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[0:06] Harrow: Hey queers, welcome back. This is our final episode of season three and it's episode twelve.

[0:14] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Thesis on Joan is a podcast dedicated to amplifying voices from the LGBTQ+ community in the New York performing arts scene and examining the industry from a queer perspective. Join us as we sit down with groundbreaking theater folks, both on stage and behind the curtain. For many queers, theater has been an escape, and this podcast looks to have open conversations on where we've come from and where we're headed as a community while queering the canon along the way.

[0:47] Harrow: Hey Meghan, how's it going?

[0:50] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's good. I can't believe we're at the end of this season. It's been such a wild year.

[0:56] Harrow: Yeah, it's thinking back to the spring and kind of mapping everything out. Like before I hadn't even seen Strange Loop yet when the season started.

[1:06] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Now you've seen it twice.

[1:08] Harrow: Three times.

[1:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Three times. Nice.

[1:10] Harrow: Yeah. Hoping for a little bit of a little bit of a little bit total.

[1:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh yeah, because you saw it once off Broadway, right?

[1:17] Harrow: Mm-hmm.

[1:18] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. We gotta tie Trevor Noah with four times.

[1:24] Harrow: Goals in my life to just tie Trevor Noah.

[1:28] Meghan Dixon Thesis: On most things.

[1:29] Harrow: On most things. I think this might be the only thing I can actually tie him on.

[1:33] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Sure, yeah.

[1:36] Harrow: So we were planning to have an interview for this episode, but queers are busy, which is great.

[1:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. We got a lot of yeses and then a lot of we'll talk in January. So season four is already pretty planned out, which is exciting.

[1:54] Harrow: Yeah, it's like such night and day from the beginning of the podcast when you know everyone's like, I'm available, whatever. You know, and now it's like I'm working, which we love. So that makes us happy.

[2:05] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[2:06] Harrow: And we still have plenty to talk about.

[2:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh, always.

[2:10] Harrow: Yes. Um, yeah, and at the end we'll do a little year wrap-up. Um, but first we saw a couple, well, we saw more than a couple, but there's a couple shows we're gonna talk about since we last had our uh our show roundup.

[2:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um so we got the chance to see & Juliet. Harrow, what were you thinking going into the show?

[2:32] Harrow: I was excited. I had seen exciting things about it on social media. I knew there was like a queer non-binary character in it, and I was uh that's a person of color. Uh so I was super excited to see how that um played out and I this was like the music of my adolescence and what I grew up really loving, so I was excited for the score too.

[2:56] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's such like millennial bait, like I don't even think I realized how much so until I got in there and I was not upset about that.

[3:04] Harrow: Oh no. I mean, overall, I'd say I had a great time and I would see it again in a heartbeat.

[3:11] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I would agree with that. And I think um like when I was I don't know if it had just opened or was about to open, but like way, way back 2019 when I was in London for Come From Away, I think it was about to run. I forget, but everyone all I heard about it was it's really a fun time. You should see it. So I feel like that didn't convince me enough to do it. So hopefully our conversation will enlighten people a little bit more of like why it's fun. Why they should see it.

[3:41] Harrow: Yeah, and it is a jukebox musical. It's all the music from Max Martin, uh, with a book by David West Freed. But I would say this is probably one of the most enjoyable jukebox musicals I've ever seen.

[3:55] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I think it might be the best one. I'm trying to think. I don't want to say the best, but one of the best because what I loved about it so much that I'm still thinking about, and one of the reasons I would go back to see it again is how well the lyrics are actually tied to this story, so it feels more like traditional musical theater. Like the songs are not just a sides of like you know this song, this is so fun. It's like this song is actually propelling the story forward to the point where they even changed some lyrics to help that.

[4:29] Harrow: Yeah.

[4:29] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I'd say there's definitely some moments where it really didn't work for me, but we'll which we'll talk about later. But yeah, overall, I agree. I think like this feels very different from like Jersey Boys, where it's trying to really like tell the story of the artist, and it was really refreshing to like not have that like uh standard to meet, I guess.

[4:51] Harrow: And so it's a retelling or it's a telling of Romeo and Juliet if Juliet had not died and what would happen afterwards, right?

[4:59] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So it's a whole original story, and that kind of made it feel like a new original musical.

[5:05] Harrow: Agreed. It felt like totally new because you had no idea what was gonna happen next. You know, it hit a lot of the Shakespearean beats of like lovers entangling and disentangling, and you know, people being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but yeah, like all still very new concept.

[5:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, and I they tried to really put like a feminist twist on it as well, I'd say, which was kind of at the level of like I was like what sixes of like kind of girl power y.

[5:37] Harrow: Um that I wish could have gone like a little deeper, but it was fine.

[5:42] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, the girl power like felt very like when we were kids, like the vibe of girl power, you know what I mean? Wasn't like kind of modern day, more um nuanced that, but um I mean, but it was being delivered by Betsy Wolfe, so I have very few complaints.

[6:04] Harrow: I oh the love of Betsy Wolfe just grew exponentially. I already loved her so much. She's so good, and like I it feel I can't believe someone else played this role already, right? Because it feels like they just made it for her.

