This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:08] Meghan: Hey everyone, welcome to Thesis on Joan.

[0:10] Harrow: I'm Harrow, they/them.

[0:12] Meghan: And I'm Meghan, she/her.

[0:14] Meghan: Thesis on Joan is a podcast dedicated to amplifying voices from the LGBTQ+ community in the New York performing arts scene and examining the industry from a queer perspective.

[0:24] Harrow: Join fanqueers and theatre professionals, Meghan and I as we sit down with groundbreaking theatre folk from Brooklyn cabaret performers to people backstage and on Broadway.

[0:32] Meghan: For many queers, theatre has been an escape.

[0:35] Harrow: This podcast looks to have open conversations on where we've come from and where we're headed as a community while queering the canon along the way.

[0:44] Meghan: And today we're sitting down with Sulu LeoNimm.

[0:44] Harrow: Sulu LeoNimm works at Theatre of the Oppressed NYC with me as a joker and as program director.

[0:55] Harrow: Most of the rest of their time is at home in Flatbush with their partner Spark and parenting two small kids.

[1:01] Harrow: Sulu has been an actor, director, and theatre maker.

[1:05] Meghan: Hey Sulu, welcome to the podcast.

[1:07] Sulu LeoNimm: Hi, thanks for having me.

[1:08] Harrow: Yeah.

[1:09] Meghan: Thanks for being here.

[1:10] Meghan: So Sulu, we always start by asking our guests to share their name, pronouns, and if there's anything else you would like to share about how you identify.

[1:19] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah, I uh my name is Sulu. I use they/them pronouns. Um I identify. Uh I grew up in Jersey. My parents are from England and Thailand and came right before they had me as a baby. Um and I and gender-wise as non-binary.

[1:40] Sulu LeoNimm: Um as a parent. Huge part.

[1:46] Harrow: Yeah.

[1:48] Meghan: Awesome.

[1:49] Meghan: So you started doing theatre, doing more like avant-garde work with clowning and masks, Suzuki and other physical theatre. How did you get interested in that style of theatre?

[2:00] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah. Well, that start kind of came like right after right as I was leaving college. And I so I'm another way I identify, I'm 40 years old. I think I'm at the point of my life where I'm reflecting, like, you know, what is something that was about me and my interests, and then also like just what was part of how the world works around me.

[2:25] Sulu LeoNimm: Um, and specifically to that question, it feels like when I was in high school, I look back, I was cast as an animal, a strange creature, a role for drag, um, a foreigner. Um, so as a you know, Asian perceived person in a predominantly white space, like roles that were not the ingenue.

[2:49] Sulu LeoNimm: I remember being in high school and like just wanting to have one of those um roles in Midsummer and then not getting cast. Um and so like I I do feel like that led me to like explore spaces where uh gender and identity were like a lot more like creative or not the primary point of the role.

[3:15] Sulu LeoNimm: It like things like um physical theatre, um, things like puppetry, um, all and and then also to be in spaces, like the strongest link for me was that like I was um collaborating with people in college, and we weren't using texts that other people wrote.

[3:33] Sulu LeoNimm: We were creating devised work, um, and that meant that our roles were all kinds of things and not one particular character. Um, and so going into from devised work led me into the spaces that I worked in beyond college. Uh and the that those kinds of roles, it was very exciting to me.

[3:55] Sulu LeoNimm: I love collaborating. I loved being in an ensemble. I loved the physicality. Uh, I love playing animals. Uh so it was a really great fit um for me and the kinds of things I loved exploring where I felt most creative.

[4:11] Meghan: Do you have a favorite animal you play?

[4:15] Sulu LeoNimm: I was a turtle in two plays where I um could you know folded my knees, like lay on my my stomach, folded my knees, um, folded my arms, and and would propel myself slowly um forward across a stage if I was inside.

[4:33] Sulu LeoNimm: I was also in a play that we did outside on concrete, so I had to build myself costume pieces.

[4:38] Meghan: Wow.

[4:39] Sulu LeoNimm: Or I could drag my body across concrete. But I did love being a turtle.

[4:44] Meghan: Was this a continuation of the same turtle story, or is this two separate turtles?

[4:49] Sulu LeoNimm: It was two separate turtles. I think we were just like, you know, you have one devised work where it happens, and then you have another one where it's like, well, this seems like a good thing to bring back.

[4:59] Meghan: That's so funny.

[5:00] Harrow: Uh, knowing you with working with you for the last three years, I would not choose a turtle for you, but yeah.

[5:05] Sulu LeoNimm: That's awesome.

[5:06] Harrow: And kind of going off of that, can you tell us a little bit more about your time doing drag and how you explored gender expression and performance?

[5:15] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah, I think that I first was interested in doing drag in my senior year of high school. I was cast as El Gayo in The Fantasticks. Um, and I think I was I was a very good student in school.

[5:32] Sulu LeoNimm: And so I was like, this is a male character. I will play a male character. And something that's really like in my brain is that essentially my theatre teacher had a um cast meeting that wouldn't work.

[5:51] Sulu LeoNimm: Um and the thing that I remember is that like he asked people to look at me and and say, like, what what do you see? And people were like, and named features that were female.

[6:03] Sulu LeoNimm: And so I guess it ended up being like a vague space, a tall person in a long sweeping jacket who flirted with the girl.

[6:13] Sulu LeoNimm: Um but I was disappointed and frustrated. And then, you know, as I went through college and and out, um, especially just out of college, I collaborated with a dear friend of mine, Rafi Seufer.

[6:25] Sulu LeoNimm: Um, and we did these strange cabarets in the backs of bars in in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Um, and one of the things we did was a mashup of The Mikado and Miss Saigon, um, where he was essentially in a kimono with the the makeup, and I was um mustache and uh that like like soldier garb.

