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[0:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey listeners, so I've been feeling a little icky that so many of the musicals we've talked about this year have included the subject of suicide somewhere in the plot. Totally unintentional, and Dear Evan Hansen might be the show that has it at its core more than any other. And who knows, like, maybe there's someone listening who has needed the repeated message. So, this is just another reminder. Suicide is never an option, okay? You will be found, maybe in a podcasting community. Just trust that the world needs you. What it doesn't need is the emotional chaos that these characters bring to life in this musical. So, all that being said, listen if you like, and enjoy the show.

[0:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are discussing the musical Dear Evan Hansen, which was a listener request from Olivia and Jacob. It might be Yacoub, actually, now that I'm thinking about it, because he wrote in from Prague. How cool is that? Shout out to all of our listeners all over the world. So happy you're here with us. Now, also here to accompany me to the Apple place, so to speak, is a newish family member of the Broadway Podcast Network. His show The Roundtable features conversations with everyone, literally everyone. Name somebody, Danny DeVito. Yep. Titus Burgess. Yep. I'm trying to think who else. Mari Yeston. Yep. Who are you going to say, Robert?

[2:09] Robert Bannon: You. I'm ready for you to come on. Come on down.

[2:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Come on down, Jeffrey Scott Parsons. He's also a talented performer and kind of my favorite part of fifth grade history teacher. Everyone, please welcome Robert Bannon.

[2:26] Robert Bannon: I'm so excited to be with you, because I love professionals who do this the right way and know what they're doing, as opposed to me, who just brings my jersey crazy to the microphone. You have really dissected the canon of American theater and musical theater. And I'm obsessed with your show, and I am so excited to be here. I kind of think of my show as I talk pop culture to housewives and mess, and you are doing the work.

[2:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, no, no. It takes an American quilt, okay? And the New Jersey section is always incredibly entertaining. It's a little smelly, but it's cute.

[3:13] Robert Bannon: How long have you been doing your show now? Because it's huge.

[3:17] Robert Bannon: Well, it's new on the Broadway Podcast Network. They originally said to me, can you do two or three episodes a week? And it turns out to be every day, because I'm very grateful that people want to talk to me. But it never was my intention. I knew nothing about podcasts. I knew nothing about YouTube. I knew nothing about interviews. During the pandemic, I was putting out an album, and the guy who was producing the album said, wouldn't it be fun if we just talked to our friends? And that was called Quarantine Cabaret and Cocktails.

[3:45] Robert Bannon: Of course, we all know Quarantine Cabaret. Hello. And we did that for a year. It became the Broadway Cast Reunion Series. We reunited Broadway cast to 32 performing arts centers and touring companies so that we kept the word out about theater. And then when he ended it, I just was like, I love this. I love talking to artists about art. So I just made it the roundtable, and we continued. And the Broadway Podcast Network came a-knocking, and we're here. So it's all a fluke. All a fluke.

[4:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How do you have time? Because podcasting is so much time. How are you teaching school with those beautiful little vampire energy, energy vampires, and then having time for podcasting at the same time?

[4:30] Robert Bannon: You know, that's a really good question. I love to work. I work too much. I am a workaholic, and I admit it. And I've started to create boundaries about it, about when do I not edit on the elliptical machine at the gym? When do I put down the computer and watch something on Netflix because I can work till I go to bed? And balance is not my strong suit. I have a really great partner who understands that I'm a workaholic. I have a really great support system. And teaching keeps me grounded and pays my bills and allows me to do the art. So I try to marry them both the best I can.

[5:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Kudos. Kudos, my friend.

[5:15] Robert Bannon: Kudos to you. I'm moving to Hawaii, and I'm going to live in your guest room.

[5:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Get ready for no air conditioning. No air conditioning and cockroaches, but the banana bread makes it all worth it. If that's not a selling point, that was the selling point.

[5:30] Robert Bannon: Sounds like New York City, actually.

[5:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Do you know what? I was just talking about this with somebody. The difference between the bugs on Maui and the bugs in New York City is the New York City bugs are street smart. Like here, they're a little bit more organic. But in New York City, they're like, hide your keys, hide your wallet, we're going to take it. That's how I feel the difference between bugs in our two areas.

[5:59] Robert Bannon: Are you saying you don't live next to Oprah on her Maui compound and you don't milk her goats and cows? That's what I picture.

[6:09] Robert Bannon: I have walked up to her gate of the compound. She lives down this really long, beautiful, of course, this really long, beautiful walk. It's a road, but it's not a road. It's like a path. And there's lots of lavender. It's a lovely little walk in upcountry Maui. But the furthest you can go is this gate, and then there's a lot of cameras. And you just wave, hi, Oprah, and then you turn around and walk back to the car.

[6:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Got it. Okay. That's fair. That's fair. And on her favorite things list this year should be a musical theater podcast with you.

[6:47] Robert Bannon: Thank you. You know, come on. I'm here for it. That's adorable. Thank you so much. Can I ask you a question?

[6:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely ask me a question.

[6:57] Robert Bannon: I love that we haven't even talked about Dear Evan Hansen yet.

[6:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, I know we are going to. But do you miss, you know, you were in LA, you told me, and musical theater is a New York or touring thing. How do you get your itch scratched in Hawaii when it comes to these shows? And do you make trips to see theater? Does theater come to Hawaii? Tell me, what is it like?

[7:21] Robert Bannon: I know. It's, speaking of balancing act, right? So I grew up a farm boy, and Maui has that similar vibe. And so I knew that like the country mouse side of me was going to feel very at home here. I didn't realize, however, how much city mouse had been kind of cultivated in myself throughout my adult life. So I do miss city life quite a bit. What keeps me connected to my theater loves, though, is honestly this, the community that I get from the pod. So I'm incredibly grateful to the show for that reason. And to be perfectly honest, when I was on the mainland doing shows, and kind of going contract to contract, my body was very unhappy, and I didn't have a lot of time for family. And what moving on the island has done is, is made me go like, okay, if I'm going to do a show, if I'm going to do a contract, it has to be worth getting off the island for. Speaking of boundaries and priorities, right? That was kind of one of the big reasons for coming here as well.

[8:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I understand that completely. Yeah, kudos. I'm jealous.

[8:35] Robert Bannon: No, thank you. Thank you. It's a very special place. And I feel very honored to be here. And I learn something from this place every day, truly. But thank you again for being here. So let's dive into Dear Evan Hansen. When did you see it?

[8:47] Robert Bannon: Speaking of tours, I saw the opening night of the first national tour.

[8:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, wow. What city did you see it in?

[8:53] Robert Bannon: Los Angeles.

[9:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In Los Angeles. Yes, of course. Well, I heard of Dear Evan Hansen. I'm very good friends with Matt Gould and Griffin Matthews. Matt Gould's show Lempicka is coming to Broadway next season. They had a show called Invisible Thread. And it ran at second stage. And when it closed, Dear Evan Hansen came into town and took over that theater and that space. And I heard the show, because Crystal and Lloyd left Invisible Thread and joined the cast of Dear Evan Hansen. That was a lot, right?

[9:31] Robert Bannon: Yes, and she's amazing. And when the show transferred to Broadway, I asked, we do a Bannon family grab bag, where instead of everyone getting a little gift, we get one gift that's $200. And every, you know, you get one person instead of buying for 10 people, you buy for one person. And I asked for two tickets to see Dear Evan Hansen. And I sat in the last row of the balcony. This was before I was doing podcasts, singing, acting, nothing. I was just a regular old schmo. And I sat in the last row on the aisle of the balcony with my friend Mike. And when the intermission hits, and they just finished You'll Be Found, I looked at him and I said, holy something. This was amazing. And I loved the soundtrack. I love the music. And I guess it's not a soundtrack, the album, the cast album.

[10:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure. And then during the pandemic, we worked in conjunction with Dear Evan Hansen, and I got to interview a reunion with everyone that was returning after the pandemic to Dear Evan Hansen when Jordan Fisher was Evan and that cast.

[10:35] Robert Bannon: That's amazing. It was pretty amazing to talk to them just to talk to that entire cast, and to kind of see their thoughts about putting on the cast literally, and going back on stage for this show. And I have a lot of opinions about it. So when I had the opportunity to talk about the show in 2023 with you, I was like, bring it. Bring it on.

[10:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Okay. This is one of the reasons why I was really excited to have you on because sometimes I'm like seeking for original cast members, authors, you know, whatever to talk about this show. This show requires a nuanced conversation that I think you can't have if you are too close to it. I understand that. That fair enough? So that's why I was so happy that you wanted to talk about it because I feel like we can approach it with love from all sides.

[11:33] Robert Bannon: Absolutely. Yes. I think that it is a complex, interesting piece of pop culture and theater history and of the world and evolution of the world. I think that's all fair in my opinion.

[11:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. 100%. Okay. So let's dive a little bit into the creation of it. We're going to first talk about Benj Pasek and Justin Paul, the composers. We first talked about them in our A Christmas Story episode, but just a little recap, they really start writing together in college at University of Michigan and write this very popular song cycle called Edges. Do you remember Edges?

[12:15] Robert Bannon: I sure do.

[12:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. I sure do. It was like all the rage, right? In this post-Songs for a New World musical theater landscape.

[12:23] Robert Bannon: Yes. And it catches the ears, this particular song cycle catches the ears of a producer by the name of Stacey Mindich. Is it Mindich? Mindich? I'm going to say Mindich.

