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[0:00] Glenn Rosenblum: All right, so first of all, I want to go on the record saying that I love Fruma Sarah. I don't think we talk enough about her. No, Fruma Sarah is the actress who has to climb up onto that, um, on the person. Onto Dwayne, who probably has a sheet over his head. That's right. Dwayne, and did you just come up with the name Dwayne? I just came up with Dwayne, I don't know. Right, who comes up on Dwayne, and if she doesn't climb up on Dwayne, it's some reimagined Fiddler, and I don't want to see it.

[0:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the emotional and cultural impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. I'm a three-namer. Oh, my God, I'm laughing already. It's what I go by because it's on my birth certificate. Are you like Sally Ann Howes? Yeah. Okay. And my equity card, like it's all three names. Wow. Yeah. But please call me Jeff for the purpose of this podcast. Was there a Jeffrey Parsons already in Equity? No, no. I didn't. You just went for it. For me, it was either going to be Jeff Parsons, which was how I grew up, or Jeffrey Scott Parsons, because I didn't like Jeffrey Parsons. Wow. And I've interrupted your opening.

No, no. This is what I want. It's all about me. No. And thank goodness it is, because I'm so glad you're here. Oh, this is my dear friend, Glenn. Glenn Rosenblum. Here I am. And he is a connoisseur of musical theater. And obsessed. Are you okay with just saying that you're obsessed? Oh, yeah. Great. Because that makes two of us. Glenn and I first, I feel like we first bonded when we somehow convinced Musical Theater Guild here in Los Angeles to produce a one night only performance of Hallelujah, Baby. Yes. But I knew that you understood me when we did a staged reading of Promises, Promises. Oh, that's true. And you I played Mr. Dobitch. That was a realization. Now I'm old enough to play the Ray Walston role.

Congratulations. And you turn to me, you don't even remember. No, I don't. I don't. During the end production number of Act One and said, Did you ever think you'd be dancing Turkey Lurkey? I was like, No. And I'm a little hysterical because I was like, Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells, Jingle Bells. And I, you know, and I'm not a dancer, but they were like, we'll dance the way Mr. Dobitch. Everybody should have the opportunity to dance Turkey Lurkey time. I and then there was an actress, Kelly Dorney. Yes. Who is a friend of the podcast. Yes. Who I remember the musical director saying, Do you have that high soprano to go like, Jingle Bells? And she's like, Oh, no problem.

And she did it like 10 times in a row. Yeah. So that's when I well, how do you maybe is one thing? Sure. Yes. And you know, I was just ready to play Georgina. We couldn't find someone. I was like, Yeah, I and we did. We found someone. Yes. Sharon Brown, who's on the tour of once on once on this island. She is. Yeah. Oh, my goodness. Okay. We are focused, though. Today we are talking about Fiddler on the Roof, or as my people back in Utah would say, Fiddler on the Roof, the roof. I'm I'm actually okay with saying at this point in my life that Fiddler on the Roof is my favorite musical. Really? Yes. And because I think that is a question that everyone loves to ask and no one likes to answer. And I think I'm finally at the point where I'm like, Yes, Fiddler is my favorite.

Wow. My you want to know what mine is in my lecture? I told it yesterday. Yeah. Gypsy. Oh, we'll see. That's in my top three. Yeah. Because I in my thing, if you take the music out of Gypsy, it's still fantastic. Sure. Shows how strong it is. But I have to tell you, Fiddler's in my top three because Fiddler is perfect. So we're going to start, I think, by talking a little bit about its inception. Let's start with Bach and Harnick.

[4:34] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, all right. So we got Jerry Bach, composer Sheldon Harnick, lyricist who's still alive. Yes. He came and saw a production of Fiddler that I was in. That's I would faint and have to be put in a straitjacket. So I'm like, how many? And you know, it was kind of one of those moments where, you know, Aretha Franklin probably sang Respect a gazillion times, but I would still give it her all. I was like, how many times has Sheldon Harnick had to sit through a production of Fiddler on the refrain? And yet he was still so gracious and seemingly, you know, excited to give us compliments. I'm like, you have seen the show. Who did you play? Who did you play? I was Abramson. Oh, but you could be a Fiat.

I was a replacement because I had been doing a production of 42nd Street at the time, and we just closed in like the day before we closed. Whoever was in Fiddler went skiing and broke his wrist. Oh, so Eve Harrington. Yeah. So I went in and stole his bagels. That's fabulous. So they started out their partnership as a composing team doing The Body Beautiful, which I know nothing about. The Body Beautiful. There's an album. Yeah, there's an album. So then the next thing they do is Fiorello, one of the very few musicals that won the Pulitzer Prize. It's about, you know, LaGuardia. Not the airport. It's not about the airport. It's about how the airport has been under construction since I since nineteen fifty nine.

So, no, it's about the mayor of New York, right? And it's a part for a short fat man. Tom Bosley. Hey, I still have a Fiorello in me. I didn't think about that. OK, that's got to happen. So it wins the Pulitzer. It wins best musical tying with The Sound of Music. It's the only time that Tony won the Tony. Yeah, right. It's the only time where two musicals have tied for best musical. It was Sound of Music and Fiorello. And everyone's like, of course, Sound of Music. And nobody remembers Fiorello. After that, they're like kind of riding high. They write Tenderloin, which is a flop, but it has great songs, artificial flowers and that little old New York. Such a great opener. We never miss a Maurice Evans musical.

Wow. If anybody gets half of these jokes, I will consider this podcast. That wasn't even a joke. That wasn't even a joke. OK, Tenderloin comes and goes. It has great songs. Who makes artificial flowers a big hit? Oh, was it Nancy? Oh, Bobby Darin. Was it Bobby Darin? I think it was Bobby Darin. So even though it's a flop, some of the songs are still really popular. After that, they're looking for their next big thing. They find two properties. They find the shop around the corner. Right. Right. Which becomes She Loves Me. And they find Jerry Bach sees the stories of Shalom Aleichem. Shalom Aleichem. Yeah. So he's the Mark Twain of Russia. Correct. Right. And that's a non-diplom. What are they?

Sure. That's that Israel name. Which is so beautiful because both of those words mean peace and right. Exactly. Namaste. Yes. Right. It's amazing. Peaceful. He was the Yiddish Mark Twain. Yeah. Yeah. He has all of these stories. Jerry Bach wants to turn him into this musical kind of about a Yiddish theater company. They send it to Joseph Stein, who's a book writer. He had done Plain and Fancy, which I did Plain and Fancy in summers. I can still see the opening. And Joseph Stein is like, this is too complex. We can't do that. Right. However, and it sounds awful, doesn't it? Well, I mean, like, really? Yeah. But then he has the idea to specifically take one of his stories, which is about Tevye, the milkman, and his five daughters and two of which don't do anything in the musical.

I know. What is it? Bielka and Sprint's not Spielberg means like I'm nervous. Sure. It's Sprint's. OK. Yeah. Yeah. That's the biggest thing they have to do is we're going to America. We're going to America. And Golda gives them the that's they wait all evening to just to do their one thing. Uh-huh. I think they even leave the stage for Matchmaker. Yeah, you're right. Because it's just got to be the three. Yeah. OK, so then the brooms, we do not want a production without those brooms. Oh, if I don't see the mops, I'm this is not a production for me. Agreed. I love the mops. I know people think they're cheesy, but I'm here for them. Oh, OK. So then they decide, great, we're going to write a musical about Tevye and his daughters.

However, they want how Prince to direct and how Prince is like, no, I want to do She Loves Me. Oh, right. But, you know, who would be great for this is Jerome Robbins. Jerome Robbins. We need to talk about Jerome Robbins eventually, because he's one of my heroes. I worship him. And yet I also totally recognize that he stands for everything that I don't believe humans should be self-hating every day. But it was another time we can give him a bit of a pass. I'll grace. I'll give him some. Oh, there's so Mormon of you. So they decide to focus on She Loves Me because that's the one that Prince wants to do. Yes. And they'll wait for Jerry Robbins to get Jerry. Yes. And my friend Jerry, friend Jerry, to become available for Fiddler.

So they do She Loves Me, which is the sweetest, most perfect little gem of a show. And just beautiful, sweet music. Yeah. And will he like me? Oh, right. Where's my other shoe? A trip to the library. Come on. Stop it. All right. She Loves Me comes and goes. Jerome Robbins is finally available. So then Fiddler happens. Here's the thing. Here's kind of what I wonder is that in looking at all of these shows that Bach and Harnick do, obviously they can craft a great tune. Yes. Right. A hummable to a sensational little show tune. But they do tend to make these kind of sweet little perfect gems of a musical. That's right. And Fiddler feels like it's the one show that's that is beyond that. That's kind of epic.

