This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: On a personal note, it's because of the show that I met my wife, because on a cast reunion, she happened to be in the same bar that night, and that's where we met. So, this show literally means the world to me, because I would not be where I am right now if it wasn't for it. That's going to be the little intro to the episode.

[0:34] Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast, where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are discussing a timely musical for the beginning of February, Groundhog Day, which was a listener request by a few of you, including our guest, who was able to work in the development of the musical. He is an actor, but now he's mainly a director and choreographer that hails from West Yorkshire, and in addition to his many credits in the UK, he is now Director of Musical Theatre at Brennau University in Atlanta, Georgia. Everyone, please welcome Ste Clough!

[1:28] Ste Clough: Hello, hello!

[1:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Stie, so glad you're here.

[1:32] Ste Clough: Or as we say in West Yorkshire, Aadu.

[1:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Aadu?

[1:36] Ste Clough: Aadu. Yeah, Aadu.

[1:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that. Talk to me about when you got to work on Groundhog Day, because I kind of know the story, but not really.

[1:48] Ste Clough: So yeah, I first got the call about Groundhog Day to audition when I was actually touring in Jersey Boys at the time. And my agent was just like, hey, there's this new musical. It's been in and out of workshops for the past two years. They just want to get you into singing and stuff. And so I went through the audition process, and it was amazing just seeing these new sides, hearing this new music, and they send you the music over and you're kind of like, I don't know what this sounds like. Okay, here we go. So you're calling all your friends going, can you just play this music for me? I don't know what it sounds like. Yeah, let's just have a go. I got the phone call a couple of weeks later. It was a very short process, actually, asking for me to play the part of Jeff, would you believe?

[2:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey!

[2:34] Ste Clough: Who is just a great name. The nice thing about Groundhog Day is all the ensemble are named characters of the community of Punxsutawney. So it was nice. But even though it was a few months before rehearsal started, I was then already getting calls going, do you have a week here? Do you have a week there? Do you have a few days here? We just want to test some materials. So already, this show was just kind of in this workshop phase. And there was even a warehouse in Canary Wharf in London, where they had already built a mock of the floor of the set because the original production had six revolves in it, which is kind of mind blowing. And so they'd already started just working out what this revolve can do.

And, you know, where can it go? And what effects can you create? So I was brought on board just to do a few puppeteering things. And so we puppeteered this car chase and everything like that. And I remember Matthew Warchus coming in at the end of the workshop, very stoic in his expression. And we just did it a couple of times. And we were having a conversation of like, we don't know how this car is going to move. You know, are you going to have people dressed in all black so they can fade into the background, things like that. And he just candidly went, no, the revolve is going to do it. And I kid you not, the automation guy who was there, it was Nick Page, he's a brilliant guy. His face just literally turned white as a sheet.

He was like, the revolve is going to do what? And, but you know what? They did it. They created this car chase that was fully automated, just using these revolves. So you were actually able to make things move in a straight line. It's math. And I'm kind of like, you know, bowing down to the trigonometry gods that are automation guys on making that work. But Fairplay was the most incredible thing to be part of. And to be part of a company that is literally running around with cardboard boxes to represent something, to then be part of that as a production six months later, you know, from that initial installment all the way through. It's something that you very rarely get to be part of. And it's something that I'm very, very humble and very, very grateful that I was able to be a part of it.

[5:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, to go from cardboard boxes to like million dollar set, right? That's absolutely insane. Now, yes, everything starts with the cardboard box.

[5:15] Ste Clough: Look, that's how we did it when we were little. I love and we always talk about creating theaters, you know, being in the sandbox. So that just makes my day. Now, the creative team that you're talking about is a team that we've talked about on the podcast before. I highly recommend that anybody who wants to go back and listen to our Matilda episode that includes deep dives into all of these people. Tim Minchin, Matthew Warchus, who you already mentioned, they had collaborated together on the Rubik's Cube that is Matilda. These are fascinating minds who just understand stagecraft in such a mathematical puzzle piece sort of way that is just incredible. And even just from the short amount that I've heard from you, it seems like those skills were on full display yet again with their next collaboration, which was Groundhog Day. Were you at all starstruck? Were you a fan of Matilda? Did you know it?

[6:26] Ste Clough: Matilda is incredible. It really is incredible. And you're absolutely right. I was starstruck. I was going to work every day in a room with Matthew Warchus, Tim Minchin, the book writer, Danny Rubin, who actually wrote Groundhog Day. Everyone in this world, the film is so popular, and I know we'll probably touch on this later, but people use it within their own existence. It's not just a reference. I've been a fan of Tim Minchin before he wrote Matilda, just because his use of words are just astonishing. I could listen to that man just speak to me all day, every day, just because of his vast amount of vocabulary that he has, but also the understanding of obviously building sentences and things like that, but how he does it is almost like he's painting a fine picture.

And I think the songs and the words of Matilda make it the masterpiece that it is. The musical is not about the magic. That's what I love about it. The magic doesn't take precedence. And it's more about the imagination that is used, and how that imagination is portrayed through Matthew Warchus' directing and Peter Darling's choreography.

[7:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh, I just had so many things fly through my head. It's also dark, and they didn't shy away from that darkness, especially in the sound of the musical. You hear the beginning of Matilda, and it's ominous, to say the least, right? And I think Tim Minchin, who is, of course, a famous comedian performer from Australia, he is not afraid of the dark.

[8:11] Ste Clough: No, he's not.

[8:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He has kind of a dark sense of humor, and he's willing to play with it. And in the same way that Matilda isn't necessarily about the magic, I would argue that Groundhog Day isn't about the high concept of starting the day over and over again. There's something so much more, so much darker to really talk about and dive into. And so I think that this is probably a great match from a very different type of product, but a great match nonetheless. So he was in the room every day. Then you've got Peter Darling and Alan Kane, who also choreographed Matilda. They choreographed Groundhog Day, and from all the work that they've done. But then it's the people, the subsequent creatives that you know about, but you don't necessarily... What am I trying to say?

[9:13] Ste Clough: They're not as famous as the ones who are...

[9:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, exactly. And so you've got people like Finn Caldwell, who did the puppetry. He runs a puppeteer company called Guyron Gimbel, and his rise to fame in puppetry world was he was the guy that made the warhorses move originally.

[9:30] Ste Clough: Oh my gosh.

[9:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So it was...

[9:31] Ste Clough: Maybe one of the most famous puppets of all time.

[9:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. So you've got him coming in, teaching puppetry. You've got Paul Keeve, who is magician extraordinaire in anything illusion within theatre. And then you've got Chris Nightingale, who's the orchestrator, who is the most incredible man and just some sort of like telepathic connection with Tim. He was also the orchestrator on Matilda. Just understanding when Tim was just tinkling the ivories, and he would be like, I know exactly how that needs to sound. Give me an hour. And he comes back with this orchestration. It's just insane. And then even, like I said, just the automation guys that were there through the rehearsal process, just programming this revolve, because there was no way that we could rehearse a show on a flat floor.

It had to be on straight away on this. What was quite clearly another cast member on this floor to help tell the story. So I was just sat there kind of going, I'm just this naive performer from West Yorkshire. And I'm in this room with so much talent. How can I not just absolutely smile from my eyelids and just absorb everything I possibly can within this rehearsal period? And it was actually this process that made me realize that my calling wasn't as a performer. It was to then move forward and to tell my own stories and choreograph my own movement.

