This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ruthie Fierberg: I'm Ruthie Fierberg, and this is Why We Theater.

[0:05] Ruthie Fierberg: The podcast that digs into the onstage works we love to make the offstage change we need.

[0:12] Ruthie Fierberg: After all, that is Why We Theater.

[0:17] Ruthie Fierberg: Today we welcome Melissa Li and Kit Yan, who co-wrote the fantastic new musical, Interstate.

[0:24] Ruthie Fierberg: The show is an Asian American pop rock poetry musical that follows Dash, a transgender spoken word performer who becomes internet famous, along with his best friend Adrian, a lesbian singer-songwriter.

[0:37] Ruthie Fierberg: Their band, known as Queer Malady, embarks on a tour across America.

[0:42] Ruthie Fierberg: Their music inspires tons of members of their communities, including Henry, a trans teenage boy in small town America, navigating his own identity.

[0:52] Ruthie Fierberg: But Interstate isn't a musical about trans rights or Asian American hate.

[0:57] Ruthie Fierberg: Interstate is a best friend road trip story.

[1:00] Ruthie Fierberg: So today's episode deviates from our usual issue-driven path and focuses on representation as we talk with Melissa, Kit, and experts Sheena Brevig and AC Dumlao.

[1:24] Melissa Li: Ruthie!

[1:25] Ruthie Fierberg: Hi!

[1:26] Kit Yan: Hi, Ruthie.

[1:28] Ruthie Fierberg: I'm so excited to see you guys.

[1:30] Kit Yan: It's gosh, I can't wait to see you in person.

[1:33] Melissa Li: That's gonna be the real moment.

[1:35] Ruthie Fierberg: But I will settle for this right now.

[1:40] Ruthie Fierberg: I mean, for those of you listening, this is so fun for me because I came to Kit and Melissa through writing about Interstate and hadn't seen it, hadn't listened to it.

[1:53] Ruthie Fierberg: Just like we were just talking about it like it's an abstract musical, and then read the script, listened to the demos, and I am fully in love with it.

[2:03] Ruthie Fierberg: Like fully in love with it.

[2:05] Ruthie Fierberg: The music, you guys, is so good.

[2:07] Ruthie Fierberg: You can listen to some of the demos on Interstate Musical.com.

[2:11] Ruthie Fierberg: But I'm just excited to talk about it again.

[2:13] Ruthie Fierberg: So I actually I want to rewind a little bit to your relationship as collaborators.

[2:18] Ruthie Fierberg: What attracted you to each other creatively?

[2:23] Melissa Li: That's such a funny question.

[2:25] Melissa Li: What because I don't think we've ever been asked that.

[2:47] Kit Yan: And that, like, nobody's ever asked why he did that.

[2:53] Kit Yan: Or what made you say yes.

[2:55] Melissa Li: Or what made me say yes, exactly.

[2:58] Melissa Li: Yeah.

[2:58] Melissa Li: Well, I guess Kit, then, since you're the one who who made the approach, like, what was it about Melissa as an artist that you were like, this person is someone I see connecting with, you know, gelling with that our art would be complimentary.

[3:17] Kit Yan: Was it because I was just there?

[3:19] Kit Yan: Wow.

[3:21] Kit Yan: You could say it.

[3:22] Kit Yan: Hello.

[3:22] Kit Yan: We were performing at a queer Asian Cabaret Shocks, but before that, we met at an Asian sisters in action event.

[3:30] Melissa Li: Mm-hmm.

[3:31] Melissa Li: Back when you were an Asian Asian sister in action.

[3:33] Kit Yan: I'm still.

[3:36] Kit Yan: So what okay.

[3:38] Melissa Li: I don't really remember meeting you at that.

[3:40] Kit Yan: Uh, that's right.

[3:41] Kit Yan: So Kit didn't remember me at all.

[3:43] Melissa Li: And I was like, who is this person?

[3:46] Melissa Li: Um sort of like, I think the way that Kit was carrying himself, I felt like, oh, this is like a very famous spoken word artist from Hawaii.

[3:56] Kit Yan: Which famous and spoken words are not.

[3:58] Kit Yan: Famous spoken words.

[3:59] Kit Yan: That doesn't make sense to me.

[4:02] Melissa Li: So at the first event, I knew we had like overlapping identities.

[4:07] Melissa Li: We shared some identities.

[4:10] Melissa Li: And then we were performing adjocks at the Queer Asian cabaret, in which like we were performing just like every week, whatever inspired us.

[4:19] Kit Yan: Saw Melissa just performing super emotional songs.

[4:22] Kit Yan: That's probably what attracted me most to her work.

[4:25] Kit Yan: Is that uh a lot of the songs were deeply personal?

[4:29] Kit Yan: Uh they I'd what your stuff is like 80% like about love, right?

[4:34] Melissa Li: Your singer, songwriter, material.

[4:37] Melissa Li: Yeah, I guess so.

[4:38] Melissa Li: Yeah, though a lot of it was.

[4:40] Melissa Li: I just liked how um emotive you were, and and maybe you know what?

[4:46] Melissa Li: Love is not something I write about particularly.

[4:49] Melissa Li: I don't often feel inspired by that.

[4:51] Kit Yan: So I do actually think there's something in your work that I'm not really able to do that must have drawn me to it.

[4:59] Ruthie Fierberg: So when it comes to Interstate in particular, I know that the plot of Interstate, at least the beginning of it, is based on your own friendship and experience.

[5:11] Ruthie Fierberg: And Adrian is kind of this avatar for Melissa, Dash is a bit an avatar for Kit.

[5:18] Ruthie Fierberg: Your band in real life, Good Asian Drivers becomes Queer Malady.

[5:22] Ruthie Fierberg: So why did you guys choose to write a version of your own story?

[5:29] Melissa Li: Yeah, I think this sort of I don't think we set out to write a story about this.

[5:37] Melissa Li: Um I like we tell the story a lot, but I think like I I had been writing musical theater, not a lot of it, but I'd done some of it prior to us going on tour.

[5:47] Melissa Li: And it was never something that came up as something that I wanted to do again after I had dug that the first time, to be totally honest.

[5:54] Melissa Li: It was it was hard.

[5:55] Melissa Li: It took a really long time.

[5:56] Melissa Li: So I never thought that Kit and I would be doing exactly what we're doing now, which is writing musicals.

[6:01] Melissa Li: So it really was that a lot of things happened while we were on the road, which some of which made it into the show.

