This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ebony Vines: Welcome to Theatre Geeks Anonymous, the podcast about Broadway flops, scandals, and new work.

[0:08] Pamela Shandrow: I'm your host, Ebony Vines.

[0:10] Pamela Shandrow: And I'm your host, Pamela Shandrow.

[0:13] Ebony Vines: Don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the Theatre Geeks Anonymous Podcast on the Broadway Podcast Network and all your favorite podcast listening apps.

[0:23] Pamela Shandrow: Thank you.

[0:24] Ebony Vines: Very excited.

[0:25] Pamela Shandrow: I know I texted you about it.

[0:26] Ebony Vines: I'm so I loved that so much.

[0:29] Pamela Shandrow: That was like the best text to get in the morning is like when your co-host is super excited about her episode.

[0:37] Ebony Vines: I loved it so much.

[0:39] Ebony Vines: I only wish that I had more information.

[0:41] Pamela Shandrow: I know I say this every time we do one of these episodes, but like I fell down a rabbit hole and then it was just the end.

[0:48] Ebony Vines: And I was like, wait, but what about this?

[0:51] Ebony Vines: And what about that?

[0:54] Pamela Shandrow: Oh man, it does always feel like that, or like there could be just a little bit more.

[1:01] Ebony Vines: Right.

[1:02] Pamela Shandrow: Um, I'm sure there is more.

[1:05] Ebony Vines: Oh, yeah, of course there is.

[1:07] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[1:07] Ebony Vines: But it's like, you know, it's someone's personal story.

[1:10] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[1:10] Ebony Vines: So, you know, you're not gonna know that unless you know that person, and then in that case, I wouldn't be telling the story on, you know, in a podcast unless I had their permission.

[1:18] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[1:19] Ebony Vines: Right.

[1:19] Ebony Vines: So that was why it was so cool that Rebecca happened the way it did.

[1:24] Ebony Vines: Because I had people that I knew that were in the cast, and so they had this inside scoop that otherwise we wouldn't have gotten.

[1:31] Ebony Vines: And then when we spoke to Michael Riedel, we had even more information.

[1:34] Pamela Shandrow: It was so cool.

[1:36] Ebony Vines: Then this time, though, I'm just like, this and also the show that I'm doing today.

[1:39] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, I'm going first, right?

[1:41] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[1:42] Pamela Shandrow: Yes.

[1:43] Ebony Vines: I'm just too excited to wait.

[1:44] Pamela Shandrow: Of course I'm getting frizzed.

[1:46] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[1:46] Ebony Vines: Um, but the one that I'm doing today actually happened like in the early 80s.

[1:50] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[1:51] Ebony Vines: So the chances of me ever having run into these people in my short career in the on the stage, you know, is not probable.

[2:00] Pamela Shandrow: So yeah, because they're they're yeah, they're much older.

[2:04] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[2:05] Ebony Vines: We were teeny little boppers, very teeny.

[2:10] Pamela Shandrow: We were alive.

[2:11] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[2:12] Ebony Vines: We were alive.

[2:13] Ebony Vines: But we were knee-high to a grasshopper.

[2:16] Pamela Shandrow: But barely.

[2:18] Ebony Vines: Like we were probably still like we we may have just been learning to crawl.

[2:23] Pamela Shandrow: You probably a little bit more than me at that point, but you were you're May, right?

[2:28] Ebony Vines: Oh shoot.

[2:29] Ebony Vines: Okay, you are May?

[2:30] Ebony Vines: May eight May 82.

[2:32] Pamela Shandrow: Thank you.

[2:33] Ebony Vines: Oh well then never mind.

[2:35] Ebony Vines: You not born yet.

[2:38] Pamela Shandrow: You were I've been the ball of your mother's at that point in time.

[2:46] Ebony Vines: You were like the the the mother saying, uh get me out, get this girl out of me.

[2:51] Ebony Vines: She's I'm so big and I don't like it, I'm very uncomfortable.

[2:56] Pamela Shandrow: If your mother was like that.

[2:59] Ebony Vines: I do have this wonderful picture of her pregnant with me and like this.

[3:03] Ebony Vines: It's uh it's it's either black and white or very old.

[3:07] Ebony Vines: I think it's actually a black and white picture.

[3:09] Ebony Vines: And she's like dressed super nicely and she has on high heels and she is pregnant.

[3:15] Pamela Shandrow: Oh my gosh.

[3:16] Ebony Vines: And she's in her she's in her classroom because she was a teacher, and so um a bunch of students are like sort of looking at her and smiling, which is really cute.

[3:26] Pamela Shandrow: That is cute.

[3:27] Pamela Shandrow: What grade did she teach?

[3:29] Ebony Vines: At that point, she was a middle school teacher.

[3:32] Pamela Shandrow: Okay, she was.

[3:33] Ebony Vines: I mean, she she actually taught middle school most of her career, except um she was at a middle school called George Fox at that time, and then she transferred to one where all the other kids would get um when they would get expelled from schools in the county, they would go to her school.

[3:52] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[3:52] Ebony Vines: And then uh when I graduated high school, she actually started teaching at my high school.

[3:57] Pamela Shandrow: So my brother and sister had our mother in their high school when they were going to high school, so it'd be like, Are you Miss Jenkins kid?

[4:05] Ebony Vines: You're like, Yeah.

[4:06] Ebony Vines: Uh-huh.

[4:11] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, that's nice.

[4:12] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[4:13] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[4:14] Ebony Vines: Yeah, because this was uh January of 82.

[4:18] Pamela Shandrow: Okay, so yeah, she was just pregnant with me a few months.

[4:21] Ebony Vines: And I was just six months old.

[4:23] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, I know.

[4:26] Ebony Vines: And I really was super chubby.

[4:29] Pamela Shandrow: I just would have wanted to squish you to pieces.

[4:32] Ebony Vines: I want to squish me to pieces whenever I see a picture of myself.

[4:35] Ebony Vines: I just want to go, oh, you're so cute.

[4:38] Pamela Shandrow: And every once in a while when I look in the mirror.

[4:42] Ebony Vines: That's good.

[4:43] Pamela Shandrow: That's good.

[4:45] Ebony Vines: Shall we get started?

[4:46] Pamela Shandrow: Let's do it.

[4:48] Ebony Vines: Welcome.

[4:48] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, wait, let's do the whole thing.

[4:50] Ebony Vines: Welcome!

[4:52] Pamela Shandrow: What's up, theater geeks?

[4:53] Ebony Vines: What is up?

[4:55] Pamela Shandrow: We are back.

[4:56] Ebony Vines: We are back, and and this time, friends, it's gonna be one of our favorites, a flop.