[11:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[11:08] Ste Clough: Okay, so we've talked a little bit about the team who has brought Groundhog Day, the musical, to the stage, but let's talk about the film. Yeah, I feel like in many ways this musical theater podcast has become a low-key film podcast as well, because there are so many musicals that have their beginnings in the cinema that we have to discuss them. And I am totally okay to do so. I don't know about you, Ste, but I do love film. And there are, I'd say, a fair number of movies that I've seen over 10, 15 times. Groundhog Day is one of those films for me. I know this film very, very well. I love it a lot. 1993 film from Harold Ramis, who also did Ghostbusters. Starring Bill Murray, who was also in Ghostbusters.

These two collaborated a lot on things. Bill Murray, by the way, infamously difficult to work with, and yet Harold Ramis seemed to be the guy who always knew how to use him. And never more so brilliantly, I think, than in Groundhog Day. Unfortunately, this was a real stress on their friendship, and they didn't speak to each other after filming was completed, and never really reconnected until right before Harold Ramis's death. Anyway.

[12:30] Ste Clough: Oh, wow. I didn't know that.

[12:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Crazy, right? The film, however, was a success, and a big successful comedy, which we just don't see very much anymore. What I always believe, though, is that every successful comedy, and horror film, honestly, because I love both of those genres, every successful iconic film in those genres has something grounding it to reality, to sincerity. It's not just absolute insanity. I was even reminded of this while watching, because I usually watch it every year during Christmas, National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation. Have you ever seen that Chevy Chase film?

[13:08] Ste Clough: I have not, but I am going to put it on the list for next year. I think it's a bit too late now to watch it now.

[13:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's absolutely ridiculous, and probably too American for you to think it's funny. But even that film that has crazy lines like, the shitter's full, you know, just the most atrocious things happening at Christmas time, has a scene with Chevy Chase in the basement, really connecting with his father in a way where he's expressing how deeply he wants to create a perfect Christmas for his family. Every great comedy has these grounding moments, and while Groundhog Day really did end

[13:52] Ste Clough: Like you said, into a lexicon of its own, just from the title. Within this film, I always think of that moment in the movie where Bill Murray's trying to bring the homeless man back to life. And he's like, come on, man, come on, you know, and it's emotional to see the journey of that. And so, yes, Groundhog Day, ridiculous. And you got Ned Frierson and all of these zany characters. But at its core, is this almost existential crisis, figuring out what even is life? Like, that really is the thesis of Groundhog Day. What is life?

[14:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. Exactly. And it's the idea of self-discovery. One thing that makes Groundhog Day so great is, as a concept, you're kind of like, how can this possibly happen? This can't be real. But I think the brilliance of the writing, you never question it. You never question the science behind it. You never question what it's about. You're already on that ride, and you accept it. You never have a moment to question it.

[15:03] Ste Clough: Such a good point. Yeah. And so, I think that that's just the most brilliant thing about it, because you're so more invested in his journey to getting out than questioning what environment Phil is in at that time. And almost like you see the different, distinct journeys that he goes on, almost like going through grief. Do you know what I mean? He's got the angry phase. He's got that, I can do whatever I want phase. He's got the suicidal phase. And then he's got, what you're talking about is this redemption phase. And it's this understanding that it's not about what the world has placed on him, but what he is placing within the world.

[15:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What you're going to do with it.

[15:45] Ste Clough: Exactly. And the moment that you're talking about right now is seeing the homeless man and knowing that February 2nd is his last day. And when he starts going on this pioneer journey to make this man live and do whatever he can, either bringing him food, taking him to a hospital, whatever he can, he just can't make this man live. And I think that that really questions his own existence. One thing that I spoke to Danny Rubin during the rehearsal process is like, how long is this? Is this for a couple of weeks? And Danny was like, no, this is years. This is years and years. And so to be able to go through that thousands of times, it is mentally... We were talking earlier about COVID. I was locked inside my London apartment for four months and I was going stir crazy.

Because it did feel like Groundhog Day. It was like, oh, another day that I just sit in my pajamas and play Oreo checkers with my wife because there's nothing else to do. We go through this kind of like insanity. And it's so nice to see Phil kind of go through that other side and find that self-discovery and that transformation.

[17:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, such great themes. So then the question comes up with this great story, which once again, we want to shout out Danny Rubin for writing both the screenplay and the book for this musical, doing beautiful, beautiful work. The question then becomes, why turn it into a musical? Why is it being called out? I can think of in the movie, a couple of great uses of music. Shout out the Pennsylvania Polka. That song's used a lot. You've got the radio waking him up with Sonny and Cher's I Got You Babe. He plays the piano at the end. So there are little pieces of music. But what is calling out from this story to Tim Minchin to musicalize? Now, I have my opinion, but what do you think?

[17:52] Ste Clough: Well, I know that this idea came from Matthew Warchus. And I don't question what goes on in Matthew Warchus's mind because I know if he gives me a slice of something that I'll be completely overwhelmed by it. I trust him completely. So if he says something is a good idea, I'm like, okay, I'll do it. I trust you. But not only that, I mean, when you look at this film, to turn anything into a musical or to take anything from one format to another format, I think the question has to be asked artistically of what am I doing to add my own creativity to this that is going to help tell the story more? What can I do differently that is not going to be my selfish creative side of, you know, I want to do it this way.

But it's more of what can I aid to take this to a new level and have that new rebirth. And I believe that they had those views. And I think the use of music and the use of constant soliloquy from Phil, we not only see him as a person, but at the same time, we can almost see inside his mind because of this constant self-reflection and constant touching into his mental state.

[19:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And I think that that is why Minchin is such a great match for this musical is because in Matilda, he is the king of monologuing. He is the king of these journal moments where Matilda is taking us through naughty and she's taking us through quiet. And then you got Miss Honey taking us through her little story. Right. And in Groundhog Day, we have a character who literally is writing in her journal. But on top of that, you've got Phil, who is having an experience that no one else is having. How on earth can he express what's going on inside when there's nobody to connect to? Nobody would believe him. Everyone is living their own reality. He is living this one. That is what, to me, sings out. This is what's going on inside. And I might as well sing about it because nobody would believe me anyway.

[20:14] Ste Clough: Exactly. And as well, Phil, as a character, he's a weather forecaster. He's a person that is always looking to the next step. He always looks about the future. He's always focused on the future. And it's not until that time parameter gets taken away from him that he understands that he doesn't have the basic knowledge or skill set to talk about him in the present. And I think that that's as much of a learning for him as well is, no, I need to enjoy where I am now and not constantly think about the future. That's mindfulness, by the way. That is the definition of this kind of zeitgeisty word that is often really hard to define. Mindfulness. That's really beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. Before we get more into the story, because there's really a lot to dive into, can you take me then through, were you able to perform in the show?

[21:14] Ste Clough: Yeah. So I was cast as Jeff and I kind of wrote it down. I just went back in my calendar, like, how long did we rehearse for? And we started rehearsals in the end of April, and we didn't go into tech until the end of June.

[21:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh. That's a really long rehearsal process.

[21:32] Ste Clough: Yeah. Because they had this script, they had this score, and they had this master of a revolve that they needed to work out. And I remember just, they literally turned into Groundhog Day. It was every single day we turned up, we turned up at quarter to 10, we then did our warm up, we then sang for a bit. And then we're here in this plywood room, you know, everything was plywood. And then the kind of roof was kind of like this like tan padding. And we just called it the Digestive Biscuit Room, which is kind of like a cookie in America.