[6:10] Melissa Li: Um, and and you know, he and I, I don't think this gives away the ending, but he, you know, he and I had a falling out after the uh the tour.

[6:22] Melissa Li: And um, and I think we were just growing up and we were trying to figure out things about life and what happened on the road and our relationship and our friendship, and um, so individually we were he was writing about it, but I was thinking about it.

[6:37] Melissa Li: And so when we came back together, it really felt like something that we wanted to do.

[6:42] Melissa Li: Um and it was Kit's idea actually to to make it a musical.

[6:46] Ruthie Fierberg: We won't say why, we won't say what happens, but there is a falling out.

[6:50] Ruthie Fierberg: So, so then I guess I'll pose the question to you, Kit of like when you reestablish your friendship and your and your creative partnership, why go back to this thing that led to such pain and like end the falling out?

[7:10] Kit Yan: What a great question.

[7:11] Kit Yan: That's a great question, yeah.

[7:13] Kit Yan: The musical for us really um like gave us an opportunity to feel and and heal through that time.

[7:22] Kit Yan: I didn't think it was gonna be like a 10-year healing process, but here we are.

[7:26] Melissa Li: I was gonna say, but here you are in musical theater.

[7:29] Ruthie Fierberg: And I actually want to ask you, in terms of that healing and writing it, are you writing Dash and Melissa is saying, Well, actually, this is how I remember you, and and Melissa's writing Adrian, and you're saying, Well, actually, this is how I remember writing you, or is it fully like you're going scene by scene?

[7:49] Kit Yan: Like, what's the share of it?

[7:51] Kit Yan: Yeah, that's such a great question because um I would say part of the reason why it's taken so long was because the beginning we really did approach it like let's process everything that happened, or let's let's you know, document or archive, you know, what had happened to us, like in the form of this story and the show.

[8:10] Kit Yan: You know, I mean, we're also new at collaborating, we're new at writing, we're like new at the form, you know.

[8:18] Kit Yan: Um so for us it's like, okay, well, let's just write down exactly everything that happened.

[8:22] Kit Yan: And then we learned as as the years went on and we were developing it and we were workshopping it, we were like, oh, teasing out the themes that are coming to the surface that are um probably that were mixed in with our real life experiences, but weren't the themes that were the main themes that were going through our heads when we were traveling, right?

[8:41] Kit Yan: So things like toxic masculinity, things like parents and and um, and like you know, our our idols having flaws, and just like a lot of themes that we're starting to tease out, and then our characters start to take their own shape and take their take a life of their own, and and at that point, in a way, it becomes more real, even though it diverges from reality a little bit more.

[9:07] Kit Yan: Um, and so there's a freedom to that, I think, uh, in the creation process.

[9:12] Kit Yan: I think we're going on year nine of working on Interstate now.

[9:15] Kit Yan: Since like we did Nymph in 2018, we've been working on it nonstop since then, but uh up till then, sometimes there were maybe six months we didn't work on it, we were just like you know, living our lives and being friends and hanging out.

[9:29] Kit Yan: Um of that distance from the material gave us an opportunity to like step back from like the intense healing process of our healing our friendship through writing a musical.

[9:40] Kit Yan: And then that gave us like a an opportunity to zoom out and say, like, what happened on the road?

[9:45] Kit Yan: We that besides the interpersonal relationships and drama between us, like we went out on the road to to share our art and meet other people like us.

[9:55] Kit Yan: We wanted to meet other queers, other trans people, other Asian Americans, other people of color, women, artists, um, people of all ages and um immigrants, and we we like from having a little bit of distance from the material, we're able to incorporate what we saw and felt and heard on the road as well, um, in in like the later drafts of Interstate after we'd sort of gotten through like what was happening between us.

[10:22] Ruthie Fierberg: Yeah, so that's really fascinating because as I said to you, Kit, we've been talking for a while of oh, I think we should do an Interstate episode on the podcast, and then when I read the script and listened to the music, I said to you, like, I don't know, I don't know that this is right.

[10:39] Ruthie Fierberg: Because like the listeners, as you can hear, like Interstate is really a story about love and a story about friendship.

[10:46] Ruthie Fierberg: And it just happens to be that the lead characters are a lesbian of Asian descent, a trans man of Asian descent.

[10:54] Ruthie Fierberg: And I didn't want to make the identities of your characters the issue.

[11:00] Ruthie Fierberg: Because really, so many of the things we delve into here are issue-driven.

[11:05] Ruthie Fierberg: And of course, they're always about people, but the issue is usually at the center of whatever work we talk about.

[11:12] Ruthie Fierberg: And yet, Kit, you felt that that's exactly why we should talk about Interstate on the pod.

[11:20] Kit Yan: Yeah.

[11:21] Kit Yan: I mean, I I do think you hit the nail on the head, Ruthie, um, in your assessment of reading the script, and that like the the show is really about two friends.

[11:31] Kit Yan: Um, but it happens to be that they're an activist band.

[11:35] Kit Yan: So these two friends, while they're, you know, becoming friends and going on this fun road trip, they're also on when they're not doing that on stage, they're talking about um anti-Asian violence and hate.

[11:49] Kit Yan: They're talking about trans issues, they're talking about being queer, they're they're an activist band out there, like talking about the issues.

[11:57] Kit Yan: But a lot of times during the show, the issues they really face are the issues just between the two of them.

[12:03] Ruthie Fierberg: Right.

[12:04] Kit Yan: I do think that in in their friendship, it's informed by the issues around them.

[12:09] Kit Yan: You know, some things are uh for for Dash, sometimes things are hard to communicate to Adrian because he's going through something that is related to gender that he's inherited from his father in terms of like toxic masculine behavior, but he is not able to articulate that to his best friend in a really clear way.

[12:31] Kit Yan: So he acts out by you know doing something shitty to her.

[12:35] Kit Yan: Um, and so the pressures of the pressure cooker of the world around them that informs their identities are also really getting into their friendship, even though that's not the main, you know, leading point of the show.

[12:51] Ruthie Fierberg: Yeah, but that the representation in and of itself is the activism to a degree here, and I'm curious.

[13:02] Ruthie Fierberg: You know, you do have the subplot with the character of Henry, who is a high schooler who who finds Queer Malady um as sort of a refuge as they're figuring out their identity, um, you know, assigned female at birth and named Priya, and you know, in this high school setting of, you know, who do I tell that I have changed my name?

[13:26] Ruthie Fierberg: What is my place?

[13:28] Ruthie Fierberg: And I'm wondering in the development of the musical, has anyone tried to push you to emphasize that story to make it more of a trans or a queer identity story?

