This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's such a weird thing to say that it's one of my favorite moments of the show because it is, I guess just as an actor it gives me a chance to actually like fix my posture for like three minutes of the show because I'm living in like such a hunched over place that like for like three minutes I get to like roll my shoulders back and be and like as awful as it is like it's actually really nice.

[0:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff.

[0:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Today we are discussing the musical Parade, which has been a listener request for many of you for quite a while, including both Sammy and Sophie. Sammy wrote in saying, quote, If you ever want to do a parade episode, I actually wrote my final paper in undergrad about the Leo Frank trial. I'd love for it to actually go to use, lol. Unquote. She then sent it to me. It's 22 pages long. And guess what, Sammy? I read it. And I have some notes. No, I'm kidding.

[1:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It was actually really super helpful and it's going to find its way into this episode beginning now. Sammy wrote this great introduction and I thought it was the perfect way to begin the episode. April 26, 1913, Confederate Memorial Day. All of Atlanta seemed to have turned up to both celebrate and mourn the quote unquote lost cause.

[1:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Among them was 13 year old Mary Fagan. That morning, Mary left her home to see the parade with her friends. First, she had to stop at the National Pencil Factory to receive her paycheck. She went into the office of the superintendent, Leo Frank, who was there catching up on some bookkeeping. Neither knew that in a matter of minutes, Mary would be dead. The next morning, her mutilated body was found in the basement and what followed was one of the most public trials in American history.

[2:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So this is the basis of the musical Parade and here to talk with me about it is the person playing Leo Frank in the current national tour of Parade. He also performed the role on Broadway as Ben Platt's understudy. Other Broadway credits include Sunday in the Park with George and Bright Star. My gosh, now that I'm looking at it, you've got some serious material in your Broadway credits there, buddy. Everyone, please welcome the wonderful Max Chernin. Yay.

[2:39] Max Chernin: Hello, Max. Thank you for being here.

[2:41] Max Chernin: Thanks for having me. I need to start by telling you a story. I've seen Parade once. It was not your production, but it's one of the only times I remember leaving the theater feeling terrible.

[2:56] Max Chernin: Sure.

[3:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But then again, how do you make sure that you don't feel like the world sucks constantly?

[3:33] Max Chernin: That's a great question because it certainly does.

[3:37] Max Chernin: I feel like we all kind of would relate on some level.

[3:41] Max Chernin: Yeah. I mean, I can't sit here and say it doesn't affect me at all. There are certainly days and times where it hits me in unexpected ways, maybe just having to do with how I'm walking through the world that day as me, as Max.

[3:58] Max Chernin: Sure.

[4:19] Max Chernin: So, I'm trying to be better about doing less and exerting my body less and doing things in like a yoga meditation world as opposed to like waking up and trying to see everything I can see in these cities that we're traveling to.

[4:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[4:36] Max Chernin: Sure.

[4:37] Max Chernin: Yeah. Or like pumping iron or whatever. But we were really fortunate in this show to have someone from City Center, from its inception in City Center. Her name is Anne James. She is an intimacy coordinator, but for our show, she was also hired as a sensitivity specialist.

[4:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Whoa.

[4:57] Max Chernin: She helped all of us unpack the themes of this show. And she was a person unrelated to the job of it all. You know what I mean?

[5:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. Mm-hmm.

[5:09] Max Chernin: So, it removed that sense of needing to appease or appeal some kind of person in power in a rehearsal space. Because that's not to say that Michael Arden was a presence that demanded that.

[5:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[5:26] Max Chernin: But to have someone removed from a casting room type person.

[5:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Just the pressure. There's a natural pressure with the creative team.

[5:35] Max Chernin: Totally. Someone who's there to just focus on that, who isn't like someone that can give you that. I mean, she certainly could help facilitate jobs in the future, but removing that out of it allowed us to spend time with her and really unpack it in a way that was healthy.

[5:51] Max Chernin: And she offered her two cents about de-rolling. So, like, stepping out of the character.

[5:58] Max Chernin: Absolutely.

[5:59] Max Chernin: And for each person, that means something completely different. A lot of people are fine and don't need a routine. Some people tie it to something somatic like a breathing exercise.

[6:11] Max Chernin: But what stuck with me is Anne recommended finding something to stimulate your senses after the show. Something to smell, something to eat, something to listen to, something to see, something to touch.

[6:23] Max Chernin: And so that really stuck with me. And so I kind of de-roll when my character wears a wedding ring and glasses.

[6:31] Max Chernin: So when I like pop those off and put them on my dressing station, it's like I'm letting it go. And I try to like turn on a little music and eat a little something. Yeah, it's kind of like you put on your street clothes and you walk out the door.

[6:46] Max Chernin: And pretend that you didn't just get lynched.

[6:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. But yeah, you know, we're 150 shows in. So it's like my body knows when it's done.

[6:57] Max Chernin: That's awesome.

[6:58] Max Chernin: And the bows are like our first kind of step out of it. So, you know, like the lights that the show ends and, you know, you'll see in our production, we have like some information that we deliver to the audience.

[7:13] Max Chernin: And it's kind of just like, much like you said, you left the theater feeling that way that you did. That's kind of the general consensus among the audience. And then we get to release and we get to receive energy back from the people we've kind of shoved our story on.

[7:28] Max Chernin: So that's the long short about how I'm keeping it together.

[7:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think it's inspiring for everybody to hear because a few years ago I was on Maui and I was asked to do a little like workshop with the Maui Police Department. And it was about this very thing, which is like how, especially on an island, because everybody's related to everybody.

[7:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And how do you go and arrest your cousin and then still show up to the carport and have, you know, lunch and everything.

[8:01] Max Chernin: It's complex. So the idea was like, how do you step into character? How do you get out of character? And I was really pleased that they were willing to take such a creative look at it. I don't know if it helped at all.

[8:11] Max Chernin: But there are so many jobs and roles that we play in society that can benefit from this type of ritual that helps not only us, but the people that we then interact with following our jobs.

[8:29] Max Chernin: So I don't think it's just an actor thing. I think it's an important skill to cultivate.

[8:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So you said that the tour now is 150 shows old?

[8:39] Max Chernin: The tour is almost at 150 shows. Yeah, we will be the longest running production of Parade ever in like a couple weeks because I think Broadway was somewhere around like 160.