[22:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Please tell me, I'm sorry, we're pausing right here. Can you tell me the difference between a biscuit and a digestive biscuit? And is it really supposed to help you, like, go to the potty? Like, is there anything digestive about a digestive biscuit?

[22:26] Ste Clough: No. Back in the day, maybe as some kind of marketing pun. But I call it a chocolate digestive. You dunk it in tea and you have it and it's really good.

[22:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm sure it's delightful.

[22:40] Ste Clough: It is. It is. But I felt like I was in an oatmeal cookie. That's the US translation.

[22:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fair enough.

[22:46] Ste Clough: But that would be nice. And exactly. And we turned up and we're just kind of like, we're here again. What are we going to do? What's going to stick? What's going to change? You know, that usual kind of process of like, is this right? Is this wrong? And, you know, we spent a week doing an opening and they were kind of like, so you know what we did? We've got this idea and we've got that. And so we're just going to start again. In the 10 weeks that we were there, we did not run the show.

[23:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm speechless. I am shooketh.

[23:23] Ste Clough: We did a kind of dot to dot kind of thing of like, run this section. Okay, now run this section. And I think that this is probably Matthew Warchus's amazing creative process that again, just you have to trust is that I think for him, he's a very visual person. And so it wasn't until he was being able to sit back on the stage and most of the changes that we made to the show, and most of the ability to rehearse the show and get a through thought was not in the last few weeks of rehearsals or even in tech. It was during our previews.

[24:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[24:02] Ste Clough: We had about a month of previews and we were in there every single day in the morning, new staging, new revolve cues, new choreography. And we'd be like, right, this is going in here. This is going to go in two days time. Don't worry about this tonight. It wasn't until the final stages that you actually felt cemented in what you were doing.

[24:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I really got to say, my heart goes out to the producers of this thing, dude, because to go home and just scream into your pillow that you have funded 10 weeks of rehearsal and they didn't even run the show at the end of it.

[24:48] Ste Clough: What did I pay for? Oh my gosh.

[24:54] Ste Clough: We were at the Old Vic. It was in a space that normally has a musical. So it was that ability to try something out. And it was a huge passion project and they gave everything that they could. And it was successful. I mean, you couldn't buy a ticket, but it was only a limited time. There was kind of extension on because they program a season. It wasn't a case of, oh, let's just chuck it into town and see how long it can go. And I mean, let's be honest, this would not have been possible if Matilda hadn't been the huge mega hit that it was. And it was the same producer as well as Matilda. So they came on board and I'm so glad that they did because this show changed my life. So the show opens in London, your big hit, nominated for many Olivier Awards and winning a lot too, right?

[25:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, we won Best New Musical. It was the same ceremony as Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, because I remember we were in the top floor at Three Mill Studios doing Groundhog Day and they were down in the basement doing Harry Potter. These two big shows rehearsing in the same building.

[26:10] Ste Clough: With a lot of magic in between them.

[26:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: A lot of magic in between. Exactly. But Harry Potter was just incredible. And we got tired of their theme tune. And there we go, another one. But no, we were very successful and ultimately it was decided that no, we're going to finish here. And the production, along with Andy Karl, we're going to then try over Broadway and open up there.

[26:42] Ste Clough: So they open up in the 2016-2017 season. Now, this episode, this Groundhog Day episode, marks the first time in which we have discussed the best musical nominees, all of the best musical nominees from that season. So we've done episodes on Come From Away, Dear Evan Hansen, Natasha Pierre, and The Great Comet of 1812, and now Groundhog Day. Groundhog Day was the fourth nominee for Best Musical of the season. Now, does that mean that the 2016-2017 Broadway season only had four musicals? Oh, no, no, no, no, no. This season was jam-packed. I think it's fair to say, just from my opinion, that Dear Evan Hansen, Come From Away, and Natasha Pierre were going to all be nominated for Best Musical. So then, it's really only the fourth spot that's available. Here are the other musicals that opened on Broadway this season. Anastasia, War Paint,

[27:44] Ste Clough: The Patti LuPone and Christine Ebersole musical. Motown. Holiday Inn. Bandstand. A Bronx Tale. In Transit. That was the acapella musical. Amelie. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Groundhog Day. That's unheard of. Maybe not so unheard of because it's about to happen again this season. But all of those musicals are basically fighting for the last spot of the Best Musical Tony. Groundhog Day wins. From hearing those musicals, do you think that's the right choice? Granted, you have told me that this musical means more to you than anything in the entire world. I have bias. I only have bias because I know how much blood, sweat, and tears I put into this production to then, you know, even though I wasn't part of anything on Broadway.

And I think back to, like we were saying, me running around with boxes. If I'd run a different way than some actor on Broadway, I'd be running a different way. Do you know what I mean? So I've left DNA into that production. So I have to say, yeah, I have to fight for a show that I was part of. But I have so much respect for all the other shows. And I have so much respect for anyone who has the strength to build work and create beautiful work. I would see it as a blessing that all of that work happened in a year. Yeah, incredible. Tim Minchin has a quote about it, specifically in the Broadway game. He said, quote, Broadway has a zero sum. It can sustain at maximum two new hits. And if you come in late in the season where Dear Evan Hansen and Come From Away have surprised everyone, and then you've got Natasha Pierre in The Great Comet of 1812, you come in, you're just effed.

We come in with a slightly overly thoughtful, quite dark, dense, complex, untraditional musical. You can get all the five-star reviews and Tony nominations you like, but you're just effed. We just got unlucky. And I have to agree on some level. Now, this is what I'm going to say right now. And I don't want you to hate me. When this musical came out, and the original cast album was released, I tried to listen to it. I got up to "Stuck." And then I myself got stuck and did not listen to any more of the musical. I went back to it. I tried again, still got only a couple songs into it and was like, I don't care for this at all. You and I write over email, let's review Groundhog Day. I'm like, oh gosh, that means I really have to listen to the rest of this thing.

And what I did was I got the script. I sat down with the script. I read through the script and then played the songs and listened to them in the context of the script. And Steve, I loved it. I loved it. And yeah, I completely agree with you. If anybody does not like this musical, because they've listened to the cast album, trust me, I've been there. The script makes all the difference. And I was listening. So obviously, it was the Broadway cast that got the cast album, not bitter at all. That's fine. But the standalone songs are few and far between within Groundhog Day, especially when we'll start talking about when we go through the structure of Groundhog Day and how it's done. There's only kind of like 32 bars of singing here, a little motif here, a little pop in there, a little backing vocal here.

And that is all underlining of the text and the script. And the juxtaposition of the music and the script, when it combines together on stage format is a masterpiece. When you take away that script, I'm confused why they did that for the cast album. It then started raising questions and you felt like part of it was taken away. You listen from Come From Away, the cast album, and you're like, I'm there. I can see it. I can understand. They've cut it down and I'm still being able to follow the story. And Groundhog Day is of the same format. But with that cast recording, they admitted a lot of the scene work because it is repetition as well, but it's slightly different. So I understand why they didn't do it.

But I think it did have an effect on the overall product when you're kind of like, I want to learn about this musical. Let's listen to the cast album. Whichever scenario that you're in, you're not able to see the production. You go to the cast recording. And it almost points to the special collaborative nature of what you guys created, to be honest. Where if you're going to take one piece away, maybe it doesn't work so much. It feels to me, which is what you want to say about every theater piece, it's a show that's meant to be experienced in the theater, live.