[6:53] Sulu LeoNimm: Um and I had so much fun in in improvising and bar spaces, flirting with people. Um, um especially like that edge, because in so many spaces, I I think most of the people in the bar didn't know what was gonna happen.

[7:09] Sulu LeoNimm: Um, it wasn't like here's a drag show, it was more like here's weird performances. So there were a lot of people who had never seen drag and did not necessarily know if it was drag.

[7:20] Harrow: Um so they weren't like specifically gay bars.

[7:24] Sulu LeoNimm: No, no. Um, they were bars that would open up their back room for, you know, like, oh, you want to do your thing as long as we get the tab.

[7:33] Sulu LeoNimm: Um and uh and yeah, I think I, you know, I loved uh putting on a mustache, uh like a real big um real big one.

[7:45] Sulu LeoNimm: And uh and there was something, you know, like exciting for me. Miss Saigon was the first Broadway show I saw when I was a teenager.

[7:54] Sulu LeoNimm: Um, and so to mess with it um and look at it in other ways uh was you know, we weren't doing whole productions, but just to take the bits of the material um that were embedded in my brain anyway and play with it was fun.

[8:07] Sulu LeoNimm: Um and and the gender performance was fun.

[8:11] Sulu LeoNimm: Um I actually, oh my goodness. I I don't think this was really fair, but I won a drag competition at the Montreal Fringe Festival.

[8:23] Meghan: Oh my gosh.

[8:24] Sulu LeoNimm: Wow. I don't think I was supposed to be competing.

[8:29] Meghan: Wait, I think they had made a rule that there were no drag kings.

[8:35] Sulu LeoNimm: Wait, why is that a rule?

[8:36] Meghan: That's terrible.

[8:38] Sulu LeoNimm: I don't know. I just know that this was when uh my partner and I were on tour.

[8:45] Sulu LeoNimm: Um and we were performing together. They came to recruit people, and I think they were trying to recruit Spark, who did was often a drag queen then, maybe had been one before, uh, but had said the invitation in front of both of us.

[9:04] Sulu LeoNimm: Um and Spark didn't want to, and I did. And I think that they um didn't, you know, how are you gonna say no?

[9:11] Sulu LeoNimm: So I think what was unfair was that like I was the only drag king.

[9:16] Sulu LeoNimm: Um I wore a giant mustache and tiny red shorts and had this whole like uh jock getup going on, and I had an amazing kind of partner competitor with the the the drag queen who was competing with me who helped me do a keg stand, and I then like pretended to eat me out uh while I was upside down while she was holding my legs in the air.

[9:45] Sulu LeoNimm: So it was just um I just uh you know, a height of the drag performance that happened to me while I was on tour.

[9:54] Meghan: Sounds like you earned it.

[9:55] Sulu LeoNimm: It doesn't sound unfair. It sounds like you deserve to win that.

[10:00] Sulu LeoNimm: Thank you.

[10:01] Meghan: When you did the drag show with Miss Saigon, did you play like the engineer or how did how was that?

[10:07] Sulu LeoNimm: It was more like no, it was I guess uh John or like the a soldier character in relation to to my friend's character.

[10:15] Sulu LeoNimm: Um I will I actually I would enjoy embodying the engineer. Such a great role.

[10:23] Sulu LeoNimm: It's too bad that there are no Asian people who could have played it, you know.

[10:27] Meghan: Well, the reason why I think about it often is because as I, you know, I said I saw that show with my I I saw it when I was a teenager.

[10:33] Meghan: I saw it with my family.

[10:35] Sulu LeoNimm: Um which I my father's from Thailand, he grew up in Bangkok.

[10:41] Sulu LeoNimm: Um I think he was heavily disapproving of how Bangkok is portrayed.

[10:45] Sulu LeoNimm: Um but my sense was that he really enjoyed the engineer, like taking the engineer at face value.

[10:53] Sulu LeoNimm: Like, yeah, blonde, limousines come to America, like uh, so that's what I continue to process around that role.

[11:05] Meghan: Wow. Fascinating.

[11:06] Meghan: Yeah.

[11:08] Meghan: Um, okay, speaking of touring with your shows, we have to mention Peg-ass-us, uh, which is described as a romantic sex ed burlesque.

[11:21] Sulu LeoNimm: You created and performed around 2011, 12-ish, um, with your real life spouse.

[11:27] Sulu LeoNimm: And you describe it as a melt your heart, sweet, get you wet, sexy, pure pants funny, burlesque love story.

[11:35] Sulu LeoNimm: A charmingly mismatched real life couple used puppets, sing-alongs, and comedy to guide audiences through the ins and outs of pegging, exploring the connections between sexuality and identity, and deliver the sexual education everyone deserves.

[11:51] Meghan: I mean, how do we see this show?

[11:56] Harrow: Bring it back.

[11:57] Meghan: Bring it.

[11:58] Meghan: That's a that's fascinating.

[12:00] Sulu LeoNimm: Bring it back.

[12:01] Sulu LeoNimm: Um, I mean, are you are you legitimately asking if you you will ever see it again?

[12:05] Meghan: Yeah, sure.

[12:06] Sulu LeoNimm: I mean, I have a friend.

[12:09] Sulu LeoNimm: Um, I don't know.

[12:11] Sulu LeoNimm: Uh I think, you know, and we have talked, I think we we created it.

[12:16] Sulu LeoNimm: We took it on um, we took it to fringe festivals and then did a couple other years of not exactly a tour, but performing it at different spaces um when we could get gigs.

[12:30] Sulu LeoNimm: And when I thought about bringing it back, I I think we both thought, like, oh, well, we'd first have to do the work of updating it.

[12:38] Sulu LeoNimm: And part of that is just that like so much has shifted in how people talk about gender and and sexuality.

[12:45] Sulu LeoNimm: Um that I imagine that however we engage people around that, we'd want to we want to shift.