[12:35] Robert Bannon: Oh, I like it. Okay. Love you, Stacey. So she decides to start collaborating on a musical with them. She brings in playwright Steven Levinson, who had produced a lot of things. He was artist-in-residence at Ars Nova. By the way, listeners, remember that company because we're going to talk more about them in an upcoming episode. So they're all working together trying to figure out what to write about. And this is what Steven Levinson says, quote, a student in Pasek's class died tragically of a drug overdose. This is like his, you know, Benj's high school experience. A student in his class died tragically of a drug overdose. It was someone who had been sort of a loner, didn't have a lot of friends or status at school, but suddenly in the wake of the death, Benj watched as everyone wanted to claim that they had been friends with him and claim that they had been part of this person's life.

[13:36] Robert Bannon: Now, I feel like this has happened to all of us. There's like the first kid in everyone's class that dies unexpectedly. Did you have this in like middle school, high school?

[13:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You know, that's a great question. I don't remember that.

[13:53] Robert Bannon: Yeah.

[13:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But I was the sick kid in high school. I was very sick of meningitis. I was out of school for like three years and disappeared, you know.

[14:01] Robert Bannon: Okay, Robert, this is going to freak you out.

[14:04] Robert Bannon: Go ahead. I'm ready.

[14:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: My story, the kid who died in middle school died of meningitis.

[14:09] Robert Bannon: Oh my goodness. That's crazy.

[14:28] Robert Bannon: Or because he was like feeling dizzy and then he had a fever and then he just died in the middle of the night and like the whole school was rocked. But this, this whole thing is very true where all of a sudden you feel like you want to be closer to them than you actually were. Does that make sense?

[14:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And what do you think that's about?

[14:51] Robert Bannon: You know, I think that we try to make sense of things that we don't understand. And I think that for kids, you know, as a fifth grade teacher and you teach kids too, you know, kids are always looking to make connections, to be seen and feel, be heard. And I think that we all long for some nostalgia and sometimes the bittersweetness of life, not to be too earthy crunchy. We all, we can live in that space of mourning or of sympathy or of longing because we are all connected. Like they're all universal feelings that we all feel. And I think for kids sometimes that are very big, I always say this, I teach social studies in fifth grade and when we do current events, if it's a war in the Middle East, if it's a, if it's a school shooting, if it's some trauma or tragedy that happens, they come into the classroom looking for someone to make sense of their fear and anxiety.

And I think that when something tragic happens in a school system, they look for each other and they look to make a connection because I think the stronger connection we have, the more we feel safe or seen or heard. And I think it solves some fear. Even if we're not that close, we, we remember, Oh, well he said hello to me in the cafeteria or he, he was my Facebook friend or he was on social media with me. And I think that that is all us trying to make sense of unsensible things.

[16:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's such a good point. I once heard that most children are kind of constantly living a psychedelic experience because, you know, because you're just experiencing everything for the first time and it's like, yes.

[16:24] Robert Bannon: So like, of course you make it about yourself because that's the only way to, to really relate to it is like, how does this affect me in this moment? Does this affect me? Right?

[16:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. Well, I think kids are, especially in the developmental ages are very narcissistic in a lot of ways. It all revolves around that. Not in that, I mean, so are all of my exes, but that's another story. I think it always comes back to the, their kids, their kids. And I think that that, you know, it's, and the world is new to them and scary. So.

[17:01] Robert Bannon: Yeah. Well, I would like to think that the narcissism ends with childhood, but that's not true. And, and the writers of Dear Evan Hansen, you know, noticed that as well. Levinson went on and said, after discussing this very real memory from Benj's childhood, they all noticed a really fascinating, bizarre phenomenon of public grieving on social media, specifically on social media. Whenever a celebrity would die or something really tragic would happen, there was this outpouring online of people kind of making it about themselves.

[17:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my goodness.

[17:41] Robert Bannon: So, so like they, they have literally said everybody making a celebrity death about themselves as part of why they decided it's not just a story about young people. It's a story about all of us in a digital age. What do you think of that?

[17:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I completely agree.

[18:01] Robert Bannon: Me too. I think, I think, you know, for anybody who complains that maybe Dear Evan Hansen doesn't have a lot of accountability to the consequences of the plot, where are the consequences and accountability for all of us using every celebrity death as an opportunity to post something on social media and get likes? You know, that is so fascinating because my, my boyfriend says, you know, was joking about someone we know that every time someone dies, a public figure, they change their Facebook profile picture or they post it on Instagram.

[18:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. Yes.

[18:37] Robert Bannon: I know this person probably. We all know this person and I find it, I have celebrities that I love that I'm a fan of and I would be very upset if something happened to them. But I think that it's an interesting phenomenon and I wish someone would explain what we get out of, out of mourning them in this way. I don't know.

[18:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In this way.

[18:59] Robert Bannon: Yes. Because it's a very specific way that, and like if this type of behavior has existed in the past, why maybe we're only noticing it now because social media has given us the opportunity to do it or is it, or is it kind of a new behavior that social media has actually crafted for us to do? You know, does that make sense?

[19:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fascinating. Yes. I mean if my, if I lose somebody and then people and I write about it on social media and they're not very close to me and then you get condolences or so I've seen things happen where it's like, Oh, my third grade teacher. Oh, I'm so sorry for your love. I think I'm confused by it. I don't know what's appropriate.

[19:43] Robert Bannon: Yeah, no, that's so, Oh, that's such a good point. Recently I had somebody, um, the, the very first director who I had ever worked with passed away and I felt like I should post something because I have a lot of friends on Facebook who I don't see who are from my hometown and I just, and I couldn't be there at the memorial. So I just wanted to post love and like a memory of this person. But then you're right. You get all these comments back that are like, sorry for your loss. I'm like, Oh no, I'm totally fine. Like I was doing this to comfort someone else.

[20:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Does that, and, and I, so I felt like it kind of backfired in a way.

[20:25] Robert Bannon: Exactly. No, I didn't want to make this about me. I was trying to make it about them anyway. Right. Yes. Where are all the rules to this stuff? What are the rules? And I am a, uh, I, I feel like attention seeking behavior is real and people are looking to be seen and heard more than ever. And, um, especially coming out of COVID. And we are using social media as a way to be seen and heard. And if, if a TV star passes away or if a movie star or singer or something passes away and people can use that to feel connected to other people, I think they use it as a coping skill. I don't know if it's healthy. I don't know if it always existed, but I think it is a legitimate thing.

[21:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's the thing. Well done. I like that a lot. You are not a doctor, but I'm, I am prescribing that for us all to listen to and digest. Great. So that's kind of the story behind Dear Evan Hansen. But what I think is really fascinating in terms of a cultural landmark is that if you want to write a musical that goes nowhere, that goes absolutely nowhere, then let it be an original story. Like that's that, that's kind of the rules of Broadway musical theater. It needs, it usually needs to be built on some sort of preexisting structure in order to be adapted for a stage musical. That's just kind of how musical theater history works. And here is a show born out of a memory, born out of ideas, born out of like truly just collaboration that became a phenomenon. And that in and of itself is miraculous to say the least.

[22:08] Robert Bannon: Absolutely. Like name a best musical Tony winner that isn't based on some preexisting IP.

[22:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I don't know an answer because I think that the originality on Broadway is, is rare these days. You know, it's a book, it's a movie, it's a re-adaptation, it's a revival. So I give major kudos to anyone who can get something original up on its feet and especially in a wide audience like, and, and become a phenom. Like even Hamilton's based on a book, you know, like as original as it is, like every, this is an original story with an original set of characters with the original score. 100% the character Evan Hansen did not exist before this.

[22:51] Robert Bannon: Right. Incredibly impressive. The show has its world premiere at arena stage in DC in 2015. Like you said, it moves to second stage in New York in 2016 and then later that same year debuts on Broadway. So once again, miraculous when you think of Jekyll and Hyde taking over a decade to make it to Broadway, you know, it's incredible that this really fell into just the perfect zeitgeist moment to become what it is now. When it opens on Broadway, it gets great reviews. It wins many Tony awards, including best musical. Uh, let's talk about this original cast really quickly. Are you, and this is going to get into opinions. Everybody look out.

[23:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh God. Are you a Ben Platt fan?

[23:46] Robert Bannon: That was a sigh. That was a big time. I'm never coming back. I'm never going to be invited back on this show. I feel the theater community turning against me. Um, he's an incredible, he is an incredible singer and he is a singer and you try to sing waving through a window and try to sing it the way he sings it. And then you'll realize how amazing a singer he is because it is way harder than he makes it sound. He makes it sound effortless.

[24:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure does.

[24:17] Robert Bannon: And somehow does it with tears running down his face. I have said it before. If there is even the thought of crying in my, in my body, my throat will completely seal off and nothing will come out. I have, I've been through a lot of therapy and a lot of, you know, theater classes to try and make that not true. But it's just, it's just facts. That's how my body works. He is able to have tears streaming down his face and still sound as glorious as anybody would want to, without tears streaming down their face.

[24:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Now, controversial moment.

[24:57] Robert Bannon: Sure. And I think he's a great actor. I think he's a good actor for that, for this role and for many, the TV show he does on Netflix that, um, and all of his stuff. I think he excels at theater.

