This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Harrow: Hey queers, this is season four, episode five of Thesis on Joan with Harrow and Meghan.

[0:05] Meghan: And today we're talking queer shows we've seen and some upcoming queer shows.

[0:25] Harrow: Join us as we sit down with groundbreaking theater folks, both on stage and behind the curtain.

[0:30] Meghan: For many queers, theater has been an escape, and this podcast looks to have open conversations on where we've come from and where we're headed as a community while queering the canon along the way.

[0:41] Harrow: Hey Meghan, we're back.

[0:43] Meghan: We're very close to Pride Month now.

[0:45] Harrow: Maybe you're listening to this in Pride Month, Happy Pride.

[0:49] Meghan: Woo!

[0:49] Harrow: Yeah.

[0:50] Meghan: So I know I know the answer to this question, so it's kind of cheating, but I wondered perchance, do you have any new queer roots that you want to share with our listeners?

[1:03] Harrow: It's like great when a queer root just like hits you.

[1:06] Meghan: Like, you know, there's like things buried so deep inside, you know, and you're like, this is a good thing to happen.

[1:13] Meghan: Um but yes, I got the chance to see the City Center uh production, the Encores production of Oliver, um, which was excellent.

[1:23] Meghan: I you know how sometimes you like see musicals when you're a kid, and then you're like, I liked that, but I was like seven, you know.

[1:32] Meghan: I was like, oh, it actually like it's it's it's a fun show.

[1:35] Meghan: It's weird, but it's a fun show.

[1:37] Meghan: Um, but anyway, as I'm watching it, I remembered that when I saw this production in high school, I think I was like 13 or 14, and I was on this thing called the Teen Advisory Library Board, which I know I explained to you in depth, but for our listeners, you basically like got to go to the library on the weekend, eat pizza, and pick books for the library, which was fantastic.

[2:02] Harrow: It's a dream.

[2:03] Meghan: Is a dream come true.

[2:04] Meghan: Like I wish we could do that now.

[2:06] Meghan: Like maybe NYPL needs like a queer advisory board.

[2:09] Meghan: I don't know.

[2:09] Harrow: I volunteer.

[2:12] Meghan: So the um the woman who headed up the board was like a very cool, like young teen librarian, like had like an undercut, and this is like in 2000, like two or three, right?

[2:23] Meghan: So pre-undercut popularity days.

[2:27] Meghan: Um so she was in a community theater production of Oliver, like very small, and I was like, I like musicals, mom.

[2:35] Meghan: We should go see this.

[2:36] Meghan: And we went, and I did not know she was going to be playing the Artful Dodger in drag.

[2:42] Meghan: Um but it definitely like did some things to me.

[2:46] Meghan: I remember being like very into Oliver after that.

[2:50] Meghan: Like for my piano lessons, I like learned like the song he sings to Nancy, like on the piano.

[2:56] Meghan: And like it's all clicking now.

[2:59] Meghan: Like why I was so obsessed with that character.

[3:01] Meghan: I mean, it's not even like a fully written character, it's like pretty basic.

[3:06] Meghan: But I was like, oh, because it was a drag performance, basically.

[3:11] Harrow: Yeah, and Dodger's like in love with Nancy and Nancy's like this voluptuous like woman who's always around, and I'm like, this is it all makes sense, you know.

[3:21] Meghan: Incredible, incredible queer theater root.

[3:24] Harrow: I love it.

[3:24] Meghan: Yeah, no one would have thought Oliver queer theater root.

[3:28] Harrow: That makes so much sense.

[3:30] Harrow: Uh I just I thought of one kind of so when I was younger, I was in a mall on the Night Visitors, which is an opera.

[3:38] Meghan: I don't I know nothing about that.

[3:40] Harrow: It's it's an opera.

[3:41] Harrow: I played a mall uh the first time.

[3:44] Meghan: Whoa, the titular character.

[3:46] Harrow: Yeah, it was like one it's like one of the only like lead roles I've ever had, but I was really young.

[3:50] Harrow: I was like probably like 10 and in an opera.

[3:55] Harrow: This is probably terrible.

[3:57] Harrow: But um this there was one other like younger person in the show, the rest was all adults, and that person plays the page.

[4:04] Harrow: Um, and it was this this girl, Blythe, who was like a few years older than me, and I'm pretty sure I had a huge crush on her.

[4:11] Harrow: Um, and I remember she like she the page was supposed to be a boy, and she like bound her chest, and I remember it's like five years later, they did it again, the show again, and I got to play the page this time, and I was really excited.

[4:27] Harrow: I was like, I'm gonna bind my chest like twice.

[4:29] Meghan: And they were like, Oh no, you you don't really need to do that.

[4:32] Harrow: They're like, You're doing too much.

[4:35] Harrow: They're like, Your chest, like they were trying to be so delicate about it, basically being like, your chest is much smaller than hers was.

[4:41] Meghan: Oh my god.

[4:43] Harrow: But I was so disappointed, and I'm like, oh now.

[4:47] Harrow: That's why I took this role.

[4:49] Meghan: Yeah.

[4:52] Harrow: Wait, why is this show being done so often?

[4:54] Meghan: I it's like a very Christian Christmas-y show.

[4:58] Harrow: Got it.

[4:59] Harrow: The story is a mall, the Night Visitors are the three kings.

[5:02] Meghan: Oh, on the I know what this is now.

[5:05] Harrow: Yes.

[5:05] Harrow: Yeah.

[5:05] Harrow: On the way to go like visit baby Jesus on his birthday.

[5:09] Harrow: Um they stopped at a mall's house to get like dinner and entertainment.

[5:15] Meghan: I don't know why a mall's house is so funny to me.

[5:20] Harrow: Like a mall's having a house party.

[5:24] Harrow: But then, oh yeah, because the mall like has is dis is physically disabled.

[5:28] Harrow: There's something with his like foot or something.

[5:31] Harrow: So he magically gets cured by the end of the opera where he walks.

[5:36] Harrow: Uh and then he's like, I have to take my crutch to the baby Jesus.

[5:41] Harrow: So he goes with the kings to give the crutch to Jesus.

[5:45] Meghan: Um that's not holding up today, probably can't imagine we'd be recommending that.

[5:53] Harrow: Yeah, probably not.

[5:54] Meghan: But I remember the music pretty well.

[5:56] Meghan: But yeah, queer roots.