[32:59] Ste Clough: Exactly. Well, there's one section in the very last song, "Philanthropy." It's called the fugue section. And it's whilst he's playing the piano. And I was listening to it back and I was like, that's what this show is. It's not creative levels of people telling their own story that are leveled on top. The way that this musical was made, and the way that this musical was built, was by creating this frugue of everything. And if you take one piece, it would just fall apart. Exactly like you say, it should be seen in the theater. Absolutely. Suffice it to say that Groundhog Day is not the hit that they wanted it to be on Broadway. It was a really crowded season. They ended up closing pretty early.

They also ran into a lot of problems during previews in terms of injuries. Andy Karl, famously, I don't know if he tore a ligament in his ankle or something, but he was booted. But he has stayed with the show since, I mean, nobody else has really been Phil, right? Exactly. Andy Karl is Phil. Yeah, every production. So, I mean, I can't believe it was eight years ago. The two constants that came back was Andy Langtry, who was Ned Ryerson in the original company. He was Olivia nominated for Best Supporting Actor in the show. And Andy Karl, who was Phil, those were the only two people that came back. So, it's an exciting time for the show. And I'm glad that they've been able to find something that brings it back to life and tells a story for people to see it.

And it not just being an archive memory for people. Oh, good. Remember that time when you had to see the show? And they tried to do Groundhog Day because, believe me, that's been my opinion of it here in the States. And I think a lot of people have thought that as well. Like, well, they tried to do that cash grab by putting the movie on stage. And I repent heavily of said thought processes, because there really does seem to be so much integrity and mindfulness, if you will, brought to the show. And so, I appreciate you taking us through it. Can we go through it? Yes, please.

[35:14] Ste Clough: All right. The premise of the show is pretty specific, but also pretty uncomplicated, because I think it has to be uncomplicated if you're going to be messing with it so much. Basically, there's this weatherman. His name is Phil. He's kind of an a-hole. And his a-holeness, if you will, comes from the arrogance of being able to predict the future. It's such a brilliant conceit to begin with. Kudos to Danny Rubin, who apparently thought of this idea while reading The Vampire Chronicles by Anne Rice. I didn't know this, but apparently that's what Wikipedia says. Anyway, but this idea that our hero, our anti-hero in this story is someone who can't be present because literally their job is about telling the world what the weather's going to be like tomorrow.

Now, juxtapose that with him being in Punxsutawney, Pennsylvania on Groundhog Day, in which the citizens bring out, by tradition, a groundhog, not quite a squirrel, not quite a beaver. Kind of both, but not like either. And they ask the groundhog if he sees his shadow, and the groundhog speaks in groundhog-ese and lets them know whether or not he saw a shadow. And if he doesn't see his shadow, I always forget. This is like kind of Prop 8. I can't remember exactly what is what. But if he doesn't see his shadow, then...

[36:46] Ste Clough: It's an early spring.

[36:50] Ste Clough: Then it's an early spring. It's the opposite of what you think it's going to be. Yeah.

[36:53] Ste Clough: That's what I'm screaming. If he does see his shadow, then it's six more weeks of winter. But to see his shadow, that would suggest that the sun is shining.

[37:02] Ste Clough: Right, not the case. Not the case.

[37:05] Ste Clough: So they're asking this little rodent to predict the future, which is hilarious, because for someone to be arrogant enough to think that they can predict the future, you might as well just be the little groundhog, right? That's basically what this show is saying. And it just so happens that they're both named Phil. From the get-go, the layers are hilarious and thoughtful and really smart. And I think it is just the satire of human Phil thinks he's above this holiday, hates it, can't stand it. And I think there is some kind of animosity towards that animal, just because his name is also Phil. And he predicts the weather. It's very confronting. And it's kind of like, I'm the same as this rodent. Like, come on, like...

[37:55] Ste Clough: Yeah, like, how dare you? No, I am Phil the weatherman. I deserve respect and a limousine.

[38:01] Ste Clough: Exactly. And this animal gets the respect and the limousine in Punxsutawney. Yeah. Now let's talk about Punxsutawney, which is a small town, right? And it is most famous for this actual holiday that we celebrate in the States. Do you have any super strange holidays like Groundhog's Day in the UK?

[38:20] Ste Clough: We have Pancake Day.

[38:22] Ste Clough: Well, look, that just sounds smart to me.

[38:24] Ste Clough: Pancake Day is Shrove Tuesday. What is it over here? It's like Fat Tuesday?

[38:30] Ste Clough: Like Fat Tuesday? Like in New Orleans?

[38:33] Ste Clough: Oh, yeah. So it's the same as Mardi Gras. So it's the start of fasting before Easter.

[38:39] Ste Clough: Sure. Sure. Okay. Lent.

[38:43] Ste Clough: Lent. Exactly. So it's to signify the beginning of Lent. So yeah, we have Pancake Day. We don't really have anything else that I had liked. No, we are...

[38:54] Ste Clough: Well, look, we got some real weird ones where I'm from in northern Utah. Every county or kind of every area has its own festival, usually, but not always, dedicated to fruit. So where I'm from, we have Peach Days because we got a lot of good stone fruit where I'm from. So there's the Peach Queen pageant, which has always been a source of comedy for me growing up. Just south of me is Cherry Days, another stone fruit. But you'll get those really unsafe carnival rides set up and junior high kids will go on them and throw up. That's kind of the idea. Just north of me, however, they get rid of the stone fruit and we've got Mosquito Days up near Randolph, Utah, which is...

[39:42] Ste Clough: Mosquito Days.

[39:43] Ste Clough: They have so many different varieties of mosquitoes that they have their little festival there. I have gone to the Mosquito Days parade, which was very short. It was more of a procession than a parade.

[39:58] Ste Clough: I think I will just pay homage to America being the winner of Crazy Holidays.

[40:04] Ste Clough: I think so. I do think that we are kind of obsessed with making everything a thing. And I'm okay with it because maybe in a way we're terrified of the monotony of our own lives.

[40:10] Ste Clough: Absolutely. And it's within that monotony that Phil grows.

[40:24] Ste Clough: You find the profundity. Exactly. So at this festival, at the Groundhog Day Festival, he is rolling his eyes. He's got his cameraman, Larry. He's got the producer who's on site with him. She's kind of a new upcoming producer. They've only worked together once, though he doesn't remember that. Her name is Rita. And the day progresses with him rolling his eyes at every little thing, even though Rita kind of loves the quaintness of this town and the way that everybody bonds together and is having fun, even though it's butt-freezing cold. And where's the sticky buns? I hear there's famous sticky buns. There are all these little things that she's trying to enjoy, and Phil is not interested. Now, I know I just made fun of Peach Days, but I do want to say that as I've grown older, I have appreciated these little rituals and these things that we look forward to every year. And you know what? The peach cobbler during Peach Days is bomb.com. I'm excited. I live in Georgia.

[41:36] Ste Clough: I'm surprised that I don't see more peaches. Why don't you guys have peach days? My gosh! I don't know. I'm kind of like, we should steal this. And I'm going to start the first peach festival in Atlanta, Georgia. Just some Brit who doesn't know what he's doing. They're like, hey guys, let's eat peaches. All the black people are like, child, sit down. You don't know what you're doing. Exactly. The day ends. Oh, there's even like a banquet that Phil refuses to go to. The day ends, he goes to bed. Oh, oh no, sorry. He wants to leave immediately. Unfortunately, with this blizzard coming in that he's constantly warned about by, you know, the community of, oh, there's a blizzard. And he's like, no, there isn't. You know, he's constant.

