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[0:00] Mike Meaney: I would have liked to have seen Bob Fosse direct and choreograph this show, because that's right when he was on The Up and Up, and he would have been able to handle the cynicism. The dances, you know, would have been... The dances would have been sick. And I just kept thinking, this would have been, out of all of the Sondheim canon, this is the one I feel like Fosse could have done rather than, you know, Hal Prince or James Lapine. Wow. A Fosse-Sondheim collab. And now that's all I can think about, is if I had a time machine, I'd be like, hey, let Fosse do it and see what happens. Let's let Fosse do it. Oh my gosh!

[0:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to A Musical Theatre Podcast, where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we're discussing the musical ANYONE CAN WHISTLE, which was a listener request. Believe it or not, I'm not forcing you to listen to this episode without prior requests from listeners. Our listener request was from Jessica, who wrote in and said, quote, I was wondering if you ever had any requests for ANYONE CAN WHISTLE. The answer is no, but now we do. Thank you, Jessica. It might never be a big commercial hit, but Cora has been such a great vehicle over the years for legends such as Madeline Kahn and Donna Murphy.

Let's throw Angela Lansbury in there. I think it and those performances in particular deserve a little more attention. Madeline and Donna, both forces of nature, always deserve more attention. Plus, while the story may be a little too quirky for mainstream, the songs are still great. Unquote. Jessica, thank you for that great email. I appreciate you. I am a Madeline Kahn stan. I mean, and Donna Murphy, nothing wrong there. So I am more than willing to give a little time to those wonderful ladies. Here's the thing. It's always a pleasure to do an episode about Sondheim, right? Especially in a month, by the way, when we have a special Sondheim episode on Patreon! And especially this show that is full of incredible songs.

Everybody says don't. Everybody says don't. Everybody says don't. And a totally bonkers plot that I can't wait to explore with our special guest who came prepared. Okay, everyone? He's done his homework. He understood the brief, the assignment, and he's here, and I'm very grateful. He's been an associate director for various projects off-Broadway and in New York, including Do Re Mi, which I love. It's not the first time I've said that on this show. He has a master's in theater and is a proud musical theater nerd. Everyone, please welcome Mike Meaney! Hello! Yay! Good morning, Mike.

[2:54] Mike Meaney: Good morning.

[2:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I want to tell you, just to begin, about when I first learned about Anyone Can Whistle, and then I want to hear when you first learned about Anyone Can Whistle. Fair enough?

[3:05] Mike Meaney: Sounds great.

[3:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, so my mom, a computer teacher at a junior high for like 30 years, and I'm old enough that a decent internet connection that wasn't dial-up was like novel, right? So, if I was at her school on one of the IBMs going to town, the thing I was looking up were just like lists of musicals, and they would have them all in alphabetical order. So, guess what you see pretty close to the top of the list, right? So, I'm just like going through the list, clicking in, reading brief synopses, and on Anyone Can Whistle, I don't even know who Sondheim is at this point, but from a pretty early age, I knew that Anyone Can Whistle was about a town that faked a miracle, and that's a pretty good pitch.

[4:00] Mike Meaney: Yeah. It totally gets my attention right from the get.

[4:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, I knew about Anyone Can Whistle, but then it took quite a few years to understand that a lot of the Sondheim songs that I ended up really loving were actually from this show that was a total flop, and honestly hasn't seen a revival, like a major Broadway revival, since it appeared in like, what, 1960? What are we talking, 64?

[4:20] Mike Meaney: 64, yeah.

[4:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All right, so that's kind of my brief intro. How about you? When did you hear about this thing?

[4:27] Mike Meaney: I weirdly remember exactly when I was introduced to Anyone Can Whistle, because I used to go to Barnes & Noble, and I'd go to their show tunes section, and I would just—

[4:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We are of the same cloth.

[4:41] Mike Meaney: So, yeah, and just buy everything, you know, and at the same time, this was when I was in high school, and I was working at a different record store and, you know, spending my money at that record store and then going to a record store at a different place and buying even more cast albums. It's pretty much my paycheck was exclusively for cast albums, and I remember being 18 years old and having my driver's license and being able to drive to the Barnes & Noble across town, and I was in the store going through, and I remember being sucked in by the cover art. I was like, this looks cool. What is this?

[5:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, cover art, an interesting way into a show. I love that.

[5:25] Mike Meaney: And at that point, I knew the bulk of Sondheim, I feel like. I was 18 years old when this was, and I was like, oh! I mean, you're 18. You have the entire discography of—

[5:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I should know Anyone Can Whistle at this point, you know, really. Let's be honest.

[5:42] Mike Meaney: But I was like, oh, this sounds cool, and then I, you know, immediately put it in my car as I'm, you know, having a nice little joyride, and I remember just being like, oh, this music's fantastic. I wonder what the deal is, and then, you know, going home and be like, oh, that's what the deal is with this show.

[5:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This story is bananas.

[6:00] Mike Meaney: Yeah.

[6:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You know, hearing Simple for the first time and just being like, why is there a 14-minute song in the middle of this thing? And then, like, getting the whole—being able to, like, read the liner notes and all of that and realizing how it fits in, because it's just, it takes you, it just throws you off hearing it for the first time because it's just so massive and so much is going on during it.

[6:20] Mike Meaney: And I would also say, like, even structurally, you're kind of thrown off right from the get, because you get to this huge, huge song that feels like it's the end of the first act, but then you look at the track list and you're like, wait, we're only, like, a third of the way through, and that's when you realize there's three acts.

[6:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[6:37] Mike Meaney: Right? So just structurally, this thing is meant to feel unlike anything else.

[6:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Totally. And it's, I think it's probably the second to last three-act musical. Like, I'm sure there's others, but I can't really think of anything other than The Apple Tree that was written after Anyone Can Whistle that uses a three-act structure. And even then with The Apple Tree, it's because it's three one-acts, so it makes sense to be a three-act show where this one just, it makes it a little disjointed. And I was reading that they, at one point, tried to switch it back to a two-act show, but there just wasn't enough time. And so they just went, it's a three-act, I guess, and left it at that.

[7:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's crazy. Okay. Now, I know that you told me you did a lot of research, probably more than one needs to in their lifetime, about Anyone Can Whistle. So where are you going for this info? Because I did my own, but I want to hear where you went.

