This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Todd Underwood: I had heard about it, but I didn't know anything about it. And so that one little small performance on the Tonys blew me away because it spoke to me.

[0:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is crazy because we have the exact same experience. The reason I know about this show was because of the Tony Awards, which we can complain about awards season and shows all we want.

[0:26] But the fact is that this was a really crowded season on Broadway. You had In the Heights, Little Mermaid, Xanadu, Young Frankenstein, Cry Baby, Catered Affair, plus the revivals of South Pacific, Sunday in the Park with George, and the Patti LuPone Gypsy.

[0:40] This was a crowded musical theatre year. So it was hard to get noticed. And while the Tonys gave very little love to Mermaids and Frankensteins, they did give some love to Passing Strange.

[0:51] And by the way, incredibly well deserved. It's a brilliant, unique show. So grateful to the Tony Awards. Otherwise, I don't think I would know the show.

[0:59] Todd Underwood: For sure. If they hadn't said this show is worthy of this Tony Award, yeah, I doubt very seriously if it would have even gotten the traction that it has.

[1:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is cool. This is cool. Because then, God bless Spike Lee. So we have film, essentially, to thank for us having this show. Whether it's the televised Tony Awards, or the Spike Lee filmed version of it.

[1:29] Todd Underwood: Well, and you know what, that's how I personally got into and love of theatre is watching them on PBS. Watching Per Lee, watching Into the Woods, watching Sweeney Todd. That's the only way I was able to see anything and recognize what theatre was at that time and point.

[1:53] I'm from a little town in Alabama, and there was little to no theatre.

[1:58] But we got PBS.

[2:01] Todd Underwood: We got PBS. I saw Pippin on PBS. Then every Easter, we saw The Sound of Music. And so these sort of movie musicals also helped to broaden little black gay boy in Alabama horizons. And I still didn't know I wanted to do theatre, but there was something about it that just attracted me.

[2:22] Hallelujah.

[2:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to a musical theatre podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff.

[2:45] Today is dedicated to the musical Passing Strange, and joining me to discuss this fantastic show is someone who, believe it or not, just directed and choreographed it. He's one of the most prolific choreographers in the U.S. Everyone, please welcome Chita Rivera Award winner Todd Underwood.

[3:02] Todd Underwood: Hello, everyone.

[3:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Todd, I'm so excited to be talking to you.

[3:07] Todd Underwood: Thank you very much. I'm excited to be here and share my love of this show and all things theatre.

[3:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hallelujah. I'm going to be saying hallelujah. I think I feel a lot during this episode.

[3:18] Todd Underwood: I'll join you.

[3:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Perfect. Please don't leave me hanging on that. I think one of the reasons I'm so excited is that at this point in time, when theatre is just coming back, to have somebody on the show to talk about this musical who has literally just done it, I feel very, very lucky. Tell me about your production that you just got done setting up.

[3:43] Todd Underwood: So this production was done in Salt Lake City at the Salt Lake Acting Company.

[3:49] They are an amazing theatre company who really are actively trying to change theatre and change what it looks like and what it sounds like and who's involved and who has voice in the theatre. And that is amazing.

[4:08] They've been trying to do this show for a very, very long time. And so I am so proud and honored to be able to helm this production.

[4:19] And for anybody out there who's like, Utah, which y'all know it's my motherland, but why is Passing Strange playing in Utah before my town? It actually has quite an interesting history with the good old Beehive State.

[4:34] Passing Strange is, of course, a show that was written by Stu and his writing partner, Heidi Rotemann.

[4:41] And they had joined, and we can probably go into this a little bit deeper later, but they had created this band that was performing at Joe's Pub in New York.

[4:52] And they have a very theatrical sound, just like the most poetic lyrics you've ever heard from a rock band.

[5:01] And some people from the public, the famous public theatre in New York, peeked their heads in, essentially, and are like, have you ever thought about turning this into a musical?

[5:09] And they said, no. Theatre is terrifying. Why on earth would we do that?

[5:15] And they said, well, lean into that fear and give it a whirl.

[5:19] So that all led to them being invited to the Sundance Institute for three weeks to write and work out the musical.

[5:27] And the Sundance Institute, for those who may not know, is in Utah, along with the Sundance Film Festival.

[5:33] So coming full circle, after Passing Strange premieres on Broadway, gets filmed by Spike Lee, guess where that film premieres?

[5:42] The Sundance Film Festival, also in Utah!

[5:45] So it only makes sense that now we would finally have a live production in good old Salt Lake City.

[5:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And congratulations, Todd, on making that happen.

[5:55] Todd Underwood: Well, thank you very much. You know, it was an incredible experience.

