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[0:01] Erica Halverson: I mean, I will say living in a flyover state and having lived in a flyover state for most of my adult life, Broadway's fine. But the real action is in communities where theater making happens. I think it is remarkable how many theater for young audiences groups have come out of the pandemic still intact.

[0:29] Erica Halverson: As far as I know, most of them have come out the other side and are still making work. That seems to me to be where the good stuff is.

[0:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast, where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff.

[1:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Today, I'm going to begin by setting the scene. Picture it, everybody. It's the 2003 Broadway season, okay? And in terms of new musicals, the big hit is Hairspray, clearly. Original music, bright, energetic, everybody loves it.

[1:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: A close second, Moving Out, the music of Billy Joel, directed and choreographed by Twyla Tharp. It's easy to forget how big that show was because, like, complex dance shows just aren't recreated regionally. And then, probably coming in at number three is a show that didn't have a long run, only 73 performances, but got terrific reviews, was a huge hit off Broadway, got nominated for Best Musical as well as a couple of other Tony Awards, and has had hundreds of local productions since then.

[1:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, and it's a musical written specifically for audiences ages 4 to 10. Today, we're talking about the musical A Year with Frog and Toad, and we're doing it with a leading thinker and researcher on arts education.

[2:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Her book, How the Arts Can Save Education, inspired an amazing podcast called Arts Educators Save the World that features incredible guests like Jonathan Groff and Lin-Manuel Miranda. This episode is essential listening to anyone who wants the future to be better, and I'm obsessed that it's somehow all based around Frog and Toad. Everyone, please welcome to the podcast, Dr. Erica Halvorson. Yay!

[2:36] Erica Halverson: The future is brighter with A Year with Frog and Toad. I think that is an excellent starting place. I've been listening for the last two days to get myself hyped up to have a whole Frog and Toad themed conversation.

[2:51] Erica Halverson: It's kind of impossible to be in a bad mood listening to this show.

[2:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Agreed.

[2:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hard stop. And I'm excited to talk about it, so thank you so much for being here.

[3:00] Erica Halverson: Thanks for having me. This is such a fun way to talk about ideas and topics and questions around the role of musical theater in kids' learning lives, to focus on the musical itself, because often we get into the sort of cheesy, like, things are good for kids, but to really see it through the lens of a high-quality piece of art is really cool.

[3:24] Erica Halverson: High-quality is a thing that's going to come up throughout this episode, I really feel, because Frog and Toad takes children's theater seriously, right? It's not just an afterthought. It's not something that we do until children are big enough to experience a good show, right? Quote, unquote.

[3:42] Erica Halverson: And there's nothing I hate more than art that thinks it is good for someone. Let's do this because it's good for children. And I will say I have, in my performance career, I have performed in quite a bit of theater, quote, unquote, theater for young audiences, and a lot of it is schlocky and lame.

[4:06] Erica Halverson: Because it draws on tropes of what people think kids should like and what people think kids can handle. And that's why when we were going back and forth about what show we wanted to talk about, this one has none of those features. This one is silly and smart and complicated. It deals with feelings in real ways.

[4:33] Erica Halverson: And yet relatable, so relatable to a child. Now, can you tell me just about your work in general? Because you mentioned your performing career. So how did this all congeal?

[4:46] Erica Halverson: So my day job is a professor of curriculum and instruction at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. And in that role, I study how people learn in and through the arts, with a focus on the performing arts, because that's my heart.

[5:06] Erica Halverson: And I have started and run two different community arts outreach organizations, one that is in Chicago, that when we founded it was called Barrel of Monkeys, and it's now called Playmakers Lab, and a program that I run here in Madison called Whoopin Soccer, which is, fun fact, a word from the old upper Midwestern dialect dictionary that means something extraordinary of its kind.

[5:35] Erica Halverson: How adorable is that?

[5:38] Erica Halverson: Silly and local and fits the vibe. And if you say it with a Wisconsin accent, you can say, we had a whoopin soccer of a good time. It was real fun. So Whoopin Soccer, we go into elementary school classrooms, third and fourth grade primarily, so kids who are considered kind of emergent readers and writers.

[6:01] Erica Halverson: And we teach creative expression through writing and improvisation and performance. And so kids are engaged in a whole bunch of different activities that give them access to different ways of storytelling, through drawing, through playwriting, and then we work with kids for about 90 minutes a week for about six weeks.

[6:25] Erica Halverson: And at the conclusion of the residency, kids have produced hundreds and hundreds of stories all together. We have a performing ensemble, a professional performing ensemble, we take the writing, and we choose in a very complicated process, about 20 different pieces, and we create a vaudeville style sketch comedy show of the kids' writing.

[6:46] Erica Halverson: And we perform it for them in a sort of professional romp through everything from, you know, John Cena meets the unicorn to, you know, the time I lost my front tooth to...

[7:01] Erica Halverson: At Taco Bell, right. It could be anything.

[7:31] Erica Halverson: So we have kids who care deeply about offering arts practices and programs to kids. We have a Madison Youth Arts Center, we have a performing arts center just for kids. There is now a Wisconsin Youth Symphony Orchestra building just for youth symphony. So we have a really rich...

[7:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Between Wisconsin and Minnesota, you guys are like at the forefront, right?

[7:55] Erica Halverson: Well, and Wisconsin is doing it on the least amount per capita of any state in the United States for arts funding. Minnesota is in the top five, and Wisconsin is at the bottom.

[8:10] Erica Halverson: So it is a very community-based and dedicated effort, and we are lucky to have some folks in the area who have money that they choose to spend on supporting the arts lives of young people.

[8:31] Erica Halverson: So in that world, I also am known sometimes to perform, and I have performed with a range of different companies, including our own Children's Theater of Madison that produces exclusively theater for young audiences.

[8:49] Erica Halverson: And so I've done my tour through a range of different shows, and A Year with Frog and Toad, hands down, my favorite.