[12:51] Sulu LeoNimm: But also like our own gender identities have shifted a bit since we performed in that.

[12:59] Sulu LeoNimm: Um and we want to like something that something that was integrated in that show is that we were presenting a version of ourselves, we used our names, um, and it was uh the arc of it was like you know, us trying to understand each other while also telling bits of our story to the audience.

[13:20] Sulu LeoNimm: Um, so yeah, I don't somebody was somebody once asked us, is there gonna be a part two? Um and uh I I haven't you know we have embarked since on uh on parenting, which shifts our the rhythm of our lives in in terms of like ability to perform in the evenings. Um so it's all kind of TBD.

[13:47] Meghan: Sure. But how how was the show received and the original incarnation of it in 2011-2012?

[13:53] Sulu LeoNimm: You know, it depended on the location because we um I think fringe festivals, we certainly hyped it up as you know, sexy, edgy, um, and and educational. Like we were we were trying to engage people very sincerely in like please think about what you allow yourself to do, um, and who's give you who's taught you what to do, like what are the rules and why. Um and people responded to that. We became the you know, the show about that thing, you know, we're gonna talk about butt sex. Um, you know, but it's quote, the guy, oh um. And I um I think we used packets of lube as as handouts. I say I think because the year previous, um, I was touring a show with my friend Erica Kate McDonald, her show about her sexual identity that was called Fluid, where we also handed out lube packets.

Um, but so um, you know, people showed up, they were ready to be um uh excited. Um I know there was at least one time where somebody brought a first date. People were intentionally coming with their partners. Um and then there were other spaces where we got the opportunity to perform in places that were already embedded in the culture of teaching people about sex and sexuality, um, kink spaces. And so uh when and or even you know, we had a performance at Brown University that was hosted by the students at Brown who were trying to get people educated, excited, informed. Um, and so those responses were I think we were very nervous about that because we felt in that context, like we're the newbies.

Why are we even talking to you? And there was a mix, like I think there was very deep appreciation that like there would exist a show to like represent people and share with people. And then there was just like general excitement. Like I remember like the brown audience, they just snapped the whole way through, and then they raffled off dildos.

[16:37] Meghan: That's what they should do for Broadway cares instead of like huge documents t shirt.

[16:42] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah. There was only, you know, like people definitely asked about like anger or walkouts or you know, shutting the show down. Um there was only one um one time we were performing at the fringe festival in Boulder, Colorado. Amazingly, um, we were hosted in a Methodist church. Um, so as soon as I got that location, I was like, please, I like explicitly state in our application, like this show has nudity and sexually explicit content. Does the venue know that? And the venue was like, yep, we know. Um, but there was a guy who showed up and like within the first five minutes walked out and wrote a letter, but it didn't shut it down. Um, and then I remember we booked a show at a bar in Portland, Oregon. And it was very clear to me that the person who booked us hadn't really come like she worked for the venue, but like maybe hadn't thought through what that meant because the stage was within window view of the street.

[17:49] Meghan: Oh wow.

[17:50] Sulu LeoNimm: Um and I also like I forget now, but I I recall that Portland has has very specific rules about like nudity in relation to bar space. Um and I just remember the amazing bouncer, like as I I could see his face kind of absorbing as we text what was about to happen, and then as the show started, like making sure he was as close to the door as possible. Um, so it's one of those things where you know, like the the tech writer, the details, you really try to tell everybody exactly what to expect, and it doesn't always go as planned. But wow.

[18:25] Meghan: Yeah. What was it like creating that show with a romantic partner? And have you talked about I know you said it's been hard now because your parents, but would you want to do it again?

[18:36] Sulu LeoNimm: Uh we so we met at the fringe festival um where I was touring with my friend Erica. Um, and doing a show with a brand new romantic partner was definitely on my checklist of don't do that. Um, but it was happening. Um, and I think what I absorbed from it was that it meant that we had to be very present and very communicative about what was going on because we were also sharing histories, sharing theories about desire, and then figuring out how to craft it into a performance. So it meant things like got very processed in a way that actually felt um a real amazing opportunity, like a gift that we got at the beginning of our relationship. Um it was also really hard, and it meant like that we started arguing about things right at the beginning because it wasn't just like what does this character do?

It was like, no, this is a representation of me. And this challenge, you know, for anybody who's made material that is autobiographical is like, what am I okay with like being semi-fictional or like not including this key piece just to serve the show? Um, which was really, really hard. Um, we also toured, so it meant traveling together in very um, you know, and we fringe festivals put people up in other people's spaces. So we also had to like learn to communicate about needs, learn to communicate about plans, um, strategize together when things went south with the arrangements that the place gave us and it did sometimes. So it was accelerated, I would say.

[20:34] Sulu LeoNimm: Um, you know, we some we both work for Theatre of the Oppressed NYC right now. We haven't collaborated directly in that work um for a while, but we get to riff ideas off of each other. And I think it would be interesting to collaborate with each other again, you know, and maybe even you know that would be what we need right now in our parenting. Because I there's a lot of creative collaborative energy that is going into our parenting right now, but it does have that tinge of feeling like obligatory rather than our creative space. It's really amazing if you're both in a Zoom meeting to watch like one child be with one parent and then run from one screen to the next.

[21:22] Meghan: Yeah.

[21:23] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah. And we're trying to balance, you know, with that, we're trying to be like, well, who gets to have the door closed and who's juggling, right?

[21:30] Meghan: Yeah.

[21:31] Sulu LeoNimm: Oh, so many so much respect to you and Spark for doing all that.

[21:36] Meghan: Yeah. Especially now. I'm sure it's just insane.

[21:40] Sulu LeoNimm: It's well, this is um the these couple weeks have been learning what how they have to be on Zooms or Google Meets for school. Um, which is really hard right now in New York City.

