This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Sara Kapner: I wish I had the power to create one of those BuzzFeed surveys. And the survey would be like, what Into the Woods character are you during quarantine? I'm Jack's mother for sure. Like no doubt about it. Just like panicked and annoying. Just completely neurotic. Like truly. The sky's falling. I think I've become a little red and that I can't stop eating. I just did order bread.

[0:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Did you?

[0:29] Sara Kapner: Yeah, we like we are like trying to support, you know, local whatever, for sure. And at 7am this morning, we got a knock on our door that our bread has arrived and we got like, a loaf of sourdough and a loaf of sandwich bread and like some babka and some bagels and treats and I'm like, wow, truly living that little red life.

[0:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we're talking Into the Woods with Miss Sara Kapner. Hi, Sara.

[1:20] Sara Kapner: I'm so grateful you're here via my phone to discuss the show. I feel like you're the perfect guest. You're such a theater icon. In many ways.

[1:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my god, Jeff.

[1:37] Sara Kapner: Don't you think so though? I mean, you have to mean that's like literally the nicest thing that anybody's ever said to me. I don't know if I like can totally agree with that sentiment. But I feel like I'm gonna say you're like the Ashley Judd of musical theater, in which like you are your own genre. Like I'd be like, hey, we need a Sara Kapner type.

[2:00] Sara Kapner: I'm literally gonna cry. That is so nice. I have a really good friend. I'm sure you know her name. But her name is Betsy Morgan. She's kind of like iconic. And we were in the same acting class for years and a breakdown came out that said Betsy Morgan type. And we were all like, you've made it like you've made it. But seriously, Donna McKechnie said once that she couldn't get seen for a role that said Donna McKechnie type. Those are my favorite stories ever. Like, are you kidding me?

[2:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I've heard that one before. That's insane. Talk to me about The Band's Visit. So you guys...

[2:36] Sara Kapner: My beloved.

[2:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, so you're currently in this national tour, the first national of the Tony award winning best musical The Band's Visit. So cool. Speaking about like some of the best shows ever written, like truly, in my opinion, one of the best shows ever.

[2:55] Sara Kapner: Yeah, we're on a hiatus for now. We don't really know when we're going to return. But we are told that we will return when it is safe to do so. And I am really looking forward to that day because that show is so special. And it was so not done being shared with the rest of the country, right? Equity has been our union has been incredible at like, talking to the producers and helping us all get on the same page. And so we are all slated to return and finish out our contracts. We just don't know when that's gonna be.

[3:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fingers crossed. And you have Into the Woods experience because you played Little Red at the Muni with like, the most all-star cast ever.

[3:40] Sara Kapner: Like, actually, it was insane. It was really insane. I can't even believe it. So it was you as Little Red. You had freaking Heather Headley, goddess of Aida, as the witch.

[3:50] Sara Kapner: Literally couldn't even get over it. Still can't get over it. I mean, I will still pull up the b-roll from the production just to hear her sing like eight bars of Stay With Me. Like Her Children Will Listen is iconic. And then you had Jason Gotay as Jack, right?

[4:11] Sara Kapner: Yes, he is one of my oldest and dearest friends.

[4:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, seriously? Oh how funny.

[4:18] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[4:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How cute.

[4:19] Sara Kapner: Yeah, you didn't know that?

[4:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, that's so sweet.

[4:21] Sara Kapner: Spoiler alert, he was my very first boyfriend. We were very much in love. And you know, as one does, he came out like, later in life, and we became like, true best friends. And so we've, we've been best friends since we were 15. And this for us was like...

[4:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The chemistry of it all.

[4:40] Sara Kapner: I know. This was a true bucket list moment for us. And, and I mean, we were like, in New York City at the Professional Performing Arts School, seeing shows on Broadway, and like sitting front row, like little nerds. And so like, for us to be up on the Muny stage with like, Heather Headley spitting in our face, we were like, this is the best moment of our lives. So us getting to do that job together was like, a dream come true.

[5:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's, that's pretty fantastic. Now, the last person I wanted to talk about from the cast is Aaron Dilley, who played...

[5:14] Sara Kapner: Oh my god, icon, like icon, like the best person.

[5:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, I'm just putting this out there. If you get Aaron Dilley to do my podcast, and talk about Martin Gare, because I've been obsessed with it. And then she was like, on a tour that was going to Broadway, and then something happened, and it never made it. And I've been obsessed with it ever since. If, if you can make this happen, I will do something dramatic. I will, I will bake, I'll bake you cookies and overnight them. That's what I'll do.

[5:47] Sara Kapner: All right. That is a challenge I will accept, gladly.

[5:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, thank you.

[5:51] Sara Kapner: I will, I will work my hardest to make this happen.

[5:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you. I appreciate it.

[5:56] Sara Kapner: She's an icon.

[5:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, she is. Okay, but you may be most well known. That's right. The Sara intro is still continuing. You...

[6:05] Sara Kapner: Oh my god.

[6:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think people may know you best for your thrilling role in the Lifetime film, Murder Pact. Now, I wanted to bring up Murder Pact, because number one, iconic.

[6:25] Sara Kapner: In that film. And you wear a red cape, again! Wait, and actually, we filmed that the year that I did Into the Woods at the Muny. It was the year of the red cape. I felt like I had more Instagram photos of me in red capes than, I mean, maybe anybody ever. I mean, it's truly an honor. I wear... The Sara Kapner type always involves a red cape. A red cape. Or roller skates at this point.

[6:56] Jeff Parsons: Do you roller skate a lot?

[6:57] Sara Kapner: I roller skate in the band's visit, baby.

[6:59] Jeff Parsons: Oh, of course.

[7:00] Sara Kapner: Yeah. Did you roller skate before?

[7:02] Jeff Parsons: No!

[7:03] Sara Kapner: I learned to roller skate when I was a kid, because this is like a stupid fun fact, but I peaked at 12, and I got two Broadway shows at one time, never to receive an offer for a Broadway show again. However...

[7:17] Jeff Parsons: Wait, I know that you did...

[7:19] Sara Kapner: I know you did Hollywood Arms, Carol Burnett play.

[7:22] Sara Kapner: Yeah, when I was 12. And I also, that same year, got into the children's chorus of Baz Luhrmann's La Boheme, and some of those children needed to roller skate. So I learned to roller skate back then. So I mean, and also, how many of us, we all roller bladed as children. So I knew how to roller blade slash skate, but this is a different kind of coordination that you need when you're like, there is a stage that has a precipice that you cannot fall over. So it's not the easiest, but now we're so used to it that I like, I'm not like roller derby status, but I do feel very comfortable on skates.

[8:07] Jeff Parsons: I have often thought about how much roller skating is involved in musical theater.

[8:11] Sara Kapner: I'm so ready for Xanadu. I think there's something thrilling and scary about watching people on roller skates because you're like, will they be okay? And then when they are, you're like, wow, that was thrilling. Might I say, excited and scared.

[8:28] Jeff Parsons: The motto of my life.

[8:29] Sara Kapner: Amen. Now, today we're covering Into the Woods because a listener requested it. So thank you, Amanda, for requesting Into the Woods.

[8:39] Jeff Parsons: You're right. And in her email request for us to do Into the Woods, she kind of spelled out why, and I actually want to read what she said, because it's pretty beautiful. This is part of it. She wrote, it is magical, it is magnetic, but also pedagogic. It's a $5 vocab word.

[9:00] Sara Kapner: Why do I not know what that means?

[9:06] Jeff Parsons: I could make a guess, but I think I need a full definition to be like, oh, yeah, totally.

[9:12] Sara Kapner: I'm going to bring up the Merriam-Webster so that we can... pedagogic or pedagogical means relating to teaching.

[9:22] Jeff Parsons: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Thanks, Amanda. Continuing on, the show is littered with overt messages and morals, as is fitting for a compilation of fairy tales about parenthood and childhood, love and loss and longing, and being.

[9:40] ⚠ About 3 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[13:00] Sara Kapner: Mother cannot guide you, now you're on your own.

[13:08] Jeff Parsons: It's Matthew, Matthew Malecki.

[13:16] Sara Kapner: You may know what you need, but to get what you want, and my other one is definitely, opportunity is not a lengthy visitor.

[13:28] Casey Guise: Hi, this is Casey Guise from Bangor, Maine. I love INTO THE WOODS, and I love when Jack says, I buried her in a footprint. This line gets a different reaction from the audience every time I see a production. Sometimes the audience laughs, sometimes there's silence, they miss the line. Sometimes there's a mixed reaction. I think it's a devastating line. I cry every time, and then I think about how Jack is trying to make the best out of a terrible situation, this awful thing that's happening to them, and that's very relevant for today.

[14:01] Jeff Parsons: Alright, so thank you everybody who sent in those voice messages. You're amazing, and this episode is dedicated to all of you. Now, INTO THE WOODS was written, of course, words and music by Stephen Sondheim, book by James Lapine, who also directed it. They had worked together previously on Sunday in the Park with George, I think in '84, '83-'84, and that show was one of the few musicals to win the Pulitzer Prize for Drama, so they were coming off a big hit, at least artistically, because let's be honest, most of Sondheim's shows aren't huge financial hits. So they're now looking for something else to do together, and Sondheim decides that he wants to do kind of a quest musical, a musical akin to, say, The Wizard of Oz. Man, they really did it.

[14:56] Sara Kapner: Right? Seriously.

[14:58] Jeff Parsons: In the meantime, however, they also approach Chuck Lorre, who has basically created every CBS sitcom that you can think of, and they approach him about doing this project where all of the characters of all of his famous CBS sitcoms interact, like they come together in, I think, maybe a hospital setting or something like that, and Chuck Lorre likes it and asks them to write a screenplay. They're not really interested in writing a screenplay, though. They just wanted to pitch the idea, I think, and be producers on it. So that project gets set aside, but they use the mashup concept with the original desire to create a quest musical, and voila, Into the Woods is born.