[8:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, gosh, can't get a better introduction than that. That's so exciting. Here's a question that I have, because you've already talked about funding, and I'm really interested by this.

[9:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right now, I'm working on a production of Six, Teen Edition, and it's in Utah, and it's like a collaborative thing between six different high schools.

[9:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: They did a whole statewide audition process, and so there's a queen from each high school, which is so cool, right?

[9:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And they're going to perform it for the big Thespian Utah Theater Association Conference. It's really, really great.

[9:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But in doing so, I've been able to talk to so many of the educators, and Utah, while always all about family and children, are terrible at giving money to education.

[9:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And one of my friends was talking about how at her school, there's like the golf team, and I have nothing against sports. In fact, I'm quite pro sports. But the golf team has eight players, and there is a coach and two assistant coaches, all of whom are paid by the school.

[10:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then she just got done doing a production of Beauty and the Beast that used 140 students, and she didn't get any assistance. It was all her, and if she had a musical director or an assistant choreographer or whatever, she had to fund that through the community and then pay it out of her money.

[10:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, this seems absolutely bonkers to me, right? If simply on the spreadsheet of how many students are being used in these different school programs.

[10:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, I'm sure you have something to say on this, so I'd love to hear it.

[10:46] Erica Halverson: I have a lot of things to say.

[10:49] Erica Halverson: I think there is not ever enough money to provide.

[10:56] Erica Halverson: Right, right, right.

[10:58] Erica Halverson: So, okay, there's never enough money, period.

[11:00] Erica Halverson: Also, read current political climate, political context, right.

[11:04] Erica Halverson: But specifically with respect to education and with respect to public education, the arts have often been at the bottom of consideration for how schools distribute their resources.

[11:20] Erica Halverson: And obviously, we would like that to change. However, it has made us all incredibly scrappy and incredibly industrious with how we translate the resources we have into meaningful and impactful experiences for kids.

[11:40] Erica Halverson: Now, would I love for every high school theater program to have an endowment that could support everyone's participation? Of course.

[11:49] Erica Halverson: But absent that, I think as art makers, we understand that meaningful participation is not based on how much money you spend, but based on how you create opportunities for people to be a meaningful part of an artistic experience.

[12:12] Erica Halverson: And that's why we can get so many kids in, right? That are willing to just be, you know, fork and spoon on the left.

[12:19] Erica Halverson: Yeah, the podcast that I did with Jonathan Groff, he brought his elementary school music teacher, who's a remarkable human being.

[12:28] Erica Halverson: Already crying.

[12:29] Erica Halverson: I know.

[12:30] Erica Halverson: And she talked about something that I also think a lot about when I make art with any group, but young people in particular, which is how do you maximize the different ways of participation that are available so that kids can draw on the things that they know how to do and that they love to do while still stretching themselves in new and different ways?

[12:55] Erica Halverson: She called them the chord rappers.

[12:57] Erica Halverson: So the kids who would be sort of the AV support for her during their elementary school music choir concerts, because it was really important to her that everyone participate in a meaningful way.

[13:11] Erica Halverson: And kids who take real responsibility for the technology needed to make the concert run is a legitimate way to be involved and to be a key player in an artistic process.

[13:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[13:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's like if we can get across that thing to young people, which is these tools are the most vibrant ways that you can express yourself. And our job is to give you that.

[13:44] Erica Halverson: This is, this is so good because I've been part of organizations where there have been fundraisers and it's like, we need money for the children. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, we don't do crap for children. Like, I guess maybe we throw some tickets to them for, you know, but like it isn't just a talking point. When you break it down, there are people like you who are truly looking at how children learn, and how the arts allow the learning to sink in to like cellularly. So anyway, thank you for your work.

[14:26] Daniel Pelzig: Well, thank you.

[14:31] Erica Halverson: Let's talk a little bit about what Frog and Toad is based on. Did you read the books growing up?

[14:37] Daniel Pelzig: I did read the books growing up. They weren't in my like fave list, but when I was cast in the show and I went back and read, I was like, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I got this. I got it. Yeah. Frog and Toad had four books all by Arnold Lobel. Lobel? Lobel.

[14:55] Erica Halverson: The deli down the block from me growing up was called Lobel's. So I feel like I'm going to go with the like Upper East Side, you know, pronunciation.

[15:06] Daniel Pelzig: Well he was, okay. So he was born in Los Angeles in 1933, but spent most of his life on the East coast. So let's go with that. He married his wife at art school who was also a children's book writer. They had two kids. Funny enough, he was unable to make a living as an author. Go figure. So he had to work in advertising and he hated it. In the early eighties, fascinating life in the early eighties, he and his wife separate and he moved to Greenwich village where he met his partner Howard and then he ultimately passed away in 1987 due to complications with AIDS. Had no idea about all of this, but throughout his career he wrote these amazing books that like the show are minimalistic, relatable, thoughtful, and also really beautiful to look at. He was a beautiful illustrator.

[15:58] Erica Halverson: I never grew up reading Frog and Toad, but my grandma would always read us Prince Bertram the Bad and that is also an Arnold book. So he was a part of my childhood, but just not in terms of Frog and Toad. Now he said that with these two characters who are best friends, he said he always saw Frog and Toad as two sides of himself, which makes a lot of sense, right? Like one, how would you describe them?

[16:24] Daniel Pelzig: Frog is more optimistic, right? More dapper, maybe more free spirited and more outgoing, adventurous and Toad is both anxious and careful, but also very concerned about the wellbeing of others. Frog comes across sometimes as a little like a minute for me and Toad is very thoughtful and generous and mindful, but very anxious. And so Frog is sort of the one who ensures that they have adventures because if it was up to Toad, they would not have any adventures.

