This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:17] Tonya Pinkins: Hi, this is Tonya Pinkins, and it's You Can't SAY THAT, this show where you can.

[0:23] Tonya Pinkins: I am so lucky that I get to have conversations with people who are smart and who interest me, and I get to ask them tough questions.

[0:30] Tonya Pinkins: And my guest today is a creative polymath.

[0:34] Tonya Pinkins: She creates in a lot of different forums. She's a theater producer, indie film producer, and she coaches artists on making their own films, novels, or just expanding their business.

[0:48] Tonya Pinkins: Her website, Zip Creative, is packed with amazing information and exercises on how to get into making your own work.

[0:58] Tonya Pinkins: So I want to welcome Joanne Zippel.

[1:01] Joanne Zippel: Well, thank you, Tonya. It's great to be here. Thank you for having me.

[1:05] Tonya Pinkins: So I actually listened to someone posted a session with you.

[1:10] Tonya Pinkins: And I listened. Carrie Carlock, was that her name?

[1:14] Joanne Zippel: Carlock, yes.

[1:15] Tonya Pinkins: Carrie Carlock. I listened to a session with Carrie.

[1:18] Tonya Pinkins: I was like, is Gary serious about it?

[1:20] Joanne Zippel: Oh, yeah.

[1:21] Tonya Pinkins: Okay. She's a filmmaker who, you know, it's her second feature.

[1:21] Joanne Zippel: Second feature.

[1:27] Tonya Pinkins: Second feature. Okay. And you've been working with her through the first and the second?

[1:30] Joanne Zippel: No, I only started working with her maybe early in September.

[1:36] Tonya Pinkins: Okay. Um, yeah. And she was somebody who, you know, as an independent filmmaker, was going through all the, you know, that what you have to go through to get your films.

[1:47] Tonya Pinkins: What do you have to go through?

[1:48] Joanne Zippel: Well, it's, you know, you know.

[1:49] Tonya Pinkins: I know, but the people who are listening don't know.

[1:52] Joanne Zippel: Right. Okay. Well, it's not an easy thing to do. Uh, but she also was a very successful television producer who worked for, did all these HG, you know, HGTV shows like Flip or Flop and things like that.

[2:08] Joanne Zippel: And she and her husband are co-creators. Um, so they have this new feature that they're trying to get off the ground, and she was trying to make that switch from being in that world of reality television, you know, being an executive, and then taking that and leaving that situation and really going into the independent filmmaking full-time and doing some freelance stuff on the side.

[2:39] Tonya Pinkins: But so that's a big step for somebody. So we were sort of navigating that when she left that company and really opened up to really focus on her work.

[2:49] Joanne Zippel: And it's hard to switch because once capitalism figures out that you can make them money doing something, they don't like you to decide you want to do something else.

[2:56] Tonya Pinkins: Right. It's not, yeah, absolutely. But also as the artist, it's scary. It's a real to go from having that secure kind of income and then to say my safety net's not there.

[3:10] Joanne Zippel: And but at the same time, what's hard about it is unless you have a situation where you have that flexibility to work on your passion work, you that you, um, it can sidetrack you from doing what you really want to do.

[3:24] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I guess I've just always been that crazy person who doesn't like to be afraid. So if I'm afraid, then you're just gonna have to do it to me. Like threaten me, okay, then you're gonna have to do it because being afraid of you threatening me is not gonna work for me.

[3:36] Joanne Zippel: So I need to, you know, that's my personality. As soon as you issue the threat, then you gotta do it.

[3:42] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[3:43] Joanne Zippel: Yeah. And I think though, but you know, I one of the things that I feel that I do and how I support artists is helping them kind of tap into that place in themselves that doesn't have the fear that can really step into that, I call it the inner work, you know.

[4:01] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[4:01] Joanne Zippel: Um, the inner work being a vision for what it is you want to do, uh, and a very I'm very into vision with a lot of clarity.