[5:03] Pamela Shandrow: We're gonna we're off the off the train.

[5:07] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[5:07] Ebony Vines: And we're back to to the shows that you know we want you to get excited about that are no longer with us, but you know, might you might find love with them.

[5:17] Pamela Shandrow: You might fall in love with them.

[5:18] Ebony Vines: Uh no, absolutely.

[5:20] Ebony Vines: And I was not kidding when I told you that I fell down a rabbit hole and got super excited about the show that I'm doing today, which is called The Little PRINCE and the Aviator.

[5:30] Pamela Shandrow: And the reason why we picked this one is because okay, as you know from the Smash episodes, Rent was just a show that was like hammered home ridiculously in season two.

[5:43] Ebony Vines: So we decided to pick two shows that had original cast members from Rent in them.

[5:50] Pamela Shandrow: And so and so this one has uh Anthony Rapp's.

[5:55] Ebony Vines: Yep.

[5:57] Ebony Vines: It's very exciting.

[5:59] Ebony Vines: But as a little boy, because he was playing the LITTLE PRINCE in this in this show.

[6:03] Pamela Shandrow: So let's get into it.

[6:05] Ebony Vines: Because I got a lot.

[6:06] Ebony Vines: Uh first things first, and get it right off the right out the gate.

[6:09] Ebony Vines: Uh a lot of the stuff came from Wikipedia, surprise, surprise.

[6:13] Ebony Vines: Um I got some information from IDB, or excuse me, IBDB, and then some from Broadwayworld.com.

[6:19] Ebony Vines: I found a lot of more information.

[6:21] Ebony Vines: Oh, and Playbill.com.

[6:23] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[6:23] Ebony Vines: A lot more information, I or a lot more searches were generated on different sites like Golden Throat.com, but I didn't list those because it seemed that for the most part those other websites just were like copy and pasted to or from uh Wikipedia.

[6:43] Ebony Vines: So that's that having said that I didn't use anything from those sites.

[6:47] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[6:48] Ebony Vines: Um, but there is quite a bit of information that you can find.

[6:51] Ebony Vines: Uh and some YouTube videos are maybe just one that it was uh it seemed like it was just the overture, but it didn't have any video, it was just like a black screen.

[7:03] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[7:05] Ebony Vines: All right.

[7:05] Ebony Vines: So The Little PRINCE in the Aviator is a musical with a book by Hugh Wheeler, lyrics by Don Black, and music by John Barry, and is based on the classic book The Little PRINCE by, and I'm only gonna say this a couple of times, and please forgive my French.

[7:21] Ebony Vines: Antoine de San Ex Superi.

[7:28] Pamela Shandrow: Listen, my friends know I'm pretty terrible at French, so I cannot correct you.

[7:33] Ebony Vines: Well, that's good.

[7:34] Ebony Vines: Uh I might, you know, I might just shorten it to Antoine later on, but I might also just try to butcher it again and again.

[7:41] Ebony Vines: Who knows?

[7:42] Ebony Vines: It's it's how I'm feeling.

[7:44] Ebony Vines: So Hugh Wheeler, who wrote the book.

[7:47] Ebony Vines: First of all, okay, his middle name is Callingham, which gave me the squeals.

[7:54] Pamela Shandrow: Why?

[7:54] Ebony Vines: I don't know.

[7:55] Ebony Vines: He's English.

[7:56] Ebony Vines: I think that's what it is.

[8:00] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[7:58] Ebony Vines: We do love the British.

[8:00] Pamela Shandrow: We do.

[8:01] Ebony Vines: And all three of these creatives are from England.

[8:06] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[8:05] Ebony Vines: Give me just a second.

[8:06] Ebony Vines: I've got a move some screens around.

[8:09] Ebony Vines: And also, just so you know, my computer is running fairly slow.

[8:17] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[8:19] Ebony Vines: All right.

[8:19] Ebony Vines: So Hugh Wheeler.

[8:21] Ebony Vines: Hugh Callahan Wheeler.

[8:24] Ebony Vines: Um, more importantly than his middle name.

[8:26] Ebony Vines: You guys will recognize him because he wrote the books for LITTLE Night Music, Candide, and Sweeney Todd, and ended up winning both Tony Awards and I know Tony Awards and Drama Desk Awards for all three of those.

[8:40] Ebony Vines: I think it's also significant to mention that he also wrote the book for Pacific Overtures, and that show actually preceded LITTLE PRINCE by about six years.

[8:49] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, yeah.

[8:50] Ebony Vines: Don Black, who wrote the lyrics, is an English lyricist who collabed with numerous people, some of which were Michael Jackson, Meatloaf, Quincy Jones.

[8:59] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, wow.

[9:00] Ebony Vines: I know.

[9:00] Ebony Vines: But in the musical theater realm, he's most known for his collaborations with Andrew Lloyd Weber on Aspects of Love and Sunset Boulevard, the latter of which won a Tony Award.

[9:10] Ebony Vines: And he also worked with Frank Wildhorn on two shows that we've previously done episodes about Dracula the Musical and Bonnie and Clyde.

[9:19] Pamela Shandrow: I think you actually did both of those.

[9:21] Ebony Vines: Oh, did I?

[9:22] Pamela Shandrow: I think so.

[9:23] Ebony Vines: I remember doing Bonnie and Clyde.

[9:26] Ebony Vines: But I think you're right.

[9:27] Ebony Vines: Because we when we did that uh double vampire episode.

[9:31] Pamela Shandrow: Yep.

[9:31] Ebony Vines: So fun.

[9:34] Ebony Vines: John Barry is an English composer.

[9:37] Ebony Vines: This guy.

[9:38] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[9:40] Ebony Vines: Wrote the scores for 11 James Bond movies between 63 and 87.

[9:46] Pamela Shandrow: Wow.

[9:47] Ebony Vines: He wrote the Grammy winning scores for Dances with Wolves and Out of Africa, among many others.

[9:54] Ebony Vines: He and Don Black did quite a bit together in the film and TV industry in their lengthy careers.

[10:01] Ebony Vines: He didn't make a strong showing for musical theater, however.

[10:05] Ebony Vines: And just prior to LITTLE PRINCE in 1981, he was awarded the Golden Raspberry for worst musical score for the legend of the Lone Ranger.

[10:14] Pamela Shandrow: So I took some notes.

[10:22] Ebony Vines: Sounds like, sounds like this was just like a wealth of additional fodder for our podcast.

[10:29] Pamela Shandrow: That was another little rabbit hole I fell down to.

[10:32] Ebony Vines: I this sounds to me like it it's like it should have been a recipe so far for like a really great musical.

[10:41] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, and thank you for pointing that out because that's ultimately why I chose to really highlight all of these people, and I'll highlight some more people later on as well.