[13:44] Kit Yan: Yeah, all the time.

[13:46] Kit Yan: Like, like every time, like literally every time.

[13:49] Kit Yan: Like we've actually had folks tell us, you know, like we'll, you know, we'll do this musical if we just got rid of Dash and Adrian, and it's just about Henry's struggle, right?

[13:59] Melissa Li: And I think for us, we didn't really want to do that, to be honest, because we don't want to tell that story. We've seen that story of that trans kid in isolation struggling, right? We're not saying that's not an important piece of the story, that's why it's in our story. Um, but it's really to us what's most interesting is the parallel, right? Between so to just show, like, actually, there's like an entire spectrum of trans folks out there and trans lives, right? And um, and and and different journeys of their life as well. And so to us it's more interesting to see the dynamic between like what Dash is struggling as like an older but still young, like an older trans guy who's been on T for five years, and then like Henry, who's looking up to him, but like is still figuring out identity.

So it's really about the parallel that's interesting to us. So yeah, absolutely. My eyes were just like bugging out of my head because I know that like I, as someone outside of the community am constantly told that that's what producers ask for, that's what studio heads ask for, that's what artistic, oh, we want this, and it just blows my mind that like I that it's true, I guess. I don't know why. It's so I mean, if and if I'm frustrated by it, I mean, I can't imagine what you guys feel, but like good for you for sticking to your guns. One of the lines that stands out most to me is when Dash and Adrian are at the Philly, the museum in Philly, and they ask about going inside and like, oh, do you need to use the bathroom?

And Dash is like, I don't know, they have single stalls. Right. That is such a reality, and the show doesn't have to be about that in order to make that point and for it to clearly stick with me as a cis woman. Yeah. So I just I love all of these small moments, and um, and we're gonna get into all of it because what I want to talk about today is like the importance of this representation, how we get more of it, more authentic representation, and um how we can push for that in all art. And we have some fantastic experts with us today to help us do that.

[16:18] Ruthie Fierberg: So I want to bring them in. Um, we have AC Dumlao, who is a transgender, non-binary, first generation Filipino American activist. They are the program director at the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, where AC manages the name change project and leads the fund's community education initiatives and is the lead trainer for transcultural competency presentations and workshops. I am so excited to have them here today. Welcome, AC.

[16:50] AC Dumlao: Thank you for having me, Ruthie, and hi Kit and Melissa.

[16:53] Melissa Li: Hi, AC.

[16:54] Ruthie Fierberg: So honored to talk to you today.

[16:56] AC Dumlao: I know. It's the honor is mine. And then we also have joining us Sheena Brevig, who is a junior fellow at the Center for Scholars and Storytellers, the only youth-centered organization that bridges the gap between social science research and media creation. I am now obsessed with the center since Finding It and Finding Sheena. Um, Sheena is also a filmmaker and uses her storytelling as advocacy for mental health and disability awareness, specifically in her LGBTQ and Asian communities. Welcome, Sheena.

[17:29] Sheena Brevig: Thank you so much. Thank you all for having me. Hi, Kit. Hi, Melissa. Hi, hi AC.

[17:35] AC Dumlao: Ah, this is such an honor.

[17:36] Sheena Brevig: Hi, Sheena.

[17:37] AC Dumlao: Hello, Sheena. So excited to be with you today and an honor to chat with you.

[17:42] Ruthie Fierberg: Picking up where we just left off, which is those small tiny details that make big impact, like the mention of, I don't know if there's a single stall bathroom, like the radio interview where it's in, you know, it's an Asian American interviewer and presumably predominantly Asian listening audience, and they're like, oh, what's your Asian pet peeve? And it's this very like comfortable um home space for them. And I loved hearing about the Asian pet peeves of Adrian and Dash. Like, I guess, Sheena, we'll start with you. Like, what was the personal impact of hearing those specific details? Does that feel authentic to you throughout the script?

[18:28] Sheena Brevig: Yes, yes, yes, yes, and yes. I just have been loving this conversation so far. Um, Kit and Melissa, the way you brought just all this authenticity to the story. So I'm half Japanese, half Caucasian, so I have a whole identity thing around, you know, not being Asian enough or white enough and all of that. Um but with Interstate, it was just so fun to get to watch a story of these characters that I could relate to in ways that I often can't. You know, as a queer woman and as an Asian woman, I just I loved it. So those little things like the pet peeves, um, that to me was just so fun. It's just, it just like makes me giddy to see that kind of representation. And the um uh the the moment with the bathroom was just so beautifully placed.

Like that's what I thought as as kind of the storyteller, right? As the storyteller, I was like, oh my gosh, this is a beautiful way to weave in a moment that is, you know, educational in a sense and informative, but it's not hitting people over the head with it, like Ruthie said. Like it's not, you know, it's not story about that, but that's a real moment. And as a cis woman who, you know, I have many trans friends, but that just wasn't something that had crossed my mind. Um, you know, but but I was like, oh my gosh, of course. Like, and so anyway, I just thought you guys really tastefully wove in a lot of stuff that ends up being informative and educational, but in a way that was just natural to the storyline and just kept it about these characters.

Um and just one last thing, uh, you know, talking about the fact that uh, you know, Ruth, you mentioned whether or not to do this interstate episode because of the stuff around issues and this podcast, and I'm just so grateful that you are doing this episode because we need stories, we need so many more stories that are um not about the issues specifically, but are just about characters living their lives who happen to be queer and trans and Asian and that you know bring out this intersectionality that all of us experience, just as humans. So just thank you, Kit and Melissa for writing this and creating this and Ruthie, thank you for doing this podcast.

[20:53] Ruthie Fierberg: Absolutely. It's so my pleasure to be able to dig into this. AC, how about for you from your perspective? Like, does this feel authentic? What's your reaction? And I know that you've known about Interstate, you know, for a while before this particular discussion.

[21:08] AC Dumlao: I know. I was actually like looking in my email for where my tickets were, so I could accurately say um that I did go see it at Nymph back in 2018 on Theatre Row. Yeah, I think it's not only, you know, as we have heard from Melissa and Kit that it it's a story, it's a it's a love story, a love friendship story. Um, but I think this discussion about like these kind of little tidbits that don't over-explain. Um, I having seen the show and and thinking about the show, the show is a love letter to uh an audience of you know historically excluded people, right? So we are talking about being queer and and trans and Asian, and obviously I I have all those identities, but um just to have this art that's that's saying, you know, we we aren't going to um make this lowest common denominator to make sure that the white cishat you know audience gets it um is is really refreshing and important, right?