Right. Storytelling. Yes. Which makes me think that it is in part due to Jerome Robbins. Wow. I think he from the books I've read and the new documentary that was just out. Yes. He really got them to focus to he asked knew how to ask the right question. And it was kind of the whole thing was what is this show about? And that's why the show will talk. Well, yeah, that's why every culture thinks that it's about their culture. Well, sure. And but like by asking that question over and over again, and it wasn't a simple right question to answer. What is the show about? What is at the heart of the show? You know, oh, it's about this family. It's right. Heavy. It's about his relationships. Absolutely.

Yes. But what the answer they finally realized was that it is about tradition, which would get which gave birth to this fantastic opening number and kind of became the through line for the entire structure of the show. Do we hold on to our true? Yeah. From the I and so cohesively. Right. So tight. What is tradition from the script, from the music, from the staging? It's incredible. Like it's it all is so anchored. It's isn't that unbelievable? It is. But they managed to do it. They wrote this freaking awesome show that I love so much. It's so beautiful. So let's talk a little bit about the plot. Just kind of go through the show a little bit and talk about our favorite bits. Tradition, obviously, is one of the best opening numbers.

So yesterday I rewatched the film version, which is just a prep, which is pretty great. It is. It's fantastic. And literally from, you know, he says, I can say in one word tradition. And then the orchestra comes into that room with those movie orchestrations. Yeah. John Williams, by the way, those orchestrations crazy, but chills every single time. It's incredible. It's such a such an amazing way to begin. Unbelievable. And the thought I had while watching that opener yesterday is do it was hard enough, I'm sure, to get Fiddler produced in the time that they did, because it was so Jewish. And they were worried about whether there was an audience after all the Jews in New York, Tri-State area. Yeah. Like who else were like our tourists after the Benet Hadassah groups come from, you know, Hewlett, who else is right to see?

[13:31] Glenn Rosenblum: Exactly, and they managed to convince, you know, producers, but I think because the work spoke for itself that it was going to connect to people of all races and cultures. But as I was watching "Tradition" yesterday, I thought, could we do something like this? Today, yes, but who's gonna go see a rap musical about, but specifically about organized religion? Because I think of "The Book of Mormon," which is a title that I have no bias toward. Well, I don't even know what you think about it. I think when I hear people criticize it, they haven't seen it because it's actually such a beautiful show about religion and about belief. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I was not offended by it.

[14:25] Jeff Parsons: You weren't? No, I never asked you that.

[14:28] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, look what I'm learning! No, I always say like my joke is always that when I was watching "The Book of Mormon," I thought, oh, this is how real orphans must feel while watching "Annie."

[14:42] Jeff Parsons: It's very funny.

[14:43] Glenn Rosenblum: Where you're like, well, that's cute. That's entirely, yeah, right. However, you look at it, and I do not need "The Book of Mormon" to be like the LDS version of it, right? Like that's not what I'm asking for. But you look at "Tradition," and Tevye is, you know, introducing his prayer shawl and that he always wears his hat on his head, and these are traditions, and it keeps us close to God, right? And you sit there and you watch it very objectively, and you're like, oh, that's sweet. I'm getting to know these people; I'm getting to know their culture. And you put that right next to "The Book of Mormon," where the undergarments is just a sight gag, right? So I wonder if as a society we are just too cynical at this point.

[15:35] Jeff Parsons: Maybe to have a hit still does well, but that's why we have revivals.

[15:40] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, you know, because I don't want to be cynical, but how I'm feeling with like current musical theater is musicals are kind of one of two things on Broadway. They're either they fall in the category of cool, which is hot people or pop contemporary music that requires like really fantastic high belting singing, right? Or self-aware, right, which is self-aware music. Yeah, which is like wink-wink, we know we're doing a musical; we're in on the joke.

[16:17] Jeff Parsons: Oh, yeah.

[16:18] Glenn Rosenblum: So it's either a cool musical or a self-aware musical, and I don't think "Fiddler" is either one of those things, and pretty much most of the musical theater from the Golden Age aren't either of those things, and that's why we have revivals is because there needs to be something. I saw two revivals of "Fiddler" this year alone.

[16:39] Jeff Parsons: See?

[16:40] Glenn Rosenblum: Go figure! The Yiddish one and I saw one at the Menier Chocolate Factory in London.

[16:48] Jeff Parsons: How sweet!

[16:52] Glenn Rosenblum: Okay, so "Tradition" happens. By the way, what is your favorite verse of "Tradition"? Because you know, they do the four different, you know, the mothers, the fathers, the daughters, the sons; they all have their own verse, and they sing them in counterpoint.

[17:05] Jeff Parsons: I actually like the mothers.

[17:09] Glenn Rosenblum: I agree. I think the mothers have the best one, and the sons have the worst.

[17:16] Jeff Parsons: Horrible.

[17:17] Glenn Rosenblum: So "Tradition" is great. Then we meet Tevye and his family. Yes. Now, I just have a question because I don't want— is it rhetorical or to me?

[17:33] Jeff Parsons: No, it's like it's actually a question for you.

[17:36] Glenn Rosenblum: How would you describe Golda?

[17:39] Jeff Parsons: How would I? Well, she's the mother of—

[17:45] Glenn Rosenblum: She's a mother and a wife, and she's also an anchor of the story, really.

[17:49] Jeff Parsons: That's great. My first introduction to "Fiddler" was back home in Utah. All of the congregations got together in our area to put on a production of "Fiddler," and my mom played the piano. I was young enough that I wasn't in the show; I remember going to the rehearsals and watching, and Mrs. Scott Parsons was playing—Carlo was playing the piano, and she's fantastic. But my mom is such a sweet, kind woman that to see a woman like Golda—

[18:24] Glenn Rosenblum: Was she shrill to you?

[18:28] Jeff Parsons: She— and as an adult, I look back and I don't hate Golda.

[18:36] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah.

[18:36] Jeff Parsons: But I feel like— is that a big cultural difference, say, with just Jewish mothers in general? My mother wasn't like that.

[18:40] Glenn Rosenblum: But yes, that I think it's almost made me a stereotype. Is it like, you know, the one that the Jewish woman that the Jewish woman that the Jewish woman that the Jewish woman that the Jewish woman that the Jewish woman that the Jewish woman rules the house, right?

[19:01] Jeff Parsons: Right, but you know the Jewish— and I'm certainly not— I'm Jewish, but I'm not so knowledgeable about the intricacies.

[19:08] Glenn Rosenblum: It is ironic that your take as a Mormon was, "Wow, what's going on there?" Yet in the religion, and still the Orthodox, the women were still subservient, not allowed, you know, the women have to sit upstairs; they can't dance; they have to be on this side of the road. Women are really treated like second-class.

[19:30] Jeff Parsons: Sure, because like, you know, Dad is the one who reads the holy book, and they're sort of the baby makers.

[19:36] Glenn Rosenblum: That's me. This is my opinion.

[19:39] Jeff Parsons: Well, and okay, so we meet Golda; we learn that Tevye has five daughters, right? Three of which are in the mood to get married at some point in the— well, forced marriage, right?

[19:57] Glenn Rosenblum: We'll call it arranged.

[19:59] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, yeah, exactly, because we've got Yente the matchmaker.

[20:04] Glenn Rosenblum: Yes, who was played in the original Broadway production by Bea Arthur.

[20:11] Jeff Parsons: Thank you, known as Beatrice Arthur.

[20:15] Glenn Rosenblum: Since we're up to the matchmaker now, yes, may I say that what the revelation that I got from the documentary—and it might be in that Barbara Eisenberg book that you know that there's a book all about "Fiddler"? Yes, but there's a new documentary called "Miracle of Miracles," and what I didn't realize— I hope you don't— I'm gonna see if your face lights up this—that "Fiddler" is one of the most intense feminist musicals ever written.

[20:36] Jeff Parsons: Oh!

[20:42] Glenn Rosenblum: You bet you! That's rough. That's news to you?

[20:45] Jeff Parsons: Think about it! Even in the song that—and this documentary talks, they talk about "Matchmaker." It seems like for an hour, really, because they realize, "I don't know if I want to be matched; maybe I shouldn't; please don't make him drunk."

[21:01] Glenn Rosenblum: Don't make him this.

[21:02] Jeff Parsons: And when you think about the journey of the three daughters, the other two don't do anything, as we said. Those three daughters—think about it!

[21:13] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, right!