[7:33] Mike Meaney: Oh, he points to the library behind him. I have a ton of books, and that was the main point for me. Of course, I have my Sondheim, you know, the Finishing the Hat. And Peter Felicia, who's a theater historian, is fantastic. He wrote a whole book about the season that had Anyone Can Whistle, Funny Girl, Hello, Dolly, and it's all focused on that. And that was a huge point of my research because he called the book The Great Parade because there's so many musicals with parades that season, or songs about parades.

[8:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: 100%? Oh my gosh, I didn't even think about that. Hello, Dolly, at the very least, the most famous parade of all time.

[8:17] Mike Meaney: Hello, Dolly, and then Funny Girl, and then Here's Love, the Miracle on 34th Street.

[8:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, Miracle on 34th Street.

[8:24] Mike Meaney: Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade is in that as well. And then in Anyone Can Whistle, there's a parade in town.

[8:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, that's so crazy. Okay, let's go to the history of this. Let's start with Mr. Sondheim, right? Because in my adult life, this show has always felt to me like something you would write right out of college.

[8:44] Mike Meaney: Sure.

[8:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right? Where you're like, enough of Rodgers and Hammerstein traditions of Golden Age Musical Theater. We are going to give you something different. We are going to show people what the art form can really do. And then you write something that about halfway through, you go, oh, there's a reason why we should probably just stick to the von Trapps being chased by Nazis. And yeah, when you look at Sondheim's career, let's just start with 57, which is West Side Story. So he's already done West Side Story, which he did with Arthur Lawrence, who wrote the book for Anyone Can Whistle. He did Gypsy in 1959, also with Arthur Lawrence, writing the book. So these collaborators have written two of the most famous, most well-constructed musicals ever. Then he follows that up with, at least on Broadway, with A Funny Thing Happened on the Way of the Forum in 1962, which was this huge, I mean, one of his biggest commercial hits.

[9:48] Mike Meaney: I think it's one of his longest running original, if not the longest.

[9:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Maybe the longest. Absolutely pure comedy. So then after those three, then we're getting to Anyone Can Whistle. So it's not like they had this kind of cool kid in class sort of thing. They had done the thing and honestly earned every right to try something different.

[10:14] Mike Meaney: Yeah, it's like they went from being the kid in the front of the classroom who knows all the answers to the kid in the back of the classroom. And it's usually the opposite.

[10:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, exactly. So what do you think was going on for them? Because this isn't really based on anything in particular.

[10:29] Mike Meaney: No, it's one of the rare original, original musicals.

[10:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is always difficult to do. And then on top of that, it's definitely taking influences from Absurdist theater, which I don't know. You got the masters. Do you want to talk to us about Absurdist theater?

[10:48] Mike Meaney: Um, I mean, it was a big movement around this time in the late 50s, early 60s with Becca and Ionesco. And these, you know, Waiting For Godot or Rhinoceros and where convention was just thrown. Yes, just thrown completely out the window in terms of just structure and things like that. And it's a whole can of worms that I don't know if it's worth opening when talking about Anyone Can Whistle.

[11:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But also, the point is to break free of conventions.

[11:24] Mike Meaney: Yes.

[11:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In order to explore things in a different way.

[11:27] Mike Meaney: Yes. And I feel like it's a step past satire, where we're not poking fun at it so much as just totally ripping it to shreds. And I think it makes sense that, you know, Absurdism in musicals, I don't think necessarily works well. And that's how we get the concept musical, where it kind of seems like a sidestep to that, where let's focus on an idea rather than a plot and have that be the focal point. And which it makes sense that, you know, Sondheim would go into, you know, perfect that with, you know, Company and Follies.

[12:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: 100%. I can't help but feel that one of the other reasons why it doesn't always work is because to do a full evening of Absurdism in a musical requires us as an audience to listen to people sing their feelings that aren't necessarily connected to anything authentic.

[12:19] Mike Meaney: Sure. And that's such a problem because, like, that's the core of musical theater is my emotions are at such a point that I need to express it through song. And it's just kind of antithetical to that in Absurdism, I feel like.

[12:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. That being said, I think then Anyone Can Whistle maybe goes more satire.

[12:40] Mike Meaney: I would agree. And even that satire is really difficult tonally to get right in a musical.

[12:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And maintain.

[12:48] Mike Meaney: Yes. And, you know, George Kaufman used to say, you know, satire is what closes on Saturday night. And, you know, this closed a week later on a Sunday, so he wasn't far off with this. But I think of like the great satires for musicals, and they're hard to come up with. You know, I think of Finian's Rainbow, which does satire.

[13:08] Mike Meaney: Well, you end up finding, I think, shows that have satirical moments but wouldn't necessarily be total satires.

[13:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes!

[13:34] Mike Meaney: So, do you have any context for us as to why Arthur Lawrence and Sondheim started working on this piece in particular?

[13:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, I can't find anything about the moment where they decided that they wanted to write this particular show. I know there was notices in the papers that the show was originally called The Natives Are Restless and there was an article in Variety about that, that it was coming in 1962, which never happened. And then later on, they said, you know, a new Arthur Lawrence Stephen Sondheim musical called Sideshow is opening.

[14:15] Mike Meaney: Yes, can you imagine the first Sideshow?

[14:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Poor Daisy and Violet, I don't know what they would have done.

[14:21] Mike Meaney: Exactly, how tragic.

[14:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, if The Natives Are Restless was supposed to be in 1962, then that means, on some level, this project and Forum were kind of happening simultaneously.

[14:35] Mike Meaney: Yeah, I'm not too sure what the timeline is and where Forum comes into frame in terms of Sondheim getting that and writing that. And so, but it seems to be the overlap is pretty small between the two, or, you know, there seems to be a lot of overlap, I should say.

[14:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, in 1964, it's like you mentioned, it's a big year, not only for parades, but musical theater in general.

[14:58] Mike Meaney: Yes.

[14:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Because you got Hello Dolly, you got Funny Girl. So, you got big hits and incredible performances by female musical theater stars as well, right?

[15:10] Mike Meaney: We got Carol Chan and we got Barbara Streisand.

[15:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But also, in Anyone Can Whistle, one of our great gifts from this show was the beginning of the relationship between Stephen Sondheim and Angela Lansbury.

[15:25] Mike Meaney: Yes, and her first musical debut as well.

[15:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, who had, of course, been a star in film, getting an Academy Award nod, I think, in her teens still. Wasn't she like 19 when she did Rebecca or something?

[15:40] Mike Meaney: Anyway, something crazy like that.

[15:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, Gaslight was the first one.

[15:43] Mike Meaney: That's what it was. I think she may have been in her early 20s or late teens, and then two years before this, with the Manchurian Candidate, she got a second Oscar nomination. So, she was very, very well established at this point, and still relatively young at this point.