[17:11] Erica Halverson: Exactly. They just sit and drink tea. From what I understand, the show came about because of the daughter, Arnold Lobel's daughter who just happened to marry an actor in Marklyn Baker. He was in a lot of stuff, including the revival of Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum and Perfect Strangers.

[17:33] Daniel Pelzig: Also star of the 80s sitcom classic Perfect Strangers. How do you not lead with that?

[17:39] Erica Halverson: Lead with that one. It's true. It's true. I'm sure. Well, I wanted to give him theater creds first, but you're absolutely right. He's a great singer and an actor and many of us of a certain generation first encountered him as Balky Bartokomis' cousin in Perfect Strangers. Who might as well have been called Toad, like when you think about it. Also a little anxious. And so they kind of created the show. Now I want to go into a deeper dive about the creation of the show and for that we have a special guest. So I'm going to now pass it over to myself who in about a week or so, is going to talk with the original show's choreographer, the wonderful Daniel Pelzig. So let's listen to me talk to Danny.

[18:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All right. I am sitting with educator, director and choreographer Daniel Pelzig, the original Broadway choreographer of A Year with Frog and Toad. His other credits include 33 Variations on Broadway, starring the great Jane Fonda, as well as productions at the Kennedy Center, City Center Encores and countless operas and ballets. He's also just a crackerjack of a human being. Everybody, please welcome the great Danny Pelzig. Yay!

[18:54] Daniel Pelzig: My pleasure.

[18:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Danny, thank you for being here. All right. I know you as like this ballet opera guy. If you want to know anything about any opera or how to stage a ballet, I'm going to go to Danny Pelzig. So how did you find yourself in this children's show about A Frog and Toad?

[19:12] Daniel Pelzig: Well, listen, I had done a ton of musical theater before Frog and Toad popped up. I met David Petrarca, the director. We were on a negotiating committee at Society of Directors and Choreographers, which I was actively involved in. And so we were both on the committee together. And after a negotiating session, he said, I have this project. I'd love to talk to you about. And that's how it happened. And he invited me to be part of the process.

[19:45] Daniel Pelzig: And the show was created in the Midwest. I mean, we've the kind of theme of this episode is what incredible work is being done for children's theater in the Midwest. But is that where it was built?

[19:56] Daniel Pelzig: It was built at the Children's Theater Company of Minneapolis. It had a few readings and workshops, but it was first produced there by the artistic director of the theater, Peter Brocious, who actually just stepped down. I mean, CTC is like one of the great children's theaters, I think along with the Children's Theater of probably Seattle. It has a great budget. It's attached to the museum in Minneapolis. The museum has one half, the children's theater has the other. And it does four or five productions. They have a great infrastructure. They really believe in musical theater for children. And also theater is expensive. There have to be venues where families can afford to take children to theater. And in Minneapolis, the children's theater is exactly that.

[20:56] Erica Halverson: Is it really? They keep the prices low.

[20:58] Daniel Pelzig: And they offer really great subscriptions. They do 10 shows a week and they're always packed. It's an enormously successful theater.

[21:09] Erica Halverson: That's so cool. The books A Year with Frog and Toad were written by Arnold Lobel. His daughter Adrienne is a gorgeous set designer. She did a lot of the sets for Mark Morris.

[21:19] Daniel Pelzig: Isn't that incredible? I didn't realize that she had kind of inherited the artistic talent from her father and was so essential in the design of the show, not just the actual production.

[21:37] Daniel Pelzig: The original show is all Adrienne. And she brought her besties along with her. Costume designer Marty Pakladinas, who designed a whole bunch of my ballets at Boston Ballet, as well as Jim Ingles, who was the original lighting designer. He also designed a whole bunch of my ballets at Boston Ballet.

[21:58] Erica Halverson: Wow, so the show looked like a million bucks.

[22:01] Daniel Pelzig: The show looked like a million bucks. I'm not sure it cost a million bucks, but it did look like a million bucks.

[22:11] Erica Halverson: What's your belief system on children and theater? Not necessarily children in the theater, but children as an audience.

[22:21] Daniel Pelzig: The thing about Frog and Toad was that it's a show that has a great deal of appeal to children, but also a great deal of appeal to adults. It doesn't play down to kids. It's very smart. You can entertain the parent as well as the child. The lyrics are very, very smart. It's not a show that has children in it, but it's a show that actually tries to elevate the theatrical experience for kids.

[22:55] Erica Halverson: I love that, elevate the theatrical experience for children. Now, you guys go to Off-Broadway, so the whole thing is put together, great reviews, sold out, run.

[23:08] Daniel Pelzig: We went to the New Victory, which was a theater that actually presents programming for children, not exclusively, but I wouldn't actually call it Off-Broadway. I would just call it New Victory. It's on 42nd Street.

[23:24] Erica Halverson: Oh, fair enough. That was actually going to be the trajectory from the Children's Theater of Minneapolis to the New Victory. Before the run at the New Victory was over, they decided to bring it to Broadway.

[23:41] Daniel Pelzig: Which is interesting because you're already on 42nd Street.

[23:43] Erica Halverson: Yes. How did you feel about that?

[23:47] Daniel Pelzig: Oh, it was like my first Broadway credit. I thought it was fantastic.

[23:51] Erica Halverson: That's so cool. What theater did you go into?

[23:55] Daniel Pelzig: We went to The Court, which is no longer The Court.

[23:58] Erica Halverson: It was one of the smaller spaces, right?

[24:01] Daniel Pelzig: It was one of the smaller spaces, and it's actually a little off the beaten path. It often looks like as a cursed theater, that's where shows go to die. But one of the things that happened is it was going to move to Broadway, and then I was offered to choreograph a show at City Center Encores. They both happened at exactly the same time. I probably should have turned down the Encores gig, but I ended up getting friends of mine to assist on both projects, and I would rehearse up at City Center, and then I would rehearse down to 42nd Street, and then I would cab back and forth. This went on for like two to three weeks. I was juggling both shows at the same time.