Because trans stories, Asian stories, queer stories, like we're not a monolith, even though so many times kind of we we become asked to to represent the community because there's so few um representations, and that's not for lack of them existing, it's it's also this production side that you were talking about, Ruthie, like whose stories get to be told.

[22:41] Ruthie Fierberg: Right, right. Kit and Melissa, I'm curious from the writing side, like how those they say God is in the details. So how do those come up for you guys in the writing process? Like, is it something that gets added in afterwards? Is it something that just comes naturally through the dialogue? Like, I guess I'm asking, like, how concerted is the effort behind those small moments?

[23:08] Kit Yan: Yeah. Like at this point, it's very concerted. I mean, we were working, I mean, I uh we, you know, we wrote it, but we also have to give credit to our fantastic and wonderful dramaturg uh Natasha Sinha, who's been helping us for many years, actually since um 2018 at Nymph, and um our brilliant director Jessica Prudencio, who's also asking amazing questions whenever we're in a workshop or doing productions. So these things come up, and I those two specific moments you talk about, like were really, really intentional. So, you know, we want to show that Dash doesn't talk a whole lot about you know how difficult or any any sort of difficulties that he might have as a trans man. He's been, I mean, he's in a different place in life, it's kind of based on Kit himself, you know, he's such a happy, joyous person who lives life, and you know, it's just it's not, it's yeah, it's not like he's like struggling every day, you know, um, with his identity, but there are still things that, like you said, like we don't think about as cis folks that like trans folks go through, like they have to think about where to pee, you know.

So something like that, like a small detail, like we just want to show, like, yep, like he he has a different, he moves through life in a different way, right, than we do. And so, um, so that was really intentional. Um, and as for the other piece with like the Asian stuff, I think what was what's interesting about the DJ scene that we wanted to uh get across is that like we all have blind spots, and so they're really comfortable in this space where they're with like an Asian DJ and they're joking around about like all this Asian jokes and and they feel really comfortable, but then he goes ahead and maybe says something that's like uncomfortable, uh and like you know, transphobic and misogynist, and so it's really to show how even in those spaces, you know, some yeah, they have blind spots, and that it can get uncomfortable for these two characters that really live in that intersection.

[25:10] Ruthie Fierberg: Yeah, I'm really glad you brought that up because it was this moment of like total comfort. We're in this, we're on the same plane, and then it's like whoa, it's like magnets. I should just quote the script because it says it best. One minute they're joking about Asian pet peeves, and this is a commonality they have, and they're laughing together, and the next minute the radio DJ says, but you're a transsexual, right? And Dash says, I'm transgender. And the DJ goes, so what does that mean? You were born a boy, a girl, and it's like cringy. And then later the DJ says, Adrian's not a transgender too, right? Because I was about to say, she looks amazing, and if she were, then I would have been questioning my own sexuality, you know.

They're coming together, they're coming together, and then they are not in the same place. Dialogue and relationship and character and world building-wise, like um we do try to reflect in our shows just the experiences we have in our lives. We try to write the characters in ways that they would actually speak to each other, two friends who are um queer, one is trans and one is a lesbian, and using like the lingo, the slang, the terminology, the shorthand that these people would use with each other. Um, and and to sort of also just assume that our audience will will go on that journey with us, um, and to assume that uh they they will, you know, if if there's something people don't know, they'll go home and they'll figure it out, or they'll sit among each other in a theater and have um really interesting discourse afterwards. And and so we tr we really try to make sure that our our dialogue is just reflective of our communities.

[26:57] Melissa Li: You're giving the context clues that we can figure it out, or like you said, like go home, Google is a thing. Um I'm also you know, in talking about creating this authenticity, because it's not just representation, it's about authentic representation. It does no one any good if we're just seeing, you know, characters of Asian descent in a way that is untrue to that identity. So, and the same thing for the queer representation. AC, I'm curious because you work in cultural competency. How do you communicate basically like details about identity to people outside of the community within the community to get everyone talking the same language?

[27:47] AC Dumlao: Absolutely. Um, it's funny what you said about Google. I feel like my job is being a real-life Google for people. But that's okay because that's what I choose for my career, um, as opposed to an average trans-Asian person who is like in software, you know, does something else, um, who can also receive questions and have to represent their whole community, which is not fair. But anyway, um, how do I get people to be on the same page? Um, so I primarily, um, with Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, um, give kind of a trans 101 training, not that you can, you know, take all of the classes and become culturally competent or sensitive. It's a lifelong journey. But something that I do is I always kind of give definitions at the beginning of the training, kind of, you know, gender identity and expression, cisgender, transgender, non-binary, because the way I preface it is by saying these are the ways that I, AC and TLDEF define these terms, and different people will define them different ways, but in the context, you know, of this next 60 minutes, 90 minutes, um, I want to make sure we're all on the same page because I find so many times that people say, "Oh, I didn't think that gender could be put into expression versus identity," and that, you know, gender expression is relevant to cisgender people who can subvert, you know, binary um, gendered norms and expectations.

[29:30] Ruthie Fierberg: I actually even want to pause you because I think even I have sometimes confusion between gender expression and gender identity. So can you walk us through the way you define those two terms?

[29:48] AC Dumlao: I would love to. When I'm giving a Zoom training, I'll usually say identity is inside all of us, and expression is what we see of each other in our little Zoom square. So identity is who you are regardless of your assigned sex at birth and what other people may call you or think you are. So I am a non-binary person, even if people make assumptions about my gender by looking at me. And when they're looking at me, they're looking at my gender expression, which all people have, trans and cis. So expression can be described as feminine or androgynous or masculine. But those are also putting people into categories. And we know that cisgender men have long hair and wear nail polish, and we know that cisgender women can wear pantsuits and have short haircuts, and they're still the gender that they are.

And so that is why I make sure to say both gender identity and expression, particularly in the context of the work in my organization, because people are discriminated against based off of both their identity and expression. So, you know, hearing from say a butch lesbian cisgender woman can experience discrimination in a women's bathroom if someone assumes that they are a different gender because they look more masculine, right?

[31:19] Ruthie Fierberg: Is it fair to say that the gender expression is a little bit what is subjected to the quote social construct of gender, but the gender identity would not be because it's internal?