[8:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, I thought it was even less. I thought it was like 80 or something like that.

[8:57] Max Chernin: Oh, the revival.

[8:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, the revival. My bad, my bad.

[9:01] Max Chernin: But yeah, our music supervisor, Tom Murray, told us that we will be the longest running production of Parade by the end of our run.

[9:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's incredible. There's so much to unpack there. So then you've been with the tour. You were with Broadway. Did you do City Center as well?

[9:17] Max Chernin: I did.

[9:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So then how long have you been with Parade?

[9:20] Max Chernin: I guess on and off since the fall of 2022.

[9:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay.

[9:26] Max Chernin: Yeah. I mean, there was a year off between Broadway and the tour.

[9:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure, sure.

[9:31] Max Chernin: Yeah.

[9:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. And what was going on in your life? I mean, at this point, we're coming out of the pandemic.

[9:38] Max Chernin: Yeah. So I didn't know where things were going for me in my career. And I teach. So I started putting a lot of energy towards that. And in the fall of 2022, I got my first big university gig.

[9:55] Max Chernin: I was adjunct professor of musical theater at Marymount Manhattan College. And I was teaching musical theater scene study to the juniors. And I got the Parade concert. And I had to take three weeks off to do that. And my students were like, so excited. And the faculty was super excited to, you know, it was cool to be in an environment where people were like, yeah, cool.

[10:19] Max Chernin: And I had done City Center before I did. That's actually where Sunday in the Park was before it went to Broadway. And I also did this weird encores called the Golden Apple.

[10:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Come on, Golden Apple.

[10:31] Max Chernin: We can talk about sometime.

[10:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[10:33] Max Chernin: And so I was super excited to get back to City Center. It's such an amazing, amazing institution. And then to be met with Michael Arden and his team and his style and energy of collaborating and building a piece, even in the structure of the 10 days we literally have to do City Center.

[10:58] Max Chernin: Yeah, it's like Broadway summer stock. And so even in that time, like he always managed to carve out space for us to just like sit and talk and like, hold space for each other and acknowledge the work that we were doing. And I was just in heaven. That was like my first big thing.

[11:17] Max Chernin: Post pandemic, I like got flown out to do a production of Elf in Utah, where we were like masked the whole time.

[11:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: At Pioneer?

[11:28] Max Chernin: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. At Pioneer. And then I did a concert in a tent in the parking lot of Goodspeed.

[11:38] Max Chernin: Oh my gosh, the times. The times!

[11:41] Max Chernin: And so this was an amazing, I was like, this is really cool. This is my first thing back on a New York stage. And it just couldn't have been cooler, honestly.

[11:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's a really cool story, the whole creation of Parade and how it has aged and how in many ways, like the fact that you guys are going to soon have the longest running production of Parade, I think speaks volumes about how the show has aged. I guess that's how I would characterize it.

[12:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So you got to start out with one of the kings of Broadway, maybe the prince of Broadway, Harold Prince, right? At this point, when Parade comes out, he's toward the end of his career, but he still is a giant and a titan of Broadway musical theater.

[12:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He and Alfred Uhry, who is a famous playwright, best maybe known for Driving Miss Daisy, but also the Last Night at Valley Hoo, are wanting to collaborate on a project.

[12:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Alfred Uhry is a Jewish Southerner, right? He comes from this place. This is what he writes about, both in Driving Miss Daisy and Last Night at Valley Hoo. So there's an innate interest and personal connection to all of this.

[13:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: On top of all of that, his, was it grandpa, owned the pencil factory that Leo Frank worked at? Something like that?

[13:12] Max Chernin: Family adjacent, yes.

[13:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Family adjacent. And then his grandma's brother-in-law's sister's aunt, somebody was friends with Lucille Frank. This is lore that has gone through his family for quite some time.

[13:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So he and Harold Prince decide, okay, we want to write a musical about the Leo Frank trial. They reach out to Stephen Sondheim, because duh, and Sondheim says, pass. I just got done doing Passion. I can't do another dark musical.

[13:42] Max Chernin: No more dark-sided stuff.

[13:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. And so he, instead he spent 10 years on Roadshow, which by the way, have you done? You'd be great in that show.

[13:50] Max Chernin: Who's doing Roadshow?

[13:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I don't know. Who was doing Parade up until a few years ago?

[13:56] Max Chernin: Correct. Correct. Correct. Yeah.

[13:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Anyway, you'd be great in it. So then next comes Jason Robert Brown. And that is because if you remember everyone from our last five years episode,

[14:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Number one collaborator for a great majority of his early career was Daisy Prince, who just so happens to be Hal Prince's daughter. So they had worked together on Songs for a New World. She's like, hey, dad, check out this guy. He's really talented. Jason Robert Brown writes essentially a full score to Parade. He was just supposed to write a couple songs, and it all just comes spilling out of him, and it feels like a perfect match. So they go through with it. The show goes through some workshops, but then opens in Lincoln Center for the 1999 Broadway season. In addition to having the producers from Lincoln Center, the whole thing is being bankrolled by Livent. Now, do you know this whole story about Livent?

[14:55] Max Chernin: I don't actually.

[14:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. So Livent was a Canadian producing sort of entity run by Garth Stravinsky.

[15:03] Max Chernin: Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, right, right, right. Yeah. Yikes.

[15:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And to be fair, let's call the shots, they have produced some of the most ambitious American musical theater in the 20th century.

[15:16] Max Chernin: Yeah, they love American trauma, it seems.

[15:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. The revival of Show Boat, Ragtime, Parade, and oh, and then even Kiss of the Spider Woman. They were really doing some really challenging material. Now, if anybody remembers what happened to Paradise Square a couple of seasons ago on Broadway, that's basically what happened to Parade. Parade opened, Livent goes bankrupt right in the middle of it all. That plus the fact that Parade received a really negative review in the New York Times. The show closes after maybe 80 performances, to the point that they didn't even think they were going to be able to make the cast recording. But then Lincoln Center gets some donors and honestly, almost like a backing audition, gets a bunch of people to fund the cast recording.

It gets recorded and distributed before Tony nominations even come out. So even though Parade was 100% a Broadway flop, it ends up winning Best Book and Best Score at the 1999 Tony Awards. In many ways, it's because I think of that cast recording getting preserved and then passed around for everyone to remember how incredible this show is.

