This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:02] Alexi: Hi, I'm Alexi.

[0:05] Murtada: And I'm Murtada.

[0:07] Alexi: And we're your token theater friends.

[0:09] Murtada: Today we'll be talking about Honduras by Sara Farrington.

[0:13] Alexi: This production starred Valeria Vina and was commissioned by the All For One Theater Solo Collective Residency.

[0:22] Murtada: Alexi, I'm so excited to talk to you about that show.

[0:25] Alexi: But we're also gonna be talking about the movie Limbo, which comes out on April 30th.

[0:30] Murtada: It's directed by Ben Sharrock and stars Amir Al Mosri.

[0:33] Alexi: And what those both those pieces have in common is that they are both about the immigration process.

[0:43] Murtada: Yeah, I'm really excited to kind of go over how those shows really just link together so beautifully.

[0:49] Alexi: But first, we'd like to remind you that we're a completely crowdfunded podcast.

[0:54] Murtada: We're a community of BIPOC critics, journalists, and friends who love the performing arts so much.

[1:01] Alexi: We do a weekly podcast and web series.

[1:04] Murtada: We encourage you to join our friend zone on Patreon, and you can subscribe for a dollar a month.

[1:10] Alexi: Contributors receive a weekly newsletter, which I write, access to bonus episodes, and much more.

[1:18] Murtada: So before we talk about the shows that we were able to watch last week, I thought it'd be really interesting to kind of discuss the March on Broadway that also happened this week.

[1:30] Alexi: Have you heard much about it?

[1:32] Murtada: I have. I followed it just on social media on Twitter, like I saw people tweeting about it and sharing pictures and videos, so that's how I followed it, even though I am in New York, but my second vaccine shot is Monday.

[1:47] Alexi: So I'm just staying put, not leaving my apartment until I actually go get that shot.

[1:53] Murtada: That's fair.

[1:54] Alexi: I got my second vaccine appointment or my second vaccine like a week ago, or like a week and a half ago at this point.

[2:02] Murtada: Um, and it knocked me out for the whole day. I could not, I could not function.

[2:06] Alexi: Um, but the march on Broadway was organized in an effort to kind of address a lot of the different frustrations that theater makers, well, BIPOC theater makers as well as other marginalized theater makers have had in the industry.

[2:23] Murtada: And so I believe, so like you said, I think it had a lot of traction on social media, and 350 people attended, which is a huge showing.

[2:33] Alexi: It's very great.

[2:35] Murtada: Yeah, it is a huge showing. And sort of like this whole thing, of course, like started in the last, it's a reckoning that has been coming for a long time, but it started with this Hollywood Reporter piece about Scott Rudin.

[2:48] Alexi: And then last night, I think this was after the march, but last night, Vulture also dropped another more detailed piece about Scott Rudin in the voices of his assistants from like the last 20, 20-something years.

[3:04] Murtada: So it was a lot of assistants who worked for him, kind of in their words being interviewed by the reporters at Vulture.

[3:10] Alexi: So I think this plus the March plus everything that's happening, it's just becoming sort of a movement for better workplace, better representation on Broadway, and it's a reckoning that's, you know, long time coming.

[3:23] Murtada: Yeah, and I think what's really important is that with this reckoning, as they kind of address all the different things of Scott Rudin has done, and he's announced that he's taking a step back.

[3:35] Alexi: I'm glad we're not treating Scott Rudin as like a bad apple or like a singular instance of a bad dynamic.

[3:44] Murtada: And rather we're showing the system and the industry itself allowed for someone like Scott Rudin to exist.

[3:51] Alexi: And so a lot of the demands that are being made and asked for are something that leads to just systemic changes.

[3:59] Murtada: Well, first of all, they want the union to better represent its workers, right? But also they want kind of a larger sense of transparency.

[4:09] Alexi: They want like the demands included making sure we know what organizations are being worked with to improve anti-racist practices.

[4:17] Murtada: And I know that anti-racism for Broadway also asked to abolish the six-day work week, to get rid of 1012s, to have access to therapy.

