This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:20] Tonya Pinkins: Hi, I'm Tonya Pinkins, and I'm very excited to talk with my guest today who I discovered on Instagram.

[0:29] Tonya Pinkins: I gotta tell you that Instagram and TikTok are like my schools lately.

[0:34] Tonya Pinkins: The young people are giving you education about everything.

[0:39] Tonya Pinkins: Uh vocabulary, grammar, indigenous history, black history, African history.

[0:47] Tonya Pinkins: I am scrolling every morning for an hour or two to learn about the world.

[0:52] Tonya Pinkins: Um so my guest today, his name is Tony Nabors, and he is from Racial Equity Insights.

[1:05] Tonya Pinkins: And I was really fascinated by the strategic ways that Tony talks about um things that are, you know, getting kind of hot here in the world.

[1:16] Tonya Pinkins: And I I sent you um him over uh an article today by Chris Hedges, who is a wonderful journalist talking about um woke politics, and hopefully we'll have a chance to talk about that too.

[1:30] Tonya Pinkins: You're listening to You Can't SAY THAT and Welcome Tony, how are you this morning?

[1:35] Tony Nabors: I'm doing great, Tonya.

[1:37] Tony Nabors: I I highly appreciate being here.

[1:39] Tony Nabors: I was able to take a very quick read of that article, and I I know that whatever we get into is gonna be a very good conversation.

[1:46] Tonya Pinkins: Now you are in Tanzania right now, is that right?

[1:49] Tony Nabors: Yes, that is correct.

[1:50] Tonya Pinkins: What brought you to Tanzania?

[1:52] Tony Nabors: Yeah, so my my family and I, my wife and I, we had been talking about at least visiting the motherland for a good while.

[1:59] Tony Nabors: Um, and we had some friends that lived, we're originally from the Seattle area in Washington State.

[2:04] Tony Nabors: Uh, we had some friends that are from Tanzania that lived in Seattle years and years and years ago.

[2:09] Tony Nabors: So we did a little research, decided to visit Tanzania last year, uh, really enjoyed it and said, hey, let's go on an adventure.

[2:16] Tony Nabors: Let's see what a longer term stay there could feel like.

[2:20] Tony Nabors: Uh, let's get that experience of being outside of the US, having our four black sons, be able to be in a place where everybody looks like them.

[2:28] Tony Nabors: Um, just be able to get that sense of what it's like to be among the people and be among, you know, just uh living life without having to experience the challenges that come with being black in the States and just being able to have that freedom experience.

[2:42] Tonya Pinkins: How old are your kids?

[2:43] Tony Nabors: They are 11, 8, uh about to be six this weekend, and three and a half.

[2:50] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, so how's it been?

[2:52] Tony Nabors: That's been it has been good, it has been challenging, it has been uh game changing.

[2:58] Tony Nabors: It's a lot of different ways.

[3:00] Tony Nabors: Uh it's definitely challenging just getting used to the new culture.

[3:03] Tony Nabors: Uh Swahili is the primary language here, and we're still trying to learn it.

[3:07] Tony Nabors: You know, we've learned you know, learn a little bit along the way, but still a lot to learn on that front.

[3:11] Tony Nabors: Um for me, it's getting used to the weather a little bit because it's it's hot all the time, but it's beautiful and sunny and beach.

[3:18] Tony Nabors: Um, like today, we just for the heck of it decided, hey, let's take a little family walk to the beach, which you live in Washington State near Seattle.

[3:26] Tony Nabors: That's never uh a guaranteed experience at all, let alone the Indian Ocean.

[3:32] Tony Nabors: And so, yeah, we're starting to settle in, we're having a good time, and uh definitely looking forward to continuing to experience life here.

[3:39] Tony Nabors: So uh I just came back from traveling um on the continent in a couple of countries in West and Central Africa.

[3:47] Tony Nabors: Um, I was in Ghana, Accra uh Cape Coast.

[3:52] Tony Nabors: I was in Benin, all over Benin, north to south.

[3:57] Tony Nabors: I was in Gabon, where my uh African ancestry maternal line was traced, and I was in Sao Tome.

[4:04] Tony Nabors: And uh I had been to Sudan, thank you.

[4:07] Tony Nabors: I was in Sudan and Egypt earlier in the year.

[4:09] Tony Nabors: I'd been to Egypt before, I've been to Morocco, and this trip for me was life-changing.

[4:17] Tony Nabors: And I I'm gonna share why, and then I'd love your response to this from your perspective.

[4:22] Tony Nabors: Um, I was going because I'm doing a rewrite of a script that's about um some uh kidnapped Africans and their life here, and so I wanted to really get a sense of what the culture was because just because I'm black doesn't mean I know anything about Africa, and so I wanted to go and absorb some of the culture that exists now because I know that some of it goes back a long way.

[4:48] Tony Nabors: And I think the biggest uh light bulb for me was that I began to see, as Jane Elliott says, that anyone who's gone through the American education system is a white supremacist because the education system in America teaches you that white is right and white is best.

[5:08] Tony Nabors: And what I began to see is my eyes were looking at these things that were very natural, normal, healthy in West and Central Africa, that there I was coming with a preconceived judgment because of my education in the West.

[5:27] Tony Nabors: And the biggest example of that for me is that um the soil in Central and West Africa is this rich, rich red.

[5:37] Tony Nabors: And that soil is the sidewalks and it's the inside of shops and everybody's walking around in it either in flip-flops or they're in uh barefoot sometimes and the sky is filled with it and it makes the the sunsets incredibly intense.

[5:55] Tony Nabors: And I thought, oh, these people are in the soil and they are they're grounded why I've been educated that that's dirty, that there's something wrong with it, that you have to cover that up with concrete.

[6:08] Tony Nabors: But they are connected to their grounded.

[6:11] Tonya Pinkins: Have you had any um sort of revelations like that?

[6:14] Tony Nabors: Yeah, yeah.

[6:15] Tony Nabors: So it's it's so interesting.