[21:17] Jeff Parsons: One is like, "I'm marrying Muddle because I love him." I'm going with the Russian who's not Jewish, and I'm willing to leave the family for it, and the other one wants to be like a progressive proponent for change, correct? Which would mean maybe she was the beginning of all the—I don't know when the reform movement started.

[21:36] Glenn Rosenblum: That's so—that's really cool.

[21:38] Jeff Parsons: Hey everybody, I hope you're enjoying the very first episode of "A Musical Theatre Podcast." I want to take some time real quick to talk to you about my friends at Studio C Performing Arts. Now, they're located in Westlake Village, California, about 40 minutes northwest of LA, and they are dedicated to teens and young adults seeking professional training in all areas of the musical theater experience. Their classes and workshops are taught by industry pros in very small groups and private settings to accelerate triple threat skills. And if that wasn't enough, Studio C is also a producing entity, creating professional opportunities to audition for and perform in shows like "All Shook Up," "Thoroughly Modern Millie," "Freaky Friday," and their upcoming production of "Heathers." In short, they're blowing up now!

[22:24] Glenn Rosenblum: They've recently announced an expansion that will allow for self-tape and voiceovers and have welcomed a partnership with Born to Perform Studios to give even more ages the opportunities to explore the magic of musical theater. So look, at the very least, go check them out on Instagram at SC Performing Arts to keep up with all things Studio C. And if you're in Southern California, be sure to stop by to take a class, audition, or buy tickets to one of their shows. In fact, since Studio C are our friends, they're offering a special deal to our listeners: drop in and take a dance class, and if you mention "A Musical Theatre Podcast," you'll only pay 10 bucks. That's it! That's 50% off a regular priced dance class.

I can't think of any place where you can get a $10 dance class, so take them up on that offer. Go to studiocperformingarts.com or once again, SC Performing Arts on Instagram to see their full schedule. And don't forget to mention "A Musical Theatre Podcast" to get your $10 dance class.

[23:27] Jeff Parsons: I can't remember what I was talking—oh, I'm sorry, I interrupted so much.

[23:33] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, we were up to "Matchmaker."

[23:33] Jeff Parsons: Oh, yeah.

[23:34] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, let's keep going. So "Matchmaker" happens. We find out that Tzeitel, the oldest daughter, wants to marry her childhood friend. Like, they've been friends forever, and why shouldn't they be? They're so cute! Actually, this is a great opportunity to play "Marry, Date, or Dump." Now, "Marry, Date, or Dump" is a G-rated version of the idea of the other one, which I've only seen Andy Cohen do this.

[24:05] Jeff Parsons: Oh, really?

[24:06] Glenn Rosenblum: This is a thing. We're gonna play "Marry, Date, or Dump" with the three suitors for the daughters. So you've got Muddle, the tailor who goes with Tzeitel; you've got Perchick, who's the revolutionary, I guess; and then you've got Fiedka, the Russian who goes with Hava.

[24:16] Jeff Parsons: That's your part, Fiedka.

[24:16] Glenn Rosenblum: You think so? That's who—well, he has to dance. Well, sometimes.

[24:23] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, well, I guess in a dinner theater production he does.

[24:27] Glenn Rosenblum: So, okay, so of those three, who would you marry? Who would you dump? Who would you date?

[24:30] Jeff Parsons: Me? Yeah, you're on.

[24:33] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, because to me, I feel like this is a very clear-cut possibility. I would marry Muddle.

[24:39] Jeff Parsons: Mm-hmm.

[24:40] Glenn Rosenblum: Here's a job! Come on! That is a good father; that is like—that's good. That's solid partnership.

[24:45] Jeff Parsons: Oh, and date—what's his name? The Bert Convy part?

[24:48] Glenn Rosenblum: Perchick.

[24:49] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, date Perchick.

[24:50] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, and dump Fiedka, although you—dating Fiedka would be a really interesting evening.

[24:55] Jeff Parsons: I would say I say dump Perchick. Stop telling me how much you know.

[25:04] Glenn Rosenblum: I'm not interested for—I'm getting the Mormon.

[25:19] Jeff Parsons: Okay, so now let's do Tevye's daughters because—

[25:21] Glenn Rosenblum: No, you didn't do marry.

[25:27] Jeff Parsons: Oh, did we find out from you?

[25:27] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[25:29] Jeff Parsons: So marry Muddle, of course. Yeah, that's just—that's a no-brainer.

[25:32] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah.

[25:33] Jeff Parsons: Date Fiedka, yeah, because I think you're right. I don't think you want to be married to Fiedka, but like go to dinner.

[25:39] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah.

[25:40] Jeff Parsons: And then dump Perchick because he's tortured.

[25:45] Glenn Rosenblum: I'm gonna change mine to yours. Yeah, I like what it makes or so my—I was crazy.

[25:50] Jeff Parsons: Of course, of course, we want to go to dinner with Fiedka.

[25:55] Glenn Rosenblum: Perfect. Okay, no marry dates. I'm thinking let's do Tzeitel, Hodel, and Hava, which I think is up for debate much more.

[26:03] Glenn Rosenblum: I would want to marry Tzeitel.

[26:08] Jeff Parsons: Okay, yeah.

[26:11] Glenn Rosenblum: I think I would go marry Hodel because she's got a brain on her.

[26:15] Jeff Parsons: Yes, she does.

[26:20] Glenn Rosenblum: I would date Hava because she seems really sweet, but of everyone, right, a wild girl of those girls, I think she's the one who's most likely to turn into Golda, which we've already established terrifies me.

[26:31] Jeff Parsons: And then probably dump Tzeitel because she's just a worrywart.

[26:40] Glenn Rosenblum: She is, but also kind of the eldest, right?

[26:47] Jeff Parsons: Syndrome.

[26:48] Glenn Rosenblum: Okay, so now let's do—no, lay since I'm older than you—let's marry Lazar Wolf.

[26:54] Jeff Parsons: Oh my gosh, no!

[26:57] Glenn Rosenblum: Poor Lazar! You know, so...

[27:02] Glenn Rosenblum: Been promised to Laser Wolf by Tevye like they've gone together. They drank, which was set up by Yenta.

[27:12] Jeff Parsons: Yes, because he has a good dowry and he's a rich shop. He's a rich dude.

[27:16] Glenn Rosenblum: Yes, he also has a dead wife named Fruma Sarah, who we know is my favorite. I guess we should say that when Laser Wolf and Tevye make the deal, they do a huge dance number to "Life," which is amazing. And there's always a Russian soloist, yes, who is often played by Fyedka, but not always. That's funny. And when I did it in dinner theater—

[27:38] Jeff Parsons: Oh, no, never. I know where I've jumped to the wedding.

[27:40] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, okay. I had to do the bottle dance.

[27:45] Jeff Parsons: You had to do it?

[27:48] Glenn Rosenblum: And it never dropped, ever. How do you like that?

[27:51] Jeff Parsons: That's great.

[27:51] Glenn Rosenblum: Well, I think that the choreography was like walking. Just like, look, I turned around and I turned. I would say that my—if I had a complaint with the movie version, which I once again watched last night, it would be that I don't feel like the director knew how to film dancing very well.

[28:05] Jeff Parsons: Norman Jewison, which funny enough, not a Jew, that which is brought up.

[28:11] Glenn Rosenblum: I knew it, but it was brought up in the documentary. It's a big part of the documentary. So they're in that little café bar or whatever, you know, drinking.

[28:21] Jeff Parsons: Thank you.

[28:21] Glenn Rosenblum: And he was in a bistro. They were in the bistro, and Anna—it was a gastropub in Silver Lake.

[28:28] Jeff Parsons: And there's a Brussels sprouts, Tevye. I'll see the avocado toast.

[28:34] Glenn Rosenblum: Yes, and the thing is it could be in slowly because it's just so small, exactly. And I totally understand why he did that because everything about the film is very realism-based, but it doesn't do great things for finding great camera angles for dance.

[28:59] Jeff Parsons: Well, he did two musicals. I think that in "Jesus Christ Superstar."

[29:06] Glenn Rosenblum: Okay, so till life happens, then Tevye realizes Model and Tzeitel want to get married. Tzeitel doesn't want to get married to Laser Wolf, and it's such a beautiful scene when Tzeitel plays it right because you just see the love and care that he has for his daughter.

[29:23] Jeff Parsons: I agree.

[29:25] Glenn Rosenblum: And it's so beautiful, and it really is kind of the catalyst for the rest of the show, which is how much—now the train starts rolling. Yeah, how much do you love your children? Do you love them more than these quote-unquote traditions that you think bring you safety in your life?

[29:39] Jeff Parsons: That's right.