[15:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And also not known as a singer?

[16:01] Mike Meaney: No, the only thing she had done as a singer was a musical movie called Till the Clouds Roll By, which is a fictional biography of Jerome Kern. And she does a little musical specialty number that's two minutes long, and that's the only singing anybody's ever heard her do in a professional setting.

[16:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, the role she's playing in this is the role of the mayoress, the mayor of this town, who the town is struggling financially. And so, she and her cronies decide to fake a miracle in order to get tourism and buoy the spirits of everyone who may live there.

[16:43] Mike Meaney: From what I understand, when Angela Lansbury started working on the show, they almost replaced her because she was feeling pretty insecure about this whole project.

[16:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, there's stories about her having issues with the music director and not getting the best advice about singing and vocal health. And there was one of her co-stars, Sondheim, has a story about how he was the original Ashub in this, and he had a heart attack when they were out of town. And he was like, by the way, this whole like out of town sounds like it was a nightmare.

[17:20] Mike Meaney: Yes, he couldn't write drama like this.

[17:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, so one of the stars has a heart attack. And he's replaced with the understudy. And then once the understudy comes in, she starts doing a lot better because she isn't as intimidated by the understudy as she is by the season pro playing opposite her for most of the scenes.

[17:41] Mike Meaney: All right, so I hope all of the nerds are loving this and everybody else hasn't turned it off.

[17:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. So they do actually, I mean, this show reeks to me of a show that didn't have an out of town tryout, but they did the out of town trial had more performances than it did on Broadway than it did on Broadway, and then they transferred to Broadway, it opens and then closes in what, nine, nine, nine performances, crazy, crazy, crazy.

[18:08] Mike Meaney: It only gets really one Tony nomination.

[18:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's which was for Herbert Ross, the choreographer. You're like, wait, of all of the things in this show, the thing that gets nominated is the choreography.

[18:20] Mike Meaney: And yes, because guess what? It's also a dance show. There's two huge ballets in it. And Herbert Ross is the only one to come out of this unscathed in the reviews.

[18:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: For those who don't know, Herbert Ross is actually kind of somebody that you know, but don't know, because he then went on to become a big film director and directed Footloose and Steel Magnolias. So if you're gay, we have Herbert Ross to thank for Dolly Parton and Steel Magnolias. You know what I mean?

[18:48] Mike Meaney: He also was a little prickly. So I guess reserve your love for him. But so cool that we had a Broadway choreographer come into film in such a big way.

[19:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The other thing that we can talk about in terms of the creation of the show is that Sondheim has gone on the record saying that one of the big problems was that amazing book writer and honestly, he's a pretty decent director to Arthur Lawrence probably shouldn't have been directing and writing the show.

[19:21] Mike Meaney: Yes, that seems to be the fatal flaw of the show was Arthur Lawrence and him doing directing duties and book writing duties. There were stories of the show being a mess out of town. And the producer and Sondheim go, we need to rewrite some things. And Arthur Lawrence was like, no, I think I'm just going to reblock some things. I think the problem is the staging. So I'm just going to go fix that. And it was just like, no, it's the book. Can we please focus on the book? Can we go back to the story?

[19:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and if anybody out there wants to revisit some stories about Arthur Lawrence, check out the Gypsy episode with Alison Fraser, who was actually friends with Arthur Lawrence. So he's a complicated dude, but also was able to direct some good stuff in his lifetime. He directed La Cage aux Folles, which he didn't write the book to.

[20:13] Mike Meaney: Yes.

[20:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then was also able to direct revivals of both Gypsy and West Side Story after they had been previously directed by somebody else. So it's an interesting relationship that he has to his own work and I think directing in general. And if you asked him, I'm sure he would have told you that he is the only one that should be directing Gypsy or West Side Story and that nobody else knows it like him. So nobody else should be allowed to do it.

[20:37] Mike Meaney: What I would give to see Arthur Lawrence and Jerome Robbins in a note session.

[20:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know.

[20:47] Mike Meaney: It had to have been fascinating.

[20:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: For real, right? Just those two queens.

[20:53] Mike Meaney: Absolutely.

[20:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, that's kind of our setup for this show. Is there anything else we need to talk about before we kind of dive into this plot?

[21:04] Mike Meaney: Because you guys, you're never going to see a production of this.

[21:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, I was going to say, I did a staged reading of this thing like 10 years ago.

[21:12] Mike Meaney: Oh, wow.

[21:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And I got to be honest, coming into this episode and reading it, I had forgotten most of it. I might as well have not done it. So I really want you all to understand what the show is because it's fascinating and has some really interesting things to say. But also the cultural impact speaks for itself. There are songs in this show that everybody knows who loves musical theater. And there are relationships and collaborations from the show that stand the test of time.

[21:47] Mike Meaney: So is there anything else that we want to talk about before we dive into that?

[21:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think it's worth mentioning that despite there only being one major production of this, the show gets done but almost exclusively as a concert. And I think that's a testament to how great the score is despite the flaws in the book and how many fantastic songs are in the show.

[22:14] Mike Meaney: And I feel like, to paraphrase the West Wing, it's the first time where we let Sondheim be Sondheim. And it really feels like that. And you can tell just from listening to the score that you're like, oh, he's going to do that again in Follies. Oh, the pastiche is going to show up again in this. Simple is going to turn into Someone in a Tree or The Day Off from Sunday in the Park. And you can see these little seeds starting to sprout here.

[22:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's such a great point because you look at Forum. He's fulfilling an assignment with Forum.

[22:50] Mike Meaney: Yes.

[22:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But with Anyone Can Whistle, he is bringing up his creativity and really letting it fly.

[22:58] Mike Meaney: 100%.

[23:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so cool. And I just want everybody to remember, same season as Hello, Dolly. Like this feels so much edgier than anything that's a hit in this season.

[23:07] Mike Meaney: Hello, Dolly.

[23:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's Funny Girl. It's She Loves Me. And High Spirits. It's all of these shows that are so conventional. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[23:24] Mike Meaney: Absolutely not.

[23:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You all know I love She Loves Me.

[23:27] Mike Meaney: Yes.

[23:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it's just so unlike anything that has ever been written for the Broadway stage at this time.

[23:34] Mike Meaney: Or since.

[23:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Seriously. Everybody say a prayer for us as we go through this plot.

[23:40] Mike Meaney: So it begins, like I said, we meet this mayoress.

[23:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And how would you describe this town?