[15:43] Sara Kapner: I love that, a quest musical.

[15:45] Jeff Parsons: Right? They put it together in workshops, and then it premieres in San Diego, West Coast, at the Old Globe Theater in 1986. At that point, I believe, is when No One Is Alone gets written for the show. Up until that point, it didn't exist. He wrote it while they were in rehearsals in San Diego. Also at that point, The Witch was played by Ellen Foley, and this woman out, have you ever heard of her?

[16:16] Sara Kapner: No. Who is that?

[16:18] Jeff Parsons: She was a television actor in the '80s. She was on that show Night Court for many seasons, and she also had a recording career working with Meat Loaf, and that was one of her big collaborations.

[16:34] Sara Kapner: Meat Loaf is kind of like a gateway drug into musical theater, I feel.

[16:39] Jeff Parsons: Halleloo.

[16:40] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[16:41] Jeff Parsons: I completely agree. That is some high drama. If you go on Spotify and listen to this woman, because her voice is insane.

[16:49] Sara Kapner: It's amazing.

[16:50] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. She has this huge Pat Benatar voice.

[16:55] Sara Kapner: Ooh, I love some Pat Benatar.

[16:57] Jeff Parsons: Right? And I'm not entirely sure why she was replaced by Bernadette Peters, who is flawless in my estimations.

[17:05] Sara Kapner: Well, we know Sondheim loves Bernadette.

[17:07] Jeff Parsons: For sure. I mean, obviously, she had been in Sunday in the Park. But I also think that Ellen Foley, according to her IMDb, she was in Fatal Attraction, which came out at the same time as Into the Woods. So I wonder if she just decided to focus more on film.

[17:25] Sara Kapner: I'm sure that was it.

[17:27] Jeff Parsons: And so then Bernadette comes over and takes over. What's kind of funny, though, is Bernadette then left Into the Woods pretty early to do her own film stuff, and Phylicia Rashad takes over.

[17:38] Sara Kapner: What?

[17:39] Jeff Parsons: What?

[17:40] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[17:41] Jeff Parsons: Do you know Phylicia Rashad was my fiancé's college acting teacher?

[17:44] Sara Kapner: I have no words.

[17:46] Jeff Parsons: I know. And then he went on to do St. Joan with her daughter on Broadway.

[17:52] Sara Kapner: Get out. Get out of here.

[17:54] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. So we love them. But then Ellen comes back to Broadway and does The Witch at some point.

[18:00] Sara Kapner: Oh, she does?

[18:01] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. And I can't find any footage of it.

[18:03] Sara Kapner: Well, it ran for like two years, right, when it originally opened?

[18:06] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, exactly. It opens on Broadway. It runs, I think, just over 700 performances.

[18:13] Sara Kapner: Pretty good.

[18:14] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, which is, I mean, especially for a Sondheim show. He doesn't usually get much more than that. It's considered a hit. It comes out the same season as the juggernaut known as Phantom of the Opera.

[18:27] Sara Kapner: And so at the Tony Awards, Phantom was expected to just sweep everything because it's, you know, Phantom.

[18:36] Jeff Parsons: However, Into the Woods wins Best Book, Best Music, and Best Actress for Joanna Gleason, which is impressive because for Phantom to, you know, be the biggest show almost of ever and to lose Best Book and Best Music to Into the Woods is saying something.

[18:59] Sara Kapner: It's a pretty big statement.

[19:00] Jeff Parsons: But how can you even compare the music?

[19:03] Sara Kapner: You just can't.

[19:04] Jeff Parsons: You can't. You really, they're on two different planes.

[19:08] Sara Kapner: Agreed.

[19:09] Jeff Parsons: Bernadette doesn't get nominated for Best Actress.

[19:12] Sara Kapner: Which is, I, like, almost just gagged. Like, that's actually insane.

[19:17] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. The actress nominees that year were Alison Fraser for Romance, Romance, who is, do you know Romance, Romance?

[19:26] Sara Kapner: No.

[19:27] Jeff Parsons: It's this four-person show. It's kind of weird. I've actually done it.

[19:31] Sara Kapner: That tracks, I feel.

[19:34] Jeff Parsons: Right? The first act takes place in, like, the Victorian era. And then the second act is like, modern day. And both are these little romantic stories. And the music's fantastic. They're like, if you want a good audition song, go to Romance, Romance. Because, man.

[19:54] Sara Kapner: Really?

[19:55] Jeff Parsons: It's just full of them.

[19:56] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[19:57] Jeff Parsons: Oh, my goodness. I got to educate myself. Then you got Joanna Gleeson for playing the baker's wife.

[20:03] Sara Kapner: Who, in my opinion, is like the great Bambino of musical theater.

[20:09] Jeff Parsons: Oh, my gosh.

[20:10] Sara Kapner: Yeah. Like, in terms of getting a funny musical theater line and just, like, knocking it out of the park. You know what I mean? She's just going to hit a home run every time.

[20:19] Jeff Parsons: Every single time. Also, we could do a whole podcast just about the baker's wife.

[20:25] Sara Kapner: Oh, for sure. That is, in my opinion, the best role in the show.

[20:31] Jeff Parsons: And that's saying something.

[20:33] Sara Kapner: True.

[20:34] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. Then we have also got Judy Kuhn, who was nominated for Chess.

[20:38] Sara Kapner: It's interesting that.

[20:39] Jeff Parsons: Judy Kuhn was in this?

[20:41] Sara Kapner: No.

[20:42] Jeff Parsons: Sorry. The Tony Awards.

[20:44] Sara Kapner: Oh, right, right, right.

[20:45] Jeff Parsons: She was nominated for Chess. And then Patti LuPone was nominated for Anything Goes. And I think Patti was upset because she thought she was going to win.

[20:52] Sara Kapner: No comment.

[20:53] Jeff Parsons: No comment. I love Patti, but.

[20:55] Sara Kapner: Oh, for sure.

[20:56] Jeff Parsons: Then, for Best Musical, the nominees were Into the Woods, Phantom of the Opera, which wins, Romance, Romance, which we've also talked about, and Serafina.

[21:05] Sara Kapner: Have you ever heard of that show?

[21:07] Jeff Parsons: No.

[21:08] Sara Kapner: It's interesting.

[21:09] Jeff Parsons: It's a South African musical about apartheid.

[21:12] Sara Kapner: What?

[21:13] Jeff Parsons: Oh, my God. Why hasn't it got a revival?

[21:16] Sara Kapner: That sounds like it needs to be revived yesterday.

[21:18] Jeff Parsons: Seriously. And Whoopi Goldberg turned it into a film in, like, '92.

[21:23] Sara Kapner: Where have I been, truly?

[21:25] Jeff Parsons: So let's go check out Serafina next.

[21:28] Sara Kapner: That's what I'm screaming. Let's check out Serafina.

[21:32] Jeff Parsons: What's really cool, I think, about Into the Woods is that it's kind of a pioneer. I think it's one of the first projects that subverted nostalgia in a big artistic way.

[21:38] Sara Kapner: Certainly.

[21:45] Jeff Parsons: Specifically with the fairy tales, right? This was before Shrek or Wicked or Snow White and the Huntsman and Maleficent or even that TV show Once Upon a Time.

[21:55] Sara Kapner: It's the first out of all of those.

[21:58] Jeff Parsons: And I think that what it gets really right is that it's subversive while, number one, respecting the journeys of the original characters in their stories, and at the same time, revealing a greater truth or even a more profound truth than was even explored originally. Because you look at, say, Shrek, and at least with the original film...

[22:23] Sara Kapner: Also an excellent musical.

[22:24] Jeff Parsons: It is a good musical. I love Shrek. But when I look at that original film, the greatest feeling I get for them is, we're not a Disney film. That's what they were screaming louder than anything.

[22:38] Sara Kapner: And then with something like Wicked, which is also incredibly successful in my opinion, but it completely negates the Dorothy experience of Wizard of Oz in order to reach the heights that it does.

[22:56] Jeff Parsons: And Into the Woods doesn't fall into either of those traps, which I think is very impressive.

[22:59] Sara Kapner: You know what else I'm so obsessed with about Into the Woods?

[23:04] Jeff Parsons: What's that?

[23:05] Sara Kapner: Ugh, so many things. The fact that the two acts can stand alone by themselves almost.

[23:14] Jeff Parsons: Yes.

[23:15] Sara Kapner: And they are so different. It's mind-blowing.

[23:19] Jeff Parsons: Has an intermission ever been more expertly used?

[23:23] Sara Kapner: No, honestly.

[23:24] Jeff Parsons: Probably not.

[23:25] Sara Kapner: I don't think so.

[23:26] Jeff Parsons: The first time I saw Into the Woods was a community production of it, and I had friends in it. And I remember, I'd say half of the audience leapt to their feet at the end of the first act because they thought it was over. You could certainly leave after the first act and learn a million things and have a wonderfully moving, altering experience. It still functions as a musical in one act.

[23:49] Sara Kapner: And to be fair, if I'm being totally honest with you, I think most musicals should be 90 no's.

[24:02] Jeff Parsons: 90 minute, no intermission.

[24:03] Sara Kapner: Agreed.

[24:04] Jeff Parsons: 90 no's?

[24:05] Sara Kapner: Oh my gosh. I've never heard it expressed that way, and it's stolen. I've officially taken it from you.

[24:10] Jeff Parsons: A 90 no?

[24:11] Sara Kapner: 90 no.

[24:12] Jeff Parsons: You can have it.

[24:13] Sara Kapner: Thank you.

[24:14] Jeff Parsons: The last two shows that I've done are 90 no's, and the fact that I can eat dinner at a normal hour and go to bed at a normal time is amazing. And I think that most musicals should be a 90 no, but Into the Woods cannot be a 90 no.

