This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:09] Ebony Vines: Don't you see? It's so simple. Step one. We Google the biggest flops on Broadway. Step two, we find the crazy stories behind them. Step three, we see how they lose millions of dollars. Millions! Broadway isn't cheap. A lot of fancy people want to be producers. Step four, find out why the show won't go on. Step five, end this episode and head to Times Square.

[0:31] Pamela Shandrow: Times Square, that'll never work. Only Broadway successes are in Times Square.

[0:36] Ebony Vines: Oh, yeah of little faith. What's up, Theater Geeks?

[0:41] Pamela Shandrow: What is up?

[0:44] Ebony Vines: We're excited about today's episode.

[0:47] Pamela Shandrow: We are excited.

[0:49] Ebony Vines: This is episode number two of Smash.

[0:52] Pamela Shandrow: The NBC!

[0:54] Ebony Vines: Smash extra syllable. Smash.

[1:03] Pamela Shandrow: I try to make you laugh. Most of the time it works.

[1:06] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[1:11] Pamela Shandrow: Smash. I'll do it with a lateral lisp. It's kind of fun. Smash.

[1:17] Ebony Vines: Let's watch some Smash, Pamela.

[1:22] Pamela Shandrow: Oh lordy. Yeah, so episode two.

[1:25] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[1:29] Pamela Shandrow: I will say up front that episode two has a lot of exposition. It's a lot of setup to what will happen in the future of the show.

[1:37] Ebony Vines: Right.

[1:38] Pamela Shandrow: So whereas episode one, I mean, they really hit the ground running with the pilot episode. There's a lot in it. And we know exactly where they're going and what they're trying to do and what they're gonna accomplish.

[1:51] Ebony Vines: Yep.

[1:52] Pamela Shandrow: Not, you know, not in its entirety, but you see the shape of the show right from the very beginning. But I will say the episode two, although you get a better idea of each individual character, the story doesn't really go anywhere in episode two.

[2:09] Ebony Vines: But that's okay because you have to have exposition otherwise you don't have a full arc.

[2:15] Pamela Shandrow: Right, because it's not like nothing big happens until the end of the episode.

[2:21] Ebony Vines: Right.

[2:23] Pamela Shandrow: But then even, I mean for those of us who have seen this the whole show, like we know that the ending isn't necessarily what is going to happen. You know, so um yeah, it's uh you know it was a good episode. You know we've got thoughts about you know some more men in power issues because Derek just he's the worst. He's a skis. He's a skis that you know what I love because my very first note was based on like basically the opening scene of the episode where you've got Tom and Grace the writers in a meeting with Angela—Angela no what's the producer's name?

[3:19] Ebony Vines: Angela?

[3:20] Pamela Shandrow: Eileen, thank you. I guess Angelica, that's where Angela came from. Anyway, Eileen and Derek the director and Derek says, you know, Ivy looks like Marilyn, but Karen feels more like Marilyn. And Tom's first remark to her is like, how do you know what Karen feels like? And it just really sets the tone for the whole episode, basically.

[3:45] Ebony Vines: And I love Tom because he is an ally. He really does stick himself out there as at the detriment to his career.

[3:58] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, for Ivy. To put that man of power into question.

[4:02] Ebony Vines: Yeah, he does. He does. He does. And he also, like Ivy is his friend, and he fights tooth and nail for her. Like there's a lot of people who will say they'll do it, and then when they get in the rooms, they don't. But he said he was going to do it and he did, he does it. He does not back down.

[4:24] Pamela Shandrow: Well, and rightfully so, because there are a lot of times where I think people will stand up for a friend who's not necessarily the perfect, you know, choice.

[4:33] Ebony Vines: Right.

[4:33] Pamela Shandrow: But in this circumstance, Ivy really is the perfect choice.

[4:38] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[4:39] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. For this role at this time in this musical. And he's willing to put his neck on the line for it. I love that. I like Tom.

[4:47] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[4:48] Pamela Shandrow: Same stuff. Tom and Grace, I feel like Tom and Grace are my two favorite characters in this series so far.

[4:54] Ebony Vines: I mean, I'm sure that that looks great at the time, but they're great. I love it. And I love them both as actors, but they're just within this show. I love it.

[5:03] Pamela Shandrow: What were you gonna say?

[5:04] Ebony Vines: Um, I think Tom for the most part is who he is.

[5:12] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[5:13] Ebony Vines: If I remember correctly, just from start to finish. I mean, he's human, so there are some bumps in the road. He's, you know, not perfect, but I think for the most part, I didn't feel like he veered sharply from his character, but I could be wrong. It's been obviously a number of years since I watched it.

[5:36] Pamela Shandrow: Um then I remembered like, you know, something that happened in this episode. I remembered what happened in the finale, and I was like, oh right, this doesn't end. This just goes on for two years. You know, they always have to have something like that. In every series in the world, there's always that one relationship or that one thing that never gets its conclusion.

[6:07] Ebony Vines: But ultimately, if it does reach its conclusion, then the whole show is over.

[6:11] Pamela Shandrow: Right. Because that's what we're waiting for. We're waiting to see some closure in the Ross and Rachel.

[6:18] Ebony Vines: You've got um oh, Dr. Steamy and Dr. McDreamy or whatever.

[6:25] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always those love stories that you know.

[6:31] Ebony Vines: Although isn't McDreamy's dead? Isn't he?

[6:33] Pamela Shandrow: He's now, but like when it first started, like that was well something. You have to do something drastic if what the audience is waiting for is for the two characters to finally get together and fall in love, and you do it within the series.

[6:50] Ebony Vines: Well, in order for the series to continue, you have to do something drastic, like kill someone. That's what that's the natural progression. It's crazy. Television is so crazy.

[7:00] Pamela Shandrow: It really is. Well, and it's so formulaic, and yet it's still something that we fall for.

[7:08] Ebony Vines: Yeah, yeah.

[7:10] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, it's like who watch Hallmark, and it's like it's literally the same exact story every time.

[7:21] Ebony Vines: Like I had one Thanksgiving, I had a little bit of a feminist meltdown at my aunt because my aunt is one of the strongest, like most outspoken women, not even just women, human beings I have ever known, but will love a Hallmark movie.

[7:44] Pamela Shandrow: And I was just like, Auntie, why? I mean, and I get it, because I'm also I'm with you on that. You will never my friend Juliette wants me so much to love rom coms just like she does, and I can't, I cannot do it. I don't like them at all. They're horrible.

[8:04] Ebony Vines: But there is a form of escapism in that. Yeah, like I read my the books that I choose are fantasy novels, they are vampires and zombies and witches and whatever, like dragons, like I love those fantasy novels because it's escape. It's because there is nothing in this world that is vampires, zombies, dragons, witches. Like there's nothing there, that's all fantasy.

[8:29] Pamela Shandrow: You cannot like, but if I'm watching something like oh, the Handmaid's Tale is the perfect example of this.

[8:37] Ebony Vines: Too real.

[8:38] Pamela Shandrow: I read the book, yeah, and the book is great. But to watch, I can't. I watch it because it's so well done. But I'll finish an episode and then turn it off, and I'm like, I can't, I can't watch anymore.

[8:51] Ebony Vines: Because you're right, it's too real, and it's something that like could happen in a month.

[8:58] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[8:59] Ebony Vines: Like this, the fear in my heart. It's yeah, so that I just can't. But like the fantasy stuff, throw it at me because vampires don't exist.

[9:11] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, no, they don't.

[9:12] Ebony Vines: They don't. I would argue though, witches do exist because I do, you know, know people who are Wiccan.

[9:17] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, yes.

[9:19] Ebony Vines: But it's different because magic isn't real. It's you know, Wiccan, the idea of energy and using the earth. That's absolutely I can believe in that. But like to be able to conjure something with spells and potions, yeah.

[9:35] Pamela Shandrow: Not necessarily real.

[9:37] Ebony Vines: Kind of wish it was sometimes if I'm honest.

[9:40] Pamela Shandrow: I know, right? Totally.

[9:42] Ebony Vines: There's only so much lavender oil can do.

[9:50] Pamela Shandrow: I mean, I love me some essential oils, but they're wonderful. Do you know what is so funny? I have to read you my top three notes. So the first one I just read to you, it was the exchange between Tom and Derek. And then my next note is Derek is gross. My third note is why are there so many ads?

[10:13] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[10:14] Pamela Shandrow: NBC.com for free. It's like, you know, I mean it's free, but it adds about 25 ads where that you have to watch in order to get to the next scene.

[10:24] Ebony Vines: But that's like we're so not used to regular television anymore.

[10:28] Pamela Shandrow: So true and that's basically what that is. It's just like if we watched it on regular TV.

[10:34] Ebony Vines: It's true. And it's so funny because that's the reason I got like that's the reason I don't watch it anymore. That's the reason why Netflix came into my life and stayed there.

[10:42] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[10:43] Ebony Vines: I don't have to watch ads when I watch Netflix.

[10:45] Pamela Shandrow: And Prime.

[10:47] Ebony Vines: And there's something very desirable about that. Yeah. That's also why I don't watch Hulu very often.

[10:53] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[10:53] Ebony Vines: Because there are ads with Hulu. You have to upgrade in order to not have it.

[10:58] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[10:58] Ebony Vines: Not willing to do that yet.

[10:59] Pamela Shandrow: I know. And really honestly, the only thing I watch on Hulu is Handmaid's Tale, and we just talked about how frequently that is.

[11:08] Ebony Vines: I started watching uh so I love the Ava DuVernay show Queen Sugar. My best friend told me about it, and then over quarantine, I've just I finished the whole series. It's not done.