[16:35] Max Chernin: I'm trying to think in my mind, has there ever been a show to win Best Book and Best Score and have a shorter run? I honestly can't think of it because there are certainly shows like Newsies and Aida and Urinetown and Falsettos that have won that award and didn't win Best Musical, but they were hits. So I can't think of another one, truly. But that is where Parade was supposed to die. Now, I don't know if you ever feel like this, but I feel like theater lovers are always just two beats away from all being hoarders. I have to constantly fight that in my life because we collect cast albums and we collect playbills and we have all of our posters from all of the shows that we've been to or seen or done, and then a t-shirt for it as well.

What do we do with all of this crap? But then every once in a while, you keep a copy of Show Music Magazine from 1999 that's all about Parade, and I'm like, gosh dang it, I'm so glad I did because it's this great edition of this old canceled magazine that has the entire script, all of the original production photos, and a huge story about Alfred Urie and Jason Robert Brown. So in preparation for the show, I read the script. I went through the score again, but from your cast recording, which has some changes that I'd love to hear about, but it's fascinating that as the cover of this magazine says that Parade has marched on in such a unique way. Why do you think it has aged so well?

[18:23] Max Chernin: Well, Alfred and Jason spoke on it a little bit, and when they wrote it in 98-99, they intended it to be a piece of history, a historical piece. And I think that's what it felt like then. And when you dig it up now, and you're watching it, and everything is happening around you, it just feels like a mirror to the world. And I think the biggest leap since the 90s till now is the introduction of social media, and how we are getting our news. Because that seed within our show, how propaganda and how fake news feeds into groupthink, and into public discourse, and public discourse, and discourse abuse sounds so civilized.

[19:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, and so I think that's why when you're watching and consuming Parade now, you're just like, this is not exactly what's happening around me. And I think it's reverberating in a way that we're looking at a mirror of our past, but it feels like we're looking right at ourselves right now. And then, you know, the second piece on top of just like a broad wash on that is what we're unpacking at the intersection of anti-Semitism and racism within our show, and how, you know, that's not to say that like, things weren't bad in the late 90s, but like, things are bad now. And also in the same vein of social media and news, things are covered and shown to us immediately. The immediacy of an anti-Semitic event or a huge riot or something is right in our face the minute it's happening.

So we're just like, consuming, consuming, consuming, consuming. So it's like, I'm trying to be like, imagine a time where like, I guess, 98 was probably dial-up internet still, maybe? Is that when that was happening?

[20:33] Max Chernin: Yeah, that was like, AOL, you know, no social media and people still reading show music magazine and things like that, you know? So that's kind of my take on why it's slapping right now.

[20:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I totally think you're right, because when the show came out, it's not like anti-Semitism didn't exist. Like, I'm not going to be so ignorant as to believe that. But at the same time, I didn't hear about any protests happening outside of Lincoln Center when they opened. And yet, when you guys did, there was a small group that felt empowered enough to show up and think, you know what I should do? I should scream about this outside the theater. And how did that even get on their radar? Hello?

[21:20] Max Chernin: Exactly, exactly. Because there's, and we can get into this whenever you want, but there are alt-right folks that are committed to making sure that people know that Leo did this. And they are Mary Fagan truthers who may hunt down this podcast and have things to say, too.

[21:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Look, they have a lot of catching up to do. We're a good 150 episodes in, and I'm sure they'll have a lot of opinions. But no, I mean, you're absolutely right. One of the reasons I wanted to do this episode now, because like I said, it has been on the radar for our listeners and on my listener request list for quite some time. But like, what I've been seeing as expressions of anti-Semitism justified for whatever reason, and then magnified by people in power to stay in power has been so upsetting to me that I was like, can we please do an episode that's actually about anti-Semitism and not just pretending in order to control higher education? I know that I try to not be political, so I guess I'm talking a little bit in the shadows.

But like, that's what's been in my heart going into this episode. And I think that there is a very simplistic view of this musical where you can go, oh, this is a show about how the South was actually more anti-Semitic than it was even racist to Black people. And I think that that's very simplistic and wrong. And when you look at Parade and when you go into what details are in its narrative structure and construction, you realize the nuance and complex sort of themes that you guys are exploring every night.

[23:09] Max Chernin: Oh, yeah. It's so complex, everything that was happening in the South. Yeah.

[23:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So I'd love to get in it with you, because to talk about the context, you just kind of have to go through the show. The show, first of all, the score is phenomenal. And when you go back and read Ben Brantley's review about how Jason Robert Brown is OK, but his lyrics aren't great. And you're like, what is anyone talking about? This is just insane. It starts with the old Red Hills of Home. Now, why do you think that the show begins this way? It doesn't begin with Leo. It doesn't begin with Lucille.

[23:46] Max Chernin: It's a prologue. It's a prologue. Can you imagine a world where we still do prologues? I mean, what I do love about the form of Parade is it was born. Hal was there crafting this. He said, let's do a prologue. We're being reminded about a little, we're getting like a little refresher on history about what it means to be Southern after the Civil War. Like before, during and after the Civil War. So we're just giving you a little refresher on the Civil War. And so I think it's important to see that narrative play out a little bit and then to see the town celebrating Confederate Memorial Day. And what a wild thing to view nowadays. I grew up in Ohio, and it didn't even cross my mind that that's something that people would still, that that's something that like someone ever celebrated was the Confederate Memorial Day. But here's the state of the South post-Civil War. They are hurting. They are completely like, Atlanta is devastated.

[25:06] Max Chernin: Yeah, the economy is devastated.

[25:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The economy has tanked, devastated. There's so much poverty across the board. Doesn't matter, black, white, that community is hurting so bad that like, they are rallying together to remember what little they had left. And that was like, the heroes of the Confederacy and their, you know, their fallen war heroes and all the veterans that were still there that fought for this cause that they believed in so much, which was in their eyes, their way of life, their way of life, and their and their way of making money, their way of surviving. And, and then on top of that, all of a sudden, like, there are folks of color among them that are now, you know, this, this isn't like the day after the Civil War, but this is like 1910.

So they are 50 years, you know, it's not good, you know, this is, this is Jim Crow era. And that's not good at all, either. And there's, you know, violent, violent acts being committed against that community. But where Leo comes in to play is kind of like this classic view of, you know, the rich intellectual northerner, industrialists, industrialists coming in to take advantage of cheap labor in the South to make money.

