This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Judy McLane: It was a joyful place to work. I have to say that. It was amazing. Joyful. It's not always the case.

[0:05] Judy McLane: No, it was joyful. It is a family. When I say that, if you have done MAMMA MIA! on Broadway or on the tours, like no other show I've ever done, it's a family. I'm not quite sure why that is. I think it's the nature of the show and the joy that it brings people. But it really and truly is a family.

[0:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are talking MAMMA MIA!, which was a theater request. Yes, that's right. We are sponsored. This episode is sponsored by Five Star Theatricals in Thousand Oaks, California. They are returning to live performance with an exciting production of MAMMA MIA! that will run two weeks beginning October 15th. It stars Broadway veteran Kim Huber as Donna, who we'll hear from later on in the episode. Judy, do you know Kim? I feel like she said you guys work together.

[1:10] Judy McLane: Yeah, I'm not sure what we did together, but we know each other.

[1:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Anyway, she's awesome. She said to tell you hi.

[1:18] Judy McLane: Tell her hi back for me. I'm glad she's doing it.

[1:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Before we hear from Kim, I get to introduce our amazing guest whose voice you just heard. I don't always use detailed notes to introduce our guests, PS, Judy, but I needed them for you.

[1:26] Judy McLane: Okay, good.

[1:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You guys, she is basically the Yul Brynner of MAMMA MIA!

[1:41] Judy McLane: Only if Yul Brynner had played the king and I.

[1:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There you go. Right? Okay. She starred as Donna for three and a half years and as Tanya for seven and a half years, which means she performed MAMMA MIA! over 4,000 times on Broadway. It makes her the longest running lead in MAMMA MIA! history. She also has an amazing career with lots of other things that we're going to talk about. We're so lucky to have her. Everyone, please welcome Judy McLane.

[2:07] Judy McLane: Hi there.

[2:10] Judy McLane: Hi there. Wow. Yul Brynner. Okay. I guess I better shave my head. What?

[2:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Please don't. You got that gorgeous blonde hair. Judy, I'm so grateful you're here. Thank you for taking time from your busy schedule to talk to me. So talk to me, number one, about how things are. What have you been up to since?

[2:26] Judy McLane: Well, it's been a little crazy, hasn't it? I've actually been busy during this pandemic. It's been actually kind of crazy trying to update our sound systems and doing videos for concerts and things like that. So you end up being the lighting person, the caterer, the hair and makeup. Seriously. Have we ever been more grateful for our designers?

[2:49] Judy McLane: Our sound and tech crew and everybody else. All right. I'll add to you guys. I've never been so eager to get back to them. In fact, I just did a concert on Saturday and I think I was so appreciative just being alive and not having to record myself. That was the other thing besides just performing. It was great. But my teaching, I do a lot for a lot of universities. I go out to universities and do them over Zoom right now, Purdue and Wagner College and other places. So that's been really great.

[3:15] Judy McLane: And then I had like a great surprise. I had just closed right before the pandemic. We were in tech rehearsals for a show called Romeo and Bernadette off-Broadway, a brand new show. And we had done a short run on 54th Street, but we were opening a theater on 42nd. And, you know, obviously we all closed down on the March 13th. But I ended up getting an Outer Critics Circle Award for it, which was really like in the middle of the pandemic.

[3:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Come on, Judy!

[3:40] Judy McLane: Right? In the middle of the pandemic, I thought, well, that's just really fun. It's a really fun show. It's kind of Romeo and Juliet meets the Mafia. And maybe it's almost like Moonstruck, that kind of musical. It's very fun and heartwarming. And I get to sing legit, which I don't, you know, that's my background. I come from a classical background anyway.

[4:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Do you really? I didn't know that.

[4:03] Judy McLane: I do. Yeah, I started off, and that's how I got my degree as a classical singer. And then I started belting, and that was the end of that. Everybody just said, she doesn't, she's not legit.

[4:10] Judy McLane: She's not going to do that, guys. She's just going to be a belter.

[4:12] Judy McLane: She's going to be a belter. So that's why I made my living forever. But yeah, so it's been, you know, and I bought a car, which is really cool. I get to go places.

[4:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: For a New Yorker, that's a big thing.

[4:23] Judy McLane: I've always wanted a car. So I've been traveling a lot and seeing family when I can, obviously, when we am vaccinated. And so that's been really great. And now getting to do concerts. I actually did a concert in honor of Jonathan Tunick the other night, and Sondheim was there.

[4:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh. We just got done. We did a Titanic episode recently.

[4:41] Judy McLane: Oh, wow.

[4:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, you can't talk about Titanic without Jonathan Tunick.

[4:44] Judy McLane: Those orchestrations.

[4:45] Judy McLane: What an incredible orchestrator.

[4:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. He is, you know, EGOT, and, you know, he's just the sweetest man on the planet. So it was fun because his, you know, his buddy turned up, Stephen Sondheim, and we got to, I got to sing Last Midnight for him, which was really cool.

[5:01] Judy McLane: Yeah, yeah. I had done the national tour of Into the Woods many years ago as the baker's wife. So it was kind of fun to do the witch for the first time, which is really cool.

[5:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. Oh, my gosh, how fun.

[5:08] Judy McLane: And he surprised me then, too, which is interesting. My very first show on the Kennedy Center as the baker's wife, I was going on. And after the show, they said, everybody stay on stage. And then the curtain came in, and in walked Stephen Sondheim. It was my very first show on as the baker's wife. And I went, oh, my God. So, you know, he surprised me this time, too.

[5:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, thank goodness you didn't know until after.

[5:28] Judy McLane: I know. And I didn't know he was there the other night until I went to talk to him afterward. And so that was really great. That was really like, okay, good, good, good. That's good.

[5:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's crazy. How is he? So he's out in public. He's doing well.

[5:38] Judy McLane: He's out. I think he was actually great to be out. He was actually stayed at the party longest of anybody. He and Jonathan were the last people to leave.

[5:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Shut it down.

[5:45] Judy McLane: Right. He shut down the party. So I was like, 91. Okay.

[5:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Killing it.

[5:50] Judy McLane: No, he's kicking, you know, he's still doing it. So it's great to see that.

[5:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, you obviously have an incredible career and legacy outside of MAMMA MIA!. I first heard of you because of Johnny Guitar, which was a really fun off-Broadway show. Can you talk to me, though, about how MAMMA MIA! came into your life?

[6:10] Judy McLane: Well, it's so funny. You know, it was right after Johnny Guitar. I had just kind of closed that. And people had said for a long time, well, you should do the show. You should go in for the show. And finally, I went in and they brought me in as for Donna, actually.

[6:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay.

[6:24] Judy McLane: And so I went in and, you know, got a callback and got a callback as Donna. But then at that point, they had cast Carolee in between times. So which is great.

[6:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Carolee Carmelo.

[6:32] Judy McLane: Yeah, we love her. She's like my sister. And so when I went back to the callback, they looked at me and they said, hey, can you just read for Tanya, which I hadn't prepared at all for it. Went out in the hallway with David Grinrod, the casting director from London. And we just kind of read through the scene. He read with me. I went back in and I got called the next day to do Tanya, which was just such a turnaround, you know.