[23:49] Mike Meaney: It is a desolate town. There's a narrator that begins the show and says that their factory built a product that never breaks. So the town goes bankrupt because nobody has a need to buy their product anymore. So right from the get, we're criticizing capitalism, right?

[24:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[24:08] Mike Meaney: We know that we're in satire land.

[24:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Speaking of, you're in town. And the only successful part of the town is a sanatorium.

[24:21] Mike Meaney: Like a place for, quote unquote, crazy people.

[24:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The socially pressured is what they're described as. Which is obscure on mental health there right off the bat. But these people may not necessarily be, quote unquote, crazy. They're just a little upset about the world.

[24:36] Mike Meaney: Yes.

[24:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So what Mayor Cora Hoover Hooper decides to do is fake a miracle.

[24:45] Mike Meaney: And she has, once again, her cronies Comptroller Shube and a couple other dudes. The miracle that they decide to fake is water springing from a rock. Kind of, you know, very Old Testament times.

[24:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. They have baby Joan lick the rock and then water comes out of the rock.

[25:07] Mike Meaney: There's this strange little girl in the town named Baby... What is her name?

[25:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Baby Joan?

[25:13] Mike Meaney: Baby Joan. And Sondheim brings up that in Gypsy, they had Baby June. And then in West Side Story, they have Baby John. And it's just this weird thing that Arthur and Lawrence like to put in their collaborations.

[25:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's crazy.

[25:27] Mike Meaney: Oh, that's hilarious. But yeah, so they kind of rope her into becoming a saint. That she licked this rock and then all of a sudden water starts spurting out. Now, the truth is that there's a pump hidden in a cave that's making the water come out. But it is enough to encourage people from all around to come and visit the miracle. To drink the water from this, hoping that it will cure them in some way. Selling tickets to the miracle so the town can make some money off of this miracle.

[26:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it seems to be working, right?

[26:06] Mike Meaney: Yes, it's going like gangbusters. They have a nice... It's like a Sondheim revival pastiche with the miracle song and all of these...

[26:46] Mike Meaney: And then she has a two minute monologue and that's how she's introduced.

[26:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then in the original version, she has this monologue and then she's supposed to sing.

[26:56] Mike Meaney: There won't be trumpets, but they ended up cutting.

[26:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There won't be trumpets for the Broadway run because the monologue she gave was so powerful and Lee Remnick did such a great job with it. They're like, well, the song kind of feels redundant and a bit of a letdown after she knocks it out of the park with this monologue.

[27:13] Mike Meaney: Name another musical where you're introduced by a monologue, right? And the song is the thing to go and not the monologue. It's exactly crazy.

[27:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: To your point about the show being done in concert form a lot. Our listener friend Jessica, you know, wrote in and talked about Madeline Kahn playing the mayoress. And that was from a concert version of the show that happened in the 90s, I think, to benefit the gay men's health crisis.

[27:40] Mike Meaney: And so at that one, the great Madeline Kahn in perfect casting, in my opinion, is playing mayoress Cora. And then Fay Apple was played by none other than Bernadette Peters. I mean, my gosh.

[27:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, this entire concert, you can find it on YouTube. It's on Spotify as well. So there are ways to listen to it that are pretty easy to find and watch. And so I highly recommend that we'll probably post a couple of clips and stuff. Because like Jessica said, it really does provide incredible star turns for these amazing actors, not just in the role of the mayoress, but also Fay Apple as well.

[28:31] Mike Meaney: The other concert version featured Sutton Foster and Donna Murphy, the mayoress. Great stuff. There's also, I listened to a complete recording. It's called, it's a London recording, features Julia McKenzie and Maria Friedman. And what's interesting about that recording is they started recording it in the 90s.

[28:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And Arthur Lawrence, yes, it took them 20 years. And so they started recording it in the 90s. And Arthur Lawrence is the narrator on that. And then it didn't come out until 2020.

[29:07] Mike Meaney: Oh, my gosh. I had no idea. There are pieces of Sondheim's music that you can only listen to on that recording. They exist nowhere else. It's immaculate. The music in it is so well done.

[29:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All right. So back to Nurse Apple, who has come to the town, to the Miracle specifically, with her, quote unquote, patients from the sanatorium. The cookies. Cookies as in chocolate chip. And they want to stand in line, commune with the Miracle just like everybody else. Now, this greatly upsets those in charge because they know that there ain't nothing magic about this Miracle.

[29:49] Mike Meaney: And so if the cookies partake of the water, it's not going to cure them. And if they're not cured, oh, yeah. And there's a whole bunch of them, a whole line of 49. And if none of them are cured by this Miracle, then everybody's going to know it's a hoax. So then it's all about, OK, how can we keep the disenfranchised from participating with this Miracle to protect our hoax?

[30:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, and protect their money. OK, I'm going to tell you the truth. I'm kind of into it right now. This sounds amazing. I have turned into a full-blown Anyone Can Whistle convert during like I am one fully on board with this now that I with the amount of time I've spent with it.

[30:38] Mike Meaney: So, I mean, at this point in the story, I'm thinking like we're going like gangbusters. This is really cool. Enter now another character. This is our main lead male character by the name of Jay Hapgood.

[30:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is that right? Jay Bowden Hapgood. And he is recognized pretty early as the new doctor for the sanatorium.

[31:02] Mike Meaney: Yes, he's let in by a nurse and the doctor of the cookie jar is expecting a new assistant to be arriving any moment. And here he is.

[31:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. Yes, exactly. You know, facing the song. There won't be trumpets when the hero comes along and all of a sudden there's the trumpet fanfare and Hapgood appears, which there won't be trumpets. What a song like the maybe the best song to ever be cut from a Broadway show.

[31:27] Mike Meaney: My gosh, and we're being simplistic by saying it's just a trumpet because the script has lightning and thunder and this whole like cacophony of sounds that happen. And then the trumpet and it's just like the trumpet does exactly what you need it to do. We don't need the eight other things that lead up to the trumpet.

[31:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you. That's great. So the officials, of course, then ask Hapgood for his help because the cookies in standing in line to see the miracle have now dispersed and are mixed in with the quote unquote normal people and no one can tell who is who.

[32:06] Mike Meaney: So the officials ask the doctor, hey, we need help recognizing who's crazy and who's not. Thus begins, I think, one of the most complex musical sequences in all of musical theater history. Like to this day, ironically called Simple and it is in this number like I don't even know how to describe it, except that Hapgood presents information in a way that is dizzying.