I know better. I know my job. I know better. He's wrong, by the way. But when he realizes he's then stuck, we then find ourselves in the diner where we meet a few characters in the diner. And then later we move on to the banquet or the bar, which is the entryway into the banquet hall. And it's those real...as well as waking up in the B&B in the morning, it's really only those four or five scenarios that we focus on within the day. That he then...and we find that routine. And when that routine starts to cycle around and we realize he's waking up on the same day, it's those kind of...it's those scenarios that we anchor down within. So he goes to bed, wakes up. He first thinks, oh, like the radio's playing the same song or they like recorded something and they're replaying it and kind of an amateur move. But then everything is the same. The second day proceeds as just him kind of WTF what is going on. The day ends. He wakes up the third day. And now it's a thing, right?

[43:37] Ste Clough: Yeah. When we hit threes, then we're like, okay, it's a crowd. Absolutely. You know, one thing that happens is Mrs. Lancaster, who's the owner of the B&B, you know, talks about this blizzard and she's kind of like, oh, will you be staying another night? And on the first day, it's like, chance of leaving 100%. You know, and then on day two, he's like, chance of leaving 80%. It's just this percentage just goes down and down and down. He's getting less and less certain. But yeah, he then goes to day three, which is actually very short. And it just becomes this wash of soundscape of just people shouting Phil and this community that obviously shouting Phil like cheering on this groundhog. But he just sees it as these crazy Stepford people staring at him shouting Phil that just literally spirals him down into abyss of silence.

And that's what takes us out of the third day. The next big musical sequence is the song that I mentioned earlier, Stuck, where he goes to every type of healer, guru, psychologist that he can to see if, you know, what's going on medically. I think it's something that you probably have to talk about nowadays. Nothing really comes of it. So then he finds himself in a bar. And it's really interesting because the other people at the bar, in some ways, are kind of experiencing the same thing he is. Every day is the same. I come to the bar to drink to forget about it. But in his case, it's much more literal.

[45:15] Absolutely. It's maybe the first time he's connecting with the other citizens of this town, but it's because he's been forced to. It's the first time that he takes a step back. And it's the first time he thinks about the present rather than thinking about where he needs to be. And you're absolutely right. They sing a song, Nobody Cares. And it talks about their day. And that repetition that they do. And, you know, they choose to do that because, you know, nobody really cares. And I think for him, it's the first time of like, oh, this, I have a choice. This is, you know, this is the first time that he's hearing people and, you know, actually taking in information that they've given him and him not just brushing it off and thinking that he knows what is right.

Cue cardboard boxes. They bond together with this car chase, right? He realizes there's no consequence. And I think that this is the thing, you know, there is a moment of, you know, understanding of like, does he learn this lesson here already? Does he learn that it's, you know, all about living in the present and things like that? But then he suddenly goes, oh, no, if I'm going to live this life, this means I can do whatever I want. So he then goes into this rebellious phase where he goes drink driving. He smashes into garbage. He nearly runs someone over. He goes on railroad tracks and nearly gets the car nearly gets hit by a train. And it's this crazy car chase that then kind of goes into a almost like an arcade game where in our production, the car moved off into the back.

And then this puppeteer car came out. And we created this grid system of houses that it navigated around. So you saw like a bird's eye view of Punxsutawney, Bill Phil's car. And it was so clever. And you then see this crash happen with the cops chasing him and everything like that. And then we fall out of that sequence with the car and, you know, police there and him being arrested. This is when things start getting really creative in terms of the startovers, because as he gets more and more drunk with power, I mean, you think he had a God complex before. He's about to tell us that he has now believed he is a God, if not the God, because he can do whatever he wants. But these days start repeating faster and faster. Moments start repeating faster and faster. And we get this idea of how time is being played with.

[48:03] Ste Clough: So talk to me about some of the ways that this was staged. So we had a few trucks that came together that created this kind of like bedroom situation. And one of the ways that I think is so clever that I didn't even know was a conscious thought when we were doing it. It was more looking back on my time within it. And the role that in and that's the role that the ensemble played, you know, we were moving this piece of furniture together that then rotated around. We were moving everything and transition everything. And then it suddenly occurred to me, we were portraying that traditional Greek cholera. We were projecting the themes and the feelings of Phil as the protagonist onto the audience. And, you know, we then after we hit nobody cares and he gets arrested.

There was a moment where you see him walk off stage and then all of a sudden he's in the bed in the center of the stage. And all of a sudden, that's when we go into a song called Strut. And it's the same music, but it's reorchestrated to create this like 1960s, like guitar, like like that's a really bad impression of me playing. No, no, like my guitar and like there's a little bit more sax in there. It's a little bit sexy, smooth and soul feel. And he completely sees this world as a different possibility and portrayed by that is the ensemble who, yes, in our diction and in our script, we're the same, but in our movement, we're so much more smoother. We've got this edge. We've got this attitude.

So we start then projecting how he feels towards the audience in this world. This world, rather than being the same, starts to be manipulated by the music and by the feelings that Phil has within the environment that he is. So it's not just about the stagecraft of resetting or beginning again. It is about what colors you're painting with the movement, with the orchestration.

[50:04] Exactly. And at the end of day three, we never really relive a whole day again until the very end. So then we start using those anchors that has been placed within those three days. So when he turns up at the diner, you know what the diner scene is going to be. When he turns up at Godless Knob, you know what that is going to be. And I think Strut is where he starts to understand. And he has that. He goes and exploits everything. There's a character that you meet in the community called Nancy. She's the young, pretty girl of the town. And he goes and sleeps with her by finding out day by day information. So one day, he goes and answers three questions. And then the next day, he keeps that information.

And then, yeah, it is predatory. And it's scary. And he manipulates her to get into bed. And then he goes and steals money from a truck, because he knows that the policeman is going to drop his gun. So at that point where he goes to pick up his gun, he swipes the money. And there's so much story to tell. I mean, we could sit here for three hours and talk about every little detail, right? But when you're doing that in the theater, there's only so much room backstage. So you got to find some pretty creative ways to tell this much story.

[51:23] Ste Clough: And I think it's from this exploration of self that he has that his eyes then go on to Rita. And he sees Rita. And without sounding predatory, because I don't think it is that, I think he's always liked her. But he sees her, and he wants to get to know her. And not to get to know her as a person, but he's using knowledge that she's given him every day to try and get that step closer in order to get her into bed, basically. And he's trying to repeat what he did with Nancy, with Rita. But it's not, for some reason, it's not going the same way.

[52:03] No. And this is beautifully put into the story of, this is while Rita's singing one day and doing these diary entries, where she's talking about her life as a woman and how she's, the fact that it's written in her story that she has to kiss a frog to wake up in a four-poster bed. You know, it's not one day I'm going to have the strength to be my own person. And that's what I do love about Tim's writing is such a beautiful feminist piece of writing that is spliced with around about nine different scenes of Phil getting more and more information till it ends into a snowball fight where they're just about to kiss and he messes it up. And that's when it really then turns into his self-reflection.

Why am I here in Punxsutawney? But what that leads to do is then it leads one-liners from all the ensemble to talk about their aspirations of what they want to achieve in their life or what they need to do to be better people. And then this is the gear that winds us all up and is the energy and the fuel that we actually did the show the day backwards.