[24:49] Erica Halverson: Oh, my gosh.

[24:51] Daniel Pelzig: A regular Cynthia Nixon.

[24:53] Erica Halverson: That's crazy.

[24:55] Daniel Pelzig: Yeah, that was crazy.

[24:57] Erica Halverson: Yes, I'm exactly like Cynthia Nixon.

[24:59] Daniel Pelzig: Exactly.

[25:01] Erica Halverson: That's what I mean, doppelganger. Here's the thing is that when I think of A Year with Frog and Toad, I think of it as a huge success because of what you were able to accomplish, because of Children's Theater, and yet it didn't run very long on Broadway, but sometimes Broadway serves as a huge launching point and wonderful platform for works, and if you hadn't been on Broadway, I'm not sure that A Year with Frog and Toad would be as well-known as it is.

[25:30] Daniel Pelzig: No, I mean, look, it didn't run very long on Broadway. It made it through the Tony Awards. I remember that performance. They did alone. Of course, I would have done Cookies or Get a Load of Toad. I would have done Enough Tempo. Great point. But that wasn't my call, and if it hadn't run on Broadway, it wouldn't have four million regional and theater for young audiences productions all over. So it actually launched it. I mean, the Reale Brothers and Adrian I'm sure get royalties from every production that's ever done.

[26:11] Erica Halverson: I hope so.

[26:13] Daniel Pelzig: But the creators do not. To be clear.

[26:15] Erica Halverson: Sorry, Danny. But, you know, David Petrarca, who was the original director, right after Frog and Toad, he went into film and TV, and he's actually spent the last 20 years traveling the world doing film and TV. I don't think he's ever done live theater again.

[26:37] Daniel Pelzig: He should. He's a brilliant director. It has such a beautiful flow to it, and I love the moments. Well, look, one thing that we all love about children's books aren't necessarily the words, but the illustrations, right? And in many ways, dance is a series of pictures that are telling a story in the same way that beautiful illustrations are in children's books. I mean, there's a lot of sequences, whether it's a little underwater ballet for the turtle or the leaves dance. Did you know how much dance was going to be a part of the show going into it, or did it reveal itself in the process?

[27:19] Daniel Pelzig: No, it was always part of it. I mean, the script was in very good shape. It was very clear where they needed choreographic work. Although, I have to say,

[27:30] Daniel Pelzig: Thank you so much for doing this with us and for being a part of Broadway History.

[27:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's such a unique and beautiful way. Talk about, like, Frog and Toad and then Jane Fonda. That's a career, baby. And they're both still kicking.

[28:12] Erica Halverson: Yay, Erica. Wasn't that a wonderful conversation?

[28:15] Daniel Pelzig: Fantastic. Multiple weeks from now, me is so thrilled to have gotten a chance to listen to that conversation. That's right.

[28:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, so let's now go into the show itself. A Year with Frog and Toad is exactly what it promises to be. It's a year with Frog and Toad. And right here from the get-go, this is the stuff that I love about children's theater.

[28:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, sorry, I'm going to go on a quick tangent here. I was working at an elementary school a couple weeks ago and just doing an after-school music program. And it was right before Thanksgiving, so the kids were not going to be down for a lesson about solfege. You know what I'm saying? So I was like, okay, we're going to do dance party. And I was DJing, and they could tell me what songs to play. And the fourth graders kept coming up to me and being like, can you play Bye Bye Bye? I was like, oh, yeah, cool. They know NSYNC. That's great. So then I put Bye Bye Bye on, and then they would come and ask for another song. And I soon realized that they were asking for all of the songs that were in Deadpool Wolverine, this Marvel movie that's incredibly violent and very crude. But funny and delightful. Is that a bad thing for me to say?

[29:30] Daniel Pelzig: No, no, 100%.

[29:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But suddenly I was like, you guys, have you seen Deadpool Wolverine? And they were like, yeah. And I was a little disturbed because these are the same boys who cry when they don't win in musical chairs. I'm like, if you can't play musical chairs and not break down emotionally, I don't know if you're mature enough to take on Deadpool Wolverine and these violent sequences. I don't know. That's just kind of how I feel. But when I go to a show like this with A Year with Frog and Toad, I'm seeing like these weird things that we don't talk about anymore, like how seeds grow from earth and how seasons and how time is like kind of a natural thing. And I'm like, these are the things that I want deeply planted to not make a pun into the minds and souls of children. They understand that life is full of cycles. And I don't know if those are the types of stories we really tell anymore. I don't know. I know that was a huge tangent, but do you get what I'm saying?

[30:33] Erica Halverson: No, it wasn't. I absolutely do.

[30:35] Erica Halverson: And the thing that I think is so great about these stories, and then therefore the musical, is that they have those big, important life themes interwoven with very local themes that really matter. Like, there's a lot of bullying stories in this show. And look, kids can smell when you're not earnest. And there's lots of those versions of those stories that are not earnest. And these are very earnest, real ideas. Yes, they're all played by animals. I love to dress up like an animal. The sort of anthropomorphizing of animals as a way to talk about hard things I think is super developmentally appropriate for kids.

[31:25] Erica Halverson: And the things you talk about have to be real things. There's a song in the show. I don't remember the exact context, but what makes you think that I was unhappy?

[31:38] Daniel Pelzig: Yes, the alone one.

[31:40] Erica Halverson: Yes. Absolutely. I love being a frog in the warm summer evening.

[31:47] Daniel Pelzig: Beautiful voice, Erica, honestly.

[31:49] Erica Halverson: Thank you.

[31:50] Daniel Pelzig: It's so earnest. And if it's played with care, it's not cheesy. Because everybody goes through, what does it mean to really know how to be alone? And to know that even when you are alone, you have people. People thinking about you, hoping you're well. And actually, for people that don't know the show, when it was written to be played exclusively by adults, it's a five-person show. There's Frog and Toad, and then there are three other adults who play all the other roles in the show. Sometimes there are turtles or birds or moles or mice. And in the TYA version, we performed the full show, but a TYA version of the full show. But regardless, often what they do is children will play some of those roles.