[32:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And so confusing that nobody knows which way is up and which way is down. And it's such a great song, but at the same time is part of the problem of Anyone Can Whistle with it. Taking too many shots at too many things instead of being singularly focused on one topic and trying to attack that topic and, you know, tilt at the windmill of, you know, politics or things like that, where you've got religion, you have gender roles, you have race relations, you have capitalism, you have politics, you name it, it shows up in the song and they poke fun at it in this 15 minute song.

[33:18] Mike Meaney: It's so long, it ends the first act and not only does the song and the first act, but what happens is Hapgood in a very kind of meta sort of way says you're all crazy, not only referring to everybody on stage, but everybody in the audience as well.

[33:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There was then a change of, you know, scenery and perspective, which then, which is kind of like a coup de théâtre if you want to look at it, because it's a cool idea, but what ended up happening was all of the actors on stage then sat in theater seats, looking at the audience with like their own playbill, laughing, pointing at everybody in the audience.

[34:07] Mike Meaney: So just to kind of summarize, you just got done watching this 15 minute number that is so confusing and maybe not incredibly entertaining, and then at the end of it, you get made fun of by the people on the stage being told you're crazy, too, being told you're crazy. Now, you can imagine people going to intermission not so happy with their experience right here at the end of the first act.

[34:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's almost hostile, the way that the audience is treated and, you know, and that's another issue with this show is a lot of times it's Sondheim and Lawrence talking down to the audience and telling them that, you know, they're no different from these, you know, cookies that we have on stage. And we still have two acts to go.

[34:53] Mike Meaney: Yes. So when we come back from the first intermission, now, I mean, the town's in kind of chaos. Well, they're all split up. And what Hapgood did during Simple was divide them. You're either in Group A or Group One. And he never specifies which one.

[35:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is which. Yes. And so Group A is convinced that they are the sane ones and Group One is convinced that they're the sane ones. And everyone's still treating Hapgood as a hero during this and thrilled that, you know, he's the one who figured it out.

[35:28] Mike Meaney: And to their point, this is pretty profound. Yes. Especially in 2024. The polarization of what it means to be sane or good only cements the group further into their group.

[35:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And weirdly, delving into the show, this feels more timely than I feel like it's ever felt in the entire history of this musical. And, you know, people like to say it's ahead of its time, which I kind of disagree with. I think it's of its time because I feel like it came a little too late to be a beat musical and came a little too early to be, you know, a counterculture hippie musical while still being of the counterculture.

[36:14] Mike Meaney: And people like to say, you know, it was just ahead of its time, which I firmly disagree with. But currently, I'm like, it's timely.

[36:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's timely, for sure. And I love that you made that distinction, too, because sometimes things happen in transitionary periods. Awesome. Flop is definitely not a bad word on the show. So it makes total sense that with the intention behind the show at that specific time, that this is the kind of product that might have happened.

[36:48] Mike Meaney: And what's interesting is that, you know, it's also transitionary in terms of what the musical is doing, because, you know, Hello, Dolly! starts to bring in the end of the Golden Age that, you know, comes a little bit later with, you know, Fiddler on the Roof. You know, people argue about what's, you know, the quote unquote, the last musical of the Golden Age. But it's right around this time. And it's really not until, you know, later with Company and, you know, Cadbury and Company that you get this more concept.

[37:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And so it really is in the start of this kind of gray area in terms of form.

[37:19] Mike Meaney: Mm hmm. But you're right. The timeliness of this dynamic that happens within the town of people being split into groups, and nobody wants to be the crazy group.

[37:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. I mean, shocker, but somebody has to be the crazy group. So then it's, of course, the other one.

[37:41] Mike Meaney: Yes. Hello! I'm just, I'm so impressed by that. And I, you know, I feel with Hapgood, it's him being an idealist, and he talks about, like, he's broken from being an idealist for too long. And I'm just like, that feels a little timely, too, of just, like, just being tired from, you know, fighting all the time and just constantly, you know, he describes himself as, you know, Don Quixote throughout this, too.

[38:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Without the suffering, which is interesting.

[38:10] Mike Meaney: Yes. You know, he is surprisingly chipper and mischievous in a way that maybe a Don Quixote wouldn't be.

[38:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. He and Nurse Apple, there's some sparks there, right?

[38:24] Mike Meaney: Yes. She sees in him her, you know, the trumpet guy. But at this point, she's left. And that's where things get confusing as well, because she ran away because she refused to identify who was a cookie and who wasn't.

[38:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. I mean, she's the only person who, you know, has all of these patients memorized and could reveal their true identities, but she decides not to. And so then she has to don a disguise.

[38:51] Mike Meaney: She's the lady from Lords. Now, this is where we really go into some craziness. She shows up in a red dress and a red wig with the thickest French accent you've ever heard in your life and has this conversation with Hapgood as this character.

[39:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That while they're talking, in French, by the way, we're seeing subtitles behind them, translating what they're saying. And then sometimes Nurse Apple, who doesn't speak French, is there.

[39:23] Mike Meaney: Actually speak French that well, has to look at the subtitles to understand what exactly they're saying. The layers of absurdity are just hilarious, for sure, but now she's somebody else.

[39:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, she's the miracle inspector.

[39:40] Mike Meaney: Okay, now, what does that mean? Well, when Faye came in, she understands that the miracle isn't real. She knows it's not, and she does want to expose it, and she wants to expose the corruption that is taking place. She's a woman of science.

[40:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[40:00] Mike Meaney: Her monologue proved that. Yes, and I highly encourage people to listen. Bernadette Peters has the monologue recorded on that Carnegie Hall concert, and it's fantastic, and you get her whole worldview. But she runs away, and she comes back, and then you find out that she takes on a different persona when she wears the wig and the dress, because she was in a school play. It's a leftover costume from a school play, and it was—

[40:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In college.

[40:27] Mike Meaney: Yes, and it's the one time she was able to let herself go and not be so uptight, is when she dons this French accent and outfit, and she can be somebody else. So, exactly. Now, we're dealing with full-on identity and role play, because she is so kind of tightly wound that the only way she can let loose is to have the French accent and the wig. It has to be all of the elements at the same time. If the wig isn't there, it's not. It's like the red shoes. She needs all of these different elements in order to be a little bit looser and flirt with Hapgood. This is the first time that they're really starting to connect in a sexual way or chemistry sort of way.

[41:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's really the first time they meet as well, which adds to the confusion that I don't think he ever met Faye as Nurse Faye.

[41:21] Mike Meaney: Oh, really? Does he meet her as Lady of Lourdes first?