[29:41] Glenn Rosenblum: And so he decides to let them get married, which means that now he has to convince his wife, Golda, how about with the rules? To how on earth are we going to get out of this agreement that we've made, which is brilliant? They write a brilliant musical conceit. And so he makes up this dream that Laser Wolf's dead wife, Fruma Sarah, comes back from the grave as a sober Ethel with pearls—always with pearls—and threatens that if Tzeitel marries Laser Wolf, she will come to her by night and like—

[30:28] Jeff Parsons: Just performing the entire—

[30:30] Glenn Rosenblum: It's such a great moment. It's so theatrical, so over-the-top, but like exactly what you want at that point in the story in terms of a little bit of fantasy.

[30:39] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[30:39] Glenn Rosenblum: I also think I need to say that I think Fruma Sarah is probably my introduction to loving the film "Hocus Pocus," which is my god, which is basically three Fruma Sarahs for the price of one.

[30:56] Jeff Parsons: I couldn't like you more.

[30:59] Glenn Rosenblum: But Bette Midler is one of his in "Hocus Pocus." So Bette Midler, Kathy Najimy, and who's the third? Sarah Jessica Parker.

[31:05] Jeff Parsons: Oh, all—who's—God love her. I mean, I love all of them, but there's the other tie-in.

[31:12] Glenn Rosenblum: So "Hocus Pocus" is basically Fruma Sarah times three.

[31:16] Jeff Parsons: I am so happy right now that you have no idea.

[31:21] Glenn Rosenblum: That is delicious. Yeah, but my point being there is a "Fiddler" tie-in because Bette Midler was the original Tzeitel, not the replacement.

[31:32] Jeff Parsons: Yes, she replaced that Joanna Merlin.

[31:40] Glenn Rosenblum: Joanna Merlin's casting director. Is she really?

[31:43] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. Sorry, Joanna. I auditioned for her. Hire me whenever you want. Have you ever seen that performance on the Tony Awards?

[31:47] Glenn Rosenblum: Yes, so on YouTube, for those who haven't seen it, you can go on YouTube and type in Bette Midler "Fiddler on the Roof," and there's a performance, I think from like 1968 or something.

[31:54] Jeff Parsons: Yes, that's right, and they're doing a little review of some of the musicals that have won Best Musical that are still playing on Broadway, and Bette Midler's not bad.

[32:07] Glenn Rosenblum: Kirchhoff on, and Bette Midler is doing "Matchmaker" with two other women.

[32:11] Jeff Parsons: That's Adrian Barbeau, one of them.

[32:11] Glenn Rosenblum: Adrian Barbeau was a Tzeitel.

[32:13] Jeff Parsons: So, okay. So no. Yeah. Anyway, okay, wow. Sorry, my god, all over the place.

[32:21] Glenn Rosenblum: This is what this podcast is going to be, is just all of this musical theater trivia, and please, for those who are listening, latch on to whatever you want because the canon is deep. The river runs deep in terms of musical theater.

[32:33] Jeff Parsons: But yeah, go and look at that clip because Bette Midler is serving it. She's doing great, great work, and you can see the original Jerome Robbins "Matchmaker" choreo, which is just—it works so well and is so clean, and they perform it so well.

[32:48] Glenn Rosenblum: If I don't see those sliding mops, do not take me to that "Fiddler."

[32:53] Jeff Parsons: I got you.

[32:53] Glenn Rosenblum: I got you, and I will store that information for my future productions.

[32:58] Jeff Parsons: Okay, the dream works. Golda's like—

[33:05] Glenn Rosenblum: So spit on our two fingers, heaven. Then Model and Tzeitel are gonna get married. In the meantime, Tevye has met this revolutionary, Perchick, who is a teacher, and he invites him to come and start teaching his daughters.

[33:23] Jeff Parsons: That's right.

[33:23] Glenn Rosenblum: Stories from the Bible.

[33:23] Jeff Parsons: That's right. Perchick meets Hodel. They start—there's some—the connection.

[33:30] Glenn Rosenblum: There's a spark.

[33:33] Jeff Parsons: There's a spark, and we find out their true intentions during the wedding, right?

[33:41] Glenn Rosenblum: During—which is unbelievable. So they start singing "Sunrise, Sunset" for the wedding.

[33:43] Jeff Parsons: I know. Now I am too young to have been alive when I feel like "Sunrise, Sunset" was playing non-stop everywhere at all times, even at bar mitzvahs.

[34:00] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, forget it. Like everybody recorded that song, and it was sung at every wedding and bar mitzvah that I went to.

[34:07] Jeff Parsons: Really? That's adorable. Did you have one—a bar mitzvah?

[34:12] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, uh-huh. I'm sure they played "Sunrise."

[34:18] Jeff Parsons: It's a better—oh, going back to—sorry. Yeah, I'm going back to the dream. Can we talk a little bit about Grandma Tzeitel? Because she's always just like a skeleton dusted with powdered sugar, right?

[34:27] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, I just—I find her to be childlike.

[34:31] Jeff Parsons: We could almost have the little girl playing Bielke play Grandma Tzeitel so she now she has something else to do.

[34:37] Glenn Rosenblum: That's funny. Perhaps just a little more money if it was an equity production.

[34:46] Jeff Parsons: She gets a bump. I get it.

[34:46] Glenn Rosenblum: Okay. And I also skipped "Miracle of Miracles."

[34:55] Jeff Parsons: Oh, yeah, which I cried several times while watching the movie yesterday.

[35:00] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, and I used to think that that song was dorky.

[35:08] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[35:08] Glenn Rosenblum: I will totally admit that I used to think it was dorky, and now it makes me cry. I just think it's such a pure celebration of love and joy and is probably one of the—and one of the reasons why I think musical theater can be so confronting to us as humans because it's so vulnerable. It's so vulnerable and honest and earnest to sing "I love you," that it feels uncomfortable. We're not okay with that discomfort, and so then we decide that musicals are dumb or stupid.

[35:33] Jeff Parsons: But I don't know. I would really—if there are any, you know, grad students out there willing to do a project, I think it would be really interesting to look at the relationship between people who think—who are uncomfortable with musicals and people who are just uncomfortable with vulnerability in general.

[35:51] Glenn Rosenblum: It's so interesting.

[35:51] Jeff Parsons: Oh, that's fascinating.

[35:51] Glenn Rosenblum: You know, you really hit it because I—obviously when I was younger, I would hear that song and think, "Oh my gosh, like he's such a nerd for doing this," right? And now, being, you know, feeling much more comfortable with feeling and knowing who I am, I recognize how sweet and joyful it is—a sweet number.

[36:13] Jeff Parsons: So then they get married, their "Sunrise, Sunset" after they get married. There's a big dance, obviously, with the bottle dance, which is—I guess this would be a great time to talk about Jerome Robbins.

[36:27] Glenn Rosenblum: Yes, who did quite a bit of research going into this show. I mean, he was Jewish. I think his original name was Rubin.

[36:34] Jeff Parsons: Oh, yes.

[36:34] Glenn Rosenblum: But he was always attending Orthodox weddings and celebrations to kind of look at how—and he would drag along his costume designers and stuff to be paying attention to how people dress.

[36:47] Jeff Parsons: Can they talk about this in the documentary?

[36:51] Glenn Rosenblum: I believe so. The boisterous dancing, even though the Orthodox religion is so dry in a way, that there's this boisterous dancing with the men only. There's definitely a piece of my culture in there because my ancestors, you know, were absolutely the pioneers walking to Utah. You know, that's why I was told that the Mormons feel that it's their story.

[37:15] Jeff Parsons: I mean, it really—it's the story about my people that isn't about my people.

[37:20] Glenn Rosenblum: Because you—the Anatevka for the Mormons is somewhere in New York, and then they find—they started out in Kirtland.

[37:27] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, then they went to Missouri.

[37:30] Glenn Rosenblum: In Missouri, there's like an extermination order set out against them. So then they go to Nauvoo, Illinois, which it was commerce, and they named Nauvoo and built a city there. Then the mobs came and drove them out of that place, and so then they just started going west, and when they reached, you know, Salt Lake, that's when Salt Lake City—that's when Brigham Young was like, "Well, here's the place," right? And because my ancestors are those people who, you know, who are walking with their handcarts to Salt Lake, we talk about this every year. You know, this is definitely a part of our tradition where we, you know, celebrate the sacrifices of them, you know, walking. It's the Jews walking through the desert. So it's so similar.

[38:14] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, like I mean, I know, and I don't mean to say that my people have suffered in the way that those of the Jewish faith have. There's, you know, no comparison, but there is a degree of connection in terms of humanity when I look at what does an exodus do to a culture.