[6:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: That's what it felt like. I really appreciated how comedic she got to be. She I she's not like a typical ingenue, and I'm so glad that they she got to showcase that, and you know, of her voice is gorgeous, of course.

[6:33] Harrow: I will say I don't I wish they hadn't had her sing a Celine Dion song for as her like 11 o'clock number, because the she's not Celine Dion, and that's hard to compare.

[6:44] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh yeah. I like forgot what she yeah, she's I mean, she still knocked it out of the park, but you're right. If they give her something that like she could clearly, you know, do better than the recording artist, it might have been better.

[6:58] Harrow: Um she's the best written character too.

[7:01] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Definitely.

[7:02] Harrow: She just has such a like a musical theater voice compared to like a pop diva voice that I think it just felt off to me.

[7:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And that hit a couple times. I feel like that's inevitable, but not as like I'm for me anyway, not as um kind of off-putting as it was in Moulin Rouge, where people were actually like when I was laughing at the song inclusion, it was like with the characters, you know, mostly rather than like, oh, this is a weird bad choice.

[7:34] Harrow: Which is how I felt about Moulin Rouge quite a bit.

[7:37] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I haven't seen it yet. Maybe one day.

[7:40] Harrow: I mean, it's still a fun experience. It's just the music is not as artfully put together as it is for this show, I would say.

[7:48] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, so there are definitely some moments where I'm like, oh, this doesn't work with these singers. With the first time Paulo Zot sang, um I think it's fire work or teenage dream, teenage dream with a duet with the the nurse character, and his his like voice is so gorgeous and this like deep baritone operatic voice that like it's funny at first and then it just kept going, and then I'm like, no, now it's just awkward.

[8:20] Harrow: I kind of I thought it was funny though. I felt like it was it was kind of like man, this guy is a beautiful voice, and I'm sorry that we're all like laughing at it, but it did feel like he was kind of in on it too.

[8:33] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It's true. His second song I thought was gorgeous.

[8:36] Harrow: Um did he sing Shape of My Heart?

[8:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yes, yeah, that would I thought that was beautiful, and I that song too was like one of the many instances where they took something, you know, mostly they're Max Martin pop songs, so they're like very traditional, like pop love songs, but like that was for his son, right?

[8:59] Harrow: That was the context of that song.

[9:01] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[9:02] Harrow: Yeah.

[9:02] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And so I thought there were some cool moments where they showed like the different ways that you could relate these songs to like the real world.

[9:10] Harrow: So or whatever this world is. That was a thing I kept getting confused with. I'm like, where are we? What time period is it?

[9:18] Meghan Dixon Thesis: But it doesn't matter.

[9:20] Harrow: Yeah. Can we talk about the maid character?

[9:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I know Lucy had a lot of ideas about that too.

[9:28] Harrow: That yeah.

[9:29] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Well, she told me on the train, but go ahead.

[9:31] Harrow: No, I thought it was it was exciting to see the nurse character be a woman of color who had a name and who was much more developed than just like Juliet's nurse maid.

[9:45] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[9:46] Harrow: And was like hot.

[9:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Sexy.

[9:50] Harrow: Yeah. I felt weird about the power dynamics. There's okay, we're gonna talk spoilers, right? So I felt weird about the power dynamics between her and Paolo's character who was like her former employer and also former lover, you find out, and there was like no discussion about that.

[10:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like I guess it's better that they end up together in Act Two, and she doesn't work for him anymore. But I'm like, oh, this relationship started in a dynamic that was not okay.

[10:22] Harrow: Yeah, and it's like she clearly I feel like they try to counterbalance that with like she clearly has a lot of like power over him because he's like obsessed with her, but like it's still there's a lot about her that feels that you want it filled in.

[10:38] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like I'm also confused on like her accent choice too.

[10:43] Harrow: Yeah.

[10:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like why is she the only character besides him his he has this like over the top French accent that seems like it's there for comedy right but I hope that hers isn't there for comedy because it's like uh I I don't even know how to describe it like Jamaica Bahamas like regional accent and I I'm yeah go ahead sorry.

[10:43] Harrow: I was just looking at her Instagram and it does seem like she has an accent in life so that might just be like speaks.

[11:15] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So that also made me feel better.

[11:15] Harrow: It's a pregnant Thomas Jefferson situation.

[11:18] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah yeah I it does sound a little I don't know because I was just watching some of her Instagram stories and it doesn't sound as like intense but it just might be because it's not like a heightened theatrical um you know setting. I thought they were gonna get into um imperialism and colonization at one moment because at one point uh she speaks French and Juliet's like I didn't know you spoke French and she's like well and it's like a mystery moment and I'm like oh we're gonna talk about colonization and imperialization of like wherever she's from and the French and that is not exact that is not at all what was that moment was it.

[11:18] Harrow: Yeah, I don't know what that moment was in service of like ooh adults can be surprising like I don't understand what that was there for it felt like.

[11:18] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, it felt like a promise of a deeper show that yeah doesn't exist. I mean, I think it was supposed to hint that like she was in France and then she had this like former lover this for life.

[12:27] Harrow: Yeah. She does have a pretty incredible speech in the second act that I like people actually stopped and applauded for that was really amazing.

[12:38] Harrow: Yeah.