[41:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That, I believe so. I was telling you before, I was reading the script before we started recording, because I wanted to make sure all of these ends are as clean and—

[41:36] Mike Meaney: Tied up as possible.

[41:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And even then, I'm just like, wait, this is the first time that they're meeting each other? Because she runs away before Simple begins, and then he comes in.

[41:46] Mike Meaney: Oh, and then he comes in.

[41:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then he's like, you're clearly not French. What's the deal?

[41:52] Mike Meaney: Wow, right. Now, at this point, they've gone to a boudoir that has floated on stage. Complete with a headboard that lights up like a pinball machine.

[42:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Just cut some of these things. It would have been less expensive, and the show would have been shorter.

[42:09] Mike Meaney: But it is in these quarters, however, that Hapgood really challenges her and says, you don't need the wig. And she's like, no, I need the wig. And she shares, like you said, that she just can't let go. She can't whistle, she can't do, and he says, oh, of course you can whistle. Everyone can whistle. Cue title song, which is a stunning piece of writing.

[42:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Really think it's Sondheim's best early Sondheim song.

[42:40] Mike Meaney: I love that take. Love that take. It's so beautiful. And what I love about it is we have such complex music throughout the entire show, and then it just shows that you can be simplistic. And I don't mean that in a pejorative way. And it's just—

[42:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Powerfully simple.

[42:58] Mike Meaney: Yes. Actually simple.

[43:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, exactly. And it just shows such vulnerability and honesty. And it's just heartbreaking hearing her sing this song in the context of the show. Once again, the title tune of Hello, Dolly! is not a simple little moment, theatrically speaking, right? We got 30 waiters kicking their faces while she comes down the staircase with the feather. The title track of this show is one person all by themselves, really baring their soul. And it's pretty cool.

[43:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All right. How does the second act end? Are we getting there?

[43:42] Mike Meaney: Look at my notes. Are we there yet? So after that, we finally get back to the mayoress and the whole plot.

[43:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, of course.

[43:52] Mike Meaney: Because now she's upset that Hapgood is getting all of the praise.

[43:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, everybody loves Hapgood, not the mayoress.

[44:01] Mike Meaney: And what's funny, you know—

[44:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There's a parade in town.

[44:03] Mike Meaney: There is a parade in town. And what's interesting about this song is it was written later on by request of Angela Lansbury, because she was complaining that her character felt a little too cartoony and just felt like one note. And she had a meeting with Sondheim about this. And he's like, well, you've read the script, you know what you knew what the part was going in. She's like, well, I think I'd like to have something that kind of shows another side of the mayoress. And also, Faye has one more song than me, so I think it would be great.

[44:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And also, there's that.

[44:36] Mike Meaney: And Sondheim's response is like, if there, you know, there really isn't a better reason to write a song than that, I guess. Well, look, Parade in Town is interesting because it does feel a little more vulnerable from Korra, and yet it's still totally tied to her ego.

[44:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[44:53] Mike Meaney: Because at the end of the day, she's saying, I want a parade. And not only that, if the parade's not about me, then it can't be a very good parade. So it's a really nice shade of her that is still absolutely her.

[45:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[45:10] Mike Meaney: After Parade in Town, there are all of these plans, right? Because they need to figure out what to do with the cookies, and they need to figure out what to do with Hapgood.

[45:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So before we get to that, Faye has stolen the records of the cookie jar, and Hapgood tells her that she should destroy the records.

[45:30] Mike Meaney: Yes.

[45:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then that is when we find out that the 50th cookie is actually Hapgood.

[45:36] Mike Meaney: There it is.

[45:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that he actually was coming into town to admit himself into the cookie jar.

[45:43] Mike Meaney: I mean, we all kind of saw that coming, right?

[45:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[45:45] Mike Meaney: Everybody. It's still totally effective. Yes. And it also shows we will see heroes where we want to see them, and somebody who thinks that they need to be admitted, and they're willing to hoist them up on their shoulders. And there's no difference between who is a cookie and who isn't. And it's another way of showing that.

[46:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, absolutely. Everything that she knows about being a nurse is tied to order. And now she is faced with the option from Hapgood, which is destroy all the records. So is she going to do that? Is she going to go against her calling, her job, and destroy all of their records? And then she ultimately decides after the song, everybody says, don't.

[46:30] Mike Meaney: Another classic song!

[46:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, which, you know, it's Faye getting angry at Hapgood and telling him not to do these things, which leads him into this song. And then after that, she decides she's going to destroy the records. And then we get the first of two ballet sequences in the piece that closes out Act 2.

[46:50] Mike Meaney: And it's the whole ballet is Faye destroying the records and the cookies being set free.

[46:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[46:57] Mike Meaney: Every time she destroys a record, we see the effects of it through dance as, you know, they almost feel energetically being freed from the bonds of this sanatorium. I feel like, put yourself back in 1964. Where are you after Act 2?

[47:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The thing is, Act 2 is more conventional than Act 1 is. And you get the classic musical romantic comedy in Act 2, and it's tonally so different from Act 1. And the absurdism that comes out in Act 1, and then it's not until Act 3 that they're finally like kind of blended together, it seems like.

[47:36] Mike Meaney: Yeah. So I feel like if you toughed it out through Act 1, if you're the type of person to walk out of a show, and you're like, all right, let's just see what Act 2 has, I think you're going to be more inclined to stay seated even though.

[47:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay.

[47:50] Mike Meaney: I'm at this point, I'm pretty curious to see what happens next. So Act 3 opens with Cora the Mayoress with her, like her council, her group, right?

[47:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[47:59] Mike Meaney: And they have turned off the miracle for fear of being found out by, you know, the French lady.

[48:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[48:08] Mike Meaney: Not the French lady, the nurse.

[48:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[48:11] Mike Meaney: And they kind of realized that the only way to justify the miracle going away is to blame it on Hapgood. And then it's kind of like two birds with one stone.

[48:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[48:24] Mike Meaney: Because if they can get rid of Hapgood, and then they can also—

[48:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Get the miracle back working.

[48:30] Mike Meaney: Yes. Then it becomes about, all right, we need to get the message out there that the miracle has stopped because of Hapgood.

[48:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. Now in the midst of all of this, Cora receives a telegram from the governor. This is bad news because, I mean, Cora the Mayoress wants to become the governor and eventually the president. Like she has her sights set on the future.

[48:57] Mike Meaney: And the telegram says if she doesn't get all of like 49 cookies back in the Sanatorium, she will be impeached.