[6:17] Tony Nabors: Um when I kind of think about just the the kind of interplay between people the people that we we get to interact with and meet and build relationship with now uh but then also being aware of the history of colonialism um and capitalism and industrialization, you know, kind of all that sort of stuff the infrastructure type stuff is so interesting.

[6:40] Tony Nabors: I feel like it's given me such a better perspective of the US because I think that I could realize a lot of ways that there's so much more conveniences in the US.

[6:40] Tony Nabors: There's so much more physical infrastructure but I kind of this is like low key my sort of uh uh a little bit of sort of a conspiracy theory, thought pattern.

[7:01] Tony Nabors: Um, that's probably a little bit more than that.

[7:03] Tony Nabors: But I feel like a lot of the conveniences of the US are kind of created to keep us sleep or to keep us tired or to keep us disconnected.

[7:14] Tony Nabors: Um, and food.

[7:16] Tony Nabors: So food's a really good example.

[7:17] Tony Nabors: Um, where in the States, if you want to eat quality, fresh, organic food, that costs so much money compared to you know, the packaged processed stuff that's really terrible for your body, which is really cheap.

[7:30] Tony Nabors: Um, and here in Tanzania, it's the exact opposite.

[7:33] Tony Nabors: Like you can go, you can almost open your door from any home and toss a rock, and you'll hit a fresh, a fresh vegetable or fresh fruit market.

[7:42] Tony Nabors: Um, and the prices are great.

[7:44] Tony Nabors: Like the prices are are affordable for local people with the local economy.

[7:49] Tony Nabors: Uh, whereas if you want to go and get sort of the pre-packaged fast food type stuff, that's like kind of like a special delicacy treat that's really expensive here.

[8:00] Tony Nabors: Um, and I just love the alignment with just again, just the earth, the alignment with the earth, the alignment with animals, uh, the sort of just kind of natural spaces.

[8:10] Tony Nabors: This is definitely the same thing over here where there's a lot more uh uh dirt roads, a lot more.

[8:15] Tony Nabors: I mean, they have paved roads as well too, but certainly a lot more dirt, a lot more just sort of animals that you'll just see around.

[8:21] Tony Nabors: Um, and if you want to go to a market and if I want to order, you know, beef or chicken or something like that, uh, almost every single time that animal was alive that morning, or maybe just last night.

[8:33] Tony Nabors: Uh, and it's so fresh.

[8:35] Tony Nabors: Um, and I just I love I love that connection, you know, and I love that ability to get fresh vegetables and fresh food and you know, all that kind of different thing.

[8:44] Tony Nabors: Uh, where it's just easier, it's easier and more affordable, and you're uh it's much easier to connect with the actual local people relationally when you are going to the local market, uh, as opposed to, you know, going to the box grocery store and you know, buying your boxed pre-made stuff, uh, which we shouldn't be in anyway.

[9:01] Tony Nabors: We should be eating that anyway.

[9:02] Tony Nabors: So I really like that that is less accessible here.

[9:05] Tony Nabors: Um certainly it's a lot better for the health, a lot better for the connection.

[9:09] Tony Nabors: Um I I'm definitely a big fan of the importance of grounding and being in nature.

[9:15] Tony Nabors: Um, you'll see a lot of stuff on my social media is me out in nature talking about stuff.

[9:19] Tony Nabors: Um so yeah, I I definitely dig it and I really appreciate how easy it is to be able to get outdoors over here.

[9:25] Tonya Pinkins: I food is uh that would have been my next issue.

[9:28] Tonya Pinkins: I have a very sensitive stomach and the whole digestive tract, and just changing even sometimes from a state, everything will get messed up for me.

[9:38] Tonya Pinkins: So I travel with my my lomatil, my you know, uh Pepto-Bismol because I'm expecting that the change in uh everything is gonna affect me.

[9:48] Tonya Pinkins: I did not have any issues in Africa.

[9:52] Tonya Pinkins: Not once did I need any medication.

[9:55] Tonya Pinkins: Um, learning that there that the cheapest food to eat there is fresh fish, because they can just go to the sea and catch it.

[10:03] Tonya Pinkins: And you go to a restaurant and you're sitting for an hour because they gotta catch it and scale it and clean it.

[10:09] Tonya Pinkins: We would we would call restaurants in advance to um let them know when we were coming so they could prepare for us.

[10:16] Tonya Pinkins: And so I was eating fresh food, fresh fish and vegetables every day.

[10:21] Tonya Pinkins: You don't have a lot of chicken because it's too expensive to feed the chicken.

[10:26] Tonya Pinkins: Um, I don't eat pork, but pigs were running around all the time.

[10:29] Tonya Pinkins: And you think about people running around with their pigs and their chickens and their goats, that means the biome is being shared, less risk of people getting diseases from animal to people because they're sharing a biome because they're living together.

[10:42] Tonya Pinkins: Um, yeah, it was easier to be to eat healthily there.

[10:46] Tonya Pinkins: And here I eat a lot of candy chips uh because I have cravings for them.

[10:52] Tonya Pinkins: And I didn't have any of that for five weeks, didn't crave it.

[10:57] Tonya Pinkins: Uh, pretty much as soon as I got back here and ate one meal, the cravings came up again.

[11:03] Tony Nabors: Definitely can resonate with that.

[11:05] Tony Nabors: Um, I think you it sounds like you are a lot better than me in Africa.

[11:08] Tony Nabors: I definitely have not been able to fully shake the sugar cravings.

[11:12] Tony Nabors: So I'm still you know, I have kind of that sweet tune.

[11:15] Tony Nabors: Um or I think I've realized that if I'm really busy or stressed out or whatever the case is, I really like crunchy stuff like chips, like that's just kind of my jam.

[11:24] Tony Nabors: Um, but even if I want to get the bread food trips, what what about the bread food fruit chips or the paticum the um the banana plantain chips?

[11:32] Tony Nabors: Have you tried those that the ladies make and sell on the side of the road?

[11:35] Tonya Pinkins: That's exactly what I was gonna say.