[5:58] Harrow: An a very unexpected queer root as a Christian show.

[6:03] Meghan: Amazing.

[6:06] Harrow: Well, thank you to Blythe and the teen advisory board lady who I guess remember her name.

[6:11] Meghan: But I know I still need to track down my Chicago Mama Morton.

[6:17] Harrow: Yeah.

[6:17] Meghan: One day.

[6:19] Harrow: Anyway.

[6:20] Harrow: Start jumping from that.

[6:21] Harrow: That was that was thank you for that question.

[6:24] Meghan: That was fun.

[6:26] Harrow: Should we jump into let's jump into show discussions?

[6:29] Meghan: Let's do it.

[6:31] Harrow: We got to see two shows.

[6:33] Meghan: Uh we're gonna talk about today, Some Like It Hot and White Girl in Danger.

[6:37] Harrow: Yeah, so we got to see Some Like It Hot together.

[6:40] Meghan: Um in the Schubert, which I haven't been in since how we determined this.

[6:47] Harrow: We well, no, the Schubert's where we met.

[6:49] Meghan: We should talk about that.

[6:51] Harrow: Yes.

[6:51] Harrow: I mean, we already discussed our our uh origin story in an earlier episode, but we Meghan and I did meet there at a TDF autism-friendly performance of Matilda.

[7:03] Meghan: Even though I pretended not to know who you were because we were going on a date.

[7:07] Harrow: So, you know.

[7:09] Meghan: Like the next week.

[7:10] Harrow: But here we are.

[7:11] Meghan: Yes.

[7:12] Harrow: What is it?

[7:13] Harrow: Like eight years later.

[7:14] Meghan: At least.

[7:15] Harrow: We're doing well.

[7:16] Meghan: It's great.

[7:17] Harrow: Um.

[7:19] Harrow: But I think it's probably the first time we were in the Schubert together since that.

[7:23] Meghan: Yeah.

[7:24] Harrow: So yeah, this show, I feel like it when did it?

[7:28] Harrow: It opened.

[7:29] Harrow: Late summer, early, early fall.

[7:32] Meghan: And I think we had both been scared off a little bit early, just knowing kind of the content of the show.

[7:39] Harrow: And it had been called out in that article about men in dresses that we talked about in the fall.

[7:45] Meghan: So I don't know about you, but I kind of had like no interest in seeing it for a long time.

[7:50] Harrow: Absolutely.

[7:51] Harrow: Yeah, I felt like Tootsie and Mrs.

[7:53] Doubtfire, and I didn't see either of those shows.

[7:56] Meghan: So yeah, I wasn't like really gunning to see this one either.

[8:00] Meghan: I think it shifted for me when I started hearing other people going to see it and kind of recommending it to me.

[8:07] Meghan: And also that it won or it not it got nominated for a bunch of Tonys.

[8:12] Harrow: And yeah, I was like, oh, I want to be able to talk about this show.

[8:16] Meghan: Yeah, yeah.

[8:17] Harrow: Cause we I think we actually uh requested press tickets before the nominations even came out.

[8:23] Meghan: And so like once that came out, I was like, okay, good, I'm glad we're seeing this.

[8:26] Harrow: But same people whose opinions I trusted started saying, like, I think you maybe they changed it, or maybe I don't know.

[8:34] Harrow: Something shifted in the word of mouth that I was like, okay, I feel like I need to see this now.

[8:39] Meghan: Yeah.

[8:39] Meghan: And I'm I'm glad I got to see it because I I do want to talk about it because I think it feels it's complicated.

[8:45] Harrow: That's to say the least.

[8:47] Meghan: Yeah.

[8:49] Harrow: So I feel like um I don't know.

[8:52] Harrow: What were you interested in or excited about coming into this show?

[8:56] Meghan: I was excited for the dancing.

[8:58] Meghan: I I think I thought it was a revival at first when we saw it, and then after reading more about it, I'm like, oh no, it's a remake of an old movie with Marilyn Monroe.

[9:08] Harrow: I almost said Nansen.

[9:09] Harrow: Um that'd be a very different movie.

[9:11] Meghan: Um, so this new musical has a book by Matthew López and Amber Ruffin, music by Marc Shaiman, and lyrics by Scott Wittman and Marc Shaiman.

[9:22] Meghan: Yeah, so I was excited for the dancing, I think, and to see like what how the queer and trans representation of in the show.

[9:30] Harrow: Yeah, definitely.

[9:32] Harrow: So, in terms of the dancing, it was directed and choreographed by Casey Nicholaw, and we know that he never disappoints with like blowout choreography.

[9:39] Meghan: So it definitely delivered on that front.

[9:41] Meghan: Like tap dancing.

[9:43] Harrow: I haven't seen tap dancing like that in a show in years.

[9:46] Meghan: Yeah, it was exciting to see that.

[9:48] Harrow: It's it's interesting because I just watched I just re-watched Singin' in the Rain, and I was telling our friend Kirsten, I'm like, oh, no one like taps like this anymore.

[9:58] Harrow: And I still feel like the like the that level of style and caliber wasn't there, but yeah, I I love a good tap musical.

[10:04] Meghan: Mm-hmm.

[10:05] Meghan: Yeah, there's a tap number near the end of this.

[10:07] Meghan: That's like it's one of those like this your smile, you're just smiling the whole time because you're like, wow, I can't believe this is still happening.

[10:14] Meghan: It just keep they just keep tapping.

[10:17] Harrow: Um it did feel I I felt the same way.

[10:21] Harrow: I was like, I feel like this is a revival.

[10:23] Harrow: It's like when they did the um the Cinderella a few years ago, where it's like this already existed, and we just like put some new songs in it and like changed the book up, and now it's a new musical.

[10:34] Meghan: So yeah, the Laura Osnes one.

[10:36] Harrow: Yeah, yeah.

[10:37] Harrow: But I think I was most excited to see um Jay Harrison Gee and like wow, what a performance.

[10:45] Meghan: Incredible.

[10:47] Harrow: I could watch them just do anything on stage all day, like hours and hours.

[10:52] Harrow: The presence that they have and just talk about a triple quadruple threat, like the dancing, the singing, the acting, like it was all just there.

[11:02] Meghan: They're just such a star.

[11:03] Harrow: Yeah, you can't like take your eyes off of them regardless of like what moment of the show they're in, how they're dressed.