[32:48] Erica Halverson: So the production that I was in, there was a Frog and a Toad, and then three adults. And we played all of the kind of main, quote-unquote, main other roles. But then the kids, there were actually young women, like middle school, early high school young women, who played the birds. And then littles playing moles and squirrels and various other things. And so that also becomes an opportunity for learning. And I always say to other actors who step into that, if you want to play a role in a TYA show, you kind of have to be interested in being a teacher also. Because you're working alongside young actors who are learning, what does it mean to tell stories? And why do we tell stories in this way? And how do you contribute to this storytelling in a way that's unique to you and isn't about what I'm doing?

I love that stuff because it becomes communal in a way. Like theater is always social. And when you do a children's production or a high school production, one of the main components is the social, right? The social rewards of working together. But you mix multiple generations into a production and now it's community, right? Now it's a true communal experience with different levels of wisdom and all playing into not only the art, but the process of creating the art, which I think is just kind of divine, you know?

[34:31] Daniel Pelzig: So the show begins, we're coming out of hibernation. The show both begins and ends with this hibernation sequence. And the first thing we hear from are these birds, these pesky birds, who went away for the winter and now they have come back. And singing in just like the tightest, most beautiful three-part harmony. And they introduce us to Toad and Frog, who are, you know, currently dreaming because they're hibernating. And we see what's in their dreams, which I love this idea so much. When we see what's going on in their dreams, they're singing about each other because they can't wait to like wake up and have more adventures. Adorable!

[35:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And this leads to them, you know, eventually waking up. Now, when push comes to shove, Frog is ready to go with Spring. He's up and at them. Toad? Blerg. Once again, incredibly relatable. That's what he says. Blerg.

[35:26] Daniel Pelzig: Blerg.

[35:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He can't get out of bed. Even when his alarm clock goes off, he takes his shoe and smashes it, right? And this kind of right from the get-go sets up this dynamic of Frog being like, let's go, let's go, let's go. And Toad being like, I think I'd rather stay in bed. Toad ultimately does get out of bed because Frog tricks him. And in this, you know, introduction to Spring, Toad decides that he wants to plant a garden. And he plants the seeds and then he's told that the seeds will sprout, but he wants to know when. And he can't like set a timer because he smashed the clock. There's just this like, I don't understand time. I don't understand how long this is going to take. And can I do anything to hurry it up? I can't think of anything more relatable to childhood.

[36:20] Erica Halverson: It's true. Are we there yet? I mean, all of those things. You just don't understand expectation in time and the discomfort of that. And when you're a little bit older, your need to grow up and, you know, your need to be.

[36:40] Daniel Pelzig: Plant something and grow something independently.

[36:42] Erica Halverson: Yes. Yes, exactly right. And, you know, there's a little of that too in here, right? This sort of coming of ageness of it all. And I actually remember when we did the show with some of the older kids, we did talk about who are Frog and Toad? Are they besties? Are they romantic with each other? They're adults. And so, you know, a friendship like theirs is very intimate. And the older kids kind of wanted, not that they wanted to turn it into some, you know, lurid love story. But they were, like, interested in, like, what is this relationship? And the same thing about, like, the push to grow up and, you know, Toad's impatience being both. Like you're saying, I think that's absolutely right, with Littles in the local of, like, when are we going to get there? When is this going to happen? And then with older kids, like, when is it my turn? When do I get to make choices for myself? When is it my garden to grow, to steal from Candide?

[37:44] Daniel Pelzig: And really sweet thing is Toad ends up doing different things. He sings for the seeds to try and get them to grow. He plays the tuba. He screams at them and then fears that he has upset them and they won't grow. But what Toad does after he, you know, does all of his playing and singing and everything, he falls asleep. And then Frog comes back and wakes him up and says, Toad, are you okay? He's like, yeah, yeah, I'm just bummed because my seeds aren't growing. And as he's been asleep, they've, you know, started to grow. Once again, just like that element of time, when you're not thinking about it, when you're asleep, when time has passed and you're no longer worried about it is maybe when the growth happens. And when you put in the work, when you put in the work, you see the results. I mean, it's also that sort of thing, right?

[38:38] Erica Halverson: Yeah, yeah.

[38:39] Daniel Pelzig: And how delighted he is that they've grown. So happy, so happy.

[38:44] Erica Halverson: Now, Toad, like we mentioned, he isn't just a worrywart. He's also incredibly generous. And there are a lot of opportunities in which they are helping each other out. For example, Toad is sad because he never gets mail.

[39:03] Daniel Pelzig: Do you like getting mail still? You know? Do you ever think about it?

[39:06] Erica Halverson: I love getting the mail. It's kind of my favorite.

[39:11] Daniel Pelzig: My husband loves getting the mail.

[39:15] Erica Halverson: I get it. I get it.

[39:16] Daniel Pelzig: Well, Toad's the same. He loves to get the mail. He never gets a letter, though. And so Frog is like, oh, well, I'll fix that. I will write him a letter. And unfortunately, he gives it to Snail to deliver.

[39:28] Erica Halverson: The snail with the mail.

[39:30] Daniel Pelzig: Snail mail. And he has this great little song. All of these songs, 20s, 30s, 40s, like very classic Americana, right? And so there's like a lot of banjo sometimes and really fun classic sounds. They're super fun to sing.

[39:48] Erica Halverson: Absolutely. Hummable earworms.

[39:51] Daniel Pelzig: Snail has this kind of reprise because it takes him basically the entire show to deliver this letter.

[39:58] Erica Halverson: And then he gets the 11 o'clock number.

[40:00] Daniel Pelzig: And he gets the 11 o'clock number.

[40:02] Erica Halverson: I'm coming out of my shell.