[11:36] Tonya Pinkins: So the kind of the two that are my jam uh is the the plantain chips.

[11:40] Tonya Pinkins: My my wife is a bigger fan of the plantain chips, but they do the cassava chips here.

[11:44] Tonya Pinkins: Um, I love those.

[11:47] Tonya Pinkins: So good.

[11:48] Tonya Pinkins: And literally, yeah, you buy it from somebody on the side of the road, they somehow have got the they got the little packaging and whatever, and they are really good, and much, much better than you know, lays or cheetos or whatever.

[11:59] Tony Nabors: Absolutely, absolutely.

[12:01] Tonya Pinkins: Um, you know, you've been working 20 years with anti-racism training and consulting and and strategy development and public speaking and team leadership and program management.

[12:14] Tonya Pinkins: Um, your bio says that you're the first person to hold a position of direct diversity, equity, and inclusion for a public housing authority in US history.

[12:23] Tonya Pinkins: So those words, uh diversity, equity, inclusion, they have become uh slurs now in uh for a certain population of the US.

[12:34] Tonya Pinkins: But um what is your your your feeling about that and and what does it really mean?

[12:39] Tonya Pinkins: Um that article from Chris Hedges that I shared with you really talked about the performativeness of so much in our society right now.

[12:48] Tonya Pinkins: And I want to hear your thoughts about what you do versus the attacks on what you do for sure.

[12:54] Tony Nabors: For sure. So, uh, it's so interesting. So with me, uh, and you probably pick this up from hearing me speak on videos and that kind of thing, but I am really particular with words and with language. I love putting together the correct words or the right words, the best words to convey whatever it is I'm trying to convey. Um, so there's this kind of perpetual thing that happens, um, where oftentimes black people will create or, you know, sort of start particular language that has to do with the pursuit of equity and liberation. Uh, and then it gets co-opted by the masses, uh, most often the white masses, and, uh, is then misused, um, or is actually then used actually or weaponized against our freedom movements.

Uh, and then we end up sort of shying away from the language that we created because then suddenly it goes mainstream and then it loses the meaning that we originally intended for it. Um, like how the word "woke" is now this, uh, political sort of boogeyman for the right, uh, having to do, you know, with anything that we're trying to do so the world is more fair and more just. But then suddenly now it's this woke boogeyman where they're trying to attack, you know, white people, you know, whatever that sort of, you know, all that sort of, uh, uh conversation is around. Um, and that frustrates me. You know, it really frustrates me how our language is co-opted like that and is misused and is flipped around and all that kind of thing.

And then we, you know, we have to kind of get creative again. Um, but we know we have a very, we're very creative people, and so we do that and we figure it out and keep it moving. Uh, but that's something that definitely is annoying and frustrating. Um, I just think with the same thing with the DEI. I will confess, I don't know who sort of started that particular phrase, diversity, equity, and inclusion. But for me, I think that, uh, effectiveness is really, really important. When I was at the housing authority, uh, one of the first things that I did, uh, after maybe the first month or so of just getting to know the team and then getting to know me was I just did a few educational videos explaining what those words in my title mean.

What does diversity mean? And why should we be excited about diversity? What does equity mean? And why does that word use instead of equality? Those are two different concepts. What does inclusion mean? And why is that so critical to tie all this stuff together?

[15:26] Tony Nabors: And so, uh, what I gathered from my very quick read. Yeah, yeah. You mean each of each other? I'll talk about those. For sure. So diversity is, uh, really having to do with a lot of different cross sections and slices of humanity being represented in an organization or a space or whatever the case is. And so, uh, ideally that is happening, uh, racially, with gender representation, with sexuality, uh, with, you know, religious expression, with ability, with ages. And you know, the list kind of goes on and on and on and on. Um, and a lot of organizations they kind of conceptualize as, you know, diversity is really good for PR. You know, diversity is, you know, we need to be careful so we don't get sued for saying something we shouldn't say.

Um, which, you know, though I guess those things are both true. Uh, but there's a lot of study that shows that organizations function better when they are diverse and inclusively led. Uh, they, the customers trust them more. There's, uh, longer retention, uh, there's better customer and, uh, staff happiness. Uh, they come up with more innovative solutions and they do so more quickly. There's been a, you know, a lot of study around the benefits of that. Um, so you know, hopefully, at least from an organizational standpoint or any sort of problem-solving standpoint, people would desire for that because diverse groups are more likely to, uh, challenge assumptions instead of just sort of everybody flowing in the same thought pattern that might not be the best or the most effective thought pattern.

[16:50] Tony Nabors: And so, uh, it's important to recognize that that's what diversity is. Um, however, diversity is nothing if it is not inclusive and equitable. Um, if it's just diversity, we've just got, you know, I've got my black person, I've got my, you know, my queer person, I've got, you know, whatever, which I've actually heard organizations communicate in that way. Uh, that is just tokenization. You know, that that's literally just sort of window dressing so your group looks good, um, but those people have no say or no impact on the actual organization. And so when we talk about, uh, inclusion, that is what does it look like for this diversity of people to actually have impacts and be at the decision-making table and be involved in leadership and actually have power and control over the direction of the organization.

And that was something that was such a game changer about my time at the housing authority. Uh, is because literally just the executive director was over me. Um, and this man was, uh, South African. Um, I'm sure you're familiar with some of the other, like the South African kind of racial categories. So he'd be considered colored in South Africa. Um, he is at the age where he has a lived experience of apartheid Africa and a very strong passion for racial equity and racial justice in swimming books. Um, and then I'm, you know, director level with the entire senior leadership team, and then we've got all the staff that kind of go, you know, go below us. Um, so I'm able to speak authoritatively, and I'm able to mentor and guide and even correct directors and their staff in their departments.

Um, and then we eventually get to a space where we're holding accountability and, you know, yada yada yada, uh, which was really exciting because that's unique and I think unusual for DEI staff and organizations.

[18:30] Tonya Pinkins: What are you gonna say that, Tonya?