[25:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[25:11] Robert Bannon: In parade, gorgeous, nuanced performance. Do I think Ben Platt is, Oh, is he my favorite person? No. It's, I mean, it's, this show is so endlessly fascinating because of all of the zeitgeist that intersect within it as a, as a cultural moment, because not only did it accelerate the success of this totally original idea and story, but it also hit right at a moment where we were really starting to hate on Nepo babies.

[25:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. Oh yes.

[25:53] Robert Bannon: And his father is an incredibly, I mean, he produced, he owns Universal basically and produced Wicked. So they're, they're there. That's like always been the elephant in the room is like, would he be who he is without his father? Probably not. I wouldn't be who I am without my father. And that's fair. And you know, that Nepo, Nepo babies is real and I'm not begrudging. If I have children, I would do everything I can to make their dreams come true as well. Do I think he could be humble about it and he could be a little bit more honest and have a, be a little bit more of a part of the conversation? Yeah. I think he's a little defensive and, and I, I have seen him on the red carpets. He will never stop and do an interview with me and that's fine.

Um, I, and that's okay. That's fine. He is a very guarded person. I think he comes across as very guarded to me and afraid to get into some real conversation. So I wish that he was able to be more open because he has a lot to share and a great talent. And I don't think he has anything to be ashamed of that his father is who his father is and he should own it. That's fair. And I think people would understand that better.

[27:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[27:05] Robert Bannon: Here's my question that I'm not totally sure of. Was Mark Platt a producer on Dear Evan Hansen? You know, I don't know, but I, I, I he produced the film. Yes.

[27:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, how could we forget that?

[27:19] Robert Bannon: But I don't think, but I I'm not totally sure that he produced the, the Broadway version of the musical. And let us also not forget that from the very first reading of Dear Evan Hansen, Evan was always Ben Platt.

[27:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[27:36] Robert Bannon: It wasn't like the role was given to some kid and then when it came time to go to Broadway, they gave it to the rich kid in order to get the show funded. Like that's not the story I see here at all.

[27:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[27:48] Robert Bannon: I agree. And he earned it. He was amazing. He, he's believable. His acting was so nuanced, his tics, his anxiety, his tics, his anxiety, the way that he sang the score and the way that he was as Dear Evan Hansen. I think if anyone that saw him in it and being in that theater, I seen it, you know, the week after Christmas when it first opened, like I was, it was electric. He was electric in that role. He deserved every accolade and acclaim that he got regardless of who his father was. Now the other thing that I really love about this cast is that it is just filled to the brim with like hardworking musical theater actors who want to be we've always loved and it was really great to see them have incredibly juicy, amazing roles. Jennifer Laura Thompson.

[28:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So good.

[28:37] Robert Bannon: So good has been working hard since Footloose then was Hope in You're in Town, right? She, she plays Cynthia Murphy, Rachel Bay Jones. I mean the minute that she sang so big, so small, which we'll talk about, everyone was like, well, that's her Tony award.

[28:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She has been working in show after show after show for years, and so how exciting for her to, like, get her due. Michael Park, who was in the revival of *Little Me*, doing *I Got Your Number*. Like, I just love that the show is packed with all of these really great actors who aren't necessarily stars, but who have been doing the Broadway thing for years.

[29:24] Robert Bannon: Absolutely.

[29:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So let's go through the show. I'm ready to go. I'm ready to get in here.

[29:28] Robert Bannon: Oh boy.

[29:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You ready?

[29:29] Robert Bannon: Okay. Yes. I haven't gotten canceled and kicked out yet.

[29:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, absolutely not. So to prep for this, I read the script. I re-listened to the score, obviously. And then I did watch the movie. Now, we're not really going to talk about the movie. It's not a horrible film. There are distracting things about it, but we're going to focus more just on the stage version. Are you okay with that?

[29:55] Robert Bannon: I'm very happy with that.

[29:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Great. So the stage version, no overture. This show does not begin with music at all. It begins with this, like, cacophony of electric digital virtual sounds. Beeps, bops, hums, all sorts of things. And then from that kind of chaos comes this opening monologue. Evan Hansen, a teenager who's obviously dealing with some sort of social anxiety, is writing a letter to himself. What does the letter say? Basically, Dear Evan Hansen, today is going to be an amazing day, and here's why. It's like a little pep talk that he's supposed to be doing. Now, going into controversies right off the bat, a lot of people have criticized the show that they never spell out what sort of disorder Evan is dealing with, nor what medications he's on, that sort of thing. Do you have any opinion on that?

[31:02] Robert Bannon: I have a hard time sometimes putting my teacher hat away because I've been doing it for 15 years, especially with special ed kids. And I've been a very big advocate and proponent of counseling and suffering from horrible anxiety, and et cetera. I don't think that it is required, in my opinion, because I feel like it leaves it open for you to insert whatever you feel. And it is seen by a lot more people that way and feel maybe connected to than putting a name on it. I don't think a kid, especially a kid in high school, would be walking around talking about their diagnosis personally. I don't think it's important. Try and fit it in, first of all. His mom comes in and is like, now, Evan, you know you have-

[31:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[31:43] Robert Bannon: Like nothing natural about that whatsoever.

[31:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Asperger's or whatever.

[31:45] Robert Bannon: Exactly. You know you're on the spectrum, Evan. That's just not going to happen. That's not how real life happens. I also think that it's a pretty quick way to date yourself.

[31:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: True.

[31:59] Robert Bannon: Next to Normal had this problem in that they very specifically spelled out Diana's diagnosis. And then only a couple of years later, because science and medicine changes so fast, had to go back in and change the diagnosis because it was now categorized as something else. So, I think that just from a dramaturgical place, not committing to these things might actually keep the piece relevant for a longer amount of time.

[32:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, he's got this letter. His mom comes into his room to make sure that he is kind of doing his pep talk. She's also holding this $20 bill and saying, so you didn't eat last night? Meaning that she had left him $20 to order takeout. And he didn't use it because the thought of talking to the delivery man and giving him the cash was too much for his social anxiety. I think that that's a really great little blip into seeing what his internal life is like.

[33:09] Robert Bannon: Yeah, absolutely.

[33:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Do you have kids who, or I guess family members, loved ones, anybody who suffers from this sort of thing?

[33:15] Robert Bannon: I've had a lot of students through the years who are afraid to come into the classroom, or students who are afraid to speak in front of the other kids, or students who are afraid of other teachers. I've had a lot of teachers who don't understand that kids within different learning disabilities have different ways of expressing themselves. It's not something you can just say, like, you have to do it, like, be tough and be brave. It doesn't work that way.

[33:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[33:42] Robert Bannon: And I have crippling anxiety. And people are very quick to say, what I see on social media, I see you host a show, I see you do a concert.

[33:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, for real.

[33:52] Robert Bannon: That doesn't mean that it all lives in different places. Like for my brother, it's about his job. He can get into it where he feels stressed or anxious. For me, it's never about work. It's never in those ways. It's in relationships. It's wherever people have felt a certain sense of trauma or a certain trigger. So I think that it's a fun, not fun is not the right word, an effective way of showing how severe or where his disabilities lie. And I think that that was a smart, smart idea.

[34:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. It also-

[34:21] Robert Bannon: How about you?

[34:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In terms of anxieties?

[34:24] Robert Bannon: Yeah.

[34:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. It comes and goes.

[34:30] Robert Bannon: Oh, gosh.

[34:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It comes and goes, baby.

[34:35] Robert Bannon: I hear you.

[34:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think my sleep has gotten better recently. There was a while there where I was waking up at 3 a.m. when my heart would be racing. And I'd break out into a sweat. And I wouldn't even know why. But then the first thought I'd have in my brain would then become the thing to stress out about. Does that make sense?

[34:59] Robert Bannon: Yes. And that's real.

[35:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It was so weird. And those things come and go. So it isn't quite as a diagnosable thing for me. But my nephew, my heart goes out to him a lot because he's kind of a what if boy. Anytime you're going anywhere, he won't stop talking the entire time. But what if this will happen? And what if that will happen? And his mind just cannot allow whatever's going to happen to happen. He has to think through all of the possible emergencies and problems that could arise. So the way that that just kind of hangs on his heart just makes me so sad.

[35:43] Robert Bannon: Of course.

[35:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And also, he's incredibly young. So I understand my sister. I hope she doesn't mind me talking about this. I understand my sister not wanting to give him medicine. That's her decision because he's very young and still has things to figure out. And that is such a personal decision about when counseling starts. When do you include medicine in with counseling? All of those different things. Here with Evan, we know that he is seeing a doctor, Dr. Sherman, and that he is on some sort of medication. But it doesn't seem to be helping in, I think, the way that his mom wants to see him not suffer quite so much. That leads her to begin the opening song, which is something else I love about this show. This show about Evan Hansen begins with a song that the two moms sing, *Anybody Have a Map*, that really shows them kind of, you know, in their own words, making it up as they go. Yeah, nobody in this show is standing on superior ground than anybody else. Everyone in their own way is living their life improvisationally just like everyone else.

[37:06] Robert Bannon: That's a good point. That was a very good dramaturgical point right there.

[37:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, well, thank you, Robert.

[37:10] Robert Bannon: They're just regular old people. There's no hierarchy to it at all.

[37:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it makes *Dear Evan Hansen*, for me, quite a really empathic piece of theater, because each character is on their own journey. Nobody is standing above the other casting judgment or doubt. We have this introduction to the Murphys in this number as well. The Murphys are kind of the other family. In the Murphy family are Cynthia, the mom, and the dad, Larry. And in the script, it's really interesting. Stephen Levinson very specifically writes that Cynthia is a workaholic, Robert.