[4:26] Alexi: You know, just those types of demands ensure that something like this doesn't happen again.

[4:32] Murtada: Because if you just get rid of the issue, you could have it just manifest in a different way.

[4:37] Alexi: Yeah, and you're absolutely right, Murtada. Like what I loved about the demands is that they, like you said, they went beyond Scott Rudin.

[4:44] Murtada: So some of the other things that this march demanded was sort of for greater Broadway representation and inclusion of BIPOC, trans, disabled, and other communities into this theater and into Broadway in particular.

[4:55] Alexi: And this is also things, you know, like you said, it's about time. We're way past time for those demands to be met.

[5:02] Murtada: So hopefully it will lead to greater representation and just better workplaces for everyone in theater.

[5:08] Alexi: Absolutely. And once we're both fully vaccinated in two weeks post, hopefully we can join those marches.

[5:15] Murtada: Yes.

[5:16] Alexi: Next march, you're on.

[5:18] Murtada: We're going, new and absolutely.

[5:20] Alexi: Well, now we can talk about the two shows that we were, or one show, one movie that we were able to watch this week.

[5:27] Murtada: Um, do you mind telling our listeners a little more about Limbo?

[5:32] Alexi: Yes, absolutely. So Limbo is a British film.

[5:35] Murtada: It is written and directed by Ben Sharrock.

[5:39] Alexi: It premiered, I think, at the Toronto Film Festival last fall, but it's coming to the US next this week.

[5:47] Murtada: What days?

[5:48] Alexi: April 30th, that's this week. It's this Friday.

[5:51] Murtada: And it's a story that the director, Ben Sharrock, sort of wrote based on his experiences talking to asylum seekers in the United Kingdom.

[6:04] Alexi: And the story is about this Syrian refugee who arrives at this remote Scottish island with other refugees.

[6:16] Murtada: He's a refugee from the Syrian civil war, but other people there are from Afghanistan, from Ghana, from Nigeria.

[6:23] Alexi: So it's about four men who come together to this island at the same time, all waiting to hear about their status, whether they're going to be granted asylum in the United Kingdom or not.

[6:35] Murtada: And the story sort of follows them in those few days as they learn about the UK, as they form friendships and alliances and tell their stories.

[6:45] Alexi: And sort of the main source of the narrative is about the main character, the Syrian refugee who's played by Amir Al-Masri in a wonderful, wonderful performance, and sort of how he's blocked.

[6:58] Murtada: Yes, he managed to survive, but there is the guilt of survival. Like he left, his parents are in Turkey, they didn't make it all the way to the UK.

[7:07] Alexi: His brother is still fighting in Syria.

[7:09] Murtada: And so the guilt of leaving behind the family, he's a musician, he can't play anymore.

[7:15] Alexi: And sort of the story tells us, he shows us how he can get over that.

[7:20] Murtada: And just how awful the waiting, the never knowing that even if you survive these circumstances and you're able to be alive, there is still so much that you carry with you that still holds you back.

[7:39] Alexi: And um, I found it really very moving.

[7:42] Murtada: Um, what did you think?

[7:44] Alexi: Yeah, I mean, that was a really great kind of like summary of that film. And I think for me, something that I thought a lot about, and you had mentioned was the guilt.

[7:54] Murtada: Um, and so throughout the film, he's able to speak with his family by going to a toll booth on the island, and um, or a phone booth, rather, sorry.

[8:07] Alexi: And he's able to make a phone call to his mother.

[8:10] Murtada: Um, and I remember one specific conversation where basically, um, basically the mother had asked for money, you know.

[8:19] Alexi: He had immigrated and she had expected that he had been able to maybe establish a life, get a steady-paying job that may have paid better than a job he had at home, or basically kind of like reap the benefits of like going to the land of opportunity.

[8:36] Murtada: And he had to tell his mother, I don't have any money right now, can you actually send me money?

[8:42] Alexi: Um, and I think that that's like a very familiar dynamic, and something that I have related to, not in that exact instance, but just that relationship between my parents who are immigrants from Guatemala, and kind of thinking they have made so many sacrifices.