[6:54] Judy McLane: And I ended up doing it for seven and a half years. And the beauty of MAMMA MIA! with that is that I still had a symphony career. They would let me go and do my symphony concerts. I used to go to Pioneer, you know, where you are right now in Utah, right? I went to Pioneer next to Normal and I was still doing MAMMA MIA! at the time. And so I kind of was able to keep another career going at the same time. It was really nutty.

[7:20] Judy McLane: And so it was just that gift that kept on giving. So what happened was I was getting ready to leave MAMMA MIA!. I was done. It was seven and a half year mark. And I said, you know, it's time. And I said, I'm ready to leave. And they said, no, we want you to really sing again for Donna. I was like, yeah, no, I'm done. I was walking with my sisters. I remember they were in town. And they said, what was that about? And I said, what were you saying no to? I said, well, you know, I don't want to go in for Donna. I don't want to sing for them again. I'm done. They're like, no, no, you have to do it. You have to do it.

[7:44] Judy McLane: Okay. So I said, okay. I went on the down low and sang for them again and ended up, you know, doing the role for three and a half, almost four years.

[8:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, yeah. And speaking of shutting down the party, like didn't you, you closed it out.

[8:08] Judy McLane: One of the most amazing nights of my life. I mean, honestly, because I had done over 11 years of MAMMA MIA!, over 4,000 shows. When I came out, you know, when Donna breaks open the door and she comes with her, you know, the drill and you're in your overalls and you open that door and the audience just didn't stop for a long time.

[8:23] Judy McLane: And it was so funny prior to the show, I said to the last show, the audience was crazy because it was filled with all MAMMA MIA! people that had done the Broadway and, you know, been involved with it.

[8:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Family.

[8:31] Judy McLane: Yeah. Totally family. And I said, went up to my Sophie, Elena Ricardo, and she's just amazing. I said, we have to do our show. We're not, we're not doing, we're not winging to the audience. We're just going to do our show. We got to just keep focused on each other. And she said, yeah, yeah. Okay, good.

[8:46] Judy McLane: And then I went over to Tanya and the Donna and I said to the both of them, I said, you know, we're going to do our show. I'm going to count on you guys to just stay focused with me. And I said, great. So I opened the door. Now I'm up there. I'm thinking, oh, I'm going to break down. I'm going to, I'm going to lose it. Right. Cause the audience is just not stopping. And I look, I thought, well, I've got to look at my girls. And I look at the Tanya and I look at the Dom, the Rosie at the time, their eyes are welling up. And I thought, oh, great. Thanks a lot. Can't depend on you at all.

[9:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[9:22] Judy McLane: So I said, well, I can't look at them. But anyway, it was really an amazing night. The audience was like raising the roof out of the theater. It was, it was so remarkable. It was really everybody that knew the show had done the show over the Broadway years. It was just, it was really a highlight of my life.

[9:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That is really amazing.

[9:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Um, okay. I have a bit of a confession to make to you at the very beginning of starting this podcast, which was like back in 2019, it feels like another lifetime ago. Totally. I, the first thing I released was a trailer that I called the overture in which I introduced like what I was trying to do with the show, which is have conversations about the cultural, emotional impact of musical theater. And, and I want to play some of that trailer for you now.

[10:00] Judy McLane: Okay.

[10:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that might mean that I were covering a musical that I don't really care for. I'm looking at you MAMMA MIA!, but it's one of the longest running shows in Broadway history. So who am I to say that people aren't connecting to it? So we'll look at it and we'll at least come up with a hypothesis as to why some people connect to the show. And you know, I didn't like it when I first saw it.

[10:33] Judy McLane: Okay. Thank you. I didn't like it when I first saw it.

[10:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It makes me feel a little hypocritical because here I am doing a show about doing an episode about MAMMA MIA! because someone requested it because I want people to go and see their production.

[10:44] Judy McLane: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I I'm busted. I'm on record as saying that I'm not a huge fan, but here's the thing. The more that I have done research and prep for this episode, the more I have come to respect the show. And I mean it. And I can't help but feel like if you didn't feel the same, you wouldn't have done literally 4,000 performances of it.

[11:07] Judy McLane: But I'm going to be honest with you. I think for me doing the show is more is actually better than when I saw it. I did. I didn't like the show. That's like how I was with cats. I didn't like cats until I did it. And then I was like, this is really fun. But you can't deny that it affects people. And there's something that it does to people. And that's what it serves. Right? There's something that the regular Joe.

[11:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, all of us theater people are going to say, oh, it doesn't this.

[11:35] Judy McLane: But as a jukebox musical, some of the ones that followed really weren't as great.

[11:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, everybody has tried to do what MAMMA MIA! got right. And it's actually proven to be much more difficult.

[11:46] Judy McLane: Yeah. And these, these, these, they did it. They did it right. They did a lot of things that I'll talk about that. But I think they did a lot of things that were right about it. So yeah, no, I did. I hated the show when I first saw it. I did. I did go. But I think that's something valid to talk about. And at the end of the day, I guess it really doesn't matter that I didn't care for it when I first saw it either, because it's a sensation.

[12:13] Judy McLane: And you have to know, when you do the show, if you ever do the show, you will change your tune drastically.

[12:18] Judy McLane: Oh, and you'll catch on to what other people are getting from it. It's kind of weird.

[12:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But I know. Are you kidding me? That's why I mean, that's why it's really important for me to know that I have another career prior that I had a major career besides MAMMA MIA!, right?

[12:33] Judy McLane: That's all people don't want. And that's sometimes hard for me, because I've done Evita, La Mancha. I mean, I just did Masterclass. I've done Wit. I've done major, major women's roles. You know, I just did Sunset. You know, it's just so frustrating to me sometimes that it's like, well, MAMMA MIA!, MAMMA MIA!.

[13:23] Judy McLane: ABBA is the co-founder and co-producer of MAMMA MIA!, which is a non-English speaking music group of all time. The name ABBA is an acronym for the first names of the members of the group, and help me if I get this pronunciation wrong, Agnetha Falzkog, Bjorn Ulvaeus, Benny Anderson, and Anne-Friede Lingstad.

[14:25] Judy McLane: ABBA first gained success by winning Eurovision, which is a singing competition in Europe that I think most Americans think is just a Will Ferrell movie. No, it's real. And ABBA won it in 1974. And up until that point, Benny and Bjorn had been working together as almost like a Simon and Garfunkel act, right? And they had okay success, but then they added these two women, these women with those voices and their energy. I mean, I've been watching a lot of old music videos of theirs.

[15:17] Judy McLane: Oh, have you? Yeah, like in prep for this, they kept coming up. And I just went from one to the other because I hadn't seen any of them. And these ladies are so, I don't want to say serious, but they are so invested in what they're invested. But once these women join the guys, I don't know what it was that inspired them. But you really can't hear or listen to any of their songs without being emotionally moved in some way. It's such a full sound. It's very orchestral, but incredibly catchy. They use their voices in a way that just kind of, I don't know, it can give you chills and also make you giggle at the same time, you know? And they can ride a hook.

