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[0:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, I want to start out by discussing the F-word. Now, on this podcast, the F-word is not a bad word. And by F-word, I mean flop. A musical flop is the term that we have come to associate with musicals that have failed on Broadway, whether it's artistically or financially, usually both. But what I want to do is to always make room for conversations about flops, because our failures often teach us much more about the art form and about the society in which they're created than sometimes even our successes. Three of the shows that are quote-unquote flops that I've been most fascinated with have been A Doll's Life, Minnie's Boys, and Grind. And what's so freaking awesome is the guest who's going to join me in a conversation about these three shows today is the composer, Mr. Larry Grossman. Say hi, Larry.

[0:56] Larry Grossman: Hi, there.

[1:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the emotional and cultural impact of some of our favorite shows in musical theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are talking about A Doll's Life, Minnie's Boys, and Grind. Now, Larry Grossman, you were kind enough to come on the show, and I am so very grateful. Thank you, thank you.

[1:33] Larry Grossman: It's fun to be here.

[1:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You are an esteemed composer. You have had and continue to have an amazing career. We were just talking about how my friends up at 42nd Street Moon in San Francisco have enjoyed, now for a couple of years, sold-out crowds to your new show Scrooge and Love. This is the third year they've done it.

[1:51] Larry Grossman: The third year, right?

[1:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So, there's really no sign of you slowing down creatively, and you've had amazing successes that I want to actually talk about really quickly here at the top. I'm a huge Disney fan, and you worked on The Great Mouse Detective and Prince's Diaries, too. Oh, and Pocahontas, too. Let's not forget. Judy Kuhn was still singing on it, right?

[2:12] Larry Grossman: Sure was.

[2:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's amazing. I think one of your best-known musicals is Snoopy, which has been done in so many languages all over the world.

[2:22] Larry Grossman: It's done a lot.

[2:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. You won a Peabody Award for working on The Muppet Show. Iconic.

[2:28] Larry Grossman: The Muppet Show was fun. I mean... It was all done in London, you know.

[2:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Was it really?

[2:33] Larry Grossman: Yeah. The studio and everything was in London?

[2:38] Larry Grossman: Oh, yeah, and the guest stars came over there. Part of my job, a big part of my job, was helping choose the guest stars.

[2:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, well, you did a great job. There were a few who I just treasure having worked with. You also have worked on countless TV music specials from, you know, the 60s and 70s. Julie Andrews, Shirley MacLaine, Liza Minnelli, Goldie Hawn. You also co-wrote the Peace on Earth, Little Drummer Boy song that is now a Christmas standard with Bing Crosby and David Bowie.

[3:02] Larry Grossman: It's amazing how that happened.

[3:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, tell me.

[3:08] Larry Grossman: It was Bing Crosby. What turned out to be Bing Crosby's last TV special. He sadly died about six weeks later.

[3:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[3:16] Larry Grossman: But he had those annual shows with his family, the Christmas shows.

[3:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[3:22] Larry Grossman: Which after a few years got tiresome. The previous one was done here in LA with Fred Astaire as the guest star. But anyway, the one in London, the guest star was David Bowie. He came in to the first production meeting to read the script and go through what we were doing. Came in with the full makeup and a floor-length mink coat.

[3:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[3:44] Larry Grossman: Yeah, it was really coincidental David Bowie. His then wife was with him. They were dressed like twins. And we sat down and he said, the script is really cute. I think it was the word he said, but what do you really want me to sing? And Gary Smith, who was the producer, I said, well, we really want you to do a duet with Bing of Little Drummer Boy because it's written in thirds, you know, and it's perfect harmony. And he said, I won't sing that song. If I should sing that song, I won't do the show. He was absolutely against Little Drummer Boy. And I just don't want to go on television and sing it.

[4:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[4:17] Larry Grossman: Anyway, what do we do? Gary said, write a counterpoint. So we went back in our little room and wrote Peace on Earth. And it took maybe a half hour.

