This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Kiki Ball-Change: Really, there are quite a number of queer themes in Man of La Mancha that obviously I don't think were the original intent, but that really digging into it and thinking about the story, I think really can relate to a queer audience as well.

[0:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's cool. Please point those out. I would love to hear your thoughts on that.

[0:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff.

[0:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Today, we are discussing the classic musical Man of La Mancha, which was a listener request from today's guest. By the way, if you're trying to get on this show, pitch me an episode about a musical written before 1970.

[0:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Anyway, I am delighted, DELIGHTED with a capital D to welcome the glam winner for Best Cabaret, not to mention the Broadway bimbo of NYC. Everyone, please welcome the incredible, incomparable, and musically talented with a big ol' batma, Kiki Ball-Change!

[1:17] Kiki Ball-Change: Yay!

[1:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, of course, Kiki is here, but if Kiki is the Don Quixote of NYC, then I'm speaking to the Alonso Quixana, also known as Gabe. Hi, Gabe.

[1:34] Gabe: Yes, hi, how are you?

[1:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: A seasoned musical theater performer, are you weaponizing your BFA in musical theater?

[1:42] Gabe: Of course I am. That was honestly the greatest gift to musical theater drag queens that that twink could have given us. So I'm very happy to weaponize my BFA every day.

[1:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fantastic. So talk to me about theater life and how that led to drag.

[2:04] Gabe: Yeah, well, I started performing when I was seven. My first show was Oliver.

[2:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I feel like it's a good entry point for a choreographer.

[2:15] Gabe: Oliver for boys and Annie for girls is like a classic, classic intro for kids. Yeah, I've been performing since I was seven. I was in a show choir for 10 years.

[2:28] Gabe: I did drama all through high school and community theater. And then when I went to college, I got my BFA and I worked.

[2:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, wait, where are you from?

[2:38] Gabe: Oh, I'm from Pensacola, Florida. If you've ever heard of Matt Gaetz, the congressman, he represents where I'm from. So that tells me anything about the surrounding area that I grew up in.

[2:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You had some community theater.

[2:54] Gabe: I did. Well, I will say Pensacola itself is kind of like a small little haven in the grand red of the Florida panhandle.

[3:03] Gabe: But, you know, it's still that it. Yeah, it's still Florida, you know, at the end of the day.

[3:08] Gabe: So and it was it wasn't the fun part. I was whenever people hear I'm from Florida, they always think I'm from like Miami or Tampa or Orlando, you know, and I always have to be the one to sadly tell them I'm not from any of the really cool places.

[3:22] Gabe: But man, that's a good Pensacola is a great like comedy button Pensacola, you know what I mean? Lots of consonants.

[3:31] Gabe: And like the airplane code is PNS. So, you know, a lot of fun with that one. Uh huh. So there was always like the penis cola and, you know, the Pepsi, whatever Pepsi Cola, whatever you want to call it. That's where I'm from.

[3:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You told me when we first started chatting that you have done Man of La Mancha a couple of times.

[3:57] Gabe: So I've done it three times. Yeah. Which is so bizarre. Like it's the same. I did I did back to back productions, different productions of Annie Get Your Gun. Like, I don't know why it happens the way that it happens, but it was a really great few years for Man of La Mancha, I guess.

[4:09] Gabe: I don't know. Everyone was doing it and I capitalized on it.

[4:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Was it all in Florida? All of these productions?

[4:20] Gabe: Oh, no. The first one was at Jean's Playhouse in Lincoln, New Hampshire. I'm not sure if it's still called Jean's Playhouse or not, because it went through a couple different names, but it was Jean's Playhouse in Lincoln, New Hampshire.

[4:29] Gabe: Then I did my second one at now I can't remember that name of the theater, but that was in Sonora, Sonora. It's been a while since I've. Yeah. Sonora, California. Oh, my gosh. Is Sierra Rep? Yes, it was Sierra Rep. That's it. That was that was a really interesting one.

[4:46] Gabe: We did it with a nine person cast. And then the third time I did it, I did it at Sacramento Theater Company.

[4:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, see, so, you know, the ins and outs of this show for sure. Very, very well.

[5:00] Gabe: Yes. My experience with Man of La Mancha is a little surreal in that I often have these memories of seeing the Brian Stokes Mitchell revival, but I never saw the Brian Stokes Mitchell revival.

[5:15] Gabe: I think it's because I saw the Brian Stokes Mitchell revival of Kiss Me Kate, and it can kind of feel similar. And so, you know, Golden Age Musicals, like how they blend together. Yeah. And also like matinee idol type star. And so I sometimes have these thoughts of like, oh, no, I've seen Man of La Mancha. And then I was like, no, I don't think I've seen Man of La Mancha.

[5:35] Gabe: But that being said, it's always in my brain like one of the classics right up there with Music Man, Fiddler on the Roof, Man of La Mancha. And if for no other reason, because of The Impossible Dream, like you cannot not hear that song. Right. Especially if you grew up with parents or grandparents who loved musical theater.

[5:56] Gabe: So yeah, that's like one of the rare songs I feel like of the 60s where like Broadway was kind of the pop music that kind of really has transcended into like mainstay like classic song. Yeah. You know, everyone kind of knows whether you know Man of La Mancha or not.

[6:12] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah. But it's interesting, though, because as I started prepping for this episode, I started looking at the different musicals that came out the same Broadway season as Man of La Mancha. I started looking into the composer, Mitch Lee, and all of a sudden I realized that Man of La Mancha is a counterculture musical.

[6:38] Gabe: It really is.

[6:39] Kiki Ball-Change: It came out in 1965. So like we're only a couple of years away from here. It's from the same Broadway season as Mame and Sweet Charity. And when you look at all three of those musicals, they have something in common, which is this lead character who is choosing to see the world differently than society wants them to look at it.

[7:04] Kiki Ball-Change: And the kind of miraculous thing about Man of La Mancha is that it managed to have that kind of counterculture hippie message while also evoking the music man, which was 10 years before and was wholly embraced by the people who maybe felt that this message wasn't part of their generation.

[7:25] Kiki Ball-Change: And like what a huge accomplishment to get multi generations all behind this message because of the way you're telling the story. Pretty impressive.