[38:31] Glenn Rosenblum: It's amazing. It's something that you keep in your mind.

[38:36] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, so what I know about my pioneer ancestors is that every night they—I mean, they were walking all day, right, pushing handcarts, and then at night they were singing and dancing.

[38:49] Glenn Rosenblum: Amazing.

[38:49] Jeff Parsons: Which, as a dancer, blows my mind because the last thing I would want to do is be on my feet. Let me go to bed, right? But they felt the need to celebrate, right? And so there was always a lot of singing and dancing at the end of, you know, around the campfires or whatever, and it reminds me of this.

[39:06] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, in terms of, you know, a very conservative Orthodox culture that is—you know, when Jerry Robbins said that—keep calling him Jerry—your pal Jerry.

[39:23] Jeff Parsons: My apartment chair.

[39:23] Glenn Rosenblum: That he would go to these weddings and like, right, would dance with them and would be covered in sweat because he'd be dancing so hard with everyone. And so the idea that there's this release and celebration as a people and in terms of connection, I think he found very inspiring as a choreographer.

[39:41] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, it's thrilling, and he was able to really bring it. I think—and oh my gosh, it's amazing. Now, he is also known for being kind of the meanest person in the world on earth.

[39:55] Glenn Rosenblum: And I don't understand why he needed to be so mean because there's a difference between—and here's—okay, this is a pet peeve I have is when people say, "Oh, well, he was a perfectionist," and I'm like, "Stop using that word as a compliment."

[40:11] Jeff Parsons: I agree.

[40:11] Glenn Rosenblum: It's not. It's like a curse, if anything. Perfectionism is a curse because it doesn't exist. So then what—who is this person who, like, is so terrified to make a mistake or is so controlling over all of the elements that he has to be so cruel and mean to people?

[40:33] Glenn Rosenblum: I don't know, he's a conundrum for me, but oh my god, genius. Because, well, we already talked about how, we talked about how Gypsy is possibly your number one in my top three. That's right. And in my top three are probably Fiddler, Gypsy, and West Side, and the through line through them all is Jerome Robbins. That's right. So I don't know what to do. The work is great, but I want to believe that you can be a better human being and not be humiliated and terrified. Oh my god, there's no way that, I mean, there's no way he was happy, right? No, he was not a happy, could not be a happy person. I mean, I never met him.

[41:19] Jeff Parsons: No.

[41:22] Glenn Rosenblum: You're looking at me like you're old. Have you?

[41:28] Jeff Parsons: I auditioned for Jerome Robbins Broadway, but he wasn't there.

[41:34] Glenn Rosenblum: All right, so Jerome Robbins, earlier, you know, before Fiddler on the Roof was brought before the House of... and what is it? American Activities, is that right?

[41:49] Jeff Parsons: I just know musicals.

[41:52] Glenn Rosenblum: No, at the House on America. Well, and so they bring him, they bring Jerome Robbins in and he tattles on a bunch of people. And what ends up happening? But do you know why he tattled?

[42:01] Jeff Parsons: I think because he was afraid that he would be outed otherwise.

[42:07] Glenn Rosenblum: It was another time. So he tells on a bunch of people. What ends up happening is Zero Mostel is, for what, not his directly, but I think, but it comes out. Yes, he ends up becoming blacklisted. Now, Zero Mostel was the original Tevye, and at that point, his career was really kind of blowing up. He was, you know, making, he was finding a lot of work in TV, film, as well as being a Broadway star. And then the blacklisting thing happens, and it completely squashes his career for some time. So that was all basically because of Jerome Robbins, right? Fast forward now, all of this time, he knows that Jerome Robbins is going to be the director. I'm imagining this person who was, you know, responsible for his blacklisting for so long, and then they had to work together on this piece.

I heard that when I can't remember if it was the first rehearsal for Fiddler or the first rehearsal for Forum, but everybody was waiting to see how Zero and Jerome Robbins were going. So I think it's Fiddler because I think, yeah, yeah. And Zero said, "Hi, loose lips." That's very funny. And everybody laughed, and Jerome Robbins even laughed, and so it really put everybody at ease a little bit. But I, but there are also a lot of other stories where I can, Zero is very hurt for a very, very long time about all of that.

[43:38] Jeff Parsons: And what do you think of Zero Mostel? I was, you know, in preparation for this, I was gonna try and find Rhinoceros.

[43:44] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, for those who don't know, Zero Mostel, the original Max Bialystock in the Producers film, right, in the '70s?

[43:50] Jeff Parsons: Not the '60s.

[43:56] Glenn Rosenblum: I was in the '60s. Okay, so from the '60s. He also, they did a weird movie version of Forum, which is, that's so awful, but that he's in. And then Rhinoceros, which is what he won a Tony Award for right before Fiddler.

[44:07] Jeff Parsons: That's right, and I haven't ever seen that film.

[44:14] Glenn Rosenblum: I have, yeah. Yeah, I think I saw it when I was young.

[44:21] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, I think it's weird.

[44:21] Glenn Rosenblum: Well, it's, yeah, isn't it? I am, I ask, oh yeah, so...

[44:28] Jeff Parsons: For everyone's taste or...

[44:28] Glenn Rosenblum: But he was, he was a very well-respected dramatic actor.

[44:34] Jeff Parsons: Absolutely.

[44:34] Glenn Rosenblum: Just kind of an artist man, right?

[44:40] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, I think he was really into painting.

[44:44] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, he loved classical music.

[44:48] Jeff Parsons: Renaissance.

[44:48] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, sure, but then at the same time, people often complained about him just kind of going off the rails in terms of performing this show.

[44:56] Jeff Parsons: Yes.

[44:56] Glenn Rosenblum: When I saw, I saw him do a revival of Fiddler in '19, maybe '77 in the round of Westbury.

[45:03] Jeff Parsons: Okay.

[45:03] Glenn Rosenblum: There, and I do remember him sitting on people's laps in the audience, like in the middle of the show.

[45:06] Jeff Parsons: Really?

[45:06] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, so that's a little out of control.

[45:08] Jeff Parsons: Interesting, but...

[45:08] Glenn Rosenblum: He still delivered the show, the goods, but looking back on it now, you're like, really?

[45:15] Jeff Parsons: Well, where do you think that comes from though? 'Cause I mean, it's like, it's not from boredom, maybe?

[45:20] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, I don't want to say a lack of discipline or anything because that sounds so elementary, but, and he obviously understood art.

[45:30] Jeff Parsons: Exactly.

[45:30] Glenn Rosenblum: He wasn't, it didn't seem like he was very fulfilled in doing the same show or any, like something like your ego goes on banana.

[45:37] Jeff Parsons: Now that's actually a very fair point.

[45:43] Glenn Rosenblum: And you're like, oh, I have to be the star of this show. It'd be so much larger than life that I'm gonna sit on someone's lap in the audience.

[45:47] Jeff Parsons: Well, and he was, he was kind of known for saying that Fiddler was his show. Yeah, like he was the show. And remember, because I've been obsessed with musicals forever, when they announced that Zero Mostel would not be doing the movie, that there was like, how could it be? How could anyone else possibly do it?

[46:05] Glenn Rosenblum: And now that I'm older and look back on Topol, I am Topol.

[46:15] Jeff Parsons: Amazing performance.

[46:22] Glenn Rosenblum: It is. And still, I said, like he brought it back. We are in Hollywood, LA. There was a tour maybe eight years ago where Topol came back. It was a contagious, maybe...

[46:31] Jeff Parsons: Wow, ten years ago maybe.

[46:31] Glenn Rosenblum: And he was good.

[46:39] Jeff Parsons: Really?

[46:39] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, that's another interesting character.

[46:39] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, 'cause in the movie, he's younger than I am now, isn't that crazy?

[46:47] Glenn Rosenblum: And you were talking close-ups too.

[46:47] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[46:47] Glenn Rosenblum: Where he has so many clothes, just a different time. People look different.

[46:54] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, people look different.

[46:57] Glenn Rosenblum: Anyway, he is terrific. Oh, Patti LuPone had horrible things to say about him.

[47:04] Jeff Parsons: Yes, he did.

[47:06] Glenn Rosenblum: Yes, she did. Really bad.

[47:06] Jeff Parsons: Well, I'm sure the ego...

[47:06] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, it's a lot.

[47:06] Jeff Parsons: It is a lot. It's a lot. I've been thinking a lot about ego lately and just in terms of my own creative endeavors. And musical theater happens so quickly in the rehearsal process. Everything is happening personally and at a very high speed.