[18:32] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I what I wanted to say is that, um, you know, you said your company's gonna be better if you have these diverse perspectives and point of view and lived experience. And I often think that settler colonial capitalism isn't looking for better. Um, I read something and I don't know that it's accurate because I don't trust anything I read on the internet, but it said that when Rockefeller was giving, um, money to start the original sort of public education program, he said, I don't want a nation of thinkers, I want a nation of workers. And so I feel like the slur to DEI is like, wait a minute, wait a minute. No, no, no. We like people say this the system's not broken, it's fixed. We like the way it works. It works so that the contracts go to us, the wealth goes to us. It's not broken. We're not trying to fix it. We're not trying to, uh, change this or make it better. We like it how it is.

[19:34] Tony Nabors: That's absolute, that's absolute facts. I, um, I remember, uh, I learned recently, uh, exactly along those lines. I am blanking on the guy's name. But like the historical figure who's known as like the, you know, the father of the American education system, whose name is escaping me right now, um, but that he apparently got his model for the US education system from, I don't know if it was Germany or some European country. Is it Russia? Uh, Prussia, thank you. Prussia. Thank you. Prussia, I got you, I got you. Um, but basically that the whole purpose, the whole purpose was seeing how effective that education system was to, uh, essentially raising a docile populace. Uh, you know, that they, they know how to take commands, they know how to, you know, receive information and then put out an expected output.

Um, and absolutely not intended to cause you to challenge systems or to think more deeply or to question things in society. Um, and then, you know, a lot of people will go through that education system, and then basically they're kind of set in that thought pattern for life. Um, and you know, just y'all thought you so, uh, so eloquently talked about, uh, just how the education system is absolutely rooted in white supremacy. And so if that white supremacy is washed over us along with a game plan where we're not asking questions, we're not pushing back, we're not trying to, you know, challenge those sorts of different things. That is a recipe for, you know, not even having to sort of oppress the people when they're adults because that work was already done when they were children.

[21:11] Tony Nabors: So yeah, I absolutely agree with that. So that makes me feel like you are really, um, pushing, you know, uh, uh who is it that had to push the world up a hill and was it Sisyphus or something? Like you were, was it Atlas? Atlas, okay. Um, that the, um, you know, we've all been washed over in this idea that whiteness is the best. And that's only a little over 200 years old. It didn't exist in the 17th century really as much as it does today, but it became codified in books and in science and in medicine. Um, if you've got people who've been taught from the very beginning, they've been fed it from the breast, white is best. And even if they don't have anything, even if they're at the bottom of whiteness, white being best is giving them an identity and a purpose in the world that makes them above the majority of people on the planet.

Why, how would they ever be interested in, um, recognizing what I believe is that settler colonial capitalism with white supremacy has actually diminished what is available to everyone in the world. And so inside that global system, we all have less because to me, this universe is the only, um, perpetual motion machine. It makes enough for everyone of everything. But settler colonial capitalism says, oh no, no, no, we don't want enough, we want less. We want scarcity because we can sell scarcity. What's your thoughts?

[22:47] Tony Nabors: So, uh, yeah, that's absolutely true. Um, and it's just so interesting to, you know, sort of see whatever these groups of people are that get really pumped up and excited and enthusiastic for billionaires and just sort of, oh gosh, I want to be like that person. And just sort of these, this sort of fiction about, you know, the fact that this idea that billionaires just work really hard and they're so smart and then suddenly they're billionaires with no acknowledgments of just the really evil, awful exploitative stuff that is required to become a billionaire. But those are the things, those are the people that are sort of uplifted. And we saw, we saw this happen a lot with, uh, um, not, not well, I guess just kind of in the last couple of election cycles.

Um, and then just sort of the, the Trump worship where there's this idea that someone who is known for money, which that the reality that is anyway, we could talk, that's a different conversation. But he's known for, you know, for money and, you know, for quote unquote business and for blah, blah, blah. Um, and then there's a sort of, uh, there's this, there's this there's this thought pattern among people that money and capital equals moral value and moral superiority. Um, so there's this sort of, uh, this this in-bed relationship with these things that people really have a hard time separating.

[24:10] Tony Nabors: Um, and there's a quote, I'm gonna paraphrase it because I don't think I have the full quote in my mind, uh, but a Lyndon B. Johnson quote, when he was observing this exact same thing, uh, you know, LBJ is a very polarizing figure for very good reasons. But you know, he says this quote about, um, uh, what is it that if you can, if you can, if you can convince the lowest white man that he's better than a black person, um, you know, basically you've, you've got them, you've got them one. Um, you know, something like hell, he'll empty his pockets for you. Yes, yes, that he will empty his pockets for you. So this is a very effective system. So how do we shift that? I mean, I think that that's what your work is. How do you shift that?

[24:46] Tony Nabors: Absolutely. So one of the, so something that's pretty present throughout my work is a connection to human psychology. Um, whether it be just how I present things or if I'm doing formal presentations, we're gonna, we're gonna talk a little bit about human psychology and just the ways that we absorb ideas and how difficult it is to change minds because of the ways that our human brains lock into ideas and perspectives, especially if they help us to understand how the world works. Um, it's really hard to unravel those sorts of things that happen with people. And so what I do at least is I am extremely strategic with who my audience is and who I invest and who I pour my time into. So for me, I have experienced and seen too often that it is ineffectual and honestly a waste of my time to spend a lot of energy trying to convince people that you know, these global horrible oppressive systems are horrible and oppressive.

[25:51] Tony Nabors: Um for me, basically, I look to create spaces for people who have had at least the beginning sort of surges of epiphany or awareness or question mark um and are looking to dive deeper and are looking to figure out oh gosh, I think there's something awry here. I've seen enough to realize that something is quite not, something's not quite right. Um, but I need I'd love more information to be able to learn what that stuff is, and then to be able to actually get involved with making real effective change and transformation. Um, I think there is certainly uh uh there are a lot of lanes when it comes to anti-racism and anti-oppression work. Uh and I, you know, it's impossible for me to occupy all parts of those lanes.