[11:09] Harrow: Like even at the beginning when they're wearing like the the suit, you know what I mean?

[11:14] Harrow: And it I you can tell they're supposed to be kind of like subdued outfits.

[11:17] Harrow: I'm still like obsessed with watching them.

[11:19] Meghan: Yeah, it's a really beautiful performance.

[11:23] Harrow: And you know, I I love I love Christian Borle, but this was a tough one for me.

[11:28] Meghan: This is hard, yeah.

[11:31] Harrow: Um I've been a fan of his for a long time because I feel like he does such great like comedic bits and um has such good timing and stage presence.

[11:43] Meghan: But I don't know, I don't know where it's coming from.

[11:48] Harrow: You know what I mean?

[11:49] Harrow: I don't know if it's coming from the direction, I don't know if it's coming from it's definitely coming from the costume design to a certain extent.

[11:56] Harrow: But it was a very cringy, troubling, problematic, harmful performance.

[12:04] Meghan: Yeah.

[12:04] Harrow: Did you see that he also he's credited with like additional material?

[12:08] Meghan: Oh lord.

[12:09] Harrow: Yeah, so I'm sure some of like the jokes were his.

[12:14] Meghan: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[12:15] Harrow: So that's troubling.

[12:17] Harrow: You know, it's there's gonna be lots of spoilers in this conversation for both shows, just a heads up.

[12:22] Harrow: But so it starts with the song Vamp, where the two Christian and Jay Harrison's character are like getting into dresses and wigs to hide from these uh like gangsters who they saw murder someone, and it plays right into that trope of like men in dresses are funny and the butt of jokes, and you know, it immediately goes to this place of like hyperfeminization and like how funny that is and like how ridiculous they look.

[12:53] Meghan: Yeah, and I don't know how that sat okay with the creators. And within minutes, they're like, you know, flirting with women in drag and they're in bathrooms in drag. I'm like, oh no, it's hitting all of the things that you know there's panic about. And I know we talked about this when we were at the show, but the thing that's the most troubling is the audience reaction to these moments because it's just going back to that article that I know we keep bringing up all year, but regardless of the intention, the way that it is being received is not it's it's harmful. Like, you know, Christian Borrell just like makes a feminine pose and everyone's bursting out laughing just because it's a man in a dress, you know. There isn't even like a line delivered, and it's I was kind of you know, even on a Wednesday night, the audience was overwhelmingly like poking fun at this.

[13:51] Harrow: Yeah, and I definitely want to bring up yeah, the bathroom part where the two uh Christian and Jay Harrison's character are in a bathroom with a cis woman, and Christian's character kind of starts like hitting on her, and it just like brings up this trope of like predatory men in dresses, like going into women's bathrooms to like you know, take advantage of women, and like and like there's so much legislation and hate against trans folks and and with bathrooms, and it's just uh why why don't you do this?

[14:25] Meghan: Yes, yeah, and it's it's with that weird thing where I feel like if we had seen this show, this revival like 15 20 years ago, both characters would be the Christian Borrell character.

[14:36] Harrow: Yes.

[14:36] Meghan: And I think because they have an amazing well performed character like Daphne, played by Jay Harrising, like they they feel like it cancels it out. You know, there's like that weird thing, it's like, oh, we're giving you this performance. It is like kind of a beautiful journey of someone figuring out who they are. But just because that exists doesn't make the other aspects of the show any less problematic.

[15:03] Harrow: Yeah, exactly.

[15:05] Meghan: And it was hard because like I love Jay Harrison's performance. I thought the story of Daphne was pretty well done, and like you know, that's not my experience, so I'm sure others have other thoughts, but from the trans representation we do have on Broadway, it felt like a more respectful portrayal of a trans woman's story or a trans person's story. I feel like the other thing that was hard too was like it the problematic things were kind of front loaded. So I feel like the beginning of the show was the most like upsetting, and then the second act, like there was some I I don't want to say redemption because you can't redeem like the things that were done, but the second act, if I'd only seen the second act, I would have probably not had as many issues with Christian Borel's character.

[15:52] Harrow: Absolutely.

[15:52] Meghan: He was also not in a dress for much more of act two.

[15:56] Harrow: That's true.

[15:57] Meghan: That's a good point. I did, I thought the lines about his age were funny.

[16:02] Harrow: Um I did too.

[16:05] Meghan: I was like, oh no, is this like bad ageism? But I was like, nah, I like that.

[16:09] Harrow: Yeah.

[16:10] Meghan: Well, it's also funny because like Angie Schwarzer was also in the like ensemble of women. And I she must be older than him, right?

[16:17] Harrow: But she looks amazing.

[16:19] Meghan: Yeah, Angie is ageless.

[16:20] Harrow: Yes.

[16:21] Meghan: Yeah, that was a highlight getting to see her in something too.

[16:24] Harrow: Oh yes.

[16:25] Meghan: And she got to do her uh lots of Zazz in that performance.

[16:29] Harrow: Oh, absolutely. And like she has some killer lines that like bring the house down. I just loved her playing the drum set with like a cigarette. She always has a cigarette like hanging out of her mouth.

[16:40] Harrow: It's great.

[16:40] Meghan: Yeah, she's a great uh ensemble performance, but I think the other standout performance that I was just obsessed with was Natasha Yvette Williams, who plays Sue, um, the leader of the band. Like wow, amazing.

[16:57] Harrow: Yeah, she had some great comedic lines and timing as well.

[17:01] Meghan: And like kind of kept the Christian Boyle character in in his place.

[17:08] Harrow: Yeah, which was good. She did she read queer to you?

[17:13] Meghan: Absolutely. With those like sparkly pantsuit outfits.

[17:16] Harrow: Yeah.

[17:17] Meghan: I know. I was kind of hoping that that might be a reveal that happened. But yeah, her costuming was awesome.

[17:24] Harrow: Yeah. All the I love the costumes. What gorgeous pieces. Except for Christian Barles.

[17:29] Meghan: Amazing.

[17:29] Harrow: Yeah. But they made him look like frumpy and terrible on purpose.

[17:34] Meghan: Yeah.

[17:35] Harrow: But it's still like it was like lazy drag. But I know that was on purpose.

[17:39] Meghan: Yeah. It's just yeah. But the costuming for uh Jay Harrison.

[17:43] Harrow: Yeah.