[7:36] Gabe: And I think at the time it was pretty groundbreaking for it being kind of a show within a show as well. And it ran for I think like about five or six years on Broadway. It transferred a couple of times. But like for that show to run as long as it did, I think it was over 2000 or 3000 performances in its Broadway run.

[7:58] Kiki Ball-Change: It was revived like two more times within the next decade. And then I think like once more in the 90s. And then with Brian Stokes Mitchell in the early 2000s, like it is just like a show that resonates with so many people from, you know, I sometimes I tell people I did the show three times and they're like, Oh, I'm so sorry, Man of La Mancha.

[8:19] Gabe: It's truly one of my favorite shows that I've ever done. And, you know, really, it deserves its place in the list of great musicals of especially the 60s, but really of all time because it just like its messages are so resonant with every kind of generation, you know, regardless of what decade you grew up.

[8:41] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah, I love that. I'm hoping that as we go through the show and then the characters today that we can really look at some of these things that feel I don't want to say groundbreaking, but maybe even a little edgy, because it deserves to be seen as a little more groundbreaking than I think we traditionally hold it up to be.

[9:06] Kiki Ball-Change: Let's first talk about this dude, Miguel de Cervantes, who wrote the novel, Don Quixote. We're talking, this is maybe the furthest back we've ever gone in history. We're going back to like the 1500s is when Miguel de Cervantes was alive and writing both poetry plays and novels.

[9:29] Kiki Ball-Change: And his novel, Don Quixote, which became groundbreaking because it was widely considered the first modern novel, simply because, and by the way, Spaniard, so it was written in Spanish, but it was written in modern Spanish in a time when modern language wasn't really even considered worth writing in, you know, there was how you spoke and then how you wrote.

[9:55] Kiki Ball-Change: And he was actually fusing those two together in a very real big way. Now this guy, what do you know about him? Do you know anything about him? Because he's a character in Man of La Mancha, but Man of La Mancha the musical is not his story, nor is it really the musical version of Don Quixote. It's kind of like a combination of the two.

[10:17] Gabe: Yeah, it's very different than the original novel. I took Spanish in high school for a couple of years. And one of our lessons was about Don Quixote. And we watched the, I believe there's like a movie version of it that we watched. Or honestly, no.

[10:38] Gabe: Yeah, I was gonna say maybe it was just Man of La Mancha. I don't even know if it was a movie version.

[10:43] Kiki Ball-Change: By the way, I love that I was like Man of La Mancha the movie, you know, starring Sofia Loren. Like forget Peter O'Toole. It's Sofia Loren's movie.

[10:53] Gabe: I mean, she is she is like, you know, a goddess. But so I, you know, we learned a little bit about it then. And you know, the time that it took to write the novel. And there's a second part that took about a decade later to come out with. I don't know much about him aside the fact that he was, you know, a great writer and wrote Don Quixote, but that's about it.

[11:15] Gabe: And that he lived in Spain.

[11:17] Kiki Ball-Change: Well, and here's the other thing is that all of the other details about his life are kind of unknown because he lived so freaking long ago. Like there's there's not a whole lot that can be like even to the down to his birth year. It's a it's a really, really good guess at this point.

[11:36] Kiki Ball-Change: But there are a couple of things we know the entire, I mean, all of Europe was just in constant war during this time. And so serving in some sort of military was part of your life. And we do know that he fought for Spain, then he went to Italy and fought in the war there, got injured, came back to Spain, all during this whole Ottoman Empire, Michigas, right?

[12:02] Kiki Ball-Change: And through all of that, he is also a writer. He's also a poet. And I don't know about you, but I think about like, being in a world where you were a soldier and also a drag queen. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think we can even imagine that kind of world.

[12:23] Gabe: They exist somewhere in the world right now, I'm sure.

[12:25] Kiki Ball-Change: You know where exactly like you're those two things, simply because of the world circumstances are living in your body at the same time. So it makes sense that this person who from all accounts seems like an interesting dude, comes up with this story of this guy, you know, Don Quixote, who, if you will, Don Quixote is the drag persona of this guy named Alonzo, who doesn't really have much in his life, but a dream of what life could be in terms of chivalry, in terms of goodness and making the world a better place.

[13:13] Kiki Ball-Change: And so he decides to become this knight, even though knights haven't existed for many, many, many years. He decides to become this knight and, and go around the world as though he is a knight, despite everyone around him, either judging him for it or going out of their way to help him continue his charade.

[13:26] Gabe: And I think I, while you were talking, I just had a thought that I think it is interesting that, you know, like you said, it was a time of really great chaos in Europe. And I think we see over and over again in times that like the world seems uncertain, that humans and artists kind of go to the absurd or the imaginary or the fantastical.

[13:50] Kiki Ball-Change: To kind of escape from the horrors of the world. And we see that, you know, even now where we've lived through a pandemic and we're living through kind of a lot of chaos politically. And I feel like art is kind of moving toward this, like, escapism again.

[14:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Can we please have a good time?

[14:09] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah, please. A couple of other things that we need to talk about before we actually go through the show. We got to talk about Richard Kiley, right? Who was the original Don Quixote in the musical Man of La Mancha. He is somebody that we don't really talk about because, unless we talk about Man of La Mancha, because it was his role. It was his theater role. And it was every much, he was every bit, you know, Don Quixote as Yul Brynner was considered the king in The King and I as Carol Channing was considered Dolly Levi. He was known for this role. Like you said, it ran for over 2000 performances and he became so iconically tied to it that it has been one of the difficult things about remounting it and bringing it to new audiences is like, who's going to play this role? Because it was kind of made perfectly for this one dude.

[15:08] I read originally it was supposed to be, I can't remember his name, but the person from My Fair Lady.

[15:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Rex Harrison.

[15:19] Kiki Ball-Change: Oh my gosh. There it is. Originally it was supposed to be, but he couldn't sing it, right? Yeah. It was too demanding, I think, for the role. But I think what's interesting about the composers or the composer, the lyricist, the book writer, and obviously the main actors, it is such an incredible show that you would hope maybe they had written something else that was also great or they were known for something else down the line, but it really was just Man of La Mancha and the fact that it's just stuck around so long, just that one show. If you're going to make one show that sticks around for a while and that's the only thing you do, then why not be Man of La Mancha?

