This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Sadie Bowman: Have you ever heard of this book? You can't see it. It's just like complete clay. The Uses of Enchantment by Bruno Bettelheim. Bruno Bettelheim? I mean, I'm being dramatic. So this book, it's fascinating. It takes this approach at looking at how popular fairy tales allow children and maybe just people in general to work out their inner subconscious world in a safe way and in a subconscious way. It's not a literal thing whatsoever. So there's always kind of a sense of ambiguity to some of these fairy tales because you are internalizing them on a level that you're not even aware of. And Cinderella, as it turns out, is probably the most popular fairy tale of them all. Every single culture in the world has its own version of the story, either a boy or a girl living among the ashes at home.

And the argument that he makes is that subconsciously, we have all felt as children, either a sense of injustice or a sense of sibling rivalry at home. And Cinderella is a way for us to work out that anxiety and enjoy the wish fulfillment of transformation. So I guess my question is, did you like Cinderella as a child? And who hurt you? Oh, man, I still have grit under my fingernails from all that time, picking pulses and legumes out of the fireplace. And I still don't know how to dance. Look, do you know what? It's the glass slippers. Nobody can dance in those things. Yeah. You know, have you ever had a blister from glass? It's a mother. It is a mother. I'm actually really glad you brought that up because I was debating whether it would be appropriate to ask you if and when you think the Cinderella story will ever die.

[2:16] Sadie Bowman: Yeah, because I feel like the Cinderella story, as we know it, as we're talking about it today, the Rodgers and Hammerstein version of Cinderella, which is pretty much identical to the Disney version. Yeah, I mean, minus like, you know, the talking mice. But yeah, the French view of the Cinderella story, like the Pinol, I think is his name. Yes, thank you. But I feel like the way the story is told in Western culture is always so flattened out. It just seems like her only wish is to look pretty and to be chosen by the special, special man. And that is such a boring story, right? And isn't it interesting that as time goes on, that's only revealed more? And at least the argument in this book is the ambiguity of fairy tales is revealed the more and more we analyze them, the more and more we analyze them.

Because when you do break them down, you're like, well, that doesn't make sense. And who acts like that? And why is this grown woman acting like a little child? Oh, maybe because she's supposed to be a little child. But then it provides artists and storytellers with this really interesting predicament of, there's something deep in our culture that is connecting to these stories. How do we then bring elements that satisfy our analytical brain that's going to be sitting there and taking in this very short story over two and a half hours?

[4:00] Sadie Bowman: Watching all of these different versions of this, of Cinderella, of Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella, which I very much enjoyed watching these and thinking about it. I had to keep reminding myself like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Sadie, Sadie, this is, this is for kids. But then I would come back to myself and be like, no, give the kids more credit. And I feel like seeing different interpretations of fairy tales is a very good example of when artists choose to feed their kids frosted flakes versus oatmeal.

[4:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Totally.

[4:31] Sadie Bowman: White bread versus some whole grains.

[4:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Uh-huh. Totally. And I think the evolution of this musical.

[4:35] Sadie Bowman: Yes.

[4:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is the perfect vehicle to look at.

[4:39] Sadie Bowman: Absolutely.

[4:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we are talking about Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella, which was a listener request from Jonathan. Thanks, Jonathan. You gave me this request a long time ago, but I wanted to make sure that I had the perfect guest. And today I do have the perfect guest, someone who didn't know the musical at all.

[5:20] Sadie Bowman: Yep. Impossible things are happening every day.

[5:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, there is a very specific reason why I invited you, Sadie, to do this episode. And I'm very grateful you're here. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Sadie Bowman.

[5:34] Sadie Bowman: I'm making jazz hands.

[5:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As every good guest of this podcast should.

[5:40] Sadie Bowman: I hope so.

[5:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you so much for being here. A.

[5:44] Sadie Bowman: Thank you for having me.

[5:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: B. I'm actually feeling quite perky this morning and it's literally 6 a.m. because you're in Taiwan.

[5:54] Sadie Bowman: I am. Thank you. I am calling you from the future, actually.

[5:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm happy to say we still have musical theater. It still exists.

[6:04] Sadie Bowman: That's so cool.

[6:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: 14 hours in the future. Now, real quick, you have this really interesting corner of musical theater.

[6:13] Sadie Bowman: In my own little corner. I'm so sorry.

[6:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm challenging myself to do that to you as many times today as I can.

[6:20] Sadie Bowman: Please drop them in. That's when you know you've really taken in a musical, is when you're in rehearsals for it and all of a sudden those words become your own words. You can't describe anything without actually going into the lyric of a song.

[6:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I really appreciate the way that you've taken on this task. But real quick, can you explain your corner of the musical theater genre? Because I love it so much.

[6:44] Sadie Bowman: Yeah, thank you. I run a theater company. We are called Math Theater. It's the word math and the word theater smashed up in a Venn diagram. And we use live theater to tell stories that inspire excitement about math and science.

[7:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What?

[7:04] Sadie Bowman: Yes, it's a lot of fun. And it's been really interesting because I've been doing this in one way or another for quite some time. The first version of our first show was back in 2006.

[7:17] Sadie Bowman: And that was our inaugural show, Calculus, the musical. Um, which my friends is still running today. That is the reason I am in Taiwan. We just performed like version 47 of this ever changing show for the Science Museum, the National Science Education Center here in Taipei.

[7:42] Sadie Bowman: So anyway, I wrote the first version of the show with my friend who was teaching high school math. And he had a student that was having a hard time with a particular formula. It wasn't that it was too hard for her. She just literally couldn't remember it and was really struggling. So he just realized that the phrasing of how you say this formula happened to line up with a very famous melody. So he just like without even thinking, he's like, well, for maxima and minima, just take derivative minima. And then he was just like, cool. So he just wrote this parody song specifically for this one student.

[8:20] Sadie Bowman: And it worked like a charm. And the whole class started doing it. So, you know, whenever he would just put down the test, like the class would just like start homing the song and they would just crush it. Right. And he just saw immediate engagement with the material enthusiasm that, you know, was just more than was there before. So he's like, OK, I'm going to spend a summer writing parody songs for every concept in Calc one.