[4:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[4:30] Larry Grossman: And we brought in the next day and Bowie came and said, I love this. I've got to do it. Inspired. And then I think it was my question. I said, well, why are you doing this show? My mother loves Bing Crosby. His mom, I think. And it's become like a standard.

[4:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey, everybody, I'm pressing pause on my conversation with Larry to explain a little bit about how this episode is going to go, because it's very different than any other episode I've done so far. Since we're talking about shows that are really difficult to see, Larry and I are going to talk about the show. And then throughout the episode, you'll hear anecdotes, stories and testimonials, if you will, from people who saw the show on Broadway or have been involved in production since then. I think it's actually really fun. And thank you to all those who participated. So sit back and enjoy these many perspectives on these great shows.

[5:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So you've obviously had so much success and so many great stories and wonderful memories. When you have experiences that are labeled, and I say that in quotation marks with the F word, does that shade your memories of them in a different way?

[5:45] Larry Grossman: Absolutely.

[5:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And does it still sting a little bit? Or how do you feel about these three projects?

[5:52] Larry Grossman: Well, I have different feelings about all three.

[5:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, that's cool.

[5:56] Larry Grossman: Minnie's Boys was the first show I did. And it was like I had died and gone to heaven.

[6:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[6:01] Larry Grossman: It was, up until a certain point, just a joyous experience. So that was an introduction to the world of Broadway. And the show kept changing, but in bad ways, everyone got fired, except Hal Ackerman and I, for the score.

[6:16] Larry Grossman: There's like a youthful exuberance and joy to the beginning of the Minnie's Boys experience. That's the first book show I ever wrote. Minnie's Boys opened in 1970 and closed after 80 performances.

[6:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: 80 performances.

[6:31] Larry Grossman: Lasted for 80 performances, I think, because of the popularity of the subject matter. We had a huge advance, but when the reviews came out, the advance disappeared.

[6:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Kind of disappeared.

[6:41] Larry Grossman: And it just dropped every week. And suddenly it was not viable. The show shows how five sons became Groucho, Chico, Harpo, Zeppo, and Gummo, aka the Marx Brothers. For anybody out there who might not know who the Marx Brothers are, incredibly famous troupe of brothers who invented and perfected this style of comedy that was preserved on film in Duck Soup and A Night at the Opera, both of which are considered two of the best comedy films of all time. And their humor was always highlighted by anarchy. They always had the best of intentions, but wherever they showed up, chaos soon followed. And that sense of humor has continued to influence comedies today. Cartoons, especially animated series like Family Guy, all do Marx Brothers bits. And what Minnie's Boys did was look at how they came to be. And the force behind that evolution was their mother, Minnie, who was kind of the first momager. You know, stand aside, Kardashians.

[7:50] Larry Grossman: Minnie was laying the groundwork for-

[7:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She was also ahead of Mama Rose, too.

[7:53] Larry Grossman: Right.

[7:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mama Rose was like a decade later. And I think that also that was one of the things that hurt the show, right? Were the constant comparisons to Gypsy.

[8:00] Larry Grossman: Constant comparisons to it.

[8:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, Gypsy being-

[8:05] Larry Grossman: She's no Ethel Merman. We heard that a lot.

[8:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But also, I don't think you were creating a Mama Rose with Minnie, were you? Had you set out to create a Mama Rose?

[8:12] Larry Grossman: No, it was not the character at all. She was much more lovable and funny. And the day that the casting happened, we were all at Groucho's house and we're sitting at his dining room table having like lunch. And he said, have you guys given any thought who you want to play my mother? And Arthur Whitelaw said, piped up. He said, yeah, it doesn't matter what factor we have. He said, who is that? Toadie Fields. He pushed his chair away from the table. This is a quote, this is a quote. If that fat Jew plays my mother, I wash my hands of this project.

[8:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[8:48] Larry Grossman: And he got up and went down the hall and came back with a photograph from the wall. He held up the picture and he said, who does this look like? And Arthur said, Shelly Winters. He said, that's who's going to play my mother.

[9:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[9:01] Larry Grossman: That's how Shelly got the part. If I'm being totally honest, I'm a big Shelly Winters fan in terms of film.