So I kind of find my lane that I've been effective in, and then I ride on that lane, and then certainly find ways to partner with folks that can really do some of that mind-changing work for people who need their minds changed. Um, but that I think is actually a really powerful place for accomplice work or ally work. Um, and again, we're talking about my focus for the work that I do is racial equity and anti-racism. But again, this we have to be intersectional, we have to be aware of all these different areas of oppression. And I find that when there are people who occupy an identity of privilege on any of these axes, so again, race, gender, sexuality, ability, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, um, they are often very unlikely to believe or listen to marginalized people across that particular identity category.

And so when accomplices and allies decide that, hey, I've seen enough that to realize that this is not cool, this is unjust, this is unfair, this is evil. I'm gonna speak up, I'm gonna elevate, I'm gonna, you know, utilize the fact that certain folks will listen to me differently to be able to elevate these voices. Um, you know, I think that's some of the way that what I do can then lead to some of that other, you know, mind-changing work that is important and valuable, uh, but again, it's not necessarily for me and not where I've decided to sort of sort of locate and put put myself into. And so uh when we realize that all these things really are connected together, uh, but then realize the ways that we all can be complicit in these various systems uh and then are willing to put on that sense of humility of realizing that, hey, I can see this thing really clearly, but I might miss some of these other things.

So let me build community, let me open up and listen deeply, let me grow in my emotional maturity to be okay with sometimes getting my feelings hurt by other folks with the different stories. I think those are some of those kind of small grassroots sort of relationship education, learning things that can grow into something much larger and much mightier, which is another reason too why the primary, my primary clients, so to speak, um, are organizations, our businesses, our nonprofits, our governments as well. Um, because people that are in those spaces tend to be able to have larger scale impacts on communities and industries and so on and so forth. And so uh that's that's where I've decided to sort of locate myself primarily while also finding spaces to still serve individual folks along the way through social media and courses and webinars and that kind of.

[28:58] Tony Nabors: But I also hear you saying that the people who are in power and fixated in having that power, uh, really can only hear from people who are like them in some way. Like they can't even hear from someone who's not similarly situated. And so that gets to this Chris Hedges article, which talks about how the system itself wants to bring in people who look diverse, and so it looks inclusive and it looks equitable, but they're really bringing in representation, it's representational. Like you look like these other people, but you actually aren't representing these other people.

[29:38] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, definitely.

[29:39] Tony Nabors: Except in, you know, the way you look.

[29:41] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, absolutely.

[29:42] Tony Nabors: And that's something that um that's really big scale work to slice through that. Um, because our society, I say especially US society, is such a like a uh team sports mentality, but across everything. Um, where you know, like with team sports, like if I'm from XYZ City, usually that's gonna be my team. I don't care where the other teams are from, I'm booing them, I'm against them, I don't care if they have great players or great people or whatever. You know, I've got my team and I'm sticking to it, I'm cheering them on. Um, and a lot of people, that's how they lock into all sorts of things about society. And uh, you know, the words shoot, I didn't know, or I'm wrong, or you know, those sorts of things are like uh like profanities for a lot of different people that are out there.

Um so at least for those of us that are kind of not in those more sort of elite power positions, um, that's that's I think a big piece of the slice through work is just normalizing the idea that there is stuff that we don't know and things that we can always learn, and then also normalizing the idea that people in power desire to stay in power. Um, and oftentimes they are not super concerned about those of us in the lower rungs beyond what we can do to support their power structures and their money and so on and so forth.

[31:02] Tony Nabors: And so I think that uh maybe this is maybe this is overly optimistic, maybe this is even naive of me to a degree. Um, but I believe that there are possibilities that when enough of the masses start to wake up and start to come online and start to, you know, like unplug from the matrix. Uh, I think that when a lot of people come together and demand certain things, that's where that progress at least starts to continue to move forward, even if it is a long journey, even if it feels like slow and piece by piece by piece. Um, I believe that's how we we get past each obstacle and how we start to climb each rung of that journey to be able to make that transformation.

[31:40] Tonya Pinkins: So, for you know, somebody who happened to tune in today, because you know, Tanya is an actress and I like her. Oh my God, she's talking this diversity equity inclusion thing. Oh I didn't know she was one of those what is your message to them?

[31:54] Tony Nabors: I mean um it's good to define the one of those um because my sense is that the one of those is someone who cares about you know I'm in that woke politics.

[32:02] Tonya Pinkins: I'm the woke politics.

[32:03] Tony Nabors: I'm doing it from DeSantis's point of view.

[32:06] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah DeSantis is oh gosh right right and it's to me it's such a weird it's such a weird perspective to have um because I mean the whole idea of of woke is being aware to ways that people are treated poorly based off of things about them that they have no control over. And so how can we make a world that's more fair for everybody?

[32:27] Tony Nabors: So it's such a weird perspective to be some people don't want a world that's fair for everybody.

[32:33] Tonya Pinkins: No I mean I think that's back to the thing that uh people don't want a world that's fair for everybody because if it's fair for everybody, I'm gonna have less.

[32:42] Tony Nabors: Yeah.

[32:42] Tonya Pinkins: And to me that also uh that that's part of the relationship between all these different systems.

[32:48] Tony Nabors: Um because you know we'll again we can talk about racism, sexism, homophobia, you know, ableism uh but then sort of undergirding all that stuff is capitalism um and imperialism and colonialism, right? Like power and money, money and power, power money, money and power. And so you know it makes sense that a lot of people uh have this mentality sort of the scarcity mentality that gosh if those people get things it're just gonna pull from me.

[33:16] Tonya Pinkins: But as you, you know, as you already, you already said uh a few minutes ago, that I completely agree with is there there is more than enough available on this planet for everybody.

[33:27] Tony Nabors: You know I I uh did you hear, I don't know if you heard about this, but I want to say that I was reading an article a couple months ago where Elon Musk, you know, whatever time frame ago, you know, basically made this pledge that yes, I'm gonna put all this money in and I'm gonna do all this work to you know end uh poverty and you know, all the sorts of different things. And there have already been studies that have shown, you know, that basically people like Elon Musk and those sorts of mega mega billionaires, you know, that they have enough money that they literally could invest to end a lot of this sort of financial disparity work and still be extremely filthy, filthy rich. Um, but they just choose not to.