[31:32] AC Dumlao: That is a great question. I think you can't have one without the other, but expression does not inform identity. So, for example, if we take um, if we take Dash, who is a trans man, if Dash decided to spend the rest of his life wearing dresses and makeup, Dash is still a trans man. Trans man, no matter whether he is dressing in any kind of way. But because of this kind of binary assumption or understanding or misconception of trans as one gender to another, that's where the assumption is, you know, a trans woman who is assigned male at birth wants to be super feminine or vice versa. And that's just not true. And when it comes to gender expression, um, what can happen though is when transgender and non-binary and gender expansive people push the boundaries of what's expected because of their assigned sex, they can experience or do experience a lot more discrimination and violence and bigotry as opposed to say cisgender people who are honestly seen celebrated for pushing norms.

So when we think about David Bowie, when we think about Prince, when we think about Janelle Monáe, um, who is queer, but is is uh we we don't get as much leeway. Or like I'm thinking like Billy Porter most recently, right? Like that is a great example, actually, because Billy Porter has been critiqued for getting the kind of spotlight shown on him when his co-stars are transgender women and non-binary people of color, um, but kind of the focus goes to Billy on the runway. Um, and what does that say when this is a show that is being lauded for its trans representation?

[33:32] Ruthie Fierberg: Yeah, really fascinating. Really fascinating. So now I have to ask you: is there anywhere that anyone listening out there could watch or find your like trans 101 or any 101 for that matter, like beginning of cultural competency? Like what is a resource for people who want to become more culturally sensitive?

[33:56] AC Dumlao: Sure. Well, I would love to get in touch with folks through my organization, which is the Transgender Legal Defense and Education Fund, TLDEF.org. Folks should get in contact with me, and I would love to do a training for them. And there are various articles and videos that I've been featured in because I talk about all of this a lot.

[34:18] Ruthie Fierberg: Amazing. Well, we will include definitely links to that in show notes. And I think that cultural sensitivity is the gateway to authentic representation. Sheena, I know that the center has done research on like the effects of that, the effects of seeing either yourself or even just someone different from you. What do we know about the kind of impact watching a story like Interstate can make on youth, both who are part of the community and outside of the community?

[34:53] Sheena Brevig: There's, yeah, there's a lot of kind of different ways to approach the impact of authentic representation and inclusion. Um, the first thing that comes to mind, the center released a report. It's the AIR report, and it's um authentically inclusive representation. So what they did is this is in film specifically, but they took 109 films, uh, ranging in, you know, from small budget to giant blockbuster movies, and they actually found that, uh, you know, through different ways of um categorizing and kind of grading the different films in terms of authentic inclusive representation, they found that the bottom line really takes a blow when there isn't authentic inclusive representation. So just from like a business standpoint, it's so important to have diversity that is authentic. And you know, I bring this up because so much of art and getting art made kind of comes back down to business, unfortunately.

[36:05] AC Dumlao: Yes.

[36:05] Sheena Brevig: And so this was so exciting for the center and for myself personally, as you know, a quote diverse artist who wants to continue making content like that and supporting content like that. Because there you go, it's like that it's in the numbers. They were leaving like thirty-two million on the table by not having authentic inclusive representation.

[36:27] Ruthie Fierberg: Yeah, that's what's wild to me is that not only is it good art, it is also good business, and yet the case is still so difficult to make. I mean, even when you look at something like Crazy Rich Asians, um, the budget for that was like I want to say 30 million, and they ended up grossing 170 million because people really felt like this was for Asians, by Asians. They, you know, everyone on that team did their research kind of thing.

[36:57] Sheena Brevig: Yeah, and Ruthie, on that point, actually, I'll make the distinction that there really is a difference between Asian and Asian American, right? So Asian American stories are also very different from Asian stories. And so the really interesting thing with Crazy Rich Asians is that that did really well domestically, but internationally, kind of comparatively, it didn't do very well. Um, read the books, the books are like, I think, not to get totally tangential, but are this gateway to a world that I will say I personally had absolutely no clue of. And the um, the wealth itself is unfathomable. And I did see the movie and go like, that was a good American rom-com. But like it was completely Americanized because the character of like Nick is all of a sudden like the reason they don't want him marrying an American girl is because he has to come home and run the Chinese family business, which is so not the thing in the books because they're so wealthy, no one needs to run anything. Like it's just and of course, Americans will understand the idea of business, the idea of like taking over the family business.

[38:13] Ruthie Fierberg: But I'm cracking because you're such they're so passionate about the books, Ruthie.

[38:18] Sheena Brevig: Oh my god, the books are so good, you guys. They're so good. They're so good.

[38:23] Ruthie Fierberg: But I digress, but I digress. Um, I mean, I'm also, I mean, so back to the context of Interstate, though, I mean, your casting note specifically is so direct about who gets to play these parts as well. So you're talking about representation in characters, but then you're also talking about representation in terms of talent, um, both on the, you know, ethnicity and nationality of these characters and on the gender spectrum and sexuality spectrum. Talk to me about writing that casting note so that when this ends up in the world, you know that your work is going to be done the way you intended.

[39:10] Kit Yan: Yeah, great, great question. I I'm smiling because like I wonder, Melissa, like the casting note. I wonder for us if it's like a shield, like to a shield?

[39:23] Melissa Li: Yeah, a shield, because part of the reason why we have this is not only Interstate, all our scripts have extensive, extensive casting notes because a lot of times we're writing from the communities that we're a part of, and we want to make sure that in the casting of it we are casting people who are going to be from those identities and our communities as well, and also inform the characters. So, uh, if we're casting from folks who are part of our community, we're having incredible dramaturgical conversations and character conversations about story, um, which is really important, and um, theater is a collaborative art form, so it's important to have a lot of healthy discussion as we make the piece. And I joke that it's like maybe a shield because like I do hope it turns some people off if they look at the script and go, we can't do that because we probably don't want to work with them.

[40:23] Kit Yan: Well, it's like a litmus test, Kit. It's like if you accept that this is how the musical is gonna be, hopefully you align with the values of not being a terrible bigot.

[40:41] Melissa Li: I hope.

[40:41] Kit Yan: Very true. Yeah, I also want to add that, you know, this is something that we really aim for just because we know how important it is for, you know, underrepresented groups, you know, that for our community to come and like see a show and feel like they can see themselves on stage and not like someone else is like pretending to be them, you know, and to really experience that is like so important. At the same time, I do want to acknowledge that like we're still learning too. Like just because like, you know, we have this extensive casting note, but we're not the end all be all. We'll start we're still learning about what's appropriate, not appropriate, you know. We we never want to step into a room where we're like, okay, well, if Kit and Melissa says it's okay to like cast this person, then I guess it's okay because like kids trans.