[15:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Might as well.

[15:57] Kiki Ball-Change: Exactly. Well, and it's not like they didn't try. Mitch Lee wrote Home Sweet Homer, which was based on the Iliad and is a famous flop. It has some great songs, but yeah, nothing really caught on like this little show did. And I think that's the other thing that I forget is that this wasn't a huge show. It's very theatrical. It played a smaller venue. It isn't the huge production type show. And it was all one act originally. There was no intermission. We got a 90 no here, people. And it's from the 1960s. How cool is that?

[16:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So true. All in all, a really fascinating show from a really fascinating piece of history because the novel Don Quixote has been translated so many times and put into so many different things. And last night I read the original New York Times review of Man of La Mancha. And it was so interesting because it seemed very protective of the intellectual property of, don't worry, they haven't ruined Don Quixote. Like that was basically the review. So this seemed to be a story that many people regarded as one of the greatest stories ever told. And people were worried that they were going to massacre it by turning it into a musical. So see, nothing's new.

[17:26] Kiki Ball-Change: Never. I feel like that is definitely even the culture that we live in now.

[17:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. I mean, look at Devil Wears Prada.

[17:36] Kiki Ball-Change: Which I mean, to be clear, I'm sure that Devil Wears Prada is as good as Man of La Mancha.

[17:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[17:42] Kiki Ball-Change: Okay. So let's go through the show. Starting out at the top, we got to set a lot of layers here for the show. It all takes place in a prison, or is it a prison or is it like the waiting room of the prison? And every one I've done, it's always kind of like, it is a prison, but it's kind of like a communal, like the bulk of the action takes place in like the communal area. And then there are also like different rooms and caves, like offstage that you imagine are like where people go to sleep or hang out. But they're all kind of waiting to be questioned by the Spanish Inquisition for their crimes. So they're not necessarily in cells, but they are in prison.

[18:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that's a really important thing. This whole thing takes place in Spain during the Spanish Inquisition, which once again, doesn't really have anything to do with the novel Don Quixote, or even Miguel de Cervantes' life. But the Spanish Inquisition being this time when, what, basically like the Catholic Church really wanted to be in charge of everything. And so they were putting anyone on trial to make sure that they were in power.

[18:58] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah. And remember, I said that it really, yeah. And this is right off the bat, my first point about queer themes is look at where we are today with politicians and religious extremists, you know, looking for people to single out and question and, you know, vilify people who they believe are against their religion or against their politics. You know, especially the queer community right now, drag performers and trans people are constantly under attack by, you know, right wing extremists. And so I think like right off the bat, whether it's about queer people or just about, you know, you can look at McCarthyism in the 50s, or any time where like, the government is putting people who simply disagree with the government, or maybe don't align with the government's, you know, ideals of what a person should be or how they should act, and vilifying them and putting them on trial. And so I think, you know, that is part of the reason that right off the bat, you start with a scene that can relate to many different generations.

[20:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And the whole thing, while, you know, the whole show goes on, you have to remember that the show within a show, the entire time they are in this prison. And so there's always that fear. And, you know, the captain of the Inquisition comes back a couple times. There's always that fear kind of hanging in the air, even over the show, within the show.

[20:28] Kiki Ball-Change: There's always kind of that darkness looming over everything.

[20:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, you know, we never leave the jail, we never leave, you know, we put on costumes and the lights change. And, you know, we make props out of what's in the prison, but we are still in a prison. And so I think it's important to remember that that is always the scene. There's always the dread and the looming waiting. I think one of the directors that of one of the productions of Man of La Mancha I was in, that was really a big point they made was, we're all waiting to be tried, possibly killed or, you know, in prison for the rest of our lives. And so that also is why this story kind of brings everyone and why I said earlier about, you know, fantastic reality, escapism, you know, it helps them escape their circumstance.

[21:18] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah. Oh, so true.

[21:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that's right off the bat. That's right at the beginning of the show.

[21:22] Kiki Ball-Change: No, literally talk about starting off the show with high stakes. So Miguel de Cervantes is brought in to this prison area. Like you said, it's not necessarily cells. It's just kind of this

[21:36] Kiki Ball-Change: Waiting area, waiting to be interrogated. And immediately they're like, all right, what you in for? And he says that he was a tax collector and basically told on the government for not... A church.

[21:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, you're right. You're right. He told on the church for not doing taxes correctly.

[21:56] Kiki Ball-Change: Mm-hmm. Sounds familiar. And then the church was like, to jail with thee. We need to create a reason for him to be arrested instead of arresting people who actually need to be arrested. Like corruption at its most basic level. And he's there not only by himself, but with this kind of manservant, this little helper guy. Now, surrounded by men and women, all in this area, it has become the tradition for anyone who's coming into this area to be put on trial. They like hold their own trial. Because once again, you can't really depend on the laws of what brought you there in the first place. They have their own trial to decide on who's guilty and who's not. And can you tell us if you remember, because I love it so much, what they decide to charge him with?

[22:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: With being a bad poet, I believe.

[22:51] Kiki Ball-Change: Yes. Yeah. That's my favorite. And you're like, okay, you're a nice guy and kind of a bad poet. And he's like, well...

[23:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So I'll charge you for that.

[23:01] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah. And he's like, well, I might be a bad poet, but I promise my intentions are pure. And can I please make a defense? Can you hear me out? Can you hear my story? And they said, okay, fine. And he says, all right, well, in order to tell you my defense, I need to put it in to play form. I need to bring it to life as a piece of theater, because that's who I am. And they also take, when he comes in, they take immediately, they take all of his stuff from him as well.

[23:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, good point.

[23:31] Kiki Ball-Change: And they open his trunk, you know, they take everything from him.

[23:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Because he brought in a trunk.

[23:37] Kiki Ball-Change: Yes. And in that trunk is all of these props and things, but also his beloved manuscript.

[23:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, that they pull out. And right away, it's the most important thing in the trunk, which, yes, like you said, spoiler alert, ends up being...