[11:24] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, it's on Hulu, Queen Sugar, and just like the way she is able to marry good storytelling with social issues.

[11:32] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[11:32] Pamela Shandrow: It's based on a book.

[11:34] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[11:35] Pamela Shandrow: And so there's four seasons.

[11:41] Ebony Vines: Is that four seasons on Hulu?

[11:44] Pamela Shandrow: I think.

[11:45] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[11:45] Pamela Shandrow: But I know they got renewed for another season, so that's why I'm confused. It's either three or four on there, but then they got renewed for a next one. It's real good.

[11:54] Ebony Vines: Nice.

[11:55] Pamela Shandrow: But yeah, the ads, the ads even on that were not as bad as flipping NBC.com. There are five ads in a row five times during a 38-minute episode.

[12:10] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[12:11] Pamela Shandrow: I mean, it's like we were watching, so this is actually kind of funny. Yeah. We watched as a Zoom party.

[12:18] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[12:18] Pamela Shandrow: And so we had, I think, three other people watching with us this time, right?

[12:22] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[12:22] Pamela Shandrow: And one of the ladies at the end, you asked the question, you know, are we ready for another one? And usually the answer is no, because it's nine o'clock and that's way my bedtime.

[12:31] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[12:32] Pamela Shandrow: But she goes, Oh, wait a minute. I started episode two, and like we were all still finishing episode one, and it came out then that she was like, Oh, I bought the whole season, so I don't have to watch the ads.

[12:45] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[12:46] Pamela Shandrow: But we were all like, How did that happen? We all started at the same time. It was very funny.

[12:52] Ebony Vines: Yeah, she was on, she had she was like 10 minutes into episode three.

[12:56] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[12:57] Ebony Vines: And we were still finishing up episode two.

[13:02] Pamela Shandrow: So funny. Oh, that's funny. So that um, but that opening scene where they're in the room arguing. And, you know, Derek says that it's funny though. Derek says that that Karen feels more like Marilyn, but then it's like all he does is berate her for that.

[13:22] Ebony Vines: Right, the entirety of the episode.

[13:24] Pamela Shandrow: He picks on her. Uh what here's I think what he's doing though, and this is this is a device of a lot of really skeezy directors, is that they will tear you down in order to build them up, build you up in a way that they want you to be. Not necessarily coming from your own inner strength or your own talent as an actor, but tearing you down and making you so vulnerable that you just do what they want you to do from that point on. And it's horrible. It is a horrible thing to do. I've heard that also about a lot of uh theatrical instruction. I was on um a webinar this week with the American Theater Wing. Um, and uh a young woman that I know, she was on the panel, and she brought up like just this excellent point that I've heard from a lot of people who've studied theater in a lot of these programs across the country.

That you know, she's like, we you you go in with all this excitement and this joy, and then she's like, we have got to figure out a better educational system instead of like breaking people down and then graduating all of these broken individuals. I mean, Ruth Deanne Miles told her story about graduating from the NYU program, and she was like, that program messed me up so hard. Like I love therapy, I'm in therapy, but she was like, I was on ther in therapy and on multiple medications after that I was not on before I entered the program.

[14:58] Ebony Vines: Yeah. And um, you know, I have another friend who went through another uh drama, like I just have a number of friends who've gone through programs who've come out just like they, you know. I have one good friend who said she put it so well, she was like, they break you down to build you back up, but they don't actually know how to build you back up after. They don't, so they just leave a broken mess. And it's it's it's emotional sabotage, yeah, is what it is. It's isolation. It is absolute abuse, yeah, and it needs to stop. It's it is basically emotional rape. Yeah, they take away from you something that is inherently yours, yeah, and they tell you that you're crazy for having it in the first place. And it's I mean, it's gaslighting, it's terrible. It's terrible. Well, and there there are stories about, and it's mostly actresses that are treated this way. They don't certainly treat the Marlon Brandos of the world in this manner, but uh Jack Nicholson has been.

[15:55] Pamela Shandrow: I do know some male actors who Okay, and I mean that I'm sure that that's true, and that is good to know that you've got some anecdotal evidence as well. Um, the evidence that I have heard stories about are women are actresses in the field, but there's a specific one that I can think of right off the top of my head, and that's Shelley Duvall um filming The Shining, where Stanley Kubrick made her feel insane the entire time she was recording that movie or she was filming that movie, and it was so that her character would be insane on film, and that's the thing. If you're an actor, you don't have to feel that way in real life.

[16:40] Ebony Vines: That's what kills me. It's like you hired me because I'm a good actress that would be able to perform exactly what you want from me. So don't you don't trust me to actually do it. Yeah, and that's what it comes down to, and that's what theater that is what that is pro what performing is all about. It is about trust. I trust the director and I trust my castmates to be able to play together to have this collaboration, and if you take that trust away, you don't have anything left.

[17:11] Pamela Shandrow: It's a relationship that has broken trust.

[17:13] Ebony Vines: Yeah, you can't go back to that in a normal way.

[17:16] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, it's it's terrifying.

[17:20] Ebony Vines: Yeah, it's it's a serious problem. And you know, we talk a lot about like how to fix the pathway and the pipeline to creating a more equitable um theater community, but I'm also like there's some leaders, there's we got problems with some of the leaders.

[17:40] Pamela Shandrow: Yes.

[17:42] Ebony Vines: Yes. Well, and that's where all of the issues lie.

[17:45] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[17:46] Ebony Vines: With the establishment as it is.

[17:48] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, yeah.

[17:49] Ebony Vines: And in order to fix that, you have to start from scratch.

[17:53] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[17:54] Ebony Vines: Yeah, some people gotta be. That government education and and all of these pre-existing fields, it's not, but that's just it.

[18:04] Pamela Shandrow: It's not, you're right.

[18:04] Ebony Vines: It's not gonna happen, which makes it even more frustrating because you see that the issues are there and the issues are very, very real, and there are no there's no fixing the issues at hand unless you start from scratch, but because nobody's willing to do that, you know that it's not gonna get any better. And like they'll put little band-aids here and there, like there are um uh intimacy coaches within realm, it's huge. And advocacy coaching is starting as well. Like, there's uh like one or two uh women of color I know who are one is out, I think she's at a theater in Oregon.

[18:42] Pamela Shandrow: Yep, that's right.

[18:44] Ebony Vines: Um, and then I've just heard of another one on the East Coast.

[18:49] Pamela Shandrow: That's fabulous.

[18:50] Ebony Vines: Yeah, but it's a band-aid, yeah.

[18:54] Pamela Shandrow: When what you really need is a tourniquet, oh lordy.

[19:00] Ebony Vines: Here we go.

[19:01] Pamela Shandrow: We're just starting.

[19:03] Ebony Vines: Gentlemen are just starting. I will say, let's let's get back to something really happy because one of my favorite things within this uh series as a whole are the musical inserts.

[19:16] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[19:17] Ebony Vines: All of these performances that they're doing, the music is fantastic.

[19:22] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, it's great.

[19:23] Ebony Vines: And it's Mark Shaman, right?

[19:26] Pamela Shandrow: Oh no!

[19:28] Ebony Vines: I think we're both.

[19:28] Pamela Shandrow: I know.

[19:29] Ebony Vines: This is terrible. I think that's what I saw.

[19:31] Pamela Shandrow: Shaman and Whitman.

[19:35] Ebony Vines: We're both doing it. Who's gonna get it first?

[19:46] Pamela Shandrow: Not mash.

[19:47] Ebony Vines: Smash.

[19:50] Pamela Shandrow: That's hysterical.

[19:55] Ebony Vines: Goodness. Writing credits.

[20:00] Pamela Shandrow: Mark Shaman and Scott Whitman.

[20:02] Ebony Vines: So I was right.

[20:02] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[20:03] Ebony Vines: But they're um they, oh shoot, because now I can't think of what else they've done, but they've done a lot.

[20:10] Pamela Shandrow: Um yeah, Mark Shaman's very famous.

[20:13] Ebony Vines: Hairspray.

[20:18] Pamela Shandrow: Let's see.

[20:21] Ebony Vines: Yes, hairspray.

[20:22] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[20:23] Ebony Vines: Mary Poppins.

[20:24] Pamela Shandrow: I was pulling that out of the deepest recesses of my brain.

[20:27] Ebony Vines: Mary Poppins, yeah. Uh the the newest uh movie version of it, excuse me. Awesome. So like they're they're big hitters. They're you know, these are these are guys that have been there, have been doing have been doing the good work, but the music that they write for this TV series is just spectacular. I mean, especially when you think about the fact that like they're having to have at least one, if not two new songs per episode.

[21:01] Pamela Shandrow: I mean, that's never happened to for any other television show.

[21:05] Ebony Vines: Like when you look at the other shows that came before it, like Glee, Glee was a catalog of songs that were written already.

[21:12] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, you know, and then when you take a look at the shows now, even Zoe's Extraordinary Playlist, it's a it's songs that are already written.

[21:21] Ebony Vines: They're already part of my crazy ex girlfriend, same thing.

[21:25] Pamela Shandrow: No, that's actually not true.

[21:26] Ebony Vines: Those are original.

[21:28] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, yes.

[21:28] Ebony Vines: And that um Adam Adam uh passed away this year. He wrote a ton of a ton of them. What's his last name?

[21:36] Pamela Shandrow: Shoot, where's my Google?

[21:39] Ebony Vines: Uh, but he was young.

[21:42] Pamela Shandrow: I mean, he was our age.

[21:44] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[21:44] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[21:45] Ebony Vines: Crazy actually.