[8:45] Sadie Bowman: Wow, huge hit. And so me being a musical theater, comedy, jazz hands person, I was like, oh, you have all these songs that could be really cool because like most adults don't really know what calculus is.

[9:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[9:00] Sadie Bowman: Now I'm doing my jazz hands.

[9:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[9:03] Sadie Bowman: So we it started out kind of as a joke. Like we made this musical that is just basically a loose interpretation of the history of calculus and the major concepts. And it turned out that there was a real need for this kind of approach because we just started getting high school teachers asking us to come to their school and do it for their students.

[9:25] Sadie Bowman: And so, you know, we realized that this really works like using theater to, you know, to engage people with these kinds of topics. There was just just a real need for it. And so back in those days, you know, this is like the mid 2000s, everyone that I talked to was like, whoa, this is so crazy. Like theater and math is so weird, except, you know, music has a lot of math.

[9:53] Sadie Bowman: Like music is made of math. And I'm like, yeah, but that was like, yeah, totally, which is cool, which is fascinating. Actually, that's a whole other conversation. But like in those days, it was just such a novel thing. And it's been so interesting to see the evolution over the past, you know, what, 15 years, because now there's an entire movement in education called STEAM, which is science, technology, engineering, arts, and mathematics.

[10:22] Sadie Bowman: And so it's now instead of STEM.

[10:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[10:25] Sadie Bowman: So STEM is now or, you know, there's an approach to STEM that is called STEAM. We are the what?

[10:35] Sadie Bowman: So it's just been really interesting to just be part of this really, I think, amazing movement in education that integrates all of these different parts of our brains and our emotions and our creativity and provides this pathway for people of all ages to engage with something that, you know, in certain cultures or certain, you know, shades of our culture in the West, like people have been conditioned to think is boring or nerdy or inaccessible to me because I am not smart enough to, you know, to understand chemistry or like, I don't, you know, physics isn't for me or whatever. But when there's like a fun song about it, or, you know, an engaging character that you can relate to, you see how the world works in a different way. And anyway, it's fun. Did I answer your question?

[11:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Because I think that this is looking at the art form from the inside out.

[11:30] Sadie Bowman: Yeah.

[11:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Musical theater has a way to sink in deeper than a lot of other art forms, simply because you're engaging so many parts of your viscera. Whether it's like the way that you feel when you hear a certain song or the way that your brain starts to remember certain melodies. I remember in elementary school, doing times tables, I had the hardest time remember 6 times 7 and 6 times 8. And my mom made up 6 times 7 is 42 and 6 times 8 is 48. And I still remember it to this day. That was in third grade.

[12:09] Sadie Bowman: Yeah, I admit I have a really hard time memorizing numbers. So if I'm like traveling somewhere and I need to remember an address, like I will always make it rhyme with something. I'll just make up some other word that rhymes with the number and that will help me remember it. It really works.

[12:28] Sadie Bowman: And so to see the potential in the art form about calculus, about chemistry, about just math and science in general, I feel like is the perfect fit for this musical that's talking not only about dreamers and seeing what's possible, but also Rodgers and Hammerstein themselves. Cinderella was the first musical written for television. There had been other musicals filmed for television, including Peter Pan, including Wonderful Town, I think. But Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote Cinderella for TV because it had the potential of reaching so many more people at one time.

[13:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it did.

[13:07] Sadie Bowman: When it premiered, it was like 107 million people saw it at the exact same time because it was filmed live.

[13:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[13:16] Sadie Bowman: And that blew my mind when I read that because I had to stop for a minute and be like, this wasn't 107 million people who streamed it.

[13:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No.

[13:24] Sadie Bowman: Right? These were like 107 million people who were all sitting butts on sofas at the same time. That's kind of mind-blowing.

[13:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[13:34] Sadie Bowman: And in order for that to happen in a theater, I think Richard Rodgers said at some point it would have to run for 100 years. You know?

[13:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[13:42] Sadie Bowman: Yeah. It's incredible that they saw the potentiality in that. And I don't think it was an easy process either. Oscar Hammerstein said that it took him like seven months to write the lyrics and book for this show. And this is after a career, a very long career, to have written Oklahoma and Carousel and The King and I and Showbo and everything else that he did. And then, of course, Richard Rodgers had an entire career with Lorenz Hart before he even, you know, got together with Oscar Hammerstein. These are two people at the top of their craft to then apply everything they've learned to a very simple fairy tale for a medium that was the next frontier for musical theater.

[14:25] Sadie Bowman: And they proved their own point, which is making impossible things possible.

[14:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[14:30] Sadie Bowman: And making it accessible.

[14:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Because, I mean, that's something we always struggle with with theater, right? Is how do we get people into the seats? How do we get people who can't afford the price of a ticket or don't have the ability to travel to a regional theater that's...

[14:49] Sadie Bowman: Yeah, I also got really excited when I realized that when I was, you know, when I started doing research because as Jeffrey mentioned, he asked me to talk about this musical and I was like, sure, I've never seen it. I don't know anything about it. Anyway, I was really excited because I feel like in a lot of ways they were doing something that all of us indie theater artists are trying desperately to do now in 2020, which is, you know, we can't get together in the theater, whether we're 107 million people or seven people, like we just can't get together right now. So, you know, how do we do live theater, not, you know, videos, the immediacy of the performers of what they are giving us in real time, like that's it's just so hard to translate when you're not in the room.

Yeah, but we got to figure it out. Now, did you watch the original original like the Okay, which is really entertaining. Like there are so many things that I love about it. And you also see like the primitive nature of okay, they only had three camera setups. And so a lot of the structure of the songs, or even scenes are based on how many angles and cameras they can have working at the same time. The 1965 and the 1997 those were not live. Correct. Those were basically made for TV movies. Exactly. But the 50s version, Julie Andrews, that was live theater on TV. Yeah. And so so much of how it's put together is based on simply the technical restraints or boundaries that they had to work with. Which they did an amazing job.