[23:53] Kiki Ball-Change: Don Quixote.

[23:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. Once again, not facts, people. This is all just beautiful storytelling. So he begins...

[24:02] Kiki Ball-Change: By the way, all of this is done without music. We haven't even had our opening musical number yet. All this has been done, spoken dialogue, and then we finally get our first number when he unveils this character. Yeah, this character of Alonso Quixana, who has created an alter ego named Don Quixote, and he sings the incredible Man of La Mancha.

[24:25] Kiki Ball-Change: I just got bumps on my goose just thinking about it.

[24:30] ⚠ About 3 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[27:42] Kiki Ball-Change: And so I was very, very bored. I had nothing to do. I was there for several months. And my boyfriend at the time had gotten me into RuPaul's Drag Race, and was like, you know, I really think you'll like it. I had given it a chance before, and I grew up in the South, so the only drag I kind of knew of was very, like, pageant-y drag that I think was incredible, but I was like, oh, that's not for me. I'll never do that. And so I saw RuPaul's Drag Race and saw kind of the characters that could be possible for drag queens, and the skills and the talent that was outside my knowledge of what drag could be. So, you know, I had my little Ben Nye makeup kit that I had in college for my makeup class. Uh-huh.

With the bruise wheel. Yes, and I had, you know, my mom's closet at my disposal. So I literally just put on some makeup, and I already had a name, because I had, like, in college, I randomly was like, I had learned that drag names could be puns, and so I was like, what would my drag name be if I ever did drag? So I already had Kiki Ball-Change, because I wanted my theater, you know, to be a part of the character. And so, yeah, I started there, and then I performed in a club in Montgomery, Alabama for like 10 people. That was my first performance. And, you know, and then when I would bop around for, like, different shows, I would do local nights at the drag bars, the nights I wouldn't have a show or something.

And then when I moved to New York, it just kind of picked up after that, and now it's my full-time gig. But I think with Man of La Mancha, like you said, like the drag of Don Quixote, it is, he's putting on this character to become someone that will, for the prisoners, help grab their attention and tell a story. Help them understand him, too. Yeah, help them understand him, and help them experience, you know, a story that's fantastical and exciting, and putting on a costume and putting on makeup. And it's something that they haven't seen maybe ever before, something that they haven't seen in a long time, and they've been sitting in this prison, and, you know, in this destitute, desolate prison.

And so he's giving them something to be excited by. And I think in a lot of ways, that's what drag kind of does for an audience, is, you know, it is me. You know, I'm not, I'm a normal person, you know, without the makeup. But the second I put on makeup, a costume and a wig and heels, suddenly I become this like entity that when I walk into a room, everyone looks at me. And so it's kind of like the same thing with like Cervantes, because that's kind of what he's doing to the prison. But then within the story, and this is another queer theme, is like he kind of, he finally realizes kind of who he feels like he is inside. And kind of in a way comes out. I feel like it's Alonso Quijana to Don Quixote is kind of a trans kind of relation, because he kind of comes out as this new identity with this new name.

He doesn't want to be dead named as Alonso Quijana. He's now Don Quixote. And if you can't accept that, he doesn't have any time for it. You know, he doesn't even recognize the person that you're referencing as Alonso Quijana. And, you know, we see with his family, later on that they're kind of embarrassed of him and they don't want him to be this way, which can relate to queer themes in that family when people come out as gay or trans, or even a drag queen, they don't want anything to do with it. They want them to stop and put it away and stick, you know, or even politicians, they want people to just stay in the clubs and do what they do in the clubs and don't go out and be in the public eye.

And yeah, the community, you know, it's all, you know, like we said earlier about what society tells us we should be. And so, you know, right away, it is drag. He puts on drag and attracts the prisoner's attention. And then as well as in the show, he kind of comes out as this new person. Again, and we're right at the beginning of the show. So-

[31:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, absolutely. And like the amount of themes that are just dropped at our feet right at the beginning. And then it's, I love that there isn't an intermission and I don't know if it's still done that way, but we almost-

[32:00] Kiki Ball-Change: Everyone I've done has had an intermission, but I would prefer it without.

[32:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, they want to sell something.

[32:04] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah, they want to sell concessions, yes.

[32:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But I think we need the rest of the show to catch up to everything that's really dropped in our laps in these first 10 minutes, because it's so profound. And to see how it plays out is really, really exciting. Now, in addition to Miguel Cervantes beginning this story of Alonso becoming Don Quixote, Cervantes also has his little friend who came into the prison with him, who is now becoming a character in the story, Sancho.

[32:29] Kiki Ball-Change: And Sancho is his squire, right? If Don Quixote is this knight, then Sancho is his squire. And the first destination on their great journey is a windmill that Don Quixote says is a dragon.

[32:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Go ahead.

[32:54] Kiki Ball-Change: A giant, yeah.

[32:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, thank you, thank you.

[32:56] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah, no, it's okay. Yeah, they're passing by on their trip and see this windmill that, in his madness, Don Quixote sees as a giant with four arms and ready to be fought and taken care of as a knight. So yeah, he just goes for it. He sees what he sees and believes it. And jousts this windmill, despite Sancho telling him, no, sire, I think it's just a windmill. And so we're also able to laugh at it. I think that's one of the reasons why this is the first little chapter of his story is because there is a charming insanity to this character. We're like, it's ridiculous. There's no reason for him to think that this windmill is a giant, but we're kind of okay with seeing how it plays out.

[33:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, and I think it's kind of the first indication that you have that he truly doesn't see reality. Because then you get to the end with the Mule of Tears and Aldonza, and you have to buy into the fact that he doesn't see them as who they are. So kind of to do that, you have to go with something really absurd first for the audience to realize, oh, this man is not right in his mind. He sees things that aren't real. So I think, I hadn't really thought of it until just now, but whenever we do that scene, I'm always like, here comes the damn windmill. Here we go. It's just like, why is this here? Why is he doing this? We never see the windmill. There's no fight scene. There's nothing cool about.