[9:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Are you really?

[9:07] Larry Grossman: Yeah.

[9:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, watching her on film is fascinating because she is always...

[9:13] Larry Grossman: She's an original.

[9:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, you're exactly right. You know, I worked with Shelly for several weeks teaching her the songs in her living room. And I said, now maybe this will work. And I looked up on the mantle, there are two Oscars. So I mentioned it to a film person. He said, yeah, you know, I actually got those Oscars. Shelly's performances are edited. And like George Stevens, when they did The Diary of Anne Frank, just cut out half of what she actually performed on the set. She was kind of meant for that medium in a way.

[9:44] Larry Grossman: Oh, absolutely.

[9:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And she was fun. But when we got in the theater, it was just hopeless. And she missed previews or she went out with a book in hand. And it just got worse and worse. So when we tried to fire Shelly X number of weeks later, Shelly's manager came to us and said, the only way Shelly will leave the show is if you pay her what she would have gotten to do a movie. She'd been offered a movie at the same time.

[10:08] Larry Grossman: Oh, boy.

[10:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And we couldn't afford it. We'd already spent the budget. And that's how we ended up keeping her. One of the best reviewed things of the show, besides many of your tunes, was Louis J. Stadlin, who played Groucho. And I think one of the real tragedies of this original production was that he was never nominated for a Tony Award for that performance.

[10:31] Larry Grossman: It hurt all of us because that was a Tony performance.

[10:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It was.

[10:34] Larry Grossman: It was not only worthy for nomination, but for a win as well. And I've read that many people blame the New York Times Review that basically said he was terrific, but maybe he's just doing an impression and is kind of a one-trick call.

[10:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The New York Times Review, Clive Barnes was writing for the Times then. He, in reviewing the show, had a line that said, well, not to say that the score is gross and hack. It's da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

[11:00] Larry Grossman: Oh, stop it.

[11:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, he did. The next day at the Dramatists Guild meeting, Garson Kainan got up and condemned that line and wanted a retraction from the Times. They didn't get it. Anyway, it had a Band-Aid on it because we got a call that David Merrick wanted to meet with us.

[11:21] Larry Grossman: Really?

[11:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: With Hal and I, yeah. He said, you guys got a rotten deal with that review. And he said, you're really good. I'd like to work with you.

[11:30] Larry Grossman: That's wonderful.

[11:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: David Merrick, of course, being one of the most famous producers of all time. We talked about him on the podcast before. He was the guy behind Hello, Dolly! and countless others. The standout song of the entire show was La Ma Rainbow, which became and has continued to be a well-known and often performed song in cabarets and concerts. And what I love, I think, most about the song, besides being a beautiful melody and a beautiful lyric, is that you guys wrote it for Harpo, who is a silent character. Always in film, Harpo never said anything. The motive behind that was the fact that he would express himself in a way that he doesn't do anywhere in the show. The love spills out. And it's tragic that Danny died so young. Danny Fortes came in to audition for Harpo. He was 17 years old. He came in with bib overalls. And the piano player started to play.

[12:31] Larry Grossman: Move over, world. You're going to hear from me. His voice was just incredible. This cute 17-year-old kid who had pet rabbits in his apartment.

[12:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, well, Minnie's Boys was a fantastic concept and came out in 1970. The other big musicals at that point were Applause with Lauren Bacall, which is the musical version of All About Eve. So there was this kind of return to classic film as a source of new musical theater on Broadway. So Minnie's Boys did kind of fit right into that trend. So it seemed like a good fit. But it's interesting how the perfect circumstances can derail.

[13:15] Susan Edwards Martin: Hi, this is Susan Edwards Martin, and I had the pleasure of playing the role of Minnie in Minnie's Boys for the Musical Theatre Guild's rendition last season at the Alex Theatre, and it was such a thrill to be in rehearsal and have Larry Grossman there. I mean, to have the composer there working with you and watching you and helping to guide us through, it was just thrilling and a total joy. And to play the role of Minnie was so fulfilling for me. I mean, I'm a Jewish mom. I have a son. So to have all these sons in this musical was so much fun for me. And I got to sing some great songs. I mean, it was just such a fulfilling experience. And just a little side note, when the show first came out on Broadway, I actually knew one of the originals of that.