[53:15] What? So yeah, so head explode. You've learned this show, doing it and you splice it. And then there was one day, Alan came in and was like, yeah, for the end of this, we're going to do everything backwards. And so it's during the very last 32 bars where everyone's running backwards and he's having different interactions and the band is then moving backwards. And then all of a sudden he's undressing and he gets into bed and he wakes up and it's 6 a.m. And he smashes the clock and it's the end of act one. So it's that real, again, that pulling apart of time that really sends out this insecurity of not being constant and manipulates him into this spiraling darkness.

[54:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: My gosh, so many thoughts. I'm just going to bring out three. Number one, one day, Rita's portion of one day feels to me like a modern My White Night from Music Man. Number two, I love the idea of the organism that you were talking about, everybody's movement being the energy of the world, because isn't that true? We are our dreams, our aspirations and how we move through the world. Even if we don't see that as dance, it's a dance. And number three, as the audience is receiving these inner thoughts of characters, whether it's Rita or maybe Ned in act two, Nancy in act two, is Phil receiving any of that information as well? When is he privy to people's inner monologues, if at all?

[55:05] Ste Clough: I think it's only really here where he then starts truly listening. Because in a way, time doesn't matter to him. Even though the audience is seeing somebody sing a song, it could have been him just watching somebody for six months and recognizing this is part of their existence. Yeah, and I think it's very observing, but I still think it's fueled with, how can they help me? Sure, selfish. No.

[55:28] Ste Clough: Standing what their needs are, but it's always on a selfish platform of how can that person help me? You know, and here's the thing, when you spend the entire day listening to everybody say the same thing over and over again, and you hear the same conversations, it just starts to become noise. And that's exactly what was created to end the end of Act One is just this absolute soundscape of noise of hearing everything at the same time, over and over again. And it also becomes almost torturous to him. And I think that that ends that chapter there of, I'm not going to get what I want. I'm not going to get out of here. The only way is, you know, through suicide. And that's where we hit Act Two.

[56:14] Matt Witkovsky: In Act Two, we get quite the suicide montage, which was really dark. Were people able to laugh? Or was it more of an awkward thing?

[56:27] Jeffrey Scott: I think it was shocking.

[56:28] Matt Witkovsky: Yeah, especially when it plays out on stage.

[56:31] Jeffrey Scott: I think it was shocking. I think it was done with all sincerity. You know, even now that we're talking about it, I'm kind of going, my gosh, did we really do that? I know that there was a misbalance on, you know, you need to hear the words of the song and know what Phil's going through. But then there's also these incredible magic tricks and illusions happening on stage. And there was that balance. I don't think the balance was quite right. Because I don't think the audience were really put on that journey of where Phil is. Could we do that now? Could we do that post COVID? Now that we have so much more awareness of mental health, and mental wellness, and just throw something like that on stage.

And I'm really thinking about it. And it's now that I'm remembering what we did. It was really horrifying. What happened was all the ensemble put on Phil's white t-shirt and pants. And they were actually doing acts of suicide onto the bed. And then so you just have a stage full of Phil's that were committing suicide. And it was, whilst he was just levitating in the air. And this is all to dark rock, you know, and it's, it was, and then—

[57:56] Ste Clough: That makes me feel things inside that I don't really like. That's crazy.

[57:59] Jeffrey Scott: Exactly. And then as these beds turned around, they then turned into gurneys. And it was just, I am thinking about it now. I'm actually, yeah, I'm actually generally disturbed about this, the sequence that we did and thinking that it was okay to do. Because it was true death and true horror. And I think that it was, it brought such darkness to the piece to then elevate up.

[58:26] Ste Clough: Hmm. Well, and that's what I was going to say is that what I do understand and what I do see, regardless of the process of getting there, is that even though he did go to the priest and asked to be exercised, he did need an exorcism. He needed to pass through the valley of death, the shadows and all sorts of things in order for that ego to die down a little bit and find a true purpose. And in this particular story, it meant that he had to die over and over and over again.

[58:58] Jeffrey Scott: Absolutely. You're absolutely right. And he passed through it. And what came out of that was trust in somebody else and honesty. And that's when we find ourselves in the diner again. And he decides that, I'm just going to tell Rita the truth. I'm just going to tell her. And he then has these fortune teller moments where he starts repeating dialogue before it happens. As Jeff, I drop this tray every single time where he actually, then the third time he goes over and he catches the tray. Things like that. And Rita gets given this information of something that is so unrealistic and cannot possibly happen. And she kind of nurtures him. It's honestly one of her greatest character attributes that she was able to take in all this information. And granted, there is a certain degree of like, this can't be real. But at some point, she's like, okay, I believe you. Let's spend this next time exploring what this even means.

[1:00:03] Ste Clough: Yeah. And she sings this incredible song, If I Had My Time Again, that was one of, I think, my favorite song of the show.

[1:00:15] Jeffrey Scott: Yeah. And that's what I'm talking about. It has so much more lift because of where you've been previously. And the symbolism of light and dark, and to see happiness in the moment, and to see opportunity. Whereas, actually within Phil's situation, all he sees is entrapment. And he just starts seeing this world in a new light, and this world that he's been seeing for years in a new light. And it's upon that that he starts looking for those opportunities. And exactly like we were talking before, the opportunity that he starts seeing is he starts to learn piano. And he then also starts to see this homeless man, who he's seen throughout the entire show and has paid any focus to. And then he sees him on the bench. And this story of him getting better at the piano, to symbolize him getting better at himself, but then also this increased desperation to make this man well, is all circulated around Ned Ryanson's song, talking about the loss of his wife.

[1:01:25] Ste Clough: Yeah, this character who we always assumed was just the most irritating, annoying guy in the world. Too comedic effect, for sure, right? But just like everybody, Ned has a story. And when Phil actually takes the opportunity to hear it, I believe he picks up his wallet and sees pictures of his family. And then Ned says, yeah, I lost my wife. And all of a sudden, you see this character in a completely new light.

[1:01:57] Ste Clough: Exactly. And he's annoying. In the beginning of the act, he has this little jingle, because it's a musical, he can have a jingle. And he's like, death will come to everyone. You gotta love life, you gotta love life, you gotta love life, insurance. But then goes to the end of his song, and he finishes it with just singing, you've gotta love life, you've gotta love life. And it's heartbreaking. I remember just listening to it and seeing the staging of it. And I was crying, just the idea of heartbreak. And everyone, no matter what they're going through, has to get out of bed at the beginning of the day, and has to take the opportunity that they can because there's going to be one day where you can't. And I think that knowledge is then the turn and effect for Phil. And that's what takes it into his last day. And he doesn't know that, but it's the day that he then spends the entire day doing everything he can to help people.

[1:03:02] Ste Clough: Now, one of the reasons we're covering Groundhog Day today is because one of our listeners of a musical theatre podcast, Michael Lindner, reached out to me to let me know he had been cast in a new Australian revival of the show, still starring Andy Karl, by the way, and including most of the original creative team. It's incredibly exciting, and I was so excited for him. The production is currently running at Melbourne's Princess Theatre for only 13 weeks, and then it's done. Period. It's not touring Australia. The PR team really wanted me to drive that home. In any case, I'm so pleased that he's here to talk a little bit about his experience. Please welcome everyone, actor, teacher, Australian extraordinaire, Michael Lindner! Yay!

[1:04:51] Michael Lindner: Oh, I love that. Thank you very much. Before we start, I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land from which I'm speaking on, the Wurundjeri and the Boon Wurrung people. And I'd also like to extend my respects to their elders, past, present, and emerging. So thank you for that.