Like I know how much work it takes to coordinate like a zoom call. Right? This is like heavy duty, well produced production. Very impressive. It's also pretty incredible. I mean, what are your opinions on like the recent live musicals that happened over say the past five years on television on television? Yeah, like the sound of music live the you know, I didn't see I don't know if I'm qualified to answer that question. Really? Well, see, that's kind of the interesting thing is like a lot of this is gonna this is a gross generalization and forgiving people because I know it doesn't apply to everybody. But in general, the theater people who watched watch so that they could like trash it on Twitter.

And then everyone else didn't watch because they weren't really interested. So there was this interesting divide in the theater community. And I do have lots of friends who like watched and were very supportive of their friends and very supportive of getting the art form out there. Absolutely. But in general, that was kind of what I saw most. And it made me wonder, okay, well, what is that backlash coming from? Is it coming from jealousy? And did it exist in the Cinderella day? And the answer is yes, absolutely. In fact, when you look at the reviews of Cinderella in 1957, they were pretty harsh, I think, mainly because Rodgers and Hammerstein at this point had become titans of musical theater.

And so they were like, well, it's no South Pacific follow your own. Yeah, I saw one review that complained about the stepsisters being reduced to vaudeville clowns, like how dare they, and that the score was just kind of a rehash of everything else that they've done in their career. All of these things that I'm that I felt like were really harsh, especially looking back on it. And I'm like, where does that? What does that come from? It's weird. And I, you know, I speak for every theater artist, I think when it's just a constant anxiety, because you're because you're so vulnerable, and you're putting so much of yourself out there. And I think my theory is that it comes out of insecurity, right? Like, I just want everyone to know that I know a good performance when I see it.

[19:03] Sadie Bowman: Yeah, I mean, I think for me, I'm just kind of doing my own thing. Like, I'm not trying to emulate anything else. I work very hard to make what I feel is generally good quality theater, you know, on a small scale with a small budget. But at the same time, it's also we are catering, I think, to a very different audience. Like we are not necessarily creating theater for the theater going public per se. But it's even scarier because you're doing it for high school students. But it's also awesome. Because yeah, it is true. Like, especially when we do, oh my gosh, one of our productions is a musical about Marie Curie, chemistry theme musical, which is all original music. Everything is original. And it is one of my proudest things that I have created so far in my life.

The worst place to perform it is an all girls high school. It's so bad. It's so scary. Oh my gosh. And the first time we did one, I was like, oh, this is gonna be so empowering. Like, I just can't wait to share this story with these amazing young women. And oh, they hate me. They hate me so much. Oh my god. When you ask who hurt me. It was that all girls school when you were performing your musical. But it's okay. Because like, I'm at a point in my life where it's like, whether you got the message now, or you'll get the message later, I shared something that I feel is a very empowering message. You chose to be making fun of me, like, while I was sincerely singing to you. That's more about you than it is about me.

[21:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely, right? It kind of goes back to something that I talked about. Now I'm realizing in the very first episode of this podcast, which was that I believe musical theater is very confronting to an audience because to see someone sing I love you instead of just say I love you is incredibly vulnerable. And so if you in any way are uncomfortable with that amount of vulnerability, you are going to actively reject it and protect yourself and that can be laughing at it that can be saying that musicals are dumb. I believe that if you are not comfortable with musical theater, then you're probably not very comfortable with feelings in general.

[22:01] Sadie Bowman: Yeah, I would agree with that 100%. And who as a teenager is comfortable with feelings? I was I loved passion when I was I was like, I am Fosca. But other than that, yeah, no, I'm just kidding. But would you would you posit that your love of musical theater helped cultivate your sense of emotion and your relationship with your emotions at an early age?

[22:49] Sadie Bowman: So that's why I'm saying we need to be giving our children nutritious art to consume because makes them into well adjusted people. It gives them tools to better their chances of becoming well adjusted people.

[22:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Amen. Amen. So Rodgers and Hammerstein. So Rodgers and Hammerstein Cinderella, they basically got approached by NBC to write an original musical. They were like, awesome. We're thinking Cinderella. NBC is like, great. They go to a producer who happens to work for CBS to ask for advice about television production. And he says, Oh, actually, I don't know if you'd be interested, but we just signed a contract with Julie Andrews to like create something for her at CBS. And Rodgers and Hammerstein were like, Oh, okay, great by NBC. And they go to CBS solely because they really wanted to work with Julie Andrews, who at this point was a Broadway star having starred in My Fair Lady. Destiny. Yeah, they get this amazing cast, which now that I look back at it, I'm in love with so many of them.

Edie Adams is like the fairy godmother, who like was kind of known as a sex pot. And so like the fact that she's in more of a like a warm role, but sassy and fun as can be, you got freaking Kay Ballard and Alice Ghostly as the stepsisters, which I love them. They are absolutely brilliant. Still make me laugh out loud when I see their scenes. Correct me if you think differently. But I think this musical is probably the most traditional musical comedy that Rodgers and Hammerstein ever wrote.

[23:27] Sadie Bowman: Absolutely. And I was gonna say it gave me all the like, I don't know, did you watch Nick at Night as a kid? Sure. And like, it was like all the great things about 50s television, right? Like the bit with the window where she keeps the window keeps the window. I'm like, that's straight out of I Love Lucy. Like, right. So good. And like the king and queen, like, all of their banter. The queen is like dusting. You know, queens don't dust. Like she's like, darning his underwear. But like, in this royal setting, right? I just felt like that was very 50s television. So 50s television, which actually makes like, one of the most uninteresting characters in the piece originally was the prince, because everything that we hear about him is not from him.

It's through his parents. And yet you see like, why they did that, because we're talking 50s television. What better way to introduce an element of what the parents might be going through than by treating the king and queen just as like your normal average?

[24:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, average mom and dad.

[24:36] Sadie Bowman: Average mom and dad. Exactly. Especially when you got like an evil stepmother, who otherwise would be the only other parent in the whole piece. So it's a huge hit, at least in terms of who watches it. It's the most watched thing to that point. Julie Andrews gets nominated for an Emmy for it. And you said that you were a big Julie fan. Yes. I do love her. She's kind of, even though she's alive and everything, like she's my patron saint. Like sometimes I say prayers to Julie Andrews. Yeah, she's amazing. Julie Andrews is so like, practically perfect in every way. But like, it's because she's as lovely as she is intelligent. Utterly. And it's utterly sincere. Like, it's not an act. No. Ever. You see her acting as a servant, you know, to her stepsisters and stepmother. And she doesn't seem like a wet rag.