[26:31] Max Chernin: Yeah. And, and to employ children, children, right. And an opportunist, if you will. So there, there in lines lies the story. So, so back to your question. No, I do think, you know, Old Road and Hills of Home is just like, hey, remember this part of American history? Like this happened? Okay, we're dropping you right in. And for us, there's a lot of visual elements, such as the Confederate flag, you know, and just to remind you that that was our country at one point in time. And I would say that the lush melodies of Old Road and Hills of Home helped me not to judge it quite so harshly.

[27:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is really important. I think the beauty of this music keeps me from immediately going into my northerner vilify the South mindset.

[27:14] Max Chernin: One hundred percent. These are people who love their home. Yeah. They love living there. They love their grandparents and their grandparents and, you know, generations and are proud of where they come from and are expressing it in the way that they know how. And it feels earnest and earned.

[27:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: One hundred percent. Yeah. So I appreciate that. I appreciate that from the get, we're like, this is the South and these people love it.

[27:45] Max Chernin: Yeah. And try not to hate them for it. One hundred percent.

[27:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. What's funny is that right after that, we meet Leo, who kind of does hate them for it. First of all, can you tell me about Leo Frank the way that you understand him to be?

[27:57] Max Chernin: He is a complex fellow. He's such a complex fellow. He's so. Oh, I just like any time I think about him and I see pictures of him, I just want to like give him the biggest hug ever, because I think they're there. He's such a complex. There's so much going on for him at that time. So Leo moved down there.

[28:16] Max Chernin: Kind of a semi-arranged marriage with Lucille. He had been there for about four years prior to, you know, the events of the Mary Fagan murder, but prior to that, he went to Cornell. He went to Pratt. He was like a very smart, learned man who was deeply entrenched in, like, the Jewish American community in Brooklyn, which, if you think about, you know, my idea of, I lived in Brooklyn. I actually got to, like, walk around and see some of the places he lived, which was incredible. But, you know, you think about the immediacy of community there, the melting pot of, you know, of our country in a place like Brooklyn and in New York. You think about, I don't know, just what people were gathering to do at dinner tables and out on the street and out in parks and things like that.

And you think about plucking him from that world, throwing him down south, where, especially in the Jewish community there, they were trying to assimilate as much as they could into Southern culture, because they wanted to coexist. And they ended up kind of having their own micro-community within Atlanta, where they had their, like, fancy supper clubs and their gathering spaces together. But what an interesting fact about that community, they moved shul, Saturday. I'm half Jewish. So they moved the Saturday services to Sunday, so that they looked like they were getting up and going to their place of worship on Sunday. And they got rid of a lot of traditions. This rabbi was a radical.

[29:57] Max Chernin: I was going to say. Yeah, this rabbi really was. There was a lot of rhetoric around, like, whether, you know, he was a heretic, essentially. When people came to temple, he was wearing a business suit. He was not wearing the rabbinical garb. And I think for a period of time, they were not doing bar and bat mitzvahs, because they were just trying to keep it as, like, low-key as possible, so that they just fit in more. And Alfred Urey's play, Last Night of Ballyhoo, is basically about all of this. It's about Jewish girls essentially going to a debutante ball, like, you know, the tradition of coming out as a young woman in the South. And yet, like, they're still Jewish, and it should be a bat mitzvah, but it's not. You know, like, it's all of those sorts of things. So anyway, sorry, keep going.

[30:44] Max Chernin: No, so it's like, you put Leo among all of that, and he's like, what? Why are we? Like, why aren't we? I'm sorry, like, why aren't we doing? Why aren't we Jewish? Why aren't we Jewish? And, like, who cares about fitting into this culture that, like, is still feeling a certain way about us, and about Black people, and about, you know what I mean? It's like, what for, really, at the end of the day? So I think a lot about what he must have been struggling with internally, in terms of just, like, pressure from his family, probably, to get married and have kids and settle down and have a good career. Because at this point, you said, had he and Lucille been together a few years, right?

[31:26] Max Chernin: Four years. Four years, and no children. No children, and... I think by choice, because, well, at least the musical tries to make the point that he wanted to make sure that they were fiscally ready to have a child. Yeah. And whether or not, yeah, yeah. And whether or not that's, like, exactly the reason, I'm not 100% sure. But, you know, he's... I read a little bit of this giant nonfiction book called And the Dead Shall Rise. And Leo was a numbers guy. Leo was math, science, that side of the brain, which is so funny to enter as an actor, because we're all, you know what I mean? We're so physical.

[32:06] Max Chernin: Right. But his... It's Hard to Speak My Heart is my moment in the trial. And that moment in real life was Leo telling the jury and the courtroom about how complex his job was in terms of what kind of math he was doing. That's all he could get out. That's all he could get out. And he was so anxious, and there's so much written about his anxiety manifesting itself physically. And I just... It just breaks my heart, like, you know, him just trying to circumnavigate how to even begin to relate to these people that he had nothing in common with, and that had no idea how challenging his job was, because I think he was, like, doing 10 people's jobs, you know, balancing books, making sure that everything was running smoothly within this pencil factory. Because once again, like, these factories were not what the South was known for.

[33:11] Max Chernin: No, no. So I just, like, my image of him... Alfred is a gift to the world, and to theatre, and to an actor. Because if I didn't have the second act journey for Leo, where some of that anxiety, at least for me, physically melts away a little bit, and there's more humanity, I don't think... I actually don't think I'd be in an okay mental place. Every night. Because it is just, like, the tension in the first half of the show is heavy.

[33:52] Max Chernin: I want to read a couple of the lyrics from How Can I Call This Home? It's like a foreign land. I didn't understand that being Southern's not just being in the South. When I look out on all this, how can I call this home? It's all of that that you say. And then right after that, he says that these men belong in zoos. And when I was going through the show this time, one thing that really stuck out to me was... How do I say? I don't even know how to say this. So I guess I'm just going to say it. If there is a sense of elitism that we get as liberals, where we're calling... where we're dehumanizing people and calling them animals, or saying they belong in zoos, or calling them dumb or ignorant, the only thing it does is make that geographical place less safe for the Leos and Lucilles that actually live there.