[6:01] I didn't know how Utah was going to, you know, take this musical in. I didn't even know that we could even cast from locals in Utah.

[6:12] I mean, I feel that way sometimes about California. So you can imagine Utah.

[6:19] Yeah, it was a bit of a shock when I spoke to Cynthia. I said, well, you know, I guess we'll do auditions in New York.

[6:26] And she was like, well, you know, we've got a nice BIPOC community of actors here.

[6:32] And I think we should move forward with that. I was like, great. Let's see what's there.

[6:38] See what you got.

[6:40] Todd Underwood: And there was a lot.

[6:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's incredible. That's so exciting.

[6:46] Todd Underwood: So impressed with everyone that came out and we did everything on Zoom, obviously, because we were in the throes of Omicron in the winter of last year.

[6:55] But yeah, I just it really meant that this piece should be in Utah because the talent there really and truly understood the piece and was willing to drive and dive into this piece in a way that I wasn't expecting.

[7:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that makes me so proud.

[7:15] Todd Underwood: Yeah, because to be honest, the most colorful thing about the musical theater scene in Utah tends to be the fact that we produce red and yellow and green and brown and scarlet and black more than any state in the union.

[7:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Grateful to hear that there's some true diversity.

[7:33] Todd Underwood: Yeah, for sure. And the actors that we brought from out of town, they totally melded with the locals.

[7:39] And it just it just became an incredible family working with them over those four weeks of rehearsal, which is also an amazing feat as well.

[7:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. Talk about collaboration. I mean, that's something we talk a lot about on the podcast, how musical theater is truly the most collaborative art form out there.

[7:59] And so I love hearing I love hearing experiences like that. Speaking of collaboration, let's talk about the collaborators who set it up in the first place.

[8:09] Todd Underwood: So Stu, who I already mentioned from Los Angeles. Yeah. And in some ways, this is his story. Passing Strange is a little autobiographical.

[8:22] He also is very upfront in saying that things have been dramatized. I think one of the quotes I heard him say was, if you have a cup of coffee every day, eventually in the story, you're going to have to spill it or else the audience is going to get bored.

[8:40] So things have been explored in that way. He, from what he says, was never a theater fan and not because he looked down on down upon it, which is a really important thing for me.

[8:55] So often with these shows that feel revolutionary, I can often get a sense of cooler than thou. That's how I would probably describe it. And I never get that from him. In all of his interviews, there was nothing but respect, just a lack of exposure to theatre in South Central Los Angeles.

[9:17] His writing partner, Heidi, however, who plays bass and was on stage with him in this band originally, she grew up in a very musical theater family. She said she watched probably too many productions of Fiddler on the Roof because everybody from the family was in one at some point.

[9:42] And yet she was the black sheep who joined a rock band.

[9:42] Todd Underwood: And then even funnier, she's the one who ended up on Broadway. So, you know, go figure. You can't ever you can't ever guess how this is all going to work out when they work together to create the show.

[10:01] They also have another collaborator by the name of Annie. Help me out. What's Annie's last name?

[10:01] Todd Underwood: Dorson.

[10:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Dorson. Thank you. Annie Dorson, who's a really interesting theater director. Do you know what other stuff she's known for?

[10:10] Todd Underwood: I don't. I know that she has her own theater company and she is outside of the box director and really tries to, yeah.

[10:23] She's lately been known as the pioneer in algorithm theater, which is really fascinating. Like you said, she's so experimental, but she'll design theater around algorithms as like a commentary on how our lives are so based on social media algorithms and what we're exposed to is based on tech. Right.

[10:45] And so the theater that she's creating will sometimes be a series of YouTube comments that are then put through an algorithm and spit out in a certain way. And audiences like lay under a plastic tent or something like that while it all happens around them. Like such, such interesting theater.

[11:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[11:06] Todd Underwood: I love that she was the one to direct this because it both feels just right and also feels very fresh.

[11:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I agree. It feels like a piece of art. It feels like a piece of performance art, even the way that the show is crafted, where we jump from moment to moment, the sort of what I call core memories.

[11:32] Todd Underwood: Yes, totally.

[11:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: These things that shaped him or pushed Stu into a direction or a meeting or whatever. It's very smart in that way, and that you don't feel like you're missing anything in between the jumps.

[11:52] Todd Underwood: So true.

[11:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: They've crafted it so beautifully that you just go along for the ride. And that's a hard thing to do.

[12:00] Todd Underwood: You're so right. It's not jarring.

[12:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This show also feels like, and I don't know if this is conscious or if it's just me looking at it from a lens of being obsessed with musical theater, it feels like it ties together a lot of existing things within the art form in a really exciting, beautiful way.