[24:27] Sara Kapner: No.

[24:28] Jeff Parsons: It's one of maybe five musicals that I think cannot be a 90 no, obviously. And it's like, is it long? Yeah. But you know what? So is Nicholas Nickleby.

[24:37] Sara Kapner: Yeah, for sure.

[24:38] Jeff Parsons: And if you all are paying big time money to go see Harry Potter, not once but twice, to see the full show, you can sit for three hours and watch all of Into the Woods.

[24:48] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[24:50] Jeff Parsons: My brother would beg to differ who saw it at the Muny and was not thrilled about being in 100 degree heat for three hours, but that's a whole other thing.

[24:58] Sara Kapner: Oh, shoot. Was it really that hot?

[25:00] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, it was so hot.

[25:01] Sara Kapner: Oh, yeah, and I was wearing a fur coat, baby. In those production stills, you look dewy and not sweaty, and that's impressive.

[25:08] Jeff Parsons: Well, it's because they keep the dressing rooms at a cool 45 so that when you go back out, you can kind of handle it.

[25:16] Sara Kapner: You know what also is interesting is that Into the Woods got some pretty terrible reviews when it came out.

[25:23] Jeff Parsons: Man, the '80s were such a different time for musical theater.

[25:27] Sara Kapner: Well, and that's for sure, too. Also, this was like the antithesis of what was going on because wasn't this like when Andrew Lloyd Webber was at his peak?

[25:36] Jeff Parsons: This was like right before Cats, right?

[25:38] Sara Kapner: This was after Cats.

[25:39] Jeff Parsons: After Cats. After Phantom of the Opera, the Disney stuff was probably just happening because the Disney stuff was early '90s, right? That was like a huge shift in Broadway. So this is right in the middle of the British invasion, which is kind of the death of American musical theater.

[25:55] Sara Kapner: Sure.

[25:56] Jeff Parsons: So it's kind of like unprecedented what happened with Into the Woods.

[26:01] Sara Kapner: Oh my God, so badly. So the show opens with a narrator who is telling the story of these fairy tales. Now, these fairy tales come from two sources: number one, the Brothers Grimm, and then Charles Perrault. These are two very famous writers who created most of the fairy tales that we now know. They are also kind of infamous for having quite a bit of childhood psychology found within them, so I think that makes them ripe for this type of analysis. The narrator is telling the story, and we meet Cinderella, we meet Jack, and we meet two characters known as the baker and his wife. Now, the main part of this first section is this idea of desire, of wishing, of wanting for something, and each of them wants something.

The original "I Want" song, if you will, for sure, right off the bat. So you got Cinderella, who wants to go to the festival. She's dying for it, imprisoned, enslaved in her own home to her stepmother and sisters. I love that Cinderella's father is alive and just kind of not present. He's like a drunk who's not present, which is an interesting detail that Cinderella doesn't often get.

[27:00] Sara Kapner: Yeah, you've got Jack, who wants his cow to give some milk. His cow, named Milky White, needs to give some milk because they're incredibly poor. Jack's got to get rid of the cow. And then you've got the baker and his wife, who many say are like original characters, but they are, I was going to say, do you know if they're in any storybooks? They are in the original Rapunzel in the fact that Rapunzel has an origin story in the original tale. What they want is lineage; they want a wife to get some baked goods because she's on her way to Granny's house. Yeah, and that is Little Red's reason for going into the woods is that she's making this delivery to Granny's house. They tell her to make sure to stay on the path.

Good advice, right? Good advice. The version of Little Red, how would you describe her? She's hungry. She's starving, starving, starving. You know that little girl ain't following that path just from meeting her. The very first jump, what I love about the prologue of this is she is stuffing her face in between singing a patter song, which is like one of those things that you wouldn't think is so hard, but it actually is really hard.

[28:00] Sara Kapner: Oh, I'm sure. Where do you swallow saliva? It's more about the gathering, for sure. I know for our production, we used meringues because they dissolve faster in your mouth. Smart. Yeah, and delicious. It was great. It was very refreshing on like a hot summer day. I bet. So then Little Red is off. After Little Red leaves, then we meet the witch from next door, who lives next door to the baker and his wife. She sings the most epic rap in all of musical theater, including Hamilton. She raps about what vegetables. Iconic. She has this whole spiel that she's, I'm not entirely sure why she has waited until now to tell the baker and his wife about this whole curse that has been placed on their household. But for whatever reason, she tells them that the reason they can't get pregnant is because his father, when his mother was pregnant, climbed into her garden and started taking all these vegetables because she was having all of these pregnancy cravings for greens.

[29:00] Sara Kapner: And in the rap, we learn how many greens she has. It's extensive, to say the least. She has a gorgeous garden. Yeah, and like if that wasn't bad enough, along with stealing all of these greens, he also steals some beans. And of all of the garden, these beans are magic. And by taking them out of the garden, it's kind of a forbidden curse that is unleashed. We later find out that that curse is what turned her into the ugly old witch. Up until that point, she had been this beautiful seductress, it seems. Yeah, so like along on this ride, I'm like, yeah, this is a great show. So then the witch tells them, all right, but here's the thing: if you want to undo the curse, I have a little potion for you, and it needs to include the following ingredients. Are you ready? The cow is white, is milk; the cape is red, is blood; the hair is yellow, is corn; the slipper is pure, is what you didn't know you needed on this.

[30:00] Sara Kapner: On this Friday morning, you're exactly right. These are the ingredients that they need to find. So now the baker says, well, I'm going to go into the woods to find these things because that's where you have to go. And the baker's wife is like, but I want to come. He's like, absolutely not. This isn't meant for you. This is a mother says, look, the cow isn't producing any milk. You gotta go sell the cow to market. And so then he heads into the woods. Cinderella wants to go to the ball or this festival, and the stepsisters and stepmother kind of create this horrible thing where they dump lentils into the fireplace and say, okay, you have to pick. What a choice, right? That in the original story, I must have been, I'm there are so many versions of the Cinderella story, but yes, I think it is lentils. And if not, why not chickpeas? And lentils are even tinier, though.

[31:00] Sara Kapner: Yeah, chia seeds. I really appreciate how many vegetables are in the show. This is a very pro-vegetarian, forward, farmer's market moment. Yes, farm-to-table musical. Yeah, there should be like, you know that Sweeney Todd that they had in the pie shop downtown? There should be like a site-specific, well, I mean, you could argue that the Muni was kind of site-specific because we were like in a park. But can you imagine like in a vegetable garden, like a site-specific Into the Woods? I want to go Into the Woods in the garden. Into the Woods in the garden. Yeah, 2021. Do you know what? I'm just going to go ahead and go there. Let's make an Into the Woods theme park where you can go into the witch's garden, and if you try and steal the beans, like there's a bang, crash, the lightning flash. Well, that's another story. Never mind.

[32:00] Sara Kapner: Oh my God, I'm there. I'm so there. Wow. I'm picturing like the Disney World ride, like ride, except we're like, you know, going through the forest. Anyway, thank you. And then toward the end of the day, it just takes a really dark turn, and you never go back. So Cinderella gets all the lentils out. Like she just works her tail off and manages to, you know, do exactly what they say. So weird. And then they still don't let her go to the festival because she doesn't. Because that's kind of one of her sources of light and love and wisdom. So now everybody's headed into the woods for their own reasons. And if I longest prologue in musical theater history, for sure.

[33:00] Sara Kapner: And like 22 minutes or something. Is it really? Yeah, it's in the twenties, I'm pretty sure. So like in rehearsals, you're like, okay, let's run the prologue. Yeah, you're going to need a, it's like, all right, thank you. In case I actually have to spell this out, the woods obviously is a metaphor for just life. Yeah, going into the unknown to find what you want, for better or worse. Speaking of unknown, when you type in Into the Woods, some of the first things that come up are Into the Unknown and Lost in the Woods, both of which are from Frozen too. Wow. Okay, so now they're in the woods. Cinderella's at her mom's grave, and she gets exactly what she wants. The spirit of her mother is there at the grave, which goes right along with the no one is alone theme throughout the show. Like no one's ever really gone in the show.

[34:00] Sara Kapner: Yeah, even a baker's wife comes back at the end. Yeah, exactly. So Cinderella's mom allows her to have this beautiful dress so that she can go to the festival. Wait, can I just say one thing, please? Now you've kind of opened up my eyes. Cinderella literally says, "Mother cannot guide you now. You're on your own." But in the beginning of the show, her mother literally guided her. But by the time she says that, the grave has been destroyed. Oh, that's true. And so she's kind of dealing with the loss of her source of light.

[35:00] Sara Kapner: Okay, okay, fair, fair, fair, fair, fair, fair, fair. Okay, so then Little Red meets the wolf. Now talk to me about this because it's downright creepy, and as it should be. Oh yeah, but it's a little sexual, right? Oh, it's very sexual. The thing is that she doesn't know that it's sexual. So from like my perspective, she's just oblivious, and she's happily eating her treats, and she's like, "Oh, this nice wolf. Hi, Mr. Wolf." Like, you know, what's up? So from that perspective, like it's not as intense. However, like this is something that happens in real life. Like there are predators out there, and you have to be careful. And I think that was something that Sondheim was not trying to shy away from. But also there's something that like as an audience member, you like have the creepy crawlies by watching this. And the only way to kind of do it is by this like undercover sexual energy, you know?

[36:00] Sara Kapner: Yeah, there's something incredibly carnal about a wolf eating a child. Right? I mean, he's hungry, so it's nightmare. Yeah, yeah. So like the subtext is unavoidable, right? There's this girl who has no idea that there's a force trying to destroy her, and she made a fatal error in telling where she was going. Oh yeah, right. So now he knows that she's on the house done stands under three large oak trees. Gotta go find those oak trees. So then his plan is, all right, well, I'm going to eat Granny, and then her—this is going to be a terrific meal. And he goes on his merry way. Meanwhile, the baker finds his wife in the woods.