[10:51] Ebony Vines: Because up to this point, the people that we've met so far are huge icons in in the music and uh in the theatrical world, in the music world, in the film and TV world.

[11:04] Pamela Shandrow: So you know, looks good so far, right?

[11:06] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[11:08] Ebony Vines: So in the LITTLE PRINCE, the book, the story follows a young prince who visits various planets in space, including Earth, and addresses themes of loneliness, friendship, love, and loss.

[11:20] Pamela Shandrow: Despite its style as a children's book, the LITTLE PRINCE makes observations about life and human nature.

[11:26] Ebony Vines: Have you ever read it?

[11:27] Pamela Shandrow: Um, I have, and when I went to Paris, it's like freaking everywhere, right?

[11:32] Ebony Vines: So well, he's celebrated now because it at a time he was banned basically across the board, and then the liberation, some some sort of liberation happened.

[11:42] Pamela Shandrow: Uh, and I didn't read all of the details because I wasn't gonna be able to add it to this report.

[11:47] Ebony Vines: But and then all of a sudden France was like pro their own people, which was really it's really great.

[11:54] Pamela Shandrow: Uh and so uh Antoine and Madeline are flipping everywhere.

[11:59] Ebony Vines: Oh man, I love the Madeline books.

[12:01] Pamela Shandrow: I read those all the time to Miles and and well, really honestly, any kid that I would nanny, if they had a Madeline book, we were all about it.

[12:10] Ebony Vines: It doesn't talk down to them, it doesn't talk down to children, and they're fun for me too.

[12:14] Pamela Shandrow: And I can practice my French accent.

[12:19] Ebony Vines: I liked the cartoon when I was a kid.

[12:21] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[12:22] Ebony Vines: Oh, oh totally cute, yeah.

[12:25] Ebony Vines: Um, so now uh we're gonna go to LITTLE PRINCE in the Aviator, which is the musical version of that book.

[12:32] Ebony Vines: And it does deviate slightly from the original classic in that Aviator Tony, whose plane crashes in the Sahara Desert, actually is the real life author.

[12:44] Pamela Shandrow: And the plot, his name is Tony, but remember his first name is actually Antoine, so I'm sure that's where that comes from.

[12:50] Ebony Vines: Um, and the plot alternates flashbacks to actual events in his life with his interaction with the fictional LITTLE PRINCE, who is a refugee from Asteroid B612.

[13:02] Pamela Shandrow: Uh, undaunted by the critical and commercial failure of the 1974 musical screen adaptation by Lerner and Lowe.

[13:10] Ebony Vines: What I know.

[13:16] Pamela Shandrow: 1974.

[13:18] Ebony Vines: They created this movie, a musical movie, Learner and Loaded, about the LITTLE PRINCE, and it was a bomb.

[13:24] Pamela Shandrow: It absolutely bombed.

[13:26] Ebony Vines: But A. Joseph Tandit, who was a co-producer of the movie, and he owned the rights to the story, proceeded with his plans for a Broadway production.

[13:35] Pamela Shandrow: Ebony, to save money, he decided to forego an out-of-town try-out.

[13:42] Ebony Vines: Oh dear.

[13:43] Pamela Shandrow: I know.

[13:44] Ebony Vines: That was the last line of one of the paragraphs, and I just went, I guess I don't have to finish this.

[13:53] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[13:55] Ebony Vines: Um, previews were originally scheduled to begin on December 31st of 1981 at the Alvin Theater, which is now I do not know.

[14:05] Pamela Shandrow: Cute.

[14:06] Ebony Vines: And I would have to write it down, and I didn't know.

[14:08] Pamela Shandrow: It's a meter laser.

[14:10] Ebony Vines: I don't.

[14:11] Pamela Shandrow: It's okay.

[14:11] Ebony Vines: It might come up in Not Since Carrie, which I'll read an excerpt of as well.

[14:15] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[14:16] Ebony Vines: Um let's, but it's a Niederlander theater, just so we're all on the same page a little bit.

[14:22] Pamela Shandrow: Okay.

[14:23] Ebony Vines: The first preview was canceled at the last minute after a change in both the director and the choreographer late in the rehearsal period.

[14:33] Pamela Shandrow: The production actually began previews on January 1st, 1982, which is only one day.

[14:42] Ebony Vines: What?

[14:42] Pamela Shandrow: So that was a big question mark to me.

[14:45] Ebony Vines: Well, so I my my wonder is like if it if the if what the information tells you is that it happened late in rehearsals.

[14:56] Pamela Shandrow: They had a few rehearsals right under their about with this with this new team.

[15:01] Ebony Vines: But I'm extraordinarily curious to find out like what happened with this team.

[15:06] Pamela Shandrow: Like why did they switch them out at the last minute?

[15:10] Ebony Vines: I realize creative team changes happen last minute, but like, but why?

[15:15] Pamela Shandrow: Well, and and here's some other questions that it brought up for me.

[15:18] Ebony Vines: December 21st is New Year's.

[15:22] Pamela Shandrow: Can we just pause for a quick second?

[15:25] Ebony Vines: Is it no?

[15:26] Pamela Shandrow: I messed up.

[15:28] Ebony Vines: Is it because it's no, it's December 24th, 9 p.m. Eastern Standard Time from here on in.

[15:35] Pamela Shandrow: I shoot without a script.

[15:36] Ebony Vines: It's 24th.

[15:39] Pamela Shandrow: Go ahead.

[15:40] Ebony Vines: I love you.

[15:42] Pamela Shandrow: That was amazing.

[15:47] Ebony Vines: So December 31st is New Year's.

[15:50] Pamela Shandrow: So to open a show or to open up previews on New Year's is a little bit risky to begin with.

[15:50] Ebony Vines: A little.

[15:58] Pamela Shandrow: But then here's the other question is if you're only gonna postpone it to the next day, are you rehearsing on New Year's?

[16:06] Ebony Vines: That's I thought uh do I thought don't they get like maybe they don't get Christmas Day and Christmas Eve off because I feel like original cast, I feel like original cast do, and then the stand-ins go in or something, but maybe I'm totally wrong.

[16:25] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, I don't know about that.

[16:28] Ebony Vines: We always had to, we always had Christmas on the tour at least, we always had Christmas off, but Christmas Eve and New Year's Eve, we would always work.

[16:35] Pamela Shandrow: But so, but if it's the next day, that means New Year's Day is over.

[16:40] Ebony Vines: That's what I mean though. It's like we would do the show, but we never had rehearsals on holidays.

[16:46] Pamela Shandrow: Bananas.

[16:46] Ebony Vines: I know it was a little strange.