[4:10] Joanne Zippel: Uh, and then some of those limiting beliefs that hold you back from that vision. What are they? And are they real? And how do you cope with them? How do you deal with those things?

[4:22] Joanne Zippel: Uh, and so that's part of the work that I do is really helping them have a foundation for doing what they want to do and really tapping into that true part of themselves, which is not fear, it's always good. You know, the fear is the narratives, the things that everyone is telling you, or you things you grew up with, people they were telling you as a child, or the media or whatever it is, those are those narratives that we think are our highly paid counsel, but in reality, they're just thought forms, right?

[4:54] Joanne Zippel: And so, how do you kind of get back into that place of pure creation and connection to yourself, the one where you're in flow? I'm very, I very much believe in that.

[5:07] Joanne Zippel: I also have a, you know, a book called Get Over Yourself, How to Drop the Drama and Claim the Life You Deserve, and that's I love that kind of work that I used to do because I found that as a teacher, um, I could I'm clairvoyant, so I can I can move people's energy and I can I can give people an experience of their power, but it doesn't really matter if they don't have a belief to match it.

[5:28] Joanne Zippel: So everybody in the room can be like, oh my God. And and and then if you don't have a framework to believe that that is who you are, you can't hold it, you can't be in it. You can't hold that higher vibration, really.

[5:41] Tonya Pinkins: Right, exactly. You can't hold that higher vibration. It's interesting you brought up vibration because I was at um agape when the secret before it was released nationally, and I was studying. I don't know if you know Michael Beckwith's church agape.

[5:55] Tonya Pinkins: It's a science of mind church, and I was taking classes to become a practitioner, which is really about someone who can hold higher vibrational energies for the world, for other, you know, that's what it's about.

[6:08] Tonya Pinkins: And I remember for me when the secret, when I saw that video, I thought, oh my god, this is really dangerous. I said there's nothing in it that's not true, but it's just not that simple. This is like giving kindergartners a PhD class.

[6:22] Tonya Pinkins: And then Oprah released it in 2008, and we have the world financial collapse. And I thought this the irony of people learning the secret while simultaneously the financial collapses because it's not enough to think anything. You have to be it, you have to vibrationally become that which you desire.

[6:41] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, I actually study energy too.

[6:43] Tonya Pinkins: Okay, tell us, tell me, tell me.

[6:44] Joanne Zippel: Well, I've been working with a teacher for a while in New York, um for quite a long time who teaches embodiment yoga.

[6:50] Joanne Zippel: So part of the work that I and it really informs the work that I do as a creative coach. Um, and it is about being able to tap into and hold vibration, higher vibrational energy in your life, uh, and to be in a more expanded place than to be in that darker lower energy.

[7:10] Tonya Pinkins: How does that work in embodiment yoga?

[7:12] Joanne Zippel: I've never even heard of embodiment yoga.

[7:13] Joanne Zippel: It's really an interesting philosophy. Well, it's not even philosophy, it's just a practice.

[7:16] Joanne Zippel: And she, this woman, Ronit Singer, developed it and channeled it, if you will. And I think it's really about being able to connect to your body and be in your body versus being in your head and stay in that space.

[7:38] Joanne Zippel: Because we're all so much in our heads. And as a civilization, you know, we're stuck in our heads. And so when you can be in that positive, you know, connected place with your body, you can bring the energy of oneness in.

[7:56] Tonya Pinkins: Well, I often I think for me, the kind of discipline of that I think of it is I like to think that I'm like the whole of existence is an ocean, and I'm a drop in the ocean. And when I get all my thoughts out of the way, the ocean can express in through and as me in a very full way.

[8:15] Joanne Zippel: I think that's a really good metaphor for what that is.

[8:19] Joanne Zippel: So sometimes it's just about can I just cease to exist and all my ego and all my desires, can I cease to exist and rest in the ocean of consciousness and existence so that it can express more fully than I could ever think of. And it's all one anyway, you know.

[8:35] Tonya Pinkins: So I know we're talking about these things.