[39:00] Sara Kapner: Realizes that she didn't stay home. She's like, you need my help. You can't even remember the freaking ingredients that you're supposed to get. And in the process, they run into Jack, who is trying to sell Milky White for gold, you know, so that they can have money. But all that the baker and his wife have are these beans.

[39:23] Exactly. So they have, they find these beans, maybe they're the same ones that the father stole from the witch's garden. So they tell Jack that they have these magic beans in one of my favorite scenes. It's a terrific scene, right? The way that they discover, like the baker and the baker's wife have to communicate non-verbally to communicate this to Jack is so, so funny. They're able to do it. They're able to make the transaction and fool Jack into believing that these, you know, beans are very hard, right? Bless his heart. That these beans are magic. And so he trades his beloved cow in a really sweet moment. I guess this is goodbye, old pal.

[40:10] Yeah. And a perfect friend. So he says goodbye to his beloved cow and takes the beans. The baker feels horribly guilty for, you know, for doing this to this kid. And the wife basically says, man up, dude, do you want a child or not? Like, this isn't the worst lie. Everybody lies. What's important is that we get the prize. And who knows, maybe they're really magic. I'm just like actually stealing every lyric from Sondheim. Well, no, he does say it the best. And I think in some of the best wordplay of the show, if the end is right, it justifies the beans.

[40:55] Have you seen the musical theater compilation? Of course, are you kidding? It's one of my favorites. So there are, for those who don't know, YouTube has a whole bunch of different musical theater compilations, in which they take one line or one section from a musical, and they scour all of the productions of the show, and just do a montage of this one line. And for Into the Woods, they've done a justify the beans and it makes me cry with laughter. It's the best thing.

[41:25] Can I can I tell you something? Please. In The Band's Visit, the musical, actually Mark Ginsburg, local phenomenal LA actor who I know that you are planning something fun with him too in the roller skating scene, it's me and him and the DJ who is played by the telephone guy, Mike's follow. And Mark Ginsburg has to make an exit in the middle of the scene. And I would say nine times out of ten, or I guess seven times out of eight. Mike's a follow goes to Mark Ginsburg, Courtney, take your break.

[42:04] And then, yeah. And scene. One of my favorites. Courtney, take your break. Courtney, take your break. And he goes, okay, in his Israeli accent. Oh my gosh, that's freaking fantastic.

[42:16] So good. So now they have the cow. That's good, right? Yes. One of the five. Then we go back to Little Red, who has arrived at granny's house. She thinks the granny has mighty, you know, sharp teeth. Turns out, I love that this comes so early in the show, right? It's so fun. Turns out it's the wolf. He's already in granny and he eats Little Red. Enter the baker, who saves the day and slices open the wolf and outcomes Little Red and granny. They're saved.

[42:59] And now Little Red kind of very concisely expresses what she's learned from this whole experience. Such a good song. It is different than good. One of my favorite lyrics. Nice is different than good. Excited and scared. I'm telling you, I feel like I quote Little Red more than anybody in the show.

[43:16] Yeah, she has some great one-liners. She does. You know what, I keep bringing up the New York Times review, but it's so, it just fascinated me so much to see the perspective of 1987. The show was criticized for having these moments of clarity in these characters. And I think so, so early on in the show, you've got Little Red, you've got Jack doing Giants in the Sky and Cinderella doing On the Steps of the Palace, all kind of stepping out to say, and this is what I learned.

[43:47] And I think that it's actually so profound because it's playing on this idea of fairy tales and moral stories, and lessons, right? But then at the same time, it's happening at the beginning of the show, meaning that that isn't ultimately the greatest lesson they learn. It's the lesson that takes them to their next lesson. And if, and I think that that is the overriding arc of this whole show, is that choices lead to other choices. And you have to learn from each of them, or then they don't mean anything.

[44:21] Right, right. After I Know Things Now, Cinderella is running from the festival, or is running from the ball, and falls and meets the baker's wife. One of a few times, right? Is it like two or three times?

[44:36] Exactly. So this is the first time that happens. Why do you think Cinderella is running from the ball? It isn't because it's, you know, about to strike midnight. But I think that you could probably find the same metaphor in there.

[44:44] Right, well, she doesn't want to get in trouble with her family. That's number one. I mean, also, it's running, like this whole show is about running. There's so many times when like, they're running through the woods to get one thing and running through the woods to get another and they slam into each other. And like that's, and Cinderella, there's always that joke that she's always falling, running from something.

[45:10] But yeah, I mean, I think she's running from her truth. For sure. Right. I mean, I think of all of the people, she's the one who is the saboteur. She's the one.

[45:22] Yeah, she's the one who doesn't think she's worth what she actually wants. And, and I think that that is, that strikes a chord within me for sure.

[45:30] Yeah, very tragic. Sometimes the scariest thing about getting what you want is that you have to then face your dream. And oh, absolutely. And so she goes to the festival and meets the prince and has this perfect experience and then runs away from it. And I think we all do that to some extent.

[45:57] And so she sits down and has this conversation with the baker's wife who can't understand why on earth she would be running away from this glorious experience and the prince and, and here I am, I'm married to a baker and we make bread and, and it's not glamorous at all. And what is it like to be glamorous? I've always kind of secretly fantasized about it.

[46:12] Yeah, I mean, people baking their loaves of sourdough right now would beg to differ. But for sure. The sourdough craze is really on.

[46:23] Now, in the process of having this great scene, she loses the cow. She loses Milky White. The cow runs away. So now they don't have the cow. Oh, one thing I missed about after I Know Things Now is that because Little Red feels stronger than she did before. She gives the cape. She no longer needs her cape and gives it to the baker.

[46:50] This leads to the first midnight where all of the fairy tale characters kind of come through the stage and have these great one-liners. Like how on earth are you supposed to remember? Can I tell you the funniest story maybe ever? Oh my gosh. I can't wait.

[47:03] So yes, those are really hard to keep track of because you'll be like sitting in your dressing room cooling off and then you'll hear the music and you'll be like, run to the wings. Well, this happened very real for our actress Zoe playing Jack's mother. She missed her cue, but her mic was still on and you just hear her just having a chat and then going, oh, and then, uh, sorry to curse, um, bleed me out, um, in front of 11,000 patrons at the Muny because there really are 11,000 people at the Muny.

[47:56] Yep. 11,000. And, uh, we all just lost it because it was so funny. It was so funny. It was amazing. Honestly, is there anything better like live theater, man?

[48:06] Absolutely not. If you want to see a perfect Rent the Movie. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. So after the first midnight, we get Giants in the Sky, which is Jack's opportunity to say what happened after his mom kind of threw away these beans that he traded away the cow for. A beanstalk grew. He climbs the beanstalk, obviously finds the giant and has this kind of incredible experience.

[48:28] He, you know, makes the giants mad. I feel like he brings down five gold pieces.

[48:35] Yeah. Right. In order to buy his cow back from the baker. So he tries to buy back the cow. The baker's wife has lost the cow. And so they're kind of bumbling trying to figure out what to do. And he's like, is it because you want more money? Well, then fine. I'll go back up the beanstalk and get something more. So then he does.

[49:00] So then he's off. We then meet two princes. The prince's one is looking for Cinderella, who's been running away from the ball. And the other one is Rapunzel's prince. Now, as it turns out, when the witch, oh my gosh, the show is so complex.

[49:17] So complex. It turns out when the witch put the curse on the baker's father, she stole their daughter. Right. And that daughter turns out to be Rapunzel. So Rapunzel and the baker are brother and sister.

[49:33] Exactly. I forgot about that. Yeah. My god. So then the witch hides Rapunzel in a tower and a prince has stumbled upon her in the tower, as is in the story. And so now these princes are kind of sharing their toxic masculinity in talking about how hard it is to want something that is just out of reach.

[50:01] Wow. I so love the way that you put that because it's so, it's so making fun of toxic masculinity. It's like really making fun of itself. Nobody does toxic masculinity like Sondheim. When you look at A Little Night Music, even I think Sweeney Todd has some really interesting stuff.

[50:20] But Agony is funny and it takes a funny look at it. But the baker's wife overhears the prince talking about this maiden in tower with golden hair and she's like, aha, another one of the ingredients we need. So she goes to pull the hair and she does. She gets the hair from Rapunzel. They find Milky Way. They have the hair. They have the cape.

[50:45] And then the baker's wife has met Cinderella, who has some pretty golden slippers that match her outfit that she got from her mom. So they're so close to getting what they want. That was quick. And they sing this adorable song called It Takes Two, which is actually probably one of the most optimistic songs about a relationship that Sondheim has ever written.

[51:01] Wow, that's so real. Meanwhile, the witch has discovered that the prince has been meeting with Rapunzel. She pretends that she's Rapunzel and pushes him out of the tower and he falls into some thorns and it blinds him. And then she punishes Rapunzel.

[51:20] So now this is... And is this when she sings Stay With Me? Yes. Oh, what an amazing song. Now, it's an incredible song. And I think that this is one of the areas where I didn't realize how deep this character is.

[51:35] Yeah. Because if you look at why the witch is putting Rapunzel in a tower, I feel like just growing up, you just accept that that's what witches do. Yeah. But if you look at this, this witch, and who she is, she started out, like we said, before she was, you know, the ugly old witch that we know.

[52:00] Sara Kapner: She was this beautiful woman. She then, not because of her own actions, loses her beauty and is like, well, now I'm never going to meet someone, get married and have a family. So then she steals Rapunzel because she's like, this is the only chance I'll have to have a child, you know, protects her, wants to protect her. But then she starts growing up and becoming beautiful. And she's like, look, girl, I was where you are. I was beautiful. It didn't last. And so stay with me and I'll keep you safe in this tower. That's, that's a freaking real character and a very real parent. I've met that parent before. You know, yes, we all have. There's some profound truths about parenting in this part of the story, for sure. And what's amazing is that it's the witch and Rapunzel who aren't even blood related. Right?