His name was Danny Fortis, and he sang the song Mama, a Rainbow. And I went to school. He had a brother, Barry Fortis, and we were in school together at the time, and Danny was a little bit younger. Anyway, we were so thrilled that when he got a Broadway show, that was like the most exciting thing. Anyway, so that's my affiliation with Minnie's Boys. And Larry was just a delight to work with. Thanks. Hope you're having a great day. Bye.

[14:52] Larry Grossman: What's interesting then about A Doll's Life is that the greatest criticism that came from that show, which came out in 1982, was that conceptually, people felt like it was a bad idea. That it was a bad idea to turn this story into a musical. It shouldn't matter. A Doll's Life opened in, like I said, 1982, and closed only three days after it opened. I played here in L.A. for 10 weeks at the Omen.

[15:21] Jeff Parsons: Oh, so that was your pre-Broadway.

[15:23] Larry Grossman: I know the show so intimately because of that long run. I came to New York, did a few previews, and closed after a weekend. I think Doll's Life is so fascinating. It's a musical that picks up where Henrik Ibsen's play, A Doll's House, ends. So Henrik Ibsen was a legendary playwright, writes this show in 1879 called A Doll's House, and he's regularly known as the father of realism. Shakespeare was often about kings and royalty, and also in prose, right? Moliere. Henrik Ibsen was kind of this first playwright to write a show about an everyday person and have them speak in an everyday way. And in A Doll's House, his character, Nora, is being mistreated or undervalued by her husband, and at the end of the show, she leaves.

She walks out and slams the door, and people have often talked about the slamming of that door as having repercussions throughout all of history. It was one of the forces behind the suffragette movement. Right. People used it to bring about the ideals of feminism. So it's this fascinating play, and what A Doll's Life does is act as kind of a sequel. What happens to Nora? What happens to this character after the slamming of the door? And whose idea was it to do the show? Because you did it with some legendary people.

[16:51] Larry Grossman: Betty and Adolph had been on a tour of a visit to Scandinavia.

[16:55] Jeff Parsons: Betty Compton and Adolph Green.

[16:57] Larry Grossman: Adolph Green, right. They wrote Singing in the Rain. They were great theater writers. They got the idea while they were in Norway.

[17:09] Jeff Parsons: Which is where Henrik Ibsen is from.

[17:11] Larry Grossman: Yeah. And they came up with this idea and brought it to Hal Prince. The same time that happened, Hal had gotten interested in my work as a composer. And he kept saying, I've got to get a show for you, kid. You know, Hal's everybody's kid. Hal Prince really fast is one of the most legendary producer-directors of Broadway history. Every musical that you respect is probably attached to Hal Prince somehow. He said, Betty and Adolph came up with this idea, and he said, I'm kind of intrigued by it. He said, this may be a long shot, Larry, but would you be interested, would you come to the office and meet with them? And I never, you know, I worshipped them. But we went to the office and we had a nice chat. And I thought that they were kind of being polite to take the meeting. And Hal said, why don't you go off and write what you think might be introductory music or kind of a semi-version of an overture. He said, make it classical sounding.

[18:16] Larry Grossman: Hal said that, which it was. And it's incredible. It's actually some of my favorite stuff that you've ever written.

[18:20] Jeff Parsons: It's my favorite show.

[18:24] Larry Grossman: Is it? Yeah. The cast album is available on Amazon.com, so you can download it or buy a hard copy. I know. And I really recommend that people go and listen to it. Especially, you don't get characters singing music like that usually in musical theater. It was an original idea. But they liked what I had written. And I spent two years in a room with them working. And it just, I learned so much working with them. The day that we wrote that opera sequence, the three of us were rolling on the floor. Literally, it was in Betty's studio. Never laughed so hard in my life. I respected them so much. And they got a raw deal from the critics.