[37:54] Robert Bannon: Me. Call me Cynthia from now on.

[37:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey, Cynthia.

[38:00] Robert Bannon: She's refilling juice. She's doing dishes. She's running all over the house doing everything. Larry is already at work on his phone doing emails, even though he's in the kitchen. Connor, the son, is kind of looking, staring into an empty cereal bowl. And then the daughter, Zoe, is also on her phone. So here is a family that is completely disconnected from each other. And once again, the mom has no idea what to do about it. Anything you want to say about this opening and these characters?

[38:37] Robert Bannon: You know, they're really interesting because I think the family dynamic that is shown in the Hanson family and the Murphy family is very true to a lot of people's family. A lot of people have withdrawn children or parents that work too much, or there's not a connection anymore. It's not 1950. We're not like watching *Leave it to Beaver* and eating a TV dinner on the table. And I think that it's showing that a real piece of Americana and what the world has kind of become. And I think that I love this part of the show.

[39:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The other interesting thing added to these two families is the idea of class. The Murphys are very wealthy, and the Hansons are not. You know, Heidi, Evan's mom, I believe she's a nursing assistant. Like, she's not even an RN. She's cleaning bedpans and is taking as many shifts as she can to pay for the little that they do have, which means that she's gone, right? She's not a huge part of Evan's life. And that guilt, like you said, is really getting to her. Even the idea that she left him a $20 bill. I mean, when you think about the implications of that, that means that maybe there's not a credit card that he could order with online.

[40:02] Robert Bannon: Yeah, that's what I was just thinking as you were talking. Like, a $20 bill, and she's working, and she's going to work at night and leaving her son home, which I have many students that are like that. I have first generation Americans in North Bergen, New Jersey, and their parents are working at fast food restaurants, bodegas, supermarkets at night, leaving them dinner or leaving money for food. And I'm going to sound old fashioned, but like sometimes that is the impetus for trouble. We have to work and pay our bills, but we also, you know, kids need supervision and support. So how do you, in 2023, or when this came out, you know, marry those two things? I think it's a really interesting idea and an important conversation.

[40:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, 100%. Evan goes to school along with the Murphy kids. He has a cast. This is, by the way, the first day of school back after summer vacation, and he has this cast. He broke his arm climbing a tree. His mom has given him a marker to say like, oh, this might be an icebreaker for you and your friends. Get them to sign your cast. He first comes in contact with a family friend, Jared. And Jared is very clear about the fact that the only reason he talks to Evan is because their moms are friends, right? He's a family friend, not a real friend. Evan asks him to sign his cast, and he's like, absolutely not. That's social suicide. Wow, I just said suicide. That's probably not the best term for the show.

But I hope we get the idea. That leads Evan into singing *Waving Through a Window*. Now, we've all heard this song. It's a great song. But the other day, I was watching Ben Platt sing this on the Tony Awards, and the original design of the show was very interesting. It was all screens, right? I mean, it's not Facebook, it's not Instagram, but you saw the design of the projections on these screens, and you knew exactly what apps they were. And it's kind of a commentary on all of this digital life. And *Waving Through a Window* is him feeling stuck behind a window, watching life pass him by. Is anybody going to wave back at him? I'm watching this design, and I'm hearing him sing *Tap, Tap, Tap on the glass*.

And all of a sudden, I went, Oh my gosh, what do we do with a post? We tap, tap, tap on the glass of our phone to like connect with people. That's the heart. That's the heart. And maybe everybody else like already saw that in this song. I think I did. That blew my mind. Tap, tap, tapping on the glass. Waving through a window. The window being through the phone to somebody else. The way that we're connecting isn't like by actually connecting with somebody, just hoping that someone might tap back in a way. And you know, and this is repetitive, and I apologize for this commentary about my age and growing up. But like, but you know, I just turned 40. As I turned 40, growing up, there was no cell phone.

And you had to go to someone's house and you had to have conversations, you met their family. You know, there was a and nowadays kids are, you're my friend on TikTok, they're counting likes, they're counting subscribers, they're counting followers.

[43:26] Robert Bannon: Which comes with its own amazing community. I'm able to talk with Jakob in Prague, which is really exciting. But to your point, yeah, keep going. It is an isolating thing as well, where people sometimes, and I've seen it post-COVID with 10-year-old kids, they have a hard time interacting with one another in person. It is a skill that is just not as toned. I think there's such a place for social media. I'm so grateful for social media. I'm talking to you in Hawaii right now because of this. We are afraid of people. We sometimes are afraid of people, human beings in the flesh. And I think that this song is, how do you be seen? Is anybody waving? Is anybody out there? He's alone, and he's afraid to be with people.

[44:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, the one person who does end up signing his cast is Connor, the Murphy's son, who is, Connor. There's just a dark cloud hanging over this kid, right? He just doesn't seem like a nice guy at all.

[44:32] Robert Bannon: No, no. He's, I guess you would be, it's a buzzword, but he's a little bully-ish or a little, he's probably not the most respectful person in the school. Is that a nice way of putting it?

[44:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. He signs Evan's cast, it's kind of like an FU. He takes the marker and uses the entire cast to just sign his first name. So, now poor Evan's walking around as a pariah with the other pariah's name on his cast. But it's interesting, the one thing that Connor does say is, he says, now we can both pretend that we have friends. Deep, it's a deep line.

[45:28] Robert Bannon: Yeah. Cut to now, they're in the library, Evan's in the library and printing out his letter, because he has to go to his therapy appointment after class or after school. And so, he's printing out his Dear Evan Hansen letter. He sends it to the printer, goes to pick it up. Connor is already there and picks up the letter. Now, in this letter, Evan has mentioned Zoe, Connor's younger sister. Evan has a crush on her. And the wording that he has used in the letter is something like, I don't really know Zoe, but I feel like if I did, things would feel much better in my life. Connor sees this and invents this really, it's interesting. Speaking of diagnoses, Connor must have an interesting diagnosis.

I know that he suffers from addiction in the show, but there might also be like a, I don't know, like a bipolar or some other sort of disorder because what he sees in that letter triggers him to then make up this story that Evan sent that to the printer, knowing that he would see it and then he would rage out because he was mentioning his sister. And Evan's like, what? That's not even close to reality. Connor shoves him to the ground and takes the letter. Evan is just so embarrassed that he would take this letter that has his thoughts. He thinks he's maybe going to post it all over social media. And that's kind of the end of that scene. The next big plot point is that Connor takes his own life.

And Connor becomes that kid who we've discussed, who dies in school and everyone is searching for answers and connections. The connection that Connor's parents find is this letter of Evan's that he took with him. And because it is addressed to Evan Hansen, the parents think that Connor wrote it to Evan and that they, he wanted him to have it after his death. Complex! What a twist! What a twist! It's an impossible situation. And they have really crafted it in a way. And with everything that we know about Evan, it's impossible for him to tell them that they're wrong. Because the mom looking desperately for these connections, desperately for answers to a question that there simply aren't answers to. That's the tragic, the greatest tragedy about suicide is that there are no answers.

[48:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. Yes. She's just looking for... Now, may I just say...

[48:18] Robert Bannon: Yeah. Go ahead.

[48:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, please, please. I think that, and I know I'm jumping the gun here. This is where the story for me, when we talk about controversy and aging itself, I think at the time this came out, pre-COVID, pre-conversations about mental health and the way people have them now, pre-isolation, pre-the Me Too movement, even though that's not really, but speaking out or about Broadway and the politics of Broadway and diversity on Broadway, etc. I think this is where this story gets a little hard for me. Now, when I saw it originally, I was floored and fascinated and in love with it. When I think back now, I find it hard to see someone die in this way. And to kind of... I don't know how to say this without getting myself into trouble. I don't want to upset anyone who likes the show. I just feel like...

[49:17] Robert Bannon: I like the show, everyone. Don't worry.

[49:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I like the show too. I love the music. I love the actors in it. I just wish that it focuses on Dear Evan Hansen and his reaction to this, but I think that the character of Connor is not really dissected. And I think there's probably a way where we don't... Okay, I'm jumping ahead of it. Dear Evan Hansen becomes a hero and all ends nice and comfy and great, but it's really a lie. The show is built on a big, giant lie and exploiting someone who committed suicide. And I think that it is a hard pill to swallow for me. That's just my disclaimer as we carry on.

[49:55] Robert Bannon: Yeah. No, it's a disclaimer that I think a lot of people have. I come back to the thing that I just said about suicide though, is that I think that even if someone does write a suicide letter... I hate talking about this. That you still don't know what was going on inside the person's brain.

[50:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[50:18] Robert Bannon: You just never know. And I actually remember talking to a friend who saw Dear Evan Hansen when it first came out and said, I wish that they had developed the Connor character so that we know why he killed himself. And I said, but that's not true to life.

[50:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's valid. That's very fair.

[50:40] Robert Bannon: By somehow explaining away suicide, it almost takes the sting out of it. Speaking of putting a bow on it, it's like, oh, if only someone had talked to him this one day, or if only his dad hadn't hit him on this one day in his childhood, then he wouldn't have committed suicide. We'd never know. And that's what's so freaking tragic about this. And leaving all of these characters with no answers and a whole buttload of grief allows them to then start searching for whatever answers they can find. And all of them, across the board, are lies.