Like we don't, we you know, we don't also don't make those decisions, and these conversations are still evolving and are still happening in the trans and queer community. Um, so so we're also open to like growing too, you know. Like there's there's some things that are just tricky, you know, in terms of like yeah, even in our casting note, we're like, oh, you know, like East Asian, like, you know, Dash is Dash is East Asian, and here's like what falls under the umbrella of like East Asian, right?

[41:51] Melissa Li: So, but there's still conversation around that. It's like, oh, okay, like, well, if this person's Chinese, then can like a Japanese person play this person? And so there's a lot of questions that like we're still engaging around and are eager to learn.

[42:06] Kit Yan: Absolutely. We try to encourage people who are non-quote unquote like non-professional actors to audition for the show too, because so many times our communities do not have access to the education, the networking, the platforms, even the internet in order to be seen and be heard. And so um, you know, there we have found like maybe there's like someone out there who's like an incredible singer who's who's uh trans, who maybe has never had an opportunity to act. We those are the folks we wholeheartedly invite to to audition as well.

[42:42] Melissa Li: What is a good measure? How can we measure? How can we detect what are we feeling? What makes something a character or a story authentic to you? Like what says to you this feels authentically Asian American? What says to you this is authentically queer? I pose this question to the room. Maybe Sheena, you want to start.

[43:07] Sheena Brevig: Yeah, I I mean, I think you know, I love what everyone has just said, and Melissa, it's so true. We're all learning or kit to, you know, we're all learning, we're all growing. The language and the landscape is constantly evolving. Um, you know, none of us are experts, even those of us who are like, you know, those of us who have PhDs and blah blah blah, you know, it's like we're all still learning. Um I think that in that regard, when you have you know, the the queer people or the Asian people behind, you know, in my case behind the camera, but you know, writing the stories, producing the stories. I think if it is authentic to the creators, right? Then who is anyone else to say that that isn't an authentic story?

[43:51] Sheena Brevig: From from kind of like the you know, like the Bechtel test perspective, when it we're looking at on-screen representation, um, there is uh an LGBTQ version called the Vito Ross Russo test. Um, does the film contain a character that is identifiably lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and/or queer? You know, the character must not solely be defined by their sexual identity. Um, and so again, a reason why it's important to talk about stories that have these multi-dimensional characters, and they have to be tied to the plot in a way that removing them would like significantly affect the story and change it, right?

[44:38] Sheena Brevig: So, like, in terms of like how we've measured it in in kind of on-screen media, those are some guidelines, um, but those are just you know, scratching the surface because you're right, Ruthie. Like, there's I mean, you know, there's so much that can go into what an authentic story is. Um, and and one last note, in kind of going back to your question earlier of the impact of authentic representation, you know, mental health, right? I I mental health is a big thing that I'm passionate about with all the work that I do, and especially LGBTQ plus communities and Asian communities, Asian American communities, um, you know, suffer high, really high rates, if not highest rates, in terms of dealing with mental health issues.

[45:27] Sheena Brevig: And we know that seeing media representation can positively impact that because then we feel less alone, right? You see that in Henry's storyline in inner state, and so that's also why I love I love that. You you are kind of exemplifying it in your story.

[45:45] Sheena Brevig: Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I found on the center's website that I felt really compelling about the impact of storytelling on unconscious bias was this is quoted from the website. Many believed that having the first black president would cause a shift in unconscious race bias throughout the United States. However, during the eight years that Barack Obama was president, researchers found no shift. During that same time period, they did find a 13% reduction in unconscious LGBTQ bias.

[46:20] Sheena Brevig: The researchers credit positive representations of LGBTQ characters on screens, such as shows like Glee with impacting these perceptions. And while we could do a whole other podcast on the sadness of the fact that unconscious race bias did not really change during that time, I will celebrate the idea of like, you know, I say it all the time, and it's the reason this podcast exists that like shows like Glee, shows like Will and Grace, like you have to move the emotional mind, the emotional dial of the country, I think before you move the politics and the law of it.

[47:03] Sheena Brevig: You have to incite the hearts of people before you can get their behaviors to follow. And again, seeing these characters in interstate as full and as human and as relatable, and as having, you know, problems with men in bars, like you know, like any woman has had, or um, you know, those kinds of issues um really present a story that we need. Because I think the other thing is that, you know, as AC was talking about cultural competency and and defining terms, I think part of the reason we need that is because we have so few stories.

[47:49] Sheena Brevig: We know so we see so little, um, and we have such little exposure. I mean, I found a statistic that less than 1% of lead television characters are LGBTQ plus, and it's about 5% in film. Um, and then when it comes to Asian and Pacific Islander representation, not specifically Asian American, but um AAPI or API rather, that only 3.4% of the top grossing films from 2007 to 2019 feature one API protagonist.

[48:30] Sheena Brevig: And of those, Dwayne the Rock Johnson accounts for 31%. Wow, thank you, Dwayne the Rock Johnson. I'm just like, oh my god, that stuff is crazy.

[48:47] Sheena Brevig: So it's very clear to me that like unconsciously we are processing the humanity of people through these stories. Um, and so I'm wondering, I guess Sheena, I'll throw it back to you. Hypothetically, like if filmmakers or a television studio comes to you and says, We're writing a show with, you know, I I don't know, let's take the example of Interstate.

[49:16] Sheena Brevig: We're gonna make interstate an adaptation, guys. We're making a movie version of Interstate. We have a, you know, a lesbian woman of Asian descent and a trans man of Asian descent as our lead characters. Um what does the center, what would the center's approach be to making sure that every piece of that production remains authentic?

[49:38] Sheena Brevig: That's a great question in that we kind of have different uh specific strategies that the center has been doing so far. Like we've been hired on to do script consulting, for example, um, or kind of specific things. I think we have yet to take on a whole production, but that sounds really exciting.

[49:59] Sheena Brevig: Um, but another area putting it into the universe. I love that. Congrats to this hypothetical win for Kit and Melissa and Yes. Oh, I I mean, I am personally on board, so we'll make it happen.

[50:13] Sheena Brevig: But um, you know, as far as the center, we've been actually developing these DEI workshops that are for storytellers in order to teach the creators how to be informed. So, because we really, you know, we stand in the middle of academia and the entertainment industry or media, and our job is kind of to translate all the amazing research that is out there and say, hey, content creators, like this is this is the research that's out there.