[19:05] Jeff Parsons: It seemed like a true passion project of Betty in particular for this piece.

[19:10] Larry Grossman: Exactly. The thing for me is I felt with that show, I made a transition from songwriter to composer. You know what I mean? That's huge. It's subtle and yet huge at the same time. Previous here, people come backstage and, we didn't know you could do that. Yeah, right. And all I said was, I didn't either. It was because of Hal. People became aware of me and what I could do. And it also fed into the work I was doing on television.

[19:38] Jeff Parsons: That's so beautiful. An audition, sorry, we were fishing for, you know, a Nora. And one of the agents sent in this girl, Meryl Streep.

[19:49] Larry Grossman: Oh.

[19:50] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, and she came in and she said, it's Hal's office. Betty and Hal were there and I played several of the things. She's just, boy, I love this material. God, I love to do it. She said, I'm up for a film. I said, you know, if I do it, it's going to change my life. It's Sophie's Choice. Are you kidding me?

[20:06] Larry Grossman: So Meryl Streep auditioned for A Doll's Life and then got Sophie's Choice.

[20:11] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, and then we auditioned for Glenn Close.

[20:14] Larry Grossman: Why did you decide on Betsy?

[20:16] Jeff Parsons: Well, Hal had worked with her. She was in Sweeney Todd.

[20:18] Larry Grossman: Oh, right, she took over in Joanna.

[20:19] Jeff Parsons: She played the, you know, Joanna, right?

[20:21] Larry Grossman: Right.

[20:22] Jeff Parsons: And her voice is magnificent.

[20:25] Larry Grossman: She has that clear bell-like sound like Julia has.

[20:27] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[20:28] Larry Grossman: Which is so rare. She did a beautiful job. Of course, George Hearn was George Hearn.

[20:33] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[20:34] Larry Grossman: And the combination was great.

[20:38] Jeff Parsons: That's great. I want to read something real fast, which is from one of my Bibles. It's called Not Since Carrie, which is a book all about flops that Ken Mandelbaum wrote. I love this book. I've read it so many times. But in talking about A Doll's Life, he says this, and I disagree with him greatly, just to put that out there. If talents like Prince Comden Green and Grossman could not make A Doll's Life work, it was because the idea they started with was doomed to failure. Why ask what happened to Nora after she slammed the door at the end of A Doll's House? Ibsen's play deliberately ended there, having made its point without needing to go any further. So that was his take, was why on earth do this in the first place? What I find so fascinating about that is, fast forward to 2015, a play comes out on Broadway called A Doll's House Part II.

[21:31] Larry Grossman: Yeah, that was a killer.

[21:33] Jeff Parsons: Which becomes this huge hit, wins a Tony Award for Laurie Metcalf in the title role. Everybody loves it. And here's the review from The New York Times about A Doll's House Part II. A Doll's House Part II gives vibrant theatrical life to the conversations that many of us have had after first reading or seeing its prototype, conducted in our own minds or perhaps over blunts and beers in dorm rooms. Ibsen left his unlikely maverick of a heroine on the threshold of a dark and undefined future. Haven't you found yourself pondering not only Nora's fate, but also that of her abandoned husband and children? And I can't help but think, what does this say about our society? What changed from 1982 to then the 2000s that suddenly made this idea or this property viable and a good idea?

When we opened it with A Doll's Life, there was a huge movement against the feminist movement. Everybody was tired of it, they were tired of Gloria Stein, all those champions of women's rights. And it permeated our society, and it was reflected in the reviews.

[22:46] Larry Grossman: Wow. The thing that I came away with from that show was, it was almost divine retribution for that slam from Clyde Barnes. This is Frank Rich, and he said the only two people who knew what they were doing were George Hern and Larry Grossman.

[23:02] Jeff Parsons: Yes.