[53:03] Jeff Parsons: My favorite lyric in that song is, "Prince's wait there in the world is true. Prince is yet but wolves and humans too."

[53:09] Sara Kapner: Exactly. They could have written wolves and giants, wolves and, you know, monsters will, you know, but they say wolves and humans. Yeah. Because like, what brought about one of her most tragic moments in her life, a baker, just a mere human who took the beans from the garden, right? Right. It's a gorgeous song. Now the musical motif, and I have to hand this to my dear friend, Ellen McMahon, who's one of the best musical directors I ever worked with. She pointed out to me that the bean motif, you know, when the baker sells or buys Milky White with the beans, and it goes, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum. Yeah. And that is also in "Stay With Me." Stay with me the world. Yeah. And this piece of musical magic, an inversion of that kind of motif is people make mistakes. Oh my god. Are you kidding me? That's crazy. It's freaking insane. Like a full body chills right now. Even just thinking about it.

[54:22] Sara Kapner: I also just love something I love about the show is that every character has their own introduction. Their own musical introduction. It's so great. And so it's so smart. It's so complex. I know. I know. It's so good. It's so good. All right. So then I guess we can probably just skip to Cinderella. Yeah. So Cinderella runs away from the ball again. But the prince, knowing that she's a runner, just decides to put pitch on the stairs. Now Into the Woods is what taught me what pitch means. Yeah. I don't even think I ever even heard the word until Into the Woods. Agreed. But I guess pitch is a very, you know, sticky substance. And so then she's standing there stuck on the steps of the palace. And, you know, she takes the moment to reflect a little bit on her life and why she keeps running away from that, from which she wants.

Is that even a sentence? She keeps running away from what she wants. How about that? Right. That's good. Her conclusion that she comes to is that what she's going to do is not make a decision, but leave a clue to him. Because if, in fact, he really wants her, then maybe he'll put forth a little bit more effort. And so she leaves a shoe in the glue. And now she's running around the woods with just one shoe, which means it's a perfect opportunity to run in with the baker's wife, who explains in a very funny way that she needs her shoe to have a baby. She needs her. That is one of the best lines in musical theater, for sure. And so then Cinderella, since she only has one shoe, she decides to give the other one to the baker's wife.

So now they have all of the ingredients. Yeah, love it. This kind of leads to the ending of Act One, in which they feed all of the ingredients to the cow, as white as milk, in order to produce the substance that the witch can drink, and then the spell is broken. Everything works except for Rapunzel's hair, because the witch has touched the hair, and one of the rules is that she couldn't have touched the ingredients.

[56:40] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, she didn't explicitly say that in her rap. She was talking about cabbages and peppers. She could have said, parsley, peppers, don't touch the ingredients.

[56:47] Sara Kapner: Yeah, hindsight is 2020.

[56:53] Jeff Parsons: Hindsight is 2020. Maybe we can change that, because 2020 is not such a great year.

[56:56] Sara Kapner: Yeah, thank you.

[56:57] Jeff Parsons: Hindsight is 2019.

[57:00] Sara Kapner: Hindsight is pre-2016. Let's just say it. Maybe hindsight is 1987, and we just don't know it. Like, truly, the year of Into the Woods should be the basis of everything.

[57:11] Jeff Parsons: Exactly. Our neutral.

[57:13] Sara Kapner: Our basis, yeah. Oh, there's been this mysterious man coming in and out of the story as well. Who arguably would be the one thing I would... I know he's major in "No More," but he's the one thing I would cut out of the storyline. I guess you kind of need it, but...

[57:30] Jeff Parsons: For the theme of, like I said, the fact that parents don't really go away in this show, whether it's because of the choices they make, or literally their physical presence, he kind of plays an important part, because he turns out to be the baker's father.

[57:52] Sara Kapner: Right. Who has kind of been in hiding, maybe haunted by the guilt of his actions in creating this curse that has left his son without a child. But because of that, he's also very invested in making sure that they get the ingredients to break the curse.

[58:10] Jeff Parsons: Right. So when they realize that Rapunzel's hair is not the right ingredient, he suggests that maybe they pull the hair from...

[58:17] Sara Kapner: The corn!

[58:18] Jeff Parsons: From corn. Once again, vegetables save the day.

[58:22] Sara Kapner: And they feed the silky hair of the corn to the cow, which works. Milky White starts giving some milk, the witch drinks it, the spell is broken, and the witch turns into a gorgeous Bernadette Peters.

[58:37] Jeff Parsons: Yes!

[58:38] Sara Kapner: Uh, every witch should be so lucky.

[58:40] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, truly. Vanessa Williams ain't so bad.

[58:44] Sara Kapner: Oh my gosh. Stunning.

[58:47] Jeff Parsons: Stunning. Model.

[58:49] Sara Kapner: Ridiculous. Then we go back to Cinderella, who now has the prince visiting her house to see if any of the occupants can wear the slipper. Now, this is actually one of my favorite parts of the show, where the prince gives the shoe to the stepsisters to try on. Neither of their feet really work, and so the stepmother literally maims them and cuts off either their toe or their heel in order to fit the shoe in.

[59:15] Jeff Parsons: Go back to the Brothers Grimm!

[59:16] Sara Kapner: Yes! But like, how profound? How many times do we as a society tell women to change how they look or change their bodies in order to be either lovable or to land themselves a man? Because if they do, that'll take care of all of their problems. Like, who cares if you can't walk? At least you'll be married.

[59:37] Jeff Parsons: Right. It's the parents theme in this show, again, is like so multi-layered. There's so many different kinds of parents in this show. There's like, you know, wanting a child. There's having a child, not wanting to lose a child. It's wanting your child to be perfect. It's not having your child be perfect enough. It's, you know, losing your child. It's just so layered.

[1:00:00] Sara Kapner: For sure. Wow. Cinderella tries on the bloody slipper and it fits perfectly. And so Cinderella has found her prince and they're going to be happy. Meanwhile, Cinderella's bird friends, because Cinderella talks to birds, poke out the eyes of the stepsisters. So now they're blind and they can't walk, which is unfortunate for them, which is unfortunate, but also kind of a hilarious piece of karma for the audience to enjoy.

[1:00:29] Jeff Parsons: And the whole company sings this great, very optimistic, ever after song, which-

[1:00:36] Sara Kapner: Hardest lyrics to learn in all of musical theater.

[1:00:38] Jeff Parsons: Oh my gosh.

[1:00:39] Sara Kapner: Oh my God. It's such a hard song. We went over those lyrics so many times, even harder than "Your Fault."

[1:00:45] Jeff Parsons: Oh, for sure. Because it's lists. It's just lists, right?

[1:00:49] Sara Kapner: Yeah. To have to get, wait, to, I don't remember it. To have to get to something, to save, to kill, to keep, to go to the festival. Oh, it's so hard.

[1:01:00] Jeff Parsons: Because it's so almost mind numbing, I think is almost the point, right? Where it's like, we all have our own reasons for doing things. We all have our wants and desires. And if this just sounds like a jumble of words, it's because it actually kind of is.

[1:01:16] Sara Kapner: It is. Yeah.

[1:01:17] Jeff Parsons: It doesn't matter. What matters is how one of those things is related to one person's journey and story. And this is where the fairy tales usually end. And so we go to intermission and then come back and realize that there's an entire other musical.

[1:01:35] Sara Kapner: Buckle up, baby.

[1:01:37] Jeff Parsons: Okay. So going back to your whole Sweeney Todd thing about how it was done in the pie shop, what would you be able to buy at the Into the Woods farmer's market during intermission?

[1:01:49] Sara Kapner: Wow. Parsley, peppers, cabbages, and watercress, and fiddle ferns, and lettuce.

[1:01:54] Jeff Parsons: That would make for a gassy second act, I'm just saying.

[1:01:56] Sara Kapner: And bread, and bread. I guess I would say some sort of gorgeous vegetable sandwich you could have. Plus some baked goods, anything that the baker would sell in their shop. I mean, honestly, this would make a lot of money.

[1:02:09] Jeff Parsons: Yes. You could charge $8 for a vegetable slider on homemade bread.

[1:02:15] Sara Kapner: Yeah, this would be a really gorgeous farm-to-table restaurant called Into the Woods.

[1:02:21] Jeff Parsons: This might be the next incarnation of dinner theater.

[1:02:24] Sara Kapner: How has nobody done this yet? I'm not kidding.

[1:02:26] Jeff Parsons: It's ours.

[1:02:27] Sara Kapner: Let's make our own dinner theater.

[1:02:30] Jeff Parsons: Into the Woods dinner theater.

[1:02:32] Sara Kapner: Yeah. Sarah and Jeff's Into the Woods dinner theater.

[1:02:34] Jeff Parsons: I'm so down.

[1:02:35] Sara Kapner: I love dinner theater. That was where I got my equity card, at Westchester Broadway Dinner Theater.

[1:02:40] Jeff Parsons: It's really fun.

[1:02:41] Sara Kapner: It was great. They have great chicken marsala there.

[1:02:44] Jeff Parsons: That sounds delicious.

[1:02:45] Sara Kapner: Really excellent chicken marsala. And what's the other one, RJ?

[1:02:48] Jeff Parsons: Tomato and mozzarella, the French depresse salad.

[1:02:51] Sara Kapner: No, not the French depresse salad. The dessert. What's the dessert? The peach melba. Sorry, peach melba.

[1:02:57] Jeff Parsons: Peach melba? I don't even know what that is.

[1:02:59] Sara Kapner: It's vanilla ice cream with those canned peaches and then a wafer cookie. It's one of the most nostalgic tastes.

[1:03:08] Jeff Parsons: That's absolutely nostalgia right there.