[21:46] Pamela Shandrow: Um, and he died of COVID, I believe.

[21:50] Ebony Vines: Adam Schlesinger.

[21:52] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, that's it.

[21:53] Ebony Vines: Adam Schlesinger's.

[21:54] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, so sad.

[21:55] Ebony Vines: He was only 52.

[21:56] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, he was not our age.

[21:58] Ebony Vines: I thought he was younger.

[22:00] Pamela Shandrow: That's not our age.

[22:02] Ebony Vines: But yeah, it's sad. And then, I mean, that's the second person because the other person who passed away who was on that show, um, is Nipsey, the rapper.

[22:13] Pamela Shandrow: So, uh, did you watch Crazy Ex-girlfriend?

[22:16] Ebony Vines: The first season.

[22:18] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, they've watched the first season.

[22:20] Ebony Vines: So he's in the first season. There's, I mean, I think it's the first episode where she has the song about getting ready for um the party.

[22:28] Pamela Shandrow: And like, if you remember that song, and it's just like the bathroom looks like a murder scene, and then there's a black gentleman who comes in and he's rapping, but then at the end he's like, I I'm really shook after seeing what he's seen.

[22:44] Pamela Shandrow: And it's like, and then he goes back and he apologizes to all the women he ever said anything wrong to after seeing like how crazy her bathroom looks.

[22:55] Ebony Vines: That's the late Nipsey.

[22:58] Pamela Shandrow: Oh.

[22:59] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[22:59] Pamela Shandrow: That makes me laugh and cry at the same time.

[23:02] Ebony Vines: I'm gonna look at a picture. Ava Duvernay is gonna do uh she is doing, I think she's doing um a movie about his life and oh cool.

[23:14] Pamela Shandrow: Nipsey Hustle.

[23:15] Ebony Vines: Hustle, yeah.

[23:16] Pamela Shandrow: I didn't want to say Russell because I was like, that's not it, but I know it's like it was hustle.

[23:20] Ebony Vines: But you're right, no, it's yeah.

[23:22] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, yeah.

[23:24] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[23:25] Pamela Shandrow: Well, you turned my happy note into a sad note, Ebony.

[23:27] Ebony Vines: Sorry.

[23:30] Pamela Shandrow: Sorry.

[23:31] Ebony Vines: Yeah, no, I mean the 20th century Fox Mambo.

[23:35] Pamela Shandrow: I that's totally fun.

[23:37] Ebony Vines: It's so fun.

[23:39] Pamela Shandrow: It's so perfect.

[23:41] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[23:42] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[23:44] Ebony Vines: It was yes, and that's right. Like, that's toward the end. And it's just so good. I love it.

[23:47] Pamela Shandrow: So good.

[23:51] Ebony Vines: The opening song is Call Me.

[23:54] Pamela Shandrow: That's the first song that Karen is at a club uh singing, but it only in her head.

[24:01] Ebony Vines: She just like can't she they haven't even been called for the callback yet.

[24:06] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[24:06] Ebony Vines: And then um So yes, her fantasy is singing, she's a singer in a nightclub kind of situation. And the entire casting uh like the director, the writers, um Eileen, the producer is there, like they're all there watching her sing call me by Blondie.

[24:24] Pamela Shandrow: Yes.

[24:25] Ebony Vines: And then she's woken up by a fellow coworker who says, Hey, table 10 is waiting or whatever. It's very funny.

[24:32] Pamela Shandrow: I do like those little that that device that they use for Karen, because they've done that uh a couple of times now in episode one and two, where her uh her ideal is going on in her head and not the actual real life.

[24:47] Ebony Vines: Like we don't see her in the audition room in front of a table singing her Christina Aguilera song. We see what she thinks she looks like in her own mind. I like that.

[24:58] Pamela Shandrow: That's fun.

[24:59] Ebony Vines: Yeah, yeah. Um, and then uh can you remind me what the closing song is with Megan Hilte?

[25:07] Pamela Shandrow: That's the last song.

[25:09] Ebony Vines: No, but it's it it um comes back around because then she is in a club, but it's real, and Tom is actually recognize that song.

[25:22] Pamela Shandrow: I have to look it up because I don't think I don't believe that it was new.

[25:27] Ebony Vines: I don't think it was either, but I didn't recognize it, so it might just be a cabaret song, like nothing that's in a show.

[25:38] Pamela Shandrow: Do do do do do do do do do.

[25:44] Ebony Vines: You know, I started singing and Puddle came over.

[25:47] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, he's sweet, he loves it when I sing.

[25:52] Ebony Vines: So cute.

[25:57] Pamela Shandrow: Okay, that's goodness.

[26:05] Ebony Vines: Oh, Cra Crazy Dreams by Carrie Underwood.

[26:09] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, oh, I didn't even realize that it was like a secular song.

[26:14] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[26:15] Pamela Shandrow: Although Carrie Underwood is very theatrical in and storytelling in her in her music, so it makes sense.

[26:21] Ebony Vines: But I didn't know.

[26:24] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, I I don't listen to much country, but there's, you know, of course, there's a couple, um Carrie Underwood songs that she's got some great stuff.

[26:34] Ebony Vines: I don't like country at all, but Carrie Underwood's got some great music.

[26:39] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[26:40] Ebony Vines: So okay, so that's those were the there were only three songs that episode Call Me, 20th Century Fox Mambo, and Crazy Dreams.

[26:49] Pamela Shandrow: There was a callback to let me be your star.

[26:51] Ebony Vines: Right.

[26:53] Pamela Shandrow: Um, but you're right that those were the new offerings that they gave us.

[26:57] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[26:58] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. So we see the scene, they're talking about who's gonna be it, and they just can't come to a decision.

[27:07] Ebony Vines: So they're like, well, we're gonna have to have another callback.

[27:10] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Now this does happen quite frequently when you're casting a new musical, you will have several callbacks because you want to make sure that not only are you casting the right person for the right role, but you want to see different combinations of people together so that you know that you're fitting in the right chemistry of people as well.

[27:29] Ebony Vines: So they're gonna be complimentary on stage. So four callbacks for a brand new Broadway show is not unheard of.

[27:36] Pamela Shandrow: Right. But it can also be emotionally draining, and that's kind of what we see with both Ivy and Karen. Ivy, who's probably been through this process before, although not to the extent because she does a lot of ensemble work.

[27:50] Ebony Vines: Right. But Karen has never been through this before.

[27:52] Pamela Shandrow: Right. The way that they perform their frustration and being so overwhelmed emotionally is so brilliant because it put me right back in that place. And it led right perfectly into the dance call, which I hate.

[28:08] Ebony Vines: I hate dance calls.

[28:08] Pamela Shandrow: They're horrible. I'm not a dancer, but I hate them. Like they're just that's where my anxiety lies. Like, give me a script and say, read page 32 for me, and I will meet you there, and I will bring new material. Like cold readings are my thing.

[28:25] Ebony Vines: But put me in a room wearing dance clothes and tell me 5678, and I'm gonna lose myself. Like I just I get very anxious and awful. And so Karen is right there. Ivy, of course, is a dancer and she's trained, so she's got it. But Karen feels less than, let's just put it that way.

[28:45] Pamela Shandrow: But did you notice how there are no scenes of Megan Hilty in her dance call?

[28:51] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[28:52] Pamela Shandrow: And do you know why that is?

[28:54] Ebony Vines: Was she pregnant?

[28:56] Pamela Shandrow: No, Megan Hilty actually can't dance.

[29:01] Ebony Vines: She cannot dance.

[29:03] Pamela Shandrow: I know because, you know, when they did the concert for like a couple months ago. Yeah. And then they did that cast reunion. They did two cast reunions, and one of them was on Seth Rudetsky's show, and she was like, I'm a I'm she said my resume says like mover, but she's like, I'm barely a mover, like I'm so bad.

[29:35] Ebony Vines: It's so true. It's the worst.

[29:37] Pamela Shandrow: She's like, they just throw me around and I raise my hands up, like that's all that happened. You know, and then if you go back and you like watch the song in the first episode, and after knowing that, and we watched it, and I was like, Oh yeah, that makes total sense. Like they are just throwing her around.

[30:00] Ebony Vines: But literally, like she's just being thrown around by the other actors.

[30:04] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. It's like holding your core, Megan. That's all you need to do.

[30:09] Ebony Vines: Yeah, totally. I will also say, because dance they do, they just suck. Dance calls suck. And I can imagine also there's there is another dancer in the room that's Ivy's friend that's kind of keeping an eye on Karen and like just kind of this really catty behind the scenes stuff that's going on, which just makes it worse.

[30:31] Pamela Shandrow: But it's so isolating in the first place to be in a situation that you don't feel comfortable in. And I am talking to you as a person that is pro-Ivy. If I were in the casting room, Ivy is who I would cast.

[30:44] Ebony Vines: Right.

[30:45] Pamela Shandrow: Karen is wonderful, but she doesn't have experience. My vote would be for Ivy. However, the way that they treat her is awful.

[30:54] Ebony Vines: Yeah. It's so isolating. It's so like demoralizing. Nina, like at one point, they're both there for a callback together. Ivy is surrounded by friends, and the writers come over and they're saying, hello, oh, it's so nice to see you again, blah, blah, blah. And poor Karen is just sitting there all by herself, and it's just that right there is a mind F.

[31:15] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, totally. That's why I love that like Deborah didn't even stay by Ivy. She saw what was happening, and she was like, I'm not having this, and goes right over to her. And I was like, these people feel really weird, don't they? I'm so sorry that you have to do this.

[31:32] Ebony Vines: Yeah, no, she's it was awesome. That was really cool. But it was just oh, what I will say that I laughed out loud when the door shut in her face.