[21:52] Meghan: Yeah. Definitely. And we're definitely gonna bug you some more about parenting questions later. So we'll come back to that. Um, but what made you or what caused the choice to kind of move more away from performance and physical theater into the world that you're in now?

[22:07] Sulu LeoNimm: I think there was part of it that was committing more time to having uh an administrative job at Theater of the Oppressed NYC. Previous to that, I had a day job that was awesome, but it wasn't theater. Um, and it afforded me a lot of flexibility to um take time off for tour, um, adjust my schedule if I needed to show up for rehearsals. And Theatre of the Oppressed NYC at the beginning, you know, still had some of that flexibility, but um it kind of fell more into the rhythm of like having a day job and and trying to balance my energy. Um, and so I was still doing occasional performances in the in its early years. Um, and then really parenting shifted my schedule a lot. Um, Spark and I began parenting as foster parents.

[23:06] Sulu LeoNimm: So that means that we also had a lot of times where we had to be bringing children to appointments. Um, and honestly, we you know, having small kids means there's a lot of work going on at home. So we had a lot, most of our energy was okay, who's home when? Um, and how do we keep that balanced with each other? And then that math means that then, you know, taking a night out of the house. We're either doing things like alternating or you know, making sure it happens this many times a month. And with theater, you know, rehearsals are like, okay, you're you're gonna be in rehearsal every evening for this many weeks. Um, and it didn't feel like that was a good fit for being able to be present for the children in our care, um, and also be being able to balance the responsibilities to each other.

[24:06] Meghan: Um, so yeah.

[24:08] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And you're one of the founding members of Theatre of the Oppressed NYC. How did you find TO Theater of the Oppressed? And what was it about TO that hooked you?

[24:20] Sulu LeoNimm: I had two very close friends who were learning about it. Um, Rafi, who I mentioned earlier actually spent years in in Brazil, um, had worked with Augusta Boral and was telling me about the work that he was doing there in Brazil, and it was a little peripheral to me, it was curious, interesting, but then I was living in Red Hook, Brooklyn, and working with Falcon Works Theater Company there. They have a program where middle school age children write plays and members of the community come together to act, direct, uh, and produce the plays. So I was doing that, and the uh the director of Falcon Works, Reg Flowers, um, started bringing some Theater of the Oppressed methodology into those community spaces, and also brought Concrete Justice to perform in Red Hook.

[25:23] Sulu LeoNimm: And concrete justice was the troop that my friend Katie Rubin had established that was the troop that then grew into the organization that is Theater of the Oppressed NYC. So I was very attracted to the theater of the oppressed that I was experiencing, the parts that were physical and interactive and improvisational, the fact that it engaged the audience was something that I had been looking at in my own work a lot. You know, Peg Ass Us was not just a nice show that people watched. Um, you know, we talked to the audience, um, you know, we asked them to respond to things. And at that point, with Pegasus, what I felt very responsible to do whenever we were performing it was to also have a conversation with people who were doing work on sex and sexuality.

[26:17] Sulu LeoNimm: So we would always have a panel discussion, right? But forum theater, which is part of Theater of the Oppressed, makes that conversation very present with the audience as the experts. And so that's how I met Katie Rubin. She came and did another workshop in the neighborhood. I stayed in touch with her. She did a training. Somehow Spark ended up coming up, coming with me to the training as well. And I asked her, you know, like, how can I keep working on this? And at that point, she was looking at how to expand the Theater of the Oppressed work that she was doing. She gathered some folks who had been in the same training as I had and sat down and talked through the ideas of actually forming an organization.

So we started that, and at that time she had started a conversation with the Ali Forney Center, which is an LGBTQ youth space that provides shelter and services to young people who are experiencing housing instability and homelessness. And I had been doing theater projects to support folks I knew at the Hetrick Martin Institute, which is also an LGBTQ youth space in the city. So she and I ended up collaborating together as a form of training for me with our collaboration with Ali Forney Center, which ended up being an ongoing collaboration. Theater of the Oppressed NYC does two play building cycles a year with young people who are affiliated with that space. So that's how I kind of got into it and stuck around. And because I, in my day job work, had been doing a lot of office administrative bookkeeping, organizing, project management, that is the early role that I also had in the office.

[28:19] Sulu LeoNimm: And you did so much heavy lifting and the like admin paperwork of forming a nonprofit that when I came in a few years ago, I'm like, oh, there's so many good systems and things in place that made it a lot easier. Well, I so my previous work was working with engineers. Um, so engineers are all about the databases and the spreadsheets. Um, and I, you know, I saw that there was an opportunity to bring that over.

[28:47] Meghan: Nice. Whether or not the artists like it.

[28:52] Sulu LeoNimm: And I know some do. I know some do. Can you talk a little bit more about you mentioned the Ali Forney project? Uh, there's some other works that you would like to highlight from Theater of the Oppressed or different things you guys do in the community? I know there's so many.

[29:06] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah, I mean, I am really excited with how we're thinking about shifting the nature of our work. Um, I do think that in the very early stages of Theater of the Oppressed NYC, we thought we most of the people doing the facilitation came from theater backgrounds. And I do think there is an idea in the theater world that if we make a play about something, it will support whatever needs to change about the thing, the problem if it's a problem. Um, as we have been collaborating with folks who have advocacy backgrounds, as we have been trying to use these plays to engage people in conversation, we have identified the need for our own organization to get our own better political education and then use our plays to also support political education, thinking about ways that it's a performance on a stage is not the only tool we have.

We can use the performance in a meeting room with stakeholders, and that introduces actors to politicians and starts conversations that people haven't had before. And so people have said that it can be a way to get people to connect or at least disrupt the barriers real or perceived that people have.

[31:42] Meghan: Can you explain what forum theater is for anyone that might not know?