[12:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. Um, but I really yeah, I was really excited for a second and then let down, but it's okay.

[12:37] Meghan Dixon Thesis: That was impressive.

[12:40] Harrow: Also her singing was perfect for Juliet.

[12:45] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I cried.

[12:46] Harrow: Yeah, that was so moving.

[12:48] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, their relationship was really cool.

[12:50] Harrow: And um, yeah, I don't know what else to say about it.

[12:54] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It just felt very genuine, that relationship.

[12:58] Harrow: Yeah, and like to see a woman of color sing that to another woman of color, and like that was very moving, and I felt like rare to see on Broadway in the musical.

[13:12] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, past the Bechdel test, yeah.

[13:17] Harrow: And I love that song too. From I remember listening to that in high school and being like, ugh.

[13:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: There are a lot of nostalgia moments. I feel like you could kind of everyone had like a moment during the show where it's like, oh, this song. You know, you hear like the first chords of a Backstreet Boys song, you're like, I know what this is.

[13:38] Harrow: I found a playlist, I think, of like the songs of & Juliet, but like the original, and I was just listening to that in a car that I was driving the other day, and it was very fun.

[13:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh, I should do that. I should look that up.

[13:52] Harrow: Um, but yeah, we should talk about May.

[13:57] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh, the character of May, who is played by the actor Justin David Sullivan, um, and is like Juliet's best friend that was kind of like added into the story early when Anne is doing her like live rewrites with Will.

[14:13] Harrow: So in the script, May enters and Will asks, like, isn't Mae more of a girl's name?

[14:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Which we hear once we see the character step on stage.

[14:22] Harrow: And then Anne says something about how Will is like the original gender bender with plays, which is yes, I guess, but it was mostly because women weren't allowed to act.

[14:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So I'm like, I don't really buy that. It's not like he actively chose to have men play women in his plays.

[14:39] Harrow: Right.

[14:40] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, and then Anne says, do you think it's up to you to question May's gender or sexuality? Or do you think maybe May is whoever Mae is, and it's really none of your business?

[14:51] Harrow: So I'm like, okay, May's non-binary.

[14:53] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, that made me think May is non-binary.

[14:56] Harrow: But I also was like, but what are May's pronouns?

[14:59] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, not established, right?

[15:01] Harrow: Yeah.

[15:03] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And not, I don't know, we'd have to go through and look, but I don't, I was like listening for it and I don't remember pronouns being used for May, like throughout the show.

[15:12] Harrow: And I think like it feels like this is the general sense of how Broadway is approaching non-binary genderqueer characters right now, where it's like, it's vague, they're figuring it out, we don't label anybody.

[15:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I'm like, yeah, that's cool. That's definitely like people's experience. But I'm like, I also just want like this is a non-binary character, and they use they/them pronouns or ze/hir or like whatever, because I just feel like you are just trying to be the safest, like they're like, oh, we need to leave this open to as many possible casting choices as possible, or like as many interpretations as possible.

[15:45] Harrow: And I'm like, no, I want clarity a bit.

[15:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like, yeah, it just feels a little bit like a cop-out. And also that that line came from, I know that Anne is like the creator in this moment, but that line came from Anne and not from May, you know, on their own, saying, like, well, maybe it doesn't matter, you know.

[16:06] Harrow: Like if it came from the character, I'd be like, okay, I have a much better sense of what this character, uh, how this character is identifying because they told me, not because some woman on stage told me, you know.

[16:19] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So these characters are being essentially written by Anne and um, Anne Hathaway.

[16:26] Harrow: The original.

[16:27] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And it's like, what does this cis white woman from, you know, Shakespeare's time period know about, you know, different like gender identity?

[16:37] Harrow: I don't trust that like she's the expert.

[16:40] Meghan Dixon Thesis: She does not.

[16:41] Harrow: Yeah.

[16:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And the anachronisms and the like, it's clear that we're supposed to kind of believe that it's during Shakespearean time, but it's also like, oh, I don't know. There's a lot of like little props and asides and things that make it very current.

[16:56] Harrow: So it exists in another space that's—

[16:59] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[17:01] Harrow: I love the costumes though.

[17:01] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Costumes are so cool, so great.

[17:04] Harrow: Very like Six reminiscent in times, but just like the combo of like modern streetwear and like Elizabethan clothes was awesome.

[17:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[17:14] Harrow: And those costumes were by um, Paloma Young, who did um, the Natasha Pierre costumes, which were also very like of an old world and also the current world, which I loved.

[17:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So I did love Justin's performance. I think they're a beautiful singer and a beautiful person, and um, it felt really grounded.

[17:34] Harrow: Yeah, and May's character is just so endearing. Like they're so earnest and also like so, I don't know. They're just so kind to Juliet and like a good friend to Juliet, and it was good to see a character that was like that, you know, knowing all the shit that Juliet goes through, I think she needed a character like May, and she needs her nurse to be these grounded, like complicated but like kind people, I guess.

[18:03] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh, we do need to talk about May's first song.

[18:07] Harrow: Yes.

[18:08] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh, they got to sing I'm Not a Girl, Not Yet a Woman, the Britney Spears classic.

[18:14] Harrow: And I was very confused by this.