Yeah, it's all off stage. He comes back in and he's defeated by the windmill. But now thinking about it, I'm like, oh, well, it helps the audience see that he truly is out of his mind and is not seeing reality. So to that end, I applaud the book writer. So I think it's a good premise to set up. Because then like you said, the next big section, which is kind of one of the most important, is approaching this quote unquote castle, which is actually just an inn. But at the inn are all of these muleteers, which, what is a muleteer? I don't think I even know.

[35:01] Kiki Ball-Change: They are people that take care of the mules.

[35:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, hello.

[35:05] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah. You know, they're like the farm hands. What's the base of the word, Jeff?

[35:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Great.

[35:11] Kiki Ball-Change: So yeah, exactly. And at the inn is also this prostitute slash maid. Server. Maid. Server named Aldonza.

[35:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: One of the most difficult roles to ever sing in musical theater. I mean, she is kind of earthy and also soprano and belting high. Like it's an incredibly awesome role, can we just say?

[35:40] Kiki Ball-Change: And also this is not like a hooker with a heart of gold type musical theater character. She is a full on prostitute with all of the stuff that comes with that.

[35:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[35:55] Kiki Ball-Change: It's not like Nancy from Oliver.

[35:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you.

[35:57] Kiki Ball-Change: Thank you. That's exactly the right way. She is dirty. She's had a hard life. She doesn't know her parents. Has grown up in 1500s inquisitor Spain, essentially, in the story. And has, I believe, has grown up basically at this inn and always kind of been this wench and this server and barmaid and everything. And then obviously a prostitute comes with the territory eventually. But yeah, she's had a really hard life. And so I think it really takes a lot from Don Quixote to really crack her shell because she's had to build a lot of walls up over her life. The first song she sings is called, It's All the Same. And it's this really fascinating struggle for power where she, like all of the men in the inn are kind of reaching for her and groping at her, throwing money at her feet, saying, are you ready to go around or two, Alfonso?

And she's fighting for power to say, I do what I want when I want. And also, yes, I will do everyone. It's a really complex thing that she's striving for. When you grew up without any control over your life, essentially, you find ways that you can control a situation wherever you can. So if that's her circumstances that she can't get out of, it's a constant battle of, I don't have control over my circumstances, but I can at least control who I have sex with when I have sex with them. So it's her way of being in control of the situation.

[38:36] Kiki Ball-Change: Oh, you can hear it.

[38:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So it feels so special and unique. Don Quixote, you know, addressing her as this gorgeous, pure, I mean, truly pure woman of virtue and light and love is incredibly, incredibly confronting to her. And Aldonza, of course, thinks that he's mocking her in the same way that every man has mocked her, quote unquote, virtue, right? So how does she react?

[38:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Now, in this situation is when Don Quixote, who of course, as a knight, needs a lady to do everything for. He needs his Guinevere. He needs the lady in his mind that will always fuel his chivalry and passion. When he sees her, he recognizes her as his great love Dulcinea. This gorgeous song, holy cow, this melody, all of these melodies, which are really beautiful and very Spanish in nature. Gorgeous. And it was, at the time, it was one of, sorry, just quick, I have so much information about Minerva Monta. At the time, it was one of the first orchestras to not have traditional stringed instruments, and they had a lot of Spanish guitars to help set the scene. There was not a full orchestra. It was very reduced orchestra, and the stringed instruments were only flamenco guitars.

[39:08] Kiki Ball-Change: First, she is not happy about it, and she, you know, like you said, she thinks he's mocking her and everything, and then she eventually leaves. He leaves, the innkeeper takes him out, and then all of the muleteers kind of make fun of the song that was just sang and use it in an even more, you know, villainous and taunting way to her. While all of this is happening, Cervantes, outside of the story, takes us to Quixote, and I'm just gonna refer to Alanzo as Quixote from here on out so that we're not confusing people too much. Cervantes takes us to Quixote's family, which I believe consists of his niece and housekeeper.

[40:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. Right?

[40:03] Kiki Ball-Change: Mm-hmm.

[40:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And they have gone to visit, which is interesting, the, like the local priest, the padre, to discuss what to do about this embarrassment in their family. And it's this brilliant song called We're Only Thinking of Him. And it's in a confessional box. Thou doth protest too much. Yes!

[40:17] Kiki Ball-Change: And again, like-

[40:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In a confessional box.

[40:19] Kiki Ball-Change: And it so relates to people now where it's like, well, I'm only thinking of the kids, or I'm only thinking of-

[40:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The children.

[40:25] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah, I'm thinking of the children, or I'm thinking of, I'm only thinking of the community, I'm only thinking of, you know, whatever. But really, they're thinking of themselves. They're not happy with the situation that someone else has put upon them. How it makes them look. How it makes them look as the family, how it makes them look as members of the community to have this madman in their family. And, you know, we see later with the person that's engaged to Antonia, his niece, that he is also like, how am I expected to marry into this family when there's a madman in the family? And so, you know, in true fashion, you know, whenever religious extremists, or right-wing people, or, you know, whatever you wanna call them today in relation, you know, they go to the church, and they say, oh, I've been such a good person.

I've done nothing wrong. I, you know, I don't deserve this. Please help me figure this out. God, please help me figure this out. Pastor, you know, whatever. And the pastor, you know, Padre, is hearing both sides of the story, and he kind of sees that they are only thinking of themselves. But, of course, the true brilliance of the song is that it's all caught.

[41:32] Kiki Ball-Change: I'm only thinking of him, but then every verse is, what happens to me if, what happens to me if, you know? In addition, this fiancé of the niece has, I think, an added piece of information to encourage him to figure this whole situation out, because Quixote owns the land and the property. And if he has any hope of, like, inheriting all of this, they need to figure it out, right? So the fiancé and the padre decide to go on their own little quest to cure Quixote of his craziness. And he's a doctor. That's also another point. Oh, is he? Oh, I think I forgot. It's Dr. Carrasco. So I don't, I think, from what I remember, I don't know if they ever specifically say what kind of doctor he is, but he's definitely, like, a well-educated man that, you know, the padre and he feel confident that with his expertise, he'll be able to kind of bring Alonso back from the madness that he has fallen into.