[31:46] Sulu LeoNimm: Thank you. Absolutely. So it's using a play to have a community forum, but we don't do a play and then have a community forum. Or at least the theater doesn't stop for the forum part. Forum theater is when a group of people create a play that reflects a problem that they or their community are experiencing in real life, and they craft it so that the play really shows an unresolved problem. It shows the struggle, it shows them trying to get their needs met or trying to change something and the failure that happens. And so we have folks who are facilitating the performance, having an engagement with the audience. Those people in Theater of the Oppressed have the title of Joker. And the jokers, when the scene has come to a close, they engage the audience in having a conversation about the play they just saw, identifying the problems they saw, so they can kind of speak that into the space and recognize the work of the actors.

But then they invite individuals to come up and replay parts of the performance, specifically to step into the shoes of somebody who's experiencing a problem and try to do something differently. And we allow the improvisation to play out. When it's done, the jokers facilitate a conversation to identify what happened, what did that person try to do, and how did it change the situation? And the thing that I really value about Forum Theater is I feel like it's a laboratory. We're allowed to come together and try out ideas in different ways, and then mine every improvisation for as much information as possible. Um, so that anybody who leaves the room after the play has some idea about something they could do about the problem in the future. That's like a very that's a brief thing, and I can talk ethic podcasts about that.

[34:05] Meghan: Yeah, oh yeah, there could definitely be so many podcasts about TO.

[34:09] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah. I feel like a question a lot of people ask is why are they called jokers?

[34:13] Meghan: I was wondering that.

[34:14] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah. It references the Joker in the deck of cards. Um, and as it's been told to me, Augusto Boal was thinking about that card being an identity that doesn't belong to any of the suits in the deck of cards. So an idea that that card is outside of the teams, um, and that potentially is like outside of the biases. Um, and I think of that as outside enough to be able to provide a critical analysis of what's going on, because something that is very important in Theater of the Oppressed is a critical analysis of power dynamics. And so I also think about the Joker in relation to gestures and my understanding of gestures being a character that is in a very powerful place, a court, and gets special dispensation to mess with the people in power.

[35:17] Meghan: Mm-hmm.

[35:18] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah. And then I think zooming out just a little bit on TO and Augusto Boal, who created Theater of the Oppressed in Brazil based on Paulo Freire's work, Pedagogy of the Oppressed. They both have many books. They're amazing, read them. And there are many different forms of different kinds of theater, not just forum theater. There's legislative theater, um, image theater, invisible theater, newspaper theater, uh, that's all under the umbrella of Theater of the Oppressed.

[35:45] Meghan: So, how do you think Theater of the Oppressed NYC specifically is different from other theater companies?

[35:53] Sulu LeoNimm: Well, the thing that seems to surprise everybody the most is that we don't have written scripts. Um, and that's because we are largely building off of improv, we're heading towards improv. Um, and it doesn't always serve our needs. Um, I do think people are desperate to start writing down some of our plays, and we should. Um, but how we operate is often bullet points. It's important to know the core of the scenario and any key things that a character needs to say and do. Um, I think it's also, you know, it's specific to us that we are working off of collaboration. We're always working off of people's lived experience.

[36:39] Sulu LeoNimm: And it is important at Theater of the Oppressed NYC that the people who are on stage performing have lived experience with the scenarios that they're playing out. Um, that is something that other theater companies sound very surprised about when I describe it, because there is an assumption that professional actors are acting out other people's stories. And that doesn't really serve our approach to Theater of the Oppressed because when we are inviting an audience member up onto the stage to improvise, we then need every other actor on the stage to be ready to represent reality. And because the improvisation could go anywhere, their life is the research that informs them how to act as their character. Those are the top things on my mind, Meghan.

[37:33] Meghan: Yeah. And I know you must have noticed many things, but oh, definitely.

[37:37] Sulu LeoNimm: I mean, it's amazing to watch a spectactor from the audience come up and like be like, I definitely have the solution to this problem, and then see the actors who've experienced it tell you all the reasons why that wouldn't work.

[37:50] Meghan: Yeah.

[37:51] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah. And it highlights to me how much mainstream TV, movies, theater, um, if it's not informed, well, it may be informed by how these experiences play out in real life, but it may also have an agenda that's different from ours. And so a lot of people are getting the media curated story about how homelessness works, um, about how employment discrimination works. And the most common thing, Meghan, probably we both have seen is that a lot of our spectactors who don't have lived experience of dealing with bureaucracy, um, expect that if they are just nicer and more respectable, they will have somebody listen to them more.

[38:42] Sulu LeoNimm: Um, and that is very common, and that is also, you know, where our actors are able to share that it doesn't their words and their attitudes um changing doesn't really change the obstacles that they're facing. And I feel like because our funding and our budget model are so different from a lot of New York theater companies, like all of our shows are free. We're not trying, we don't depend heavily on individual donors, so we're not really catering to people with big money.

[39:13] Sulu LeoNimm: You know, we still play the like foundation government grant game, but it is a little different than I think a lot of other theater companies and how we are able to survive and sustain.

[39:25] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah, and actually, I was just gonna add so I have been part of a project where we're trying to build a workbook to share the methodology that we're using more widely. I've been figuring out a section to really set expectations around how our approach is different than typical theater. We're trying to figure out how to share that this idea of kind of working hard to one perfect product isn't our priority. So having everybody show up on time to start rehearsal on time, and then getting people in trouble if they don't isn't really our MO, in part because we know that folks who are showing up to our rehearsals are navigating, not having a Metro card or getting harassed by the police on the way, trying to get a job, their job not letting them out when they say they would, and for us to continue to welcome the folks into the space, we devise ways to have flexibility around that while still guiding everybody to get prepared enough for a performance.