[49:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[49:07] Mike Meaney: So now it's not just about getting rid of Hapgood. They got to round up some cookies and get them in the hospital. And honestly, she doesn't even care if they're the actual cookies. Let's just get some. You have some low-key martial laws declared on the town. Cue the second ballet in this piece.

[49:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The Cookie Chase.

[49:30] Mike Meaney: And which, you guys, this sequence is honestly maybe my favorite part of the entire show. Because musically, it sounds a little bit like, I don't know, I guess it kind of sounds like a ballet. You know, it's almost classical. But she's saying things like, if they're breathing, they're a cookie. Like it's so bananas on top of sounding kind of classical and then being embodied through ballet choreography. Like it's kind of brilliant.

[50:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's so good.

[50:07] Mike Meaney: Once again, shout out Madeline Kahn, because some of the line deliveries on the recording during this sequence are just iconic. And what's great is for that recording, they restored the cut song of There's Always a Woman. Because if you've got Bernadette Peters and Madeline Kahn, you're going to make them sing that song.

[50:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's right.

[50:28] Mike Meaney: I forgot that that wasn't in the script that I just read. Yeah, and I guess Sondheim said it wasn't getting the response they wanted. So they just got rid of it. But it's such a great song. And it just shows how clever Sondheim can be. And I love it so much. And I wish they would restore it in all versions.

[50:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's right up there with your favorite Kander and Ebb two-handers.

[50:55] Mike Meaney: The grass is always greener or class or something that you just got like two broads sitting across from each other. Anyway, good stuff. We also need to give shout outs to See What It Gets You, which is a kind of deciding, demanding justice. And it was Hapgood saying he's not going to stick around with her and he's going to leave. And then she gets furious with him. Then she's like, well, what's the point of, you know?

[51:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Why have I been doing this all along?

[51:22] Mike Meaney: It's a great, great number. She really is a well-written character, especially for this time period. She's a very strong female character at a time where you don't really see. I mean, to a degree, Rodgers and Hammerstein, there are some, but it's not it's an exception, not the rule for a lot of these musicals during this time.

[51:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So Hapgood does leave. But before he does, they have this song that honestly is my one of my favorite Sondheim songs of all time with so little to be sure of.

[51:56] Mike Meaney: It's so beautiful. It's such a beautiful song about gratitude, but also is, you know, it's sad because they're parting ways. One of the reasons it doesn't get done very often is because it doesn't have an ending. There's no button to the song. And I think it may be it just kind of trails off. And so I think maybe sometimes people don't sing it in concert unless it's combined with something else. What's interesting is it's one of the only songs that got a commercial recording out of the entire score. Stephen Lawrence did a.

[52:31] Mike Meaney: Version of it that is it's gorgeous with a big orchestral arrangement and I think it's I don't know that one. I think it's the only song because this is still the time where pop music and Broadway were one in the same and so it still eked out a single from the show even for running for nine performances.

[52:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow, that's amazing. You know talk about cultural impact.

[52:57] Mike Meaney: Yes, making matters even more complicated is the fact that a town nearby now has their own miracle. The chest of a statue was touched and then it started like radiating heat, meaning like the heart had come to life and Cora when she hears about this is like that's a fake.

[53:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that's a fake.

[53:20] Mike Meaney: Of course that her own fake miracle isn't is no longer the primary fake miracle with this new fake miracle like everybody heads towards that. And in addition, Nurse Apple who is revealed to be Nurse Apple that she's not just you know, this redheaded vampy French woman, she relents, especially since Hapgood has disappeared and decides to identify all of the cookies.

[53:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean now we're really laying it on thick.

[53:53] Mike Meaney: Yes, when she identifies the cookies, they all have names like Gandhi and Kierkegaard and Ibsen and they all and it's always their last name is a famous name and then it will be like Joseph Gandhi and things like that. And so it's if you didn't get it at that point, you know, yeah, it's like these people who are considered cookies are non-conformist. They're visionaries that this town didn't want to deal with and so they're being put away to just keep things at a nice even keel and controllable.

[54:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, and then at this point the real new assistant to the cookie jar arrives, right? The actual doctor and she starts going into a speech that is almost identical to the one that Faye gave all the way back in act one and it's enough for Faye to be like, wow, is that really what I'm like?

[54:55] Mike Meaney: No, it's really powerful and that's what she decides she's gonna walk away from it all and she goes back to them to the rock where it all began and she tries to whistle and like it's very it's kind of emotional and it's definitely like a yeah moment right until she does like my grandma did when she was telling us it's dinnertime. She puts her fingers in her mouth and then it's like one of those shrill high-pitched. It's not a sweet whistle. It is a piercing whistle and it leads Hapgood to appear.

[55:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, Hapgood says he appears and he says good enough and wouldn't you know it the wall the rock starts shooting out water for real this time.

[55:51] Mike Meaney: Come on that's a great ending it really is no notes. They come back and the true magic of these two people is what makes the miracle happen. They get a true musical comedy ending totally satisfying. I don't know now. I'm ready now. I'm ready. Let's do it. I need to see it.

[56:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that's and what's interesting is, you know diving into the show you can't help but think of Merrily We Roll Along because it also is a show that didn't have a successful first go of things but the difference is they kept working and working at Merrily after it closed and this one they just kind of you know wash their hands of it and you're like we'll just put this one on the shelf and sing the songs every once in a while.

[56:35] Mike Meaney: Exactly because the songs appeared in the Scrabble concert and in Side by Side by Sondheim and you know, the songs are fantastic and there's a reason it has a legacy and it's because the cast album is so great and you could hear how gorgeous the score is so it's enough to be kind of swindled.

[56:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, gets get seduced by it. I don't know. Maybe this isn't even worth going that maybe this isn't even worth saying but there is a little bit of meta built into the show where if you were to criticize it you could very easily say well, then I guess you're just like the mayor s.

[57:15] Mike Meaney: Yeah.

[57:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you just want to put us in a sanatorium because we're the cookies, right?

[57:28] Mike Meaney: Yeah, and that turns me off just a little bit. Oh, that was I don't know if that makes sense.

[57:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, and sometimes big thing about this was he said that him and Lawrence, you know they walked it's a fine line between smart and smart-ass and they just kept going.

[57:38] Mike Meaney: Leave it to Sondheim.

[57:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So just so succinctly put it like that. That's what grades and it's true that it's just it tells the audience they're stupid just a couple times too many.

[57:49] Mike Meaney: Look, it's a fascinating show. We'll never see anything like it again. Definitely not on Broadway.

[57:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, no one's gonna be putting something up like this, especially with how expensive musicals are.