[47:23] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah.

[47:25] Jeff Parsons: Because, you know, you're giving of yourself, right? And so the opportunities for the ego to flare up are so vast, and it comes from, and kind of in success, but it comes from fear because am I gonna look like an idiot dancing? Am I gonna not hit that note? Am I singing flat? And everyone is standing behind me going, "Get a load of him." I'm trying out terrified. I'm trying out new things that may not work, and then I'm going to get a note. And how is that note communicated, right? And how does that feel? And does it trigger things like correct it? You know what I mean? And I just can see how easy it is for monsters to be cruel. I think you forget, like sometimes, I don't know, someone recently said to me, "I can't believe you can just get up and sing in front of people." Like, that's like terrifies people.

[48:29] Glenn Rosenblum: Sure.

[48:29] Jeff Parsons: You know, and for a good reason because when you do, boy, did the demons start coming.

[48:31] Glenn Rosenblum: Yes, but now there are drugs for that. Thank you.

[48:33] Jeff Parsons: Now, do the work?

[48:35] Glenn Rosenblum: Okay, sorry. So the wedding happened. Yes, and then now let's talk about pogrom because pogrom is a Russian term. Basically, the Russians would come into these Jewish communities and create a lot of chaos and violence to intimidate them and show them who's still in charge, right?

[48:49] Jeff Parsons: Right.

[48:49] Glenn Rosenblum: That's how the first act ends. And I don't know why, but for example, watching The Little Mermaid, when King Triton would come in and destroy Ariel's grotto, I thought was always the moment when I would go to the kitchen and get a glass of water because I could not watch that scene. It hurt me so bad. And since I'm a hundred and ten, that would be the same as when the Wicked Witch was sort of Oz.

[49:17] Jeff Parsons: Oh, really?

[49:17] Glenn Rosenblum: TV, when she would just scare me.

[49:26] Jeff Parsons: Oh, just scared you, torturing Dorothy up.

[49:26] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, yeah. I feel the same way a little bit about the post-wedding pogrom because it's the darn pillows. The pillows are always the ones because, and I don't know if they did this in the original production or if it started with the fellow, but they always make such a thing about it. They're like, you know, Tevye, no, that's in the play.

[49:50] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, exactly.

[49:50] Glenn Rosenblum: They say the father of the bride is giving to the happy couple, you know, this and this and this and these goosefeather pillows. But there's always some ensemble member who really drives it home. So then the Russians come in, and I'll be darned if the first thing they don't do is rip open those pillows and basically tell them, "These are your dreams." Yes, and good luck sweeping them all up and putting them back. And I think I saw one about a half hour ago from the matinee this afternoon that still floated around. I'm sure it makes me so sad.

[50:30] Jeff Parsons: I would be fine. Stage crew is very busy.

[50:34] Glenn Rosenblum: Mission cleaning up all the feathers, all of that stuff. So then that's how the first act ends.

[50:39] Jeff Parsons: Yes, well, and then Tevye, if it's a good production, looks up. I think the one I just saw in London, he doesn't look up and ask God, like, "Why are you doing this?"

[50:51] Glenn Rosenblum: Really?

[50:51] Jeff Parsons: Do you know this is actually a really great point? I think, in my opinion, I'm about to make a really great point. I think Jeff is about to blow himself away. No, that one of the reasons why I think this approach to religion, specifically the Orthodox religion, is so palatable is because of Tevye, is because of the character of Tevye. He, when he talks to God, he talks to God like he's talking to anybody. He's not getting on to some holy altar, raising his arms in the air and talking like you would never talk to anybody else. I bet the brilliance of the original Shalom Aleichem stories, which makes sense to me, and all of a sudden you sense the faith of this man, right? Because he's able to talk to God like he would, yeah, like he'll say some, I'm paraphrasing, like, "You had to give me a horse with a limp."

[51:53] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, right, exactly, with the bad leg. Yeah, and I love that that is a relationship that we see throughout the show is his relationship with God, questioning him sometimes in a humorous way, sometimes in a real pleading sort of way, sometimes in an angry way. But it is, we never question that his scene partner isn't there, right, with the fiddler of the tradition. The fiddler always lurking, also sure, watching the show, sure, just amazing. And such a great symbol for, it's amazing, you know, for how these people feel.

[52:34] Jeff Parsons: Oh, it's unbelievable. Yeah, it's now from what I understand, that was a Jerome Robbins idea from a painter.

[52:41] Glenn Rosenblum: Yes, from a painter, Marc Chagall. And when you look at it, it's a fiddler who seems to be balancing on the roof, and they really kind of designed the original set piece.

[52:51] Jeff Parsons: That's right, to feel those Boris Aronson design.

[52:59] Glenn Rosenblum: Yes, amazing. All right, so then the second act starts. Yes, and we are now with daughter number two. The opening of the second act is tepid, a little tepid. Yeah, song, "Now I Have Everything." Well, look, we've already discussed that I am a huge project. I know you, although I wouldn't mind a good song though. It is, I think it's a daring opening. It's just them singing that song. It's true. Tevye is still, you know, backstage eating the rest of the cake and having this green room.

[53:31] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, in the green room, sure. Maybe having another granola bar, some goldfish crackers.

[53:43] Glenn Rosenblum: Nowadays in green rooms. So now I have everything, they're committed to each other. Tevye says, okay, right, right, and all of a sudden he's realizing that these girls are marrying for love. Everyone's obsessed with love now. That's right. So then he has a...

[54:05] Glenn Rosenblum: He has a really great scene with his wife, which is maybe one of the greatest moments of musical theater, but in terms of writing, it is, oh my god, so it’s not only dramatically effective, but also you are getting this, but like, but also so true to these characters, right? These people who were, their marriage was arranged. They made it work. They obviously have affection, but they don't understand how to really talk about it. Like it's such a cultural shift, this idea, and I'm getting all teary just thinking about it because it's such a major thing because the world is changing. Yeah, how do we change with the world? At some point, we had this, we started shifting toward this culture where you need to talk about your feelings, you need to explore and communicate in a way that is much more literal, and you see this couple who's been together for 25 years going through that enormous cultural shift in one song, and it's perfectly melodic, and the lyrics, and it is, from what I understand, Sheldon Harnick wrote the scene essentially, the lyric, and it was one of the very few times where he just sent the lyric and said, "If you can make something out of this, great.

I'll revise my lyrics as needed," but Jerry Bock just wrote music to exactly what it's just the greatest, greatest, greatest, as I say, up there with this bench. It's very, and it almost, it's a full play. People will say "We're in Love" kind of reminds me a little bit of the same. Yeah, anyway, so great, and I love that they have that moment together. It doesn't change a thing, but even so, after 25 years, it's nice to know. Oh forget it, right? So freaking, if you're not crying in the audience, it's wait until the better production comes or wait 25 years, and right, you'll get it, right? I really feel like with the classics, there's something that draws you to them, right? So like, I because I liked Fiddler when I was little, but then the older I got, then it wasn't just a matter of entertainment.

It was a matter of like, this is speaking some eternal truth to my soul when I saw the mid-90s national theater carousel in Lincoln Center, and I, that's when I realized, wait a minute, Rodgers and Hammerstein are major. And we grew up with the movies, which are a little sugar-coated, so I remember watching that production and thinking, does he abuse his wife in Carousel like that? And I was like, oh really? It did, it does all happen with Gordon MacRae and Shirley Jones, but it seemed like romantic, not so bad.

[57:24] Glenn Rosenblum: Well, and I think that has been a criticism of Fiddler, at least when I was looking at some of the original reviews, right? Like both Walter Kerr and Brooks Atkinson were not kind, not digging it, which just blows my mind. It's so right, but they did feel like it was this very romantic look at, you know, immigrant life, and maybe it is a little romantic, but Fiddler crosses that barrier of being a very serious musical. Now that we look back on it, and also very approachable and still very entertaining. Yeah, still, yeah, absolutely very entertaining about quite a dark period of history, yeah, and in the world. Yeah, okay, back to the plot. So Hodel and Perchik, they decide to get married, yes, right?

And then Perchik leaves, yeah, suddenly that, it's a typical 1960s musical. It's a 45-minute second act; everything happens fast. So Perchik leaves to be a revolutionary. He gets put in jail in Siberia, right? Well, offstage, yes, we don't see that. And so then Hodel has to board the train, yes, to essentially just go be there with him. Yes, and she sings just such a gorgeous song. So she sings "Far From the Home I Love." Yes, now the original Julia McGinnis, yeah, Julia McGinnis was the original Hodel, stunning, and that song is so beautiful because of the way that he's playing with the minor and major. It's, and it has on that line of dialogue, "God only knows when we shall see each other again," tears. It's just, you're messed up. Yeah, it's such a great song. Yeah, so then she leaves. Now we're left with daughter number three.