Just, you know, point blank choose not to. Uh, and so these the sorts of ways that we have this belief that there's not enough for everybody. Um, but again, it's rooted in capitalism and colonialism and imperialism, and people who need to have uh more than or be above people to sort of bolster their own sense of self or their own sense of control or power in the uh in their sphere or in the world or whatever the case is.

[34:30] Tony Nabors: And it makes me think about uh I'm gonna keep, I'm gonna be broad about this because I do not want to give press to a particular individual that for you know problematic for various reasons. But there was like a uh a big article about this uh organization that was doing a lot of this stuff to uh pay people really great wages and you know, make sure everybody was getting a great salary, like those basically a minimum wage of this high number at their their organization. Um and then basically the other higher ups in the organization, the other you know, directors, et cetera, got really upset about that, even though their salaries were not being changed. And sort of like this idea of uh if their director money is too close to you know those those lowly entry-level, you know, beginner level staff, uh, then suddenly they're not satisfied with the same salary that they were already getting.

[35:22] Tonya Pinkins: Um, which is sort of interesting the way that people's brains work around that.

[35:26] Tony Nabors: It's like, well, what they they are not worthy, they're not as worthy as me because they're not this title, etc., etc., etc. Uh, again, when there's enough for everybody, we don't have to live that way. And then when more people can wake up to that, um, ideally and theoretically and hopefully that changes the game and some of the conversations we're having on a broader scale.

[35:44] Tonya Pinkins: Well, it's I don't know which company you're talking about. Maybe you'll write it in the chat for me.

[35:48] Tony Nabors: But um there was also a study that showed like if you have say there are people who are making a dollar, there are people who are making two dollars, and there are people who are making three dollars. And you give the person making two dollars, uh two dollars that they can give to someone not themselves, they can't keep it.

[36:14] Tony Nabors: Um, what they found in the study is that they will give it to the person above them because they don't want to give it to the person below them and allow them to go above them.

[36:22] Tonya Pinkins: And uh yeah, I I don't know the psychology of that.

[36:27] Tony Nabors: It's really, really strange.

[36:28] Tonya Pinkins: I once went to the Keras School of Negotiation, and I I felt that basically what they were teaching people is deception.

[36:36] Tony Nabors: Uh, they disagreed, but as long as I operated from the model of deception, I was the top negotiator in the room over every CEO that was present.

[36:46] Tonya Pinkins: And then for our final negotiation, what he told us was that he wanted it to be a win-win negotiation where we negotiated so that the other person could win.

[36:57] Tony Nabors: Well, I took that to heart.

[36:59] Tonya Pinkins: And everybody else, I guess, that was the click for them to get the deception side.

[37:04] Tony Nabors: And I, you know, negotiated, and we were using real money for that negotiation. I did a win-win negotiation, and uh I was the worst negotiator in the room for that one negotiation.

[37:16] Tonya Pinkins: I did worse than anyone else in the room.

[37:17] Tony Nabors: Because I really tried to make it win-win. It's just really interesting.

[37:21] Tonya Pinkins: It's just so interesting how those things work.

[37:25] Tony Nabors: Um, because that that ties into that, there's uh I've seen on LinkedIn for at least the last several few years these conversations about, you know, hey, so and so is offering this course on how to negotiate your salary.

[37:38] Tony Nabors: Um, you know, hey, you know, black broom people, you need to make sure you're negotiating your salary and you know, all these sorts of things that are putting the onus on people applying for, you know, for applicants for positions, um, as opposed to putting that energy and just saying, hey, organizations, like you know what your budget is for the role, you know what you're paying other people in the company that do the position, just pay fairly.

[38:02] Tonya Pinkins: Um, but you know, they don't because they want to save money and they want to cut those shortcuts.

[38:08] Tony Nabors: Um, and then oftentimes they don't think that people of certain uh demographic identities are worthy of said salaries, even though they're gonna be doing the same work. Um, so yes, it's very interesting.

[38:20] Tonya Pinkins: And for the ways in which oh, I'm sorry, go ahead.

[38:22] Tony Nabors: Go ahead, Tanya.

[38:23] Tonya Pinkins: No, no, and for a long time that was really just women.

[38:25] Tonya Pinkins: Uh, one of my guests I had a few weeks ago was Joanna Isaacson, who wrote this book called Step for Daughters, which really talks about what she calls sort of radical Marxist feminism and how the shift to this settler colonial capitalism had to create uh a different kind of slave class, and it became women who do all this uh unpaid labor, emotional labor, labor in the home.

[38:48] Tony Nabors: Um, but they had to be uh this sort of slave class to men who were doing this grunt work in the offices building the commodities that could be sold, and the way you entice them to do that is hey, you got a slave at home who's gonna cook and clean and provide all your emotional needs.

[39:04] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, and uh gosh, not to not to tangent too far, but that absolutely feeds into um a lot of the sort of uh you know, kind of alpha male kind of ring arising, or whatever you want to call it, like sort of these voices that talk about, you know, this is what women need to do, and this is you know, this is how men should be treated, and like all that sort of trash, uh, which doesn't work even for those people that grow really big platforms based off of those messages.

[39:32] Tony Nabors: Um so yeah, yeah, you're you're you're right that that all connects in together and it's all gross and harmful.

[39:40] Tonya Pinkins: Um, and it's harmful to everybody, you know, certainly especially to women who are the recipients of that kind of energy, but it's harmful to to men too, um, who think that that's what a sort of relationship should be is the sort of transactional thing, um, which I think is kind of depressing to tell you the truth.

[39:59] Tony Nabors: Now, when I the biggest thing I think that I came back from Africa with was that there's so much community there.

[40:06] Tony Nabors: And I came back home and I was like, I don't have community.