[42:43] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah. All right. Now here's, this might be a little controversial. Sure. Um, as I was reading through the script, everybody who comes in contact with, uh, Quixote are really interested in facts. And Don Quixote is not so much interested in facts. And I wonder if we are kind of, I'm not saying we're politicizing the story, but if we are looking at things in terms of conservative and liberals, have we in any way on our side of things held so tightly to facts that we've kind of encouraged the other side to embrace their misinformation as an impossible dream or a Don Quixote type quest?

[43:37] Kiki Ball-Change: Well, I did, I think maybe the last two Man of La Mancha's I performed was during the Trump administration. And that was something that I did think about at the time was, was kind of like, oh, Don Quixote is kind of like a Trump where he's going around and shouting all these lies and trying to make people believe them. And he's out of his mind and doesn't know what he's saying and views things as they aren't. And I think there, you know, obviously there's two sides of the coin. You know, you can, you can view it as idealistic. You can view it as fantastical and beautiful. You can also view it as there's this guy that is a liar, you know, and that is kind of how the family sees him as like, he's just lying about everything.

This isn't who he is. This isn't who he's been. This, you know, he's fallen into misinformation by reading all these books, you know, which is very much, you know, what we're seeing today. But also on the other side, you can say that about, you know, Ron DeSantis, the governor of Florida has banned a bunch of books and told schools to take books out because he believes the books are grooming children to be, you know, woke and be, you know, queer and all of that. And so, like I said, there's two sides of the coin to that. Both sides, I think, view the other side as the liar, the person that's pushing misinformation or, you know, pushing this society that isn't what's right and what's true. And so, you know, I think you can look at him both ways.

And I think that's the point of the show is like, who is the villain? Who is the good guy who is trying to do, you know, what's right? You know, some people can view the family, you know, the housekeeper and Antonia and Dr. Carrasco and the Padre as the good guys trying to save him, you know, but also Don Quixote is the protagonist of the show. So you kind of have to, you know, you have to fall into his version of reality as well and see his side of the story and believe that as good and true. So it's tough, but it's but so it's, you know, that's life.

[45:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, it's complex, which is like actually what life is.

[45:43] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah, which is complex. And that's what I love so much about musical theater is that by revealing the inner lives through this glorious music and really beautiful insights, because should Don Quixote have been arrested for destroying a windmill? Yeah, yeah, probably. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like destruction of someone's property because you thought it was a giant? Yes, he would probably be taken to jail for that sort of thing. Is it also really interesting to learn from his quest and see how beautiful it is that he sees in Aldonza something that she doesn't even see in herself? That too is beautiful.

[46:36] Kiki Ball-Change: And I think the difference between someone like Trump or someone that like George Santos that is constantly just spewing lies left and right, you can't even keep track of what the truth is. I think there's also intent. And I think the intent behind Don Quixote is not malicious at all. In fact, it's the complete opposite. He views everything as he wants everything to be chivalrous and kind and pure, and he sees the good in everything. And so I think that is kind of the difference of he's not really a Trumpian character. He is, you know, we can say like Harold Hill, someone who comes to a town maliciously to trick people that I would say is more of a Trumpian character of a liar with malicious intent.

But I think Don Quixote truly is just like trying to make the world trying to make the world better through his point of view. And I think that is what you said about how our side that is so, you know, hard on on telling the truth and being factual and having information that is, you know, real. You know, I think that is kind of the where we lose a bit of the mystery and the magic of life when we only stick to not everything that is lawful is necessarily good. If that makes sense. You know, like not all laws are necessarily with the best intent at harm reduction or, you know, any of that. Anyway, I could go on and on.

[47:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, that's so true. To me, what I'm walking away with from this little convo is it's always been the artist's responsibility to dream and bring those dreams to the masses and help inspire them. And if we as artists abandon those dreams, we've actually given up our power because our greatest power is to tell stories, is to inspire. And so I don't want to just shout and say they're lying, they're lying, they're lying constantly. I want to also be putting my efforts into this and to telling the stories that truly inspire people, because that's what has been been happening since the 1500s. And I'll be damned if I'm going to stop doing it in 2023, you know.

[48:36] Kiki Ball-Change: Going through a lot of these amazing songs, Sancho sings, I really like him, which is just him saying why he sticks around with Don Quixote. That inspires Aldonza to self-reflect and think of, you know, what does he want of me? Don Quixote meets a barber who has a bowl, a shaving basin, yes, that Don Quixote sees as the golden helmet of Mambrino. All of these great little pieces. The Padre and Dr. Carrasco come upon Quixote and it seems that Padre has his own kind of turn of heart or change of heart. And I think from the beginning, he was never quite like, he's always kind of seen through the family of that they are only thinking of themselves. And that's kind of what he sings about in that song earlier.

You know, so I think he's, he's already kind of like, on the precipice of like, he just wants to see what's going on for himself. And then once he sees that he's like, oh, he's not doing any harm. He's just living in his own world. And so I think when he sings, oh my god, I sing this song, To Eaches Dulcinea, you know, that is kind of his time to reflect and be like, you know, to each his own is basically what he's saying. And he can live his own life. And I'm living mine. But that doesn't mean our lives are at odds with each other. We can both live peacefully in the same world. And again, queer theme, queer theme, especially with religion of, you know, religious people that understand that, you know, yes, maybe, you know, my brother is very religious.

He's a very religious Jew. And so he doesn't necessarily believe that being gay is something you're born with. He believes it's something you're born with, but he believes you can choose to act upon it or not in order to, you know, live to the way God wants us to. But for me, as his brother, he doesn't judge me for living my life the way that I live it. I don't believe it, you know, I'm not going to choose to live as a heterosexual, but he understands that I live my life, you know, the way I want to, he supports my drag, you know, everything, but he also lives in his own world of religion and what he believes. And so, but we both live in the same world. We're both at peace with how we live our lives.

And so I think that's kind of where the Padre is seeing Don Quixote at this moment is like, he's living his life the way he wants to, and he seems to be happy. And if he's not hurting anyone, then who am I to say what he should do? Which is a really nuanced piece of storytelling for a show that's taking place during the Spanish Inquisition. It could have been very easy to just say all religious people bad, but here the one person who truly understands and empathizes with what Don Quixote is trying to do is the Padre, which is very cool.