[1:03:12] Sara Kapner: So can we please have peach melba, even though it has nothing to do with Into the Woods?

[1:03:16] Jeff Parsons: Oh, for sure. For sure. I'm sure there are peach trees.

[1:03:19] Sara Kapner: Oh yeah. I think in the Rocky Mountains where I'm from, we would call that peach cobbler. We would go more of a cobbler route.

[1:03:27] Jeff Parsons: There's no gorgeous crunchy topping, but I think that the vanilla wafer kind of takes that spot.

[1:03:35] Sara Kapner: For sure.

[1:03:36] Jeff Parsons: I would consider peach melba a deconstructed peach cobbler, sure.

[1:03:40] Sara Kapner: Sure.

[1:03:41] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:03:41] Sara Kapner: I'm down.

[1:03:42] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, we're set. We just need the funding. Anyone?

[1:03:45] Sara Kapner: Anyone? Oh, you're too busy buying toilet paper? Got it. All right.

[1:03:49] Jeff Parsons: Cool, cool, cool. The second act starts with this song where we realize that happy ever after doesn't really last very long, right?

[1:03:55] Sara Kapner: It's one of the things that I actually had a problem with with the film version of Into the Woods, which I'm actually not all that interested in talking about.

[1:04:06] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, I don't even remember what they did.

[1:04:08] Sara Kapner: Because of the lack of intermission in the movie, the action just has to continue and the discontent happens immediately.

[1:04:15] Jeff Parsons: Oh, interesting. I don't remember that. I don't remember that at all.

[1:04:19] Sara Kapner: And that's what I love about this intermission, is that you know that time has passed and that things aren't as happy as they had once wished.

[1:04:30] Jeff Parsons: Right.

[1:04:30] Sara Kapner: Cinderella is kind of bored with her life in the palace, and Jack keeps dreaming of his time in Beanstalk Land.

[1:04:40] Jeff Parsons: The baker's wife and the-

[1:04:41] Sara Kapner: They have their baby.

[1:04:42] Jeff Parsons: They have their baby, which is amazing, but now they don't have any room because they're trying to run a business and raise a child all in this tiny space.

[1:04:50] Sara Kapner: Wow, that's very real right now.

[1:04:53] Jeff Parsons: For sure.

[1:04:54] Sara Kapner: Then you have the witch who got her beauty back and she's, you know, ecstatic about that.

[1:05:00] Sara Kapner: Lost her powers.

[1:05:01] Jeff Parsons: Has lost her powers.

[1:05:03] Sara Kapner: Oh, what would you choose? Beauty or powers?

[1:05:04] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:05:07] Sara Kapner: I mean, I don't know. Do I look like Vanessa Williams?

[1:05:12] Jeff Parsons: Well, I mean, I can't even remember what her witch looked like. I only remember her beauty.

[1:05:18] Sara Kapner: And I remember Bernadette's witch so vividly.

[1:05:22] Jeff Parsons: For sure.

[1:05:23] Sara Kapner: But...

[1:05:24] Jeff Parsons: I don't know. I guess it's what the powers are.

[1:05:27] Sara Kapner: Are the powers just that I have a staff and the, like, pyrotechnics come out of it?

[1:05:32] Jeff Parsons: I'll take the beauty.

[1:05:33] Sara Kapner: Yeah, me too.

[1:05:36] Jeff Parsons: Also, like, no one else has powers and they're just fine. So figure it out.

[1:05:39] Sara Kapner: For sure. Put on your pants just like everybody else.

[1:05:42] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:05:44] Sara Kapner: Oh, yeah. What's up with Little Red?

[1:05:46] Jeff Parsons: We discover that she, instead of wearing a red cape, is now wearing...

[1:05:50] Sara Kapner: Yeah, we discovered that in the first act in this adorable scene with Jack that her grandmother made her a new fur cape from the skins of the wolf.

[1:05:59] Jeff Parsons: But in the prologue, she comes back to get some more bread and lets them know that a great wind, quote unquote, a great wind has blown her house down and she can't find her mother.

[1:06:15] Sara Kapner: At the end of So Happy, at the end of the second act opener, there's this huge crash, like a huge earthquake sounding thing.

[1:06:22] Jeff Parsons: And yeah, and then Little Red believes it was a great wind that blew down her house.

[1:06:29] Sara Kapner: Nobody else is really believing that it's a wind.

[1:06:32] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, we all got to flee the winds now.

[1:06:34] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[1:06:35] Jeff Parsons: Go back into the woods.

[1:06:36] Sara Kapner: And Cinderella realizes, okay, I need to go find out what's going on.

[1:06:41] Jeff Parsons: Make sure that my mother's grave is okay.

[1:06:44] Sara Kapner: Jack's like, you know, sense of adventure, let's go.

[1:06:47] Jeff Parsons: The witch's garden is completely destroyed by what looks like a huge footprint.

[1:06:54] Sara Kapner: And so the baker and his wife are like, we got to get our family out of here.

[1:06:59] Jeff Parsons: That footprint could have been us.

[1:07:02] Sara Kapner: So everybody heads back into the woods to figure out what on earth is happening.

[1:07:08] Jeff Parsons: And what has happened is that the giant has come down from Beanstalk Land, hunting Jack because Jack was the one who slayed her husband.

[1:07:15] Sara Kapner: Right?

[1:07:19] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:07:21] Sara Kapner: The giant is a woman!

[1:07:23] Jeff Parsons: One of my other favorite lines.

[1:07:26] Sara Kapner: Since the giant is kind of walking all over this kingdom, it's driving everybody into chaos.

[1:07:32] Jeff Parsons: And oh my gosh, you guys, this giant is coronavirus.

[1:07:38] Sara Kapner: Oh my god, for real.

[1:07:40] Jeff Parsons: And kind of sending everybody into...

[1:07:43] Sara Kapner: Panic, destruction.

[1:07:44] Jeff Parsons: Into panic and into like, not recognizing their lives anymore.

[1:07:48] Sara Kapner: And needing to know what to do next.

[1:07:51] Jeff Parsons: So the royal family is fleeing because the castle has been destroyed.

[1:07:59] Sara Kapner: And they don't have any, you know, desire to fight the giant.

[1:08:03] Jeff Parsons: And so now...

[1:08:03] Sara Kapner: Wow, that's so real.

[1:08:05] Jeff Parsons: Right?

[1:08:05] Sara Kapner: All the people leaving New York.

[1:08:07] Jeff Parsons: Everybody has their own reactions to either, you know, believing that the giant even exists, or how you fight it.

[1:08:11] Sara Kapner: Maybe we should just go in hiding. Like, it's...

[1:08:18] Jeff Parsons: You guys...

[1:08:19] Sara Kapner: It is coronavirus.

[1:08:20] Jeff Parsons: It's kind of crazy.

[1:08:22] Sara Kapner: And what our central characters decide to do is fight the giant.

[1:08:27] Jeff Parsons: Because what the giant wants is Jack.

[1:08:30] Sara Kapner: And they're not willing to give Jack up.

[1:08:35] Jeff Parsons: And the witch, meanwhile, is like, just give him Jack.

[1:08:40] Sara Kapner: And they're like, no, we can't sacrifice him.

[1:08:42] Jeff Parsons: We can't sacrifice that life.

[1:08:45] Sara Kapner: And what I love is that she turns to Little Red and is like, oh, really? That fur cape?

[1:08:50] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:08:51] Sara Kapner: Ask a wolf's mother.

[1:08:52] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:08:53] Sara Kapner: It doesn't seem like you were really worried about killing things when you had that cape made for you.

[1:09:00] Jeff Parsons: Self-defense.

[1:09:02] Sara Kapner: Right?

[1:09:03] Jeff Parsons: But this is one of the really complex things that I think the show depicts so well.

[1:09:09] Sara Kapner: Is that there are two sides to everything.

[1:09:12] Jeff Parsons: Even when you believe that there's a clear right side or wrong side.

[1:09:16] Sara Kapner: The morals are still complex.

[1:09:19] Jeff Parsons: I think about when, like, Zero Dark Thirty happened.

[1:09:22] Sara Kapner: And Osama bin Laden was killed.

[1:09:24] Jeff Parsons: And I remember there were, like, celebrations and parties.

[1:09:29] Sara Kapner: And I know that it was because he, for many people, represented this, like, constant state of anxiety and fear and terrorism.

[1:09:38] Jeff Parsons: Celebrating someone's death feels so bad.

[1:09:42] Sara Kapner: So wrong.

[1:09:43] Jeff Parsons: Right?

[1:09:43] Sara Kapner: And I was like, I know that this is like a victory, but it feels to me like a tragedy that we had to kill one of our own.

[1:09:53] Jeff Parsons: Because we are, I do believe, like, we're all connected as a human family.

[1:09:58] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[1:09:58] Jeff Parsons: That we had to kill one of our own in order to, like, make something positive happen.

[1:10:03] Sara Kapner: That there's nothing.

[1:10:04] Jeff Parsons: Something that is very prevalent in this show that we haven't really discussed yet is greed.

[1:10:10] Sara Kapner: And how it's, like, a major, major overarching theme in stealing from other people in order to get what you want.

[1:10:14] Jeff Parsons: Stealing from other people to barter and keeping people locked up.

[1:10:23] Sara Kapner: Like, every character in this musical has major, major greed.

[1:10:31] Jeff Parsons: Well, just that, like, that fine line between wanting something.

[1:10:35] Sara Kapner: Like, there is something innately beautiful about reaching for the stars.

[1:10:41] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:10:41] Sara Kapner: I mean, certainly that's what our careers are based on.

[1:10:44] Jeff Parsons: Right.

[1:10:45] Sara Kapner: Is following your dreams.

[1:10:48] Jeff Parsons: And where does that cross into greed?

[1:10:51] Sara Kapner: And when does this quote unquote greater good end up being more of a greater bad?