[51:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I think that that is sometimes very realistic. And I feel like grief makes people do many things. You know, you hear about stories about somebody dies, and their brother ends up dating their widow because they're in grief, and they're connected and bonded through trauma. And that is real. And that is a real phenomenon. When people die that we're close to, we cling to people that remember them. And in this situation, the Murphy family is looking for answers, and they're clinging to anything, including their daughter, who I just, it's just a very hard connection for me to make, that we would live in a time where this story would get out here, and that he would be a hero for this lie. And that in the end, we're jumping ahead, and all is tied nicely in a bow.

But that's showbiz. That's what we want. That's a lifetime movie. That's a, you know, whatever, a TV show. It's just, it's a touchy subject. So, a touchy subject, a very touchy subject, and multiple touchy subjects about mental health, and about suicide, and drug use, and families, are going to make people have strong opinions about it. And that's just the way it is.

[52:38] Robert Bannon: No, 100%. And I completely agree with you. I would also say that if there, if I did have a criticism of the show, you do feel the cautiousness. Is that a word, teacher?

[52:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[52:52] Robert Bannon: Okay.

[52:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In New Jersey, it's a word, but I don't know about the world.

[52:59] Robert Bannon: That's hilarious. Yeah, the caution, there we go, that the writers bring, just hoping and praying that you don't hate Evan. Everything, like, there are so many steps taken to make sure that we don't turn on Evan. Which makes sense. They're not writing Pal Joey. They're not writing an anti-hero here at all. But there is a lot of caution. I feel like a lot of little moments are put in there just to make sure that even if we wanted to hate Evan, we couldn't. And it's okay to hate Evan.

[53:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that is what I think my problem is with the show. I think as I've grown and seen it again, after the first time, and then the movie, which I know we're not talking about, I think I've grown to not like Evan Hansen. And I feel for him as a character. And I feel for him, but I don't think he is deserving of the hero moniker. He hurts people in the show, including the family, and gives them false hope, me intending to do good. You know, the road to hell is paved with good intention.

[54:06] Robert Bannon: 100%.

[54:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But I think that through his fear and anxiety and need for being accepted and liked and loved, I think that they never realistically let him pay any price for what he really did.

[54:25] Robert Bannon: As I was preparing for this episode, thinking through the conversation, how we might talk about this, I had this feeling that I've had this conversation about another character recently. And I realized it was our passion episode about Foska.

[54:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. Wow.

[54:42] Robert Bannon: Stick with me.

[54:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm with you. You're so fancy and so smart.

[54:47] Robert Bannon: No, stop it. Stop it.

[54:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[54:50] Robert Bannon: Because Foska is a very polarizing character. A lot of people can't stand her. And my theory was often because it was too confronting. She is so open-hearted and vulnerable to the point of like pathetic, that it is very confronting for people and sparks a lot of stuff in us as an audience member. And I wonder if sometimes we see, I mean, Evan could be considered pathetic. And when you see him gain confidence in this way, which is not unlike a teenager to do, it is not unlike a teenager to make some really bad decisions.

[55:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Agreed.

[55:33] Robert Bannon: Even recently in the news, when I hear about some of the college students taking stances on things happening throughout the world, I'm like, whoa, okay, I'm going to let them have their youth. I wonder sometimes if it's just kind of confronting for us as our inner kids that never grew up, or we want to see them punished in a way.

[55:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's very deep. I think it really becomes a very interesting, this is an interesting conundrum, especially with the conversation we had earlier about celebrity. Why do we have such an opinion about a piece of art? Why has it become so polarizing, even for me, or you, or et cetera? I think it's another part of the way we are as a society, where we take a stand and we dig in. I think kids make a lot of mistakes. I did. I'm sure we all did. Some of the lies that I told when I was in elementary school, Robert, I do not remember saying this, but I had somebody tell me that I pulled them aside one day and very seriously, in a very concerned voice, was like, I need to tell you something. I'm joining the circus. I do not remember this, but these are things that I apparently did. I was obviously very dramatic and looking for some sort of reaction. Listen, I married a woman. We all have a journey here. We all have a journey.

[57:09] Robert Bannon: I think that Dear Evan Hansen, including my own opinion, has sometimes gotten an unfair rap, because if you look at the history of theater and pop culture and art and movies and television shows, there's lots of problematic plots and characters, and we give them a pass. I don't know why we have all come with, some people have come with pickaxe and torches for Dear Evan Hansen. And then there's a giant part of the community who loves it. When I did the Broadway cast reunion series, and we had this, it was our biggest episode ever. Biggest audience ever, because I get it. It's a show about an outcast. It's a show about this, as we said, the word is not a nice word, but he's a little pathetic. He is scary. He is sad. We all can relate to his feelings.

[57:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Should we give him a little bit of a break? Fine, you've opened my heart, like I'm the Grinch who stole Christmas, to feeling a little bit bad for Evan Hansen as a person, even though I still think it's not the greatest choice to be glorified, in my opinion, in this day and age. But I understand he's not perfect. So you made me fine. Well, no, but like I said, it's very carefully constructed, down to, I mean, one of my favorite numbers in the entire show is "Requiem." It's such great character work. And, you know, like, Pasek and Paul know their way around a beautiful pop melody. But the way that they're able to capture character sometimes in a very naturalistic way is awesome. And I was, as I was reading through the script, I was suddenly really drawn to the dad character, Larry, the Murphy dad.

He's always kind of been secondary for me. I've always been like, focused on the moms, love the moms, love the moms. And in his little verse in "Requiem," he says, "I gave you the world, you threw it away, leaving these broken pieces behind you, everything wasted, nothing to say, so I can sing no Requiem." Like, I can't think of another musical where a father talks about him being angry at his son for killing himself. There is no, like, mourning. We're not even to a place of mourning yet with Larry, because he is so angry and hurt by him wasting, throwing everything away by committing suicide. Which I think is such an honest and important portrayal of a father, of any loved one who has a family member who has committed suicide, you have to go through the grieving process.

And one of the steps of it is anger. I mean, and how you feel left, you feel betrayed by your loved one. And it is a very complex and complicated thing. And I think the song is really beautiful. And I think that that's a very valid point. I don't know if we skipped over a song, but can I give a comment about another song?

[1:00:03] Robert Bannon: Yeah, please, which one?

[1:00:06] Robert Bannon: I hope I'm not messing up your show. When I was coming out, I came out very late in life. I was 33. I was doing a production of "Rent." And I was Roger. And I feel like if you're gay, and you're in "Rent," you have to come out. And I was married. I was with my ex-wife from 16 to 30 years old, till I was 30. I came out late. It's a whole saga story. You could find it, Google it. But I was in my first relationship. And my first male gay relationship, I should say. And I really am so moved when I listened to this score today as well, before I came and talked to you, that the song "For Forever" holds like a very special place in my musical theater heart. And I could give this show a run for its money, but be in love with songs in it.

And like, songs like "Words Fail" and songs like "For Forever," they just hit me in the heart. And I just think like a song like "For Forever" is so vulnerable. And the lyrics of it are so deep. And you really see when you use the word pathetic to describe, you know, "Dear Evan Hansen," maybe, or vulnerable. I think there's nothing even more so than "Waving Through a Window" when you listen to the song, and you feel his desperation, you feel the way he talks, and you feel like what he wants, and what this day meant for him. I think it is a great study of him as a character. And I think it is, in my opinion, one of the most beautifully crafted songs in this show.

[1:01:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, you're absolutely right. Totally right. Yeah, you're talking about this point where the Murphys invite Evan over for dinner, since they believe him to be, you know, Connor's best friend. And this family is, you know, like we said, they're each dealing with grief in their own way. But it means that nobody's on the same page. And they're all kind of fighting. And, and Zoe, the daughter is really hurt, because his death has taken away her opportunity to feel like the good child in many ways, you know, like he had tortured her all of her life, and been a horrible brother in many, many instances. And now that's all just supposed to go away, because he tragically died. You know, like that, like the pain of that.

So everyone's fighting. And it's funny in the script, very specifically, it says that there's a bowl of apples center in the table, which I didn't realize I didn't, I don't think I even remember that when I saw the show. But the apples in the center of the table, plus Evan's broken arm, plus the story, the story of him breaking his arm, which is that he fell and was waiting for someone to come and get him and nobody came, he was just there all by himself, lead him to craft this story of like, what could have been. And that is "For Forever," right? A perfect musical moment.

[1:03:14] Robert Bannon: You're absolutely right. And if you've ever been a person who has longed or daydreamed about a relationship, a friendship, or how things could be better, I mean, like you really and he delivers it with such an open, honest, earnest kind of, you believe him because his delivery is so nuanced and so detailed, and thought out. And it is just a very sweet and beautiful image and words that turn into a picture that I think I just couldn't let this go by without mentioning that song because I really do think it is something that is very touching.

[1:03:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm so glad you did. Weirdly touching.

[1:03:54] Robert Bannon: Well, and this is the same Evan who can't talk to the delivery, like the pizza delivery guy, right?

[1:04:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Because people are complex. Yes.

[1:04:03] Robert Bannon: He has managed to find this fan fiction place where he can live the life that he's always wanted to live. And what's tricky and what serves the lie is that it makes the Murphys happy. It brings them together. It gives them a page to all be on together in a way that they weren't before. They can all get around this lie, and Evan sees that it made them feel better. I mean, Santa Claus for crying out loud.