[17:44] Meghan: Wow. They looked incredible.

[17:46] Harrow: Yeah. I think they would look amazing in anything.

[17:49] Meghan: That's true. But yeah, those are beautiful costumes. Did you see they went to the Met Gala?

[17:55] Harrow: I did.

[17:56] Meghan: They looked amazing.

[17:57] Harrow: So cool.

[17:58] Meghan: Yeah. So pretty.

[17:59] Harrow: Yeah. I would love to talk to Jay Harrison too and like hear their perspective on being in this show and like what they feel about the other representation. And like they've also been in um they were in Kinky Boots and they were in Mrs. Doubtfire. So I'm like, where is the perspective there?

[18:17] Meghan: I would I would love to hear it.

[18:18] Harrow: Yeah. Especially when all of well, kinky boots, they probably went into it late, but with Doubtfire and this, like creating a new show with these identities. Like what is what was the process there? And like looking at the creative team, like I don't really see any trans folks, right?

[18:37] Meghan: I don't know.

[18:37] Harrow: Not not in the major creatives anyway. I just went back and reread that article that Scott Wittman and Marc Shaiman did with Playbill about like, oh, they've read your concerns about like the trans representation. And basically they're like, oh, we grew up with all these trans performers, and like this is like an homage to them. But I don't think you nailed it, guys. Like it's still pretty harmful. And it's great they brought in Matthew Lopez and Amber Ruffin to do the book. Um two people of color, which uh I think especially is important because they they changed the character of Sugarcane from you know Marilyn Monroe to a black woman. Um so they it was great they have another black woman on the on the writing team, but they could have done that with the trans representation too.

[19:23] Meghan: Yeah, definitely. I feel like Shaman and Whitman don't care.

[19:25] Harrow: Yeah, absolutely not. They're gonna do whatever they want and they're gonna write I have to admit some pretty catchy songs in the process.

[19:34] Meghan: So yeah the the music was fun. Did you have a favorite moment in the show?

[19:39] Harrow: I mean I l I like the tap but I feel like my favorite moment is um the song where Daphne really like comes into her own that you could have knocked me over with a feather. Like you just got to see the joy in that moment and uh Jay Harrison got to show off their range and it was it was awesome. How about you?

[20:05] Meghan: Uh yeah that song definitely was a highlight and then also the the epic epic chase scene at the end just had me like there was so problematic parts to it unfortunately but like it just had me smiling like from ear to ear the whole time and just like amazed by the choreography and then it was still going. Nonstop.

[20:25] Harrow: Yeah so cool. I I mean this is it's got all the ingredients to do well I'm sure it will do killer on tour.

[20:34] Meghan: Oof that that the tour freaks me out way more like I'm like this is gonna be all over the country and it's not a New York audience and yeah the audience is gonna be even more like fed these tropes and these dangerous ideas about men in dresses and like ugh it makes me very upset that yeah those audiences are gonna experience this I will I mean overall, like with the exception of that performance aside, I enjoyed a lot of the time during like I enjoyed a lot of my experience at the show.

[21:14] Harrow: So yeah, I did too.

[21:16] Meghan: I like when Christian Boro wasn't on stage, it was lovely.

[21:19] Harrow: Or no, not in a dress, I guess.

[21:21] Meghan: Um A line I never thought I agree to because I really do love Christian Borrell. Like he's one of my favorite performers, so it's and I can see why he was chosen for this. Um because of the comedy of it, but maybe that character just doesn't need to exist in that way at all. Like even the things that character does in regards to treatment of women is problematic, like beyond the drag stuff, it's still messy.

[21:46] Harrow: Yeah, and then she still ends up with him after he's like deceived her so many times.

[21:52] Meghan: So end up with Sue.

[21:56] Harrow: Sugar and Sue ship.

[21:58] Meghan: Sugar and Sue.

[22:00] Harrow: That would have really redeemed it for me.

[22:02] Meghan: Yeah, absolutely. I also love that this movie is just the plot of Sister Act, um, but in a very different setting.

[22:09] Harrow: Yeah, when you said that, I was like, you're absolutely right. This is a white man's sister acting.

[22:16] Meghan: Yeah, I do really love Sister Act, so but we'll see. I think it's gonna clean up a lot at the Tony's because of the production value of it alone.

[22:26] Harrow: So oh, uh another aspect that made me cringe was like the millionaire character. Osgood and like his obsession with Daphne made me very nervous.

[22:40] Meghan: I was so scared.

[22:40] Harrow: Yeah, like that it like ended happily, but like it's so easily like could have ended, you know. Daphne has no power in that situation at all, and like who knows how he could have reacted to her, or like even if like he was okay with her being a trans woman, like he still has all the power, and like you know, as a young black woman, like he could have done anything with her.

[23:07] Meghan: It was very scary.

[23:08] Harrow: I was worried when they went to Mexico.

[23:11] Meghan: I was like, what's gonna happen here?

[23:12] Harrow: Yeah, are we ever gonna see Daphne again?

[23:16] Meghan: Yeah, it ended up okay, but the introduction was a little I don't know. And then they left you for intermission, and I'm like, this is not gonna go well, but yeah.

[23:16] Harrow: I don't know.

[23:27] Meghan: Daphne's happy in the end.

[23:28] Harrow: So yeah, I just want Daphne to be happy.

[23:32] Meghan: But it's running, it's there at the shoe bird. Go check it out.

[23:36] Harrow: Yeah, it's there.

[23:41] Meghan: And I think it will be there for a while.

[23:43] Harrow: So yeah.

[23:45] Meghan: Okay, switching over to the other show we got to see.

[23:49] Harrow: What a shift.

[23:50] Meghan: Honestly. Something very different. Um, so we got the chance to see White Girl in Danger, which we first heard about over a year ago when Michael R. Jackson was on our podcast and telling us that this was the next thing he had in development. Even though he told us a little bit on the show about it, I still feel like I went into this completely unaware of what I was about to witness.

[24:14] Harrow: How about you?

[24:15] Meghan: Yeah, I had heard about like the length and that it was very different from Strange Loop, and I knew that it was like about soaps, and I I think I said this in the last episode. I asked my friend who saw I'm like, Oh, is it queer? Should we talk about it? And they're like, Would Michael R. Jackson do something that wasn't queer? Absolutely.

[24:33] Harrow: Yeah, it's very queer.