[9:00] Murtada: So whatever I do has to be in an effort to kind of repay them for their sacrifices and maybe be able to provide some form of extra support to justify and validate the sacrifices they've made on their end.

[9:22] Alexi: And I think it's kind of an impossible situation to be in because I think there is this expectation that because you kind of quote unquote left, or maybe have gone to somewhere with more opportunity, things must happen, like in a certain way.

[9:36] Murtada: So that I really liked the movie because it kind of conveyed a lot about asylum seekers, immigrants.

[9:48] Alexi: Yeah, it's kind of like it's reminded me of um the Samuel Beckett play Waiting for Godot.

[9:54] Murtada: Because they're all waiting, but are they waiting for a real thing? Or is the thing they're waiting for really gonna happen?

[10:01] Alexi: And then it's just about what happens in that waiting period.

[10:05] Murtada: Um, and it's a movie like I I'm happy that you mentioned that it was funny because it does start with a very comical scene um where they're in a classroom and they're sort of being taught what's okay behavior or not okay behavior in social situations.

[10:21] Murtada: And it was like I was like, what is this movie? Um, but then you know, you know, it's like peeling an onion as you go on, it reveals it goes from comic to poignant to moving. It just it has a lot of tones to it, and they all fit together really well.

[10:38] Alexi: Yeah, when that opening scene started, I really did not know what was going on. And I at first thought I was like, okay, like, did I see the lot, did I get to the right movie? I think I'm really kind of like missing what the point here is. Um, but eventually I realized like that whimsy just I think the whimsy makes it a lot more interesting.

[11:01] Murtada: I think for me, when you think of like, oh, here is a movie about like immigrants or asylum seekers. We all know that there's so much trauma in those experiences, and a lot of films will kind of like pivot and lean into that and kind of show like a lot of scenes that are very shocking, and I mean, basically, kind of like shock value type scenes that like will kind of like just make you feel icky inside. And like honestly, I don't like those very much because I think that it kind of dramatizes an experience and kind of puts it on display for someone to consume. And I think this film was much better at kind of highlighting the nuances of an asylum seeker's experience without it being for lack of a better word, like trauma porn, you know?

[11:54] Alexi: Yeah, absolutely. And I also you know, I went through this process. I came to America, I'm an immigrant, I went through this whole system, and so this story really like hit me personally because um when when we talked about how there's that void, like even if you know you left the country because you had no other choice, basically. Most asylum seekers and most immigrants, yeah, some you know immigrate maybe for reasons of better economics, but whatever it is, sometimes you just can't survive where you were born. But it's also not an easy decision to make because you are leaving everything and everyone you know, like everything that you hold dear and everything that you know that sort of helps you navigate life behind you, and sort of jumping ahead into a perilous sometimes. The journey itself is perilous, but even if the journey is not perilous, just reaching over there psychologically, it's very hard.

[12:47] Murtada: And I think that movie was um was the metaphor of presenting this lead character as a musician who is blocked and can't play. It sort of dramatizes that well, that void that immigrants that I still feel. I have been in America for a long time now. But there's still a this this ache in my heart that I feel for my family, for this for Sudan, for Khartoum, where I grew up. Um, you know, things that you never think you're gonna miss when you're there. Like, you know, it's very hot in the summer in Khartoum, and so we sleep outside. And that's something I haven't slept outside since I've been in America, and that's like a long time now. And I sometimes I just wake up in the middle of the night, I'll be like, oh, I miss that so much. And so there is this thing that you carry with you all the time. And this movie really dramatizes that that well. Like I think um Ben Sharrock found this device in his um in his writing um and presented that really well.

[13:47] Alexi: Um, and of course, the performance of Amir al Masri is just so great at navigating that. Like he has this look on his face, it's so moving at all times. And you you look into his eyes and and the way he's expressing um his feelings um on screen, and you're like, you know, you kind of recognize what he's going to, or at least I did. Um, so I felt it really deep in my heart. It was a very personal experience watching this film.