[16:48] Pamela Shandrow: So those were the questions that it brought up for that.

[16:51] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[16:52] Pamela Shandrow: Um so late in rehearsals, Robert Calfin was replaced as director by Jerry Adler, and Billy Wilson replaced the original choreographer, Dania Krupska.

[17:04] Ebony Vines: Let's go into detail on these people.

[17:06] Pamela Shandrow: Because if you were impressed by the book writers, lyrics and wonder.

[17:10] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[17:11] Pamela Shandrow: So Robert Calfin and this guy, Ebony, we could do a whole episode on him.

[17:18] Ebony Vines: He founded the Chelsea Theater Company in the early 60s and really pushed the envelope for what was considered acceptable and safe in theater at the time.

[17:28] Pamela Shandrow: Like really pushed the envelope.

[17:30] Ebony Vines: And I did again, I just I didn't add any of this stuff because I just needed to get to like the the actual story.

[17:37] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[17:37] Ebony Vines: But if you have a chance, check him out. There is a book.

[17:41] Pamela Shandrow: Let's see, I wrote it down.

[17:43] Ebony Vines: Calfin's life and work are documented in Chelsea on the Edge, The Adventures of an American Theater, which is a book by Davy Napoleon.

[17:52] Pamela Shandrow: So I'm looking forward to like delving into some detail on that.

[17:56] Ebony Vines: But I think maybe we do a double feature. We do him, and then I'll do Adela Holtzer because she's the Bernie Madoff of and when we did Senator Joe, I could only just tell a little snippet, and then that lady's life is banana.

[18:10] Pamela Shandrow: Let's do it.

[18:11] Ebony Vines: Because I, you know, I that's not, I mean, it's not considered really any of the flop scandals.

[18:16] Pamela Shandrow: Well, no, that would be a scandal for yours.

[18:19] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[18:19] Pamela Shandrow: Um, mine wouldn't.

[18:20] Ebony Vines: I mean, yeah, you could consider mine a scandal as well.

[18:24] Pamela Shandrow: It's not, it is not safe.

[18:25] Ebony Vines: Well, safe in like um an emotional and socially cultural way.

[18:31] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, he he really expected that theater was a um fundamental and eye-opening for his audience.

[18:42] Ebony Vines: So if he had children coming to the theater, he would be telling stories about old people. If old people were coming to the theater, he would be telling stories about young people. If there was a black audience, he would be telling Jewish stories. If it was a Jewish audio, like it's so it was all of these kind of cross uh social cultures, but in a way that was like in your face about it.

[19:04] Pamela Shandrow: He was not shy, and at a time, especially in the early 60s when everything was really like oh, and he's Jewish.

[19:13] Ebony Vines: So you've got the black community of people trying to come out of this whole civil rights issue. You've got the Jewish community kind of trying to do the same thing for themselves, but he wasn't afraid to kind of show us what that was about on stage, so that was really cool.

[19:30] Pamela Shandrow: And I definitely, if you at least do one thing, do a Google search on that guy.

[19:35] Ebony Vines: Calfin is spelled K-A-L-F-I-N.

[19:38] Pamela Shandrow: Robert Calfin.

[19:39] Ebony Vines: He's amazing.

[19:42] Pamela Shandrow: Dania Krupska, who is the original choreographer, and she grew up in Falls Church or uh River Falls, Massachusetts.

[19:49] Ebony Vines: So it's I was not expecting that when I first read that.

[19:53] Pamela Shandrow: I was like, oh, okay.

[19:54] Ebony Vines: Um she this woman.

[19:57] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, wow.

[19:58] Ebony Vines: She made her Broadway debut in the original cast of Agnes DeMille's Oklahoma in 1943.

[20:04] Pamela Shandrow: Wow.

[20:05] Ebony Vines: Later taking over the role of Dream Lori.

[20:08] Pamela Shandrow: She quickly became one of DeMille's regular assistant choreographers, working on Allegro, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, Out of This World, and The Girl in Pink Tights.

[20:18] Ebony Vines: Before switching to choreography full-time, uh, Krupska also appeared on Broadway in The King and I and the original Can Can in 1953.

[20:29] Pamela Shandrow: Krupska's best known work as a choreography is The Most Happy Fella in 1956, for which she received her first Tony nomination.

[20:38] Ebony Vines: She also staged the revival in 59.

[20:42] Pamela Shandrow: And none of her other Broadway shows were hits, although she earned another Tony nomination for the happiest girl in the world in 1961 and also staged the 1962 production of Fiorello.

[20:54] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[20:55] Pamela Shandrow: These were the ones that were fired.

[20:58] Ebony Vines: So now let's talk about the ones I know.

[21:00] Pamela Shandrow: Let's talk about the two that replaced them.

[21:02] Ebony Vines: Jerry Adler.

[21:04] Pamela Shandrow: I know.

[21:04] Ebony Vines: Jerry Adler.

[21:06] Pamela Shandrow: You might recognize the name of the New York Adlers.

[21:10] Ebony Vines: His cousin was Stella.

[21:12] Pamela Shandrow: What's happening?

[21:15] Ebony Vines: This is a theater family, Jewish family.

[21:18] Pamela Shandrow: Grow up grew up in Brooklyn.

[21:20] Ebony Vines: All like it theater touched every aspect of these this family's life, right?

[21:25] Pamela Shandrow: Those are like the Newmans.

[21:27] Ebony Vines: We have like six Oscars between them or something, bananas like that.

[21:31] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[21:31] Ebony Vines: He made his directing debut with the 1974 Sammy Khan review, Words and Music, and also directed the 1976 revival of My Fair Lady, which garnered him a Drama Desk Award nomination.

[21:43] Pamela Shandrow: And then he did the ill-fated 1981 musical, The Little PRINCE and the Aviator.

[21:48] Ebony Vines: Oh, bless him.

[21:50] Pamela Shandrow: I know.

[21:50] Ebony Vines: He did, I mean, he witnessed his share of flops though, including Drat the Cat, which I believe is on our list.

[21:56] Pamela Shandrow: This is all these are all the ones that I made notes about.

[21:59] Ebony Vines: Drat the Cat, which he thought had some nice tunes.

[22:02] Pamela Shandrow: I just thought that was funny, so I added it.

[22:05] Ebony Vines: Um he did a 1976 revival of Hellza Poppin, starring Jerry Lewis.

[22:12] Pamela Shandrow: And he also did Richard Rogers' final musical, I remember Mama.

[22:16] Ebony Vines: He's an actor as well, and he might be remembered more for his work as Howard Lyman in The Good Wi.

[22:23] Pamela Shandrow: Um, but he has acting credits for days.

[22:26] Ebony Vines: What like the TV show?