And I wonder how much of that Leo had encountered before he moved to the South. That, like, Southerners are filled with this and that and the other. Because as someone who grew up in a small town, left that small town essentially as soon as I could, and went to Los Angeles. And since then, every time I find myself back into a small town, I have to actively stop myself. And sometimes I am stopped by other people. I have to actively stop myself from being like, oh, I'm going to teach them a thing or two of what I've learned in the big city. I have to re-enter their space with a sense of curiosity to wonder what they're going to teach me, and hope that that allows what I have encountered to be introduced into theirs.

And I know that that may feel one-sided, and it may feel like I'm putting too much pressure on myself. But elitism is not a mission statement. And it is not a way to connect to people, especially the ones we disagree with. And I wonder if Leo had had even just a sense of curiosity about, Lucille, tell me why you love living here so that I can, because right now I don't see it. Like, would that have helped at all? You know, could have, should have, would have. Like, there are so many things in the story. But that is one thing that popped out to me this time. I'm sure he heard it, but his role in their lives was, you know, dictated by society. So her sense of the South could be romanticized because she didn't work.

She didn't have to go out into, you know, that kind of world. She had her community amongst women. She had her community amongst the temple. You know, she was busy. She was a busy socialite. So like, that was super dreamy. But Leo kind of had this thing he had to go visit every day that I think really kind of wore down on him. And I do think you're right that the economic pressure of making this business work in a place where there are no support systems for industrialism, I'm sure took a toll on him being able to feel like part of the community as well.

[37:12] Max Chernin: Yeah. So after we meet Leo, and we see that he's just basically owned by his job, like you said, it's Memorial Day, it's Confederacy Memorial Day. And Mary Fagan, this young girl who wants to get her pay comes into his office. And then the next thing we learn, she has been brutally murdered in the factory. Now, this brings up the other really rough thing about this time is that child labor was 100% a thing. It was a hot button topic at the time. And a lot of people thought, rightfully so, that 13 year olds shouldn't be working in factory jobs. And yet, there hadn't been any meaningful legislation passed to make anything different. So people are already upset that children are working. And then this happens.

And it happens at the factory that Leo Frank is running. And you know, it's just like thing after thing after thing that turns this whole thing into a perfect storm of hate and a hot topic, which is why then the media get involved. Now in the musical, what's the reporter guy's name?

[38:30] Max Chernin: Britt Craig. Yes. Originally, on Broadway, he had been kind of like a drunk that was an unsuccessful reporter. And then this story breaks and he has, like, finally, I have my big story. Now, that's kind of all been stripped away, right?

[38:49] Max Chernin: It's there a little bit.

[38:50] Max Chernin: Is it there? There's a seed of that. Yeah, yeah. So what is the media's role in all of this mess?

[38:56] Max Chernin: Sure. So this, I think, was the was like, right around the birth of like, Hearst Media, when like, the idea of like, making a shit ton of money off of sorry, can I swear on this? When the idea of making a lot of money off of headlines, was like was popping up. So the editors of all these newspapers were like, we want the most like crazy thing we can get on the cover. And so this, this was just like, everyone was reading this, there were multiple editions a day coming out, like, you know, morning, extra morning, afternoon, like mid afternoon, evening edition, you know, and that's to me, that's the parallel to social media. And, you know, that's...

[39:39] Max Chernin: And cable news that predated it.

[39:41] Max Chernin: 100%. So that's, you know, they, this was just like a gripping story across the whole country and the world, I imagine, you know, trying to find out what happened. And there were new developments every day, and more people were coming out. And...

[39:54] Max Chernin: Isn't it crazy that like real crime existed before podcasting? I think that we think that this is a new, like a new trend, but no, people have always been obsessed with this stuff.

[40:05] Max Chernin: Right, right. So it's like, yeah, I don't know. It's also interesting. And I don't know how true this is. But in the musical, Craig is always is going around and, and in many ways, capturing the soundbites that are the most inflammatory, which I mean, that you basically just described social media algorithms. So the, the most inflammatory comments are going to be the ones that have the most hate behind them. And you've got a lot of that in the show.

[40:33] Max Chernin: Yeah, yeah. Who is it? It's Watson, right? Watson is the guy who has his antisemitic.

[40:39] Max Chernin: He's like, the alt right? Yeah.

[40:42] Max Chernin: Yeah. So let's talk about then just the the crime in general. What I understand is the factory has two floors. Leo Frank's office is on the second floor.

[40:56] Max Chernin: Yes.

[40:57] Max Chernin: And Mary Fagan's body was found in the basement.

[41:01] Max Chernin: Correct.

[41:02] Max Chernin: So the idea that the prosecution tries to put out there is that Leo Frank tried to sexually attack Mary Fagan. She said no. And in retaliation, he beats her and kills her and even rapes her, leaving her body for dead in the basement. Now, when Leo is arrested, he shows that like, there's not a scratch on him. There are no markings on his body. There's no good reason for anyone to think that he has been through some sort of physical altercation. That doesn't matter. He's still essentially the one and only suspect, I guess.

[41:43] Max Chernin: There's no real physical evidence.

[41:45] Max Chernin: Right. Yeah. At the very beginning, they're holding on to this gem of information that like he slept through a phone call.

[41:52] Max Chernin: Oh, I haven't heard.

[41:53] Max Chernin: There was one phone call that made it made its way to the house that like they didn't pick up an answer. And it must have been like, I can't remember exactly the time, but like three, four or five in the morning type situation. And it was missed somehow or like someone in the house answered it and then hung up. So they're holding on. That was what they were holding on to a lot in the beginning.

[42:14] Max Chernin: Interesting. So then after a while, they start finding other quote unquote witnesses, but they're more just like character witnesses saying how Leo was.

[42:25] Max Chernin: The job and was often making eyes and making the girls feel uncomfortable or touching them inappropriately. What's your take on all of that? Do you think there's any truth to him being slightly inappropriate at the workplace? I have a really hot take.

[42:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Please.