[24:36] Meghan: Yeah. Queer in like the way that like just by being like camp is queer. You know what I mean? Not like it's pushing a queer plot line or anything like that.

[24:46] Harrow: I mean, it did a little.

[24:48] Meghan: That's true. We'll talk about those moments.

[24:51] Harrow: Yeah. Wait, first, okay, Megan.

[24:54] Meghan: Yeah.

[24:55] Harrow: How did you feel as a Megan who was also spelling wasn't represented in the show?

[25:03] Meghan: All Megans matter.

[25:06] Harrow: Oh my God. So what was that experience like?

[25:11] Meghan: I mean, accurate, right? Like, I was like, this is incredible. Like, I think from the very beginning, they start the productions, and I'm like, oh look, there's a Megan. I'm like, wait, there's another one. There's another, so we have three Megans. So the first act of this show is kind of like Saved by the Bell vibes, teen after school drama. And it follows a character who is from quote unquote the black ground. So they're trying to break into the all-white storyline. Um, the all-white storyline. And that involves hanging out with these three characters named Megan, or it's Megan, Megan, and Megan. And I was like, this is so funny. Because I really, yeah. But yeah, there's always been so many other Megans around my whole life.

So I was like, this is accurate. Um, but yeah, I felt honored to be like derided by Michael R. Jackson. And the world is like set up. It's not like the Keisha, who's the main protagonist, is like an actor trying to get into like a soap opera. It's like they are in this like TV world where it's very like meta. Yeah. It's almost like someone has a dollhouse and they're playing with the characters and the dolls can like speak to you. Like that was kind of how I started to or like someone's Barbies, you know, or like in acting, but yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Cause it's also like they, especially the black ground characters, they're kind of like off camera a bit where they like can talk where they're not like the focus and like can comment on like what's happening in all white.

[26:51] Harrow: Mm-hmm.

[26:52] Meghan: Um, but it's not like they're in a TV show at that time. Yeah, it's like weirdly everyone's omniscient.

[26:57] Harrow: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[26:59] Meghan: I can't even imagine the writing process for this. Like it's so involved and intricate and there's so many things happening. I think it took me like a good half hour to even like kind of feel comfortable figuring out what I was experiencing.

[27:15] Harrow: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, definitely.

[27:17] Meghan: I also oh I have to shout out that I saw a very understudy heavy performance.

[27:23] Harrow: Oh I saw some too. Who did you see?

[27:25] Meghan: Yeah. Uh I saw Keisha was played by Alexis Cofield. Tarek was out and Caroline, I think was the other one.

[27:34] Harrow: I saw an understudy for Caroline too.

[27:37] Meghan: Okay. But the big deal was uh Abilene was played by Ladonna Burns, who typically understudies Nell, the mom, and she doesn't cover that track at all.

[27:49] Harrow: Oh god.

[27:50] Meghan: So she just went on like kind of blind.

[27:54] Harrow: Yeah, and she killed it. In that show, like I can't imagine going.

[27:59] Meghan: Oh my god. She yeah, and like I didn't realize she comes on, she you know, she's one of the three kind of like the trio of black ground characters, yeah.

[28:09] Harrow: Yeah, and uh she had note cards for any time there were like oh my god scenes with lines. Uh so I'm like, oh she must be like really new or like, you know, this is her first time going on. Like I've never seen that before, I don't think.

[28:22] Meghan: And then I looked on social media after I got home and I'm like, wow, she does not cover that role at all.

[28:26] Harrow: That's super impressive.

[28:28] Meghan: Wow.

[28:28] Harrow: Yeah.

[28:29] Meghan: Oh my gosh. It was pretty awesome. So yeah, LaDonna Burns, you're amazing.

[28:33] Harrow: Oh, oh wow.

[28:34] Meghan: Yeah, I saw the understudy for Caroline and then um Megan White, the one who's like the all black hates her mom, was understudy. So she was my favorite Megan. She was great in this one too.

[28:47] Harrow: So uh shout out to uh Natalie Walker who was in for Megan White. She was great.

[28:52] Meghan: Nice, nice.

[28:54] Harrow: Yeah.

[28:55] Meghan: That show is exhausting. I can't imagine doing that eight times a week.

[28:59] Harrow: I mean, it's exhausting to watch. Like I texted our friend Carolyn after. I was like, every time I see a Michael R. Jackson show, I feel like I just crammed for a test and I'm not prepared. Like I just like there's so much to absorb that I, you know, and without a song list and without like the cast album available anywhere, I was like, I miss so much.

[29:21] Harrow: Absolutely.

[29:22] Meghan: It's so fast, it's so high energy. There's a lot like the lyrics are so dense too that I I know I miss things in the lyrics.

[29:31] Harrow: Yeah, it's incredibly like academic. You know, like it's definitely like he's presenting a thesis to you.

[29:37] Meghan: I will say at the beginning, so the two acts are very different. The first act with like the teen drama. I was personally having a little bit of a tricky time, even though I know it's camp and it's played up for effect with the Megan who's experiencing eating disorder. It was like difficult for me to watch that.

[29:56] Harrow: Uh yes, it was also very difficult for me.

[29:59] Meghan: And again, like hearing the audience reaction to it was hard. It's like anytime she was like displaying symptoms, like everyone would like start laughing.

[30:08] Harrow: And you know, we always know which I love about him, but Michael R. Jackson is always kind of manipulating the audience reaction, which we'll talk about more later. So I'm sure that part of that was to see how people will react to these things.

[30:22] Meghan: Um but it also made me think like, why am I more uncomfortable with this than the other Megan storylines? You know, the one with the relationship abuse was also difficult, but the one who was like, you know, substance abuse and hating her family, I like mostly laughed at that, you know.

[30:38] Harrow: So I'm like, what is it like about me personally that I find some of these things acceptable to make fun of and others not so much?

[30:46] Meghan: So I think it's also like society knows how bad the other two are. Like it's like people know it's not a joke if you're in an abusive domestic, you know, violence situation, or if like you're abusing medication.

[31:01] Harrow: But yeah, eating disorders are still seen as kind of like the butt of the joke and not serious disorders that can that kill people and like definitely impact the LGBT community stronger than others.

[31:14] Meghan: So yeah, I think that's what it is also for me. So I don't yeah, I don't really know what to like think about that part, but I felt like I wanted to voice that.