[59:31] Glenn Rosenblum: Yes, daughter number three, because four and five have literally been, they are playing Yahtzee backstage. They've been doing Yahtzee. They are playing Yahtzee with, you know, the woman who played Fruma Sarah. No one has anything to do. Did you just skip over the whole rumor thing? Oh, no. Well, maybe we did. It does not on the original album. It's just, I thought rumor was after maybe, was after Hava? Was after the whole Hava? Oh, maybe it is, yes, because we're going to get into that sewing machine scene. Oh, right, right. So maybe, oh, maybe that's a good one. Title and model. Meanwhile, Hava has received a new delivery, and we all think that it's a baby. It's a baby, but it ends up being, but also showing that like, it's not just a gag.

That's what I love, stitches. Yeah, because, and he very specifically says, "No more handmade clothes, only made by machine," right? And he says, "The beginning of the end," and he says it with such pride, and we're both excited for him, but on the inside, we're also a little, oh man, because you see it's the death of this. Just now we're going to have to shop at American Apparel on Ventura Boulevard. It's not, not anymore. Poor American Apparel, I know. I couldn't fit into any of those clothes. You could. This is a size XL for who?

[1:01:00] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, so then Hava, whose daughter number three, has fallen in love with the Russian, yes, right? And they decide to tell Tevye, right? That does not go well, and it doesn't go well, no, because now, in the words of Tevye, "How? If I bend that far, I will break," right? To marry outside the religion. Yeah, because we've married for love, and that was fine, but it was always within the faith, right? And so he essentially decides that she's going to be dead to them. I think it's so sad and yet so brave to have this character who, once again, we have grown to love, right? Make such a strong choice that could possibly turn the audience against him, right? You know, to completely turn his back on one of his daughters.

It's huge, but also just raises the stakes so much for this idea of tradition and what keeps us safe, what doesn't, especially when everything else seems to be falling away so quickly, whether it's, you know, the traditions of marriage or Russians coming in and ruining your wedding, you know, like the safety of your family. Where is the steady ground, you know? And so Tevye decides that this is kind of where that line is for him and sings one of the most glorious songs not on the original cast album. Isn't it "A Little Bird"? And so, and from what I understand, this was going to be like a huge ballet, like a Jerome Robbins second act ballet. I'm glad it wasn't like West Side Story. Oh, I'm glad it wasn't, and it's a mini ballet.

I mean, they had real problems figuring out the second act. It's an elegant, it's an elegant, it's very simple, but so sweet where he sees his three girls all choosing, you know, their suitors and kind of not needing him anymore, right? You know, and mourning that and then becoming feminists, and then on top of it all, uh, Tzietel, who's always kind of been the sweetest, like that's part of the song. He's like, she was always the sweetest, kindest, right? The man that she has chosen to kind of replace him is his mortal enemy. That's right, you know, and it always makes me cry, but it's unbelievable. Yeah, because I think that then this is where personally I really connect to him. My dad passed away like before I came out or realized I was gay, and I often make the joke, sorry family, I'm pretty sure that's the reason dad was taken.

I'm not sure he would have been able to handle it, but watching Fiddler, I wonder like how much of, yeah, of his experience would my dad have gone through, you know? So interesting, yeah, and I want to believe that he would want the best for me eventually, right, and would love me, and I'm almost positive that that's what would have happened, right? But I also know that shakiness that you feel when all of a sudden traditions aren't working. That's right. So I have a lot of empathy, I think, for, see why it relate, like here's a whole other layer. Yeah, sorry to cry on my own podcast, how embarrassing. But it really is such a powerful moment in the second act of all places, right? You usually, you don't get something like that. No, the drama, the drama. There's no big 11 o'clock number.

[1:04:51] Glenn Rosenblum: No. Okay, so the whole rumor thing happens, which is like a fun little, I guess, look into Anatevka and how the gossip works, right? Works, right, you know, it's sticky stuff that happens in little towns, and that's what comes from something, something, right? And that's what comes from dancing. Then the people of Anatevka find out that the Heave Ho, they gotta leave. Yeah, which seems just insane. Yeah, the government would ever just come and be like, "Um, you can't be here anymore," right? Exactly, right? And they do a really great job of kind of giving voice to every reaction that you could possibly have to it because some people are saying, "We will stay and we will fight," right? And you know, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, and Tevye says, "Great, so then everyone will be blind and toothless," which is a laugh line while you're crying.

Exactly, so smart. And they're given three days. That's all they're given to pack up everything and go, and they sing a song called "Anatevka," which next to "Do You Love Me?" the duet between Tevye and Golda, I think is one of the most perfect pieces in this show, and it's such a simple piece of music because it is such a simple melody, and yet like tonally, not in terms of music, but just like the tone of it is so specific. They're trashing on their town, right, to protect themselves from the disappointment of leaving it, so they're like, "Eh, it's not that great anyway," right? Which in a way is even more heartbreaking, right? It would be far less effective if they were just sitting there mourning their town.

That's right. But the fact that they're going like in the extra mile to convince themselves that it's not worth missing with the most heartbreaking minor key is so smart and so much deeper than in terms of acting and storytelling. That's why it's a brilliant musical.

[1:07:03] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, now when Jerome Robbins directed and choreographed this show, he was really into circles, like a circle. It had a revolve. Yeah, for those who think the Les Misérables was the one who, you know, came up with revolving stage. I think Oliver had one too. So did My Fair Lady, right? My Fair Lady had two, and then Fiddler had one, big revolving stage with a smaller one in the middle, but I always call the sidewalk. Yeah.

[1:07:37] Glenn Rosenblum: The whole town of Anatevka was creating this circle to be a symbol of their unity. And so at the end of Anatevka, they get in that same circle and then slowly break away and are going in all different directions. Some are walking to Poland, Yenta, the matchmaker, is going to Jerusalem. Someone's going to Chicago. Laser Wolf, I think, is going to Chicago and Tevye is going to New York. And so then they say we'll be neighbors, which is a great laugh for those of us in America. So everyone's going their separate ways because of this exodus. Very sad.

[1:08:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, you forgot a whole thing that happened before that.

[1:08:31] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, well, while they're packing.

[1:08:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's so true. So then Hava, right? Yeah. The dead daughter. She's about to leave. She's about to leave, too. Technically, they could stay, right? Because of Yedka. Right. They could stay in that town.

[1:08:43] Glenn Rosenblum: Right. Because he's Russian.

[1:08:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, but they decide they have decided to leave. Right. They do not want to be a part of some, you know, right town or government that would not allow that would do this. And then we have to get our tissues out again. So then she's trying to say goodbye. And Tevye won't, you know, not acknowledge her. Right. Gold is talking to her. And so it's so exciting.

[1:09:12] Glenn Rosenblum: Well, then he says something like, tell her to be happy or tell her to be safe for me. And you realize that he still wouldn't say it directly to her, but he says it through title and that. You can see it's killing him that he can and he'll probably come around is what I always think, but change is hard. Change is hard. Even in Anatevka in Russia.

[1:09:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, the thing about, you know, with Hava. I think for those of us who have grown up in cultures where we're afraid we won't be accepted for who we are or what we do, can we relate to that when you get something like that? And I've had a very blessed life. I have a very supportive family. So I'm very, very grateful. But when you get something like that from like the Tevye gives, right, which is even a message passed through your daughter, it's amazing. It's the biggest gift.

[1:10:21] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah. And I would hope that we that we don't see it as too little too late, right? Because there when the people you love give you everything they are able to give you exactly no matter how small it is, it means the world. It's such a powerful in life. It's a powerful moment. But in that piece of Fiddler on the Roof, what a powerful moment. That's not musical.

[1:10:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's not dance. Absolutely. You're totally right. And that's something. Yeah. At the end of this musical. Oh, my God.

[1:11:02] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah. And it's almost such an unusual ending. So is West Side Story back to your Jerome Robbins. It's very true. Your love of Jerome Robbins. So is the end of Gypsy when I think of it so quiet.

[1:11:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that's true. Maybe it was whether subconscious or conscious. He was giving audiences space and for them to take it in, you know, and decide what to do with three very emotional endings. I mean, I cry at the end of Gypsy.

[1:11:28] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah. When you look at the themes that he was so intent on exploring. Yeah. And then the mistakes that he made, I'm talking about in his life.