[31:41] Pamela Shandrow: Oh yeah. He would he's the worst human.

[31:46] Ebony Vines: So Ivy comes in at the end of Karen's dance rehearsal to presumably go over scenes for herself, and so they kind of meet in the doorway, and Ivy walks in and Karen leaves, but she's kind of standing uncertainly by the door, and the case. She had another question.

[32:04] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, and he just slams the door in her face. He just shuts it, shuts it, and it clicks right in her. I mean, it was but I did laugh out loud, but that was awful.

[32:18] Ebony Vines: But then, next scene, she's talking with Deb, her boyfriend, and she's spot on. She goes, I hate him, he's a psychopath.

[32:25] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, it was so brilliant because it's like, yes, you're putting, yes, he is a psychopath. Yeah, he's terrible. I what did Deb say back to her?

[32:34] Ebony Vines: Did he just say that?

[32:34] Pamela Shandrow: Well, he was he basically just told, yeah, and he was just like, get used to it. And she says, I don't want to get used to it. And I was like, you shouldn't get used to it.

[32:44] Ebony Vines: No, you shouldn't. And also change things.

[32:48] Pamela Shandrow: Because that's a real terrible thing to say, and that's not being an ally at all.

[32:52] Ebony Vines: No, but that wasn't. I mean, I guess that was being supportive back then.

[33:00] Pamela Shandrow: Like, I know the terrible thing. But then watch how Tom is. Tom is like, he just keeps screaming, what a terrible person Derek is. And then, like, uh, not it, it's clear that just like it's clear from that contrast, somebody's paying attention and is like, women shouldn't be treated like this, and somebody else is not paying it, like, just he's like, I mean, too, he like comes from politics, right? So he's used to seeing and being numbed by watching horrific things happen to women.

[33:40] Ebony Vines: Oh gosh, but it's just like I don't understand how you couldn't say that to somebody you love.

[33:45] Pamela Shandrow: Well that's what I'm not understanding. But here's the thing, because then I'll come at I'll come at it from another angle. If the woman that you love is in a business where that is what is to be expected, and you don't ever want to come across as what her parents are, which is maybe you should just do something better, like maybe you should just go to college, maybe you should do something else, then you're gonna come across as supportive and in the way that you know.

[34:17] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[34:18] Pamela Shandrow: So I think that what he's saying to her is coming from a place of love, yeah, and is coming from a place of hey, listen, I get it, it sucks. But that's the business.

[34:34] Ebony Vines: You know what I mean? It doesn't matter.

[34:36] Pamela Shandrow: But also because that's like yeah, no, it's awful. It's awful. But uh, but I think that's what everybody felt. Like that's what everybody was saying 10 years ago, 15 years ago.

[34:49] Ebony Vines: A year ago.

[34:51] Pamela Shandrow: Well, and that's that's very true too. Really, not until most recently that we have now numbers behind us.

[34:58] Ebony Vines: Right.

[34:59] Pamela Shandrow: This is what they do, and I mentioned it before, but they isolate. Right, right. To gain power, they isolate you and they make it seem like you're the only one going through this. But if you say anything, you're the only one that's gonna be affected.

[35:14] Ebony Vines: But that's not the case. Every single person in this field, every single person, every single woman has a story like this.

[35:21] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[35:21] Ebony Vines: Every single person within their field has a story like this, has had a bad boss, has had a situation where they felt like they were being taken apart and demoralized and just ripped to shreds by the powers that be, and they had no one to talk to about it because they feared for their career, for their physical safety, for their emotional well-being, whatever it was, you know, fill in the blank, whatever your fear is. But that's that was the case. But now everything is coming to light.

[35:57] Pamela Shandrow: And you know what they say about light. When you shine light on something, the shadows have no place to hide.

[36:02] Ebony Vines: They just go.

[36:03] Pamela Shandrow: I thought you were gonna say the roaches came out.

[36:07] Ebony Vines: Well, they go and hide too.

[36:09] Pamela Shandrow: Hey, listen, I'll use that, I'll use that metaphor as well. Shine a light. If I turn the kitchen light on, those roaches go scurrying.

[36:15] Ebony Vines: Well, that's what we're doing. We're shining a light on the issues at hand, and we are causing those shadows or those roaches to flee.

[36:23] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, and that's a good thing, but it can only happen because we feel safe enough to take that step.

[36:30] Ebony Vines: Right.

[36:30] Pamela Shandrow: And we only feel safe enough because now we know we're no longer alone, that we've never been alone, that all these other people are going through the same thing, and there is power in numbers.

[36:40] Ebony Vines: Right.

[36:41] Pamela Shandrow: That's right. It's a good word.

[36:48] Ebony Vines: What is Ellis Deal?

[36:50] Pamela Shandrow: The assistant.

[36:52] Ebony Vines: That's the thing about him, right? Is like it's a great character because right now you're like if you had watched the show and you didn't know he was terrible, you might be like, I mean, I have an icky feeling about him, but I'm not sure why.

[37:11] Pamela Shandrow: Because he seems awful. But then like always listening through doors and taking pictures and getting in the room and just being creepy and weird.

[37:21] Ebony Vines: Yeah, yeah. I don't like him.

[37:23] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. I I told you what, I told you, I told you like he still gets yelled at. I told you that, right?

[37:30] Ebony Vines: Well, that was actor chat. So he's uh was it Megan, your roommate that said that?

[37:36] Pamela Shandrow: I think it was. But she posted in the group chat while we were watching the first episode on Zoom that the actor who played Ellis still gets yelled at.

[37:45] Ebony Vines: I'm the one who said it.

[37:47] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, you were the one who said it. I wasn't sure who to achieve. Okay, perfect. So yeah, there you go.

[37:52] Ebony Vines: And it was I read it and I was like, yeah, that makes sense.

[37:57] Pamela Shandrow: That makes sense. I feel so bad he's an I'm like, but guys, he's an actor. Don't yell that you and he did it really well.

[38:02] Ebony Vines: He did.

[38:06] Pamela Shandrow: But he's like a person with feelings. You know, I feel so bad.

[38:11] Ebony Vines: And you, I mean, if you think about it though, it might make if it was me, it might make me laugh a little bit.

[38:18] Pamela Shandrow: I he I mean it happened constantly.

[38:21] Ebony Vines: Right.

[38:22] Pamela Shandrow: He he said it on the call on the Zoom reunion call, and the whole rest of the cast went, and they were like, no, and he was like, Yeah, yeah, still get yelled at.

[38:37] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[38:40] Pamela Shandrow: You just don't walk down the street and somebody you don't know just goes, I hate you.

[38:47] Ebony Vines: Holy crap.

[38:49] Pamela Shandrow: Oh my gosh. I'm sure he's not the only actor that's ever happened to.

[38:53] Ebony Vines: But I feel like in New York, too. If you're an actor in New York, it doesn't matter how famous you are. People feel like they can just talk to you like you're a normal period, like a normal human being. Like they just come up to you and be like, hey, I don't like what you did in that scene there. Like in that episode. You were really rude to that girl, and I don't want you to do that again.

[39:12] Pamela Shandrow: I did. I I yelled. It was funny. So I had seen Hamilton at the public and had like stood next to Renee Elise Goldsberry and like had a conversation. But then I saw her walking down the street, like a few months later, after having seen it, I don't know, the third time or something, and just like yelled, I love you, and she goes, thanks, has no idea who I am.

[39:41] Ebony Vines: Oh, that's really sweet, though.

[39:44] Pamela Shandrow: If some rando yelled, I love you, I'm like, I'm gonna say thanks to.

[39:55] Ebony Vines: Oh, I have a question for you.

[39:57] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[39:58] Ebony Vines: This gave me such confusion, and I guess I should have just gone back and watched the first episode again. Is the actor that played Leo the Son the same actor from the first episode?

[40:09] Pamela Shandrow: It is.

[40:11] Ebony Vines: He looked entirely different.

[40:13] Ebony Vines: Yeah, it's the same actor.

[40:14] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, yeah.

[40:15] Ebony Vines: Wow.

[40:15] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[40:16] Ebony Vines: I wonder sometimes because sometimes the pilot gets shot. We don't know if it's going to get picked up, and he's a kid. So enough time could have passed where he just looks different because of the...

[40:30] Pamela Shandrow: Maybe that's, you know what, you might be right there.

[40:32] Ebony Vines: But it was so like jarring. I took like a second to look, and then I was like, I need to write that down. I was so confused.

[40:43] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[40:44] Ebony Vines: Yeah, no, it's him. And what I love about his character is that he's super excited for his parents to adopt. He's not the broody, angry teenager who's like, why do we have to do this? I don't want to do this. When they're supposed to meet with the social worker, he comes home from school early on time. He's better on time than his freaking mother.

[41:10] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[41:10] Ebony Vines: Even he's got a great scene with her, though. Uh, it was after Brian Darcy James.

[41:18] Pamela Shandrow: What is his character's name?

[41:19] Ebony Vines: I have to look at it. The husband.

[41:20] Pamela Shandrow: I don't either. Don't worry, I'll just call him Brian.

[41:23] Ebony Vines: Okay. Where Brian and Grace are having a convers, well, a fight really about Brian is kind of losing heart. So they find out that it may actually take up to two years now before they can adopt this child from China. And so now Brian Darcy James is having second thoughts, and he's saying, I want to go back to work. I didn't think this was gonna take so long.

[41:44] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, and two years just might be too long.

