you want to do? Oh,

[26:48] Speaker 3: I have two, bomb ballerina and Plato. Okay, I think bomb ballerina is badass, I will always think. And she's my roommate. I think she's badass. And then Plato obviously switching roles of my opposite and I know Aden Pressel, he and I have been friends forever and partners forever, and I think it just be cool to just lift Vic all night. I think super cool.

[27:13] Mike Abrams: Okay, so Plato is the one that you do your your dance, because it's changed over the years. It's not always play. Doh, Oh, really.

[27:20] Speaker 3: I mean, there is an ad meters on the other tours, I guess. But I think Plato and admiss are the same character to me,

[27:26] Mike Abrams: yeah, Alan, so is occasionally the other 100. I didn't know that. It just, there's 40 years. So it could have just been that there was not a, you know, a Play Doh, or there might have not have been this, or they just renamed them. So it could just, you know, this again, this is, goes back to the head canon rumor mail page, a ton, yeah, okay, yeah, that would be fun. So not Demeter, though, a badass bomb, yeah, and your counterpart, yeah,

[27:53] Speaker 3: I don't think, I mean, Demeter would be great, but I think she's a little too crazy for my personality,

[27:59] Mike Abrams: little skittish, a little challenging again, goes through a lot of trauma that I didn't realize until I started learning about the show. Yeah,

[28:08] Speaker 3: she does. She goes through hell with Macavity.

[28:13] Mike Abrams: Who are your favorite and least favorite cats? Actors, characters.

[28:19] Speaker 3: My favorites are misto and skim bowl and jelly, loam and Gus. Those would be my top four. My least favorite. That's hard. Um, sometimes I say it's Rum Tum Tugger because I'm just like, Oh, this guy again every night, like he's such a ham. Um, when my when my family saw it, and when my husband saw, he's like, man, Tugger is kind of a ham. He's kind of, he's funny, but he's like, all over the place. I just, I think he's just like, that annoying, like, older brother that you're just like, like, Come on, dude. Like, it's like a Hannah. It's like the Hannah Montana and Jackson. Like, I'm like, come on. Like, can you just, we're trying to get the story along. Stop interrupting. Like, but I think he's great. But I think out of all of them, I think Rum Tum Tugger, I'm just like, Okay, can we get to the Jellicle Ball? Now I'm making it about you, like, things like that. Yeah,

[29:13] Mike Abrams: which is your favorite song from the

[29:15] Speaker 3: show skimble Shanks, hands down. Always, every time it's

[29:20] Mike Abrams: such a do you build the train on tour right now? Okay, I'm still scarred because the light hit me, pointed into the crowd, and I was not ready for that, and so I'm like, I do. It's the song has grown on me, but when I saw it the first time, I'm like, I don't like this guy, and I don't even know who pointed it at me, because it's not skimble shanks. It's missed out. Skimble shanks. It's Miss though, sorry. Well, I gotta find out who, who did Miss Stone 2016 and I got some, I got some words for him, which, here's my kind of last rapid fire. And then we can debate the the three years worth. Now, I think we're going to talk about all three, because you've answered one. Of them, but which, which other like, I always like to think about which other character could like be the Victoria kind of track so like, which one? Like which? Who else could have their kind of coming of age moment in your Jockle tribe? If it's not Victoria, if

[30:18] Speaker 3: it was female identifying probably syllabu or tantamile. Tanta mile and I do a lot of the same movements, but since tanta mile is a twin and she's psychic, it wouldn't quite read, I think. But I think for syllabub it might, but it also might be that like, she's, she's like, she's younger, maybe than me. So I think people would be like, I think this is way too inappropriate for audiences. Male identifying, I feel like it could be tumble. Maybe because I feel like tumble and Victoria relate in the way of how all of their tricks and stuff. So maybe, maybe his like being like, over flamboyant and like, wanting to, like, flip all the time and be like, hey, Deuteronomy, look at me like it's kind of like, yeah, coming of age kind of thing maybe,

[31:09] Mike Abrams: okay, okay, now let's get to the final question. I've argued at length that I don't think Grizabella is the correct Jellicle choice this year. So what I want to hear from you, and we can discuss these, and I have some follow up questions I'm sure. Okay, you've established that you think you were last year. I would love to hear if you think Grizabella should still be this year or somebody else. And then I'd also love to hear who you think should be next year, depending on who you pay. Oh, okay, um,

[31:39] Speaker 3: story wise, I guess it makes sense that Grizabella is this year's choice, because after memory, she's literally walking away to go shrivel up, shrivel up and die. And it's just sad that she like if that was the case and she wasn't chosen, that she would just shrivel up and die and not be chosen. But I am always a skimble Shank Stan. I think he's overworked. I think it's time for him to go be reborn. I think, you know, he builds a train. He takes care of everyone on the train. He he's kind of like the dad figure to everyone, dad, Grandpa figure. I don't know the correct age of skimble Shanks, but I feel like he's just like, I need a break from the these jellicles. Like I need to be reborn now and next year's choice. Oh,

[32:31] Mike Abrams: well, before we go to next year, I kind of, I want to, I want to dig deeper. I like, I mean, I'm a fan anytime somebody says not Isabella, so I'm four. I'm four skimble shanks. I always had skimble Shanks as the uncle, yeah, the kind of like crazy, a little manic uncle. You know, the songs very fast. I think it's someone was telling me it's in a different like, it's in a The tune is quicker than most like songs normally are. It's like, not a common, common type, and so I I like skimbo Being choice. I think he is on the older end, so he kind of makes some sense. If you're Old Deuteronomy, what is your criteria for picking each year? Like, how does skimble Get that choice?