[8:40] Joanne Zippel: Yeah. It's being able to connect to what's not separate from you. Because you're, you know, we're all just energy, you know.

[8:47] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah. We're all just matter. I mean, Einstein said that, you know.

[8:50] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, but I think it's so hard for people to believe that. I mean, I think of, I've probably been saying this to my children, I four, um, forever, and they were went to agape with me.

[9:01] Tonya Pinkins: And they I don't, they don't, you know, they still don't believe when I say, don't worry about money. Like when you know what you need to do, away can get made. And money is not ever uh the answer or the way that's gonna keep you from getting anything, because it can happen if it's meant to happen, if energetically it's meant to happen.

[9:23] Joanne Zippel: And I I don't know how to, you know, that it's one of those kind of mystical things, but it's how I've lived my whole life that what I'm supposed to do, away's gonna get made.

[9:35] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, well, it's worked for you. That's for sure.

[9:37] Tonya Pinkins: So you're clearly a creator yourself. Why did you get into this business of helping other creators?

[9:45] Joanne Zippel: Well, I think it's interesting. I, you know, I started in theater, I had a company that marketed Broadway and off Broadway shows, you know, I did all these things as a producer.

[9:57] Joanne Zippel: Uh, and I then I started managing writers and and directors and and playwrights. And I went through kind of my own, I guess, moment of like what do I really want in my life?

[10:11] Tonya Pinkins: And did that happen after your um mince ended?

[10:15] Joanne Zippel: Um, I actually probably it did. It probably did. It was coinciding with that.

[10:22] Joanne Zippel: But um I I also went through a divorce, so that which was grateful that it was it ended up being amicable, but at the same time, it was a really big life change.

[10:35] Joanne Zippel: And probably, you know, I probably had the most change of my life from that, you know, even more than when my mother passed away before that. You know, that that kind of it's a big big thing. All these things that change our identity.

[10:46] Tonya Pinkins: Right.

[10:47] Joanne Zippel: And I had two children, and you know, I I um, you know, was commuting to the city, and I was doing I was doing back and forth, and it was really a time when I was like, what do I really want to do?

[10:57] Joanne Zippel: And I realized that the thing I love most about working with artists was that one on one staying true to your vision in the face of all this crazy negativity, which is you know which is what this industry is.

[11:12] Joanne Zippel: It's all about people telling you no and you can't do it, and it's too hard, and don't even try. And it's hard. And so I realized that I think there was always this coach in me.

[11:23] Joanne Zippel: And so I actually got trained as a life coach. I went back and got trained as a life coach that I could bring with an emphasis on doing remarkable work.

[11:33] Joanne Zippel: Um, we don't have to work in unremarkable toxic situations. We can create, even if it's not our soul work yet, you know, there's there's this model that I learned when I was um training as a life coach, and I think it's a really great model, and it's that there are two types of work there's unremarkable work, which is work that you do that you hate, or for whatever reason you're working too many hours, or you can't stand the people or the work, you don't like it, but it's toxic, you know, you don't want to be there, and then there's remarkable work.

[12:07] Joanne Zippel: Um, the two kinds of remarkable work are um your passion work, your soul work, which is the best representation of your passion, your purpose, and that could be paid or unpaid. I mean, there are people who are stay-at-home parents who that's their soul work, you know, or they are volunteer and they and and it's their soul work, but there, as an artist, one hopes that their soul work is paid and they can make a living and they can really, you know, prosper at that financially. But then there's another type of remarkable work, and that's bridge work.

[12:39] Joanne Zippel: And bridge work's not just a day job. What is that? Bridge work is it's you take you're using your skills and your talents, some of them, things that you you feel nurtured by the work, you're doing things that you feel good in the doing of. You're working in an environment where people support you. Um you are uh making enough money to live so that you're not bleeding and you're, you know, you you feel like you know, you're you're you're not feeling desperate. Uh but you and the thing about it though is that you always have enough time and energy to be working towards your soul work. So you're, you know, that's the difference.