[41:49] Ebony Vines: And so, uh, Grace is feeling like, I mean, I took a year off work. I mean, I, we're all in the same boat. I thought this was what we were doing. So then skip to the next scene, and it's between Grace and Leo, and it's so sweet because Leo says, You can't back out of this because you told me I was gonna have a sister, and you told me she's in China, and you told me she was waiting for us.

[42:13] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, she's still waiting for us, and it was just this really beautiful, sensitive moment.

[42:19] Ebony Vines: It was really beautiful.

[42:21] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, yeah.

[42:22] Ebony Vines: I beautifully written. I thought, why can't they just adopt an older child instead of it being a baby?

[42:29] Pamela Shandrow: Well, I mean, listen, there's all kinds of different places and people that you can adopt from.

[42:37] Ebony Vines: So you're right, but maybe because they had already had a year invested into the process, they just felt like they needed to go forward with that. Who knows? I mean, I think I've heard stories of people putting their hands in all kinds of different adoption pies because you're just never sure.

[42:57] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[42:57] Ebony Vines: I have like friends I know who've adopted have just said, like, whoever needs us. Well, there's the whole, have you watched the show Parenthood?

[43:07] Pamela Shandrow: Yes.

[43:08] Ebony Vines: Okay. So there's that whole storyline right there with Julia and her husband, I can't remember his name, who are looking to adopt because they want another baby, but she can't have any more babies, and they've already got the little girl, but, uh, and so they reach out and they're like, Well, foster, we'll adopt whoever, and they're like, We need housing right now for a little boy, right now, and they're like, Okay, yeah, yes.

[43:32] Pamela Shandrow: And they bring this boy who's I think six or seven at the time that they bring him.

[43:36] Ebony Vines: Yeah, but it was not at all what they were expecting. But that's, you know, that's what sometimes that's what life throws you. Something that you're not expecting, but something that's equally important for you to go through.

[43:48] Pamela Shandrow: That was a good storyline in that show.

[43:51] Ebony Vines: That was one of our, um, Juliet and I's wine nights. We would have Friday night, we would drink a bottle of wine together and watch Parenthood, or Scandal was another show that we did, Gossip Girl.

[44:04] Pamela Shandrow: Parenthood is one of those shows I loved so much. I was sad when it got canceled. And so I still have not finished it because I'm not ready to say goodbye to the Braverman.

[44:16] Ebony Vines: Of course. Well, and there's something very special about how they all had relationships with each other. Like the chemistry that I was talking about before, you know, within that family unit.

[44:27] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[44:28] Ebony Vines: Oh, it was so good.

[44:29] Pamela Shandrow: It was so good. Bonnie Vadelia, I love her.

[44:32] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[44:32] Pamela Shandrow: I love her. The episode where, um, that same sister that you were just talking about, they, she has a falling out with her husband.

[44:42] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[44:43] Pamela Shandrow: And she's separated from him. And all the siblings show up with all these, like, they've all lied about why they're there. But she like knows they're there to be supportive.

[44:54] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[44:54] Pamela Shandrow: And then she's walking through the house and they're all sleeping on the couch, the floor, in bed with her. And I was like, I just love this family.

[45:01] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[45:03] Pamela Shandrow: It is really special. I like it too.

[45:09] Ebony Vines: Okay. So then there was more with like the Jerry and Eileen storyline.

[45:15] Pamela Shandrow: Ugh, Jerry.

[45:16] Ebony Vines: I know. Do you want to see?

[45:22] Pamela Shandrow: Or Lindy or Mindy or who cares?

[45:25] Ebony Vines: Frustrating. And then she's like, um, uh, she, oh, Eileen says we've met before. And she's like, I don't think we have. And Eileen's like, yeah, yeah, uh-huh. And then just like walks away. And then Jerry tries to like bully her about, um, the show.

[45:44] Pamela Shandrow: Gosh, what a piece of My Fair Lady Show.

[45:47] Ebony Vines: I think we mentioned it a little bit, but for the people that haven't watched, even though you probably should because you cannot follow us at all. We're not going out. We're all over the place.

[45:56] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, exactly.

[45:57] Ebony Vines: Um, but My Fair Lady, so because of the divorce, all of their assets are put into escrow essentially, including the show My Fair Lady, which was supposed to be produced like within the next month or so with Derek as the director. So now Eileen has Derek working on this workshop, but Jerry's like, hey, guess what? I'm opening My Fair Lady as scheduled and whatever, and trying to bully her into just getting out of the business and getting out of her, you know, she's, she's too emotional for this, I think is what he said. Something like that.

[46:25] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[46:27] Ebony Vines: Uh, and she throws her Manhattan into his face. The one he bought her. Brilliant.

[46:36] Pamela Shandrow: But okay, there was this really funny moment though, because at that time, Derek got up because another man in the restaurant was like, hey, can I have him for a second?

[46:44] Ebony Vines: Oh, yeah, but we know who that man was.

[46:48] Pamela Shandrow: Who was it?

[46:50] Ebony Vines: Oh no, who was it? Am I gonna feel stupid?

[46:53] Pamela Shandrow: He, he's like the head of Jew Jameson theaters.

[46:57] Ebony Vines: Oh, I didn't know that. I don't know what those people look like.

[47:02] Pamela Shandrow: He looks way different now because, uh, he, he doesn't so okay, I'm gonna show you a picture.

[47:09] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[47:10] Pamela Shandrow: Because, uh, I don't feel stupid because I don't think I've ever seen a picture of the head of that theater.

[47:14] Ebony Vines: You, well, you, you will, you will totally, uh, when I show you the picture of him, you will totally be like, oh wait, I know that person.

[47:24] Pamela Shandrow: I was guffawing watching this scene, right? So it's not even that important either. It is just heard in like a whisper. You d the microphone does pick it up, but it is not meant to be the main action, right? But you s you hand over to where Derek is witnessing the Manhattan being thrown into Jerry's face by Eileen, and he stands up to leave, and as he stands up, so Darryl Rosson, I'm assuming, says, you know, it's this vampire musical.

[47:55] Ebony Vines: I know I was like, well, wait, okay, what year was that? Well, what did what did we decide? We did we did Lestat and Dance of the Vampires.

[48:07] Pamela Shandrow: Wait, so but was and so 2011. Was it one of those shows like happening around ish then? Did Telsey do casting for Lestat?

[48:22] Ebony Vines: I don't remember.

[48:24] Pamela Shandrow: Cause I think I think I did, I did Dance of the Vampire, and I think you did Lestat. I think is how I think is how.

[48:32] Ebony Vines: That's exactly right.

[48:35] Pamela Shandrow: Jor so Jordan, I'm gonna edit this out.

[48:39] Ebony Vines: Jordan Roth.

[48:40] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, okay. So but I can't like you look.

[48:44] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[48:45] Pamela Shandrow: I feel that you would know who this is.

[48:48] Ebony Vines: That was 2006. Early 2006.

[48:53] Pamela Shandrow: Okay, so like because this is what he looks like now.

[49:00] Ebony Vines: I mean, that's like super square how he was that like he this is how.

[49:00] Pamela Shandrow: Oh my gosh. Super different.

[49:10] Ebony Vines: Oh.

[49:11] Pamela Shandrow: He, he's like a fashion icon now. Um, let me see that's video I don't want to show that the video but anyway that's him with his mom.

[49:11] Ebony Vines: Oh wow it is the same guy wow that's crazy because he totally looks like Mr. Anderson from The Matrix in that scene.

[49:39] Pamela Shandrow: I know I mean I some somebody before we start re-watching showed like a clip or a picture of him in it and I was like I mean I know that's the same person and I do remember because I had been to the Jameson offices and like walk past him and that's what he used to look like.

[50:01] Ebony Vines: Okay, but it's just like my brain is like what I so I wouldn't have known either way, yeah.

[50:12] Pamela Shandrow: Well, I mean so Jordan is a huge deal in the theater community. I mean he owns that the St. James and like four other theaters.

[50:21] Ebony Vines: Yeah well and I knew that it was all owned by that one guy. So you've got like the Niederlander Corporation and then you've got Jude Jampson, essentially all of the theaters and she would own all of the theaters in and Hilton, but or yeah, Hilton. Yeah own all the theaters in Broadway, but I don't ever think of the people that own the theaters.

[50:41] Pamela Shandrow: It's just weird.

[50:42] Ebony Vines: It's like a, it's because he's excuse me, he and his mom are like two of the most visible, like, you know, they're, they're um because also he produces a little bit um as well, whereas like the other ones are they used to back in the day, like in the 80s, that was like you had to produce in order to fill your theater where like you don't have to do that so much anymore.

[51:11] Pamela Shandrow: Right, now you're just more of like a landlord.

[51:14] Ebony Vines: Right, right. But, but he does still um produce and, and because Ju Jameson is such a institution. I mean, I remember going into that office, and there were so many Tonies. I, I didn't realize they were real. Like I remember walking past like this credenza that was just filled with Tony Awards, and it took me a really long time to register that they were all real.

[51:47] Pamela Shandrow: Do you just want to like spin the coin?

[51:50] Ebony Vines: Oh yeah, but I was like, I'm in an interview, I can't do this. But also it took me so long to register they were real that I just like I didn't, you know, I wasn't even there long enough. And then after I was like leaving, I was like, oh my god, those were real.

[52:08] Pamela Shandrow: So many.

[52:09] Ebony Vines: So many.

[52:11] Pamela Shandrow: Wow.

[52:12] Ebony Vines: That's pretty incredible.

[52:14] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[52:16] Ebony Vines: So funny. But yeah, yeah. Um, so yeah, that's, that's one of the one of the first sort of cameos by um because cause even though Michael Riedel was talked about, he wasn't seen yet, but he, he he'll show his face.