[40:04] Daniel Pelzig: That's so stupid.

[40:08] Erica Halverson: It's so stupid in the best possible way. Like, I love a good wordplay.

[40:14] Daniel Pelzig: Love.

[40:15] Erica Halverson: Love, love. I'm coming out of my shell. Here I am, world. Let's see. What else happens in spring? Get a load of Toad where Toad's really insecure about getting out of the, you know, going swimming at the swimming hole because he thinks he looks stupid in a bathing suit. In addition to kind of the bullying issues is the resilience of Toad because it's almost like the insecurity breeds more insecurity. Like, he didn't need to be worried about looking weird in a bathing suit. Because the more that he says it, the more everybody believes it before they've even seen him in a bathing suit. And ultimately, at the very end, he gets out. And they all go, yeah, you do look kind of weird. And he survives.

[41:00] Daniel Pelzig: And that's the end.

[41:01] Erica Halverson: Yeah.

[41:02] Daniel Pelzig: Resilience.

[41:03] Erica Halverson: You survived. Even with all of that.

[41:05] Daniel Pelzig: Even with an entire production number.

[41:07] Erica Halverson: Yeah, you do look kind of weird. It's fine.

[41:10] Daniel Pelzig: Yeah, the production number gets sort of carried away, right?

[41:15] Daniel Pelzig: At the end, they've like, they've done this huge thing. And then they're like, what? What were we singing about? Oh, yeah. Oh, it's kind of weird. Whatever. Yeah, whatever. Because now we're talking about bananas, banana fruits, and whatever roots, everything that rhymes with bathing suit, right? Like you said, you've gone off the rails and talked about all of these other things. After spring, of course, comes summer, unless like you live in 2024. And then... We need a sequel of like Frog and Toad in the year of the storm cyclone or whatever, where there's like a major weather event. Thank you. Yeah. Right after spring comes hurricane season. But in summer, we have alone time, which is Frog, you know, who while being incredibly adventurous, likes to just go out and sit on a log and have time to himself.

And Toad is incredibly worried about that, and swims out with sandwiches and iced tea. But unfortunately, they all get wet. And when he comes over to Frog, he's like, I was so worried about you. You wanted to be alone. And once again, just so earnestly, Frog's like, Oh, well, I like to be alone because I like to reflect on how happy I am. It makes me cry. It's so sweet. And then it makes me so happy to see you because then I remember that I have you too. That I have a friend. He's like, but my sandwiches are soggy. And he's like, that's okay. Oh, my gosh. Froggy sandwich. I know. A soggy froggy sandwich. I think probably the most popular part of the show, and I can imagine kids going crazy for this is the cookie song.

Oh, yes. Because Toad happens to be an incredible baker. And once again, being very generous, wants to share his cookies with everybody, including his bestie Frog. And the cookies are so good that everybody goes kooky eating the cookies, operating on this sugar rush that will not quit. It has to be super fun to perform, but also once again, very relatable. My sister was just talking about her son, who is a big donut fan. And she had bought like a box of donuts. And he's kindergarten. And he was allowed to have one donut. And she came back and he had had three and like three donuts with a little munchkin of a kid. That is a lot of sugar. And the song is perfect, right? Because they're like, you know, and they're like, well, maybe we should stop.

Let's have more. Even the birds are like, I don't know if we should have cookies, because honestly, worms are from the earth and they're a little healthier. And so maybe we should have those first. And they're like, you know, I'll have a couple cookies. And then they try them and they're like, oh, my God, these are the best. That's how the first act ends. It's so, so freaking cute.

[44:10] Daniel Pelzig: The second act begins, we're still in summer, but toward the end of summer with the whole kite, which I love that both Charlie Brown and Frog and Toad have an entire sequence dedicated to kite flying. You can kind of imagine what happens where they're trying to get the kite to fly. It's not all of the birds are making fun of them. I think it's still the birds. And then kind of like you said, with the whole bullying thing, when the kite finally goes in the air, they're like, oh, yeah, I guess they were right. And then that's kind of it. Nobody gets their hand slapped or no one's punished or anything, but they're just kind of made to be like, oh, huh. Yeah, I guess we were wrong. Let's move on.

[44:49] Erica Halverson: Yeah, you know, that's a really good point. It's I think we imagine children's stories to be very moralistic, you know, where the moral of the story is, you know, don't second guess your friends because but there's none of that, which I think is quite lovely that the stories are just what they are.

[45:08] Daniel Pelzig: Yeah. Yeah. And that's how children are. And that's how humans should be. But it is certainly how children are. Right. You get it. You have a big fight with your friend and then you're like, move on.

[45:18] Erica Halverson: Yeah, exactly. Same, you know, fourth grader little boys will slug each other and then five minutes later be totally fine. I don't know how they do it, but it's incredible.

[45:31] Daniel Pelzig: We're now into fall. Fall brings leaves. Oh, this is such a great story where Frog and Toad see that each other's house has all of the leaves that have fallen for fall. And so they want to do a service project for each other, a little bit of charity. So they decide to, unbeknownst to each other, they're going to secretly rake all of the leaves. It's a really fun dance sequence that I'm sure Danny did a great job in New York. And they rake up all of the leaves and then feel so good about themselves. Now on their way back to their own homes, squirrels see the piles of leaves and realize, oh my gosh, it would be so fun to play in those. They do. The leaves get scattered all over the place again.

And so when Frog and Toad are right back to their own homes, they go, oh, I really should probably rake my leaves now too. And like, I guess that's no good deed goes unpunished, but like it feels a little bit more gentle. And at the end of the day, you still get the satisfaction of doing something nice for someone, even if at the end of the day, right, it didn't pan out exactly as you wanted.