[23:04] Larry Grossman: That's high praise from that man. From Frank Rich, but I said, okay, I'll buy that. I still didn't make the show. It closed after three performances. One of the things I found a little confusing, on top of this idea of the sequel, was this idea that there was a show within the show, meaning that they were rehearsing A Doll's House, and then the sequel began as that actress playing Nora is trying to figure out the character. And whose idea was it to add that layer? Because that almost felt a little more confusing.

[23:40] Larry Grossman: The set for that was, the opening set was a stage, a rehearsal hall, with all the demarcations on it. You could see where the furniture was placed, and where all the people stood. All the spike marks. And when the music went, it flew.

[23:59] Jeff Parsons: Oh, wow.

[24:00] Larry Grossman: It was like what happened in Phantom.

[24:03] Jeff Parsons: Right.

[24:04] Larry Grossman: And I saw that in London the first time. I said, oh, my God, nobody ever did that. Okay, cool. So that was Hal's idea.

[24:09] Jeff Parsons: Interesting. How would you describe working with Hal Prince?

[24:15] Larry Grossman: As the greatest gift I ever got in my life. Wow. He was a genius. His creative ability was like nobody else's. He reinvented so much of the musical theater. He came up from being an office boy in George Abbott's office, to a stage manager, to a producer, and then becoming a director, and a director of note. I mean, when Cabaret opened, I was like, oh, my God. It was like we didn't know he could do that.

[24:46] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[24:47] Larry Grossman: Cabaret was his. He was so encouraging to me. He changed my life, you know. And Hal was my defender and my champion. And I loved him as a person.

[25:01] Noel Katz: Hi, this is Noel Katz. Musical theater writer who indeed saw A Doll's Life on Broadway way back then. And I was particularly taken with the song Stay With Me Nora, which in between the lines uses this wonderful set of parallel fourths. And I had been taught that you shouldn't use parallel fourths, but Larry Grossman did and made them beautiful. And for years afterwards, there were many situations like classes where people would walk into the room and introduce themselves. And if they had a name that reminded me of a song, I would instantly play that song. And I was kind of waiting for a Nora to walk into the room, because I so love playing the song Stay With Me Nora. But the one time a Nora walked in the room, she didn't know the song.

The third show that I wanted to talk to you about, which is Grind. Grind opened in 1985 and closed after 71 performances. It, like A Doll's Life, was directed by Hal Prince. It had a book by Faye Kanan, who had written a script for a film.

[26:16] Larry Grossman: Yeah, right. For a movie to be made. And it just wasn't going anywhere. And then the opportunity came to turn it into a musical with you guys. What I love about this show.

[26:29] Larry Grossman: We talked about Cabaret, how Hal Prince oversaw that show. It feels like an American cabaret using the metaphor of a burlesque house in Chicago in the 1930s that then becomes a look at the hardships of racial injustice and the climb toward racial equality. And it's all kind of told within the structure of this burlesque house and the grind, the dancing, the hustle. And it's a really great symbolism. I grew up in Chicago. Oh, right. Yeah. So I grew up with all that corruption around it. The idea of the black and white thing was really appealing to me because it would give me a chance to write in two genres at the same time. We started to write it, and the main character was Satin, the chief stripper, head stripper.

And I remember playing it for Debbie Allen. We were talking about Debbie Allen doing it, which would have been wonderful. It would have been wonderful, yeah. And Hal got a call from Ben Vereen. He said, I'd love to work with you because I really respect you. And Hal called and said, what do you think about Ben Vereen? I said, I don't know Ben Vereen. So I went to meet him in a dressing room in Paramount, one of the studios. And he was all Mr. Charm, you know, just sparkly. And he was just, he was Ben Vereen. Yeah. He's a legend at this point, having done Pippin and being a... Jesus Christ Superstar. Exactly. Superstar. His first show. And he was a Fosse accolade, but in a good way.

[28:06] Larry Grossman: So we did some, obviously some rewriting. I remember Debbie was really disappointed because she was kind of a friend of mine. And it became about Leroy, the main character. And when you superimpose the famous, or less comics, of Stubby K and Joey Faye and all these people on top of that, then you add the Irish thing. There's a lot of story. It's just, we started rehearsals and it was really exciting. After two weeks of rehearsal, Ben asked Hal if he could have the weekend off to go to Vegas to meet with his spiritual advisor, came back stoned. One of the producers was there on coke, and the choreographer, and it started to fall apart.