[52:35] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[52:36] Ebony Vines: In a later episode. I think it's season two.

[52:40] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[52:41] Ebony Vines: Yeah, he shows his face.

[52:46] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, I'm so curious if there was. I mean, maybe they were just making jokes about the failures of vampire musicals, is probably what they were doing.

[52:54] Ebony Vines: Probably. I mean, at that point, there had been like three, I think, failures. So it was just very funny that it was just like vampire musical. What? And looking over at the Manhattan, it's so funny. But I was just laughing so hard in that moment.

[53:12] Pamela Shandrow: And then we do have a kind of a I feel like, okay, so in these expositional uh episodes, I feel like there always has to be kind of the problem that crops up so that there can be a solution later on, or so that that problem will change the relationships, change the action, whatever it is later on.

[53:35] Ebony Vines: So now you've got Dev and Karen's character.

[53:39] Pamela Shandrow: Uh, Dev has a very important dinner meeting with the mayor or the governor.

[53:48] Ebony Vines: Because right now he's Dev, the boyfriend.

[53:51] Pamela Shandrow: So he's the assistant deputy press secretary.

[53:55] Ebony Vines: Right, right.

[53:56] Pamela Shandrow: So this was, this wasn't the mayor.

[53:58] Ebony Vines: This was like, uh, one of the dep, the like a deputy mayor.

[54:02] Pamela Shandrow: This was like a second or third in command, which would have given him a promotion.

[54:06] Ebony Vines: Okay, but he's, I mean, like he's actively in it to be promoted to an actual press secretary and not just assistant, whatever.

[54:14] Pamela Shandrow: It's a big deal.

[54:16] Ebony Vines: And he's asked Karen to be there, and Karen says, I will be there.

[54:18] Pamela Shandrow: She's got this dance call though, this dance rehearsal call work through with Derek.

[54:24] Ebony Vines: So everyone is let go.

[54:26] Pamela Shandrow: Derek's like, Great, everyone go home, fantastic.

[54:28] Ebony Vines: She goes, she has enough time to do her hair and makeup and change into a pretty dress before Derek comes out and is like, um, where do you think you're going?

[54:39] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[54:39] Ebony Vines: And in the meantime, she's already texted Dev saying she's on her way, right?

[54:43] Pamela Shandrow: He's then bullying her basically to get back into the room, like, we gotta work on our scene.

[54:48] Ebony Vines: Oh, you don't think this is important?

[54:50] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[54:51] Ebony Vines: And so she's like, okay, doesn't have the wherewithal to say, give me just a second, let me text my boyfriend, just kind of leaves it.

[54:59] Pamela Shandrow: So she's going through this scene work with the director.

[55:03] Ebony Vines: He's calling and texting her phone.

[55:05] Pamela Shandrow: It's blowing off the hook, but she can't do anything about it.

[55:08] Ebony Vines: So she shows up to this meeting and she's hopelessly late.

[55:12] Pamela Shandrow: She missed the entire thing.

[55:14] Ebony Vines: So they've got this big fight that happens.

[55:17] Pamela Shandrow: But it's, you know, I just, it's really interesting because within it, the note that I wrote down here, and I can't recall what the verbiage was, what they were talking about, what it was actually, except that I think that it was in this scene.

[55:30] Ebony Vines: But the man in politics is trying to teach Karen about boundaries, saying, saying stuff like, hey, listen, you've got to put your foot down.

[55:42] Pamela Shandrow: You know, he can't, you can't just be in this rehearsal all night long.

[55:46] Ebony Vines: Isn't he the same guy that called you at 10 in the evening to come over for a private coaching and blah, blah, blah?

[55:52] Pamela Shandrow: And it's like, I'm sorry.

[55:54] Ebony Vines: How often were you working at the office every single night late with no consequence whatsoever?

[56:02] Pamela Shandrow: But now all of a sudden, this incredibly important event, a one-off for Karen.

[56:08] Ebony Vines: Because nothing like this has ever happened for her before.

[56:11] Pamela Shandrow: And you claim to be supportive, and yet this one thing happens.

[56:15] Ebony Vines: Because it inconvenienced you.

[56:17] Pamela Shandrow: But it didn't have to, because her being there had nothing to do on his getting a promotion or not.

[56:24] Ebony Vines: Although, so it was weird, right?

[56:28] Pamela Shandrow: In the conversation with the deputy mayor, he makes this crack about.

[56:35] Ebony Vines: Um, so Dev says she's coming, she said she's on her way.

[56:39] Pamela Shandrow: And then the deputy mayor says something like, um, it made me angry.

[56:46] Ebony Vines: I know exactly what you're gonna say, and I can't recall it either.

[56:49] Pamela Shandrow: It was something like, uh, good because we like to see commitment from our workers.

[56:56] Ebony Vines: It was like something like that.

[56:58] Pamela Shandrow: Some, it was something like it felt very much like we need to see that you have your house in order.

[57:06] Ebony Vines: Yeah, you know, that you're keeping the little woman on a short leash kind of a thing.

[57:13] Pamela Shandrow: That's what it's about.

[57:16] Ebony Vines: His wife laughed at it and was, you know, and she made a crack that she never sees him.

[57:22] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[57:23] Ebony Vines: And it's just like, oh, gross.

[57:25] Pamela Shandrow: It's so gross to me.

[57:26] Ebony Vines: Yeah, so gross.

[57:28] Pamela Shandrow: And this is why I'm single.

[57:31] Ebony Vines: Because I don't want to put up with it.

[57:33] Pamela Shandrow: I know.

[57:34] Ebony Vines: You don't get to change my life.

[57:37] Pamela Shandrow: Listen, it's a relationship and we can come together, but you don't get to come into my life and tell me that it's going to change because you're here.

[57:44] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[57:45] Pamela Shandrow: I've had decades to be on my own and to work my life the way that I like it.

[57:51] Ebony Vines: So you can't, you're not just gonna come in and change it all up because you're the man and that's supposed to happen.

[57:56] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, it's ridiculous.

[57:58] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[57:58] Pamela Shandrow: I'll let you have your things.

[58:00] Ebony Vines: You let me have my things.

[58:02] Pamela Shandrow: That's right.

[58:06] Ebony Vines: Oh lordy.

[58:07] Pamela Shandrow: I know.

[58:08] Ebony Vines: But yeah, that was really gross.

[58:09] Pamela Shandrow: It was so like, you know, it's that kind of that quintessential scene that you see in a lot of movies and TV where he's sitting at the table all by himself, the restaurant is closing around him.

[58:20] Ebony Vines: She comes running in from the street going, did I miss it?

[58:24] Pamela Shandrow: Of course you did.

[58:25] Ebony Vines: How much later is it?

[58:26] Pamela Shandrow: I'm like, you could have texted him while you were on the train, going, Hey, guess what? I just got out, meet me at the apartment.

[58:30] Ebony Vines: But no, this is what they do, it's fine.

[58:34] Pamela Shandrow: And he's like, No, it's over.

[58:36] Ebony Vines: And he gets up and starts to leave, and she's like, but wait, aren't we gonna talk about this?

[58:41] Pamela Shandrow: Talk about what, Karen?

[58:42] Ebony Vines: I can write this scene just from my memories of the scenes that have been written.

[58:46] Pamela Shandrow: Do you know what I mean?

[58:47] Ebony Vines: Yeah, I totally do.

[58:48] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, yes.

[58:49] Ebony Vines: Over and over.

[58:50] Pamela Shandrow: And it's, it frustrates me that, and I know that it is a device.

[58:50] Ebony Vines: I know that it is a formula, but it still is like, you can't come up with something better than that.

[59:01] Pamela Shandrow: Like, really, that's where we are right now.

[59:04] Ebony Vines: Well, I wonder though, if this is like to point out the demise of the relationship and like where the cracks were, because they thought it was so, yeah, like everyone thought it was so, yeah, perfect.

[59:17] Pamela Shandrow: Her parents were like, her parents were like, Marry him, you if you need to like snap him up, and we're, we're as the audience, you know, it's this show is created by a woman.

[59:30] Ebony Vines: So she's like highlighting how a Dev first tells her, you know, you need to just suck it up.

[59:39] Pamela Shandrow: And Karen's like, no, I'm not gonna do that.

[59:42] Ebony Vines: And I feel like if the show were created by a man, he wouldn't, that would not be dialogue that would have come out of Karen's mouth.

[59:50] Pamela Shandrow: Never.

[59:50] Ebony Vines: I think, I think the whole reason that scene we just talked about happened was because Theresa's highlighting how it's okay for men to have high powered, demanding positions, but when a woman is going for her dreams and her dreams will also be demanding, high powered, and require her to work late, then it's an issue.

[1:00:13] Pamela Shandrow: Oh yeah.

[1:00:14] Ebony Vines: I think so, even though it is a device that we see often, I think like Therese is using it in a different way where she's trying to highlight these discrepancies and how we allow men to have these, these, um, you know, we, we allow men these concessions, but when it comes to women and their dreams, we don't allow them those same things.

[1:00:41] Pamela Shandrow: You can have your dreams as long as you're home by six so that you can make me my dinner and take care of the children and, and my life doesn't change at all.

[1:00:49] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[1:00:50] Pamela Shandrow: Like you can do whatever you want, it's like an iceberg, you know, how you only see the tip of it, but then underneath you've got this enormous block of ice, right?

[1:00:57] Ebony Vines: So all we see is the tip, and as long as the, as long as what you show me on the outside is everything as normal, then you can do whatever you want to underneath the water.

[1:01:10] Pamela Shandrow: Right, which is ridiculous.