[13:23] Joanne Zippel: You know, there's this toxic, unremarkable. You might not, you're so drained by it, the toxic, unremarkable work, that you don't have the time and energy to always be working towards your soul work. I think I unconsciously knew this as a young person because like soap operas were something I dreamed of being on, but they weren't fulfilling creatively, only because I wasn't didn't have a storyline. If I had a storyline, they would have been, but they funded my ability to do theater.

[13:54] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, and and so it was my bridge to that until they then started being punitive about it, and it was like if you want to do that, you know, showcase over there, you've got to give back $10,000 of your salary. Right. And then it went into the unremarkable toxic work. Exactly. And then was like, okay, then I don't need to be here anymore. It's a great way to judge, too, because you might be in an unremarkable work situation, but if you made some shifts in it, you could turn it into remarkable work.

[14:20] Joanne Zippel: It's possible. And by the same token, you might be in a bridge work situation, and then something happens where either, like you said, you know, you've got uh someone's telling you no, you can't do this, or it's it's not working for you anymore. Yeah. And then it's no longer the bridge. So it's it's a kind of a good model for people to weigh, like, what am I doing? Particularly artists, because artists have to find ways to support themselves throughout their process, you know, with the uncertainty of a lot of work, getting out of work.

[14:51] Tonya Pinkins: What about this? I I feel like so many people, one right now, young people either are looking at people who are internet stars and comparing themselves to that, or just people comparing other people's life or what it looks like curated online to what they're doing and think they should be doing. Like I see that a lot, or I experience that with my kids, you know, this comparison thing where you aren't able to just be if you're doing something and you're happy and it's working, it's you know, paying the bills, that that's not enough.

[15:25] Tonya Pinkins: That that there's the unhappiness with something that actually is working because it's not what you see over there, right? Well, I think comparisons are like death, like it's horrible to because, and that's I think with anything when you know we are when we compare to other people, because it it it takes away our power, it it disintegrates. But that's our whole culture now.

[15:48] Joanne Zippel: That's right, that's right. But that's where the strength and the knowing yourself and the knowing your vision and being connected to that place allows you to say, look, no, I I'm not, I'm not gonna go there. I'm not, I'm not gonna compare myself in that way. Because it's all it's always disempowering to do that.

[16:06] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah, I even think like I I'm assuming your clients have social media um existences and you have to coach them through that.

[16:14] Joanne Zippel: Absolutely. And uh tell us about that, because I feel like that is like so toxic and so not creative trying to create this brand, the brand.

[16:26] Joanne Zippel: Absolutely. Please, what is that? Oh man, I mean it's a big that's a big conversation, you know. Um I think actually, I just did a uh seminar, uh a panel. It was uh down at IFC for Craft Ed last week, and um it was on that whole thing about like how do you the business of your business, how do you market yourself, that and branding yourself, and and um you know it's it and that was a big question.

[16:53] Joanne Zippel: Like, what do you do with social media? Because so many people are like, oh God, I can't, it's it's like a cesspool, I can't stand it, or I don't want to post what I had for breakfast, you know. And I don't want to see it either. Right, exactly. But there are people who are making a living on that, right?

[17:08] Joanne Zippel: And so that's I think where it has to come from, it's gotta come from who do you want to connect to? And who's your audience? Who it's about finding your community, your the people that you your audience, what information do you have that's gonna be a value to them? And why do you know why do you want to share that?

[17:33] Joanne Zippel: You know, social media is also a really great opportunity for people to connect outside of social media. Like for instance on Twitter or something, you know, if you're following somebody who that you really like what they're doing, or you know, they're connecting, you can actually, you know, have an outside meeting. You can actually create and connect with people.

[17:54] Tonya Pinkins: You mean like we've been communicating on Twitter, I've been following you, and we've been having a conversation.

[17:59] Joanne Zippel: Oh, you want to meet off platform?