[25:30] Sadie Bowman: See, I thought she seemed a bit more like a wet rag than I'm accustomed to her being.

[25:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fair enough.

[25:39] Sadie Bowman: I mean, she was definitely no shortage of personality to her Cinderella. But I also was sort of confused a little bit.

[25:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Because like you said, when you start to analyze this character, you know, and I feel this way when Fairy Godmother shows up, you're like, wait, so you have a godmother and you're living there? Like, go move in with godmother.

[26:04] Sadie Bowman: Super confused about that situation. I got the sense that they knew each other already. Like, oh, hey, godmother.

[26:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I had the same thought. I was just like, why is she not living with this clearly superior role model of a person?

[26:19] Sadie Bowman: So you've got all of these little things that don't quite add up. And I think that that is like when we were talking about when you have to make some decisions in adapting these original fairy tales to a more fleshed out story. This 1957 Cinderella reveals some of the holes. So the 1957 one happens, then they record the 1965 one with Leslie Ann Warren, Celeste Holm, who is the original 8-0 Annie in Oklahoma, was the fairy godmother. Another great cast, another huge hit. They make a couple of tweaks. Then the next one I want to talk about is this 90s one. Now, there was this amazing article written a couple of years ago about the brandy Whitney Houston Cinderella. It was produced by Craig Zayden for ABC.

It was like a revamp into The Wonderful World of Disney, which was this, you know, thing that happened every week on ABC. And I think Cinderella was the first one, but then they also did Annie with, you know, Audra McDonald and Kathy Bates. Anyway, these TV musicals started having a resurgence and Rob Marshall is the choreographer for it. So you have a lot of great talent. And then this cast, this cast is insane. It was originally supposed to be Whitney as Cinderella.

[27:36] Sadie Bowman: Really?

[27:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, but it took so long to develop it and her schedule was so busy that by the time she got around to it, she was too old for Cinderella. So she was like, well, I'll be fairy godmother, but I'm going to help pick the Cinderella. And in this really long article, which I can post if you'd like to read it, it talks about how the struggle that they had at Disney or at ABC to hire both a black Cinderella and a black fairy godmother. There were certain executives that were like, one's enough.

[28:15] Sadie Bowman: Oh my God. Wow.

[28:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Can we get Jewel? Remember the singer Jewel? Can we get Jewel for Cinderella? And Whitney wasn't having it and the creators weren't having it. They wanted to create this beautiful, colorful quilt of a TV movie. And I honestly think that this 90s version of Cinderella is responsible for how I see casting.

[28:41] Sadie Bowman: Really?

[28:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As an adult. And I think that a lot of people in my generation would agree. We grew up seeing this and loving it and seeing no problem with the colorful way that that shows cast.

[28:56] Sadie Bowman: Yes. Yes. No, I think it's beautiful. I was really impressed watching it because I was a little, because I, again, I knew nothing about this musical. I admit I was a little nervous because I was like, ooh, how is like just thinking of Cinderella, you know, this house servant, you know, sound familiar? Does that sound like any situation? Any sort of historical accuracy.

[29:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Right. So I was like, how are they going to do this with a black actress and not, you know.

[29:26] Sadie Bowman: Not have to talk about it.

[29:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So I was so pleasantly surprised and I was like, this was the 90s. This is awesome. The 90s were killing it.

[29:38] Sadie Bowman: Yeah, absolutely beautiful. So I think in many ways, I was surprised to learn, and it's naivete because I was a child, to get into 2019-2020 and have these conversations. I'm like, wait, didn't we solve this all? We had Cinderella. And the truth is, is that one thing doesn't change the entire culture. But it certainly does point the way, and man, were they pioneers in that. And once again, you look at the reviews of that Cinderella, not great. Saying that it lacked magic and not one really ounce of praise for the diversity in its cast. This was far and away my favorite version of the three TV versions. It's so good. It's so good. Now, apparently, they had a really hard time finding the stepmother who was ended up being played by Bernadette Peters. They weren't just like, oh, I know. Oh my gosh, that surprises me. Nobody would do it because of what you're talking about. Nobody wanted to be the mean white lady.

[30:41] Jeff Parsons: Oh, sure.

[30:43] Sadie Bowman: Being mean to, you know, the black stepdaughter. And Bernadette Peters was like, I'll do it. But because she's Bernadette Peters, and because they also had, you know, two stepdaughters that were also incredibly diverse in their casting, I didn't think twice about it. I also, just speaking of the stepmother character in Bernadette Peters, like, another thing that I really enjoyed about that version was that her character was so much more developed. I mean, it's not that her behavior was ever justified or that we like ever sympathized with her. But we did get to see a lot more of her motivations. She was not a flat character.

[31:26] Jeff Parsons: No, they gave her Falling in Love with Love, which is a Rogers and Hart song from Boys from Syracuse, I think. And so she sings this song about falling in love with love is falling for make-believe. She's basically teaching her daughters, this is a game and we're gonna play it and we're gonna win.

[31:44] Sadie Bowman: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Now, in addition to the original songs, every time this show gets redone, there are interplotted songs from Richard Rogers' catalog. And that's the case in the 90s version, as well as when it starts being produced on stage. I believe New York Opera produced the show several times. In that version, Boys and Girls Like You and Me was in there, which was a cut song from Oklahoma, cut to 2013, when they decide to do a full-scale Broadway revival. And in order to do so, they completely redo the book. Yeah, they completely rewrite the script. And the fellow who does it is a guy by the name of Douglas Carter Bean. Have you seen any of his shows or things that he's written?

[32:37] Jeff Parsons: Not that I am aware of.

[32:39] Sadie Bowman: Except for a super illegal bootleg iPhone recording.

[32:46] Jeff Parsons: Of Cinderella?

[32:47] Sadie Bowman: Of Cinderella. That is on YouTube.