[1:04:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it's a lie. We as society do this. We decide, oh, the positives outweigh the lie. And that is a very fair point. And I know I just gave garbage to this show a few minutes ago about making the liar the hero. But in this, I understand this part of the show where you have created this. We all have lied, and we all have created this idea and built a story. And if you lie to someone and you really embellish it and you try to make it as realistic, it's a yearning for that lie to be true.

[1:05:09] Robert Bannon: Yeah, no. And I love that Pasek and Paul have layered all of these really emotional songs with sometimes really dissonant chords to help us remember that even when you're jiving to "You Will Be Found," listen to that. Listen to the cast recording. It ends with the, you will be found. You know what I mean? There is a certain degree of dissonance and dread about this feels good, but it's not going to feel good forever because it's built on a lie.

[1:05:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's foreshadowing in music. It's very astute observation. I bet all of the choir directors never even picked up on that as it's been sung around the world.

[1:05:55] Robert Bannon: Oh my gosh. I was working with my church choir. I don't know if this is going to go in, but this past weekend I was working with my church choir and the free arrangement, because I'm not going to pay for an arrangement. The free arrangement that I found online had this really clashy chord on the word love when talking about God's love. And I was like, you guys know we are changing this arrangement. If there is any word in this song that does not need dissonance, it is love, the unconditional love of God.

[1:06:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. It's funny to talk about "You Will Be Found" because my boyfriend sings at church and he just said to me, he was like, oh, I'm singing this gospel song called "You'll Be Found." He's not a theater person. And I was like, from "Dear Evan Hansen"? And he's like, and it's covered by some gospel singer.

[1:06:46] Robert Bannon: Natalie Grant. Absolutely.

[1:06:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Natalie Grant. So he was like, I got to learn all of the words. And I'm like, this is not a gospel song. This is a musical theater song. I need to stand up for the musical theater nerds right now and tell you, you have taken this and you need my permission. This is not a gospel song. This is a song from a musical that if you've watched any COVID pandemic Playbill charity theater mania, it was there. This is it. What do you mean a gospel song? They took in this song and made it a gospel song. And it's a show about a liar.

[1:07:29] Robert Bannon: All right. I'm sorry. I'm done. I'm done.

[1:07:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No. Well, let's talk about some of the other characters real fast. So Alana, she is a worker bee for sure. She is going to succeed. She's going to become president of the United States. She's this girl at high school who's doing all the extracurricular activities. And she really gets around this death as well, using it for possibly a college application. This is one of her lines in the show. She says, "Connor is really bringing the school together. It's pretty incredible. People I've never talked to before, they want to talk to me now because they know how much Connor meant to me. It's very inspiring. I actually started a blog about him like a sort of memorial page." By the way, they weren't friends. But she has seen this as an opportunity to make the school better. It's not nearly the extreme lie that Evan has told, but she is absolutely an opportunist here, using the death to forward her own desires.

[1:08:30] Robert Bannon: And even if those desires are good to get into college, to bring the school together, whatever it is.

[1:08:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure. I think that's very true, right? There's somebody right now on TikTok speaking about something that they probably don't know anything about, in a way to get views and to get followers. Because the topic is trending, because the algorithm only brings the things that will trigger deep emotional responses. They're playing the game. It's hard because I know we are both creatives. We both have things that are out on social media and people can listen to us. And I have put a really hard stand on not trying to... I have influencers on my show. They get a lot of views. But I refuse to be trendy, because I feel like our conversation will live longer than a trend. And so I feel like I want to be authentic to who I am. And if that means I'm not going to do a dance in a supermarket, then that means I'm not going to do it. Because I think we have to be authentic. I'm not begrudging people who do it.

[1:09:35] Robert Bannon: No, absolutely. I just feel like it's not my ministry.

[1:09:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, fair enough. I completely understand. I completely understand. And Alana's character, you know, I'm a little biased. Crystalyn is a friend of mine. We have duetted at my show at 54 Below. She's phenomenal, by the way. Phenomenal. I'm shamelessly plugging myself. But if you go on YouTube and see me and her singing at 54 Below, we do a cover of "How Deep is the Ocean" that she did with me. She is a gorgeous performer and singer. What I wish this character had was a little more fleshed out and had more of a solo moment or more of a thought process of her, because I think that the actors who play this character would eat up that stage with a song or with a little bit more of a story. I wish it was there. I wish they had more of a moment.

[1:10:32] Robert Bannon: Yeah, I mean, "You Will Be Found," they're prominently featured, but then it becomes a whole choral thing. And I just wish like, I want more. I want to hear more Crystalyn Lloyd on the soundtrack.

[1:10:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Who doesn't? Who doesn't?

[1:10:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's fair to say that Evan's mom is still absent. She's still doing all of these shifts that are keeping her out of the house. Every once in a while, she's checking in on him the best that she can, asking about the boy who died at school. Evan basically tells her the truth and says that he didn't know him, but leaves out the lie that he's telling everyone else that they were best friends. Evan and Zoe are starting to get closer because Evan is spending all of his time while his mom is at work at the Murphy's house. And in many ways, he's become like the new son. Kind of creepy, but once again, grief. And Evan's getting the family that he never had before. I love "If I Could Tell Her" because he's using Connor to tell Zoe how he feels about her.

And that's like a great, I mean, talk about musical theater history. People will say we're in love for crying out loud. This is such a great tradition of not being able to say what you feel, so you pretend to say it by singing from another perspective. Anyway, I love it. How do you feel about Evan and Zoe getting closer? In Connor's bedroom, no less? Weird. I'll be that person. But then again, like I said, I know it happens. But I understand her longing to be with him. She thinks they're friends. She thinks that he's a connection to the brother. And Evan Hansen is a good person in theory. He's not out to hurt somebody. He's not out beating people up. He is somebody who just wants to be accepted and longed for. And I think it's a beautiful song. And I think that grief makes us do crazy things.

[1:12:23] Robert Bannon: Joe Biden's daughter-in-law lost her husband and dated the other brother. I mean, that's a real life thing. You know, like, that's a common thing. So I think that I have no problem with that.

[1:12:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is where the show gets really interesting to me. Oh, by the way, we should say that Jared, the family friend, and Evan have also been spending a lot of time together because they have been creating these old emails that they can show the Murphys to prove that Evan and Connor were friends and talking to each other and everything. Once again, giving them hope and insight into the person that they find out because of this death that they didn't know at all.

[1:13:09] Robert Bannon: One of my favorite songs, I think the song is super fun. And I think that "Sincerely Me" is a little bit of a bop. And I love the way it was performed and acted out on stage. I think it's a really fun number and moment in the show.

[1:13:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is where the show gets really interesting, though, because Ghost Connor appears. Because Evan is feeling guilty about all of this and not really knowing what to do. And then he starts picturing and having conversations with Ghost Connor. This is another really kind of deep subject, but they wholly dive into it, which is that Connor and Evan start becoming the same person.

[1:13:55] Robert Bannon: Yeah. Jeff, I like you. You're my kind of people.

[1:14:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you. Thank you. Right back at you, friend.

[1:14:05] Robert Bannon: Yes, they do. Connor wouldn't be who he is without Evan. And Evan wouldn't be who he is without Connor. And so in many ways, because of this lie, they really are friends. They are connected in a kind of deep, profound way.

[1:14:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And in many ways, we don't know Connor really at all in the show. We know what they imagined him to be.

[1:14:29] Robert Bannon: Yeah. In many ways, I feel like if Evan kills Connor, he kills this huge part of himself.

[1:14:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No.

[1:14:35] Robert Bannon: And by kill, I mean, like, tell the truth.

[1:14:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[1:14:39] Robert Bannon: Because this whole, this person is a made up person. Who is Evan Hansen? I mean, it's become his whole personality. It's his relationship with the Murphy family. It's his notoriety in school and in the public. I mean, he can't just come out with it yet. It has become a part of who he is.

[1:14:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This leads to the song "Disappear," which I think is a song that is maybe under praised in the show.

[1:15:05] Robert Bannon: Yes.

[1:15:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think it's a beautiful song, really playing on this idea that maybe the problem here is that we haven't gone hard enough with the lie. If we don't, then Connor disappears. And if Connor disappears, Evan disappears. And nobody deserves to disappear. And that is the grain of truth to hold on to. Nobody deserves to just disappear. And Alana has created now the Connor Project, which is in memory of him. It is maybe like it started out as a Facebook group, if you want to think of it that way. And there's going to be the school assembly that they want Evan to speak at. Evan, once again, who started out the show not being able to tell the truth, once again, who started out the show not being able to talk to the pizza delivery man, is now going to give a speech in front of the entire school.

And what he ends up saying, in addition to singing "You Will Be Found," he says, that's the gift he gave me to show me that I wasn't alone, to show me that I matter, that everybody does. That's the gift he gave all of us. I just wish, I wish we could have given that to him. Where's the lie?

[1:16:19] Robert Bannon: I don't think he is lying. I think that in Connor's death, there is a gift that Evan Hansen gets, which is he does feel validated and seen and given courage that he did not have in the beginning. And this entire online community is created through the Connor Project. The Murphys are feeling better. Once again, it is this dissonance that it's a lie, but the fruits kind of speak for itself. That apple tree is full, you know?

[1:16:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Are you saying that if a lie has an outcome that it turns out to help people, it's okay to lie?

[1:16:53] Robert Bannon: I'm not saying that at all.

[1:16:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's the crux of this whole thing.