[18:17] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, I'm just like, they really wanted the song in the show, or they're just like, oh, this song mentions gender, so it would be a good song for May.

[18:26] Harrow: Uh, I think that was my assumption is the latter, and like this is early, right? This is like what, half an hour into the show, and I was like, having so much fun. I'm like, oh no, don't make me not like & Juliet. Like, I'm in, you know, I'm having so much fun.

[18:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I'm like still not okay with the choice because I, I don't know. I think they just need to pick a lane with this character because they keep wanting to be like, maybe it doesn't matter, you know, how May identifies, and they're like, let's give May only songs with really gendered messages.

[19:07] Harrow: Yeah.

[19:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Because their next song is uh, I Kissed a Girl.

[19:13] Harrow: Yeah.

[19:16] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Like there's so many songs that Max Martin wrote. Why are we picking the two like specific girls?

[19:22] Harrow: I don't know. And like, you know, they did a beautiful job, but yeah, and then at the end of um, Not a Girl, they're like, but I'm not a girl.

[19:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[19:33] Harrow: And validating the whole song.

[19:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, yeah.

[19:35] Harrow: So that was one of the instances where it's like, this song didn't do anything to help us understand. Like there's probably another Max Martin song about like not knowing who you are or like trying to find the right path.

[19:47] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It doesn't, I don't know.

[19:49] Harrow: Yeah.

[19:50] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It felt like, you know, one of the many times where you think the audience is, it felt like it could be harmful, you know. It's like if you have someone coming in who is transphobic or just maybe not really understanding what's going on with that character.

[20:09] Harrow: I mean, I didn't either.

[20:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So, and then they're like, oh, you know, this character doesn't know who they want to be, and they like can't, I don't know. It just felt like putting that indecision in that character when they feel so confident in like their identity actually was very conflicting.

[20:28] Harrow: I was a little confused about the love triangle that happened between Juliet and Francois or Frankie.

[20:42] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Mm-hmm.

[20:43] Harrow: Uh, it didn't seem like Juliet was really interested in Frankie or uh, he was not interested in her, but I don't know why then that it was like we're getting married.

[20:57] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[20:58] Harrow: Especially with both of them like trying to find their own independent paths. It was, yeah, it made much more sense for Francois to be with May.

[21:08] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I mean, which is what happens, but it's like, why do we even take this weird messy route to get there?

[21:12] Harrow: But yeah, I mean that is the very Shakespearean structure, right? Like you said.

[21:16] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I like Francois though. He was like an endearing character and yeah.

[21:21] Harrow: He was cute.

[21:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. I feel like for like a rich guy who's like sad he doesn't want to get married to this person that's like a hard person to find, and that I find endearing. So I feel like the performer really pulled it off.

[21:38] Harrow: I think it was a performance. The performance is very like kind of awkward, nerdy guy vibes.

[21:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[21:46] Harrow: And he had a great voice too.

[21:48] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So, oh, and uh, another queer character in the show, Romeo.

[21:54] Harrow: Oh yeah.

[21:55] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And Jackson Walker, uh, you find out big spoilers that he is not dead. And also at the funeral for him, Juliet finds all these like ex-lovers of his that includes people of all genders.

[22:10] Harrow: And yeah, I love that. That was a great start to the play.

[22:14] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I was like, oh my god, Romeo is like the Shane of this world.

[22:20] Harrow: Everyone's just obsessed.

[22:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: It was so good. And the performance I felt like pulled that off. I'm like, oh yeah, I could see how this guy would be like so popular.

[22:30] Harrow: Yeah, everyone's into him.

[22:32] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, but yeah, I think overall, even with the confusing gender situations aside, uh, it's an excellent time at the theater. You have so much fun, and I think it, you know, is genuinely trying to like create a super millennial experience that is accessible to many people.

[23:01] Harrow: Whether or not it's doing that, I don't know. I enjoyed it. I would go again because the performances were so fantastic.

[23:08] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And we also saw the understudy of Juliet and I'd like to see who was fantastic.

[23:13] Harrow: Oh my gosh. How is someone better than her?

[23:16] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[23:17] Harrow: Uh, her name. Uh, we saw Rachel Webb on for Juliet.

[23:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Uh, and it seemed like a very last minute uh, replacement. And she crushed it.

[23:27] Harrow: I yeah, she was amazing.

[23:30] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I was, her performance was, I couldn't believe it. Like intermission, my wife and I were like, how is someone else doing this? It seems like this character, you know, this actor has been like living in this forever.

[23:42] Harrow: It was really good.

[23:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, and I love to go back and see Lorna too. So I know Lucia brought up um, that she was annoyed that like Betsy Wolfe's character has to like save Juliet in the end, which I totally see too.

[23:58] Harrow: And I think that also has to do with the casting of that Juliet's a black actress in this production.

[24:04] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, but yeah, it is very much a vehicle for like Anne to be the hero of the show.

[24:12] Harrow: Yeah.

[24:12] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Lucy was telling me this too on the way home, and how it's like, why does, why is Anne like the white savior of this show?

[24:19] Harrow: And see, Lucy, you're here even when we don't have you on as a special guest.

[24:24] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[24:24] Harrow: It's great.