[16:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, can they ride a hook? You are right, Judy McLane. Now the band breaks up in 1982 because they were all married to each other. And those marriages eventually broke apart and they decided they needed to go separate ways. But like you said, Benny and Bjorn kept working together and they almost immediately turned their sights to musical theater. And then that's how Chess was born. Now we've already done an episode on Chess and I highly recommend our listeners go back and listen to it if they haven't already. It was a huge hit in the UK and a flop on Broadway.

[16:40] Judy McLane: Oh, please don't say it like that. The F word is not a bad word.

[16:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, it was really a sad and unfortunate thing what happened. I mean, it was a really tough year. Into the Woods was that year, Phantom.

[16:49] Judy McLane: And that cast recording is dynamite.

[16:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it didn't get nominated though. It did not even get nominated for a record, for cast recording, for musical, best musical. And that was, it was, it was really the Times and New York Times of Frank Rich and he raked us over the coals and that was really unfortunate. I think part of it was the set was not the same and the concept was they took too much politics in it. That's the show that everybody wants to try to get right, you know?

[17:17] Judy McLane: Oh, that's, you're exactly right. Because you listen to that original concept album and it's so kind of like the ABBA stuff, so orchestral, so, but then there's this added depth that they as composers really started bringing to musical theater and it actually, with Tim Rice, exactly, who's, you know, not so shabby in terms of his musical theater career. But this is when I honestly start feeling a little bad for Benny and Bjorn because they were really trying to create something super ambitious and meaningful for musical theater, you know, with like their score for Chess and then also later with a show called Christina, which I also love. But it wasn't until Mamma Mia, which just uses all the songs they didn't write for musicals that they finally had a hit on Broadway.

I feel like that is some like weird karma, exactly. And I think because of that, they were, at least from what I understand, they were a little nervous to create Mamma Mia, right? Because these songs were not meant to be in a musical, so they had to be convinced.

[18:21] Judy McLane: Well, it was Judy Kramer who did the convincing, the producer Judy Kramer, which is really cool. Judy Kramer with this show, you know, she's a woman, she's got a woman director, she's got a woman writer, book writer, and she herself with the producer is, you know, when she was at a meeting with them, supposedly, the last dinner to convince them and she was going to max out her credit card, she was buying them dinner and she said, if they order one more bottle of wine, I was going to max it all out. She spent every last penny. She knew Tim Rice and that was her connection to them. So and she convinced them to do it and you know, they agreed and boy, she became like one of the richest people, you know, in England and probably around the world now at this point.

[19:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She paid off those credit cards and then some.

[19:01] Judy McLane: Yeah, right. And a great lady to boot. Like one of the best producers I've ever worked for.

[19:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Really?

[19:08] Judy McLane: Yes.

[19:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's beautiful. I'm just so obsessed that this story that features three strong women who like call themselves the Dynamos also features a creative team that is their own Dynamos.

[19:19] Judy McLane: Right. I mean, Judy is a Tanya for sure. She calls herself that. She used to call, I used to be, she was when I first started, she was Tanya one, I was Tanya two.

[19:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's funny.

[19:27] Judy McLane: She's definitely a Tanya for sure. Yeah.

[19:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, how funny.

[19:30] Judy McLane: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[19:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that boss lady. Then she gets the British playwright, Catherine Johnson to write the script, who's number two, and then they bring on director, Phyllida Lloyd. That's how you say her name, right? Phyllida?

[19:45] Judy McLane: For all of the eye rolling that I think sometimes we can do in musical theater about Mamma Mia, Phyllida Lloyd is a serious theatrical director.

[19:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. More straight plays she has done than really, you know, than doing musical theater. It's like she wasn't nominated for directing Mamma Mia, but she was nominated for directing Mary Stewart.

[20:03] Judy McLane: Right.

[20:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You know what I mean?

[20:05] Judy McLane: Right.

[20:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Like, it's insane, the kind of stuff that she brings to the stage.

[20:09] Judy McLane: Yeah.

[20:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which makes me think there is something here. There's something at the core of this story that is dramatically worthy of being told.

[20:15] Judy McLane: You know, and I think also, you know, theater does a lot of things. It's to move people and bring people to different levels of whatever kind of, you know, whether it's a serious play, whether it's, you know, going to see Chekhov or you're going to go see Mamma Mia. Everything serves its purpose, right? And there's sometimes, especially this was the first Broadway show to open after 9-11.

[20:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Can we talk about that?

[20:40] Judy McLane: Well, I wasn't there then, yes, but absolutely. I guess this is the first one.

[20:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, I just kind of want to know where were you during 9-11?

[20:46] Judy McLane: I was here in New York. I was actually in New York and yeah, it was a very serious time. You know, it was, I was actually just finished. I think I just finished doing a show. So I was in between shows at that moment.

[21:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Scary.

[21:01] Judy McLane: Yeah, it was crazy. But that opened and supposedly Meryl Streep fell in love with it because she saw her daughter smile for the first time after 9-11 when she was watching Mamma Mia.

[21:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So it really had an impact on her.

[21:13] Judy McLane: That's incredible. Holy cow. This is one of the things that I found most touching about the entire Mamma Mia evolution is that it's a big hit in London. Then 9-11 happens. Everything shuts down for 48 hours. All of Broadway shuts down. Rudy Giuliani, in a really, honestly a great decision.

[21:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know. Where's he? Where's that guy?

[21:37] Judy McLane: Right. Where's that Rudy Giuliani? He basically tells all the Broadway producers, we need to get theater up and going as soon as possible. So after only 48 hours, all of the shows are back up. And for the most part, the shows that stayed, the shows that stayed open were kept open by New Yorkers because there wasn't any tourism during New York after 9-11, right? So Tale of the Allergist Wife, the producers, these types of shows that are like quintessential New Yorker type theater are staying alive. Then Mamma Mia opens the month after. And I really do believe that Mamma Mia is the first musical that brought tourism back to Broadway, the first new musical that brought tourism back to Broadway.

[22:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Probably.

[22:23] Judy McLane: And also it was just so darn infectious that, like you said, people were smiling and dancing. I mean, we needed something happy after 9-11, right? We all did. I think that was the medicine that we all needed at that time.

[22:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What a gift.

[22:37] Judy McLane: Yeah, true.

[22:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I can't help but feel like when something, speaking of karma, is like that full of joy and a great intention like that, like no wonder it ran for freaking nine years. How long was it? Was it nine?

[22:52] Judy McLane: Oh no. Oh, it's the ninth longest running Broadway show.

[22:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[23:00] Judy McLane: And then, yeah, 14 or 15 years.

[23:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, and I was there for 11 of them. So, crazy, I know.

[23:07] Kim Huber: Hi, Kim Huber.

[23:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hello, Jeffrey Scott Parsons.

[23:10] Kim Huber: Okay, before we get into this special little section of the episode, you've got to tell me your craziest Sunset Boulevard story.

[23:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sunset Boulevard story?

[23:18] Kim Huber: I know, it has nothing to do with Mamma Mia. And I really try to stay above the drama of theater.

[23:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, I'll tell you the most amazing, there's no drama. This is the best day ever.

[23:27] Kim Huber: Okay, awesome.