[22:28] Pamela Shandrow: Uh-huh.

[22:29] Ebony Vines: He's still with us.

[22:31] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[22:32] Ebony Vines: He's he's a much older man now.

[22:34] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[22:35] Ebony Vines: I think I mean they said they gave him credit for doing uh the role of Jeffrey Tambor's father in Transparent as well, which I think would be more current than The Good Wife, but I thought the good wife, um, he had a recurring role on that show, so that's something that people might remember.

[22:51] Pamela Shandrow: But like I said, I mean, he's he's done his list of credits was enormous on Wikipedia.

[22:58] Ebony Vines: Um, Billy Wilson, so that's the new director, Jerry Adler.

[23:02] Pamela Shandrow: Billy Wilson is now taking over as the choreographer.

[23:05] Ebony Vines: And here's his credits on Broadway for choreography, just for choreography.

[23:09] Pamela Shandrow: This doesn't include any of the performance.

[23:11] Ebony Vines: Bubbling Brown Sugar, Guys and Dolls, which he also directed, Stop the World I Wanna Get Off, and Yu B.

[23:19] Pamela Shandrow: Those were before LITTLE PRINCE.

[23:21] Ebony Vines: After LITTLE Prince were Merlin and Dance a LITTLE Closer.

[23:25] Pamela Shandrow: Now, with the exception of Bubbling Brown Sugar, none would be considered successes.

[23:30] Ebony Vines: And in fact, they're beloved.

[23:32] Pamela Shandrow: Absolutely.

[23:33] Ebony Vines: They should I I mentioned though, again, that in fact they should probably be added to the list of future episodes because I think that they would be kind of cool to do.

[23:42] Pamela Shandrow: There's no denying that the level of talent, both of the original and replacement director and choreographers is astronomical.

[23:50] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[23:51] Pamela Shandrow: To add to the pot of talent, the production starred Michael York as the aviator.

[23:56] Ebony Vines: Holy jeez.

[23:57] Pamela Shandrow: And Anthony Rapp is the little prince with Ellen Green in a supporting role.

[24:02] Ebony Vines: What is happening?

[24:03] Pamela Shandrow: I know I've said it by time.

[24:05] Ebony Vines: But what is happening?

[24:07] Pamela Shandrow: I got this all out of my system while I was doing this thing.

[24:11] Ebony Vines: The show closed, parenthetically, on January 17th, 1982, after 20 previews.

[24:19] Pamela Shandrow: But the idea that it closed without ever having an official opening is a bit laughable.

[24:24] Ebony Vines: It never officially opened.

[24:27] Pamela Shandrow: Wait, wait, why?

[24:30] Ebony Vines: It well, I'll get into some detail, but let's talk about the actors first.

[24:35] Pamela Shandrow: Michael York so shocked.

[24:36] Ebony Vines: I know it is shocking.

[24:38] Pamela Shandrow: I know.

[24:39] Ebony Vines: So Michael York, I know him best from playing opposite Liza Minelli as Brian in Cabaret.

[24:46] Pamela Shandrow: But he is a hugely successful English film and TV actor.

[24:51] Ebony Vines: He didn't really do a lot with musicals.

[24:54] Pamela Shandrow: This was his only real musical because even in cabaret, he wasn't a singer.

[24:58] Ebony Vines: Right.

[24:59] Pamela Shandrow: Um, but if you want to get into like fall down another rabbit hole, you can go through his credits on uh on either IMDB or on Wikipedia.

[25:08] Ebony Vines: He's I mean, he's great, he's amazing.

[25:10] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, yeah.

[25:11] Ebony Vines: Anthony Rapp's, obviously Rent.

[25:14] Pamela Shandrow: Yes.

[25:14] Ebony Vines: And Ellen Green, LITTLE Shop, hello.

[25:17] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah.

[25:18] Ebony Vines: But uh a lot of other films too.

[25:20] Pamela Shandrow: We've or um films and musicals, because she did LITTLE Shop on Broadway and then brought it to the screen.

[25:27] Pamela Shandrow: But she's also done some TV and stuff like that. We've talked about though, she never really made a success on Broadway. Um, her successes came on, you know, in the screen more often than not because the stuff that she was involved with, aside from LITTLE Shop of Horrors, were flops. We've talked, we've done I think two now, two episodes besides this one that she's been a part of. As a little side story that's sort of, um, because Ellen Green is in this one that comes from like the research I just did on the next episode. But, and you probably know this, right? So in the musical, I'm gonna do Faith Prince is in it. Okay, you love Faith Prince. I know you love her so much. So in, uh, one of the interviews I was watching, she actually was going to play the part in LITTLE Shop before Ellen Green.

[26:23] Ebony Vines: Wow.

[26:25] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, I think I did know this, but kid telling. Oh, and so then when, uh, I think it was, oh, was it when the reviews came out or something for LITTLE Shop and she was like still in a different show at the time? Like her friends were like, don't, like trying to hide it from Faith because they were afraid she'd feel bad. And she was like, No, no, guys, it's her time. It's her time. And so then, um, Saku was hosting, he was like, have you always been like that? Like, how do you just, how did you just know? Is it looking back 20 or 30 years later? And she was like, Well, my name is Faith.

[27:07] Ebony Vines: Oh, I love that.

[27:09] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. You know, and it does make a difference when you are in a show at the time. So like you're, you're, I'm busy. I'm, I'm, I am creating not necessarily the thing that they're talking about, but I am creating, I'm doing something else. So that there is a kind of solace there.

[27:26] Ebony Vines: Yeah, yeah.

[27:27] Pamela Shandrow: And then just getting back on your feet and auditioning for the next thing. And she said she felt like she wouldn't have got, she wouldn't have been able to do Adelaide if she got that part, 'cause she said, uh, like, um, she said she felt like maybe people would have thought it was too on the nose.

[27:42] Ebony Vines: Oh, to go from that part to Adelaide.

[27:45] Pamela Shandrow: So, yeah. And I'm real glad she played Adelaide. Real glad.

[27:49] Ebony Vines: I know.

[27:50] Pamela Shandrow: Me too. Me too. I am going to quickly, I accidentally closed out my Safari page. Sorry. In the meantime, I have another Ellen Green thing I love. Friends, uh, that listen to the podcast. I don't know if you all have ever watched the television show Pushing Daisies.

[28:11] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[28:11] Pamela Shandrow: If you have not, I highly recommend checking it out. Uh, I believe it's on Hulu or Prime now, which is super exciting. Um, Ellen.

[28:21] Ebony Vines: I read them on DVD.

[28:23] Pamela Shandrow: Such a great show. Love that show. It's absolutely beautiful, yeah, and it's fun, and it's sweet, and it's delightful.