[32:52] Jeff Parsons: Oh my gosh. I want you to chime in, because I did not watch that one.

[32:57] Sadie Bowman: It was almost unwatchable.

[32:59] Jeff Parsons: Was it?

[33:00] Sadie Bowman: On the phone, yeah. I mean, just because it was someone's shaky footage and you could tell.

[33:05] Jeff Parsons: Like, hiding behind their coat or something.

[33:07] Sadie Bowman: Yeah, totally. He's known as a comedy writer, I would say. And the musicals that he has written are very much that way. He did Xanadu. There's a self-awareness to his writing. There's a sarcasm. And I think he was hired to bring that to this 2013 version. That if you're going to write a new Cinderella, you need to be self-aware enough to recognize all of these things that we've been talking about. That we have a heroine who can seem like a wet blanket. We have a prince who's... and yet is supposed to be rescuing this girl from her life. So on and so forth. That's the one I kind of want to go through in terms of plot, because it will now be the producible version from here on out. Shall we?

[34:00] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[34:01] Sadie Bowman: Okay, the musical opens and the story of Cinderella begins with men.

[34:08] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. Honestly, what it felt like to me was like somebody looked at it and was like, you know, there need to be more strong male characters in this script. I don't feel like there's enough male representation in this story. And so we'll create another strong male character to balance out the prince. And I'm just like, okay, great.

[34:35] Sadie Bowman: Is that what we needed? You could have made a stronger female character out of your female character. That was kind of my take on the plot changes. So we've got this prince. And the prince wasn't really even introduced in the original until much, much later and had zero character development. At this musical version, he's one of the very first characters we meet. And he is like fighting giants and slaying dragons. And he's all he's very bored by it. And he is singing this song called The Who Am I?

[35:10] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, Me Who Am I, which was cut from a Rodgers and Hammerstein musical called Me and Juliet, which was a flop. It was one of their first big flops. So no one knows that song. They put it into this Cinderella. And basically what the prince is saying is, I'm doing all of the princely things. It all comes very easy to me. But I have no idea who I am. Big departure from the original. His parents are dead. And he's essentially preparing to take over the throne. He has two dudes who are helping prepare him for that one by the name of Sebastian, who we're getting like Jafar vibes from. And Lord Pinkleton, who's like the Herald. So now, as they're coming back from this like battle, they run into Cinderella.

[36:00] Sadie Bowman: Yeah, I think it's the same sort of setup as they had in one of the movie or in one of the TV versions where he's like, he's like, I'm thirsty. Let's stop at this cottage. And apparently is very impressed that someone was willing to give him a glass of water, which is also weird, because it's like, when has anyone ever denied you anything you ask for ever in your life? This surprises you. You're dressed in your most handsome armor on these amazing, beautiful horses, and they don't turn you away. I mean, I like his attitude of gratitude. I shouldn't be so critical.

[36:41] Jeff Parsons: Good for you, Topher, which is like also such like a hot name for like 2013.

[36:46] Sadie Bowman: Totally, totally. Like it can't be Christopher. It's like Topher.

[36:49] Jeff Parsons: It's totally Topher. It's all good. I just felt like a very like thin veil of like, oh, we want it to be more interesting and more depth than he just thinks she's hot.

[37:01] Sadie Bowman: Well, and she does. She does stick up for Crazy Lady.

[37:04] Jeff Parsons: Oh, that's right. That's right. That's right.

[37:07] Sadie Bowman: So there are also a couple of other characters that get introduced. The town Crazy Lady, who's named Crazy Marie. And then there's also this guy named Jean-Michel.

[37:20] Jeff Parsons: Jean-Michel, that's right.

[37:21] Sadie Bowman: And he's a revolutionary. He's warning everyone, and is a friend of Cinderella, but warning everyone that the government is overstepping their bounds and treating its own citizens poorly. And so he's trying to shout this to the rooftops. And Crazy Lady is annoying. However, Cinderella kind of sticks up for both of them. And that impresses the prince. But because Jean-Michel is a symbol of this like, red, the blood of angry men, Sebastian, aka Jafar, feels like threatened.

[38:01] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, feels threatened, right? That there's going to be like a coup. Meanwhile, he seems to be running the government his own way, and keeping the prince in the dark about what he's doing. But in order to gloss everything over, he's like, let's throw a ball. We'll find you a wife because you're about to be king. And nothing hushes the descent of the masses like a beautiful party. So one of the other first plot twists, the ball is meant to like, quiet down the descent of the revolution.

[38:31] Sadie Bowman: Yeah, the revolution. Really interesting. This gives way to the prince is giving a ball. I love Rodgers and Hammerstein so much. They're so great at introducing musical themes that are iconic and so catchy. Yeah, but one of these is and as everyone is singing, the prince is giving a ball, you've got the counterpoint of Jean-Michel singing, I think, Now is the Time, which was a song cut from South Pacific. Interestingly enough. Now, the thing about this party is that it makes everybody happy. No one more so than Cinderella's evil stepmother and stepsisters. We learn that Cinderella's stepmother married a man for love, and then he died. And so then she married Cinderella's dad for money. And then he died, but at least she got a house out of it.

Again, like for me, like I just no matter what the context is, I just get very frustrated all the time with the way women are depicted on stage. And even though I really loved the stepsisters' characters and performances in all of these versions, but I felt like having the one stepsister who was not mean, you know, like the nice stepsister. More plot twists, right? Yep, total plot twist. That added some interesting texture to Cinderella's experience. Because this person who I guess just wasn't ever really that mean to begin with. Now, like they share the seat, you know, I'm getting ahead in the plot, of course, but they end up kind of coming to an understanding and she has this ally.

[40:21] Sadie Bowman: It's very much Ever After, which is one of my favorite Cinderella adaptations, to be honest.

[40:26] Jeff Parsons: The film Ever After. Very cool. I haven't seen that one either.

[40:30] Sadie Bowman: I guess I've never seen, I've never seen anything. I just don't watch things.

[40:35] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, no, I get it. But girl, you got to check out Ever After.

[40:39] Sadie Bowman: Okay. The whole thing top to bottom is really great.