[23:28] Kim Huber: And that is that Glenn Close is one of the most amazing humans on the planet. And one day she decided that she would take all the ladies of the ensemble out for just a weekend at her house.

[23:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What?

[23:41] Kim Huber: Yes, we had, she had limos lined up for us. We all got into limos, went up to upstate New York, up to her beautiful cottage of a home, just perfect little home. She had dinner ready for us. We dished about her favorite leading men. We had a slumber party. She made us popcorn on her stove. Then we all slept in different parts of the house. And then we woke up, she's making us breakfast. And then next thing we know, all these cars show up and she goes, I thought we'd have a spa day.

[24:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh.

[24:15] Kim Huber: And we had manicures and pedicures and I had a massage in her bedroom. And just use my shower. Use her shower. She's the most down to earth, generous, lovely human being, just authentic to the core. And I'll tell you, the guys in the ensemble were really mad.

[24:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: They were pissed of all that alone Glenn time.

[24:38] Kim Huber: So we ended up having a 4th of July party at her house. But it was incredible. So I mean, everything about that show was just first class. It was first class, just wonderful.

[24:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's amazing to hear. Oh my gosh. I don't think we get enough stories like that from the whole Sunset Boulevard experience. So I'm so happy to hear that.

[24:57] Kim Huber: Not really from the cast?

[24:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, no, just in like the lexicon of musical theater.

[25:02] Kim Huber: Oh, but as far as the cast goes, we are forever bonded and not through drama, but through just we were treated so beautifully. Yeah. And my other crazy story is that, so I covered Alice Ripley in the original cast, and she got really ill, but Glenn was already out that night. So they didn't let Alice be out. But right after the first scene, she was like, I'm out. And Alice back in the day, I mean, she was just cords of steel. She was never out. And so she was like, I'm out. And so all of a sudden I hear, Kim, you're down to stage management. I'm like, oh dear. I had never been on before. And now they throw me in the clothes. And Alan Campbell doesn't even know who I am.

[26:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you so much for indulging me in that. Sure, now as I said earlier, this episode is sponsored by Five Star Theatricals, which is located in Thousand Oaks, California. And they are returning to live performances at last at the beautiful and enormous Kavli Theatre with their production of Mamma Mia. I love performing at that theater. There's so much space backstage; you just feel like you can move. Mamma Mia was originally supposed to happen in 2020, but we all know how that went down. So now it's finally happening October 15th through 24th. It's just two weeks of performances, and starring as Donna in this production is Broadway veteran. You've already heard her because we just had an entire conversation and a future guest on the podcast. Don't worry, I've already made sure that's gonna happen. Everyone, please welcome Kim Huber.

[27:32] Kim Huber: Yeah.

[27:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, Kim, thanks so much for chatting with us. You guys are already in rehearsal, so I'm not gonna take a whole bunch of your time, but how's it going?

[27:41] Kim Huber: Oh, it's so much fun. I mean, yeah, you know, not only is the show wonderful, but just the whole idea of being in the rehearsal room with everybody. And we did a table read the first day, and they started singing. I know, right? But there's a couple new cast members, just to hear how it all goes together with all these folks. But we—Nicolette, who plays my daughter, started singing "Thank You for the Music," and we all just started crying. I mean, just to hear music together in a room with piano and friends, it's just magical.

[28:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's fantastic. Not to mention you've got a hunky soap star to make out with.

[28:18] Kim Huber: Oh, you know, actually the strangest thing about COVID has been some of the rehearsals where people kiss with masks on.

[28:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you and Donna have a lot in common—not, I guess, not a lot, but you both have daughters around the same age, right?

[28:47] Kim Huber: Yeah, my daughter just within one year. My daughter's 21, and Sophie is 20 in the show. So, yeah.

[28:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, and I've been aging into roles that have these maternal relationships. It's funny because it doesn't feel like aging into it feels just normal because it's like I get to tell part of the human experience of where I am right now. I'm a mom of a daughter that's that age, so it just feels natural. You know, everyone—I was younger playing older parts, like, "Oh, I have to act a certain way now." You know, I just get to be myself.

[29:20] Kim Huber: Wow.

[29:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I feel the same way about playing straight people where I'm like, "Oh, I have to be a straight guy now." And sometimes it's even scarier to be more yourself. It's kind of a duh, but as I'm older, it's like you still feel 20, except for when I'm tired.

[29:39] Kim Huber: Oh.

[29:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, you know, that's so sweet. Okay, now before we wrap up, what do you think the perfect evening of going to see Mamma Mia at Five Star Theatricals would look like?

[29:55] Kim Huber: Oh my goodness, I'm not a party planner. I'm not one of those people. However, I think it's not so much that—I think you have to go to the beach before. Like, I feel like you have to feel the sun, smell the waves. Malibu is pretty close. Feel that really great—how did that really great shower? You have to go to the beach where you just feel so fresh and so ready, and to go get some Greek food. Go, you know, have like one drink if that's your thing, and then go ready to just relax and have a really, really fun time and be ready to be a little bit moved because it's about family and friends and community and all the things we really crave right now. And I think you're—and then you'll be up on your feet at the end. It never fails.

[30:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm sold. I'm sold. Okay. I think a lot of people who go to Mamma Mia are there like girls and girlfriends and like, "Let's have a girl's night out. We'll go to Mamma Mia." And I was like, okay, for me, I would get a bunch of my musical theater friends together, and we would create Mamma Mia bingo boards, like bingo cards. And it would be like the squares would say, like, "Audience member singing along" or "Hot shirtless chorus boy," things like that. And you just kind of keep it in your program, and you like cross them off as they happen to you. And then once you get bingo, you try and work it into your experience as an audience member. So like at a joke, you're like, "Oh, bingo!" And then everybody else in your party realizes that you just got bingo on the Mamma Mia bingo board.

[31:36] Kim Huber: Yes, and you know, it really goes good with "Waterloo." I'm just saying. I'm not gonna say it's gonna happen, but if you hear anybody yell "bingo" during your run—

[31:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Changing lives here, people.

[31:56] Kim Huber: Thank you so much, Kim. I'm so excited for you guys. This sounds like such a fun time. I am on record as not being a huge fan of the show, but I'm really excited.

[32:07] Kim Huber: Oh no, you're gonna have the best time. You're gonna have the best time. Like, we are having so much fun in rehearsal, and it's such a spectacular cast, and the singing is great, the dancing, the choreography. I'm a musical theater purist, and I love me some Sondheim, and I get sticklery about my musicals, but I gotta say this one sure has won me over. It really has, so I really, I really as a piece, and then especially as this production, so please come.

[32:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you so much, and break all the legs.

[32:37] Kim Huber: All right. Thank you.

[32:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. Here's the thing, I don't think Katherine Johnson had an easy job at all.

[32:46] Kim Huber: This woman does, right?

[32:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, fair enough, good point, but she had to write a script using songs with titles like "Voulez-Vous," right? "Mamma Mia."

[33:01] Kim Huber: Right, I mean, it's not the most simple task in the entire world.

[33:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What she was able to do, I think, is really smart because, number one, whether she did it consciously or subconsciously, she recognized what generation was introduced and moved by this group and by this music in the first place and then crafted a story that is basically a mother and daughter with a huge generational divide.