[14:13] Murtada: No, absolutely. And I think so. When you talk about how there's always like something you're carrying with you in terms of like leaving home in a sense, right? And then trying to establish a new life. Obviously, the main character felt that, as you just said. And I think one way, one relationship I really enjoyed seeing develop throughout in the way that he coped with leaving home was his relationship with Farhad, and how like the two of them kind of became this duo in trying to navigate this limbo and figuring out like how do we get through day to day? And their relationship was so funny to me in a like a really endearing way because they really just supported each other, um, and just kind of like became friends out of circumstance.

[14:59] Alexi: And so, do you feel like there have been Farhads in your life as you've come to the US?

[15:07] Murtada: Yes, absolutely. I mean, you come and you you know no one, and then you start building um building a new family and new relationships, and and yeah, and so you know, so that the movie takes that even further by sort of what what do you what can you find in common? And the experience becomes the common thing that sort of leads you, you're going through this experience together. And most of my lasting friendships um since I've moved to the States have been with other immigrants um who sort of you know understand without you having to explain um to them like what you've gone through. You know, it's just an understanding, it's there.

[15:46] Alexi: So so the movie does, like you said, just sort of play that up. And it's it's that friendship was really something nice to see.

[15:54] Murtada: So this is like a good time at the movies. Yes, it's about this asylum seeker who escaped the Syrian Civil war, and he has this great guilt about that, especially leaving his brother behind who's still fighting who might not survive it, and there is you know the guilt of surviving. Um so it's a heavy, heavy sort of theme.

[16:12] Alexi: But yes, it was the friendship and the whimsical scenes and the comedy in it, and just the premise itself, you know, sort of basing it on. I don't know if this is what the director is thinking of, but I you know, basing it on Waiting for Godot, literally, because if they're just waiting there, I think it's it's an enjoyable time, um, despite the heavy scenes.

[16:34] Murtada: Absolutely. I I mean it was such a fun film to watch, and like I had mentioned before, it's so refreshing to have a film about the immigrant experience that isn't exhausting to watch because I remember talking to family members about prior films about immigrant experiences, and to them, they've like reiterated again and again that, like, okay, some of these like horrible scenes in a movie in the cry are real, but like to us, it's not a movie, it's real life, so like we're not trying to like see this at a movie theater on a Friday night, for example. But this film captures all of kind of like or not all, but a lot of the nuances of the immigrant and asylum seeking experience without necessarily exhausting someone who might have that shared background, and it might actually capture some of the fun, um, or rather some of the um positive experiences that come throughout these different painful times of transition, which I think there are always some silver linings.

[17:38] Murtada: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, these stories are not that easy to tell. Like you said, they're traumatizing. So sometimes, you know, and you know, you're dealing with oppressive immigration systems and you just want to leave the trauma behind. So it's not very easy. And I think one of the, I think maybe one of the reasons why Ben Sharrock was able to write this in this whimsical comedic tone is that he himself hasn't gone through the the um the process. Like I, you know, I can't think of writing a comedy about uh being an immigrant. It's just like it's so far out that it's like there's nothing funny about this. This is about heartache, this is about you know being mad at bureaucracy. This is about, you know, things that are just so far from comedy to me, but maybe because he based it on he was a volunteer um in Calais, so he based it on the stories of people he interacted with, but it wasn't something that he actually had gone through, so maybe that's why he was able to add this tone to it.

[18:39] Alexi: Um, and I think that tone sort of makes this a little bit different than the other stories we see. But in general, I sort of love that um asylum seekers and immigrants are starting to tell their stories. Um, I went to Sundance, went is this year is like, you know, quote unquote, because I was just in my couch watching movies from Sundance. And there is a lot of stories of movies that will be released later this year that are coming out about that experience, about the asylum seeker experience, documentaries and narrative. Um, you know, there's a movie called Flea, um, that's a documentary, and somebody's sort of like in animation tells their story, so that's coming up as something to look up to.

[19:18] Murtada: Um, but also um something else about this experience is the other show that um we watched this week. So, Alexi, what's can you tell our listeners about Honduras?