[18:01] Tonya Pinkins: Right, absolutely. That'd be a little scary for me.

[18:04] Joanne Zippel: It depends on it depends.

[18:06] Tonya Pinkins: Well, it obviously depends on who the person is.

[18:08] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, but you don't know who the person is. You can't know, come on.

[18:12] Tonya Pinkins: I'm and I think people can pretend to be anybody.

[18:15] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, but I I'm thinking about in terms of artists, okay. That you know that they're really an artist.

[18:20] Tonya Pinkins: So you're not saying meeting a fan, you're saying meeting an artist.

[18:24] Joanne Zippel: No, I'm talking about your your collaborators.

[18:27] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah.

[18:27] Joanne Zippel: How are you gonna meet your collaborators? How are you gonna meet people who really connect with you?

[18:31] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[18:32] Joanne Zippel: You know, I always say tell my my clients, you know, who do you really want to be working with?

[18:36] Tonya Pinkins: Okay.

[18:37] Joanne Zippel: You know, who are the who are the people that inspire you? Um, who if they met you and they saw your work, they'd get you, you know, and you'd get them. There'd be a sympatico there. How do you find those people?

[18:37] Joanne Zippel: Who are the people that are going to really be your the the people they're gonna you're gonna do your next project with, you know, and because it's all about relationships, really. Full relationships. Relationship building, and and you know, so this whole idea of, you know, I've got it, and and and also artists are naturally some of them are very sure they can be introverts, some of them, and it's like this whole idea, how do I put myself out there?

[19:16] Joanne Zippel: And you know, I hate doing, I don't like to go to networking events or that kind of thing. And you know, it's it's really looking at that in a way and saying, what's authentic for me, and how can I put out there what I'm about and connect to the people who are really going to connect, get that and connect with that.

[19:37] Tonya Pinkins: Have you found any people who are really good at doing that for the people who don't want to do that?

[19:44] Joanne Zippel: You know, like I wanna hire you to make my brand world so I don't have to do it. Because I think a lot of people would pay for that service.

[19:54] Tonya Pinkins: Right. But I I still think you have to know who you are and what it is that you stand for.

[20:00] Joanne Zippel: I'm, you know, I I like part of that vision. But I like variety. I I once had a casting director say to me, Um, Tanya, I just never think of you for anything because you can do everything.

[20:12] Tonya Pinkins: And and I feel like, yeah, that's that's the career I wanted to make.

[20:15] Joanne Zippel: Uh I feel like people become superstars for coming up with a brand, that they're Starbucks, and we know when we see them, we're gonna get the this or we're gonna get the that.

[20:27] Tonya Pinkins: But your character actors, they can do different kinds of characters.

[20:31] Joanne Zippel: But even some of your character actors, you're the bad guy. Whenever we see you, we know you're the bad guy.

[20:33] Tonya Pinkins: I I work very hard to not be typecast.

[20:35] Joanne Zippel: To not be typecast, which means when they're thinking of the judge or the this, I don't come to mind because I could also be the victim or the thing.

[20:48] Tonya Pinkins: That's true, that's true.

[20:49] Joanne Zippel: But I I also think that you know, just allowing yourself to be typecast is is a dead end, and and you know, this idea that you're just gonna be doing one thing because the casting directors know what you want, is I think that's deadly too, you know.

[21:04] Joanne Zippel: And and that's why I encourage everyone and to not only, if you're an actor, to not to not just be an actor, but to be a creator as well and even if you're not a writer find writers who you really connect with and and develop ideas and you have to be a producer too you have to produce your own work in this day and age it's not vanity it's it's you have to be totally involved in the work and making it happen.

[21:32] Tonya Pinkins: Agreed.

[21:32] Joanne Zippel: And that's where you know it's it's in essence I guess I help people step into their entrepreneurial selves and be the CEOs of the creative career.

[21:43] Tonya Pinkins: Yes.