[33:28] Kim Huber: Mm-hmm.

[33:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You've got Donna, who is full-on traditional women's lib, right? I'm not interested in getting married; I'm going to raise my daughter by myself, right? Very much a woman of the time when ABBA was coming. You know, so all of these people who are coming to see Mamma Mia know exactly who this woman is. And then she has given birth to this daughter who has decided to have a white wedding at the age of 20, and she's like, "What? Where did I go wrong?" And in the process of this young girl essentially looking for herself, right, in this wedding, in this marriage possibility, she has decided she wants to know who her father is because that has never been spoken of. That hasn't really been ever approached.

And so she finds—she has found her mother's diary in which there are three separate entries that allude to one of these men being her father, so she sends wedding invitations to them to come to the island. Oh, by the way, we're on a make-believe island in Greece, everybody.

[34:43] Kim Huber: Fantastic. Do you know why they picked Greece?

[34:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That seems so random, but it really gives the show its own look.

[34:51] Kim Huber: Yeah, right.

[34:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, the beauty of it, I guess, the colors.

[34:54] Kim Huber: So she invites these three men. Now, the kind of the opening number of the show is the ABBA song "Honey, Honey," in which Sophie is talking to her two friends and, you know, filling them in on this plot.

[35:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is the number one moment when I'm like, red flag, something's wrong here. She's singing "Honey, Honey" about her possible fathers, but is she singing as though she's her mom? Thinking about—you know what I mean? Like she's reading from the book, right? So she's actually saying, you know, she's reading it as her mother's reading "Honey, Honey," how—right? Okay, okay. She's kind of doing it as her mom because she's reading the exact quotes her mother said.

[35:37] Kim Huber: Okay, the first time I saw it, I was like, "This is creepy." I don't know, she's not doing it to her fathers. Okay, that makes sense. So she's playing the part of her mother to try and figure out what is happening, right?

[35:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you for—if anybody goes to see the show or when you all go to see the show, about that, you'll have—you'll be better informed than I was. Right? So after this, after "Honey, Honey," where do we go to?

[36:01] Kim Huber: We then meet Donna, right?

[36:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. Now tell me about her.

[36:05] Kim Huber: Test me now. It's been—no, no, I closed the show. I've got my—I've got great—

[36:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Don't worry.

[36:11] Kim Huber: Good. So tell me about Donna. I did my little thing, but you obviously lived in her shoes.

[36:18] Kim Huber: Oh gosh, you know, like you said earlier, you know, independent, strong, strong-willed, tough, right? But with a great heart, you know, that's like she's the—underneath, she's got the great heart, and their daughter loves her daughter extremely. That's her life, right? She's—she built this Taverna by herself and, you know, has a lost love and was hurt and probably never invested in it again, was too busy raising you, running the Taverna, and raising her daughter. So, you know, she's a single mom, you know, and so that's a kind of appeals to a lot of people, I think, because that's a tough job raising a child.

[36:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So she built this hotel.

[36:56] Kim Huber: Mm-hmm. That was actually the plans of the guy she was dumped by, supposedly dumped, right?

[37:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, right, right, right, supposedly. And so not only is she running this hotel, she's maintaining the hotel. Like when we meet her, she's got a drill and overall.

[37:15] Kim Huber: And this is when I think Katherine Johnson, the book writer, really understands how to incorporate the audience into the experience of this show. Yeah, because starting with "Money, Money, Money," the songs become a joke. Not saying that you guys don't play it—

[37:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No.

[37:30] Kim Huber: You're not playing it for a joke, but the fact that this woman is having money problems and then goes into—and you hear everybody goes crazy, right? I'm sure there's like a wink-wink all the time during—we're not playing it like that. We never played it like that, but there is a wink-wink for sure. Here's this song, how this fits in, you know? And I think that that's one of the things that the audience loves most is, "Okay, how are they going to fit this song in?" And it's up to—and I think that this is a great note to anybody out there, any theater companies, any community theaters that are doing Mamma Mia, you gotta play it seriously, or it's not funny. It's not—it won't be, yeah. Really, these are real true people that have real feelings, and you gotta play it for that, right?

[38:22] Kim Huber: Absolutely.

[38:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Coming from someone who did it 4,000 times, I can't get over this.

[38:29] Kim Huber: I know, I know. Your life is more than that, but it's kind of incredible. Talk about keeping it fresh, and now with the pandemic, no one can beat my—really can beat my records, and it's in stone. I love it.

[38:40] Judy McLane: All right, so Donna's two friends have come to help with the wedding, right? They are Tanya and Rosie. Talk to me about these two ladies. Yeah, I mean, they're so extreme, right? Rosie's the practical kind of, you know, get things done, serious, a little bit more, but you know, she's a writer. And Tanya just marries people and gets their money and goes from place to place. She's kind of a, you know, I just said that coin girl, get the coin, get the coin, and wears fabulous clothes. And you know, the three of them were a girl group back in the day. Yeah, so don't people love to watch, you know, people getting together back from high school? I don't know how you are, but I still am friends with a lot of my friends from high school.

And you know, you revert, you revert back. So I think that's the beauty of it. They bring Donna's humanity back and her humor and her fun-loving part of her that you see. So you always have to love your heroine, you know, you've got to fall in love with them somehow or sympathize with them some way, and I think those girls help her do that.

[39:38] Jeff Parsons: That's so true. I hadn't thought about that. If it wasn't for these friends, she'd be completely stressed out about her daughter getting married and even more stressed out because the three men that could be the girl's father are showing up, right? Like where do we ever get to enjoy or see Donna?

[39:54] Judy McLane: Right, exactly. And you have to have that with a character if you're gonna follow her and follow her story or Sophie's story, whoever's story you think it might be.

[40:04] Jeff Parsons: Sure. Later that day, because now we're, I mean, this is like the day before the wedding, right? Like we're there. Yeah, it's happening. The three men show up. High stakes, guys, high stakes. The writer wrote some high stakes. This isn't six months away. This is the day of, day before. We got Sam, who is the architect, right, who you mentioned before that had designed the taverna. You got Harry, who's like a British banker. He's a well-off guy, very put together, and then you got Bill, who is like Bear Grylls.

[40:45] Judy McLane: Oh, bad kind of guy. Yeah. Yeah. He's an Australian writer and adventurer, traveler. Yep, and all three of them show up. They don't know why they're there, but they assume that Donna wants them there because Sophie wrote the invitation to sound that way.

[41:05] Jeff Parsons: Invited. Yeah, they very quickly realize that that is not the case when Donna shows up and immediately breaks into "I've Been Cheated by You," another great launch into a song that I think the audience just loves.

[41:19] Judy McLane: I love the fact, and I love how they staged it to be the men are frozen and she can experience the craziness of what's happening in that moment by them freezing and not, and her allowed to, you know, be telling the audience what's going on. You really get to see what's going on underneath for her, which is really a fun moment, especially to play.