[51:42] Kiki Ball-Change: Aldonza comes to Don Quixote and provides the opportunity for the impossible dream. I always thought, for some reason, I always thought the impossible dream was like toward the end of the show. It's actually smack in the middle, right? That's usually where the intermission comes. Right after that song. But Aldonza says like, what are you doing? Like, what are your intentions? Because I can sense that there's something different about you than say all the militias who are grabbing at my skirts, but can you please share with me what you believe? And he sings the impossible dream, which is just a perfect song. I don't know what to tell y'all. Like, beginning to end. Perfect.

[52:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, absolutely. It gives you everything you need. A big ending, a build versus beautiful lyrics. It's the song of all songs.

[52:37] Kiki Ball-Change: And it's also not trite. It's not him saying, this is the moment. This is the moment. This is the moment. Not calling Frank Wildhorn out or anything, but it's a truly beautiful lyric, poetic lyric. Yeah, it's all about seeing the good in things and having hope when things are hopeless, which, again, resonates generation after generation of if you don't have hope, what do you have? Nothing. So yeah, beautiful song.

[53:04] Kiki Ball-Change: Now, the last half of the show is Don Quixote needing to be dubbed a knight. Even though he has decided he is a knight, he needs to actually have the ceremony. So he has the innkeeper, the one who owns the quote unquote castle, do the dubbing. Before that, he decides that he's going to go and fast. He's going to do a full fast to prepare for this great ceremony, which is just so pure. So he prepares for this knighting, right? The innkeeper knights him, Knight of the Woeful Countess. But then there's also this struggle with him and the muleteers. And he is victorious somehow, despite having fasted and not having any energy. And some of the muleteers are injured. Right after the knighthood, he goes to mend their wounds.

And Aldonza is like, What are you doing? And I mean, just incredible as like this act of chivalry. He's like, No, I inflicted my wounds, but they're still my brothers. So I am going to adhere to them. And she says, Well, they're my enemies, too. So I'll take care of it. Oh, so beautiful. So she goes. And that's when you really see the change with Aldonza. Yes, where she's buying into this. And so she takes it upon herself to go and help these men who have been treating her terribly this whole time, like talk about a true act of Christianity.

[54:45] Kiki Ball-Change: And, um, oh, my gosh, it's been so long since I've gotten emotional on the show. And as she's helping them, it becomes this rape scene. And it's not just like a rape scene from West Side Story. Like, it's awful. Did you have to do this scene?

[55:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. How did you feel? I mean, it's got to be rough.

[55:06] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah. I mean, the first time I ever did it, when we choreographed it, I had to like, pull my director aside because it was really I I'm a victim of sexual assault as well. So it was so sorry. Thank you. But you know, and I'm open about that. But it was it was really, really and now thinking about it again, I'm getting emotional to remembering like, it was really difficult to

[55:24] Kiki Ball-Change: Be the aggressor in that situation. And then you have to have such an immense amount of trust between the militia's and Aldonza to even start that scene and to do it night after night. It's such, and again, usually when shows do it, they have an intermission and then the start of act two is the abduction, you know? So it's not, it's a terrible way to kind of start an act and also just a terrible scene to take part in. And you know, it is choreographed kind of like West Side Story, but it is definitely like they beat her up. They rape her. They carry her off her limp body. They carry off stage to further, you know, do things to. And it is, it is, and again for the 60s, for 1965 to do that kind of scene in the middle of a show, it's heartbreaking and it's horrible, but it also shows like how cruel people can be to people that are trying to help them or people that, you know, haven't done anything wrong.

You know, they're just existing in their world and, you know, just being in the wrong place at the wrong time with a group of angry and even trying to change their outlook on life. You know, she's trying to put effort into making her life a little bit different and to sing "Little Bird" on top of that, such a beautiful song on its own, and then to have the dissonant chords on top of it. Truly something that if I could cut one thing from that show, I would cut that scene, but it's important to the story to have it. But it's just a really hard scene to do. I feel like it really halts any progress for her.

[56:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right to believe that the world could be any different. I mean, to go back to your queer themes, how brave do we all have to be to live our truth or, you know, to just live in general? Like maybe it's not even queer, maybe it's just anybody who tries to live their truth in this world. You don't do it easily. You don't do it without a lot of contrast. And hopefully, it's not as traumatic as what Aldonza goes through, but sometimes it is. She sings this song called "Aldonza." It's kind of like her impossible dream in a way. She tells her entire story in this song, and we get to know exactly who she was, who she came from. Kind of like what you said, I feel like it all comes from this song showing that like her life has never been easy.

It'll never be easy. And she's not falling into, you know, kind of in a way that you said about escapism. It kind of helps people get out of their situation. Sometimes people use blunt realism to be like, "This is my situation. This is what I'm in. I can't change it, so I might as well be okay with it." And I think that is kind of where she's at at this point in the show and where she was at before kind of she met Don Quixote. You know, like you said, I think that's a great way of putting it. It's kind of her response to the impossible dream is, "No, we can't dream. We have to be real, and this is my reality." And you need to see that even through your madness. You need to understand that this is my life.

Like every time I hear that song, no matter who is singing it, whatever actress I've been, you know, has been the Aldonza in our show, it is powerful. It is like an incredible song that really truly describes a character to a T and why they are who they are.

[59:11] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah, amen. The end, I say in quotes, of Don Quixote comes in the form of the Knight of Mirrors, which is actually Dr. Carrasco, right? Yes. He has realized that the way to defeat the craziness that is Don Quixote is to come to battle as a knight himself. And he has with him an army of shields that act as mirrors. And when all of those shields are put together, they force Don Quixote to see himself for who he actually is. And I guess it works, question mark? Yeah, he sees Alonso again and is taken back to where he came from now in almost a catatonic depressed state. Yeah, it kind of shocks him back into reality almost where he, you know, it is kind of you have to kind of buy into it that he's like taken out by the mirrors.