[28:31] Ebony Vines: Yes, plays sisters, and they're just delightful.

[28:34] Pamela Shandrow: Delightful. And I, uh, I watched the reason I got into it actually is because I would go to Blockbuster and randomly rent a movie that I liked the cover of when you could still do that kind of thing.

[28:45] Ebony Vines: I miss that.

[28:46] Pamela Shandrow: I know, me too. I'm like, I don't know, this looks good. Okay, let's get it. So I rented a movie called The Fall, starring Lee Pace, who also is the lead in Pushing Daisies.

[28:56] Ebony Vines: He fell in love with him.

[29:01] Pamela Shandrow: I have such a crush on Lee Pace. Like to the point where like when I would see him, I would get a little fluttery. Like it was so dumb, but I loved it, right? So then I was like, well, I have to watch all of Pushing Daisies because he's adorable.

[29:15] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[29:16] Pamela Shandrow: And then the woman, and I can't remember her name right now. I'm so sorry.

[29:22] Ebony Vines: No, no, no, no.

[29:23] Pamela Shandrow: Well, she was in it too, but the lead, the one that's, oh yes, um, spoiler alert, dead.

[29:28] Ebony Vines: Yeah, uh, Chuck.

[29:29] Pamela Shandrow: Chuck is the character's name. I can't remember her real name, but she's on, uh, another show.

[29:34] Ebony Vines: Marchella.

[29:35] Pamela Shandrow: Yes, it's so good. So good. Oh, I wish that there were more episodes, but I think it's done now, and I'm so sad about it. Like they haven't watched, I haven't watched the last, uh, season yet, but then I won't tell you anything.

[29:48] Ebony Vines: But oh, in December last year, I binge watched it with one of like my childhood friends, and then when the third, the third season came out, we texted each other and we were like, oh my, like, it's so good.

[30:00] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, it's so good. So watch Marcella.

[30:03] Ebony Vines: Yes.

[30:03] Pamela Shandrow: How's that for a tangent? And you know, while we were doing that, I remembered that, um, I took pictures of my screen so that I didn't have to have Safari up and running, and that is why I closed it. So life is fun.

[30:19] Pamela Shandrow: Um, I know that I mentioned that I was gonna go into a little bit more detail about why it happened to close before actually opening, and I still will. But before I do that, I want to read some of a message feed on Broadwayworld.com.

[30:34] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[30:34] Pamela Shandrow: Where a person, and this was back in 2004, wrote, Does anyone know about this show? I'd love to get more information. And I love finding message boards like this because it is a wealth of information. It really is. So I've got just a handful of things that people have written. So we're gonna start in February 2nd, 2004, and the username is W O S Q.

[31:00] Pamela Shandrow: Said didn't see it, few did, but the tales were legend and in one case unique. I do know the original director and choreographer were fired either in rehearsal or that preview week. They were Robert Kalfin and Dania Krupska respectively. I cannot remember who replaced them. We know, but that's okay. The most important thing about the show was its method of financing. This is fascinating, and I couldn't find any other information except in this board. Oh man, it sold shares of stock rather than shares in a limited partnership. The producer intended that once the show opened, the shares would be traded on the NASDAQ like any other commercial company. This had never been tried before, nor has it been since. The show was a disaster in previews and was tossed out prior to opening by the Alvin, which is now the Neil Simon.

[31:54] Ebony Vines: I knew I saw it somewhere written.

[31:56] Pamela Shandrow: Now the Neil Simon, or the owners, the Niederlanders. The producer then sued for improper eviction and eventually won. I'll go into detail on that later. It took a couple of years, but the case was closely watched by the entire industry, and it is probable, probably in library copies of Variety. So that's number one. Number two was on the 3rd of February 2004. Isamy is the username.

[32:27] Pamela Shandrow: Okay. The producer was attorney A. Joseph Tandit, who also produced the revival of Born Yesterday, plus other Broadway and Off-Broadway and also regional shows. He controlled the ancillary rights to The Little PRINCE and was involved in the musical film too, although not directly. The LITTLE Prince Productions as a stock offering indeed did finance the Broadway musical in a most unique and never repeated way. But Tandit also threw in his other rights to the title. So the company held more than just the rights to the one musical. It was traded for many years after the musical closed based on the other LITTLE PRINCE holdings. Does that make sense?

[33:09] Ebony Vines: Yes, it does.

[33:10] Pamela Shandrow: Okay. There's a story about it in Not Since Carrie, and that's the only reason I was like, oh, I didn't even look in the book. So then I ran, found my copy of Not Since Carrie. Um, let's see. Tandit later went on to license the rights to musicalize The Little PRINCE to others. Not the same production, but an entirely new score, new book, and new approach. So there are different musical and even opera renditions of the story, just not are not just the failed one on Broadway.

[33:38] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[33:39] Pamela Shandrow: The problem with the musical was that it was neither fish nor foul. It intercut the charming LITTLE PRINCE story with the rad rather turgid and scandalous story of its author's life, which made it less than a family show and not entirely an adult one. It's a difficult mix which didn't work, but a nice score and a great cast. Then we're gonna hear from Cardaman on Like the Spice?

[34:05] Ebony Vines: Not quite because it's not cardamom, it's cardamon.

[34:09] Pamela Shandrow: Okay. Uh, April 24th of 2014. So he says that, or she says the show's producer, Tandit wrote the book called The Lawyer and the LITTLE PRINCE. And the last chapter is about The Little PRINCE and the Aviator. According to the book, they originally hired Julie Tamore to design the set, but she was fired when the original director quit, and the replacement didn't get along with that. Now, I'm only saying this because I found it interesting, but it can't be corroborated. And because she's also saying that the original director quit and wasn't fired, even though it says fired in several other sources, I'm gonna throw a brick of salt at this and just take it for what it is.

[35:08] Pamela Shandrow: But I don't think, I don't think it's true.

[35:10] Ebony Vines: I couldn't find anything else about Julie Tamore and LITTLE PRINCE in the Aviator. However, it is one of those shows where she would like just really have a field day as set designer. Like I think that would be her back.

[35:10] Ebony Vines: No, I don't either, because I'm trying to think like how old she is. She would have been early 20s.

[35:17] Pamela Shandrow: See, that's what like maybe straight out of college, that kind of thing. So no, that's, there's a lot.

[35:23] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[35:24] Pamela Shandrow: So I mentioned it only because I think it's interesting, but I'm not gonna say yay or nay on it because there's a lot that I'm like so, and then this is, uh, oh, I've got two more. Um, this is n, uh, New York diva too, uh, on the 25th of April of 2014 she wrote I was there and it was every bit as awful as everyone indicated the costumes set etc garish and amateurish the book the staging awkward and the actors struggling two things I remember very clearly the musicians in the pit rolling their eyes at what was transpiring on stage and Michael York coming out afterwards and apologizing to those who are waiting for autographs for the whole mess in quotes I have held him in high esteem ever since is what she says.