[33:16] Speaker 3: I think skimble gets the choice from Old Deuteronomy, watching his experiences and seeing how his life has planned out. I feel like skimble Shanks, there is like, a little bit of skimble shanks and Jennie, any dots, kind of thing. But I think skimble Shanks is kind of that, like single father figure kind of guy, and he's just like, kind of lonely on the railway. So I think Old Deuteronomy has a lot of sympathy for him, even though he has this like, big, like fun number. I think that compensates for some kind of, like, kind of loneliness, because when you see skimball Shanks, yes, he's with Jenny a lot, but I think that they're more like a brother sister, kind of like duo than aunt and uncle. That's just just my own little thing. So I think older is like, you know what? Let's, let's, he has been overworked. He's a little lonely. Let's, let's bring him, let's have him be the next one.

[34:12] Mike Abrams: Okay, so your kind of Old Deuteronomy criteria is merit, like this guy's desert. He's put the time and effort into the tribe. Yeah, he deserves it. And that would be very anti Grizabella choice, because she's left, yeah, so she's, she's not put her time in and overworked. Well, she could be, but not for the tribe, right?

[34:31] Speaker 3: She, I know that her story is a story of redemption, um, but I feel like every kind of story, in this sense, is about redemption. And I'm like, what about the people that actually like, work hard and like deserve things? And I know that there's like, this whole stigma of like, people who work hard and deserve better, but don't necessarily get recognized for it, or like the kind of people that are humble about it. But I'm like, Yeah, sure. But like, they deserve, they deserve this. Like this other person, sure, they went through a whole. Bunch of bad crap. But like, come on, like we need to stop giving sympathy for people who make bad decisions on their own. You know,

[35:07] Mike Abrams: I, I'm with you. I mean, I've been arguing against her for almost three years now. I do think the other thing, though, with her argument is that, if the whole point is that you, especially if your character starts her being re accepted to the tribe, why immediately send her away? Like, why not let her live back with the tribe for a year? Like, right, come back. So that is kind of would be my answer for next year's choice. I think,

[35:31] Speaker 3: I mean, some of us joke about that. We just, like, are just so tired of her just coming back. So just, let's just get rid of her. Let's just get get her gone. Like, let's just be like, okay, she keeps interrupting our angelical ball and everything like that, and our fun. So let's just, like, send her on her way.

[35:49] Mike Abrams: Yeah, well, I mean, I do think, like, this is a hard question, especially with you doing it every night, is to, like, think about why she shouldn't be it when then you have to, in however many hours from now, go and sell yourself is that she should be the choice here at the end. So I kind of get that. I I kind of, I like skimball. I think, I think Gus skimble. There's, like, more of the older cats, generally, the ones that get that get the the most kind of time and choice of this. I

[36:18] Speaker 3: think we need another year of Gus. That's why I've always been like, I don't, I don't know if I can choose Gus for, you know, this year, because he's just like, his whole rampus Cat and things like that we need. Like, he's the, he's the kind of grandpa figure that you like, look forward to seeing at holidays. Like, he's like, the fun grandpa that like is. So he's grumpy, but he's so excited to see and like, tell people about his past life. That's why, that's what the Rumpus Cat is. Is he was the Rumpus Cat and like, things like that. So I think we need another year of Gus.

[36:54] Mike Abrams: Okay, so now that opens up this next question, which is you? You go last year? Skimble goes this year. Who's going next year? Gus or Grizabella? Let's assume Grizabella stays back with the tribe and redemption becomes motherly, or, you know, comes back and is a good member of the tribe. Who are you picking between the two of them? Or somebody else? I

[37:17] Speaker 3: think Old Deuteronomy needs to go. He's He's going on his 100th year. And monkey strap, what Chrissy told us is that monkey strap is his right hand man, because he's training him to become the leader, which is why it makes sense that I touch grids, and then he learns from me and learns from Old Deuteronomy. And then, like that circulates. And then Old Deuteronomy is like, Okay, I'm content. I can leave now. You know kind of thing, that's why, that's what the whole story for us was told. So I think Old Deuteronomy, he's done his 100 years of work. He's done it, and I think monkey strap is more than well prepared to be the next leader. But if it would be between Grizz and skinless,