[1:11:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And then you look at the mistakes that he made in terms of how he treated other people. And once again, testifying right during the Red Scare and stuff. You're it is a that is a complex and so complex that who could not quite figure it out. Who could even start to think about what that's all about? Right. It's a lot. But it was enough. I say this a lot kidding sometimes, but I'm not kidding that it really you may have to give a little bit of a pass. It was another time.

[1:12:06] Glenn Rosenblum: Absolutely. And he was doing it once again, like I maybe like Tevye. He was doing the best that he could.

[1:12:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. I think so. So then the very end is, you know, Tevye and his family walking off and then you hear the fiddler playing. And this is also, I think, such a brilliant decision because Tevye invites him to come with him. Right. The tradition. And I think that when we are faced with crises of faith in our life, we begin to realize that the tradition is not the faith.

[1:12:41] Glenn Rosenblum: Right.

[1:12:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But then we have the choice to bring the tradition with us. That's right. You know, because at the very beginning, Tevye says, I don't know why we do some of these things. Right. Right. But we do them and it is our tradition and it helps us stay close to God. Right. And then throughout the show, we see how all of these traditions, not all of these, but some of these traditions deteriorate.

[1:13:13] Glenn Rosenblum: Deteriorate, that's a better word.

[1:13:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And he faces a crisis of faith with his family and with his God and wondering why on earth they're being driven out of this town. Right. So he's having these questions arise.

[1:13:22] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah.

[1:13:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I think that when he comes to a place of we're going to be okay, regardless, you know.

[1:13:38] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh my God.

[1:13:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Then he has the ability to then invite the fiddler. Whereas I think the fiddler was just always there before. Right. But then you really take ownership.

[1:13:51] Glenn Rosenblum: That's right.

[1:13:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that is the beautiful thing, I think, about the Jewish tradition is that it takes people to invite the tradition to continue on.

[1:14:01] Glenn Rosenblum: But not only of Jewish, don't you think?

[1:14:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, no, but I think for this show, for the show, that's a very specific thing that even continues on to this day. We just had to tell my 92-year-old mother not to fast on Yom Kippur. Because she wanted to.

[1:14:16] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, I was like, you're fine. You can have a cup of coffee.

[1:14:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You can have a cup of coffee. You know, um, yeah, but I do. I know that for me and my faith, that that is and once again, like, I promise I won't spend every podcast talking about my belief system. But this is the reason why, you know, this musical is one of my favorites is because it just connects with me personally on so many levels, is that when you when you really spend time to figure out what the crap you believe in this life, right? When you put in that work, you then feel much more powerful to decide what goes with you in terms of, right, in terms of tradition, right? It doesn't always have to be black and white. But people don't like to think in thinking in grays and colors are scary.

[1:15:04] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah, but that's Barnum.

[1:15:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All right. Let me look at my notes. Oh, let's go to the Tony Awards for 1960. What was it? 1965?

[1:15:19] Glenn Rosenblum: Well, it opened in 64.

[1:15:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, so yeah, Fiddler on the Roof is in the 1965 Tony Awards season. And it of course wins a lot. Zero Mostel wins for actor Maria Karnalova for Best Supporting Actress. It wins Best Musical, you know, authors, producers, directors. It doesn't win scenic design that goes.

[1:15:44] Glenn Rosenblum: How could that be?

[1:15:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know, right? What did it who won?

[1:15:57] Glenn Rosenblum: Oliver Smith for Baker Street.

[1:16:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Love and the Odd Couple for three things.

[1:16:11] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah. Well, for Baker Street, it looks like Boris Aronson was nominated for both Fiddler and Incident at Vichy.

[1:16:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I've never even heard of Arthur Miller.

[1:16:21] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, that's oh, is it? Good. That's Arthur Miller. Okay. It also won costume design Patricia Ziprot.

[1:16:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. This is why I'm up till five in the morning. I just know this.

[1:16:33] Glenn Rosenblum: I understand. So this is interesting, though. So what do you think were the other musicals nominated that year?

[1:16:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That year? Well, Baker Street must have been nominated.

[1:16:46] Glenn Rosenblum: No. So there are four Fiddler, Fiddler one, and then you got three others.

[1:16:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Golden Boy, Golden Boy. Wow. Which to think that Fiddler and Golden Boy were the same year is kind of I can't even believe my mind.

[1:17:02] Glenn Rosenblum: Uh, then Half a Sixpence is Bad Event.

[1:17:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a good part for you.

[1:17:11] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, my God. You can play that in your sleep.

[1:17:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then, oh, what a Lovely War, which is that, you know, it's so highfalutin.

[1:17:22] Glenn Rosenblum: So weird.

[1:17:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, what a lovely. Yeah, that's too highfalutin for us. But that means that Roar of the Greasepaint Smell of the Crowd was not nominated.

[1:17:34] Glenn Rosenblum: How could that be? And was it up for best score, at least?

[1:17:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Let me look. Yes. And Fiddler won the best score.

[1:17:44] Glenn Rosenblum: Fiddler won the best score. Also that that same season was Do I Hear a Waltz?

[1:17:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. Oh, you can see why that. Well, that does have a lovely score. So Roger.

[1:17:55] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah. Rogers and Sondheim were nominated for that.

[1:18:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And did but not for Best Musical. Did she win for Best Actress? Elizabeth Allen in Do I Hear a Waltz?

[1:18:07] Glenn Rosenblum: I think so. No, it was Minnelli for it was Liza Flora the Red Menace.

[1:18:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So hold on. Are you telling me?

[1:18:17] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, that's crazy.

[1:18:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Did you just do a gay gasp? Because that means that Flora the Red Menace wasn't nominated for Best Musical or Best because Quiet Thing is one of my favorite songs of all time. And so it's not that it's not a fantastic show.

[1:18:34] Glenn Rosenblum: I know you're right. Bajor was that everybody's looking for the big sure.

[1:18:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Talk about a stinker. If anybody likes this podcast, I will be so excited.

[1:18:47] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, that is the most amazing. First of all, Ben Franklin in Paris.

[1:18:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my God. With the songs by Jerry Herman that no one talks about that he wrote, you know, for a dollar ten.

[1:19:01] Glenn Rosenblum: But how about War of the Greasepaint? Smell the crowd with that with those famous, famous, famous songs?

[1:19:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. No, I mean, I mean, how many times do we have to hear Feeling Good on American Idol?

[1:19:13] Glenn Rosenblum: Thank you. But who I mean, honestly, who remembers Havis Expense? Not many.

[1:19:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, there was that revival in London that everyone loved.

[1:19:25] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, really? Just with Charlie Stemp.

[1:19:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: When was that? Just like two years ago.

[1:19:34] Glenn Rosenblum: OK. Yeah. And then oh, what a lovely war. Like who remembers that? Too highfalutin.

[1:19:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But then Roar of the Greasepaint. I feel like like you said, everybody remembers Feeling Good.

[1:19:46] Glenn Rosenblum: Yeah. And who can I turn to? And on a wonderful day like today? Thank you, Mrs. Maisel.

[1:19:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's right. Thank you, Mrs. Maisel. More Jews making some making our lives better. Right. Mrs. Maisel. Right. Great.

[1:20:02] Glenn Rosenblum: Is there anything else that we want to talk about? We could sit here until like forever.

[1:20:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I want to make sure I talked about everything that I wanted to looking through my notes. All right. Let's wrap it up. Next week's show all about Bajor with Nancy Dussault. I think every once in a while I want to throw in a super random one, although, you know, like because I really want to do an episode about Smile.

[1:20:26] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh, fabulous.

[1:20:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Do one about I had a ball and have Karen Morrow come and talk to you.

[1:20:35] Glenn Rosenblum: Do you think she would?

[1:20:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In a second. Really?

[1:20:41] Glenn Rosenblum: In a second. Oh my gosh. I wouldn't even need she wouldn't even need a microphone.

[1:20:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No. Could you imagine?

[1:20:50] Glenn Rosenblum: Oh my God. I'm coming.

[1:20:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I wanted to say thank you for being here today.

[1:20:58] Glenn Rosenblum: Thank you for inviting me.

[1:21:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is and I was nervous. Of course. What are what will we talk about? And we had plenty of this stuff. Thank you. Bach and Harnik and Stein and Jerry Robbins, my friend for chair for creating a Fiddler on the Roof. So I want to say thank you, Michael Willett, for creating the artwork and theme song for the podcast. If you have anybody out there, if you want to suggest a show that we're going to that we cover on the musical theater podcast, go ahead and email us at a musical podcast at gmail.com. Or you can find us on Twitter at a musical podcast. Yeah. Until next time. Have a great day, guys. Oh, fun.