[41:41] Jeff Parsons: Okay, question for you as an actor, because I find this to be really challenging with jukebox musicals. The second verse, right? In musical theater, the material is supposed to be always constantly pushing forward, right? And that can often be found in the blueprint in the lyric, right? Or even in the arrangement of the song. And so often with pop music, it's just meant to be a groove, you know? We launch into the song, get to see some emotional life of what the character is going through. So I think that that's kind of what happens in that second verse.

[42:17] Judy McLane: Yeah, so that was my question. Like how, how as an actor do you approach a song where you're like, I got a lot of song here and a lot of lyrics that kind of just say the same thing over and again?

[42:28] Judy McLane: Yeah, they don't though. Actually, I was angry and sad when I knew it. I think you get some backstory of what's going on. So there's a little bit of exposition with that and the way she refers to specifically Sam and how he becomes the focal point for her, not just all the three dads, but you find out more. So he was the one that broke her heart. So you do find out, you get some information in that song.

[43:03] Jeff Parsons: That's cool. By the way, it's staged in the way it's done. So I do think in that song specifically, it actually does kind of forward you along to go, oh, this is the guy she was in love with. I love that. So it's all about specificity. It's just getting specific either in the staging or, yeah, everything's about being specific and how it affects you, right?

[43:08] Judy McLane: So that's great. Yeah, love it. We haven't even talked about poor Sophie's fiancé, whose name's Sky, and he's always hot, and we love him. But like, God bless them, they're getting married super young. And so they sing this great "Lay All Your Love on Me."

[43:23] Jeff Parsons: Okay, can we talk really quickly about the London cast recording?

[43:28] Judy McLane: Okay.

[43:29] Jeff Parsons: Listen, I hadn't in a long time.

[43:35] Judy McLane: Yeah, I hadn't either. And it's really weird. I just gotta say I really wish that you guys would have done a cast recording because it's got like this weird synth sort of preset filter over the entire thing, and so it doesn't really sound like a traditional cast recording at all.

[43:53] Judy McLane: Oh, yeah. Well, of course, it sounds like pop music of that period, right?

[43:58] Jeff Parsons: I just wish that I had a recording of the show of how it was really better.

[44:06] Judy McLane: Yeah, let's see. Let's jump to the night before the wedding, which is, you know, bachelorette party, bachelor party. Sophie is now kind of in the, she did not think this through. Let's just say that, right? Let's say it's a mess.

[44:22] Judy McLane: It's a big old mess. She's going to each of these men who are now putting the pieces together. Oh my gosh, am I your father? And so now they all think that they're her father, right? Donna is still kind of upset about it, but the girls are really getting her back into, like you said, into her fun, into her loving self. And so she has confidence. So, you know, what she's got going on with her. So she has these confidence all the time.

[44:48] Jeff Parsons: Exactly. And Sky is being taken to scuba dive for some pearls that have been put down in like this sunken ship area because like that's the tradition or something. It's all of this stuff happening at once. Any of these songs your favorite here at the end of the first act? We got "Voulez-Vous," "Name of the Game," "Gimme! Gimme!," "Super Trouper," so many.

[45:15] Judy McLane: No, it's not one of my favorites, I'm gonna be honest. You put on some white spandex and see how you like it.

[45:22] Jeff Parsons: Why do you look fabulous?

[45:24] Judy McLane: I have the pictures to prove that. Every single person that puts on that darn white spandex is like, really, really white spandex?

[45:35] Jeff Parsons: So yeah, no.

[45:37] Judy McLane: That's hilarious. Yeah. She can be really fun because it's actually all the women playing on stage together, right? So it's supposed to be a party, them dressing up like they used to dress up when they would sing together. And so who of these three do you think made these costumes?

[45:51] Judy McLane: Like, every single cast made up a different person.

[45:56] Jeff Parsons: Every single cast?

[45:59] Judy McLane: So I'm not thinking it was done. I'm thinking probably Tanya seems to be the one. Yeah, that was always my choice, but everybody's got different choices.

[46:07] Jeff Parsons: You know, now at the top of Act Two, yes, Sophie's having this nightmare because she realized that this mess is a mess.

[46:16] Judy McLane: All right, and it's the song "Under Attack." It's really kind of funny, right?

[46:25] Jeff Parsons: Oh, absolutely. It's a great way, kind of a cool way to do the dream, and it's really trippy because she sees Sky in the wedding dress. Yes. What do you think that's all about?

[46:35] Judy McLane: I always thought it was kind of like, wow, you know, because I've always learned that dreams are your perspective from all your different perspectives, right? You are part of you in that dream. So seeing herself as she is Sky, yeah, or she's Sky or what Sky thinks. Does she see herself as how Sky does not want the big wedding, right? Is it this thing? I go, no, it's coming, that projecting back at her. That's her kind of projection a little bit. Now we start getting into the weeds, as it were, you know? We start really hashing out all of this drama and trying to find our way out of it.

[47:13] Jeff Parsons: So, I mean, Sophie is kind of a hero for finally forcing these grown-ups to have grown-up conversations.

[47:19] Judy McLane: Yeah, she is. The big one is, of course, with Donna and Sam, which you said is, you know, certainly the sore spot in her romantic past. I love "One of Us." I think that that is beautiful. I think it's my favorite moment that I sang in the show.

[47:36] Judy McLane: I used to love singing that. It just has one of those yearning type of melodies in the show, actually.

[47:44] Jeff Parsons: Hmm, that's great. Yeah, and then it goes into "SOS," which is the hardest thing to sing for that.

[47:50] Judy McLane: That is the hardest thing to make, not the hardest thing. We're not, not fun. Not the hardest thing to sing. It is the toughest moment because there, you know, it's done where they're both in their own worlds. They're talking to you have this argument, but they're kind of both in their own worlds. It all falls on your shoulders, right?

[48:09] Jeff Parsons: Right, right, right, right. And so to make very specific about what's going on in that moment, you know, it was always a little tricky. That was a hard moment.

[48:21] Judy McLane: I can totally see that. Okay, we haven't even talked about Pepper and Eddie who are with Tanya. Yeah, who are Donna's henchmen at the bachelorette party.

[48:30] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, yeah.

[48:31] Judy McLane: It seems that at the bachelorette party that maybe something went down with Tanya and Pepper, and that could play be played so many ways. Some people say they did, sometimes you say they didn't. I always thought it was better if they actually did hook up, and now it's like the biggest mistake of her life, right? He's like penniless. What was I thinking?

[48:47] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, higher stakes, I think, and higher, better emotional life if you actually did do it, and it's like, oh no, what have I done? And then there's more reason to put him in his place by saying, "Does your mother know?" You know? Then it's a little bit more to just squish him like a little bug, you know?

[49:05] Judy McLane: But it, and yet it's a true cougar moment, I mean, oh yeah. Yeah, totally, totally is. Sky, by the way, he found the pearls, just in case anyone was wondering.

[49:15] Jeff Parsons: He found the pearls.

[49:21] Judy McLane: But he has found out what Sophie has done in terms of inviting these three guys, and he starts to question if this is the only reason that she's marrying him in the first place. Is this the only reason you wanted to get married was so that you had an excuse to figure out who your dad is?

[49:30] Jeff Parsons: She's a legitimate question.