[24:26] Meghan Dixon Thesis: What would you say overall, recommend, Harrow?

[24:28] Harrow: I think so. I think just like going in knowing it's not gonna, you know, be the non-binary queer representation you necessarily are like completely looking for, but it is the broadwified version of it for now.

[24:42] Meghan Dixon Thesis: But it is a good time.

[24:44] Harrow: It's a very good idea. Especially if you're into millennials music of the early 2000s, and good choreography and costumes.

[24:51] Meghan Dixon Thesis: You'll be—

[24:51] Harrow: And then finally we saw a show yesterday, You Will Get Sick by Noah Diaz, uh, at Roundabout's Laura Pels Theater and directed by Sam Pinkleton.

[25:04] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, and sadly it will be over by the time this episode airs.

[25:08] Harrow: Um, but I do feel like this is a play that is going to be making a lot of rounds at regional theaters, colleges, um, because it's, it uh, and also I guess we have to say too, because this is not like explicitly queer.

[25:24] Harrow: We were mostly going to see it because Daniel K. Isaac is one of the stars of the show, and the character of the main character is queer. I don't know who else is queer involved in the show, but odds are probably someone else.

[25:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Sure.

[25:42] Harrow: And it was a lovely bit to know, or it was like a lovely layer to know the character was queer, but it also really had nothing to do with it. Like, no. Could have been not queer, we could have not known, and yeah, it was just some nice character world building. This was like, I feel like this is a companion piece for me this year for American television. It's like another kind of surreal reality commentary. I think another real joy of it was getting to see Daniel K. Isaac and Linda Lavin together. Like, what amazing onstage chemistry in a very different way than you're used to seeing older and younger actors interact, you know.

[26:30] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, that like intergenerational, well, summarizing the plot, Daniel's character number one.

[26:39] Harrow: Yeah.

[26:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: The actors are numbered one, two, three, four, five. Daniel's character is sick, and he's coming to terms with that, and puts up flyers, posters around the city saying, please call me, I need to tell you something. I'm not ready to tell anyone else in my life yet, and I'll pay you. First he says $40, and then he crosses out and says 20. So Linda Lavin calls and ends up becoming like this pseudo care worker for number one as he's dealing with his illness and telling people about his illness. And her character is hilarious. She's going to night school to become an actor. Her age is not stated in the show, but she's definitely older. You could say she was a senior, and her dream is to be Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz. And it's yeah, it's very that's a very like for her, it's not a joke, you know. Like, this is her reality, this is her dream, and she's saving up money to get a Dorothy dress to really nail the audition.

[27:48] Harrow: Yeah, and it becomes this transactional relationship where Linda Lavin's character is taking care of Daniel's character, and Daniel's like paying her cash for like every single act she does for him, basically. And you can tell that they're developing a relationship, they care about each other, and but even by the end, he's still giving her cash for supporting him. We stayed for the post-show talk back too, and there were a lot of questions about that of like why does she continue taking money from him even though like they're clearly friends now or they care about each other, and like we had talked about how like or do you want to talk about how what you were thinking about it? Because I thought that was really insightful.

[28:36] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, as we were watching it, I thought about this book that we read in Book Club, I think about a year ago, called Care Work: Dreaming Disability Justice, and it's Leah Lakshmi Pizna Samasina. And there's a part of it where they're talking about like how eliminating the like I'm doing you a favor, or you know, different relying on friends and goodwill, and then instead having these transactional relationships can actually be a huge burden off of folks who need care because like, you know, it's clear what we're both in this relationship for, we're both getting compensated, and it kind of eliminates the guilt factor. So that's what I kept playing as I was watching this happen because, you know, number one's at such a strange crossroad, and he has his boyfriend has just moved out.

We find out he was taking care of him when he was sick, so it doesn't seem like he has someone close to him, and this seems like the way that he's been able to find comfort in being cared for is having that transaction rather than asking his sister or someone else out of kind of guilt or goodwill.

[29:47] Harrow: Yeah, yeah. I thought the play was like a great rumination and an exploration of mutual aid and how we take care of each other, and you know, Linda's character wasn't necessarily disabled or identified as disabled, but like she is an elder. And in the talk back, Daniel said that Linda kept saying, like, oh, disability is something that anyone could fall into at any time, basically, right? Which is definitely something I've heard in the disability justice community before. Like, you know, you could get sick, you could get hurt, and instantly be disabled tomorrow, right? So I do think they were she was looking at it like mutual aid, and you know, he was helping her monetarily, but also it seemed like she was really lonely too, and so they were both getting something out of that relationship.

[30:44] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, a lot out of each other relationships. It was refreshing and interesting to see a relationship where an elder is caring for like a younger millennial person. I was thinking if those roles had been switched, like if Daniel had been taking the money from her, I think it would have had a very different for no reason, like just our own societal understanding of like, oh, you're exploiting that older woman, you know, but like having it flipped, you're a little more understanding of both sides, which that's probably a whole other conversation we could have.