[40:42] Jeff Parsons: Sweet. Awesome. So I both enjoyed the development of, I think Gabrielle was her name, the stepsister. The nice stepsister.

[40:51] Sadie Bowman: Yeah. But it also kind of diluted that archetypical dynamic, right? Where you, where Cinderella is alone.

[40:59] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. She has really nothing except for this inner world. And if there is any theme in Cinderella, in Rodgers and Hammerstein's Cinderella, it's that dreamers change the world. And so the only thing that keeps, I think, especially when I see Julie Andrews do it, the only thing that keeps her from being such a total wet blanket, or what's another word for that?

[41:24] Sadie Bowman: Oh, gosh. Soggy washcloth. Overcooked noodle. Just a boiled piece of spaghetti is this deep inner world. And she sings a song called In My Own Little Corner, in which she talks about everything that she spends her time dreaming about. And that's what really provides the escape for the reality in which she finds herself. And as much as we want to, I think, judge her for not just getting out of that environment, I think that that might be a projection on our part, because I think there are plenty of us who deal...

[42:08] Jeff Parsons: Oh, for sure. And it's like with any domestic abuse situation, like there are a million reasons why people stay in these. It's a very complex, very complex situation. And it is very easy for us to judge from the outside. Why don't you just leave? Why don't you just leave? Go live with your godmother. Why?

[42:27] Sadie Bowman: Right. She seems cool.

[42:29] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. Yeah.

[42:30] Sadie Bowman: But in singing this, we see how alive she really is, if only in her own little corner. Now, when it comes time to go to the ball, the stepsisters and stepmother take off. Jean-Michel, the revolutionary, basically comes and has a little scene with Cinderella and says, you know what would be awesome? Nobody's listening to me about all of the injustices that are happening in the government. What if you went to the ball, talked to the prince, and introduced these things to him? Because maybe he'll actually listen to you. And she's like, ha, you're crazy. What would I wear? Enter Crazy Marie, the crazy town lady, who magically turns into the fairy godmother in what is quite possibly the most exciting costume change you've ever seen in your life.

[43:14] Sadie Bowman: There are some amazing costume reveals. Up until this point, the costume reveals of Cinderella had always been, you run off the stage, you change your costumes, and then you run back on as quickly as you can. And it was impressive simply because of the amount of time in which you were able to do it. What they wanted to do with the revival is not let them leave the stage. Every time there was a transformation, because we love a makeover, it was going to happen in front of the audience. And this first one is with Marie, who turns into the fairy godmother and says, in a Beauty and the Beast sort of way, I am the enchantress, you were nice to me, so now I'm going to grant your wish by going to the ball and carrying out Jean-Michel's wish.

[44:05] Sadie Bowman: His wish, essentially, which is to talk to the prince. So thus begins one of the other great tunes of the musical Impossible. It's such a great tune. The lyrics are brilliant and also make me cry. Are you kidding me?

[44:57] Sadie Bowman: You got this! And it works, and magic happens, and Cinderella has her amazing transformation into a gorgeous gown. She's wearing glass slippers because her stepsisters were all wearing Venetian glass elements, which is a weird, interesting part of the story. Then they're off. We go to the ball before even intermission, which is a huge change. She shows up to the ball. The prince sees her. They fall madly in love in seconds. And look, nobody writes a waltz like Richard Rodgers. Boy, oh boy, they sing "10 Minutes Ago." Oh, is this when Cinderella starts the conversation about democracy? I can't remember because I was sort of three quarters watching this iPhone version, so I'm not authority on the script.

If you have it in front of you, you will say better. But in my memory, they fell in love, and then the clock struck, and she's like, I gotta go. Oh, by the way, terrible things are happening to the peasants. You should do something. Bye! That's the way I remember it, but my memory is not great. It takes me numerous viewings to remember things the way they actually happen. So apologies if the scriptwriter is listening, and I just butchered what you did. If Douglas Carter Bean is listening to this podcast, dude, message me on Instagram, and we'll record together. Otherwise, I think you're fine. So the clock strikes 12 because, of course, magic only lasts until midnight. So she runs out. He's like, wait, no! Her slipper falls off, and then in the most gagged moment, she's like, nope, I'm going to grab my shoe, and she leaves.

And I think it's a really brilliant way to end the first act. Yeah, I didn't see it coming. Yeah, I was like, oh boy. What on earth is going to happen? So she takes her slipper with her, and then Act Two starts. Let's see, how does Act Two start? I think it picks up right where it left off. So Act Two picks back up at the palace, still at the ball, and we have the stepsisters lament. One of my favorite songs from this whole thing, I found it really interesting. So this is the song where the stepsisters are like, what does he see in her? Why does he want a girl who's merely lovely? And I know that we are supposed to empathize with Cinderella and to see them as these petty, jealous wenches because this is how women who have opinions are often portrayed, and we love seeing female competition.

But I'm just like, you know, that's a fair point. It's a great question. Yeah, because it's like, yeah, literally all she did was show up. She showed up and looked hot and just got an instant pass, right? Like the golden ticket straight to the prize. I think Carrie Fisher said it best when the new Star Wars came out, and fans were outraged that she dared to turn into an old woman. And she said something like, you know, youth and beauty are not accomplishments, right? And that's what I was thinking of every time I saw the scene. I'm like, no, she didn't accomplish any, she didn't. Well, it's also interesting that that song is so delightful because of the history leading up to it, that never ever did they ever say that Cinderella at home was merely lovely, right?

They had no problem looking at her one specific way for their entire relationship until she shows up in a dress and she's like, and they're like, oh, who is that? She's just, she's probably just pretty, not realizing that it's the same person who they have for so long treated another way. So good. It does kind of, in a reverse sort of way, teach the don't judge a book by its cover, because we see them judging someone they already have judged in a completely different way. Yeah, absolutely. Very good point. I love that, though. I do want to see a performance of the stepsisters lament that's more empowering, and it feels a little bit more so in the revival, simply because one of the stepsisters couldn't really participate in the same way that she used to.