[40:06] Tony Nabors: I don't have community.

[40:10] Tony Nabors: I mean, in Africa, the three year olds would be doing something over here, and the nine year olds would be over there, and the women would be at the river washing the clothes, and the men might be sitting out, you know, watching a game, and there was just, you know, not much time for you to be alone, and people were so so much community, which we don't have much of that anymore.

[40:34] Tonya Pinkins: Um, how could DEI help us with that?

[40:37] Tony Nabors: That's great.

[40:38] Tony Nabors: Um, yeah, I think that I would say at maybe the maybe the maybe the most basic level uh is when we start to be able to fully realize the humanity of people who might have stories different from our own.

[40:52] Tony Nabors: Um, and realize that there are, you know, truly experiences and rich wisdom and just even ways of connection that other folks from other groups might have that we don't personally possess.

[41:06] Tony Nabors: Um, I think that, yeah, that definitely shifts a lot of the possibilities for our community.

[41:11] Tony Nabors: Uh something that's been interesting that I've been just you know, a little bit of kind of uh to a certain degree starting to experience is just even how the internet creates some new opportunities for connection, uh, where even if we physically might be in a you know a city or a town or a work experience that just is not really feeding us or doesn't really have people that we would even want to be in community with, uh, they're just sort of these new platforms to be able to find like-minded people.

[41:39] Tony Nabors: Uh, and I've I've loved I've loved ways that, well, I mean, even like social media, like even social media, I think that provides a pretty unique space for that that I can speak for myself, and then I have absolutely grown both in relationships and connection, and just even in my own sort of wisdom and knowledge base, specifically and uniquely because of connections to people through the internet.

[42:01] Tony Nabors: Um, and I'm thinking of uh a black people, there's like a black people religious group.

[42:06] Tony Nabors: Um, I formerly was pretty religious, I'm not so much anymore, but a black people religious group that specifically uh centered the needs and the safety in the stories of FEMS and LGBTQ people.

[42:20] Tony Nabors: And I was able to participate in that group, someone who was neither FEM nor LGBTQ.

[42:25] Tony Nabors: But just being in that community space and being able to sort of share those thoughts and just hear stories from people and start to grow in my understanding about some of these stories that I haven't been a part of experience myself.

[42:38] Tony Nabors: And then just realizing, oh my goodness, I didn't understand that this and this and this are unique pieces where we might all be black, but there's certain stories and experiences that I never have to deal with or experience or see.

[42:49] Tony Nabors: And then that helps me to just be a better community member, be a better friend, be a better partner, be a better advocate and accomplice.

[42:57] Tony Nabors: And you have to think about that from some of my more recent uh connections through Instagram, through through TikTok and all those kinds of different things.

[43:04] Tony Nabors: So I don't think that that will ever fit nearly fully replace, uh replace the physical connection pieces, but I think it at least can provide sort of a little bit of a stop gap, you know, as we figure out ways to get better uh at being in person.

[43:18] Tony Nabors: I guess I get a little suspicious inside of the online things because I have actually been sort of scammed inside that.

[43:26] Tony Nabors: You know what I mean?

[43:27] Tonya Pinkins: So I'm like, you know, people can pretend to be anybody online, you know.

[43:31] Tony Nabors: That is true.

[43:32] Tonya Pinkins: So I'm like, I don't know that you who you say you are, that you espouse, or you're just not trying to get get me to say something, or you know what I mean?

[43:41] Tony Nabors: So I can be uh I I I guess I I engage online, but I'm always suspicious, even of what I I read or you know, online.

[43:50] Tony Nabors: It's like, whoa, what, you know, I don't know.

[43:53] Tony Nabors: I don't know that I'm dealing, I don't know that this is written by anybody who's real.

[43:57] Tony Nabors: Uh, especially, I don't know if you've been using chat GPT, but whoa, what you can do with chat GPT now.

[44:03] Tony Nabors: Whoa, whoa, whoa.

[44:04] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[44:05] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, that is, oh gosh.

[44:07] Tonya Pinkins: So absolutely, absolutely.

[44:10] Tony Nabors: Um, and that could be a whole other that could be a whole other podcast of just talking about AI.

[44:16] Tony Nabors: But there's, you know, there's a lot of really exciting uses to that stuff, but a lot of absolutely terrifying special uses for that stuff.

[44:26] Tony Nabors: Um, and I think that that's gonna be, you know, already is you know, with chat GPT and some of these other tools, you know.

[44:32] Tony Nabors: This is this thing where people are getting all the cool artwork about their faces, which is you know, like stealing from real artists.

[44:37] Tony Nabors: Like already some of those conversations are starting to bubble.

[44:40] Tony Nabors: Um, and I have to imagine that these things are getting into regular, you know, Joe Schmoe people's hands.

[44:46] Tony Nabors: Um, that those things have been used by you know other folks for nefarious purposes that we weren't even aware of.

[44:52] Tonya Pinkins: Um, so yeah, I'm not mad at that.

[44:54] Tonya Pinkins: Like, I I definitely understand that that that suspicion.

[44:57] Tony Nabors: Um, I myself am very particular with how I engage people online, um, with very particular with my boundaries with my connection points.

[45:06] Tony Nabors: Um, but yeah, it'll be very interesting to see what that future is gonna look like, you know, not even necessarily five years, but you know, maybe maybe next year, maybe next couple of years, uh, you know, how that stuff is gonna be used to manipulate people.

[45:18] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I've been watching a lot of the the British shows uh have been doing a lot of stuff with deep fakes for some time and and focusing on the fact that they now have the capability to do real-time deep fakes.

[45:31] Tonya Pinkins: Like an if you can be watching a live interview with um, you know, someone asking questions, and they can they can deep fake it.

[45:40] Tonya Pinkins: And so it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa.

[45:43] Tonya Pinkins: So I'm gonna give you the last words here.

[45:45] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I'm gonna give you the last words.

[45:47] Tonya Pinkins: What would you like this audience, which is largely people who love the theater, uh love Broadway, love actors and singers, and you know, this is the Broadway Podcast Network.