[29:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I have your review here from the New York Times for Grind. And I just wanted to read the first part of it because, okay, so I got this book of all of Frank Rich's reviews in college, and I would sit, like this was my nighttime reading, is I would read these different reviews of his. And just reading the first part of his Grind review, it sounds fascinating to be in the theater watching this. It says, The time is 1933, and the place is a Chicago burlesque house whose black and white performers are kept rigidly segregated onstage and off. Mr. Dunham's towering set can twirl to reveal the theater's gaudy marquee and facade, its stage, its wings, and its several flights of gloomy, clutter-filled dressing rooms. The labyrinthine backstage area suggests a teeming slum, as if Catfish Row had been plunked down in a Reginald Marsh painting of a depression movie palace.

[29:54] Larry Grossman: Boy, that's pretty great writing. I mean, like so evocative. It just describes it. And I was like, I want to be there. I'm sitting here reading this in college, right, thinking, oh my gosh, I want to be there. Soon we're watching the performers who slave at this theater, and their acts have a bleak, intriguing edge. When the lovely Leilani Jones, who was ultimately played at one time, steps out on a light-ringed runway for a strip tease, there's no joy in her routine. Her face is as blank as a prostitute's. There was this sense of entertainment and intrigue that was undeniable.

[30:29] Larry Grossman: Well, people, you know, it had its fans. To bring up Steve Sondheim, Hal took him to see a preview, and Steve called and said, that show, he says, is an eyeful and an earful. He says, it's all in primary colors. Oh, wow. Which to me was a compliment coming from him, because he doesn't give out many compliments. But I hung up the phone. I said, no, he's right. And so you had this full, brassy sound, but then kind of a bleak, almost angry tone to...

[31:05] Larry Grossman: It's a totally, it's a lot of anger. It's a lot of anger. Hal's show is about what human beings do to other human beings. The day we went in to record the cast off, because we had the deal, which was exciting, all those people in the recording studio. Ben didn't come.

[31:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, no.

[31:23] Larry Grossman: He had a day's shooting on a Jacques Cousteau underwater special. So then... Until that, he came in two or three days later.

[31:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, and recorded his stuff?

[31:32] Larry Grossman: And there was one of those, I don't know whether I should. Well, it happened. So we were in Baltimore. Ben wanted another number in the second act. We wrote a song, and part of Ben's deal was blackmail. He said, I want Bob Fosse to stage it. Have you heard this song?

[31:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I knew that Bob Fosse had staged one number in Grind.

[31:55] Larry Grossman: And Hal and Ellen and I were not allowed in the rehearsal hall. And if you listen to the album, the orchestration, which was done by Gordon Orrell, who was Bob's guy, nothing like the rest. It's contemporary. It's a great orchestration. But if you're playing it, they made a mistake. Why did this thing happen? It was all Ben doing his nickelback, which is what he should have been doing.

[32:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, it seems like an ensemble show.

[32:22] Larry Grossman: It was, it was. I mean, there are so many characters. So the idea that there would just be this one star step out seems a little silly. He had done some great work. And I continued to like him as a performer. And several years later, I had to work with him. It was on a UNICEF special, the Danny Kay Awards for children internationally. And Ben was a featured performer. And he arrived, and he looked, he saw me, and he said, like, can we talk? I said, yeah. So we went way back up stage. And he said, we've got a lot of baggage, don't we? I said, yeah, but baggage is less than it was X years ago.

[33:07] Larry Grossman: Time heals everything. A lot of, he says, I behaved badly. And he said, let's do some good work here. What's fascinating about it is that in that same season, Big River came out, which was also, you know, about racial injustice. But from maybe a more palatable standpoint, it was easier to stomach than Grind. I think Grind was very uncomfortable for people to watch. It's this perfect storm of where we are as a society for what we want to consume. And also, on the creative side, musical theater is such a collaborative art form. And like you said, it is the most collaborative art form. If one person isn't on the same page, it can completely derail the entire project.