[38:04] Mike Abrams: I'm happy that you picked some how would that work? Does he just kill himself? I don't, I don't

[38:11] Speaker 3: know. I don't know how he has lived 99 like lives, or have gone through 99 wives, that whole sometimes I just don't even know the lyrics. I'm like, he's old. He's the oldest one out of the entire tribe. So maybe he's the kind of he just sends himself off. And I don't know what the heavy side layer is, but like, he just lays down and he's your board. I don't know. He

[38:37] Mike Abrams: comes back, yeah. Okay, I so now you, so you're going. Victoria skimble, Shanks, Old Deuteronomy, let's keep going. We got another year now. Monkey straps picking. Oh, monkey

[38:48] Speaker 3: strap. I think monkey strap would probably pick us. I think monkey strap, I mean, because they have their whole rumpus, cat duet. And I think, in a way, monkey strap and Gus have a very close relationship, unlike him, Old Deuteronomy. So I think he would choose Gus. He's like, You know what, it's your time. I love you. You've been a super great grandpa figure to me. But I think it's time for you to, like, go.

[39:13] Mike Abrams: So you've got as then Chris. So you've got Chris four years from now. Like, let's keep bumping her out. I

[39:20] Speaker 3: think she needs, she needs all I think she needs to prove herself. I think, like, not everyone should always have to prove themselves. But after all of like, I mean, granted, some of her mistakes weren't necessarily her fault. She was under macavities, powers or whatever, but I think she needs time to be with everyone, and for people to, like, actually, like, hear her, and things like that. So I think then after Gus, it would be Chris, I think, and then, and then maybe Jenny. I think Jenny. Jenny's got her whole tap number. She's energetic. She's got, she's got, like, 20 more years on her. She she can keep going. But do. Totally,

[40:00] Mike Abrams: yeah, she, she seems like she also has a pretty big role in, like, keeping all the kittens in line and everything that. Like, I think she's gonna maybe in a couple years from now, someone can start like, maybe you're Victoria is starting to take over, or some of the other like bomb and Demeter are starting to take over. Like, I think her, her own, like, being the mother is necessary for a while, which is, I think, why it's hard to argue for her. Yes,

[40:24] Speaker 3: it's like, I understand that they need, like, a few female figures, but I think Jenny, with her big tap number and like her energetic self, like she's she's got so many years left, let's not send her away yet.

[40:39] Mike Abrams: Yeah, now I am pretty confident that neither of us, I know, I haven't, have probably ever thought about this. Who do you think went the year before Victoria went, Oh, who'll be somebody in the tribe, right? It'll be somebody that's that's back, maybe

[40:55] Speaker 3: whoever Plato was, which is why they have such a close connection. That was

[41:00] Mike Abrams: kind of what I was thinking and I just as we're talking through this, is that it's your counterpart, yes, yeah, he's kind of guiding you through the finding yourself a year later,

[41:13] Speaker 3: that, or maybe my cavity, but my cavity is older, so I don't know how that would pan out age wise, but yeah,

[41:23] Speaker 3: could be Macavity, because it would be such polar opposite of what Victoria is like, completely 360 or 180 it'd be completely different. So maybe the cavity, yeah, one or the other.

[41:37] Mike Abrams: I love it. This is, this has brought a lot of things I hadn't thought about, which I didn't think was possible at this show anymore, with how much I've thought and discussed it, but I loved thinking about previous years and multiple years down the road. And, you know, all these different kind of these, these concepts to the show, and the different head cans that you you know, that you go through, and that you think through. Usually I try to convince somebody that's doing it to, like, play something differently. But I think you've got all these kind of, like, fun, fun ways you're going about it. So, super exciting. Yeah,

[42:10] Speaker 3: it was super exciting for me to, like, think about what came before. You know this Jellicle choice here. So, yeah, awesome.

[42:18] Mike Abrams: Well, thank you so much for joining me. How can people like stay in touch with you on social media? Um,

[42:24] Speaker 3: my instagram handle is Hila meros, which is at h, y, l, a, m, a, y, r, O, S, E. I also have Facebook, but that's for close friends and family only. Sorry. And then I have a Twitter, but I'm just never on it, but that's just at highlight, no tick tock. Yeah, I have a tick tock. It's just, I don't post. I just don't post anything like great. I just like to be in. Chris Salvaggio,

[42:55] Mike Abrams: love it. Love it. Well, thank you so much for hopping on doing this while you're on tour and on the road and sharing some incredible, you know, new thoughts for for all the listeners to be able to now start thinking and sending messages on like, if you're listening to this, tell me who you think the last couple years are, in the next couple years are, because I think that that is A very interesting debate.

[43:22] Mike Abrams: awesome. Well, thank you. And thanks everyone else for listening to this episode of the wrong cat died the podcast. Break down the catastrophe. To follow along, you can subscribe on Apple podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or anywhere else in the podcast. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at the wrong cat died. Or check out our website, the wrong cat die.com.