[49:33] Judy McLane: Yeah, it is for him. I mean, I guess really it's about being the honesty up front. She wasn't really honest in front with him. I think that's more the question about the relationship. It's that you weren't really honest with me, you know? You didn't tell me what full disclosure, and we're getting married.

[49:45] Jeff Parsons: So, you know, it talks about, and you know, in so many ways, so many different types of relationships, the honesty. Donna not telling her daughter about the dads, you know, about really coming out, being truthful and honest when you're in a relationship, which I love that even when you are super empowered or that, you know, you don't need a man to complete your life, you're still learning lessons. I mean, you're still learning about how to be brave enough to have the tough conversations.

[50:12] Judy McLane: Yeah, or be brave enough to tell the truth, even if it's just to yourself. That's kind of very relatable.

[50:23] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, totally. And I think that's one of the beauties that the show does show, reveal that how do we operate in our relationships and how honest we are in them, and honesty is usually the better route to go. I know that it's fluff and all this stuff, but there is an undercurrent of that. It really does open people's eyes in a way that's fun-loving and light, but it does deal with very heartfelt issues.

[50:49] Judy McLane: One of my favorite heartfelt issues is coming up, which is when Donna helps Sophie get ready for the wedding. I just got choked up thinking about it. It's not funny. Even after all that beautiful moment, they're not really angry at each other. They fought, and she comes to ask her for help for her wedding when they're, and it's not really something Donna is not approved. She knows she doesn't approve of it, but she asks her, and they both kind of come together because what they have is a mother-daughter relationship that is so lovely and beautiful, right? It was such a beautiful moment in the show. I mean, it just really is. No mom can come and see that show or parent could come and see that show and not know what "Slipping Through My Fingers" means.

[51:59] Judy McLane: This is a powerhouse song, and from what I understand, it was the song that Judy Kramer thought, this has to be in a musical. Are you kidding me? Wow. I didn't know that. I've never heard that said. Okay. That's what I read, that she heard it and just thought, this is an 11 o'clock number. I just love the fact that it says, winner takes it all. She never says you, you know, you know, you know, we talk about it, but when you say winner takes it all, it's almost this time of saying, um, I let you take so much of my life. Oh, wow. Right? I let, I let you do that. I allowed you to do that because I pined over you. You walked away, which he thinks he did. Right. He came back. She doesn't know that part of it.

Right. But someone that lied to her, Donna lets it eat at her for years and doesn't get in another relationship because of it. It's to me, it's just a heart-wrenching moment. I think for the first time she allows herself to feel that he took everything away from me and I let you do it.

[53:05] Jeff Parsons: That's profound because it's not just shame on you. It's shame on me.

[53:10] Judy McLane: Oh, it's more shame on me. For me, it's more shame on me. Really and truly becomes so specific about that. I think there's such an angst and such an anger about what Donna has let herself go through and because of hanging on to someone that hurt you, you know, I let you take it. You, I let you be the winner. I let you do that. I'm not going to do that anymore. It's the moment she says, no more. We're not talking. You're done. I'm out. I'm out. I'm cutting you out. And he leaves. And so he leaves, right? And it tears her apart. Yeah, it's pretty profound actually. And also to think, I mean, going back to ABBA, the group, they were dealing with their own divorces within that group. And then this song gets written and recorded.

Like, can you imagine? Crazy, right? Holy cow. Now, Rosie, one of our BFs, she is with Bill, Mr. Australia. And he's upset because they all wanted to walk Sophie down the aisle, right? But in a really beautiful decision, Sophie has decided that Donna will be walking her down the aisle. And Bill feels kind of bad about it. And Rosie tries to cheer him up, maybe.

[54:23] Judy McLane: Yeah. I mean, I think there's definitely an attraction that's happening. And I think what I love so much about this the most is that it's fun and it's playful, but it's like a chance to open your eyes to something that you might not have seen before. I was right in front of you and you had no idea. Yeah. That's sweet. Like, you know, do you ever see that commercial? I think there's a commercial about an iPhone and some of these girls walking down the street in the iPhone and this gorgeous man walks by and it's like something like, you know, you're missing things, right? Oh, sure. You know, this is a moment where they're both going, Huh? Oh, wait a minute. And at first, I don't think Bill does.

It's not the typical person he would probably see himself with. So there's all these little gems that I think are really cool about life, life, little life lessons. Open your eyes. Maybe that person is okay for you. Maybe that's that. Maybe he is the one. That's so sweet. I love that. What a great perspective.

[55:12] Jeff Parsons: All right, so the wedding begins. And look, I love a musical. You know, I do. Because especially when a musical ends with everybody in a courtroom talking to a judge. Yeah, right. Or at a wedding.

[55:26] Judy McLane: Or at a chapel. Exactly. Donna acknowledges to everybody present that Sophie's father is there, but that she doesn't really know which one of them it is. And it's this beautiful moment of Sophie realizing, I guess I could do 23andMe and figure it out. But I don't really need to know. Care. Exactly. I don't need to know. I know who my mom is. And all three of these guys are willing to be a third of her father. And they end like how awesome is that? So it's once again, it's redefining what we think family is. And for me, this show appeals to mid-America, the regular kind of regular Joes. I think that's one thing I respect a lot about the show. It does make all of those things okay.

[56:23] Jeff Parsons: A gay marriage with children.

[56:30] Judy McLane: Wow, I hadn't even considered this. You're so right. It's okay. The definition of family is not the typical stereotypical what we think family is. It's a mother and a daughter. It's two men and children. It's maybe a couple that won't get married, but they're together and they've invested themselves. Or it's having three dads and not one. I think that's really the beauty of the show. And I'm going to say something that's not so great, but I think the movie copped out on that when they didn't do the gay Harry at the end. Reveal. I was upset with that because I thought our show appeals to a lot of middle America and people that don't experience stuff like that. And so I think it was really an important thing.

And I think our show makes it all acceptable. I mean, I know you're putting it on a show that everybody thinks is fluff, but I do think that's really a big part of it. Without slamming it, without doing it in a loving kind of high light way, a lot of things get dealt with.

[57:26] Jeff Parsons: This is just a little bit of exposure that maybe wasn't there before.

[57:31] Judy McLane: The last time I went and saw The Phantom of the Opera, which I hadn't been to in years, and I got a super cheap ticket in the back at the very top of the balcony. And I was sitting next to a guy who, no judgment at all, was wearing basketball shorts and flip flops and was there with, I don't know, he'd been dragged along with his family. And I'm sitting there watching the show, which has three, count them, three different opera sections. One that's like Mozart, one that's a little bit more contemporary. And I'm sitting there thinking, Andrew Lloyd Webber is a freaking genius because he got this guy to come and sit and watch essentially opera, right?

[58:16] Jeff Parsons: Right.

[58:17] Judy McLane: And in a similar way, I see what you're saying here with Mamma Mia.

[58:20] Jeff Parsons: It's exactly right.

[58:21] Judy McLane: You're getting people into the theater and experiencing something, and they honestly don't have any idea.

[58:25] Jeff Parsons: They don't know it.

[58:27] Judy McLane: And it's pretty brilliant.