[40:43] Sulu LeoNimm: So there's some things like that, like you know, figuring out how to make the play and still welcome people how they are when they show up, being open, you know, not having one director in the room who decides what the aesthetic or the decision is, like really our jokers need to rely on checking in with the actors who have lived through this situation and thinking like we are crafting a version of your life to engage people in understanding the problem. So that's what we need to think about when we're making our creative decisions, and it has to be collaborative, so we're all on the same page. Things like that do set for me the creative process apart from things I've experienced when I've been an actor or director.

[41:29] Meghan: And how do those values and ethics that you kind of discussed happening in the creative space? How does that also happen on the admin side of Theater of the Oppressed NYC?

[41:39] Sulu LeoNimm: I'm grinning because I feel like Holly and I have been exploring this together. When I started working administratively for TONYC, I think I, you know, and I said I came from engineers, and whatever there is also about the culture I grew up in, about things being perfect and exact was a high priority for me. And I think that I personally, in my administrative role, found ways to understand the difference between getting it done right versus getting it done in a way that will serve the needs of the people involved. And then it also opening up opportunities to change our processes and procedures when we identify a need to.

[42:33] Sulu LeoNimm: And also being really alert to how our processes impact people. I joined a panel once where somebody asked me a question similar to this and I described that when we do paperwork for our actors we have a spot on the form for them to give us the name they want us to use in rehearsal and then the name, the government name that needs to be on a check that goes to them because it's a high priority for us to make sure that everything we do is as accurate as possible so that they can cash that check. But it's also really important for us to be able to communicate across our organization what we should how we should refer to people when they're in the room or when we're calling them up and when I mentioned like oh well of course we put the name that people want to use on the outside of the envelope and then the check has the name that will get it cashed there were people in that audience who were like oh and you know that is care to me and I see that happening with my colleagues at the organization is understanding, you know, how do we do administrative tasks but with care.

[43:51] Meghan: Yeah.

[43:52] Sulu LeoNimm: And I think just like offering so many options, like I feel like we don't ever say, like, you must fill out this form this way, and that's the only way you can access this thing. Like, you can also call us and we'll help you fill out the form over the phone if like getting on the internet is hard for you. Like, there are just so many different points of access to our work, or we're trying to make it that way.

[44:15] Meghan: So how does TONYC partner with LGBTQ communities specifically? You already talked about AFC and HMI. Can you talk about maybe like some of the shows and the topics they've created around or any other communities they've worked with?

[44:29] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah, um, Ali Forney Center and Hetrick Martin Institute. We have had partnerships with them over the years where young people are making plays, and some very prominent themes around that that were highlighted in those plays include really access, access to employment, and really how employment hiring is a space where the owner of a company or their HR people just get to write people off from how they look or how they sound.

[45:04] Sulu LeoNimm: Also access to youth spaces has been an incredibly informative theme to me, right? That the spaces that are designed for LGBTQ young people in the city, and I think it really much very much connects to the funding of these spaces. The funding has usually got a lot of demands. They want to know how many people identify this way, have this problem, have that problem, which means that the organizations set up processes with long intakes that are very invasive. And there has there's a high level of procedure that has to happen in the space, and also the spaces are often overwhelmed. And so the young people are have tried to reflect back like this is a space that is supposed to be for me, but doesn't feel like it's for me.

[45:59] Sulu LeoNimm: And that that has been a theme going along, which you know, because we have been collaborating with Ali Forney Center for so long. I have also seen that over the years the folks who saw what was happening in rehearsal and heard how these policies were impacting people, expressed at least to me that they were being were thinking about how to go away and continue to train people in the organization to adapt that way.

[46:28] Meghan: Holly, were there other?

[46:29] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah, I was thinking like specifically about that AFC show where they talked about policies of AFC with like the staff members there, felt pretty powerful.

[46:41] Meghan: Oh wow. Which one?

[46:42] Sulu LeoNimm: Because I feel like I was part of several.

[46:45] Meghan: That's everyone that was in theater row, yeah.

[46:49] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah, um, so there was there was one show in particular that there were scenes that showed young people trying to hang out in the youth space, a funder getting given a tour of the space by a staff member, and that really making the young people feel like they were being put on display, even to the level of being a zoo, and it was a send up really of like how the nonprofit industrial complex and social services impact the people they're supposed to be supporting in negative ways.

[47:23] Sulu LeoNimm: And there were people there in the audience, there were a lot of staff of that organization there in the audience, and the thing is, like I do feel like within these spaces, there's a the staff is a mix. There are people who are there desperately wanting to conspire in some way with the young people. And then there are people who maybe don't feel like that is their priority. I am trying to remember the name of the fictional foundation.

[47:50] Meghan: Oh, it was really There was like a song.

[47:54] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah.

[47:54] Meghan: Y'all are broke.

[47:55] Sulu LeoNimm: Y'all are broke foundation.

[47:57] Meghan: Right.

[47:57] Sulu LeoNimm: Y'all are broke foundation. Thinking about the nonprofit industrial complex and the nonprofit structure, um, and kind of bringing it back to theater, how do you think the nonprofit structure in theater creates barriers and harm?

[48:13] Sulu LeoNimm: Ooh, um, I'll say this, you know, saying that like I know our nonprofit structure, and I kind of get a sense of how that is happening in the theater world, and I see it a little more in the social service world because that's where TONYC collaborates more closely. But just this idea of like a board of directors being an authority over the space. It's very strange to me. Theater of the Oppressed NYC has tried to be very thoughtful about providing compensation when we're asking people to work, and boards are volunteer.

[48:53] Sulu LeoNimm: And we have had awesome board members in the past where I realize that like their awesomeness is based in their knowledge and their experience, and then we really want them to bring that knowledge to the board meeting, and they are struggling to come to the board meeting. And then when there's a problem and we're asking them to do more, like help us handle this crisis, they have their own nonprofit job or community organizing job, right? So it feels you know, if this structure exists to hold us accountable, I am starting to question why we can't pay people to hold us accountable.