[31:23] Harrow: Yeah, I was curious, like how Daniel had so much money that he could just be like shelling it out to her like that. Because it was like it was a decent amount of money he was giving her. Especially if it was gonna become like on a daily basis, that kind of money. And I'm like this so it's talking about capitalism but I want it to go into that more of like what are the realities of his like medical bills and you know he bought a wheelchair at one point in the show like was that gonna be reimbursed like how is he just like have all the funds to like support this I guess and he didn't seem worried about money either I think the way that I read that and now that you're saying that I think I should have thought about it more. I thought like since he knew it was terminal and he was about to die it was kind of like the end of what he had. So he was like you know these are if I'm paying you ten dollars to take a sip of water like this is what am I saving for at this point.

[32:23] Meghan Dixon Thesis: But yeah, yeah it wasn't clear how does he have all this money.

[32:26] Harrow: Yeah because I'm even like if he's like a young millennial like that would run out so quickly.

[32:34] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah could not afford that.

[32:37] Harrow: Yeah even like a few months of that I'm just like no what millennial has the savings to do that.

[32:43] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. I feel like with this show if you would have told me before I went to see it that there was like a Wizard of Oz metaphor through it I would have been like and then like the way that it was done I actually loved it.

[32:59] Harrow: Yeah I saw production photos of it so I had seen the like final the like bow field. Yeah so I knew the big scene change was coming and I knew I saw the Dorothy costume so I kind of knew that was coming.

[33:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh okay.

[33:14] Harrow: I really enjoyed the bird metaphor that went throughout the play too. And like there's a lot of mentioning of birds, especially like giant birds who are gonna like come pick you up and take you away. And as you discover that Daniel's character is like turning into a scarecrow, that makes a lot more sense.

[33:36] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[33:37] Harrow: And like maybe the birds aren't gonna get him because he is a scarecrow. I don't know. It reminded me a lot of The Wiz and like the antagonistic relationship the scarecrow has to the birds in The Wiz.

[33:51] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh yeah. No, that's a good point.

[33:54] Harrow: Yeah. It took me a while to figure out where it was going because I had not seen the Dorothy costume and I was like, oh, this is maybe people like start shedding hay because the birds are gonna use them to make nests. I don't know. And then eventually I was like, oh, okay, this is Wizard of Oz. Once you start singing Somewhere Over the Rainbow.

[34:16] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um and then I read a review where they were talking about how the other characters are also symbolic of the Wizard of Oz. Like the other actor who's always like playing characters who are upset or self-conscious or crying as supposed to be like a cowardly lion stand in. But I didn't really think about that as I was watching it.

[34:35] Harrow: Yeah, I didn't either. We had a revelation moment on the train together about the lion's tigers and bears moment in the acting class.

[34:44] Meghan Dixon Thesis: That was great.

[34:47] Harrow: Um I Diaz probably thought that was uh here. I'll give them something easy so they can put it together.

[34:55] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I will say it did take me a bit to like get my footing with the play as well. Just uh there I think especially with the narrator part of it, um there's I thought it was Daniel who had recorded like voiceover.

[35:09] Harrow: So did I, yeah.

[35:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. Kind of speaking Daniel's thoughts. It made it feel to me like a knot like I was reading a novel because I'm like, oh, I'm getting all the information as if I was like reading his thoughts in a book.

[35:23] Harrow: Mm-hmm.

[35:24] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, it reminded me of some of the like the newer games designs, like indie games, where it's like you're reading it and you have to make a choice kind of thing. But I really liked the narrator because it was so much of the narration was in second person. So it was like very implicating. Um and I think because Daniel's illness was unnamed and so vague, like the openness of it helped you you could put your own specifics into it to find your story and experience. So I thought that was kind of genius because it's relatable to everyone, whether it's yourself or someone you know, you know, it was really easy to like put your layer on top of the story.

[36:10] Harrow: Sure.

[36:11] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I mean, I was definitely thinking about like my worst fear case scenario of like what if this happened to me or like my loved ones or you know, like I was actually just having a conversation with my friend Sam about this the day three days before we saw the show of like, oh, who are the people who we feel like we could call on if we got hit by a bus tomorrow and needed like intense care for a prolonged period of time. And how hard that how difficult capitalism makes that for us, even the people who we would like absolutely show up for, like how much we still have people still have to live their lives because of capitalism.

[36:52] Harrow: Yeah, and how difficult it is, like even with things like family leave, like you know, if we tried to do that for each other we couldn't we couldn't you know even though like we're connected a lot I'm connected with you a lot more than family members and but because of the legal system like I couldn't take family leave to help help a good friend and yeah.

[37:14] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And who does that like how many people does that leave out without community um yeah you know the folks who are not in nuclear families or not connected with their parents because they're queer or trans or whatever you know like you know the people who that's hurting the most and the show title is like a promise right you will get sick. So it forces us to all think of this because we we will have all of us will get sick at some point whether that's you know scarecrowitis or otherwise it it's weirdly it's a weirdly light show for how heavy the topic is yeah and it had a lot of humor in it that was great and I think it was definitely needed because it is such a heavy dark topic um and the cast was was great as well.

[38:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And shout out to the Roundabout education team for a great talk back after that. I have talk back anxiety because I don't know what questions people are gonna ask, and it definitely enhanced my experience of the play getting to hear more about it.

[38:26] Harrow: Yeah, they set up some really great ground rules about, you know, what is appropriate to ask, especially ask, not comment on, to the actors.