[36:18] Pamela Shandrow: Uh, and then this is what Wilmington has to say about it on the same day it was a hot mess with no notion of what it wanted to be or how to get there why is it that book, uh, that a book that seems right ripe for adaptation has never had a successful transition to the stage or the screen.

[36:35] Ebony Vines: Yeah, I don't, yeah, well what year was that post?

[36:35] Pamela Shandrow: 2014, okay, because, um, there's a stop motion animation.

[36:48] Ebony Vines: Yeah, that did really well.

[36:52] Pamela Shandrow: I agree. I really liked it. It, but it was also, it's so close to the book's illustrations.

[36:59] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[37:00] Pamela Shandrow: That I think that's why it was so successful. Because it's, if you really, I mean, if you consider what the book is about, it's much more about ideas than an actual A B C through line.

[37:12] Ebony Vines: Right.

[37:13] Pamela Shandrow: So you want to see and you want to feel it.

[37:18] Ebony Vines: Right.

[37:19] Pamela Shandrow: But, and that can be done, certainly. And theater would be a fantastic way to show that, but it's difficult. Like it really does need a mind like Julie Tamore.

[37:31] Ebony Vines: Yeah, I agree.

[37:32] Pamela Shandrow: To bring it into fruition. And then this is the final one. I'm sorry, I cut off their name, but you'll know who you are.

[37:41] Ebony Vines: Oh no, here it is. Uh, Art C3.

[37:43] Pamela Shandrow: Okay. Um, I saw The Little PRINCE and the Aviator. It was terrible. What I remember most was that the stage was mostly inhabited by a huge life-size airplane. It made for very limited staging possibilities. I do think at a few points it was able to wagon slightly upstage and was covered by a drop. But all of the desert scenes were completely dominated by this huge set piece, and the planets were on the end of a cherry picker with the little prince himself being rigged and therefore able to walk around these tiny floating orbs.

[38:18] Pamela Shandrow: It was ugly and pretty unserviceable. I remember thinking the music was very mediocre, and it being a shame because Ellen Green was such a wonderful vocal. Uh oh, has such a wonderful vocal quality. Michael York struggled with his songs. The book, as mentioned previously, had Ellen Green playing with uh both Rose and a new character named Suzanne, The Aviator's Love Interest. It didn't work. Actually, it was sort of embarrassingly bad. If anyone was uh has any additional questions, and then he gives his information. Uh it's inter I mean, it was interesting. I that was another another rabbit hole that I fell down. But it I love hearing from people that were actually there. Now, all of this can be taken with a grain of salt because our memories are very fickle things.

And when you're talking, you know, when you're telling a story about something in 2014, but it actually happened in 1982. Yeah, you might not remember it completely. I think that you do remember whether you liked it or not.

[39:24] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[39:24] Pamela Shandrow: And so for the most part, I think these people probably were truthful to that. They didn't like it.

[39:29] Ebony Vines: Right.

[39:30] Pamela Shandrow: And I, yeah, there's that's not a terrible thing. You know, that's what theater is here for. It's you you either really like something or you really don't. And I think if you fall into the middle, then you don't like it.

[39:41] Ebony Vines: Yes, yes.

[39:42] Pamela Shandrow: So um, going into a little bit more detail on the per on the producer. A Joseph Tandit sued the Niederlander organization, claiming that they had forced him to shut down the production with more demands for money during its final week. He was eventually awarded one million dollars, representing two-thirds of his investment. And in today's money, that is two million seven hundred twenty-five thousand five hundred thirty-three dollars and sixty-eight cents to be exact. So with that's two-thirds, then I don't know.

[40:20] Ebony Vines: I don't know.

[40:22] Pamela Shandrow: Um, so it'd be like 1.5 million would be the total that they did back then. Anyway. No, so this is exciting. I'm gonna read Not Since Carrie.

[40:32] Ebony Vines: Okay.

[40:33] Pamela Shandrow: It doesn't go into a huge whole more detail, but he does he does have a good way of telling stories. All right. The LITTLE Prince and the Aviator is remembered as one of Broadway's most difficult to sit through musicals ever. The fact that Alan J. Lerner, Frederick Lowe, and Stanley Donnen had had little success adapting Count Antoine de Saint Exuperis 1943 classic, The Little PRINCE, into a movie musical, should have said something to A. Joseph Tandit, a co-producer of the 1974 film, who held the rights to the property and produced a variety of stage and film versions of it during the last 20 years.

[41:13] In the early 80s, Tandit got Hugh Wheeler and uh John Barry and Don Black to write a musical stage version of the story. And after the original director and choreographer were fired, the LITTLE PRINCE and the Aviator began Broadway previews without benefit of tryout. In the stage version, which starred Michael York in his only musical appearance, the focus was equally on PRINCE on the PRINCE and on the pilot who is grounded in the Sahara and meets the little refugee from Astro uh from an asteroid. York's character was explicitly Antoine, and the musical uh alternated flashbacks to the Count's life, Count Antoine X Superi. Uh I keep on saying it even though I'm embarrassed to say it. Sorry. Um, but the musical alternated flashbacks to the Count's life with scenes involving the prince. And while the concept was not necessarily a bad one, the LITTLE PRINCE and the aviator proved to be grisly, boring evening of disconnected scenes and unmotivated song cues.

[42:17] Oh dear. No one involved knew until the day before the scheduled January 20th opening that the show had already been aborted. Let me read that again. Not a single person in the cast and crew knew that their show had already ended until the day before they were set to open.

[42:45] Ebony Vines: That's disgusting to me.

[42:47] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Especially if you already knew it. Ugh. There's it's a difference. Like if you're still like trying, you're still struggling to like make it work, and then you just can't, and now it's the last, it's the 11th hour, we just can't make it work. I'm really sorry. Last midnight. You've already made the decision not to continue, and you don't tell anybody.

[43:07] Ebony Vines: Wow, so rude.

[43:08] Pamela Shandrow: Anyway, what was the most interesting thing about this particular debacle was what happened after. Tandit sued the Niederlander organization, claiming that they had coerced him into closing the show by demanding more money than they had originally asked for to keep the show open through the final week of previews. In 1986, Tandit was awarded one million. The jury having decided that the Niederlanders had forced the show to close by making unreasonable demands. The $1 million reward represented two-thirds of the show's cost, and the LITTLE PRINCE and the Aviator became one disaster that almost returned its investment.