[45:58] Tonya Pinkins: And I felt that your message is so important for everybody.

[46:02] Tonya Pinkins: And I do feel like as artists, we are the soul of our communities.

[46:08] Tonya Pinkins: We um demonstrate possibilities that that infest people's imaginations and uh and grow into uh new and better worlds.

[46:18] Tonya Pinkins: And so I felt that that was what you would bring to this audience, and that's why I invited you.

[46:23] Tonya Pinkins: So I want to I want to give you the last words to uh to say what you think is important about your work, and then let people know how they can engage with you beyond um beyond this this conversation you and I are having.

[46:36] Tony Nabors: For sure, for sure.

[46:37] Tony Nabors: I appreciate that.

[46:38] Tony Nabors: So I love the arts.

[46:40] Tony Nabors: Um I I practice the arts, I'm a portrait photographer, I sing a little bit, you know, I write a little bit.

[46:47] Tony Nabors: Um I love the arts, and what I specifically love about the arts is the ways that uh gosh, this is another paraphrase, uh, but Cornell West says something about uh he's talking about music specifically.

[46:59] Tony Nabors: Um something like music is like the only medium that can get inside of you and sort of transform you from the inside out without your permission.

[47:06] Tony Nabors: Like you just hear it, you're just exposed to it.

[47:08] Tony Nabors: And I think that's the case for so many, uh, so many of the arts.

[47:12] Tony Nabors: Um certainly, you know, theater uh being among those things and just the transformative ways that people can experience those shows and those stories.

[47:19] Tony Nabors: Um and I think that when we think about DEI, even in the arts and even in theater, and being able to experience in real time the feeling and the story and the writing and the view and the perspective of people that maybe you don't necessarily have the opportunity to in regular life or in your neighborhood or community is powerful and transformational, potentially game changing.

[47:43] Tony Nabors: And I love when I run into some media that tells a story that I just haven't been exposed to, or maybe even tells a story I've been exposed to, but captures it from a different cultural or identity lens that I just haven't seen before.

[47:57] Tony Nabors: So I think that even there, there's such an opportunity to be enriched as well as to support by actively and intentionally hearing new stories that one might not typically or traditionally be aware of or be exposed to.

[48:14] Tony Nabors: And so, and then by that, by that sort of infusion into ourselves that then gives us more tools to better pour into people whose voices and stories typically are ignored or not heard.

[48:27] Tony Nabors: And if we can, you know, even use our own sense of, you know, our own sense of awareness of our own story and wishing in ways that people would know more about us to be able to understand that, yeah, that's how that is for so many different groups of people.

[48:37] Tony Nabors: I think that's really powerful.

[48:39] Tony Nabors: And so, you know, I hope that as more voices are given platforms and are making movies and are in Broadway and making, you know, all these different places of art, uh, that people take that to heart and just have some level of intentionality with choosing to listen to folks or be in spaces that maybe they normally wouldn't have or might even feel uncomfortable or a little scary, whatever the case is.

[48:58] Tony Nabors: Um, yeah, I love that.

[49:00] Tony Nabors: I love that.

[49:00] Tony Nabors: And I love that uh that there's that opportunity for your audience.

[49:03] Tony Nabors: And so I pretty regularly am sharing stuff on social media.

[49:07] Tony Nabors: I'm especially active on Instagram and TikTok.

[49:09] Tony Nabors: Um at Racial Equity Insights.

[49:12] Tony Nabors: Um, and I also serve organizations and businesses.

[49:16] Tony Nabors: And I have ecourses that are really good for individual people as well.

[49:20] Tony Nabors: And people can check out everything that I do on my website, www.racialeequityinsights.com.

[49:26] Tonya Pinkins: Tony, it has been such a pleasure speaking with you.

[49:30] Tonya Pinkins: I hope I'm gonna visit Tanzania maybe in December.

[49:34] Tonya Pinkins: And if you're there, I'd love to meet you in person.

[49:37] Tonya Pinkins: Um, you know, I think it's the possibility of building relationship and community.

[49:42] Tonya Pinkins: Um it's just the only thing that matters in this world.

[49:45] Tonya Pinkins: And I was actually reading an article yesterday that said that is the key to happiness, and and that's also the thing I saw in in Africa is that these people didn't have an iota of what I have in terms of material resources, but I saw community, I saw happiness, I saw people with all needs met, and it was very humbling for me.

[50:07] Tony Nabors: Yeah, I agree, I agree.

[50:09] Tony Nabors: I've experienced that as well.

[50:10] Tony Nabors: Um, and it's definitely sort of a big challenge to sort of our uh maybe unrealized notions about what what's really valuable.

[50:20] Tony Nabors: Um yes, if you come to Tanzania, please, please contact me.

[50:23] Tony Nabors: That would be wonderful.

[50:25] Tony Nabors: I I would love to meet you in person, um, and especially to be able to do so on the continent itself.

[50:30] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[50:31] Tonya Pinkins: I know it would be so awesome.

[50:34] Tonya Pinkins: Um, so thank you so much.

[50:37] Tonya Pinkins: And um blessings to you and your family and your four sons.

[50:41] Tonya Pinkins: Keeping them safe.

[50:42] Tonya Pinkins: I understand how important that is.

[50:45] Tonya Pinkins: Um, and I wish them safety.

[50:47] Tonya Pinkins: And you are listening to Tonya Pinkins, you can't SAY THAT on the Broadway Podcast Network.

[50:54] Tonya Pinkins: Thanks for listening to You Can't SAY THAT.

[50:57] Tonya Pinkins: The show where you can.

[50:59] Tonya Pinkins: I'm Tonya Pinkins, and You Can't SAY THAT is part of the Broadway Podcast Network, produced by Dori Berinstein and Alan Seales, with music by Kat Dale.

[51:10] Tonya Pinkins: If you like what you hear, don't forget to subscribe and rate this podcast highly wherever you stream.

[51:18] Tonya Pinkins: Follow me on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Tonya Pinkins.