[38:36] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I thought it, you know, the questions were definitely the most relevant questions I'd ever heard at a talk back.

[38:46] Harrow: Yeah, it was great.

[38:48] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So sadly, you can't go see it, but I feel like it'll be around. You'll be able to, you can also read it. I bet it would be a very fascinating play to read.

[38:58] Harrow: Definitely.

[38:59] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Okay, so just in time for the holidays, whatever holiday you celebrate, we wanted to share with y'all our action of the episode, which is Trans Santa.

[39:10] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So this was founded in 2020 by India Moore, Kyle Lasky, and Chase Strangio. Trans Santa was born of a desire to center trans care, joy, and giving at a time of escalating violence and attacks on the trans community.

[39:25] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Trans Santa is a mutual aid social media campaign that connects anonymous gift givers with trans youth who are unhoused, in foster care, or otherwise without crucial support they need to thrive. Trans Santa exists to show trans youth that they are loved and supported and that they have a family of people around the world who care for them, believe in them, and want them to succeed.

[39:45] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Research shows that trans youth with supportive families have a 52% decrease in suicidal thoughts. Trans Santa aims to broaden our understanding of family and structural support so that our entire community can experience affirmation and love, even when those close to them may hurt or fail them.

[40:01] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Ultimately, our capacity for love, care, and connection can disrupt some of the structural limits on our survival opportunities and create more space for people to thrive and continue rich trans legacies of social and political transformation. And there are three ways you can support them.

[40:17] Meghan Dixon Thesis: You can buy gifts directly for trans youth with their gift registry links, donate money to Trans Santa and support the future of the project at transanta.com/donate, and comment on posts from trans youth showing support.

[40:34] Harrow: So definitely recommend if you do want to give to Trans Santa. You can check out the link on their Instagram where they've shouted out lists that haven't gotten as many donations, so you can give love to those trans youth who may not have received a gift yet.

[40:51] Harrow: It's also just really wonderful to look through the lists. And I don't know, as a high school teacher, it was cool to see like what kids are interested in and looking at, and yeah, you can help them this holiday season. So we'll link to that in our show notes.

[41:08] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Okay, so instead of doing a queer culture recommendation, I was inspired by one of my favorite podcasts, Pop Culture Happy Hour. And every year they do like a best of moment from the year in culture, and then they also do a resolution for the upcoming year. And on their show, the following year they play the resolution and talk about how they did. So we can always revisit that later.

[41:36] Meghan Dixon Thesis: But first I wanted to know, Harrow, what was a favorite theatrical moment for you in 2022?

[41:45] Harrow: I think it has to be, I have two.

[41:50] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Okay.

[41:50] Harrow: One is, let's kind of do two.

[41:52] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Okay.

[41:52] Harrow: Yes. First one is more standard. It was Brian D'Arcy James as the baker in Into the Woods, just emotionally destroyed me, especially his "No More." I think that's like one of the performances I'm gonna take to the grave.

[42:09] Harrow: And then my second, I think has to be "I Want to F*ck Like Romeo and Juliet" and just how delightful that was. It was just so nice to see such an amazing play and just have all the pieces of it really work for me. I had so much fun at that show.

[42:29] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Nice.

[42:30] Harrow: Oh, that's great. And hopefully, like that will be another moment that we get to live when "I Want to F*ck Like Romeo and Juliet" has a further life somewhere.

[42:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I hope. What about yours?

[42:42] Harrow: So mine was finally, after all of the build-up, seeing Strange Loop for the first time. I feel like the expectations were high after talking to you about it, and then also talking to Elle Morgan and talking to Mike, you know, talking to the playwright. So it's like, oh man, I have a lot going, like excitement, and yeah, it met every expectation and exceeded it.

[43:10] Harrow: And I would also say, because I'm gonna cheat and have to as well, my second moment would be when we went to the Breaking the Binary Theater Festival closing party, and we got to meet so many of the artists that we had talked to on the podcast, and new queer artists, and just see the community in action. And yeah, it just gave me so much hope and excitement for the future as we're looking ahead to theater next year.

[43:38] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Now I want to replace, now that's okay, top three.

[43:41] Harrow: Yes, I agree.

[43:44] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Three is fine. Can I also just share that I started antidepressants at the beginning of 2022 and then amped it up in May, and I saw some shows twice this year, some that I saw at the beginning of the year, and some I saw like after the summer. And I'm like, oh, the antidepressants are working because I have such different emotional responses, like just any emotional response shows I saw later in the year. And I just want to like apologize to the shows I saw earlier in the year where I maybe didn't have as much emotional space to really invest in them.

[44:25] Harrow: Those shows will forgive you.

[44:26] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I know they will. And also it's not something you need to apologize for.

[44:29] Harrow: Yeah, I wish I could go back and like relive them, but you know, it's the world. Maybe we need to write the company managers and explain the situation so you can get a—you're like, I'll provide data and research to your marketing team of how people on and off antidepressants react to the show.

[44:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Amazing.

[44:51] Harrow: Yeah, oh that's great. Three wonderful moments. So for theater resolution, I feel like we already do a great job with theater, like being theater patrons, right? We're good, we're good patrons, we talk about theater.