[42:48] Max Chernin: I think Leo might have been neurodiverse. Oh. I think that's a look. And I think he's at his death trial and he's talking about numbers. I think a lot of that manifested in some physical quirks for him that I think were perceived in the worst way possible. And I think no one and obviously no one had the way a way of describing that at times. But I think I don't know, maybe I maybe I shouldn't say that, but I don't know. I don't know. Like I was like now that I'm living in it, I'm like, oh, my God, like maybe maybe they didn't understand him because like he just had a brain that was functioning different than beyond like on top of everything, all the other cultural on top of everything, on top of being a northerner, on top of being Jewish, like maybe his body chemistry and his brain chemistry was functioning in a way so different than everyone.

And so like, I think there's that there's that in the place. So that definitely as soon as he got held in in jail, like his anxiety is is rushing and there's all these documentations about how he's playing with his hands and how he's pacing around. You know, to me, that's that reads in that realm. And for someone to ask him to speak on whether he's innocent or not, and for him to start talking about the numbers and intricacies of his job, that to me, that through line, I'm like, wow. So that's been like a light bulb for me. I don't think that's not a playable thing as an actor to do. That's not something I want to bring across in this story. But it's something that I think is possible. And then on top of that, back to your question, I do think this was like people were looking for an opportunity to be in the newspaper.

So like, little Susie wanted to be like, yeah, he looked at me weird, too. And then she gets to be like, I'm in the newspaper today. So I think it's kind of just like, there was just that sensationalism in that moment. Because I'm sure they were just like, yeah, our weird Jewish boss at work. Like, we don't really understand him and he doesn't understand us. So yeah, like he looked at me. Yeah, yeah, that look he gave me was definitely weird. Yeah, he's weird.

[45:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and I think it's something that the musical does so freaking beautifully, which is he calls her name, that whole sequence. These girls are singing something really creepy, really haunting, and word for word, the same. There is this like, hint at they've been coached to say exactly the same thing. But then instead of just letting that be what it is, we then go into a musical fantasy. This is of course, in the trial when these girls are testifying of Leo becoming the person that they are claiming him to be. And he has this whole come up to my office sort of thing. Can you talk about that? Because wow, what an amazing theatrical touch to the whole show.

[45:48] Max Chernin: Yeah, I think it's, it's pretty incredible. It's one of my like, it's such a weird thing to say that it's one of my favorite moments of the show because it is, I guess just as an actor, it gives me a chance to actually like fix my posture for like three minutes of the show. Because I because I'm living in like such a hunched over place that like, for like three minutes, I get to like roll my shoulders back and be and like as awful as it is, like it's actually really nice. Um, I think it is such a fucking awesome, sorry, I think it is such a great way to represent how extreme it got. How in our musical world he's being painted as like a spooky, creepy, like song and dance man, who's trying to get at little girls.

And I think it's the way I mean, I'm obsessed with our choreographers and the way that they set this and I don't want to give too much away before you see it. But like, I'm essentially like spinning in and out of my costume. And like, the biggest the biggest when I when I think about this moment, the biggest word I think about is duration, the duration of time, because I don't know if you read in your readings on this, that this trial took place over several weeks, months. And so, you know, these testimonies kept happening and happening. And so in our moment, it's kind of like freeze frame, like, there's this movement that's happening. And within this freeze frame is also this extrapolation of who they think Leo is.

And so it's like time slows, ideas crack open, and this person emerges, that like is what everyone thinks. And then the minute it's done, we're snapped back to reality. We're in this different lighting cue. He's back in his costume. Everyone's back to like, where they were before. So they're using the event of this trial and the event of these moments to represent how wild this got for everyone. It's really special. And both the contrast of, is this really who you think this guy is?

[48:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, exactly. And that's a very interesting point, because you should feel uncomfortable in the show. You should feel like I'm not 100% sure he's really innocent. Because I look so convincing. Because I move so creepily in this number. Oh God, I'm only good at it, only now. It took me a long time to nail down those moves, but yeah. But it is interesting, because you see the contrast in who we think we know he is, who people are claiming he is, wondering if it's like somewhere in the middle, trying to believe women and children when they're talking about their abuse, and then also trying to negotiate the corruption that might be in the prosecution. It's so complex. The other little complexity that came out for me this time going through that is 13-year-olds in essentially an adult atmosphere, work environment, of course they might interpret things weirdly. Like they shouldn't be there.

[49:10] Max Chernin: Yeah, good point. They literally shouldn't be there. So if their boss seems creepy, he probably should. Because guess what, you shouldn't be having a boss. You're 13. Turns out.

[49:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's my hot take. 13-year-olds shouldn't be in a boss.

[49:27] Max Chernin: Wow, that's a real hot take.

[49:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah. Look out everyone, I got more. No, I'm just kidding. But yeah, so all of these things swirling around. First act ends. Oh no, we got to talk about the Jim Conley of it all. So historically speaking, a lot of scholars think that the person who did kill Mary Fagan was essentially the janitor who worked at the pencil factory, who's named Jim Conley. And what makes things even trickier is that his testimony, like his testimony, was one of the most damning against Leo Frank. Complicating things even more, he was a Black man. And so a lot of scholars at the time were like, how did the racist South not hang the Black man instead of the Jew, the white man? The Jew, the white rich man. And that really is one of the reasons why this particular trial has been talked about so much. Almost like competing racisms.

[50:34] Max Chernin: Look, I don't have a take on this because it's too much. But there are some things that I find really interesting. In the prosecution's arguments, they basically used racism to make sure that Jim Conley wasn't prosecuted. Basically saying a Black man wouldn't be smart enough to do this. There's racism and then there's using racism in so many different ways. I don't even know what to say.

[51:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's all dark. It's all dark sided. It's a very unique moment because they weaponized that in a way that hadn't been seen before. It's a tough thing to try to wrap all of our heads around. But I don't know if you've read some epilogue on all this, but there was a man in the 1980s who came out on his deathbed and said that he saw Jim Conley with the body.

[51:30] Max Chernin: Yeah, his name was Alonzo Mann.

[51:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Really?

[51:35] Max Chernin: Who's actually referenced in the show, Lonnie Mann. Alonzo Mann on his deathbed said, I saw Jim Conley with Murray Feagin's body.

[51:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Was he another worker?

[51:48] Max Chernin: He was a young boy working there, very, very young. He claimed that Jim saw him and he threatened to kill him if he told anyone. He went home and told his mom and his mom said, we can't. We literally don't want to die. You're going to sew this up and never say it again. And that was kind of the seed of information that led to his pardoning by the state of Georgia.