[31:22] Harrow: Yeah.

[31:23] Meghan: But like the plot also in the first act is that people keep getting killed.

[31:28] Harrow: Yeah, and the main character, Keisha, wants so badly to like assimilate and be accepted into the all-white community in the story that she's like, oh, how I do that is to be murdered by the all-right killer.

[31:41] Meghan: And then she starts exhibiting all of these like terrible traits of the Megans to like kind of manipulate the situation in very amazing manipulation.

[31:52] Harrow: Like she should gets what she wants by the second act.

[31:55] Meghan: So yeah. I do think that I wish the first act had been cut a little down. Also because I I don't understand the soap references and a lot of the TV and like name references that Michael made. That's just not my generation or like what the entertainment I grew up with.

[32:12] Harrow: So I think so much of that was lost on me.

[32:15] Meghan: And you know they're there because there was some really good musical theater Easter eggs. Not that I can name them off the top of my head, but like a few of them are like, oh, that's a deep cut. So you know, if there's deep cuts of that, like Carolyn was telling me that there was like Taylor Swift jokes and stuff, and I was like, I did not get those.

[32:31] Harrow: Not at all.

[32:33] Meghan: Yeah, I'm sure every line has like 50 layers of references to it.

[32:37] Harrow: That's incredible.

[32:38] Meghan: Yeah. I'd love to see um, yeah, like an annotated version of the whole book.

[32:43] Harrow: Good idea.

[32:44] Meghan: Yeah. Michael, you're free, right? Put that together.

[32:49] Harrow: Oh my gosh.

[32:50] Meghan: Uh it reminded me of the like the gospel play part of uh Strange Loop. It just kind of felt like that for like the whole show.

[32:58] Harrow: Like, but it was kind of that tone and energy, and focusing more on especially the first act, like a white uh community.

[33:06] Meghan: Yeah, it definitely like you could tell it was the same creator, but it was like a more frantic it Strange Loop is pretty frantic at points, and this was like revved up a thousand notches.

[33:20] Harrow: Yeah.

[33:20] Meghan: Also another play, you know, I we're spoiling things. Um, and sadly this will be closed um in the next couple weeks. But another play that pretty much takes place in someone's head, right?

[33:30] Harrow: I don't know.

[33:31] Meghan: Oh, that's interesting.

[33:33] Harrow: I thought it was more of like a meta world.

[33:36] Meghan: Oh, because of the all-white creator.

[33:38] Harrow: Yeah, the all-white creator.

[33:39] Meghan: Oh, yeah, I didn't even think about that.

[33:42] Harrow: And I feel like we we gotta talk about that part of the play where it all just kind of like breaks down.

[33:47] Meghan: That was my favorite part of the show.

[33:49] Harrow: Yeah.

[33:50] Meghan: So this character, Clarence, who's kind of he's uh one of the black ground uh characters, he's kind of like been the like magical Negro trope throughout the whole show of like coming through with his broom as like a custodian and like offering sage words of wisdom to the main character.

[34:10] Harrow: Clarence is played by James Jackson Jr. Who is also in Strange Loop, so yeah, and is excellent, and then he kind of becomes the mouthpiece for Michael R. Jackson.

[34:20] Meghan: Yeah.

[34:21] Harrow: That part was amazing. Like I need to read that speech like 50 times and absorb it and just yes break it down.

[34:27] Meghan: But the whole like trying to center other people but ending up centering yourself and the end of it and what that means, and I feel like I can't talk intelligently about this because Michael is just such a genius and it's you know, not a not a play for me. I'm just happy to be able to experience it.

[34:48] Harrow: Yeah.

[34:49] Meghan: It felt like that was like the core of the message of the like the thesis of the show, and I I just wish we had gotten there like a little quicker.

[34:57] Harrow: Yeah, I do wish it was like kind of woven more throughout. Maybe it's because it wanted to have that big fourth wall break, like shock value moment, which it did accomplish that.

[35:07] Meghan: Absolutely.

[35:07] Harrow: And again, my favorite thing about Michael is audience manipulation and uh the character of Nell, the mother has that incredible song where she just like belts her ass off.

[35:20] Meghan: I don't I don't know about your performance but everyone was standing.

[35:23] Harrow: No not everyone was standing but like several people were.

[35:25] Meghan: People standing people are yelling she's amazing.

[35:29] Harrow: Yeah Nell is played by Tara Connor Jones and she was incredible.

[35:34] Meghan: Incredible so you have this moment where you're like oh wow what a great cathartic moment we all reacted to this you know it was wonderful and then you get to the all-white creators monologue and talks about how like w having black women stand on stage and sing is like a form of servitude in the modern world and you're all just like oh I did it again he got me again I applauded I shouted I loved it and here we are.

[35:34] Harrow: Yeah and the call out of Caroline or Chain.

[36:07] Meghan: Yeah wow did people gasp at your gasped yeah and applauded yeah that was yeah no holds bar I love it.

[36:16] Harrow: Um yeah, I mean we know Michael is not shy away from calling things out by name.

[36:16] Meghan: Yeah there's probably a lot more in that that I missed.

[36:16] Harrow: Yeah well I also I was looking at the playbook and I was reading um Ladonna Burns who I said you know is played the role that she doesn't normally cover so she normally covers Nell the mom so and uh in her history she's played Caroline.

[36:16] Meghan: Oh wow in her change?

[36:16] Harrow: Yeah so I also would have loved to see her do that too.

[36:47] Meghan: It definitely is just like Strange Loop, a show that lends itself really well to I'd love to go back and see other people do the roles because you could bring so much of a different interpretation, I feel like, depending on who's in the role.

[36:58] Harrow: Absolutely.

[36:59] Meghan: Yeah, and the character of Nell is like described as like a mammy character, and she's like really in the background, uh like the black ground of the show for the most of the first three quarters, I would say, and then she uh you know starts as the like a lunch lady and then she becomes a nurse and she like slowly like kind of builds more into more powerful roles until she kind of she takes over the show and eventually becomes kind of the show's writer.

[37:27] Harrow: Yeah.

[37:28] Meghan: Um, which I think you know is what I don't know, that's what Michael is like hoping to see more of it sounds like.

[37:34] Harrow: Yeah, like the whole thing is like centering black women on stage and writing.