[1:05:06] Ste Clough: That's beautiful. Thank you for that. And congratulations! My gosh, what a fun, cool thing to be a part of. How are things going over there?

[1:05:16] Michael Lindner: Really good. It's hectic. This was exciting. Australia's musical theatre industry would not be as big as what people would have overseas in, say, the West End or Broadway. But it was very strange. At the time, we had four auditions going at the same time. So we're all sort of like big things, big shows. And this is the one everyone wanted to get. And when you got that call that you got the gig in Groundhog Day, my goodness, very exciting.

[1:05:46] Ste Clough: That's so cool. That's so cool. Now, I think I have it on pretty good authority that director, your director, Matthew Warchus's mind is like a special mathematical playground. Is that fair to say?

[1:05:57] Michael Lindner: Definitely. You will get notes that are so nuanced and so particular and just really hit the point straight away that you totally understand what he's getting at. And then there's that sort of just that crazy imagination. Yeah, it's pretty amazing.

[1:06:13] Ste Clough: That also has to be part of why the show is kind of nonstop for you all, too, right?

[1:06:18] Michael Lindner: Yeah, definitely. And especially the first 40 minutes, like for the ensemble.

[1:06:22] Ste Clough: Really? I mean, Andy Karl does not stop. He's a marathon runner. And for the ensemble, that first 40 minutes, day one, two and three, it's as you've probably spoken about, you know, you have day one and it's quite lovely. And then day two, day three, everything gets more hectic and more truncated as you go along. And the costume changes get more and more scary.

[1:06:44] Michael Lindner: Ambitious.

[1:06:49] Ste Clough: Definitely ambitious. Thank goodness for our wonderful wardrobe staff and dresses. They are incredible. I'm so glad you brought that up.

[1:06:57] Michael Lindner: Often we'll come off the stage. We're not sure where to go and someone will go, over here. And Mooney and Freya, big shout out to them. They just keep me on track each time.

[1:07:06] Ste Clough: Oh, that's so sweet. That's amazing. Now, even though you have this like, you know, map, if you will, of a show that you're following, it also seems this original team isn't too precious with what they've done before. So does it feel like a new production of Groundhog Day?

[1:07:24] Michael Lindner: They're not precious. They have changed things around to suit the people in the ensemble. And the feedback we're getting from audiences and friends are just like how the ensemble just really gives Punxsutawney that real character and, you know, makes it a really beautiful place to be.

[1:07:41] Ste Clough: So I said earlier in the episode that what I find to be one of the most emotional moments of the film Groundhog Day is when Phil starts trying to save the homeless man.

[1:07:50] Michael Lindner: Mm hmm.

[1:07:51] Ste Clough: Now, in the musical, he actually has a name, and you get to know and you know him quite well.

[1:07:56] Michael Lindner: Yes. And it's, in a way, it's lovely, because you don't have many lines to learn. So there's not much pressure as Jensen. But it's a really poignant part for Phil and a big lesson for him. But yeah, definitely kicks Phil off on another journey of understanding and being present in the moment and really appreciating simple things and life in general. And it's, yeah, love it. Every night I get to pop off the immortal coil several times.

[1:08:28] Ste Clough: Live out the wish fulfillment of coming back to life every—

[1:08:32] Michael Lindner: Exactly.

[1:08:32] Ste Clough: Several times a night.

[1:08:33] Michael Lindner: I mean, that's a theme in the show anyway, isn't it? That coming back to life.

[1:08:37] Ste Clough: For sure. For sure.

[1:08:38] Michael Lindner: I find it so touching that this show explores those themes through the relationships of guys. I don't know if that makes sense. And certainly the character of Rita creates something in Phil that he didn't know existed before. But here are these guys that you have very specific assumptions about at the beginning. Like, we always knew that Rita was cool, right? That wasn't a surprise. But to find out the stories and the inner world of these characters, I feel like that is why they are some of the greatest instruments for change in Phil's life.

[1:09:21] Ste Clough: Yeah, I think it's partly the thing that men aren't taught that language of vulnerability and expression and all that sort of stuff. And especially Phil. Everything's covered up with sarcasm and judgment. And that you do have these two men. One of them, like Jensen, because he's pretty much a broken... he's a human being at the end of his journey. Ned has had experiences that have opened him up as well. And I think that's a really beautiful device of the show that we probably, as an audience, you probably judge the characters as well. And then in Act 2, you also get Nancy's story. And suddenly we go, oh, there's more to these people than what we're just given, you know? And then Nancy's a window into that. Jensen becomes a window into more. Ned becomes a window into more. And then we start to see things through the eyes of someone like Rita and remind ourselves that what it is to be human. And then Phil...

[1:09:20] Ste Clough: It's when his vulnerability starts to surface that he's able to make changes. And isn't that like the secret, to be able to see something through someone else's eyes? And it's one of the reasons I love theatre, because we do that every single night when we step into somebody else's shoes, and we're there every single time we hear or feel the music coming from somebody's soul. Anyway, it's a beautiful thing that I'm kind of jealous you get to experience right now. I'm kind of jealous of myself. It's just something I never expected. It's such a thrill to be part of it. It's been the most challenging show I've ever had to learn, and we all say that in the ensemble, learning the music, it splits into 8-part, 12-part, and we're all just going, how are we going to get this into our brains?

And we're just like, it's so complex. And Tim mentions revisited parts of it and added extra things into the ensemble with background singing and things like that that were just quite intricate. And yeah, we're definitely challenged every single night doing this show. So let's talk a little bit about Tim Minchin, because can you kind of give us an Australian's perspective on him? Is he well-known there?

[1:10:27] Michael Lindner: Yeah, definitely well-known. He went to the Western Australian Academy of Performing Arts, affectionately known as WAPA, and that's where I first trained. And he's from the music theatre course, and really made a name for himself doing cabarets and comic sort of songs, and an image of ratty kind of hair, and he's got his eyeliner and things. And he's definitely a kooky character, a confident character, also a very warm person who is just very smart. He's an intelligent human being, and you can hear that in his music. Sometimes, like in Groundhog Day, the music really makes sense when you watch the show. Sometimes I've had friends listen to it and go, oh, I didn't quite connect with it. But when they've come to see the show, they've just gone, yeah, it just starts to make sense. And they go, oh, now I get it. And then they go back and listen to it again. They can sort of enjoy it more, having that context of what's going on.

[1:11:25] Ste Clough: Yeah, we'll just wait till you hear the episode, Michael. Just wait till you hear it. So do you think the reason that this Australian production has happened is because of Tim? Is he passionate about bringing his art to the homeland, as it were?

[1:11:38] Michael Lindner: I'm sure that's a part of it. A part of it is just luck that the Old Vic production in London was closing. There was an opening in a theatre in Australia, in Victoria, and the producers, GEWB, went, there's a chance we could take this to Australia. But it was very quick. And then they just worked very hard, and with the Victorian government as well, just sort of made this happen. Because auditions for this only happened, I think, six weeks before rehearsal, which is crazy. Usually it's six months to a year before it's actually open. So they were able to, the scenery was available. So we're using the Old Vic scenery, and it's come over, and it got put in this theatre. And yeah, we just had this amazing team of producers and our stage management team, just incredible. They worked so hard, and very long hours, and all the tech crew putting all that together. So yeah, it was just one of those fortuitous situations where they said, let's do it, and they did.

[1:12:47] Ste Clough: Michael, thank you so much for sitting down with us for just a moment. I know that you need to rest the gift, but is there anything else you want to share before you go?