[52:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Interesting.

[52:16] Max Chernin: But he has not been exonerated, which is a whole thing. We can get into that if you want at some point.

[52:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, let's get into it a little bit later. This whole sequence in the musical, He Said No, is another brilliant Jason Robert Brown moment because it's such a crowd pleaser. It's such a showstopper. Of course, the most damning witness would also have the biggest showstopper in the trial.

[52:49] Max Chernin: One thing that I haven't even mentioned is Conley was an escaped convict. He was supposed to be in jail at that point still, right? Anyway, it's crazy. Have you talked to any of your cast brethren who've played Jim Conley? And what's kind of their take on it all?

[53:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's a really good question. It's really precious territory. Because unfortunately, there's a necessity to the roles that our Black company members have to play in this show. But it does not depict their community in a very loving, supported way. And so, there's a lot that they're carrying show to show.

[53:31] Max Chernin: Great point. And so, I haven't really chosen to engage in a conversation like that with Ramon, who's playing it right now. I think we both... I think...

[53:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're both going through it.

[53:44] Max Chernin: Ramon's incredible. I think I kind of don't want to know where he stands with it. Because I think that keeps our relationship as Leo and Jim a little more separate. I don't know. I don't really know.

[54:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's tough.

[54:03] Max Chernin: Yes, we don't really... I love that. I don't know if I've ever heard an answer quite like that. And I thank you for it. I like that. The first act ends with the guilty verdict and a cakewalk to celebrate. It certainly doesn't follow the old adage of a cliffhanger at the end of the first act.

[54:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In many ways, this show could be a one-act and just tell the story.

[54:27] Max Chernin: Oh yeah, we talk about that every night. We're like, can it just be not guilty tonight and I can go home?

[54:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But then you'd miss all the duets.

[54:36] Max Chernin: Sorry, ask that question one more time?

[54:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, no, no. So, I was just saying, it's interesting how we come back from intermission not really knowing what the second act is even going to be. Because it feels like everything was tied up in the first act.

[54:44] Max Chernin: Sure.

[54:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is why a rumbling and a...

[54:52] Max Chernin: A rumbling and a rumbling.

[54:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What's it called?

[54:54] Max Chernin: Rumbling and rolling.

[54:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Rumbling and rolling is such an interesting way to begin the second act. Because I think on some level we're like, where is this going now?

[55:02] Max Chernin: Right.

[55:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Can you kind of pitch that song to everybody so they know what's going on?

[55:06] Max Chernin: So, Rumbling and Rolling is my favorite song in the show.

[55:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Really?

[55:09] Max Chernin: That's cool. Yeah. Oh my god. It's so good. I think it's a great little jump back into the story moment. Because we are seeing two characters that, up until that point, have not had a voice, literally. You have not heard them speak. And they get to sing about their feelings about all this news and all this hubbub about this white man that's going to get hung. Hanged, sorry. This white man that's going to get hanged. And their community saw lynching after lynching after lynching after lynching. And now everyone's all up in arms because of this one situation. And so, it's actually an incredible level set for the audience to receive that information that two years have gone by and he's still waiting to see if he's going to get hanged.

And so, Rumbling and Rolling really just investigates this point of view from the African-American community there, watching all this go down, and how they're continually going to be overlooked and ignored. Which I think is such a smart way to introduce information as opposed to being like, two years have gone by, Leo's still in jail. You know what I mean? We could have another rousing...

[56:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Old Red Hills of Home reprise.

[56:27] Max Chernin: Exactly. But what a cool entre-act to have it be someone else's point of view and still deliver.

[56:33] Max Chernin: What turns the corner for them in terms of her participation in all of this? I don't know how much. I feel like her being hesitant about going to the trial is perhaps a dramatic gem dropped in. She was so steadfast and so strong and stood by his side every single day, brought him meals, was advocating for him in every community she could. I mean, she's a badass. Lucille was a badass who did not take no for an answer, who sacrificed her life and her general well-being to vouch for her husband's character, to get this sentence commuted, to retrace the steps of a bunch of really careless men in a time when she was not considered a worthy voice or a worthy opinion amongst all of these things. So she's the reason why he kept going.

I think she was the reason to live. And we went to the Jewish – well, we went to Atlanta. We went to the Jewish Museum of the South, and we got a chance to read some of their letters back and forth to each other. And there's a bunch online that you can read, too. And it's just so beautiful the way he speaks about her, my sweet Lucille, my darling Lucille. These people loved each other so much. So the structure of them coming together through this is a little bit of a put-on to the story.

[59:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In real life, they were much more unified?

[59:13] Max Chernin: I think so. In real life, they were much more unified. I'm sure they had their ups and downs amongst all of this. We all do. There were moments where they were frustrated at each other, but broadly, to be incarcerated and have someone advocating for you, my gosh, what a gift. Yeah, she really is the hero of Parade, of the story we're telling. In the story, she is able to get some one-on-one time with the governor. It's ultimately him who decides to at least lessen the sentence of Leo's to prison for life instead of being hanged, as you mentioned. And like you said, the second act is filled with all of these amazing duets. It isn't over yet. All the wasted time. Can you tell me about your connection with your co-star at all?

[1:00:07] Max Chernin: With Miss Talia Suskauer? She's incredible, my gosh. She is just an electric, detailed, caring, beautiful scene partner. I'm so lucky to be with her. I'm so lucky to live in this world where we're saying the same, you know, we've been saying the same words, but it continues to feel fresh and like, man, I love singing with her. I think we're kind of a vocal match. Like, we both have pretty big voices. And so it's a pretty big moment when we come together. And these are some of the best duets in musical theater, I think, personally. I think the scene leading up to and all the wasted time, I think are like, maybe perfect. I was reading it this morning. Yeah. I actually think it's like, I think if I were to say, hey, if I was teaching someone how to write a scene into a song, I'd be like, hey, this is perfect.

Read this and study this. So yeah, I get to do some of the best songs and scenes with an incredible performer. She's incredibly giving. And I think we've really grown to love each other. And yeah, it's really been a special, special experience for both of us, I think.