[58:28] Jeff Parsons: That's right. I really think that's what, when I think of this and able to do it for that long, it's because I was very proud of that. Redefining roles, redefining how women are seen, redefining what we think of family, redefining all those things without hitting you over the head with it. It's not about that. It's not about race. It's not about anything. It's just about people going through life problems. But it also tells you a lot about relationships and honesty in relationships. And that's what really always came to the forefront for me.

[58:57] Judy McLane: That's beautiful.

[58:58] Jeff Parsons: And that you leave people with a good feeling, and they walk out the door.

[59:02] Judy McLane: Which, leave people better than when you found them.

[59:05] Jeff Parsons: That's right. Is there any better mantra?

[59:07] Judy McLane: Right. I mean, so they maybe learned something along the way, so they got it, hit their hearts, the slipping through my fingers, the relationships of losing people, what that feels like to lose someone along the way or feel like you're losing someone. But yet, you walk out the door and you party and you feel like, okay, I had fun and I had a great time. But you got a lesson along the way, whether you knew it or not.

[59:28] Jeff Parsons: Amazing.

[59:29] Judy McLane: Yeah.

[59:30] Jeff Parsons: Amazing.

[59:31] Judy McLane: Yeah. Look, I am walking away with so much respect. Truly.

[59:35] Jeff Parsons: Good. Okay, good. Now, before we end, can you talk to us about the finale, the bows and everything? Because I mean that...

[59:44] Judy McLane: I mean, exhausting.

[59:45] Jeff Parsons: The mega mix.

[59:46] Judy McLane: Can I just tell you that? Can I just tell you like five show weekends were no joke. On a rake stage were no joke. I mean, I don't know how sometimes I did it or we got through it, but the highest point of energy is at the end of the show.

[1:00:02] Jeff Parsons: Wow.

[1:00:04] Judy McLane: It's contagion, right? And then when you see audience members getting up and dancing with you, I mean, joy is contagious. Dr. Footlights, right? Everybody says, oh, I don't feel like you've heard that expression before, right?

[1:00:15] Jeff Parsons: Dr. Footlights.

[1:00:16] Judy McLane: Yeah, Dr. Footlights. I would say laughter, same with laughter.

[1:00:18] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, laughter.

[1:00:20] Judy McLane: But you hear that music and you hear people go, I remember the first time we were in the trap, we were getting on board and we got up and we had done our quick change and we were all getting ready in our poses and Carolee...

[1:00:30] Jeff Parsons: For the lift, right?

[1:00:31] Judy McLane: For the lift and Carolee and I looked at each other like, what is that noise? What's going on? It was the roar of the crowd coming on. We had no idea. We didn't, we weren't ready for it. We didn't, you know, we got on a train that was moving. So we were a replacement cast. So we got on and it was like, holy shit, what's going on? This is crazy. That can't help but lift you.

[1:00:55] Jeff Parsons: Oh, absolutely.

[1:00:56] Judy McLane: It lifts you. And it happened every single night.

[1:01:00] Jeff Parsons: Wow.

[1:01:01] Judy McLane: Every single night.

[1:01:02] Jeff Parsons: Wow.

[1:01:03] Judy McLane: So as you're coming up this trap, you're hearing these people going, I love that, you know, screaming at the top of their lungs.

[1:01:10] Jeff Parsons: Losing their minds.

[1:01:11] Judy McLane: Yeah. So, you know, it felt good to give. And I think that's why, like I said earlier, it's Mamma Mia was a family because I think we pass joy along a lot. You can't walk out and not feel good.

[1:01:24] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. That's great.

[1:01:26] Judy McLane: Yeah.

[1:01:27] Jeff Parsons: Thank you so much for doing this, Judy.

[1:01:29] Judy McLane: You're welcome.

[1:01:30] Jeff Parsons: This has been such a joy.

[1:01:31] Judy McLane: It was kind of fun revisiting it again.

[1:01:32] Jeff Parsons: You've brought a lot to me and I think a lot to everybody who's listening.

[1:01:35] Judy McLane: Oh, good. I'm glad.

[1:01:37] Jeff Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Follow us on Twitter and Instagram at amusicalpodcast for more great content. And be sure to subscribe to Patreon! Where for only one dollar a month, you'll not only support the show, but receive bonus episodes and content as a huge thank you.

[1:02:02] Judy McLane: Coming up for subscribers is a special Halloween episode of Listening Party, where we'll gab our way through the Tarrytown cast recording with its writer and composer, Adam Wachter.

[1:02:14] Jeff Parsons: It's a really fun conversation about this little show that's loosely based on The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and starred Andy Mientus, Jeremy Jordan, and Krista Rodriguez. So get super excited about that.

[1:02:26] Judy McLane: We also have a TeePublic store, so there's just so many ways to connect in this amazing podcast community.

[1:02:33] Jeff Parsons: Hey, Judy, how do we follow you and everything you're up to?

[1:02:37] Judy McLane: Well, I'm not such a plugger. I'm really bad at that. Oh, gosh, that's awful.

[1:02:41] Jeff Parsons: Oh, good.

[1:02:42] Judy McLane: But I do Instagram. It's Judy McLean Mamma Mia. It's a fan that runs it. She's usually telling people what I do more than I do. So if you want to know what I'm doing, go to Instagram and follow her.

[1:02:53] Jeff Parsons: Oh, my gosh, we'll give her a shout out, for sure.

[1:02:56] Judy McLane: But I don't run it. I don't do anything. Yeah, Olga, this girl. She lives in Russia, by the way. I mean, it's crazy, but she's like, you know, she doesn't even live here.

[1:03:04] Jeff Parsons: She's connected, man.

[1:03:05] Judy McLane: Yeah, she's connected, right? And also, I do have a website, which I have not updated for years because my domain name got stolen.

[1:03:11] Jeff Parsons: What?

[1:03:12] Judy McLane: Yeah, judymclean.com got stolen when I was doing Mamma Mia by an Uber company because it's just getting just enough hits. So it crashed and I lost everything. So I've got to redo that, but I'll get back to that.

[1:03:24] Jeff Parsons: Fantastic. Thank you again. And another special thank you to Five Star Theatricals. Check out Mamma Mia, October 15th through 24th. And to find out more information, go to their website, five, as in the number five, fivestartheatricals.com.

[1:03:40] Judy McLane: Good luck, Kim.

[1:03:42] Jeff Parsons: Break all the legs.

[1:03:44] Judy McLane: Break all the legs.

[1:03:46] Jeff Parsons: Thank you again, Judy, and everyone out there.

[1:03:49] Judy McLane: You can dance.

[1:03:51] Jeff Parsons: I don't know.

[1:03:52] Judy McLane: I don't know how to do it.

[1:03:53] Jeff Parsons: Give it.

[1:03:54] Judy McLane: Come on, Judy.

[1:03:55] Judy McLane: You are the dancing queen, young and sweet, only 17.

[1:04:00] Judy McLane: I'm dancing. I'm dancing in the aisles for you.

[1:04:02] Judy McLane: I should have warmed up.

[1:04:04] Judy McLane: Morning voice.

[1:04:06] Jeff Parsons: You're amazing.

[1:04:15] Judy McLane: You're amazing.