[1:17:01] Robert Bannon: It is. Now, gosh, it's so complex. I'm like, would I lie to my partner about something to make him feel better?

[1:17:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, man, would I lie to my partner about something to make him feel better?

[1:17:12] Robert Bannon: What kind of lie?

[1:17:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I like your pants. I like your shirt. I like your mother.

[1:17:26] Robert Bannon: No, I would not lie about that. And I like his mother a lot, actually. I wouldn't want to be lied to.

[1:17:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I wouldn't want to be lied to, but also just smile and pretend like the dinner tastes great, because I know that I screwed it up a little bit and this macaroni and cheese is dry. But like, gosh dang it, I was working a really long day. And if you criticize it, I might break apart. So just pretend like you love it. You know, like that sort of thing.

[1:17:54] Robert Bannon: I get that. And I want compassion. But communication is, I'm not always good at it. And it requires a lot, especially in relationship with men who are not the greatest communicators. You need to be, it's a nuanced kind of way to be honest in a respectful way. And I think that there's, even Evan Hansen, if he was a more grown, evolved human, he wasn't a kid in school. You know, he was a 40-year-old. I think there was a way of him saying, that's not the truth. But I think we have to take him for the age and stage that he's in. And in that age and stage, how do you expect a kid of that age to be able to express to grieving parents the truth? I don't think he's mature enough to do that. As a grownup, I think there's a way to say the mac and cheese, I would lie. I would just say the mac and cheese is good.

[1:18:46] Robert Bannon: Who am I kidding? I'm an eternal people pleaser. I love the mac and cheese.

[1:18:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Me too. Me too.

[1:18:53] Robert Bannon: But are the people we're with people pleasers? Because I look for a little bit of a tougher personality. I love someone who I feel protected and safe with. That is going to tell it to me straight, because I don't like to guess. If I did something that bothered you, I want to know, so I can fix it. I don't want the resentment to build.

[1:19:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's funny you should say that, because my partner, when I first told him, this was on our second date, and I told him, I come from a long line of LDS, Mormon pioneers. They walked across the plains to Utah, the whole shebang. There's a lot of suffering in that story of them pushing hand carts and stuff like that. He looked at me and he said, well, then maybe they shouldn't have gone. See?

[1:19:42] Robert Bannon: That's the person I chose.

[1:19:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But I understand, because that's what we look for, the opposite.

[1:19:48] Robert Bannon: My therapist once told me that if we're all blue and happy and nice and people-pleasing, and they're all red, and they have no choice but to be on the complete opposite, we should all be kind of purple, and be a little bit of it all.

[1:20:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's a great point. Kind of pushing us all toward the middle, yes.

[1:20:06] Robert Bannon: To the middle, where you can say, the mac and cheese was great, and I appreciated the effort, but next time maybe we'll just make it a little creamier.

[1:20:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, make it a little creamier. Thank you so much for this. Also, if you think I'm going to be in a relationship with a professional martyr, you're wrong. Get over your kind-near guilt.

[1:20:26] Robert Bannon: Right. Can I ask you a personal question?

[1:20:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course.

[1:20:30] Robert Bannon: And you could always edit it out, because this is your show. The church, you're talking about growing up Mormon, etc. Has that evolved in time? Are you still a member of the church, or have you left the church?

[1:20:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I talk about this a lot, so apologies to any of the listeners. But also, welcome if you're new to the show.

[1:20:50] Robert Bannon: Welcome.

[1:20:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I still go. I still go to church. I'm still a member of it. It means a lot to me, and I feel like I bring a certain degree of diversity that I find that my religion desperately lacks, and it makes me feel good.

[1:21:08] Robert Bannon: I'm happy that you're able to do that and be there, and that you found a community in that. I think it's really important, and I think that we sometimes push religion away, especially if we have whatever we are in our gender, sexuality, race, religion. We push it away as it's bad, but there are many people out here doing religious work that is wonderful, so I think we've got to remember that.

[1:21:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, absolutely, and I may disagree with those people that I go to church with on many instances, but I'll tell you what. If I needed someone to come and feed my dog, I'd probably ask them first.

[1:21:47] Robert Bannon: I understand.

[1:21:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that's the complex thing of family and community, I think.

[1:21:52] Robert Bannon: That is very true. I don't know if this is a controversial thing to say, but if you're listening and you want to know an interesting perspective, I have an interview with David Archuleta that's very fascinating.

[1:22:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey, my Davey Archuleta.

[1:22:06] Robert Bannon: It's a fascinating chat.

[1:22:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I bet. That's awesome. Good for Davey.

[1:22:10] Robert Bannon: Well, anyway, whatever makes people happy, right?

[1:22:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, 100%. Okay, so now the second act is when the cracks start showing, literally, because I, or maybe not literally, "You Will Be Found" ends with Evan and Zoe Smuchin, so they're kind of officially dating. They're going out, if you want to use a term from childhood, and Act Two also brings out this new development in the Connor Project that Alana has started, which is the apple orchard.

[1:22:39] Robert Bannon: The apple orchard was this big set piece that was introduced during "For Forever." It's where Evan, apparently, I say in air quotes, broke his arm with Connor. Unfortunately, the apple orchard is closed. What the Connor Project wants to do is renovate this place so that it's a beautiful park with beautiful trees, and it will all be in memory of Connor. They need to raise $175,000 to do so. Alana, being the go-getter that she is, is ready to do it. She decides to put all of the emails, all of the fake emails that Evan and Jared have written, she decides to put them online to get people interested in the story, to get them to donate. In doing so, she starts noticing things aren't quite lining up.

[1:23:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is what I mean by the cracks. All of the information goes with each other quite as cleanly as I think Evan wants it to. Also, to add into the mix, the Murphys invite Evan's mom over without telling him. They also offer Evan a scholarship to college because they're very wealthy. They're basically saying, hey, we saved all of this money for Connor to go to college. That's obviously not going to happen. We'd love to give it to Evan. His mom is mortified because here's what's going to happen. Here she is, this hard-working woman, and her son has been spending all of this time with a rich family. It's his new perfect family. She had taken the night off from work to come to this little dinner. She very defensively reacts by saying, if I'd known Evan was so concerned about our finances, I'd never taken the night off in the first place. Just gets you right in the gut.

[1:24:30] Robert Bannon: This is where "Good For You" goes, which is a great song. It's interesting that the ones who are singing it are Alana, Heidi the mom, and Jared, the friend who wrote the emails. They're all kind of getting annoyed with Evan and his newfound confidence that they all know is not necessarily truthful. That brings us to Evan once again questioning whether this is even worth it. Ghost Connor comes back and asks the big question that we haven't actually answered. How did Evan really break his arm?

[1:25:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, he fell from a tree. But Connor asks him, yeah, but did you fall or did you let go? Implying that maybe the fall from the tree was possibly his own suicide attempt. So once again, talking about Connor and Evan slowly becoming closer and closer to being the same person, it turns out they had much more in common than either of them would have known. Due to this, Evan decides to go back to Alana and be like, okay, I'm ready to help raise all of this money. What can I do? Alana says, I've moved on from you. Don't need you anymore. Evan feels really anxious about that. So he gives her the suicide note. And by suicide note, it's the one letter that they found on Connor after he killed himself.

She, without Evan's permission, puts it all over social media. And the reaction that it brings is hate and harassment to the Murphys. This whole thing about, I didn't know my sister. And so then people start trashing Zoe online saying, yeah, she is a stuck up. See you next Tuesday. It's her fault that he killed himself. Where were the parents in all of this? And so now this online community has turned against the Murphys. The Murphys then turn on each other. And that, when Evan finally sees that the Murphys are no longer happy by this lie, that's when he confesses and sings, "Words Fail" with tears streaming down his face and still hits glorious high notes.

[1:26:43] Robert Bannon: Yeah, and I love the song. I mean, I don't love the song. It's a painful song.

[1:26:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Painful song. But it is a beautiful melody and it is.

[1:26:52] Robert Bannon: And it is very touching, and it is a very moving moment in the show. Even with my criticism, I can hear that song, and it gets me. It is a very beautiful piece of writing.

[1:27:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. That scene leads into another really emotional scene, which is the mom scene. That's what I call it, where he confesses to the mom and says, I lied. And it makes me cry even thinking about it, because she's like, what did you lie about? Tell me everything. And he says he not only lied about Connor, but he lied about falling out of the tree. And she says, well, you can tell me. And he says, he says, you'll hate me.

[1:27:36] Robert Bannon: Yeah. And that shame, right? That's where shame lives.

[1:27:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[1:27:39] Robert Bannon: That if I speak this truth, you'll hate me forever. And in the best mom song ever, she sings so big, so small to him. Can anybody watch that scene or hear that song without crying? I can't. I literally cannot do it.

[1:27:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: From the beginning, when you talk about a dad leaving and the U-Haul truck, it is a very beautiful, beautiful song. And it is done so well and with so much emotion. And I think, oh, here comes cynical Robert Bannon.

[1:28:08] Robert Bannon: It's okay. It's okay.

[1:28:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think that for the show, they put it there, I think that it is a little manipulative in the sense that we feel really bad for her and we really feel bad for Evan Hansen. But he is a liar who has lied about a very traumatic moment, and even if he didn't intend to. And I think that, you know, it's a good dramatic mechanism to make us feel for him and her and build, you know, like you said, it's very well crafted for us not to not dislike Evan Hansen. He just came clean about lying to people who have just lost their son to suicide. The sister who had just fallen in love with her and used that to manipulate her feelings. Even my dog was upset about it.