[49:32] Sulu LeoNimm: And of course, you know, that like that's the question is like can somebody really hold you accountable if you're paying them. But there's a I think there's a gap of expecting people to do it for free. I think the structure where there is, you know, the hierarchy of staff is very strange across theater and our organization. This idea that an executive director or an artistic director is in charge of the vision. And you know, there are amazing people with amazing visions. What I saw play out as I watched Katie Rubin in that role was that as much as she tried to get people to talk to other folks in our organization, people wouldn't listen.

[50:19] Sulu LeoNimm: They treated the entire organization as her project. They I even saw people tell her when they're like interviewing her how to talk about the organization because they didn't like how she was trying to distribute the credit.

[50:37] Meghan: Oh my gosh.

[50:38] Sulu LeoNimm: Um and so, yeah, there's this culture of like this one special person has made it all happen, that hides all the work that happens around that person, and yeah, the well again, nonprofit industrial complex is entire books and entire podcasts. But I you know, I've been curious. I have had some conversations with people who do work in theater about the tensions between trying to produce the work they're excited about and their subscriber funder base, right?

[51:22] Sulu LeoNimm: So we are fortunate in that our funder base is really, you know, we write in the grants that we're trying to be disruptive around power. So we get to do that. And I realize that other theaters like that that's not what they're they've been given permission to do, so it's a greater challenge for them.

[51:43] Meghan: Totally.

[51:44] Sulu LeoNimm: And you're so right with the I'd never really thought of the director thing, but it's such a call to personality, and I think that's why we see so many of the big companies, they're just immovable, most people at the top, because of that. They've like the press, everyone has just like kind of kept them in that spot.

[52:01] Meghan: So flipping over to parenting, as I continue to bring up. I think it's because I'm an aspiring queer parent, so I'm like, really want to hear from you about this. But our question for you is as a parent now, how has your relationship to theater changed and how can creating theater become more accessible to parents?

[52:23] Sulu LeoNimm: Um well, I feel like I've been kind of grazing the articles in in uh American Theater magazine about this, and I felt like I had to be very tentative about it because it felt painful. It was like, yes, I want those things to be happening. Oof, it's hard to realize that um most spaces are essentially just asking individuals to show up by themselves and get there however they get there and they don't want to hear about what's happening outside of the space and your responsibilities. I mean I think one of the topics also that has just been discussed in this year in terms of talking about how theater is accessible is like the schedule, right? It flabbergasts me to think about how auditions are expected to be at the drop of a hat.

And that's not just about parenting that's also about having a job right? Right. That rehearsals um are so like uh rigorous like it's gotta be every day and then it's got to be all of these hours of a day. And so you know we are all in this holding space where we aren't gathering and rehearsals are happening in different ways maybe over online or not at all. But I am curious if I am producing work outside of T O NYC or get to be on a project with somebody else how a project could be designed so we're we still get to create together but it doesn't necessarily have to be the thing that we drop everything for.

[53:54] Meghan: Yeah definitely it's like impossible. I mean like having a dog and keeping a theater schedule is hard let alone taking care of actual humans like and also just like being able to participate you know and I know people do it yeah go continue to go see shows every weekend or several times a week and and sometimes you know, if I know that they have a baby at home, I'm like, what is the arrangement you have with your partner? Um how does that work? So I know people are doing it. It's just like I know for me, like the rhythm is it has been a bit exhausting. Um and also the you know, the money. It's like trying to see a show, and if the ticket is is more than $30, I still kind of like raise my eyebrows a bit. Which I I know for me is intentional with realizing that like money makes things happen and you can pay people more.

[54:48] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah.

[54:50] Meghan: Okay, so I think we're gonna jump over to Queering the Canon, which is a section we do every show. And you already gave us a great example of queering the canon with your back of the non-gay bar drag situation that you described. Um, but we'd love to hear if there are any other shows from the theatrical canon that you would like to perform in or direct or just be queered in some way.

[55:13] Sulu LeoNimm: Uh you know, this was a challenging question when you sent it over in advance. Um, but I what it what it led me to was that I remembered the play that I wanted to have as my senior project as a directing project, um, which I found by accident in my college library. Um by a playwright named Eduardo Manet, and it was called The Nuns. I didn't end up doing it as my senior project. I ended up acting in somebody else's um directing project. But it's a play that features three or four nuns um who are uh in Haiti uh during um the uprising, uh the revolution. And so they're trying to figure out a plan of escape. And I wanted to direct it with those nuns being in drag and as I've been like trying to remembering it since and as I've gotten to know you know physical theater land I've got to know a lot of clowns um I'm like I want white male clowns to play these nuns who are panicking for their lives um as people take back their land and and the you know I don't remember a ton of the details in the play but they are one of the details is that they are also horrible to each other so it lent itself to the promise of like lots of possible like physical um comedy or violence um you know as well as as um you know something interesting about like panic um in a place where you're not even supposed to be so yeah that was what was came back to me as something that had been a project in my head that I never got to do.

[57:11] Meghan: Oh that sounds awesome.

[57:13] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah I hope you get to do it one day.

[57:15] Meghan: I hope so I would have to reread the text you know like I'm going off of like a 20 year old memory of the text but I love anything with like queer queering nuns yes right always we have one other querying the canon question for you.

[57:30] Sulu LeoNimm: Is there a nonprofit in theater institution that you would like to queer like take all their money and take all their resources and just be like ooh we're gonna give all of this to the queer folks?

[57:40] Sulu LeoNimm: It was hard for me to pick one in part because the the I it when you say that to me it means dismantling work, right? And I would rather just like that that those resources get built. But I was like a little like I I did dream a little of like could Broadway just be queer or like one Broadway space that just is queer. I feel like mainstream population thinks that Broadway is this very queer space, but I don't think that queer people feel that way.