[21:44] Joanne Zippel: You know and I think that's the work is how do you determine what it is you love to do and what what makes you unique what is it that you love that you can project you know so I have definitely hired career coaches before I saw online that you I maybe at the panel you were at there was some New York Women and Film panel I think where you were offering people a session.

[22:13] Joanne Zippel: Yes I do that I'm I'm a member of New York Women Film and so I'll give people a session I'm like a I'm a pro bono coach for them so I offer the members I'm a member we're gonna do one right now I don't know I'm making it up so I had a coach uh uh a session from a coach in another organization that I'm a member of and um the advice that I got from them and I'm a there's two people actually who gave me this similar advice this first person was like Tanya you uh cannot go around intimidating people and you can't be letting people know all these things that you do.

[22:50] Joanne Zippel: Um, you know, you just have to show up and be the thing that you know they're looking for and just be that. So that was one person.

[23:00] Tonya Pinkins: That was one coach.

[23:01] Joanne Zippel: That was one coach. And then uh a dear friend and mentor of mine the other day, uh said to me, I said to them, you know, you are the only person I will work for again because you're just the most brilliant human being I've ever met.

[23:16] Joanne Zippel: And they were like, no, no, you have to work for other people. Um your problem is you're just like this other actor. You're both too smart.

[23:23] Tonya Pinkins: And I'm like, that other actor is a movie star.

[23:26] Joanne Zippel: So they, you know, they we cannot compare me to them and like because they figured it out.

[23:26] Joanne Zippel: They figured it out. Said, you cannot lead with your smarts, because if you lead with your smarts, everyone else is going to retreat.

[23:39] Joanne Zippel: And then you you're you're not gonna get in. And uh he said, so you have to just you have to charm, you have to charm everybody. And then once they fall in love with you and you charm them, then you can be smart later. And I was like, you know what? That is too much work. And when I walked away from that, I thought, as a man, that's an easy thing to say. And both of these people were men. And for me, it's like that's was my whole life. I was a woman. I used to go in and have to be charming and had to smile and had to do this. And you know what? It got me as far as it got me. It didn't get me to where I wanted to go. And once I went into menopause, I was like, you know what? I'm gonna give myself the opportunities that I've been trying to charm people into giving me.

[24:15] Tonya Pinkins: Well, did you have you read Neo Naomi's book yet?

[24:18] Joanne Zippel: No, I haven't.

[24:19] Tonya Pinkins: Oh, you need to read it because it's all about that. It's all about that. And that is Naomi Douglas. Naomi McDougal Jones. Who wrote, who wrote Bite Me and Stars and Bite Me, the film that the wrong kind of woman broke them into a knife up panel tonight about it. Yeah, it's called The Wrong Kind of Women. Um, it's Inside Our Revolution to dismantle the gods of Hollywood. Did you coach her on that?

[24:43] Joanne Zippel: Uh, well, yes, that was when we were working together. That's when she's that book happened. You know, but that was also, it was really a result of a TED talk she did in 2016, that then went um on the national TED stage about a week after the Harvey and Weinstein thing um uh broke and it got over a million views, and it's it's really about you know gender parody and why we need gender parity in the stories that we tell. Uh and so I I mean uh she she can you'll you'll hear more a lot more about it. She's going to be a guest on our show. And I think you should definitely here you are. Where I'm getting my career coaching right now.

[25:29] Tonya Pinkins: Here we go. Oh, so yeah, you're giving me a coaching. I don't know.

[25:34] Joanne Zippel: Okay, well I'm well, you know that I'm uh uh filmmaker now, and I'm also a theater producer. So that's right. Uh last year I had an actor.

[25:41] Tonya Pinkins: You're a multi- you're a true multi-hyphen.

[25:43] Joanne Zippel: Multi-hyphenate, which is what I believe artists need to be and I and they need to show it loud and proud. Yep, and I invest in things that I want to make. Like I I uh invited about 30 writers to write 10 minute plays about how women um harm one another and model how to heal those wounds. So I've been producing that for the last year and in the midst of editing the videos of that at the tank. And then last year, after shadowing for three years uh in television and not feeling any closer to getting hired as a television director, decided to write direct, produce my own feature film.