[1:01:12] Ebony Vines: But it also comes from this kind of like I'm gonna, I'm totally supportive of you until you get close to success, and then maybe I'm not so much on board.

[1:01:22] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, I didn't realize that this was gonna impact me so much.

[1:01:26] Ebony Vines: Right.

[1:01:26] Pamela Shandrow: So maybe we should rethink this.

[1:01:29] Ebony Vines: I've thought about this a lot because if you look at all the women who, after they win Academy Awards, get divorced or break up with whoever they were with at the time of winning, you know, like Julia Roberts and Benjamin Bratt, like broke up right after, uh, Reese Witherspoon and her ex-husband got a divorce.

[1:01:48] Pamela Shandrow: They were together a long time.

[1:01:50] Ebony Vines: Yeah, right.

[1:01:51] Pamela Shandrow: And after she, and after she won that Academy Award, they got divorced not very long after.

[1:01:57] Ebony Vines: Hillary Swank and, um, and, and uh, the other low brother, I don't remember his first name.

[1:02:04] Pamela Shandrow: Chad.

[1:02:05] Ebony Vines: But after she won her second Academy Award, uh, you know, that marriage didn't last very long either.

[1:02:13] Pamela Shandrow: And it's, it, you know, it's been very interesting watching that trajectory, and it's just like in all three cases, I would say the, the their, the women's careers have in, in some situations, like they've taken a step back to have families and stuff, like on purpose, but for the most part, like that's what, that's what for some of them they, they literally wanted to, yeah.

[1:02:46] Ebony Vines: Like in some case, like in Julia Roberts' case, it was like a choice.

[1:02:50] Pamela Shandrow: She, because she didn't have to, and like when she's come back, like Danny, her husband seems quite supportive.

[1:02:56] Ebony Vines: Like there doesn't seem to be a problem.

[1:02:59] Pamela Shandrow: Um, so in her, in her particular case, it really was a choice, you know.

[1:03:04] Ebony Vines: You know, she was like, I was making 20 million dollars a movie, you know.

[1:03:08] Pamela Shandrow: You know, I'm at a certain age in my life where like I wanted to have some kids, so I did that, and I just like hung out for a little while.

[1:03:16] Ebony Vines: I was just watching um, an interview with Meg Ryan, who I didn't, I didn't know she like never really wanted to be an actor and just sort of fell into it.

[1:03:25] Pamela Shandrow: Really?

[1:03:26] Ebony Vines: Yeah, it's really funny.

[1:03:28] Pamela Shandrow: But so then she, after a while, she was like, I just kind of want to hang out with my kid, and like maybe I want to adopt one.

[1:03:36] Ebony Vines: So it was like 20 years of just like not really working very much on purpose.

[1:03:41] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, and now she's coming back as a director.

[1:03:44] Ebony Vines: Gosh, I mean, if I made 20 million dollars in one, in one job.

[1:03:49] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[1:03:50] Ebony Vines: And Julia was making that per movie for a while.

[1:03:53] Pamela Shandrow: I mean, that's just nuts.

[1:03:55] Ebony Vines: I wouldn't have to ever work.

[1:03:56] Pamela Shandrow: I mean, like, you could really pick and choose what you were wanting to do.

[1:04:00] Ebony Vines: Right.

[1:04:01] Pamela Shandrow: There's no, you don't have to hustle anymore.

[1:04:03] Ebony Vines: Right.

[1:04:04] Pamela Shandrow: And so in, in Reese's case, like she, she was not making 20 million a movie like Julia was before Julia sort of took a step back, but um, she, she, she just changed course because she was like the roles I was getting were garbage.

[1:04:24] Ebony Vines: Should you know you would think that after you win an Academy Award, like you would get some really great roles, and she was like, I wasn't.

[1:04:31] Pamela Shandrow: I was noticing like there weren't good roles for women.

[1:04:35] Ebony Vines: And so the first movie she actually produced was Penelope.

[1:04:39] Pamela Shandrow: Have you ever seen Penelope?

[1:04:41] Ebony Vines: I love Penelope.

[1:04:42] Pamela Shandrow: So do I, so do I.

[1:04:44] Ebony Vines: I love it.

[1:04:47] Pamela Shandrow: It's so charming, and I love it.

[1:04:49] Ebony Vines: I love it too.

[1:04:50] Pamela Shandrow: And um, and so that's when her production company was called Type A Films, but it changed, she changed it to now it's called Hello Sunshine, and it's a media company.

[1:05:01] Ebony Vines: Well, because she's really putting, she's putting a women's centric role within the film and TV, uh, well, just mostly film, I think, right?

[1:05:10] Pamela Shandrow: I don't think she does because she does TV.

[1:05:12] Ebony Vines: She does, yeah.

[1:05:13] Pamela Shandrow: She produced TV as well.

[1:05:14] Ebony Vines: She does, and it's turning into like a media company.

[1:05:17] Pamela Shandrow: Awesome.

[1:05:17] Pamela Shandrow: I was watching an interview with her and, uh, her CEO and their television president.

[1:05:24] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[1:05:25] Pamela Shandrow: Um, and I mean, they're like, they don't want to just do television and film, like they're also wanting to be a bigger social media presence and really just encompass media.

[1:05:37] Ebony Vines: So they're looking to be a media company.

[1:05:40] Ebony Vines: Um, which is really cool.

[1:05:42] Pamela Shandrow: But you know, I, I sort of hearkening back to all of that.

[1:05:47] Ebony Vines: Like these women were talking about like this stuff was sort of birthed out of an industry that didn't have a good place for them, and also like their, the change in life course, because in Reese's case, she divorces Ryan, and her husband that she has now is the one who said, Why don't you produce?

[1:06:09] Pamela Shandrow: Which changed her life.

[1:06:11] Ebony Vines: Yeah, right?

[1:06:12] Pamela Shandrow: It's like you get one husband who can't handle your success and leaves, and then you get the next one who's like, I can not only can I handle this, but I'm also gonna encourage you to do more because I think you're really smart.

[1:06:25] Ebony Vines: Yeah, I love that.

[1:06:26] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, well, there that is what it comes down to.

[1:06:29] Ebony Vines: It's an either or, you know, it's like you're more successful than me, which means I am less than you.

[1:06:35] Pamela Shandrow: And that's not the case at all.

[1:06:37] Ebony Vines: No.

[1:06:38] Pamela Shandrow: Because we're all individuals and we all have our own trajectory.

[1:06:42] Ebony Vines: And so, like the idea that like, I mean, the whole, the thing that I take away from the musical The Last Five Years is that same kind of thing where it's kind of reversed because he's super successful and she's stunted and doesn't feel the support from him, but he ultimately goes off and sleeps with someone else.

[1:07:03] Ebony Vines: I don't know. It's but it's that same kind of thing where it's like, oh, you're not supporting me in the way that I want you to. So you're nothing to me anymore.

[1:07:14] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Ugh. It's gross. I don't like that show.

[1:07:18] Ebony Vines: Oh, and I totally forgot about the sex scene.

[1:07:22] Pamela Shandrow: For the case. Because it came, it popped up on the screen. It popped up, and I was like, oh, oh Lord, I totally forgot. And I clutched my pearls again.

[1:07:34] Ebony Vines: A lot of clutching of pearls on this show. I didn't, I was like, I remember going, I forgot. Oh gosh, I forgot.

[1:07:42] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. I totally did. I was like, oh, oh, whoa, okay. Oh, I didn't remember that that was going to happen.

[1:07:50] Ebony Vines: Even though it, I don't know. It was this gross kind of like they were working on the scene. Ivy and the director were, and she asks some really good questions, really insightful questions, and then he comes over and he's like, may I? And she goes, uh-huh. And she takes down her, he takes down her hair and billows it over in front of her shoulders and just kind of like looks into her face.

[1:08:15] Pamela Shandrow: And then the next cutscene to this in bed. It's unacceptable. It really.

[1:08:21] Ebony Vines: He's the terrible person. Because he is a per he is in power. So it doesn't matter that she is consenting to it. It should never have come up in the first place.

[1:08:32] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's a thing. It really is. Someone has to have responsibility.

[1:08:40] Ebony Vines: Because listen, if we're coming from a place that we already feel subjugated, right? Then we're going to do whatever we can to gain whatever power or whatever amount, you know, of anything that we can grasp, right? But so the person in charge should be the one to say, you know what? This is unacceptable. And I'm so sorry. You know what? Let's if I truly like you, let's wait until all of this is over when there's no conflict of interest anymore.

[1:09:10] Pamela Shandrow: But they cannot ever be the ones that are responsible. Because they're thinking with the other, they're not thinking with I mean they're thinking with a specific brain.

[1:09:18] Ebony Vines: Yeah, not to the gross. Not upstairs, only downstairs. Nope. Good grief. So frustrating. But again, Tom is right. He's a terrible person.

[1:09:28] Pamela Shandrow: He's a terrible person. And then there's a scene between Derek and Eileen later where he says, I need to tell you something before it gets back to you.

[1:09:39] Ebony Vines: And I thought he was gonna mention having sex with Ivy after Ivy has, spoiler alert, been hired as the Marilyn.

[1:09:47] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Uh, but then he goes, No, your husband reached out to me to do My Fair Lady, but I told him no.

[1:09:52] Ebony Vines: And it was like, Oh, so we're supposed to love you now. Get out of here, you jerk.

[1:09:58] Pamela Shandrow: But how why is it that you can treat Eileen? But like I was like, but you're a terrible person.