But, you know, it is kind of, and again, queer theme. You know, I was thinking about it and just being, you know, trans themes really resonate with Don Quixote and Alonso because it's kind of like the attack on Don Quixote is saying, "No, this is who you are. This is who you've always been. We're showing you who you are from how we see you," and kind of forcing him back into the closet of who he used to be but doesn't want to be anymore. And so I think the shock of that, you know, we buy into it, but the shock of being forced back to who you don't want to be kind of renders him weak and ill. You know, it is kind of, it is a little bit to buy into the fact that it really truly takes him out. But no, it's beautiful though. I mean, because they're making theater in case anyone's forgot, we're all still in the prison.

[1:01:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, exactly. You know, like we're, I'm totally here in this story, but like the reality is I'm looking at people in a prison. And throughout, you know, throughout the captain of the guard pulls someone up. They're screaming the whole way. It interrupts the entire story, you know? So we get reminders that we're constantly, the captain comes in and it's like, "Cervantes, your time is coming." You know, so then he's like, "I have to hurry. I have to get this show." Yeah, I have to finish the story, you know? So, yeah, so that's where we're at. He's currently in the house with his niece and his housekeeper and the padre and Dr. Carrasco, and he is kind of rendered unconscious by this attack by Carrasco. Aldonza comes back. She forces her way into the home, into the room, and it's because she doesn't want to be Aldonza anymore. She only wants to be known as Dulcinea.

[1:02:12] Kiki Ball-Change: Oh, that's what I want. I want to spend my time being around people who make me feel like the person I want to be, not who are reminding me that I'm never going to be the person I want to be. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I hate to be the queer themes fairy here, but you know, okay, finding chosen family, you know, finding a family that you can relate to that makes you better than the family you grew up with or, you know, that gives you something that your biological family can't give you. And that is the true acceptance to be who you really are, who you want to be, and who you see yourself as. And I think that's what Don Quixote inspires in Aldonza. And it's symbiotic too because by her coming in and singing to him his own message, right?

She sings this little reprise of "The Impossible Dream." He stands back up again as Don Quixote and says, "All right, I am, you're right. I am the man of La Mancha. Let's go." But his new conversion is interrupted by his frail mortal body, and he falls dead.

[1:03:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So he dies here at the end. Sancho is just completely distraught, right? And Aldonza says that, you know, Alonso may be dead, but Don Quixote lives in all of us. And he says something like, you know, "Thank you, Aldonza." And she replies, "My name is Dulcinea." My name is Dulcinea. It gets me every time. It gets me every time. It's so good. So that is kind of the end of that story, but then we go back into the prison. And I mean after that, after that, you just see this prison has been transformed. Cervantes has told his story. The commander comes in to take him to his trial, but not before the prisoners have all found him not guilty. They give him his manuscript. They give him his possessions, and Cervantes goes up the staircase to, you know, face the future while everybody sings "The Impossible Dream."

And it's different lyrics than the last time. And every single time I sing it, I cry. It's just like, because also there's not a lot of harmonies in the show in general. There's rarely a time where everyone's singing at the same time and sings in harmony. It's like "Golden Helmet of Man," "Bruno," "The Impossible Dream" at the end, and I think like maybe one more time. But so when the entire, you have the entire chorus rarely singing together, and at the end, they're all singing this rousing anthem of reaching the impossible star as he goes up the stairs to meet his fate. It's like every single time it makes me cry, every single time. It gives me chills. It's hard to get through. It's a hard show in general to get through as an actor, but that truly is one of the most beautiful moments of any show I've ever been a part of is singing the finale of "Man of La Mancha."

[1:05:36] Kiki Ball-Change: That's incredible. So what do you think we're left with as an audience after seeing this show?

[1:05:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, I think kind of we view it the same way the prisoners view it is we come into it skeptical of what we're going to see. And I think, you know, we are constantly left with the feeling, you know, obviously there's a lot of sadness in the show. It's a very dark, heavy show, especially for a 90-minute show. You know, so I think sure, I think every time in my experience audiences are moved. And one of the things that the show really gets, hits you over the head with every time is to have hope and to see the good in things and, you know, to live as your authentic self. And so I think audiences, no matter who they are, how they, you know, relate to the world or how they see themselves, can relate to the messaging of that. You know, no matter where you lie on any spectrum, always in my opinion, the best American musicals have that undying sense of hope.

[1:06:43] Kiki Ball-Change: I completely agree. Thank you so much for doing this with me.

[1:06:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course, I'm so happy to join you. Total joy. As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on "A Musical Theatre Podcast," you can always email me at amusicalpodcast@gmail.com. Don't forget to follow us on social media. We're on Instagram, Twitter, TikTok at amusicalpodcast. We've got Patreon! Where for only one dollar a month you can gain access to bonus episodes and support the show. We have a great time on Patreon! Also, we have our TeePublic store where you can put many awesome designs on lots of things, and all of the profits from those purchases will go to Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS. Above all, you guys, you know I love you. I'm so grateful that you're a part of this podcasting community. Hey, Miss Kiki Ball-Change, how do we follow you and everything you're up to?

[1:07:35] Kiki Ball-Change: I make it very easy. You can follow me on all social media at Kiki Ball-Change. That's K-I-K-I, Ball like the sphere and Change like what we need in this world. Amen.

[1:07:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'll amen from the church. That's great. That's awesome. I'd love to see you sometime next time I'm in New York.

[1:07:53] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah, let me know. Thank you for having me. This, you know, I love the pod. I listened to many, many episodes and I was like, you know what? Maybe they'll have me. I know I haven't been on Broadway, but I'm a star in my own right even.

[1:08:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. I did not even hesitate. I was like, yes, please. Thank you. Let's do this. And I did it when I first reached out to you. I didn't even plan on talking. I didn't even think about queer themes in "Man of La Mancha," but I'm really glad that we did this because it really had me thinking about a lot of really interesting themes that can relate to the queer community. So thank you so much for having me.

[1:08:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, my pleasure. Thank you so much for coming up with the idea. Everybody out there, thank you for listening and remember, you know what? Dream the impossible dream. Like that's what we gotta say.

[1:08:43] Kiki Ball-Change: Yeah, dream it, dream it, be it, do it, live it, just dream it.

[1:08:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: From another musical.

[1:08:53] Kiki Ball-Change: Be it.

[1:08:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How's that for queer theme?

[1:09:11] Kiki Ball-Change: That's great.