[26:17] Tonya Pinkins: Wow.

[26:18] Joanne Zippel: Three years of shadowing.

[26:19] Tonya Pinkins: I shadow for three years.

[26:21] Joanne Zippel: Man, it it's it's screwed up, you know. I mean, it's really screwed up. And I have the privilege that I could call showrunners and say, hey, can I come and shadow? I didn't have to. I'm actually I got turned down by the programs that let you shadow. So I just picked up the email and asked, you know, the directors that asked can I show you? Well, you know, like there's the Sony program and the the different programs that you get in them and you go out there and they're in a shadowing, yeah. So I just asked showrunners and they allowed me to shadow. And even had an open invitation from Warner Brothers to shadow any Warner show and an offer that if anybody would guarantee me a directing job, they would put me through the program and pay my director's fee, and still couldn't get a job.

[27:04] Tonya Pinkins: And what do you why do you think that is?

[27:06] Joanne Zippel: I don't know. And I'm not, I'm definitely a person who's not, I try not to get bogged down in the whys of things because I feel like that is one of those distractions that can lead you down a very dark rabbit hole. It's like, okay, that's not working. Well, what can I do that's going to work for me?

[27:20] Tonya Pinkins: Oh no, I think that makes sense. Absolutely. Because the whys, you could never know the why.

[27:24] Joanne Zippel: Right. That's true. And especially in this industry, because it can be extremely arbitrary. You just don't know.

[27:30] Tonya Pinkins: Extremely arbitrary. And and I think one of the things that has come up for me in the last two or three years, I think a gift from one director, Tali Shalom Ezea, who I worked on a film called My Days of Mercy. Um, she kept directing me and saying, Could you could you do less? Could you could you just throw that away? Could you? And I'm like trying to do whatever she's asking. And finally she sat me down and she was like, Tanya, you know, I'm so sorry that I keep like giving you these notes to do less, be less. She said, You're just you, you're very compelling on camera. You're a star, and it's not your movie. And you know, when you're on screen with my leads, I I don't want to take my eyes off you. And it was like, that was a gift because I've been getting those notes my whole career. And I thought, what am I doing wrong? What am I doing wrong? You know?

[28:18] Joanne Zippel: So why is it you want to direct TV?

[28:22] Tonya Pinkins: I think I wanted to direct TV because at the time I thought it was creative. This is my session, I can tell. Like her whole posture just shifted. You walk in to have it. Her posture shifted. She stepped into like the eyes being lasered in on me. At the time, I wanted to direct TV because I thought it was creative. I quickly learned after my very first uh opportunity shadowing that the director in television is powerless as an actor unless they were the director of the pilot and they're in VP. And they were one of the things that they are a hired hand, they're there to solve problems, they're there to be the arm extension of all the people who aren't on set. So that was but but I couldn't have known that if I hadn't done it.

[29:07] Joanne Zippel: Right. And it's still a very high-paying job and uh would allow me to work with actors, and the the salary is a lot higher than it is for you know just guest spots as an actor. So for me, that would be a great bridge job that would allow me to fund the other things I like to do.

[29:23] Tonya Pinkins: True, but uh but also you have to be careful, and I'm not saying that you shouldn't do it, but you know, d uh if you really want a career as a director that often you can get stuck as a TV director and not be, you know, and be that journey person, right? Not and not be in the creative part of it. So there's that aspect of it too, but it's really good money, and I think that's the thing. So you have to say, okay, can I can it can it be bridge work for me, or is it gonna veer into unremarkable because I'm not doing my other work?

[29:54] Joanne Zippel: Well, it wasn't even the opportunity for it to even be bridge work for me, it was not showing up for me. So that what that door as far as I was concerned, because you know you you're taking time off that you aren't available to work, so that you can be on a set from pre-production through an edit. So that's a month of your time that you have to be able to afford to not work, not have any income going in. If you've taken yourself to another state, you're putting yourself up, you know. For your own stuff.