[1:01:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's beautiful. The tragedy of Parade is that just as this beautiful union is happening on stage is the moment that then Mob comes and steals Leo from prison, takes him out and strings him up on a tree. It's absolutely tragic. It's also beautiful that he asks to be covered from the waist down because he still wanted to be modest. He refuses to tell a lie and say that he did it. There are a few members of the group that feel bad, at least. That's how it's dramatized in the script. In real life, this whole thing kind of gave new empowerment to the Ku Klux Klan.

[1:02:16] Max Chernin: Well, it's interesting. After the lynching, two things happened. One, it was the second resurgence of the KKK on Stone Mountain, and the ADL was formed.

[1:02:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's right. Okay, you're right.

[1:02:30] Max Chernin: So these two things happened at the exact same time.

[1:02:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Anti-defamatory, right?

[1:02:35] Max Chernin: Defamation, yeah.

[1:02:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Defamation.

[1:02:38] Max Chernin: This was a turning point on both sides of the coin, and what's devastating to me is that the Jewish community got together after this happened to decide whether or not they were going to try to prosecute these people that lynched him, and they decided not to for their own safety because they feared if they went after them that that would start a war in Atlanta.

[1:03:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's safer to let it go.

[1:03:09] Max Chernin: And so that energy was harnessed. After all that, that energy, I think, really got harnessed into the formation of the ADL, for better or for worse, which is now a point of contention, which I'm happy to fill you in on all of that if you're interested in its current state.

[1:03:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, what's going on?

[1:03:29] Max Chernin: So this is the alt-right take on Leo Frank, is that there's all this rhetoric around the ADL, and once a year the ADL will put out a tweet or some kind of statement about remembering the death of Leo Frank, and there will be people that respond on the internet by saying, how can you celebrate this pedophile? He did this, this, and that. They will go to their grave fighting to say that he really committed this crime. And now a special little bonus is that they're saying, oh, you can't trust the ADL. It was formed to cover up a Jewish man's crime of murdering a young girl, and they tried to pin it on a black man.

[1:04:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, gosh.

[1:04:21] Max Chernin: So all these racist anti-Semite folks are like, you know what? This goes back to what happened at the trial. They're like, you know what? And you know what they also did? They tried to pin it on a black man.

[1:04:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: They're the real racists.

[1:04:33] Max Chernin: They're the real racists. The Jewish people are actually really racist. And someone who has spoken about that is on Twitter, and this popped up, there's some article somewhere about how she tweeted, she's a truther, and she is the speaker of the Pentagon currently. I won't even look up her name, because I shouldn't say it. But there are people high up in our government now that are committed to making sure that whatever truth they believe in is known. But the ADL is and continues to be a very divisive group. And we're just talking about Leo Frank. There's a whole lot of other shit going on, too.

[1:05:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, absolutely, absolutely. It's interesting, because I think what I can walk away with and feel good about is you can justify your hate however you want, with whatever your best intention might be. But if you believe that hate is not helpful, then you have to be willing to turn the eye onto yourself and realize that no matter how justified you think you are, it's not okay.

[1:05:49] Max Chernin: Yeah.

[1:05:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Period.

[1:05:51] Max Chernin: Yeah.

[1:05:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I see so many people justifying their own hate, recently in particular. And sometimes it sounds like they have great reasons. And I promise you, I'm saying this from my stupid little musical theater heart. It's not worth it. We can't move forward with that being the way to get things done. Because these wounds don't heal. These cultural wounds don't heal. We just have to deal with them in different ways.

[1:06:26] Max Chernin: Yeah.

[1:06:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I think that's what I'm coming to terms with myself.

[1:06:31] Max Chernin: Yeah. It's hard to wrap my head around the idea of unity in any way, shape, or form right now. But...

[1:06:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Please.

[1:06:41] Max Chernin: It's my hope. In the press that I'm doing for this, it's like, what do you hope people walk away with by seeing Parade?

[1:06:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Well, that's good. Let us know that. That sounds like a good interviewer asking a good question.

[1:06:58] Max Chernin: Yeah. Well, listen, it is such a gift for, and I'll speak on behalf of our entire company, it's such a gift for us to be the keepers of Leo's story right now. Because so few people know about it. So one, if you walk away learning about this slice of American history, that's a gift. And that's a win for all of us. And that's a win for Leo. May he rest in peace. And then, like you said, you walked away not feeling, that time you saw it, not feeling super great. That's okay. I think we're trying to challenge folks to think about what it means to be a bystander, to think about where they're getting their source of information from, and how you can, and maybe I sound like a Pollyanna, but how you can amidst really a polarizing time, how you can show up for your neighbor in a way that recognizes their humanity. And if we can root back to that, then maybe we can carve ourselves out of this black hole it feels like we're jumping into right now.

[1:08:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that.

[1:08:11] Max Chernin: Well, I'm also a Pisces and both my parents are psychologists. So that's a little background.

[1:08:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Pisces King!

[1:08:20] Max Chernin: Yeah, that's me.

[1:08:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Max, thank you so much for doing this with me.

[1:08:25] Max Chernin: Thanks for having me.

[1:08:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What a total pleasure. As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, just like our friends, Sophie and Sammy, please reach out to us at amusicalpodcast.gmail.com. We'd also love for you to join us on Patreon! For only a few dollars a month, you get access to tiers that include bonus episodes, polls that you can vote on, a little essay that I send out every week. It's a really, really fun time. I love all of my connections on there, even when people disagree with my Tony Award takes. I'm looking at you, Carl, who was very offended about the fact that I was excited Sunset Boulevard won for Best Lighting. Also join us on social media. We have so many things that make this wonderful podcasting community one of my favorite things that I do in my life. I appreciate you all. Hey, Max, thank you again. Can you please tell us how we follow you? And now's your time to plug anything you want.

[1:09:25] Max Chernin: Yeah, you can follow me on the social media at Max Churns. And if you want to come check out Parade, we'll be touring through the first week of September. I think you can find all of the dates on paradebroadway.com. Coming up, we've got L.A., Houston, Chicago, Des Moines, D.C. Oh, wow.

[1:09:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So if any of those cities are your cities, please come out and see us. We would love to see you at the show.

[1:09:56] Max Chernin: Congratulations. Enjoy this powerful piece with audiences. I have no doubt it's a gift for them to experience it with you. Everybody out there, thank you for listening. And remember, don't waste time. Don't waste it. You don't want all the wasted time or the hours, but you do want some pickled watermelon.

[1:10:28] Max Chernin: Thank you.