[46:45] Erica Halverson: I think that's the point, right? I think the point is you don't do something for someone else because you expect something good in return. You do something good for someone else because that makes you feel good. And you know that you've done something for them. And of course the joke here is it doesn't actually do anything for them because the squirrels mess it up. But the, you know, the idea is you should just do it because it feels good to do something nice for somebody you care about, not because you want them to rake your leaves.

[47:13] Daniel Pelzig: Yeah. And it's also okay that when you're doing the nice thing for somebody that it kind of hurts your back and you get a little tired and you're like, oh, did I really want to do this? But at the end of it is the satisfaction of doing it.

[47:33] Erica Halverson: Also in Fall is this scary story. Tell me what you think this one's about because basically Frog tells Toad a super scary story about a big, tall, terrible frog.

[47:44] Daniel Pelzig: Well, so first of all, right, we talked about how Toad has a lot of anxieties and he does not like to be scared, which I can completely sympathize with. I hate being scared. I don't even like, I never even liked...

[47:56] Erica Halverson: You're not a scary movie fan or anything?

[47:59] Daniel Pelzig: No, I never even liked Tag growing up because I did not like to be chased. Just did not like... Just the sensation of... Yep, that adrenaline is not for me. So totally sympathize. And my understanding is that these different scenes are the different four books that then the writers sort of strung together, right? So this is a book in the Frog and Toad series, right? A scene somewhere within the books.

[48:29] Erica Halverson: And I mean, I think it is about facing our fears. And I think Frog thinks it's important for Toad to face whatever it is that feels scary for him. So he tells him kind of a scary story. And depending on how you stage it, it can be a little bit scary for littles. I'm sure if you use the right lighting and everything, I could see it being... The music's a little spooky. And what's interesting is Frog is telling it in the first person. Like, this happened to me when I was little.

[49:01] Daniel Pelzig: Right, right. I mean, I think it's about facing your fears. And if you think of Frog and Toad, as you were saying at the beginning, as like one person, that's an interesting way to read that, right? Is like the push-pull between us of like, oh, my God, this thing is really hard for me. I should try to figure out how to work through it. Or if you think of it as two people, and this friendship of a person who doesn't have those same fears, helping his friend walk through something that's really hard. And because it is first person saying, see, I survived. And Toad keeps asking, like, did this really happen to you? And Frog never says like...

[49:46] Erica Halverson: He says, maybe yes, maybe no.

[49:49] Daniel Pelzig: And he leaves it at that.

[49:51] Erica Halverson: Yeah. And it's a little mischievous, right, that way too.

[49:55] Daniel Pelzig: Or maybe one of the reasons he is unafraid is because this actually happened. I got to play the mama frog in that. And we did like terrible opera voices, you know, because they're like, it's sort of gothic and scary. So we were like, oh, good, this is an opportunity for bad opera voice. Let's warm up the coloratura.

[50:18] Erica Halverson: One of my favorite parts of that little story is that the way that he defeats the big terrible frog is, okay, so this big bad frog likes to eat little frogs, but he just got done eating a lot of little frogs. And so he needs to like do some exercise to like, you know, get hungry again. So he has the little frog in the story help him jump rope. And then the little frog uses the rope to tie him to the tree and then escape. The fact that this big villain was like, you know what, let's take a moment. I'm just going to do a few calisthenics.

[50:49] Daniel Pelzig: Yeah, a little calisthenics. Get the heart rate up. The meta story of a kid literally tying up his fears and leaving them behind and escaping, right? So there's multiple layers to how you can understand what facing your fear looks like.

[51:11] Erica Halverson: Oh, love it. Love it. All right. So fall of course leads to winter and we have the whole sledding.

[51:20] Daniel Pelzig: Playing a mole is so fun.

[51:24] Erica Halverson: Because the birds are gone.

[51:25] Daniel Pelzig: The birds are gone. The birds flew south for the winter.

[51:28] Erica Halverson: Yep. So they're the moles. One of the things that's really fun about these kind of shows is that you do end up playing a million characters and the kids end up playing a million characters. And so we were all moles. And of course, right in the story, Toad is afraid of sledding. Frog encourages him to like sled down the hill. But we were prepping during dress rehearsal and one of the littlest girls, I think this was her first show, was on the wrong side of the stage for an entrance. It was like a dress rehearsal and I was sort of looking around and I thought, oh, where's Mariela? And I walked around to the other side and there she was. I said, Mariela, come on. We're coming on from this side.

And she just looked up at me. She had like little Cindy Lou Who, like little Afro puffs in her head. She's like eight years old. And we had these crazy mole glasses on. So we all looked like we had tiny eyes. And she just looked up at me and she said, it's just so many things to remember.

[52:30] Daniel Pelzig: And I said, Mariela, you have just unlocked being in theater. That's the whole thing. That never goes away, babe.

[52:38] Erica Halverson: If you can remember all the things, you are nailing it.

[52:43] Daniel Pelzig: It's just so many things.

[52:46] Erica Halverson: Like she was so, she wasn't mad about it. She was just like, it's just so many things. Like now I have to remember what side of the stage to come on. I already have the mole costume on. Have you seen these glasses? What do I need to do?

[53:05] Daniel Pelzig: So at this sledding thing, once again, about facing your fears, I think, Toad is convinced to go sledding and he goes down the hill and frog kind of falls off, falls away. And so Toad's now all by himself. And isn't it the mole who says, oh, Toad will be fine as long as he doesn't go to the left and then goes to the left. And so now, of course, Toad is on a harrowing sleigh ride, but once again, survives.

[53:34] Erica Halverson: Yeah, I think he even says it was fun at the end, even though it's like, you know, crazy and he falls off and gets all snowy. I think he enjoys himself.

[53:43] Daniel Pelzig: Let's do it again. Exactly. There's that roller coaster sort of thing. I wrote it with closing my eyes, but I want to do it again. And maybe this time I open my eyes.

[53:51] Erica Halverson: That leads us to Christmas presents. See, I knew there was a reason we were doing this in December.