[50:44] Sheena Brevig: Here's a really easy way to understand it, and here's how you can apply it. So I imagine that it could both be helpful to have people on your team inside the community who have different individual perspectives as well as outside and have a mix of that.

[51:02] Kit Yan: How does how does that play out in again creating something authentic, but that is also comprehensive?

[51:12] Melissa Li: Yeah. You know, I'm so glad you're bringing this up because like it's it's not always about even our roles, it's not always about what goes on on stage, right? Like we're writing the story that goes on on stage, and it's really important to cast authentically there.

[51:27] Melissa Li: Um but like everyone was saying, it's also really important to have a room full of people that are from your community, that like this show is for our community and it's also made by our community, right? So when we did uh so for example, when we did Nymph in 2018, um, every single person in our creative team in our crew, um, and yeah, like like backstage everything was was uh a queer person, uh uh a person of color, a trans people, there was only like one cis white person with cis white man uh in on the team.

[52:01] Melissa Li: In like a 40-person team. In like a 40 person team. And that actually like it's it's about what's on stage, but it's also about the experience of participating in theater and creating theater, right? And what does that make us feel as creatives, you know, working with each other?

[52:17] Melissa Li: Folks were have written to us and said that it was like the most comfortable room they've ever sat on, they've ever stage managed in, and they've ever, you know, uh done costumes with, you know, and it was just such a familiar room. And for us, building community is is not just about stories, it's also literally the room.

[52:30] Kit Yan: That's absolutely in the hiring. And we're talking today a lot about like authenticity too. Uh, I think our characters in any of our shows, you'll see, are very flawed. They come to the table like the way that we come to the table with many issues, many successes, and many failures under our belts, and just like uh when we reflect our communities that are on stage, offstage, we are able to also lovingly hold each other accountable.

[53:07] AC Dumlao: Yeah. AC, I want to ask you from the perspective of TLDEF, when it comes to storytelling, what do you want people to see more of? Whether that's in terms of trans rights or just stories in general and and how interstate contributes to that.

[53:26] AC Dumlao: Sure. Uh we just need more of them. Um I promise this will come back around. But going back to this crazy rich Asians um example, right? So prior to Crazy Rich Asians, the last primarily all Asian casts was was Joy La Club, right? So that was many, many, many years for us to come around again.

[53:51] AC Dumlao: And so much pressure was put on crazy rich Asians to succeed. Um, and it was like if it doesn't succeed, like we'll never have another Asian American movie or whatever. And that is that is the double-edged sword when you're from a historically excluded community, right?

[54:10] AC Dumlao: Um, is that there are so many fewer uh uh productions or movies or whatever the the medium is that exists. So by default, the the dominant audience, which is white cishet, um are gonna kind of make you the example of your communities.

[54:29] AC Dumlao: And so for every crazy rich Asians, there's dozens and dozens of mediocre rom-coms um with white leads that exists. And we should get to have just as many um varying types of of movies or plays or musicals.

[54:47] AC Dumlao: Um, not that I want mediocre art. Without feeling that like it's this or nothing ever again.

[54:54] Kit Yan: Exactly. Talking about the the thesis of this episode of should this episode exist because it's a love story, it's more interstates should exist that are stories that just include queer Asian trans people, right?

[55:10] AC Dumlao: I think about I like to say, you know, the big time for for us in on this this podcast, May into June, API Heritage Month into Pride Month. Suddenly our inboxes are blowing up with interviews and panels and people wanting to really, you know, talk about our identities and then quietness through the rest of the year when queer trans-Asian people um can contribute to every kind of story.

[55:38] AC Dumlao: So this is a big problem of um trans people only getting tapped to write trans stories. Like trans people can write a sports article, can write like a political article because we are humans in this world, um, but we get boxed into our identities. It is very clear that we do not have enough storytellers from historically excluded communities. So we need to first raise that bar as quickly as possible and populate that to a more equitable level. But I do dream of the day when like you guys can write a story with I don't know, a black character at the center if you want to. Or that a straight person will be able to competently write a queer character as the main character. And so I'm wondering how do we get people outside of the community to that place of creating authentic characters and stories outside of themselves. Or do you agree with me that we should be doing that?

[56:51] Sheena Brevig: I can jump in really quick. I think the first step is to give those of us that are part of the communities those opportunities. And until we can get to a place where we feel like we've reached parity, where it's like, you know, it's where the voices are representative of our society's, you know, the population. It's so hard to imagine going beyond that. But that's just kind of what's totally fair.

[57:56] AC Dumlao: Yeah, and Ruthie, if I could just call in this example of you know the kind of dominant culture person being able to write um a historically excluded identity, like that happens. That is what always has been happening, right? Um cishet people writing stories for uh other groups, you know, uh the one that comes to mind, West Side Story, right? Um The Sharks, right? Um, not only you know written by white men, um, but then also played by a variety of of ethnically ambiguous people in the original movie and production. And so um that that parity piece, that equity piece that uh Sheena brings up is exactly it. It's that until until our communities have as many opportunities as the dominant culture of cishet white rich men, um, then we can talk about all of us being able to write for each other.

[58:55] Ruthie Fierberg: You're absolutely right. To clarify, I had been thinking, how do we get someone from outside a community to write about another community authentically? Because you're right, the dominant culture does write it, but inauthentically. But you're absolutely right. That's a misguided question. Because as you said, until your communities have as many opportunities as the dominant culture, then we can talk about all of us being able to write well for each other, and we're just not there. AC, you said it before. We just need more. We'd we need more interstates, we need more stories. How do we get artistic directors, studio heads, producers? How do we get them to greenlight these projects?

[59:43] Melissa Li: I have two thoughts here. And um, one, I wanna actually shout it back out to AC and Till Death that in that like um to tell like a reverse story about how TLDEF helped Interstate. Um part of it is as a society, um, part one, I actually think we need to start caring about people who are not ourselves. So I know oftentimes we say, like, uh you you can't, you know, we have to move hearts and minds so that because like if you don't know a trans person, you're not gonna care about trans issues. But what if we lived in a world where okay, maybe you didn't, you don't think you've ever met a trans person, but you still cared about trans people, or you just cared to cared about people other than whoever you are and who's around you.

[1:00:30] AC Dumlao: Yes, you're absolutely right. And then in addition to that, like, in order for us, me and Melissa to get to be at this stage in our careers and and as creators, like we're humans too, and we have to have like whole supported lives. And so um, I was saying I wanted to shout it back out to TLDEF because there was a time in my life where I could not figure out how to change my name. I thought that the process was so daunting. I had the um the envelope with my name change papers sitting on my like desk for years, and I wouldn't send them in because I didn't know how to, I was scared, I was scared of the whole process. I knew you needed lawyers, I was scared of the word courts. I I didn't know how to do it.