[34:04] Stephen Cole: Hi there, this is Stephen Cole. And I saw both A Doll's Life and Grind several times. Grind, I especially remember seeing out of town first, and watching the progression with the changes of the songs, the changes of the book, the changes of the staging, and how much better the show got, even to the fact of the set turning during the opening number when it hit the Mark Hellinger. It was a very exciting show. It had its problems, of course, but I so loved the opening number, the staging of it. The music and lyrics are especially delightful and very hard-hitting in some cases.

[34:40] Glenn Rosenblum: Hello, this is Glenn Rosenblum from Jeffrey Scott Parsons Musical Theater Podcast. First episode of Fiddler on the Roof. I think Larry Grossman is one of the best Broadway composers. He just writes thrilling, thrilling music. He sort of Jerry Herman meets Cantor Ineb meets Sondheim a little bit. Isn't it funny that both Grind and A Doll's Life were both at the Mark Hellinger Theater, which is now a church, I think. It's one of the, oh my God, that theater is gorgeous. Grind was incredible. It had elements of every kind of show you could think of. It had the Hal Prince stamp, for sure. It had a luscious score by Larry Grossman. It had showstoppers. It had ballads. It had old Broadway and new Broadway.

Stubby K, old Broadway, right? New-ish Broadway. Ben Vereen was a big star already. Then it had Leilani Jones. Where on earth did Leilani Jones come from? But she got the leading woman's role and won the Tony Award. One of the great songs that I love in Grind is All Things to One Man. I think that's, yes, I'll be all things to one man. I told Larry Grossman when I met him that that was one of my favorite musical theater songs that I sang all the time in the car. I think I scared him a little. And the set was enormous. It was a huge show. Many times, even today, I leave the theater and I say, there's a good show in there. There's a good show in there for Grind. There really is. There's too much delicious stuff.

But what I mostly remember about it is that score and the opening number, This Must Be the Place. That is one of the most thrilling opening numbers for a Broadway musical. I dare you to not listen to it over and over and over again, if you can find the album. And that's what I remember about Grind.

[37:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think how I want to end today is your feelings about musical theater in general. What has it taught you? What do you like about it? What do you love about it?

[37:17] Larry Grossman: I love the writing process. That's the best part. And I love that when it gets on a stage, it's different every night. No, it's the fact that it's alive. It can be good or it can be terrible, but it's alive.

[37:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, you came into the Broadway club at a very interesting time. 1970 was right at the end of the golden age, as we know it.

[37:43] Larry Grossman: A few years too late in the golden age. Yeah, I think a couple of years earlier, many sports would have been hit.

[37:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All right. So I went and got your Showtunes book on your shelf. It's by your one, two, three, four, five, six Emmy awards. Okay. And here is the table of content. We got, you know, your Jerome Kern, your Irving Berlin, your George Gershwin. And oh, look right there. There's Mr. Larry Grossman right in between Stephen Schwartz and Mitch Lee. I just thought it was an honor.

[38:20] Larry Grossman: That's pretty dang awesome. That's got to make you feel good.

[38:26] Larry Grossman: Yes. That regardless of how long it runs or what even the audience or critics say, the thing that nobody can take away from you is that creative process.

[38:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, Larry Grossman, it has been a true honor for me. I mean, you're in the book, but I'm the one...

[38:42] Larry Grossman: It was great to kind of be able to call on all those experiences and not regurgitate, but you know what I mean, but be able to spill them out.

[38:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you again.

[38:57] Larry Grossman: My pleasure. Thank you for your contributions to musical theater. And everybody out there, go out and check out Larry Grossman and all of the cast albums that do exist because you'll discover some great stuff. As always, if you want to request a specific show that we cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast@gmail.com. And don't forget to follow us on Twitter and Instagram at A Musical Podcast for more great content. Thanks so much, everybody. And Larry Grossman, see you on the boards.