And they use a whole chorus. There's like an ensemble. Yeah, that's probably one of the biggest differences from 1957 is now instead of stepsisters being a character number, it's like a belting showdown where everyone's like, just beautifully bright and pinky. But they all sound fantastic. Great. So then good old Toph is like, hey, you know, go chase after Cinderella. They do. But like, everything's gone. Like there's just a pumpkin and what? And Cinderella reviews the entire evening. She sings about how he was tall. She sings about when you're driving through the moonlight. And in a way, it brings her closer to her stepsisters and stepmother for the first time. Because even though she's pretending that she wasn't there and is only imagining, they are caught up in the moment and almost I think are wishing that that's how it had been for them.

And the only one who actually sees that Ella was the girl at the ball is Gabrielle, the nice stepsister. That's when they sort of form their alliance. And I think if I remember Cinderella is like, oh, no, like, don't tell it. Please, please, please, please, please don't tell anyone. And Gabrielle is like, well, OK. Again, I may be remembering this wrong, but she's like, OK, I'll keep your secret if I tell you a secret and you keep my secret. And so they're like, OK, we'll keep each other's secrets. And so she tells Cinderella how she's in love with Jean-Michel. Oh, right, right, right. And she's like, but don't tell. So they're like best friends. Because also I think the stepmother is hoping Gabrielle will marry Topher.

And isn't that like set up by Jafar? I think so. It is. It's very deliberate. Yeah, I remember she's very specifically like this daughter of mine is going to do this. Right. So, yeah, the stakes are high for Gabrielle. So they had to plot because then like the prince has decided to have a banquet now. Yes. Because he thinks that maybe this girl will come back. Like, look, the ball was great. Let's go banquet now. We're going to just go full sizzler, you know, style with the buffet. Before people have even had a chance to change out of their clothes, just have them come right back. This is like hangover breakfast. Just come right back. We got hollandaise. It's great. So, yeah, so they hatch a plot and Gabrielle is going to pretend to be sick so she doesn't have to go because Jean-Michel has asked her out to come work with him at the soup kitchen.

Right. Of course. And so she's because every musical has their soup kitchen subplot. Yes. But that's that's really sweet. I love that. Yeah. So they have their little day to go feed the poor. Meanwhile, all of the rich people are going to the banquet. I mean, there's certainly something there for haves and have nots. And this is going to be the opportunity for Ella to meet up with Topher again. Yes. And so, yeah, so the deal is that Gabrielle is going to pretend to get sick. And then as soon as they leave, she's going to give Cinderella her dress so she has something to wear so she can run up and like join the party. So, you know, she's got the dress and she's got the invitation, like the ticket so she can get in the door.

But then but then Madam Stepmom steps back. Yeah. Stepmom steps in and ruins it. Yes. Rips the dress. Enter Crazy Marie again, who is about to sing a beautiful "There's Music in You," which Whitney brought to the screen in the 90s. And Ella's like, look, I can't go to the ball. My clothing is in tatters. And so then Marie is like, yes, perhaps we need even more tatters, more rags, rags, rags. And Ella throws the rags in the air. And as they land, her gown has now transformed again into something even more beautiful. It's like gold, right? Yeah, that's the one I watched. I just kept like dragging my YouTube bar back like three times to watch. I was like, how did they do that? Like what physically happened to do that costume?

I and I am like a sucker for a costume reveal. It's like my favorite. Absolutely. All of my shows like there's a running joke with one of my friends every time I have a new show. He's like, so when does the costume reveal happen? Oh, don't worry. It always happens. It'll happen. But yeah, that I was just like, that is an amazing feat of engineering because yeah, I hope the costume designer is very, very rich now because that was amazing. William Ivey Long won the Tony Award for costume design for Cinderella. What's interesting is as elaborate and ingenious as this is, he also was the costume designer for the revival of Chicago, which was just like black slips and fishnets, you know? So what an amazing artist he is.

In fact, I would say that most people who saw this revival came away talking about the costume changes, which when does that ever happen? Yeah, very impressive. Ella shows up in her 2.0 dress and has more of a conversation with good old Toph. Before this, I think she had a conversation with Jean-Michel where if I'm remembering right, Jean-Michel was like, if only I could just go again. He's like, if only I could just go talk to the prince. And she's like, well, why don't you? Like I've talked to him. He's a nice guy. So she kind of convinces Jean-Michel to actually finally stop talking the talk and walk the walk and talk to the prince. That's so cool. So now they went and served the soup, then got a group of them to go to the banquet.

So they join Ella at the banquet and basically introduce democracy to the prince and say, hey, what if we had an election and each person gets a vote? And I think the way that came about was that basically they told the prince about all these terrible things that were happening and they're like, we need you to do something about it. And the prince was just like, I don't know. Like, I really want to help you. Like, I really like you guys. I think you're cool. But I just I don't know. I never really learned how to be a good leader. I just don't know what to do. And for some reason, Ella has this book that Jean-Michel had given her that's like a book about basically like different cultures of the world.

And the fairy godmother kind of intervenes and makes it so that the book like flies out of Cinderella's hand and falls to the floor to give her the idea that like, oh, if you don't know how to be a good leader, why don't you read this book? And I think it'll give you ideas. So he looks at the book and he's like, oh, chapter two. I'm paraphrasing. But he's like, democracy. I read about this in university. Yeah, we could do that. How do you feel about this? Because my analytical brain is like, awesome. And then my soul is a little bit like, oh, my gosh, I don't want to go to Cinderella and learn about politics and government. Yeah, same. I think same, but like slightly different. And like we were talking about this, my partner Ricky and I were talking about this yesterday, my dress rehearsal for this conversation.

I was just like watching a lot of Cinderella and processing my feelings about it and realized that at its heart, like it is an anti-monarchy story is one way to look at it, right? Good point, because she's not a royal blood. She's invading the monarchy. And this is also like, I admit that like we kind of came to this conclusion because we've been watching The Crown on Netflix. But like realizing that like monarchy is this like very vulnerable institution, right? You cannot invite a commoner. It is just too dangerous. So in no realistic situation would the prince give a ball and invite any rando to come in and like scour the kingdom looking for any person who the shoe might fit, right? Because these matches are so carefully orchestrated in our generations in the making and are all about political allyship.