[1:12:58] Michael Lindner: Just thank you also for your podcast. As I wrote to you ages ago, it just meant so much to me. I think after lockdown, we had such a lockdown, a long lockdown in Melbourne. I had been doing Billy Elliot at the time, and it crushed a lot of our souls, and we were just worried about theatre. And I went back to full-time teaching, and I kind of had a love-hate relationship with theatre along the way over the years. But your theatre podcast makes me love it, and it's a real, as I said, a love letter to musicals. And it's so pure and beautiful, and I just think it's definitely turned my mind around. Through your actions, I did some independent theatre to get my confidence kind of back. I got a new agent, got into Groundhog Day. All these things have happened, and they're like little sliding door moments. Thanks to you, and I want to definitely thank you for that, and keep it up, because I love listening to the show.

[1:14:03] Ste Clough: Thank you. I don't even know what to say. Goodness gracious. But I'm very grateful. Who knew that this type of thing would allow me to have connections with wonderful people like you all over the world? I'm just grateful.

[1:14:15] Michael Lindner: Oh, as am I. And if you ever come to Australia, definitely look me up, and we'll show you around.

[1:14:20] Ste Clough: Cross my heart. I would love that.

[1:14:21] Michael Lindner: Get here in the next few weeks, and you can come and see the show.

[1:14:23] Ste Clough: Right. 12 weeks to go, everyone.

[1:14:27] ⚠ About 3 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[1:17:45] Ste Clough: And it is.

[1:17:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, he's stunned, to say the least, right?

[1:17:49] Ste Clough: Absolutely.

[1:17:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So how does the show end?

[1:17:52] Ste Clough: In classic Matthew Walters fashion, there's a bench facing upstage.

[1:17:57] Ste Clough: And him and Rita run out of the room, getting dressed, and he watches the sunrise.

[1:18:06] Ste Clough: You know, the first words that the Groundhog hears sing is,

[1:18:12] Ste Clough: "I was born on a Punxsutawney dawn, at sunrise on a sunless day."

[1:18:17] Ste Clough: And we end the show with clear skies and this beautiful sunrise on the back wall.

[1:18:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so fantastic.

[1:18:25] Ste Clough: Another maybe level of storytelling that we haven't discussed is that it is winter, right?

[1:18:30] Ste Clough: We are in this cold winter.

[1:18:32] Ste Clough: And for anyone who has lived through cold winters, there's just this acceptance that it's not going to always be this way.

[1:18:40] Ste Clough: And the emotional truth found in that, that we have in our regular lives, that yeah, there are winters that we go through.

[1:18:44] Ste Clough: And you just have to believe that one day the sun's going to come out, and it's going to be blue skies.

[1:18:51] Ste Clough: And if not tomorrow, then tomorrow, then tomorrow, there will be sun.

[1:18:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[1:18:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, that's some good storytelling right there.

[1:19:02] Ste Clough: Woo!

[1:19:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I like it.

[1:19:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We did it.

[1:19:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you so much for doing this with me, Steve.

[1:19:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I can't imagine that this show would get done by community theaters, do you?

[1:19:11] Ste Clough: Well, there was actually a time where I went to see it in a, it was a non-equity regional theater just out of, in Aurora, in Illinois.

[1:19:25] Ste Clough: I saw a production of it there.

[1:19:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[1:19:26] Ste Clough: They did release it.

[1:19:28] Ste Clough: But with this new wave and this new production that's coming through, they're kind of removing those rights to lay pathway to this new production that's sweeping the world.

[1:19:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's cool.

[1:19:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I hope we all get to see it because I don't think enough of us got to see it last time.

[1:19:44] Ste Clough: No.

[1:19:45] Ste Clough: I'm really excited to see it.

[1:19:46] Ste Clough: I hope I get to see it too.

[1:19:47] Ste Clough: And just, you know, to experience something that is the same, but eight years later is going to be very, very exciting.

[1:19:55] Ste Clough: After a pandemic, after so much that has happened in the world, I think there's a lot to explore here.

[1:20:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, how cool.

[1:20:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you for exploring it with me today.

[1:20:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast@gmail.com.

[1:20:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Please follow us on social media.

[1:20:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We got our Instagram, our X, and our TikTok accounts that are always filled with great content.

[1:20:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We've also got Patreon! that you can subscribe to for only a dollar.

[1:20:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I didn't do this in January, which I usually do, but I'm happy to do so now.

[1:20:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: If you want a free one-year subscription to Patreon, which let's be honest, you're only saving $12.

[1:20:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But if you do want a free subscription to Patreon! write us a nice review.

[1:20:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Take a screen grab of it.

[1:20:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Send it to amusicalpodcast@gmail.com and I'll buy it for you because I really appreciate those reviews.

[1:20:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: They help us find new audiences.

[1:20:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We also have our TeePublic store with great designs.

[1:20:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We give those profits to Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS.

[1:21:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So much great stuff happening and I'm grateful you're a part of it.

[1:21:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey, Steve, how do we follow you?

[1:21:05] Ste Clough: What's going on?

[1:21:06] Ste Clough: I am really only on Instagram.

[1:21:09] Ste Clough: I find it very overwhelming to be on all platforms.

[1:21:12] Ste Clough: But you can find me on Instagram.

[1:21:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I completely understand.

[1:21:16] Ste Clough: But you can find me on Instagram.

[1:21:18] Ste Clough: It's stee_underscore_creative.

[1:21:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Awesome.

[1:21:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Awesome.

[1:21:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you're teaching.

[1:21:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Are you in the middle of a semester right now?

[1:21:24] Ste Clough: Yeah.

[1:21:25] Ste Clough: So I'm in the middle of a semester.

[1:21:26] Ste Clough: So being the director of musical theater at Brunel University just outside Atlanta, I'm excited in having a new chapter in life.

[1:21:32] Ste Clough: You know, as much as what we've been talking about is I loved my life as a performer.

[1:21:40] Ste Clough: Definitely don't want to do that anymore.

[1:21:42] Ste Clough: I love my life as a director and choreographer.

[1:21:45] Ste Clough: And I want I am continuing to do that.

[1:21:49] Ste Clough: But it's about understanding focus on, you know, what is right for you.

[1:21:54] Ste Clough: And at this moment in time, and mine is my family.

[1:21:57] Ste Clough: You know, I have two little girls.

[1:21:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You got babies.

[1:22:00] Ste Clough: I got babies.

[1:22:01] Ste Clough: So I'm just spending this time being able to be in one place, raise a family.

[1:22:08] Ste Clough: And yeah, there will be shows coming down the pipeline that I have the honor of working on as a director and choreographing.

[1:22:16] Ste Clough: And we'll find out when they arrive.

[1:22:18] Ste Clough: But for now, I'm happy being here, fine and present.

[1:22:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[1:22:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you learned that from a musical.

[1:22:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You probably learned it from many other things, but we'll give it to the musical for right now.

[1:22:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you again.

[1:22:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Listeners, you're the best.

[1:22:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thanks for tuning in.

[1:22:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And happy Groundhog's Day.

[1:22:38] Ste Clough: Is it Groundhog's Day or Groundhog Day?

[1:22:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Groundhog Day.

[1:22:42] Ste Clough: No, there's only one Groundhog.

[1:22:44] Ste Clough: There's no like apostrophe s?

[1:22:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No.

[1:22:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, if you learn nothing else from this episode, I feel like that was some good content.

[1:22:49] Ste Clough: That was some great content.

[1:22:53] Ste Clough: That was the best.