And it wasn't until somebody else just came and and helped me and like paid for it and and like in when I was in a time when I couldn't imagine paying like the three or four hundred dollars it took to do that um to be able to do that, and then that sort of set me on a path to feeling affirmed in my identities in in that way, and then that set me on a path to being able to go on tour with Melissa and then set me on a path to being about writing the show, and so it really you've got to dial it back to like the whole human being and self.

[1:01:46] Melissa Li: Make me cry, kid.

[1:01:50] AC Dumlao: Oh it really was. It was like a life-changing moment. I think that that's important for us to dial back, uh, for me personally to dial back and really look at, like you said, the humanity regardless of what we know or don't know. Huge.

[1:02:09] Sheena Brevig: Yeah, and when I think about theaters green lighting our projects, I'm thinking like, are these theaters out in the community, being a part of the community, asking like, what do people need? Like at the end of the day, do me and Melissa need a like, you know, do we need a show in a theater? Is that our most basic survival need? Not really. Like, do we need health care, a place to live, food to eat, friends, family? Yes.

[1:02:34] AC Dumlao: If I can chime in with um, just kind of Ruthie, you know, you were you're talking about the the power of storytelling, right? Right? And like, you know, which is what this podcast really is about. It's it's shifting culture through art. And I love this study by Dr. Sheila Murphy. Um, I think it was back in 2012, out of USC, and she did a study where she looked at um a can a narrative, you know, basically, which is more impactful, a narrative story or kind of a talking heads example. Um, and she found that the narrative story was significantly more impactful in creating like actionable change it was actually about women's health this particular study um but and it was about getting women particularly particularly of color to go get pap smears and checkups and the narrative story had significantly more um impact.

[1:03:07] Sheena Brevig: Kit yes you know we do you need to be in a theater you know compared to your basic needs no but we as a society do need theater we need media we need content because it shifts culture you asked me earlier Ruthie like how do I get the people in my training rooms to like listen and be on the same page and I don't think the thing I'm about to say gets them to do that but before I talk about trans issues before I talk about diversity I'm talking about like basic human dignity and respect and I have a slide that says you don't need to understand everything about another person's experience in order to see them as human. And I'm not a huge numbers person but you know the number of cisgender people in the world outnumber trans and non-binary people even if we like bump up the Williams Institute um 1.4 million people in the US up to like two million that's like hundreds of millions of people in the US so they're not gonna they're not gonna meet the 2% of us all um in time for us to you know be able to convince their hearts and minds that that we deserve rights.

[1:04:45] AC Dumlao: Yes, I agree. It's not our job to educate the cishet white, you know m man. Um we kind of do need to, in the sense of to change if we can really, if we really want to change the way our society is, unfortunately, that seems to be the main group we need to convince. And, you know, um in addition, CSS as a center, while we work mostly with on screen, we have done theater reports. And, you know, I mentioned really briefly these diversity and equity and inclusion workshops that we're now doing with creative teams. You know, I would love to see us do that in the theater space. And you know, kind of it does come back to business a lot of the time, but we get to make that case, right? We get to not just make the business case, but then also bring in the research with you know how we learn about race and identity.

[1:05:43] Sheena Brevig: Sheena, if you could give me the 30-second version of like how we get these stories greenlit. Like what do we need to say to the higher ups?

[1:05:53] Sheena Brevig: We've been really excited about this work, and it's we're only in our second year of doing it, but you know, we're working with these big, you know, giant studios, children's media studios, and we're seeing shifts because we are because you know, in a sense, with I think everything that happened last year around um, you know, George Floyd and everything, people are finally like willing to listen. Um part of it for us that was really interesting was bringing together all different types of collaborators within the creative process and getting to hear from everyone as well as informing them, you know, from the research perspective of things, and really showing that it matters.

[1:06:43] Ruthie Fierberg: Absolutely. Melissa, did you want to add anything? Because otherwise I'm going to end with a Melissa Li quote.

[1:06:49] Melissa Li: Oh my god.

[1:06:51] Ruthie Fierberg: Um, no, I think the quote will just speak for itself.

[1:06:54] Melissa Li: Okay.

[1:06:55] Ruthie Fierberg: Wow.

[1:06:55] Melissa Li: I don't actually know what it is.

[1:06:57] Ruthie Fierberg: Just yes.

[1:06:59] Melissa Li: It will speak for itself, though.

[1:07:01] Ruthie Fierberg: Okay. This is what you told me when when we when we were first talking about Interstate, and I think that it's just so exactly right. You said the perspective is different, so the stories can be universal.

[1:07:16] Melissa Li: Oh, I really said that.

[1:07:18] Ruthie Fierberg: Wow. Really said that.

[1:07:21] Melissa Li: And I think that's exactly it. The stories are universal. The perspectives and the differences and the authenticity in those perspectives are what make them valuable and exciting and entertaining and worthwhile.

[1:07:39] Ruthie Fierberg: So thank you, Kit and Melissa. You are. I mean, girl, you're a lyricist and a book writer, I should hope so. Um just playing. But yes, thank you for having us. Thank you so much, Kit and Melissa, for for writing this and for your time. And thank you to Sheena and AC. And we will put show notes of how you can check out more of their work and get in touch with the center. Um, if you want to go for these D E and I workshops or any of the amazing resources there, and the same thing for AC and TLDEF. Um, we want to connect everyone. So thank you guys so much. This was awesome.

[1:07:51] AC Dumlao: Thank you so much.

[1:08:18] Sheena Brevig: Thank you for this great conversation.

[1:08:25] Ruthie Fierberg: Why We Theater is a product of the Broadway Podcast Network. It's edited and mixed by Derek Gunther. If you like the show, subscribe at bpn.fm slash WWT or Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget to leave a review and tell your friends. Our theme music is by Benjamin Velez. Why We Theater is recorded in part on the traditional lands of the Wapinger and Lenape peoples. I acknowledge this land was unjustly taken from them and pay my respect to elders both past and present. Special thanks to Dory Berenstein, Alan Seales, Lee Silverman, Patrick Taylor, Tony Montaneri, Wesley Birdsall, Elena Mayer, and Suzanne Chipkin. For more resources for change, info about our guests, and more, visit us at WhyWeTheater.com.