[58:13] Meghan: Not at all.

[58:16] Sulu LeoNimm: So yeah, to have like the giant big production level that comes in a Broadway house that is entirely run by queer people.

[58:27] Meghan: Yeah.

[58:28] Sulu LeoNimm: Yes. Let it be so.

[58:30] Meghan: Yeah.

[58:33] Sulu LeoNimm: And so outside of theater, or it it could be theater, I guess. There's just not a lot to reference right now. What what is your current like queer culture uh obsession or recommendation or indulgence that you're enjoying?

[58:46] Sulu LeoNimm: Well, my long-standing um indulgence is books. Um, and so I am a reader, my my preferences lean towards sci-fi fantasy, and if I can get it, um, that it's queer as well, that's awesome. I think Holly knows that I've consumed most of Samuel Delaney's work, and so something I'm struggling with right now is that like I of course try to find out newer writers um and their works, but because a lot of because of how publishing works, um, you know they maybe have one book out, and I am a like I will read everything by an author person. Um, like that's what I did when I was young with like Tony Morrison and like Octavia Butler, and like it it's just like I'm hungry for at least 10 books to tear my way through. And um as I try to hunt for book recommendations, it's usually like, well this person has one and this book is getting released in 2021.

[59:50] Meghan: Right.

[59:51] Sulu LeoNimm: So if anybody listens and knows me and can send me more recommendations or wants to be friends on Goodreads, uh, I am excited for more to read.

[1:00:03] Meghan: Cool. So we'll move to our queer give section uh where we shout out different orgs um or uh cooperatives or mutual aid funds that support the LGBTQ communities uh and you wanted to shout out trans boxing do you want to talk about that a little bit?

[1:00:18] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah sure um I know I have a a friend who lives in um in Oregon who is a dancer who was visiting last year and who said you know I know this person who runs trans boxing because I was kind of moaning about being a parent and not getting enough exercise. And something I I feel like is a reality of like how I've tried to be physical as well is that like I'm trying to find spaces that feel exciting to me. I'm interested in martial arts and dance and usually those are very cis spaces um or run predominantly by heterosexual men and I can manage myself in those spaces but it gets annoying and so trying to find you know you know I find that more than exercising or attending class I'm spending time on the internet trying to find recommendations of spaces.

So I was very excited when my friend Taka gave me this recommendation. I wanted to check it out, but the logist the the travel logistics and the schedule didn't work until the pandemic hit and they moved their classes online. So I and they they did it also by donation and opened it uh more widely to anybody who identifies as LGBTQ. So most Wednesday nights I have been tuning in and learning boxing for the first time, which felt very cohesive for me in the energy of wanting to hit things. Um but also, you know, and I never thought about doing a Zoom class. And uh, you know, I have noticed, you know, how my strength builds up or how my skills have adjusted since. And so it's really interesting.

They are doing um a hefty fundraiser right now because they got offered a space in Bushwick to set up their as their own gym. They've been holding classes in in boxing gyms, but they're trying to now offer a space um where trans and gender non-conforming people can come and and attend lessons together.

[1:02:27] Meghan: That's awesome.

[1:02:28] Sulu LeoNimm: I'm definitely gonna check that out.

[1:02:29] Meghan: That's cool. Well, I think last but not least, how can our listeners find your Theater of the Oppressed online?

[1:02:31] Sulu LeoNimm: Theater of the Oppressed NYC is at www.tonyc dot n yc. And we have a handle um which is forum theater nyc. Uh I'm also I am on Twitter uh as code NIM C-O-D-E-N-I-M-M. Um and I post there too.

[1:03:01] Meghan: Lula's an excellent tweeter.

[1:03:07] Sulu LeoNimm: I think that's funny because I feel like I'm just like, um, I'm I'm there and I spy, and I I feel like I learn um a lot. Uh and as a parent, I do feel like Twitter for me has been a space to be like understanding and processing what's happening in the world in really interesting ways. Um, even if I can't sit down with people and talk about it or tune into the the video or whatever. I I really do scroll Twitter while I'm putting the kids to bed, while I'm waiting for them to pee or poop. Um, and it it's wonderfully rich.

[1:03:40] Meghan: Amazing.

[1:03:41] Meghan: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for making time for us today.

[1:03:48] Sulu LeoNimm: Yeah, it's a seven.

[1:03:53] Meghan: Yeah, thank you again, Sulu. This has been great.

[1:03:54] Sulu LeoNimm: Thank you both. I'm sure I'll talk to you tomorrow.

[1:03:58] Meghan: Yes.

[1:04:01] Harrow: Thanks for listening. If you like, please rate interview us and share us with your friends. Come back for more interviews, fun queer content, recommendations, and eventually discussions on current theater. We are so excited to hear your queer culture recommendations or any of your ideas on how we could clear the canon. You can call us.

[1:04:20] Meghan: Yes, actually call us and leave us a voicemail at 84545-9251 or send us an email at thesis on joan at gmail.com.

[1:04:31] Harrow: And follow us on social media. We're on Instagram and Twitter at Thesis on Joan. Until next time, keep it queer.

[1:04:38] Meghan: Not that it'd be that hard for y'all to do.

[1:04:46] Sulu LeoNimm: I am trying to remember the name of the fictional foundation. Was it we've got y'all?

[1:04:53] Harrow: No, it um that's great though.

[1:04:56] Sulu LeoNimm: Oh, it was really it was it was less friendly than we got y'all.

[1:05:01] Harrow: It was because it was like you don't have any money foundation.

[1:05:04] Sulu LeoNimm: Or like something like Y'all are broke.

[1:05:06] Harrow: Y'all are broke foundation.

[1:05:08] Sulu LeoNimm: Right.

[1:05:09] Harrow: Y'all are broke foundation. Um we got y'all's from insecure. That's what it is.