[19:32] Alexi: Yeah, absolutely. So this week we also watched Honduras by Sara Farrington, and Sara Farrington kind of took a similar approach in terms of how she came up with the stories for this um piece. She spoke with um different Honduran mothers who had immigrated from Honduras to the US, and then based on kind of interviews with these different um mothers that she interacts with based on volunteer work with a nonprofit that I believe is called Immigrant Families Together. She was able to bring this piece to light. Sara Farrington has made clear that kind of the experiences that are portrayed in this one woman show are actually not exaggerated at all, but they are kind of dramatized and the names have been changed.

[20:23] Alexi: And essentially the show itself follows several Honduran mothers as they immigrate to the US, and you get a sense of how people get lost in the system.

[20:35] Alexi: Unlike Limbo, this does give a front, like kind of gives a very unvarnished view of the traumas that kind of exist within the process of crossing the border.

[20:48] Alexi: But of course, I think for me personally, hearing these stories hit a lot more impactfully knowing that they're kind of told from interviews. Because I am a big fan of leveraging oral histories and turning that into theater that helps tell a shared experience, and that's exactly what this show did. Um, but tell me, Murtada, what did you think of the show when you saw it?

[21:12] Murtada: Yeah, um, I found it very moving. And it just me, I wish that you know, we were able to see it in a theater instead of um on a screen. But yeah, and the I think it's a one-woman show, so the actor is just amazing. So there, yeah, Abina who plays all the parts and sort of has to play uh different experiences, different ages, different genders, and she's able to do all that and sort of command the screen and make you, you know, not take your eyes off of her. Um, and it's, you know, we talked about how Ben Sharrock found some whimsy and some comedy in these stories, but I think what Sara Farrington did is that she presented it um unvarnished. So you're just, you're getting these experiences through this one actor's performance who's doing everything, and you're just like, and I think that is not that one approach is better than the other, it's just a completely different approach. And I think they both sort of reach the audience with the message they're trying to say.

[22:14] Alexi: Like you said, the fact that it was a one-woman show and she played every character so differently, like at a certain point, I really didn't even have to think about who was who really reminded me of Anna Deavere Smith's work, who also uses oral histories to kind of tell a shared experience within the community. So when Anna Deavere Smith did Fires in the Mirror or Twilight Los Angeles, she also played all of the characters that were just her interview subjects.

[22:46] Alexi: So that was really a really kind of like, I don't know, it's rare that you see someone be able to take on so many different personas. And I also couldn't take my eyes off the screen, and I was really surprised because it was been really hard for me to find pandemic theater that has like engaged me so fully. But I really enjoyed this piece. I think the stories that were told were really, really valuable.

[23:12] Alexi: And I think for me, there was a conversation between one mother who got bailed out by a group of white mothers in New York who had heard about her story on like WNYC. And just that interaction, the car ride conversation, I thought was my favorite part of the show because obviously the Honduran mother is shocked and kind of speechless and figuring out how do I navigate being bailed out and establish my new life. And the mother, the white mom who had helped bail her out, was like, why are you silent? Talk to me, tell me your story, basically, you know.

[23:50] Alexi: And I think that kind of like desire for a transaction was like kind of upsetting to hear, but I also loved that the Honduran mother was like, I will stay speechless because right now I don't know what's going on, and I don't owe you a story per se, you know? That's how I read it, at least.

[24:12] Murtada: Yeah, I sort of wrote down that um because I thought that what I thought it was a little bit of levity in this story, like when she talks about how Americans can stand silences. I think she said something like Americans can't deal with silence because unsaid words become secrets, and then um secrets are poison, and then you become unhappy, and that's a cardinal sin in America.

[24:35] Alexi: Yeah, that is so um, I thought that sort of like, oh yeah, I recognize that. But you know, to add to what you were saying about that particular story, I think what also really just moved me about this piece is that it goes into detail about the journey, like the journey from one place to the other. Like here in this, it's these women who start in Honduras and go through Mexico and come to the States, and sort of like the show tells you how um harrowing the experience was, how unsafe it was, you know, um, and then it goes into detail of like taking one bus and then taking the other bus and all the characters that sort of meet along the way.