[43:49] I exhausted my search for why the heck Robert Calfin and Danya Krepska were fired. There is nothing on the internet about the reason or even the details about like when in the rehearsal process it happened. Or how much of the original concept, if any, was kept.

[44:07] Right.

[44:08] Pamela Shandrow: That was the big question on my mind. I was like, well, like, you know, if they fired them but they kept the material the same, then okay, it's an easier transition. But if all of that had to be thrown out the window in favor for new stuff, that just adds a huge more than just one day postponement, certainly.

[44:25] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[44:26] Pamela Shandrow: In summary, I went back to my high school writing days. I was like, how do I end this? In summary, I believe this production had quite a bit working against it. And even the most talented performers and creatives couldn't scale the mountain of challenges. There was just no way, uh, there were sorry, there was no out-of-town tryout. That's just, we all know.

[44:51] Ebony Vines: We all know.

[44:52] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah. Both the director and the choreographer were fired late in the rehearsal process, leaving a vacuum that even Jerry Adler and Billy Wilson couldn't fix. The theater owners were shisty and committed just below the legal definition of extortion, in my opinion. And it also seems that the original source material just isn't strong enough for anything other than what it was and is a classic children's novel.

[45:21] So I'm gonna shrug my shoulders and say I wish that I could have found more.

[45:27] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[45:28] Pamela Shandrow: There just isn't, it's not available. So it's a bit of a letdown, but at the same time, if you really like look at all of the stuff that we've just talked about, it's it's a thrilling story.

[45:40] Ebony Vines: It really is.

[45:41] Pamela Shandrow: I this whole like trying it out, like I don't understand. Like just don't do the show until you can.

[45:53] Ebony Vines: Like somewhere.

[45:54] Pamela Shandrow: Like try it somewhere. This is what I because he he's coming from film and TV or film.

[46:01] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[46:02] Pamela Shandrow: Where they don't have tryouts. You know what I mean? Like they may open in a a limited amount of theaters first and before they do like a full theater opening for a movie. But you know, it's not the same beast.

[46:15] Ebony Vines: But also, he he didn't have a success in the film version.

[46:22] Pamela Shandrow: Right.

[46:22] Ebony Vines: But the idea, and he didn't just follow through on opening or doing another adaptation once, he did it over and over and over again, and none of them were critical successes.

[46:35] Uh I think too, uh like my my question to to him would also be like, listen, you have a wealth of theater veterans on your team.

[46:47] Yeah.

[46:47] Pamela Shandrow: Any one of them will tell you you should have some type of tryout.

[46:51] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[46:52] Pamela Shandrow: Whether that's off Broadway or out of town, you need to like let the material breathe and sit in front of an audience and like get its bones.

[47:01] Right.

[47:02] Ebony Vines: So, you know, like even if he's come like, for example, the the gentleman whose um brainchild it was to do jagged little pill, he's from film.

[47:15] Pamela Shandrow: But he worked with two like veteran theatrical producers.

[47:20] Ebony Vines: Goodness, that was a roller coaster of emotion and shock and awe.

[47:28] Pamela Shandrow: I know.

[47:29] Ebony Vines: So much awe.

[47:30] Pamela Shandrow: So much shock.

[47:34] Ebony Vines: Wow.

[47:35] Pamela Shandrow: That was fun.

[47:36] Ebony Vines: That was a fun one to do.

[47:39] Pamela Shandrow: Absolutely amazing.

[47:41] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[47:41] Pamela Shandrow: I'm I'm very curious to know why they were fired.

[47:46] Ebony Vines: People can, you know, like I said at the beginning, like we know people can be fired for any amount of reasons, and it's not always um.

[47:55] Pamela Shandrow: I don't think it's ever right.

[47:57] Ebony Vines: I don't think it's ever um a few times we've done episodes, it has been salacious.

[48:04] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, sure.

[48:05] Ebony Vines: But it's not.

[48:06] Pamela Shandrow: But there have also been several other episodes where they just were fired.

[48:10] Ebony Vines: Yeah.

[48:11] Pamela Shandrow: With no reason mentioned. And it just, I mean, sometimes it's just a matter of not getting along well.

[48:16] Ebony Vines: Right with someone else.

[48:18] Pamela Shandrow: And that's that's fine. I mean, we're talking about creative people and as and passionate people. And especially if you're if you're the director and the choreographer, if you if you're cast and you don't gel, if you and the create and the rest of the creatives and producers don't gel, it is a bomb waiting to go off.

[48:37] Ebony Vines: Right, right.

[48:38] Pamela Shandrow: So you gotta nip that in the bud right away.

[48:41] Ebony Vines: It's really true.

[48:43] Pamela Shandrow: Bless it. I wish there was I wish there was like a recording somewhere.

[48:51] Ebony Vines: I know of at least like a concert, you know, version of the music, so that the video that I did find of the overture seems to have been taken from the audience.

[49:03] Pamela Shandrow: So there may be more of that, but it was such a bad recording that I was like, meh.

[49:08] Ebony Vines: So I didn't I didn't look further.

[49:10] Pamela Shandrow: YouTube could have more information though, but it's also it kind of gets mixed up with the other adaptations of LITTLE PRINCE that are out there.

[49:18] Ebony Vines: So I again then it was like, well, unless it says Hugh Wheeler or Don Black, um, you know, I didn't know who I was listening to or like, you know, who it was coming from.

[49:29] Pamela Shandrow: So uh there was that as well. But thanks, you know, thanks for listening.

[49:34] Ebony Vines: Thanks for listening.

[49:35] Pamela Shandrow: Oh, the last thing I was gonna say a couple things, friends. If you have more information, if you're one of any of the handles that Pamela mentioned in this episode, like please email us. You know how to do it. Super interesting this episode. Also, uh, Rob and Kevin, if you guys are listening and you have the score, we'd love to hear uh the music from the show since you know the the collaborators are so incredible.

[50:02] Ebony Vines: Um yeah, I mean, bless it. It's I mean, it's an awesome little story and a lot of an awesome little piece of of Broadway history.

[50:12] Pamela Shandrow: Yeah, yeah, it's really cool.

[50:13] Ebony Vines: Yeah, thank you so much for listening, friends.

[50:16] Pamela Shandrow: Thank you.

[50:18] Ebony Vines: Bye.

[50:19] Pamela Shandrow: Thank you for listening to our podcast, Theater Geeks Anonymous. You can follow us on Instagram and Twitter at T G A B Way and on Facebook at Theater Geeks Anonymous. And if you want to tell us how much you love us, or you have a great story about one of the shows we've talked about, drop us a note at T G A B Way at Gmail.com. Until next time, geeks!