[1:10:59] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:11:00] Sara Kapner: Not only a detriment to society, but to your own soul.

[1:11:03] Jeff Parsons: What are you sacrificing in yourself to get what you think you want?

[1:11:08] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[1:11:09] Jeff Parsons: What else are we missing?

[1:11:11] Sara Kapner: There are some things that I'm skipping, but...

[1:11:13] Jeff Parsons: I have down lament when one of my favorite lyrics in the show, children can only grow from something you love to something you lose.

[1:11:24] Sara Kapner: Which is like, oh, punch in the gut.

[1:11:27] Jeff Parsons: The harsh reality of a parent that the best case scenario of having a child is that they will leave you.

[1:11:31] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[1:11:34] Jeff Parsons: So, so deep.

[1:11:37] Sara Kapner: But so, Rapunzel gets squished by the giant in, like, what is, I think, the first death of one of our characters.

[1:11:44] Jeff Parsons: Main characters.

[1:11:48] Sara Kapner: In the show.

[1:11:48] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:11:49] Sara Kapner: Which is really hard to watch.

[1:11:52] Jeff Parsons: It should be said that Rapunzel has had definite psychological consequences for being trapped in a tower.

[1:11:58] Sara Kapner: And so she's prone to fits of crying and depression.

[1:12:00] Jeff Parsons: And it's caused her prince to, you know, once again, throw himself into the self-woes of agony and look for other women to conquer.

[1:12:12] Sara Kapner: And, and so she's hysterical, which I think has to play on the witch's guilt again, you know, because not only is not only, not only was she right, not only was she right, because I think that all parents want to do is protect their children from pain.

[1:12:30] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, right.

[1:12:32] Sara Kapner: But you can't because pain is inevitable.

[1:12:34] Jeff Parsons: But what you can, I think, do is teach children not to suffer.

[1:12:38] Sara Kapner: Because children will listen.

[1:12:40] Jeff Parsons: They do.

[1:12:40] Sara Kapner: They do.

[1:12:41] Jeff Parsons: And what, unfortunately, what Rapunzel got from the witch is that the world is cold and cruel.

[1:12:48] Sara Kapner: And so then when she realizes it is, she's inconsolable.

[1:12:53] Jeff Parsons: And in kind of running around in those fits of depression, she ends up getting smushed by the giant.

[1:13:01] Sara Kapner: Yeah, so sad.

[1:13:03] Jeff Parsons: And then, but then we move into speaking of looking to conquer other women, we run into like, almost the greatest deception of the show, which like, screws me up a little bit.

[1:13:14] Sara Kapner: When the baker's wife cheats on the baker with the prince just before she dies.

[1:13:25] Jeff Parsons: It's rough.

[1:13:26] Sara Kapner: It's so intense.

[1:13:28] Jeff Parsons: We all love this character so much.

[1:13:30] Sara Kapner: And to see her make these choices is so painful for people that they're like, I, we can't do this.

[1:13:38] Jeff Parsons: Well, but that's part of the lessons of all of this, too.

[1:13:41] Sara Kapner: You know, like, it's not, they can't wrap this up in a perfect little bow because people are flawed.

[1:13:47] Jeff Parsons: People make mistakes.

[1:13:48] Sara Kapner: Fathers, mothers, everybody makes mistakes.

[1:13:50] Jeff Parsons: Exactly.

[1:13:52] Sara Kapner: Her mistake comes while going back into the woods to, I think, find the giant.

[1:13:56] Jeff Parsons: Is that right?

[1:13:58] Sara Kapner: Is that what she's kind of looking for?

[1:14:00] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:14:01] Sara Kapner: And she is very set on how, you know, counting 100 paces so that she doesn't go any further than that.

[1:14:09] Jeff Parsons: And then she meets the prince.

[1:14:10] Sara Kapner: And we know that she's kind of had this fantasy of living regal princess life.

[1:14:15] Jeff Parsons: And so then when the prince kind of comes on to her, she goes with it.

[1:14:24] Sara Kapner: She caves.

[1:14:25] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:14:26] Sara Kapner: And then she sings one of the best songs ever written for the American musical theater moments in the woods.

[1:14:30] Jeff Parsons: It's so good.

[1:14:34] Sara Kapner: It sounds so trite.

[1:14:35] Jeff Parsons: I think Rob McClure, who played our baker, said in an interview somewhere, or maybe like we were chatting about it. I can't remember when he said this, but the lyric, must it all be either less or more, either plain or grand?

[1:14:49] Sara Kapner: Is it always or is it never?

[1:14:51] Jeff Parsons: And that's what woods are for for those moments in the woods.

[1:14:57] Sara Kapner: When he says that's what woods are for is a play on the word woods because the word w-o-u-l-d is what woods are for.

[1:15:08] Jeff Parsons: It's unreal, actually.

[1:15:11] Sara Kapner: Dang, I didn't even think about that.

[1:15:13] Jeff Parsons: I know, I know.

[1:15:13] Sara Kapner: Just blew your mind.

[1:15:15] Jeff Parsons: Thanks, Rob McClure.

[1:15:16] Sara Kapner: Jeez Louise, that's cool.

[1:15:18] Jeff Parsons: This is another moment where as I grew older, this song has become more important to me.

[1:15:24] Sara Kapner: Looking at where my faults are, where I've stumbled, where I've grown.

[1:15:30] Jeff Parsons: You're like, well, that's what the woods are for.

[1:15:32] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[1:15:33] Jeff Parsons: And then as soon as she kind of has this epiphany about life and her experience, she's killed by the giant.

[1:15:40] Sara Kapner: She's killed by coronavirus.

[1:15:41] Jeff Parsons: Sorry, that wasn't funny, but like, kind of, you know.

[1:15:44] Sara Kapner: Yeah, but the circumstances in which her little society is, you know.

[1:15:49] Jeff Parsons: Crumbling.

[1:15:50] Sara Kapner: Crumbling, yeah.

[1:15:51] Jeff Parsons: It is no respecter of persons and it takes her out as well.

[1:15:55] Sara Kapner: So now the baker finds out that his wife has been killed.

[1:15:59] Jeff Parsons: The giant's killed her, yeah.

[1:16:01] Sara Kapner: The witch, you know, has lost Rapunzel and this sends everybody into this.

[1:16:06] Jeff Parsons: Blame game.

[1:16:07] Sara Kapner: Because that's what we do, right?

[1:16:08] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[1:16:09] Sara Kapner: We want to feel something other than grief.

[1:16:12] Jeff Parsons: And so what's better is to place the blame on someone.

[1:16:17] Sara Kapner: Which is exactly what's going on right now in our society, too.

[1:16:20] Jeff Parsons: Of like, the who didn't give us enough time and the president didn't do this.

[1:16:24] Sara Kapner: And I mean, everybody's looking for an answer.

[1:16:26] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, it's this amazing patter song about whose fault it is.

[1:16:30] Sara Kapner: And it's both hilarious and very strategic and effective.

[1:16:37] Jeff Parsons: That gives way to Last Midnight, which talk about like 11 o'clock number.

[1:16:43] Sara Kapner: So Heather Headley did a very, very jazzy version of Last Midnight.

[1:16:50] Jeff Parsons: And it was a sight to behold, I will tell you.

[1:16:54] Sara Kapner: That's cool.

[1:16:55] Jeff Parsons: Really unique and different and really cool to witness.

[1:16:59] Sara Kapner: This character just keeps getting more interesting to me because she kind of announces herself as not necessarily the moral compass because she's not interested in being nice.

[1:17:07] Jeff Parsons: She's interested in being right.

[1:17:09] Sara Kapner: And what comes out of that is kind of this cynicism that leads to her committing suicide, in my view.

[1:17:21] Jeff Parsons: Oh, she absolutely commits suicide.

[1:17:22] Sara Kapner: No doubt about it.

[1:17:23] Jeff Parsons: She has been swallowed up in her grief and says, look, we're all alone.

[1:17:28] Sara Kapner: We all die alone.

[1:17:30] Jeff Parsons: None of this matters because obviously all you guys are looking for is someone to blame.

[1:17:34] Sara Kapner: So I'm out of here.

[1:17:35] Jeff Parsons: Peace out.

[1:17:36] Sara Kapner: Yeah.

[1:17:36] Jeff Parsons: And I mean, thank God.

[1:17:38] Sara Kapner: Thank God that he wrote.

[1:17:39] Jeff Parsons: No one is alone as the antithesis to that song.

[1:17:41] Sara Kapner: Exactly.

[1:17:42] Jeff Parsons: After that song, we see the baker and his father, a.k.a. The Mysterious Man, have this wonderful scene about how we inherit curses from our families for generations.

[1:17:51] Sara Kapner: And sometimes we spend all our lives trying to undo them only to create new ones.

[1:18:01] Sara Kapner: And to not know and to not know. Yeah, even him, in so many ways, blaming his father for everything that he's gone through and then realizing that he is his father. Like, we all go through that.

[1:18:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, right. Like father, like son. Yeah. So no more is the Baker's impetus to go back to the group because his grief has kind of taken him away. And so now he has found a renewed strength to look out for his son, to make sure that he's not doing the same mistakes.

[1:18:38] Sara Kapner: Right, his father did. So now the group is back together. Yeah. At least the ones who are alive. And they have, they come up with a plan to. The plan, yeah. To defeat the giant. And the plan is to lure the giant's wife into the spot where they can put Pitch on the ground. Circa, Circa Cinderella.

[1:19:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And, and so then she'll be stuck. And if the Baker and Jack can be in a tree really close to her, then they can strike her on the head. And then the birds can poke her eyes out. And the, exactly. Actually, the moment, not to skip ahead, because I definitely want to talk about No One Is Alone, but the moment where that happens is like, the lead up to that is like, so intense. And then the moment happens really quickly. And then it's like, and you're like, okay, that's it.