Look, you may have changed my mind about this because I had never thought that Cinderella from the get-go was basically on its way to democracy anyway, in terms of breaking up the traditions of monarchy. So like to just kind of be more overt with it isn't that big of a shift. I didn't think about that. It's a very good point. But I felt honestly disappointed that her role in introducing democracy to this kingdom, she was still like totally on the sidelines. Like, it still took a man to have this idea, and for her to put the two smart men together so they could make change, right? And I'm not saying that there's not value in being a connector and a communicator. And you know, that is a valuable ingredient to society, right?

But if the story is about Cinderella, I wanted her to have more of a role. You know, I wanted her to have the idea. That is interesting. Now, banquet goes a little late. And once again, it's like nearing midnight.

[59:16] Sadie Bowman: So, I think that the original 1957 version of "Cinderella" is really interesting because it was a television musical, and it was one of the first of its kind. It brought musical theatre into people's homes in a way that hadn't really been done before.

[59:46] Sadie Bowman: The way it was staged and the performances were so groundbreaking for television at that time. It was a huge event, and it really set the stage for future televised musicals.

[1:00:16] Sadie Bowman: And then, when you look at the 2013 Broadway revival, it took those original elements and really expanded on them. It added depth to the characters and brought in a more modern sensibility while still honoring the classic story.

[1:00:46] Sadie Bowman: The evolution of "Cinderella" shows how adaptable musical theatre can be, and how it can reflect the times in which it is produced.

[1:00:56] Sadie Bowman: The themes of empowerment and self-discovery resonate deeply with audiences today, which is part of why the story remains so popular.

[1:01:06] Sadie Bowman: The character of Cinderella herself is a symbol of resilience, and that message is timeless.

[1:01:26] Sadie Bowman: In the original version, she was more of a passive character, but in the revival, she takes charge of her own destiny, which is a powerful shift.

[1:01:46] Sadie Bowman: The music also plays a significant role in conveying the emotional depth of the story.

[1:01:56] Sadie Bowman: Rodgers and Hammerstein's score is beautiful, and it enhances the storytelling in such a meaningful way.

[1:02:16] Sadie Bowman: Each song reflects the characters' journeys and their growth throughout the narrative.

[1:02:36] Sadie Bowman: The way the music intertwines with the story is a hallmark of great musical theatre, and "Cinderella" exemplifies that.

[1:02:56] Sadie Bowman: It's fascinating to see how the production elements have changed over the years as well, from the costumes to the set design.

[1:03:16] Sadie Bowman: The visual storytelling has evolved, and it adds another layer to the experience of watching the show.

[1:03:36] Sadie Bowman: The 2013 revival really embraced a more whimsical aesthetic, which brought a fresh perspective to the classic tale.

[1:03:56] Sadie Bowman: And the choreography was also a standout aspect of the revival, bringing energy and excitement to the performances.

[1:04:06] Sadie Bowman: It’s amazing how a story that has been told for centuries can still feel new and relevant when presented in a different light.

[1:04:26] Sadie Bowman: The collaboration between the creative team in the revival was key to its success, as they brought their unique visions to the project.

[1:04:46] Sadie Bowman: It’s a testament to the power of collaboration in the theatre, where different voices can come together to create something truly special.

[1:05:06] Sadie Bowman: I think audiences appreciate that sense of innovation while still being able to connect with the familiar elements of the story.

[1:05:26] Sadie Bowman: It’s a delicate balance, but when done right, it can lead to a truly magical experience.

[1:05:46] Sadie Bowman: The impact of "Cinderella" on musical theatre is significant, and it continues to inspire new generations of artists and audiences alike.

[1:06:16] Sadie Bowman: I love how this story has the ability to spark conversations about identity, self-worth, and the importance of believing in oneself.

[1:06:36] Sadie Bowman: Those themes are universal, and they resonate with people from all walks of life.

[1:06:56] Sadie Bowman: It’s a reminder that we all have the power to change our own narratives, just like Cinderella did.

[1:07:16] Sadie Bowman: And that’s what makes "Cinderella" such a beloved musical, regardless of the version.

[1:07:36] Sadie Bowman: The story's core message of hope and transformation is something that everyone can relate to.

[1:07:56] Sadie Bowman: It’s a beautiful reflection of the human experience, and that’s why it endures.

[1:08:16] Sadie Bowman: I think it’s important for us to keep revisiting these classic stories and finding new ways to tell them.

[1:08:46] Sadie Bowman: It keeps the art form alive and allows us to explore different perspectives and interpretations.

[1:09:06] Sadie Bowman: And as we continue to evolve as a society, our storytelling should evolve with us.

[1:09:26] Sadie Bowman: That’s the beauty of musical theatre—it’s always changing and adapting to reflect the world around us.

[1:09:46] Sadie Bowman: I’m excited to see where "Cinderella" goes next and how future artists will interpret this timeless tale.

[1:10:06] Sadie Bowman: There’s so much potential for creativity and innovation, and I think that’s what keeps audiences coming back for more.

[1:10:26] Sadie Bowman: It’s a story that will always have a place in our hearts and on our stages.

[1:10:46] Sadie Bowman: And I hope that we continue to celebrate the magic of "Cinderella" for many years to come.

[1:11:06] Sadie Bowman: Thank you for having me on the podcast to discuss this incredible musical!

[1:11:26] Sadie Bowman: It’s been a joy to share my thoughts and insights about "Cinderella" and its impact on musical theatre.

[1:11:46] Sadie Bowman: I look forward to seeing how this story continues to inspire and resonate with audiences in the future.

[1:12:06] Sadie Bowman: And I encourage everyone to explore the different versions of "Cinderella" and find the one that speaks to them the most.

[1:12:26] Sadie Bowman: There’s something for everyone in this story, and that’s what makes it so special.

[1:12:46] Sadie Bowman: Thank you again for this wonderful conversation!

[1:13:06] Sadie Bowman: I can’t wait to see what’s next for musical theatre and how we’ll continue to tell these timeless stories.

[1:13:27] Sadie Bowman: It’s an exciting time to be a part of this community!

[1:13:47] Sadie Bowman: Let’s keep the magic alive!