[58:00] Mike Meaney: Oh, we didn't even talk about the backers auditions because like Sondheim had to do so many right?

[58:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hope.

[58:07] Mike Meaney: 34 they did crazy sir and not only and what I think it's trying to get people to pay for it. I mean they had a lot to pay for the at the very least the headboard and what's interesting is the show is budgeted at three hundred and fifty thousand dollars, which was a modest amount of money that yeah, I can't even you know you can't do anything with that kind of money these days.

[58:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And what's interesting is that was considered, you know a five hundred thousand I think that's kind of the standard for like a normal musical and and what's also interesting is some of the people who agreed to give money were Irving Berlin, Frank Lesser, Julie Stein, Richard Rodgers who believed in these artists.

[59:00] Mike Meaney: Exactly and I really think it's interesting that they knew what was coming up and they had such faith in Sondheim and what he was capable of doing that they were willing to write checks for this show that was just so out there and so many times people would read the script and they go. Yeah, I don't want to hear the score I'm gonna pass on this so having these people in their corner and letting them go for broke is just such a great testament to them and the work that they could do. Honestly, I wish we had more of it.

[59:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Seriously, I want to see these kinds of big swings and I this shows a noble failure, you know, it's you yes, you can talk about how disastrous it was and you know the how awful the out-of-town trial wasn't you an orchestra member dying from during the you guys.

[59:44] Mike Meaney: How did we not talk about this?

[59:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She was a dancer that fell into the pit and killed an orchestra player.

[59:50] Mike Meaney: Yeah.

[59:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that's it's not even funny.

[59:55] Mike Meaney: No, it's it's he had a stroke from it and died in the hospital and it's in which is just the show was just plagued from the beginning and a poor dancer.

[1:00:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, I mean, I mean obviously the man who died poor him, but like can you imagine?

[1:00:12] Mike Meaney: Allegedly, I don't know how true this is, but the dancer he's in the West Side Story movie. He's the one who sings cool in the West Side Story movie. I believe is the one you said.

[1:00:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How did you I can't remember I was in it was in one of these books I was just like it's pretty bold to name-check the person who had to live with this for the rest of his life that he is indirectly and to it to create directly responsible for the death of this string. I mean it was an accident.

[1:00:40] Mike Meaney: Yeah, but still.

[1:00:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, no and look there have been so many shows that after a disastrous out-of-town tryout just like fold it up right they're like you know what it's not it's not worth it we're not gonna go to New York.

[1:01:01] Mike Meaney: Another Angela Lansbury show, you know with Pretty Belle that closed out of town.

[1:01:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, which I don't imagine you'll be doing an episode on it.

[1:01:08] Mike Meaney: You know, but we already invoked it on Patreon exclamation point. Don't you worry.

[1:01:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, Mike, thank you so much for being willing to do this with me. What uh honestly, I feel great.

[1:01:21] Mike Meaney: Sometimes we talk about these shows that don't work and I just get sad, right? And I'm like, oh, I wish I wish that it worked. I wish that there was a version that did work.

[1:01:25] Mike Meaney: Yeah, it's it's a really interesting piece. It is what it is. And I kind of love that it is.

[1:01:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Honestly, I'm I feel great.

[1:01:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, and I was telling you I was nervous to kind of tackle this because there's just so many layers to it and it's so difficult to succinctly discuss and but I'm glad I was able to do this because like it's turned me into a full Anyone Can Whistle convert.

[1:01:47] Mike Meaney: But I need to see a production that doesn't have binders in hands now.

[1:01:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh. Good luck.

[1:01:57] Mike Meaney: You're exactly right.

[1:01:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast you can always email me at amusicalpodcast@gmail.com.

[1:02:06] Mike Meaney: Don't forget we are on social media. So please connect with us there even more so we'd love to see you at Patreon exclamation point which is our subscriber only community that creates bonus content just for you.

[1:02:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In about five minutes Mike and I are going to be creating a special episode for Patreon exclamation point that includes a Christmas gift you guys I haven't told you this Mike but we we have a Christmas gift for everybody who is on Patreon exclamation point. It's actually very exciting.

[1:02:37] Mike Meaney: I'm super excited to talk about and it's all about Sondheim.

[1:02:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So it only costs $1 a month to go and join Patreon and be with us there especially because in the new year we will be creating more tiers and if you join right now, you will qualify for all of those tiers in 2025.

[1:02:55] Mike Meaney: So come and join us before the end of the year.

[1:02:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What else remember we've got our TeePublic store with great designs the profits from those designs we give to Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS.

[1:03:07] Mike Meaney: More than anything. Thank you so much for being a part of this wonderful community that is always a bright spot in my life.

[1:03:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mike, thank you again. How do we follow you? What are you up to anything you want to plug?

[1:03:21] Mike Meaney: Yeah. Thank you for having it so so much fun. I'm on social media's is real Mike Meaney, M-e-a-n-e-y. I think Instagram is really the only one I dare to venture on to these days.

[1:03:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And in the spring, I'm gonna be the associate director with J2 Spotlight who the artistic director is your fellow Broadway Podcast Network host Rob Schneider.

[1:03:40] Mike Meaney: Yes.

[1:03:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So he's they've got a season that's Smile and so they're doing so it's Smile, Zorba, and Dress the Cat.

[1:03:58] Mike Meaney: So it is.

[1:04:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I have some backstage tea on some of these titles we get we might need to talk after.

[1:04:06] Mike Meaney: Exciting it's such a great season.

[1:04:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So I get to spend even more time in obscure musicals from the 1960s with Dress the Cat and Zorba the Cow which is a great score.

[1:04:15] Mike Meaney: It's Smile. I have my my Smile t-shirt not here with me right now.

[1:04:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I do have a t-shirt from Tom's Trendy Tees dedicated to Howard Ashman Smile.

[1:04:26] Mike Meaney: I'm on Marvin Hamlisch too fine, but in the spring on those I'm really excited to work with him again.

[1:04:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's who I did Don't Worry Me with and Rob is just the best and I'm so excited to be in a rehearsal room with the theater again. There's such a great company. So if you're in New York come see him.

[1:04:51] Mike Meaney: Yeah, what is it? Tell miss the name of the company one more time.

[1:04:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's J2 Spotlight is the theater company and they've got a presence on the interwebs as well that you can get all the ticket information all that good stuff for them.

[1:05:03] Mike Meaney: Sweet we'll link it in the show notes so that everybody can check that out. Thank you again. What a fun time everybody out there. I mean happy December and remember there won't be trumpets.