[1:28:54] Robert Bannon: Cynical.

[1:28:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Maybe. But here's what I'll counter with. You know that old adage where if you get in a car accident and then you call your parents and you're like, I wrecked the car, and you want their first reaction to be, are you okay?

[1:29:13] Robert Bannon: Absolutely. Yes.

[1:29:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The car is a car. Are you okay? And I've always heard that and wanted to apply that to my life. I always want to think of the person first, the person that I care about more than the things, more than anything else. And I do think that that is Heidi's moment here, because she's been so absent. So she feels a little responsible, for sure, for him looking for comfort in the arms of a family that's actually home. And so when he reveals this, like, horrible secret that he thinks will make her hate him forever, she has to say, I love you, and it'll be okay.

[1:29:56] Robert Bannon: She has to.

[1:29:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She has to. And that's what a good, I don't want to say the words good and bad, but that's what a supportive parent would do. And even if you're mad at your child, and many of us don't have parents like this, and that's a caveat, but in the fantasized world or in the world we wish we lived in, or for many of us, the world we do live in, we do have parents that are supportive. I've put my parents on one hell of a rollercoaster ride in my life. And I'm very lucky that I have parents that when I got into my first car accident, my dad just asked no questions and showed up. But not a lot of people have that. But I think that her saying, I love you, regardless, even with this, is so important of a lesson for us as humanity to be sometimes forgiving, and to be understanding about the plight and the fight that we're all in here on this earth together.

I think that it is a very deep, moving moment. And I wish that a lot of mothers and fathers who maybe unfairly criticize or critique their children would take that into accountability that that moment that person came into this world, they were your most prized possession. They were the most important thing in your life, and they're not perfect. But I hope we never lose that sense of that love that she has for her son. And I hope that and wish that for everybody. I hope you never lose that sense of wonder.

[1:31:22] Robert Bannon: Yes. I hope you dance, Jeff.

[1:31:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Where is Leanne Womack? I don't know. You mentioned Natalie Grant. Now I just got all these songs in my head. So right after So Big, So Small, in the script, it says, time does its thing. And by time, it's years. Like how old is Evan? He's 17. So he may be, is he a junior? Or is he going into his senior year? What do you think?

[1:31:46] Robert Bannon: He's going into his senior year. I think 17. He's going into senior year. In the movie, he's going into his 40s.

[1:31:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I said we weren't talking about it.

[1:31:57] Robert Bannon: Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. In the play, he's only going into his late 20s. No, he is going into, I guess, senior year.

[1:32:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, like senior year, probably. In this passage of time, he's now in community college. So it's been at least a year, maybe more. And he's meeting Zoe in the apple place, in this orchard, because guess what? Alana wanted to get in college. She did raise the $175,000. They went through with the project. It's now the Connor Murphy Memorial Park with beautiful trees, all kind of built on this lie. But it's serene and gorgeous. And we talked about the design being all of these screens and technology. Then this final scene, all of that goes away. And now it's nature. Now it's a blue sky. Now it's trees and plants and things. And Evan meets Zoe there. They haven't talked since. Words fail. Evan hasn't talked to the Murphys at all.

They haven't talked to him. But they have come to the park quite a bit. Zoe says that it has been good for the parents. In many ways, it has saved them. So that's the very, very complicated ending where there was no cancel Evan Hansen online. Should there have been? Would that have done any good to anyone? No, probably not. Probably not. But I guess it maybe would have made a lot of Twitter users feel better. I don't know. I often wonder, is this an indictment on cancel culture? What good does it actually do? And if we're angry about Evan not being served time in jail or something like that when what came out of it was actually this beautiful park? I don't know. It's like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't have the answers.

[1:34:06] Robert Bannon: I don't have the answers either. I think that one of the most fun, smart thing I've heard about cancel culture and about the world we live in, in my humble little opinion, is when Chris Rock deemed it selective outrage. We pick and choose who we cancel. We pick and choose who we uncancel. We pick and choose what is important and bad enough that it's forever, or if it's just for a part or season. We pick and choose what shows we hate, what music we love. We pick and choose. I think that it's a very valid, everyone's entitled to their opinion.

[1:34:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. It's complex. I love it. I don't know if I always want to see it.

[1:34:39] Robert Bannon: No, I don't either. I think that the ending, like I said before, he was shamed by this family. He lost the girl. He had to come clean. Is it to the point where I would think it's realistic? The Avengers movies are not realistic, so why does it have to be realistic? You know what I mean? These are the artistic struggles I have in my head when people see a movie and they say, well, it's not realistic. Well, neither was Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory, but I love that movie. You know what I mean? I don't know. We selectively have issues with pieces of work based on our own feelings. For my feelings, I can't picture the Villagers theater in Somerset, New Jersey, doing the community theater version of Dear Evan Hansen in five years from now, because I don't know if it lives up to the times, but I do see and value the performances and the music and what they were trying to get across, I think is very valiant. Is that polite and professional?

[1:35:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. The thing about classics is, to quote Steven Levinson in the script, time does its thing. And with time, we will see whether the show is still the phenomenon that it was.

[1:35:55] Robert Bannon: Look, we can come on here and talk for four hours, and we can talk about Carousel and how it's not appropriate anymore. We could talk about many things, many shows that are out and about. And I think that in time, some pieces are classics and how they're written, and they're a piece of history. Does Dear Evan Hansen reflect our history at the time that it was told? Maybe it does. And maybe 50 years from now, we'll say, wow, remember when social media started? Remember what it was like when we canceled people? Remember? Maybe it is a slice and a chapter of our history, and that's what art is about.

[1:36:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, you're so right. It's something that needed to be documented. Don't you think that we'll look back and realize that maybe our greatest failure during this time was social media?

[1:36:44] Robert Bannon: I think that social media and watching the Netflix documentary on how the people at Facebook and Instagram and et cetera don't even understand the algorithm that's kind of taken on a life of its own. And as we look into politics and see things like misinformation and fake news being spread, because we are inundated with the kind of news that interests us instead of the truth, I think is a real big problem for democracy, for humanity. And I think that there is a segment of people who don't believe it. And this is not a Republican, Democratic, this is not my political statement. I think it's just social media can be used as a weapon against society. And I think that one day we will regret it.

[1:37:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and guess what, everybody? Follow me!

[1:37:35] Robert Bannon: That being said, I have some really great videos on TikTok that I'd love for you all to watch and share. No, but I was just going to say, like, speaking of accountability, there's a certain ex-president who is currently in court on trial for many of the lies that he has been said. And guess what? He's leading in the polls for president. So like, where's the accountability? And does it even matter? That's the scary thing. Maybe it doesn't even matter.

[1:38:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The truth, the truth of it, no matter how much mainstream media and mainstream news, which used to be the be all and end all of society, I mean, I'm probably a science major. I love politics. I'm obsessed with it. Because if you can't be in show business, you might as well be in politics. It's the same thing.

[1:38:22] Robert Bannon: I feel like, you know, the truth doesn't matter. We want to believe whatever we want to believe. And I don't think that that is great. I think that sometimes lies are lies. And cheating is cheating. And Dear Evan Hansen cheated. Or lied. He lied. But we all have, Jeff. So fine, you made me feel a little bit bad for this poor character. But I don't feel bad for Ben Platt, though.

[1:38:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, look, he can pay for dinner anytime because he can afford it.

[1:38:53] Robert Bannon: Yes, he can.

[1:38:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Robert, thank you so much for chatting with me. We have talked so long, and I feel like leaving it all in. I'm like, why not?

[1:39:02] Robert Bannon: The time flew by. I love your show.

[1:39:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, I'm so grateful for you. What a great conversation. You're professional. You do your homework, like you actually read and watch and do research. What is that? Teach me how to do that for my own show.

[1:39:16] Robert Bannon: Yeah, right.

[1:39:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, I need to have you come online, and I will come talk to you anytime you're a pleasure and a delight.

[1:39:23] Robert Bannon: Oh, thank you so much. Right back at you. As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Follow us on social media, even though I've just sat in for two hours and trashed it all. We're on X and Instagram and TikTok. At a musical podcast, we also have Patreon! Which we're having so much fun over there recently. I've been loving our episodes. You get bonus episodes, only $1 a month. Come and join us. We also have our TeePublic store, where the profits we receive all go to Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS. Hey, Robert, how do we follow you?

[1:40:04] Robert Bannon: You can follow me on the dreaded social media as well. You can go to Robert M. Bannon or at the Roundtable with Robert Bannon if you want to stay up to date. And I hope you listen to my brand new album called Rewind, which is my story about growing up here in New Jersey. Or come see me at Chelsea Table and Stage. We're doing a very special Christmas show with our mutual friend Robbie Roselle. And it's going to be a big, hot, stinky mess on December 9th, right in the middle of New York City. So I hope you'll come.

[1:40:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, that sounds like so much fun.

[1:40:32] Robert Bannon: Yeah. Check me out over on the Roundtable every day. Right after you're finished listening to a musical theater podcast, you can then listen to me and my mess.

[1:40:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Not a mess. A total joy. Thank you again, Robert. Everyone out there, thank you so much for listening. And remember, all we see is sky. Are those the words?

[1:40:55] Robert Bannon: Yes. All we see is sky for forever.

[1:40:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hmm. That's a good one to go out on.