[45:08] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Um, so I'll share mine first. It's after having visited the Drama Bookshop finally for the first time after the remodel. I want to read more plays in 2023 because I'm always like, oh, I missed that show. And I'm like, you know what I could do? I could just read the script, and I'm not—it's not gonna be the same, but I can still be part of the conversation.

[45:32] Harrow: Um, so yes, my goal is to read some more plays, which will also help with my Goodreads goal.

[45:37] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So that's a great idea.

[45:40] Harrow: So I think mine is, oh, I did this a few years ago with books where I spent a whole year where I only read books written by either people of color and/or queer trans people. And now I just kind of do that all the time.

[45:57] Harrow: So I kind of want to try and do that. I think I can't say like all the theater I'm gonna see in 2023 will be written by a person of color or a queer trans person because that's very limiting, sadly. But I think the theater I'm gonna pay for is gonna be that. We'll see, I'm sure there will be exceptions, but that is gonna be my goal.

[46:22] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, we'll take free tickets from anybody.

[46:24] Harrow: Yeah, that's a great goal. And yes, sadly, I think without the pay exception it would be limiting, so yeah. But hopefully not. It's hard because I know there's gonna—I already have tickets for "Light in the Piazza," and that doesn't meet that goal.

[46:24] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So, but you already bought it.

[46:24] Harrow: This is for next—true, I bought it in 2022.

[46:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, we're not starting till January 1st, so yeah.

[46:49] Harrow: Oh, and I want to see "Parade" if it comes back.

[46:57] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, so see, this is difficult. But I want to—someone could buy it for you.

[47:02] Harrow: No, this feels—there are workarounds.

[47:05] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, I'm committing my money to where I want it to go.

[47:05] Harrow: Yes, exactly. No, that's a great goal.

[47:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So I have optimism that we will both meet these goals.

[47:18] Harrow: I do too.

[47:18] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And I hate like resolutions normally, but when it's involved with culture, I love it.

[47:24] Harrow: Yeah.

[47:24] Meghan Dixon Thesis: What's your—what was your book your Goodreads goal for this year?

[47:28] Harrow: It was 50, and I think I'm at 42. But I have three plays to read, and I'm in the middle of like three books, so I should be good.

[47:39] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Oh amazing.

[47:40] Harrow: You've been reading so much this year.

[47:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: I think mine's 40, and I'm like on track. I'm at like 37 or something.

[47:47] Harrow: Oh, you're good.

[47:48] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[47:49] Harrow: Yeah.

[47:49] Meghan Dixon Thesis: You won't even have to cram a bunch of graphic novels at the end. You're good.

[47:51] Harrow: Yeah, I try and space the graphic novels out through the year, so I stay on track.

[47:57] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah.

[47:57] Harrow: No, that's smart. I also saw that Daniel K. Isaac said that he needs more short recommendations for books because he's short of his Goodreads goal for the year.

[48:07] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So maybe we can discuss that with him soon.

[48:11] Harrow: Yes, hopefully.

[48:13] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Well, have a happy holiday, Harrow. I hope it's full of good reading and I don't know what else I was gonna say.

[48:16] Harrow: I was gonna say theater, but definitely, yeah.

[48:26] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Dog time, relaxing, macaroni and cheese, because you make the best mac and cheese.

[48:32] Harrow: Thank you.

[48:33] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And you make the best rest of the meal.

[48:37] Harrow: But the mac and cheese is everyone's favorite, it always goes first, it's the best.

[48:41] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So I did get a one piece to take home this year, which was nice.

[48:45] Harrow: Oh, good.

[48:46] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah. And I'm so glad we got to do another season together, and I'm super excited for what, you know, all our guests and show discussions for next year.

[48:57] Harrow: Yeah, good stuff ahead in season four already.

[49:00] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yeah, and this season started with Paula Vogel.

[49:04] Harrow: Right.

[49:05] Meghan Dixon Thesis: And we, you know, our last guest was Sis.

[49:09] Harrow: Oh my god.

[49:09] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So it started with Paula Vogel and ending on Sis, and just that is, you know, this is my dream.

[49:16] Harrow: I would say two people that we had like dreamed about having on the podcast since the very beginning.

[49:21] Meghan Dixon Thesis: So yeah, grateful to everyone who's been listening, and we hope that, you know, keep following along, let us know what we should see, and hope you have good holidays too.

[49:34] Harrow: See you next year.

[49:35] Meghan Dixon Thesis: See you next year.

[49:36] Harrow: Bye, queers.

[49:40] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Thanks for listening. If you like, please rate and review us and share us with your friends. So excited to hear your queer culture recommendations or any of your ideas on how we could queer the canon.

[49:52] Harrow: You can call us.

[49:53] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Yes, actually call us and leave us a voicemail at 845-445-9251.

[49:59] Harrow: Or send us an email at thesisonjoan@gmail.com.

[50:04] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Until next time, keep it queer.

[50:07] Harrow: Not that it'd be that hard for y'all to do.

[50:14] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Action of the episode for the year wrap up. Let's do action of the episode.

[50:17] Harrow: Trans Santa.

[50:21] Meghan Dixon Thesis: Trans Santa.