[30:19] Tonya Pinkins: Right. You you're you you're out of the business for that month of commitment to that shadowing. So it was like I had invested enough in that that the returns weren't coming. So it's like, okay, time to do something else. And for me, that something else was to write, produce, direct star in my own feature film.

[30:36] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, which that, you know, that's exciting, you know. And that's where it sounds like that's really the next step for you, and to be able to get this work out there in a big way. And and also because it just sounds so fascinating what you're doing.

[30:53] Tonya Pinkins: Well, I loved it. I felt like it was the film itself, you know. One of the first times in a very long time, probably since being an older woman, that I was actually firing on all cylinders. You know, I I I think I do think that there's a mythology that tries to disempower older women, but I think older women, we're we are the most powerful beings on the planet. We don't have those chemicals going through our body that look us crazy and make us go belly up for the boys. And so we can focus, we can we know that we don't have to make excuses, we don't have to explain, we want what we want, we don't want what we don't want, and that's the only reason for us to do anything. And that is we we we're we're less manipulatable, and so it's like I feel like I'm more powerful than I've ever been in my entire life.

[31:44] Joanne Zippel: Yeah, feel good, right?

[31:46] Tonya Pinkins: It it feels really great. And I'm like, who's gonna want me in their room? They can't put me on a leash.

[31:53] Joanne Zippel: Well, so everything you've been doing has led you to this moment.

[31:58] Tonya Pinkins: Absolutely. Right. So, you know, it's making your own work. Maybe that's that's your sweet spot.

[32:07] Joanne Zippel: It feels like it.

[32:08] Tonya Pinkins: Yeah. So what do you make spot? I mean, you gotta get this this thing out in the world.

[32:14] Joanne Zippel: Yeah. This is a learning curve, and I like to learn. So I love uh learning all the different jobs that there are because then when you have to hire people, I like to know what people do so that I know that my expectations of them aren't too great. I'm not that's just how I like to work. I like to understand where people are coming from when they're doing their job. Um, I mean, I have like five or six more films I want to make until I'm bored with that. And there are they films you've written, or if yeah, oh wow, so they're all gonna they're they're already um I have about five scripts that are already written. Um, the next one that I think I want to make first is not written yet, but I think it's a little some of my other ones will require big money because they're like, you know, I'm I'm a horror girl. That's my jam, that's my genre, so I'm all about the horror.

[33:16] Tonya Pinkins: Right. So so you know, what is it that you feel right now is a question that you have about, you know, what how you want to proceed?

[33:33] Joanne Zippel: Hmm. A question. That's a such a thing. Look at that. She's like, she's coaching me. A question. Do I have a question? Um where you are right now. I think you'll understand this that, you know, from that vibrational place. I wanted my film uh in in private screenings right now. And that didn't happen. And so I've also gotten to that place in my life where it's like, you know what? Often when when the universe says no, it's for a good reason. So I'm like, you know, this might not have been the moment. The coronavirus is is the is the top of the news right now. So this might not, you know, the universe had a better plan than I did.

[34:19] Tonya Pinkins: I don't know. A question. Well, is it is it about kind of what your next step is on the film, or you know, in or in terms of your career? Uh, because I think that um you were talking about this whole idea, well, should I be directing TV or should I be doing all these other things? You know, what is it that you where you are in this moment that is either a challenge for you? Is there a challenge you're having right now that you would say, gosh, this is like the easiest moment I've ever had in my life.

[34:58] Joanne Zippel: The only challenge I have right now, really in my life is like, you know, some of my children's challenges. Those are my my biggest challenges, they say you're only as happy as your least happy child.

[35:08] Tonya Pinkins: Don't say no when you mean no This is Tonya Pinkins, and that was part one of my conversation with Joanne Zippel, a Zip Creative.