[1:19:30] Sara Kapner: It's that theater thing where how much can you really do? How much can you really do in a theater?

[1:19:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. Projections. Yeah. It's kind of the same thing with South Pacific, where we've been talking about this mission that they're going to go on. And then you find out what happens by someone else listening to the radio. And you're like, oh, okay. I really, South Pacific is not my jam, if I'm being honest. I get it. There's a whole episode about it, though, on a musical theater podcast. You should listen to it. And it's actually quite good.

[1:20:02] Sara Kapner: Maybe I'll take a dive. So yes, now Jack and the Baker are in the tree waiting for the giant. Little Red and Cinderella and the Baker son, the baby are all in another location.

[1:20:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my God. Another thing is at one time, oh my gosh, when I was doing the show, I almost forgot because Little Red has the baby or a chunk there. And one time I forgot, I almost forgot to take the baby on stage with me. And it was like a huge plot point. And Elena Shadow, who plays Cinderella, we were literally just about to enter. And she was like, where's the baby? I was like, oh my God. And I like ran and I got the prop baby, like the not the real baby. It was like the spare baby because the Muni is so large that if I had left the baby in my dressing room, that's why I didn't have it. And I didn't have enough time to run back to my dressing room. So I like grabbed some frigging prop baby that was like an extra. And it was literally the scariest moment of my life.

[1:21:01] Sara Kapner: Oh my gosh. Thank goodness, though. I saved the show.

[1:21:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I Elena Shadow saved the show. I wouldn't I wouldn't have known what to do. She would have been like, where's the baby? And I would have been like, one second. And I would have like run off stage and gotten the baby and come back. She's like, where's the baby? And you're like, poison boot. Yeah. Oh, God. Wow. I forgot about that until that moment. That was so scary.

[1:21:25] Sara Kapner: That's when your heart just completely sinks into something.

[1:21:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She told me she was like, where's the baby? I was like, oh my God. Oh, but the baby made at least the prop baby made it on the prop baby made it on. There's also this baby that I forget his name. Somebody has to tell me when this podcast comes out. But there's this baby Antoine Antoine Tuan Tuan Baker. That's the baby's name, Tuan Baker. There's this baby that makes its way all around Broadway. And I think Jen Cody may have started this. Not sure. But but there's this baby, Tuan Baker, that is in like all of these Broadway productions, and it makes its way across the U.S. into all of these different productions. I think he has more Broadway credits than like people who have won the Gypsy Robe. Like he's been in like maybe 15 Broadway shows.

[1:22:13] Sara Kapner: And he was our he was our baby. And I left him in the friggin dressing room. Sorry, Tuan. My mind is blown. I did not know that. And also, I feel bad now that when I was talking about your starry cast of Into the Woods, I didn't bring him up because he may have been the biggest celebrity of everyone.

[1:22:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He really was. He really he should have. I feel like he probably does have an Instagram. If he does have an Instagram, you better believe he's getting tagged in this post. Heck, yes. OK, so now no one is alone. It happens. And it's really born out of the fact that Little Red realizes that the great wind, also known as the giant, a.k.a. the coronavirus, has killed her mom. Finally, come on, Little Red. And now what does Cinderella have to offer her? She has to offer this really beautiful song. You know, he's so poetic in the way that he describes the complexities of the song. But I think another title for this song could be You Don't Exist in a Vacuum. You know, I kind of like that because, yes, the song is about, you know, that we are not alone. But it's also this idea of there's no reason to feel alone, because if you do, then you think that your choices don't matter.

[1:23:26] Sara Kapner: And they absolutely do. Even if you like, there's almost the wrong ones, even if they're the wrong ones. Everything that we do creates ripples that affect other people. And that fact alone is a reason to never feel alone. And I think that that's so important in to to think about right now with what we're going through, that there is this kind of sense of isolation that people are coming up against. And the truth is, is that our choices, even during this time, will affect generations to come.

[1:24:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And maybe even more so than ever, man, what would we do without musical theater to teach us these things? I wouldn't know anything. That's where this whole podcast comes from is the fact that everything I've learned either from American history, or my own emotional journey comes from these stories, and the storytelling that's found within them. And I'm just so grateful to have a career that allows me to look into them as an actor or, or director or whatever. And so important, really personalize them, because it's really truly been one of the greatest gifts of my life.

[1:24:36] Sara Kapner: For real. I can't imagine. I mean, I can't imagine a world without Into the Woods. I can't imagine like not having these songs, but I really, really can't imagine Into the Woods without knowing as well.

[1:24:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Agreed. It's like the pinnacle of the of the show. So their plan does work, they defeat the giants. There is kind of it. It's so interesting, though, because you're like, well, that's just another giant who's who's to say there's not another giant and another giant and another giants and you know, whatever it might be, whatever wind might come your way.

[1:25:07] Sara Kapner: Right? Who's not to say that there's not another wave of Corona? Yeah. And, and I think that that is like the beautiful thing of the show is that every time we get to the end of a chapter, it's really only informing the next chapter. And even.

[1:25:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you're always going to go back into the woods to get what you want.

[1:25:29] Sara Kapner: Yeah. So there's something universal and continual.

[1:25:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There's so many themes in the show.

[1:25:34] Sara Kapner: It is. It's so dense. I would not want to be high and watching the show because I literally never be able to come back from it. But the cyclical nature of the show, too, is like starting where we began is like mirroring the storybook thing. But it's also like life is cyclical and birth and rebirth and death and rebirth and it's in there. Now, at the end of this whole ordeal, the baker is left with his child and is just kind of speaking out loud.

[1:26:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, shoot. Now I'm getting emotional. You got to talk. Talk about it.

[1:26:08] Sara Kapner: So. So at the end of the show, he's talking about how how is he going to raise this child without without a mother, how he he can't do it. And the baker's wife sings this beautiful moment that he has a father's intuition and and he'll know what to do if he just tells their story. Keep telling stories. And man, that's that. Keep telling stories is.

[1:26:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We have to do it, you guys. We have to keep it going.

[1:26:42] Sara Kapner: We got to keep we got to keep doing it. We got to keep telling the stories. We got to keep creating. We have to keep keep the magic alive, if you will.

[1:26:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. Because I mean, who are we without our stories?

[1:26:54] Sara Kapner: Yeah. Yeah. Who are we without owning our stories even? And then that gives way to the witch coming and singing. Children will listen, which is a beautiful way to wrap up the show.

[1:27:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And a beautiful way to get to give give the witch her leading lady status.

[1:27:11] Sara Kapner: Yeah. Closing out the show after giving the 11 o'clock number of her dreams.

[1:27:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Seriously. One of my favorite lyrics from this song is careful the tale you tell that is the spell. Words matter.

[1:27:23] Sara Kapner: Yeah. And if you're looking to cast a spell, you know, like a witch would, it really is the tales that we tell because they sink deep into our DNA and really kind of inform who we are and what we do and how we relate to one another.

[1:27:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. I think I might just have to go watch the original production again.

[1:27:48] Sara Kapner: We're so lucky to have that. And I also think and this might be kind of a controversial thing to say. I also think that having that original version on film as expertly as we do kind of ruins the show a little bit.

[1:28:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And a little bit. Yeah. I mean, the thing is, is like I think it definitely ruined it for the revival. But I don't think because regional theater and other theater is so important to like I don't I don't know if it necessarily ruins other versions, especially because people are doing such new and creative and different things with it.

[1:28:21] Sara Kapner: But I think for that Broadway version, it's everything's going to stack up against that.

[1:28:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: For sure. It really is kind of a film thing, because if somebody were to say we're going to remake The Wizard of Oz, everyone would be like, what? No. Why? You don't need to make The Wizard of Oz. And to a certain degree, because we have that quintessential version.

[1:28:41] Sara Kapner: Yeah. You're like, don't do it. Don't even touch it.

[1:28:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're like, you're like, we don't need it. Who needs it? We have it.

[1:28:45] Sara Kapner: Yeah, that's kind of real. Well, we have it. But like experiencing live theater is is is something is something completely different for sure.

[1:28:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Theater is a singular experience that and that's what makes it so amazing, right? That we can go into a theater and then you never you never get to experience it again. And that's why you have to be present. And it's live and it's yeah. And that's what's so special about it.

[1:29:09] Sara Kapner: That's what's going to bring it back with such a vengeance, because we're all going to go through all of our Netflix shows. We're going to go through all of our Hulu shows that we want to watch. And then what are we going to be left with? We need live theater.

[1:29:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You need that communal experience.

[1:29:24] Sara Kapner: Need.

[1:29:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So true. Well, thank you so much, Miss Sara, for doing this with me. I had so much fun.

[1:29:30] Sara Kapner: We talked forever.

[1:29:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And yeah, we know. Well, the show is it requires it. Let us know how to follow you.

[1:29:36] Sara Kapner: Instagram at Sarah Kapner. And that's it.

[1:29:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And then come see the band's visit when we reopen wherever, whenever and wherever that is. Check the website because they've listed what I can share and I'm not sure what that is. So.

[1:29:54] Sara Kapner: Okay.

[1:29:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Take a look at the website and hopefully we'll all be able to gather in theaters very, very soon.

[1:30:01] Sara Kapner: Huzzah. As always, if you have a recommendation for shows that you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can always email us at a musical podcast at gmail.com. Also, be sure to follow us on Instagram and Twitter at a musical podcast for more great content. And check out our new TeePublic store that has a lot of fun shirts with quotes from some of our most beloved episodes. Who knows? There may be an Into the Woods one in the works as we speak.

[1:30:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thanks again, Sarah.

[1:30:32] Sara Kapner: Of course. Thank you, Jeff.

[1:30:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What should our tagline be for this?

[1:30:35] Sara Kapner: Oh my God. Nice is different than good. Let's, let's bring it back to Little Red.

[1:30:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bye everybody.

[1:30:42] Sara Kapner: Bye.