[53:57] Daniel Pelzig: Perfect.

[53:58] Erica Halverson: It's a Christmas show.

[54:01] Daniel Pelzig: A holiday show.

[54:03] Erica Halverson: Oh, excuse me. Apologies.

[54:05] Daniel Pelzig: But there's the song Merry Almost Christmas, which is really sweet. A lot of worrying, a lot of projecting once again from Toad. I heard once from a friend who was studying to be a psychologist that he had always been in his relationship with his partner. He had always been the one that like really connected to children and who children connected to like they would just naturally come to him. And he never knew why. And then he realized that he has so much anxiety and that being a child is such an anxious thing that the children tend to recognize that in the adults, right? Adults who are very confident aren't always the most relatable to children. Anyway, and I thought, I'm like, what a cool superpower for those that still maybe just feel like they can't.

[54:59] Erica Halverson: And Daniel Pelzig are co-founders and co-producers of Frog and Toad, which is a musical theatre podcast.

[55:59] Daniel Pelzig: Yes, and we’re excited to be here to talk about A Year with Frog and Toad.

[56:06] Erica Halverson: Absolutely! It’s such a unique show with a rich history.

[56:07] Daniel Pelzig: It really is. The way it blends storytelling and music is just delightful.

[56:14] Erica Halverson: And it’s also a great example of how musicals can resonate with both children and adults.

[56:21] Daniel Pelzig: Exactly! The themes are universal, and the characters are so relatable.

[56:33] Erica Halverson: Plus, the creative team behind it brought a lot of heart and humor to the project.

[56:44] Daniel Pelzig: Yes, and I think that’s what makes it stand out in the realm of Theatre for Young Audiences.

[56:53] Erica Halverson: Definitely! It’s not just a kids' show; it has layers that appeal to all ages.

[57:03] Daniel Pelzig: And the music is so catchy! It really enhances the storytelling.

[57:13] Erica Halverson: I love how each song captures the essence of the characters and their journey.

[57:24] Daniel Pelzig: Right! It’s a perfect blend of narrative and melody.

[57:34] Erica Halverson: And let’s not forget about the visual elements. The design is so charming.

[57:44] Daniel Pelzig: Absolutely! The costumes and set design really bring the world of Frog and Toad to life.

[57:54] Erica Halverson: It’s a testament to how important collaboration is in theatre.

[58:04] Daniel Pelzig: Yes, every aspect works together to create a cohesive experience.

[58:16] Erica Halverson: And that’s what makes it such a beloved show in the musical theatre canon.

[58:26] Daniel Pelzig: For sure! It’s a great example of how musicals can be both entertaining and meaningful.

[58:38] Erica Halverson: And it opens up conversations about friendship and the changing seasons of life.

[58:48] Daniel Pelzig: Exactly! Those themes are so relatable, no matter your age.

[59:00] Erica Halverson: And the humor is just delightful. It keeps the audience engaged.

[59:10] Daniel Pelzig: Yes, it’s clever and witty, which makes it enjoyable for everyone.

[59:22] Erica Halverson: I think that’s why it has such a lasting impact on audiences.

[59:32] Daniel Pelzig: Definitely! It’s a show that people remember fondly.

[59:44] Erica Halverson: And it’s great to see how it continues to be produced in various theatres.

[59:54] Daniel Pelzig: Yes, it’s a testament to its timelessness and appeal.

[1:00:06] Erica Halverson: I hope more people discover it and appreciate its charm.

[1:00:16] Daniel Pelzig: Me too! It deserves all the love it gets.

[1:00:28] Erica Halverson: And I think it’s important to highlight the contributions of the Midwest in musical theatre.

[1:00:38] Daniel Pelzig: Absolutely! The roots of this show are deeply embedded in that community.

[1:00:50] Erica Halverson: It’s fascinating to see how regional theatre influences Broadway.

[1:01:00] Daniel Pelzig: Yes, and A Year with Frog and Toad is a perfect example of that connection.

[1:01:12] Erica Halverson: It really showcases the talent and creativity that comes from the Midwest.

[1:01:22] Daniel Pelzig: And it’s inspiring to see how those influences shape the stories we tell.

[1:01:34] Erica Halverson: Exactly! It’s all about celebrating those voices and perspectives.

[1:01:44] Daniel Pelzig: And that’s what makes the theatre community so vibrant and diverse.

[1:01:56] Erica Halverson: I couldn’t agree more! It’s a beautiful tapestry of stories and experiences.

[1:02:06] Daniel Pelzig: And A Year with Frog and Toad is a wonderful thread in that tapestry.

[1:02:18] Erica Halverson: Yes, it’s a show that brings people together and sparks joy.

[1:02:28] Daniel Pelzig: And that’s what we need more of in the world today.

[1:02:40] Erica Halverson: Absolutely! Theatre has the power to connect us all.

[1:02:50] Daniel Pelzig: And A Year with Frog and Toad does that in such a delightful way.

[1:03:02] Erica Halverson: It’s a reminder of the importance of friendship and community.

[1:03:12] Daniel Pelzig: Yes, and it encourages us to embrace the simple joys in life.

[1:03:24] Erica Halverson: And that’s a message that resonates with everyone.

[1:03:34] Daniel Pelzig: For sure! It’s a timeless story that will continue to be cherished.

[1:03:46] Erica Halverson: I can’t wait to see how future generations interpret it.

[1:03:56] Daniel Pelzig: Yes, it will be exciting to see its evolution over time.

[1:04:08] Erica Halverson: And I hope it continues to inspire young artists and audiences alike.

[1:04:18] Daniel Pelzig: Absolutely! It’s a show that has so much to offer.

[1:04:30] Erica Halverson: And it’s a joy to celebrate its legacy today.

[1:04:40] Daniel Pelzig: Yes, here’s to many more years of Frog and Toad!

[1:04:52] Erica Halverson: Cheers to that!