[1:10:06] Ebony Vines: And the only reason you probably did that is because maybe you feel like a tiny pebble of bad that you're about what you did, but it's like so small, it's a mouse poop size of feeling bad. And so you're like, eh, I'll throw him a bone.

[1:10:28] Pamela Shandrow: Yep. Ugh.

[1:10:30] Ebony Vines: Eric.

[1:10:33] Pamela Shandrow: Derek.

[1:10:34] Ebony Vines: Oh man. And that's the end of my notes.

[1:10:40] Pamela Shandrow: This is a good episode. I really love 20th Century Fox Mambo.

[1:10:45] Ebony Vines: Oh, so good.

[1:10:47] Pamela Shandrow: 20th Century Fox Mambo. So much fun.

[1:10:52] Ebony Vines: So much fun.

[1:10:54] Pamela Shandrow: Oh man. Uh yeah, so next week we'll see.

[1:10:59] Ebony Vines: We'll see. Oh, we didn't talk about the letter.

[1:11:04] Pamela Shandrow: The letter that Deborah Messing's character writes to the baby.

[1:11:09] Ebony Vines: So sweet. So they're in like a support group of some kinds.

[1:11:14] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, it's like a support group for for um people who are yeah, right.

[1:11:19] Ebony Vines: Which totally makes sense. I have friends who've been through the process, and God knows, you know, support is like sure.

[1:11:26] Pamela Shandrow: Oh needed.

[1:11:29] Ebony Vines: So um, and in the episode, like after they have that whole argument, she was starting to write it and threw it away.

[1:11:39] Pamela Shandrow: Um, I mean, uh it wasn't right after the argument, it was they weren't having an argument at that moment. He was saying he wanted to go back to school, which he double.

[1:11:51] Ebony Vines: This is a piece I love though. He was a stay-at-home dad for like a most of their son's life, and then was like, Honey, is it okay if I go back to work?

[1:12:00] Pamela Shandrow: And I'm like, okay, I'm here for this. I'm here for some revolt like role reversal where the dude's staying home and the wife is like making all the money and why they live in that palatial, palatial apartment.

[1:12:13] Ebony Vines: Yes. Which I don't think is realistic when we're talking about like composers for and lyricists for musical theater, but okay. I'll let you have that Smash, whatever.

[1:12:24] Pamela Shandrow: Um yeah, but but uh so after that scene, which was a pretty cute scene, yeah.

[1:12:31] Ebony Vines: Um she she does like just throw away the letter, so you don't think she's gonna write it, but then at the end of the episode, she's in the support group and she has written the letter and it's really sweet.

[1:12:42] Pamela Shandrow: And then he walks in and sits with her, um, and is and is going to try to support her again.

[1:12:49] Ebony Vines: They're and they're gonna try to still continue on this adoption journey.

[1:12:53] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, I just think you don't have to okay.

[1:12:57] Ebony Vines: At that point, it's two years. You don't have to put your lives on hold anymore. You can't put your lives on hold anymore.

[1:13:03] Pamela Shandrow: No, no, because if you're not working for two full years, how are you gonna support this new brand new baby?

[1:13:09] Ebony Vines: Well, that and all the cost of adopting, you know, especially a child that's not in this country, like the travel costs.

[1:13:18] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, I mean, it's it's his whole salary could technically go to just that, and hers would pay for everything else.

[1:13:27] Ebony Vines: Mm-hmm. And I think that's fine. I think that's a more well-rounded family from the point of view of a social worker, certainly.

[1:13:33] Pamela Shandrow: Totally.

[1:13:34] Ebony Vines: She's not coming in and saying, okay, so for the next two years, I need you to be available at the drop of a hat.

[1:13:40] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[1:13:40] Ebony Vines: That's not the way that it works.

[1:13:41] Pamela Shandrow: That's not the way life works.

[1:13:43] Ebony Vines: That's right. And if if the only people that were able to adopt children from China were independently wealthy people who didn't have to work, nobody there'd be no adoptions at all.

[1:13:58] Pamela Shandrow: Exactly.

[1:13:58] Ebony Vines: There'd be a lot of orphanages full of children in China.

[1:14:01] Pamela Shandrow: And there still are, but it would be even worse.

[1:14:04] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[1:14:05] Pamela Shandrow: They just make it so prohibitive, it seems.

[1:14:08] Ebony Vines: I well, I feel like it's so strange because you know, having friends who've been through this process, and like obviously, you know, the people that I know that have been through it, already knew them for years before they were they were walking this journey.

[1:14:28] Pamela Shandrow: So I know like what deeply good loving, kind people they are that will be the most epic parents.

[1:14:37] Ebony Vines: And so then you see like what they have to go through to get to that point, and some of them, I mean, the process just beats them down.

[1:14:46] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[1:14:47] Ebony Vines: And I'm like, but these are literally the people you want to be fostering and and adopting these your these children, and then you see, like, I mean, there's so many horror stories from um young people who've come out of the foster care system where there's like really heinous people raising them and taking care of them.

[1:15:07] Pamela Shandrow: And then I, you know, I just sometimes in like God, I don't quite understand why it seems so hard for such good people and so easy for such terrible people.

[1:15:20] Ebony Vines: I don't understand.

[1:15:22] Pamela Shandrow: Ugh.

[1:15:23] Ebony Vines: Sad. I mean, the whole process is sad.

[1:15:26] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[1:15:26] Ebony Vines: Well, because if you're if you're looking at having to prove yourself constantly over and over.

[1:15:32] Pamela Shandrow: And I mean, like, if you just naturally have a child, no, but you don't have to take a test.

[1:15:32] Ebony Vines: You don't have to do anything. You just have to pay for the hospital bill and move along.

[1:15:41] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[1:15:41] Ebony Vines: And you can raise that child however you want to. There's no proving system in that. You just have the baby and you have the baby.

[1:15:49] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[1:15:49] Ebony Vines: But in the process of adopting, you have you come against hurdles at every interval.

[1:15:55] Pamela Shandrow: And you have to again and again prove yourself worthy.

[1:15:58] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[1:15:59] Pamela Shandrow: But of whose opinion? Do you know what I mean?

[1:16:01] Ebony Vines: Like it changes.

[1:16:02] Pamela Shandrow: So you might have you know pass with flying colors with social worker number one, but social worker number five has issues with the way you keep your household.

[1:16:11] Ebony Vines: And you're like, well, you really won't have anything to do with the way that I keep my household.

[1:16:16] Pamela Shandrow: But you do because you're potentially putting a child into that household.

[1:16:21] Ebony Vines: Right. And if you're not comfortable because that's not the way you would run your household, well, then you've got issue, but it's all subjective, which is ridiculous.

[1:16:29] Pamela Shandrow: It's crazy.

[1:16:30] Ebony Vines: I I mean, I think like adoptive parents are people who like really want to adopt and are like really deeply good people, are just like the most miraculous human beings because there are so many children who need good homes.

[1:16:48] Pamela Shandrow: And for you to know, like you I hear people say like such disparaging things sometimes about adoption, it really makes me angry.

[1:17:01] Ebony Vines: Um especially coming from a Christian perspective, because like this should be something like technically, we as Christians are like grafted in, right?

[1:17:14] Pamela Shandrow: Like we are basically adopted into the family of God.

[1:17:18] Ebony Vines: And so we should above all other people deeply understand how powerful and important it is to open your heart in a way that allows for people who were not born to you by blood to be able to come into your family and to love them as if they had.

[1:17:39] Pamela Shandrow: Yes.

[1:17:39] Ebony Vines: Yes. And amen.

[1:17:41] Pamela Shandrow: So I just adopted parents are just wonderful.

[1:17:45] Ebony Vines: Well, and I and I will put in good foster parents into that as well.

[1:17:49] Pamela Shandrow: Because it's my brother and sister-in-law were fostering for a while, and it's a very challenging thing to do.

[1:17:56] Ebony Vines: You know, in in they had two different cases. One was very short term and one was very long.

[1:18:02] Pamela Shandrow: Well, not very long term, but like long enough term.

[1:18:05] Ebony Vines: But there are medical issues sometimes that you have to contend with.

[1:18:51] Pamela Shandrow: How did we get on this tangent?

[1:18:53] Ebony Vines: I love it.

[1:18:54] Pamela Shandrow: I this is another reason why I love Anne with an E.

[1:18:58] Ebony Vines: Oh, sure. Have you watched it?

[1:19:00] Pamela Shandrow: No, I mean I only watched what was available years ago. I haven't watched it since.

[1:19:04] Ebony Vines: But the whole thing's on Netflix.

[1:19:06] Pamela Shandrow: I know, but I can only watch it.

[1:19:08] Ebony Vines: Oh yeah yeah I haven't finished it I should say but I love I mean like because I'm still I love it. Don't get me wrong I love it.

[1:19:15] Pamela Shandrow: But I grew up on the original and that original version of Anne with Green Gables I mean I did too but I open your you listen there's space in your heart for both of them I promise you I promise you because I did too and then I watched Avon Lee the spit listen I love I used to watch Avan Lee like right after the the new Mickey Mouse Club was on.

[1:19:40] Ebony Vines: Yes same same girl and I never understood why they talked so weird until I realized it was a Canadian show.

[1:19:49] Pamela Shandrow: And so Jasper is playing Matthew.

[1:19:52] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[1:19:53] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah wonderful I just I love it and don't get me wrong I really do love it.

[1:19:58] Ebony Vines: I'm actually maybe I'll get back into that thanks so much for joining us on this miraculous adventure of season two or of of season one episode two of Smash Samash.

[1:20:10] Pamela Shandrow: All right thank you all for listening you're wonderful we love you geeks talk to you later bye.