[37:49] Meghan: I loved that about this show. You know what? You could tell like the Megans come out as unicorns on a chariot. Like, you know what I mean? It's like you can tell that he was like, I don't care, I'm putting it in, and you can figure it out.

[38:04] Harrow: Oh, we should talk about the queer Megan.

[38:07] Meghan: Oh yes.

[38:08] Harrow: Yes.

[38:09] Meghan: That came out of nowhere for me. That was great. I loved the whole part of they just don't put lesbians in things anymore, which I kind of agree with.

[38:17] Harrow: Yeah.

[38:19] Meghan: I like that Michael is championing more lesbian representation too.

[38:24] Harrow: Yes, absolutely.

[38:25] Meghan: And like I would kind of wish it had gone like somewhere a little more, but like, you know, having a queer black woman protagonist is pretty badass. I wish we got there earlier too for that. But yeah, it's okay. It was in there eventually. It felt like a lot of like little vignettes at the end. So that was like one of our vignettes.

[38:45] Harrow: Yeah, I'll take it. I'll take any queer presentation we can have.

[38:50] Meghan: Great. Um yeah, it was nice. The line that really like stuck with me is Keisha was talking about, oh, at some point, like my race can't supersede my class privilege, something like that. But I'm like, oh, that's so interesting. Cause I feel like yeah, that is an intersection that we haven't been able to like dive too much into yet. Um, because we're still just like trying to talk about intersectionality at the most basic level.

[39:18] Harrow: That line got a lot of love when I was there too.

[39:20] Meghan: Yeah.

[39:21] Harrow: Yeah, it was it was nice to be an audience that was like hanging on every word with the show too. But yeah, I'm sure it'll exist in another form. I hope.

[39:31] Meghan: Um definitely feel like colleges across the country will be doing this show.

[39:35] Harrow: Oh my gosh, I hope so. Read it, you know, see whatever production you can. It's very interesting.

[39:41] Meghan: Oh, this is something random. It's fine.

[39:43] Harrow: Never mind.

[39:43] Meghan: No, go ahead. What are you gonna say?

[39:45] Meghan: I wish that some of the other characters had been incorporated a little more. Like I wanted to know more about Tarek, and I wasn't sure what his role in the show was. But I would have liked a lot more of Tarek and a lot less of the Matthew Scott, Scott Matthew other.

[39:59] Harrow: Yeah, I was like, I get the point.

[40:01] Meghan: Yeah, white guys, yeah. They're all kind of the same and they're all different in scary ways.

[40:07] Harrow: Yeah.

[40:08] Meghan: Yeah, he was more just like a fresh prince like stereotype, basically. Like for the first act anyway.

[40:15] Harrow: Yeah, and I think I would have liked enjoyed seeing those stereotypes broken down a little more in that in the second act. Again, I really want to see it and read it because I'm sure I missed a ton. So thanks, Michael, for continuing to write.

[40:28] Meghan: Yeah. Keep doing it. Did you see they just announced Teeth is going to be at Playwrights Horizons?

[40:33] Harrow: Oh no.

[40:34] Meghan: Oh, okay. Okay, great.

[40:36] Harrow: Yeah.

[40:36] Meghan: So we have the next Michael R. Jackson piece coming up. So I don't have to be too sad, like I was with Ryan. Like, oh man, I won't get to see anything new for a long time.

[40:45] Harrow: Yeah, I'm excited for that.

[40:47] Meghan: So we're excited to talk about some upcoming shows. And since we're heading into Pride Month, there are a ton of queer festivals and shows that are available in June, and we're gonna shout some of those out now.

[40:57] Harrow: Uh including the Frigid Festival. Bridget's coming back to New York for the 2023 Queerly Festival. It's happening June 15th through July 3rd at Under St. Mark's in the Kraine Theater. Queerly is Frigid New York's annual celebration of LGBTQA Plus artists. They strive for diversity on and off stage, seeking out queer teens and artists of all kinds, as well as a wide range of shows and performances. Their goal is to provide a space for queer artists who've rarely or never seen their identities portrayed on stage and to be able to represent themselves and tell their stories their way, as well as to provide a space for queer celebration, pride, and strength. Most performances will also be available to live stream from home.

[41:38] Harrow: We've also got New Ambassadors Theatre Company's Blurring Boundaries 2023, that plunges into unexplored depths with seven boundary-pushing short plays amplifying LGBTQ plus BIPOC and marginalized voices. Blurring Boundaries begins on Wednesday, June 14th for a limited engagement through Sunday, June 18th, and features seven short plays at the Hudson Guild Theater. Tickets are $35 and can be purchased online via newambassadorstheater.com.

[42:07] Harrow: And then we've also got The Tank annual Pride Fest. Every year in June, The Tank opens the floor to a wide variety of performances and discussions surrounding the topics of sexuality, gender, inequality, old battles, and new ways of fighting them. Now in its ninth year, Pride Fest will take place at The Tank, running June 16th through 25th, and will highlight work that celebrates the queer community and its healing, addresses challenges that are faced as we strive for rights, representation, and justice, and presents new ideas and perceptions on how we define ourselves individually, within our community, and in the global community at large. Tickets begin at $15 and are available by visiting their website, which we'll link in the show notes.

[42:45] Harrow: So we'd also like to shout out Foxes by Dexter Flanders. This is directed by James Hillier and begins performances in 59E59's Theater A on June 1st and opens June 7th for a run through July 2nd. Foxes follows Daniel, a young black man trying to keep up with his life in London's Caribbean community while balancing his own goals with his family's expectations. When his relationship with his best friend Leon brings an unexpected change, it creates turmoil, bringing a taboo into his family home that has the power to tear the closest and most loving relationships apart. Foxes tackles the black gay experience with tenderness and beautiful depth.

[43:23] Meghan: All right, and as we head into our action of the Ep, we are shouting out Black and Pink. Black and Pink is a nationwide pen pal program in which they match incarcerated LGBTQIA2S+ people and people living with HIV/AIDS with pen pals who correspond, build relationships, and participate in harm reduction and affirmation. For an incarcerated LGBTQIA2S+ person, corresponding with someone on a regular basis is itself a harm reduction strategy, giving that person a support network outside of prison. You can sign up through their website, blackandpinkpenpals.org, and you can sign up to find yourself two pen pals at a time. They limit it to two, so to make sure that you really dedicate yourself to being an ongoing person in communication with them, and you can write them letters.