[25:20] Alexi: You almost never hear these stories. The stories are just about sort of like when you see these stories, you see about where you came from, what happened to you there, and what you're trying to do over here. But this one, like I really love this sort of interest in the journey itself, because the journey is not easy. Like, there are so many things that could go wrong. There's so many awful people you can meet on the way that can, you know, that you might not even get to where you want to get um because of what happens on the journey.

[25:50] Murtada: And I think that was really dramatized well in Honduras, and it was performed absolutely wonderfully, and it sort of just tells you what can go wrong, and even if you survive, you arrive with more baggage, with more scars, with so many things that you have gone through. And I sort of love the show for focusing a little bit on that on the journey.

[26:19] Alexi: Uh, when you had mentioned that scene of levity where she said being unhappy is a sin, a cardinal sin in America. I immediately thought to myself, no, the cardinal sin is pretending is admitting you're unhappy. If you admit you're unhappy, that's a cardinal sin. Because there's so many people unhappy, but over here, it seems like you have to continue to like match the ideals of the American dream and say, like, I am happy because I'm working hard and trying to strive to achieve success.

[26:51] Murtada: I think that's it's sort of like one of the things that you um that's hard to adjust to at first when you move to America. It's just like the thing of like the demand for happiness at all times. Like, you know, I it's not something I personally have grew up with. Certainly, you know, uh, when you grow up in a sort of a harsh environment, um, where um and you go through this thing of like you just want to survive, then you know the happiness thing becomes a little bit secondary, and you don't think about it, and then you have to sort of adjust now that you're here.

[27:22] Murtada: Oh, now I need to like work on demanding happiness or trying to be happy at all times. No, it's um, it's definitely something that I feel like I've encountered a lot. Um, and I feel like I've been in different environments um throughout my life that have like given it different names.

[27:42] Murtada: So uh for college, for example, my peers called it like pen face, which is like you're always pretending to be happy. Um, and then you're even though you're like under the mask of happiness, you're like very stressed, anxious, etc. etc. And I've heard it framed as also like I think it's just like duck syndrome. So it's like you look calm above the water, but under the water, you're like paddling very like furiously, just trying to do everything to stay afloat.

[28:11] Alexi: So I mean, the sentiment is there. Um, and it was fun to hear it reflected in the piece. So are you familiar with Sara Farrington's work?

[28:21] Murtada: Because I don't think I am. Um, and this is such um such a confident piece of theater.

[28:29] Alexi: No, I know I haven't heard of Sara Farrington either. It's um before this work. So I think this was a really great introduction to her work. I know that she has done a lot more because I believe she's been nominated for Drama Desk Awards and the like.

[28:45] Murtada: So like she's done very successful work, but this is my introduction to her. I just know that this was commissioned by the All For One Theater Solo Collective Residency, and it's been put up several times in New York, and now it's now streamed because of the pandemic. But I'm hoping it gets put up again in person because, like you said, I'd love to see this in person.

[29:08] Alexi: Yeah, so it's I think it's streamed on the 19th, and it's streaming again on May 3rd to May 8th. So if people want to check it out, there's still um there's there's time to check it out. And in the show notes, you'll find the link to to where you can stream it at.

[29:27] Murtada: I think we both recommend it, right, Alexi.

[29:30] Alexi: Absolutely.

[29:31] Alexi: It was so wonderful to talk with you today about Honduras and Limbo. I enjoyed our conversation. And before we go, let our listeners know where they can find you.

[29:42] Murtada: You can just find me on Twitter at M E underscore CES.

[29:47] Alexi: And you can find me on Twitter at Alexei C213. And I also host the Sundays with Skate Podcast, which is a podcast dedicated to the films of Cate Blanchett, and that you can find it anywhere you listen to podcasts or at sundayswithskate.com.

[30:05] Murtada: Oh, that's so fun.

[30:07] Alexi: I'm Alexi.

[30:08] Murtada: And I'm Murtada.

[30:10] Alexi: And we're your Token Theater friends. We'll be back next week.