I actually just did this recently, and I'm really excited. I hope that I get to hear back from the folks I wrote to and start a dialogue with them. This is like a really easy way to practice harm reduction and hopefully support folks in our community. It's a great way to uplift our community during Pride Month this year, and I hope you'll join me. They offer really great tips and advice on how to reach out to folks and what to consider when writing them, and you can find that all on their website.

[44:38] Harrow: All right, jumping into queer culture wrecks. I am very excited to talk about mine. Do you remember Lempicka, the musical? It was at Williamstown, and then it was in San Diego a couple like a year or two ago. And then the pandemic happened because I feel like it was coming in hot, but starring Eden Espinoza and Amber Iman is in it as well. And they have three songs on Spotify that are available to stream, and dear God, they are gorgeous. Especially the song Woman Is that Eden sings. Holy crap. It's like it's like light in the piazza level beautiful.

[45:18] Meghan: Oh from you. Yes. I need you to listen to this right after this. And then it's Eden singing, who is always just so beautiful. Like, oh, her phrasing, her voice. I just I love it so much. And it's queer. It's a beautiful love story about this painter who's in love with this woman.

[45:39] Harrow: Ugh.

[45:40] Meghan: I didn't know it was queer.

[45:42] Harrow: It's so queer. Two of the songs are from like the women in the main couple.

[45:47] Meghan: Wow.

[45:47] Harrow: Yeah. The third song's fine, but like the two songs Stay and Woman Is are the two queer songs that are available, and they're beautiful. Go listen to them.

[45:57] Meghan: Okay, someone who listens to this has to know what's happening with Lempicka. So if you know, please please inform us what's next.

[46:06] Harrow: I feel so seen because in college we had to like pick an image to do like a piece about, and I chose the image that she is singing about.

[46:17] Meghan: I'm kidding.

[46:18] Harrow: Yeah.

[46:19] Meghan: Okay, you have to link to this image.

[46:21] Harrow: What is it?

[46:21] Meghan: I will. It's like it's a portrait of a like a woman. I don't know anything about visual art, but like the style is very kind of like Picasso-esque kind of. I don't know.

[46:32] Harrow: Wow.

[46:32] Meghan: Probably very wrong.

[46:34] Harrow: No, no, no. But it's like a beautiful woman in this like gorgeous green dress, and she's like curvy and it's made up of all kind of like hard lines and shapes, but it's a beautiful painting, and I don't apparently I was like into it.

[46:47] Meghan: I saw something. There's a queer route for you.

[46:49] Harrow: Yeah, yeah.

[46:50] Meghan: Wow. Well, I hope we eventually find out why that image was in the show. So I can help you sort out why you chose it too.

[46:59] Harrow: That's yeah, it's wild. And I mean it's based on a real painter, so okay.

[47:03] Meghan: Wow, I need to look up it's the queer Sunday in the Park with George. It's what we needed.

[47:09] Harrow: Yeah.

[47:11] Meghan: That's awesome.

[47:12] Harrow: Yeah, I kept hearing it was coming to Broadway and then everything.

[47:17] Meghan: Yeah, who it needs to.

[47:19] Harrow: I will be so I will be there. The fact that it has music out makes me feel like they'll do something with it.

[47:25] Meghan: I hope so. Bring Eden back to Broadway.

[47:28] Harrow: Yeah, what's she doing? Just hanging out somewhere. Like, come on.

[47:34] Meghan: Do you have a queer culture wreck for us?

[47:36] Harrow: Yeah. Um, so this is a queer culture wreck that we have been indulging in for some time, as have our friends. Um, but I just wanted to shout out Dyke Beer. They're doing the good work here in New York City. It was created by a queer team who just wanted more queer representation in the brewery scene, the bar scene. Um, you can go on their website, dykebeer.com, and it'll give you a map of all the places that Dyke Beer is available. They also do a lot of pop-ups too. Like I know they do like queer karaoke and I saw that they were serving beer at self-defense classes, which I kind of love.

[48:16] Meghan: Oh, that's awesome.

[48:18] Harrow: That's a fun slash danger.

[48:19] Meghan: Yeah.

[48:21] Harrow: Um they only have, let's see, I think they have like four varieties out now. They started with just one, so they are expanding. Um sadly, they don't have like a tap room. I think they're a ghost brewery, so they brew at other people's tap rooms, which is cool. But yeah, check out Dyke Beer. Follow their Instagram because they always are posting about cool bar takeovers and stuff.

[48:42] Meghan: Yeah. I went to one of their events at Unnameable Books, and that was really fun.

[48:46] Harrow: Yeah.

[48:46] Meghan: And I think they just sell the beer there all the time too.

[48:49] Harrow: Yeah, you can definitely get it like Henrietta's and most of the gay bars, but it looks like on the map it's available a ton of places, so awesome.

[48:58] Meghan: Yeah. And the cans are very cute.

[49:00] Harrow: They are, yeah.

[49:01] Meghan: Yeah, they involve animals too, which that was great.

[49:05] Harrow: Know what the dykes want.

[49:06] Meghan: Yeah, exactly.

[49:08] Harrow: So yeah, get a Dyke Beer, listen to Lempicka. Put it on repeat. It's the perfect combo, honestly.

[49:17] Meghan: Well cool. Well this has been fun.

[49:20] Harrow: Yeah.

[49:20] Meghan: I'm so glad we got to see these shows and talk about them. Lots there to discuss. We'd love to hear your thoughts as well.

[49:27] Harrow: Yeah.

[49:28] Meghan: And we're gearing up for Tony's and Pride Month, so more to come. Talk to you soon queers.

[49:33] Harrow: Bye.

[49:35] Meghan: Thanks for listening. If you like, please follow, rate, and review us and share us with your friends. You can find us on Instagram and Twitter at Thesis on Joan.

[49:43] Harrow: We'd love to hear your queer culture recs and ideas for queering the canon. Send us an email at thesisonjoan at gmail.com or leave us a voicemail at 845-445-9251.

[49:55] Meghan: Come back for more interviews, fun queer content, recommendations, and discussions on current theater. Until next time, keep it queer not that it'd be that hard for y'all to do.

[50:11] Harrow: It was at Williamstown.

[50:15] Meghan: Maybe it's in Williamsburg too I don't know.

[50:18] Harrow: I wish it oh my god thank you.