[12:24] Todd Underwood: The score itself, I am often shocked that this music wasn't written in the 70s, in classic rock era. And a lot of the songs give me almost the Who's Tommy type feeling.

[12:40] So you're tying classic rock and also punk rock, gospel, all of these different musical genres with an allegory narrative of old Schmidt and Jones shows, also from the 70s, like The Fantastics or Celebration, some of those more experimental allegory musicals.

[13:02] But then with the self-awareness in terms of presentation of Spring Awakening or Zanier's self-aware comedy that is found in modern musical theater, they are melding all of these together and fusing them in a really cohesive, beautiful way.

[13:20] Todd Underwood: I think, you know, you were talking about collaboration. You know, I think the three of them, Annie, Heidi, and Stu, because they come from such varied backgrounds and varied experiences, it only made sense to try to weave this tapestry of music. And it's used in such an incredible way that it doesn't feel overdone, or too pastiche, or too anything. It is, you know, I keep saying it, it's just, it is, it is created so well.

[14:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: 100%. Couldn't agree more with you. Can you tell we're gushing about the show, everyone? I promise we'll get a little bit, we'll be a little less effusive. But I think, but I just want to say, I think, because we are gushing about it, and we are both different, and we both come from different experiences, that it shows the power of it. Hallelujah.

[14:32] Todd Underwood: Hallelujah. Now, the title, Passing Strange. Can you help us dive into that a little bit? Because I feel like there are several meanings and several interpretations as to why it's called this.

[14:48] Todd Underwood: Yeah, for sure. The terminology of passing, if we think back historically, is this idea of shading yourself to be accepted into a different culture. Back when, in slavery days, and after that point in time, there were a lot of light-skinned people, humans, who could pass for being white. They had the facial structure, the hair texture, the coloring of the skin. And if you did not know that they were biracial, triracial, then you would assume that they were white. And that was a benefit, to be able to go through the world and not be looked upon negatively for the color of your skin. And that is something that is brought up in the show that we think of the terminology of passing as passing for white.

But in this show, the idea is passing for black, and trying to figure out who you are and what your blackness is in the large scale of the monolithic definition of being black. And youth is trying to, in many ways, not only find his real, but also trying to find out what his blackness is, and can he be proud of his blackness? And can he be a different black than the monolithic, and I use that word with lots of fingers, the monolithic of what being black is, and not just in response for white people, but also for black people. You know, we forget sometimes that just because we're part of a group, that we can stand alone and be ourselves and be a part of that group. Right? We don't need to be homogenized, that we are greater when we bring all of our differences together.

[17:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes!

[17:08] Todd Underwood: Yeah. Applauding that one. Hallelujah.

[17:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's, yeah, hallelujah. And this just goes to show the great poetry that's found within the show, because as if that weren't enough, the phrase passing strange is actually found in Othello in Shakespeare. Once again, Othello, the Moor of Venice being an infamously black character in Shakespeare's great play. So, fascinating.

[17:36] Todd Underwood: Yeah. I mean, and the other definition is just passing through life and just not really finding roots or feeling a sense of belonging. Just passing from day to day, from town to town, from country to country, and not feeling secure, not feeling that you can have roots. It's a strange existence to just exist and not live.

[18:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All right. Well, let's go through the show. We're just going to start at the top. In terms of plot, it's pretty simple. It's about the poetry that kind of exists within it. So, if there are any favorite lyrics, any favorite moments that you want to point out, please do so.

[18:29] Todd Underwood: Okay. So, the show begins, and what I think is so interesting is that in the licensed version, and for example, in the version that you did, there is still a character named Stu, even though he is no longer in the show, right?

[18:44] Todd Underwood: Correct. Well, the character's name is Narrator.

[18:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, fair enough.

[18:48] Todd Underwood: And he says in the opening, hey, my name is Stu.

[18:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. So, yeah. Okay, great. Is Heidi still in the band too? Because that's a lyric.

[18:56] Todd Underwood: Well, Heidi is still in the band, but we changed it to Zaza. So, our bassist, their name is Zaza. And we just, as many things as we could make it feel like not a passing strange of Stu and Heidi, but this passing strange of the story of this youth and the narrator and how that happened. So, we took a little bit less in the autobiographical attachment and just stayed with sort of narrator, mother, youth.

[19:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The allegory of it all.

[19:34] Todd Underwood: Correct.

[19:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's great. Okay, so we got this narrator, and he addresses the audience like, get ready, we might be playing all night.

[19:46] Todd Underwood: Yeah, for sure.

[19:48] Todd Underwood: If the spirit moves us, you may be here a while.

[19:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This show sounds like a rock concert, which actually brings me to my first question. Rock concerts are infamous for not being able to understand any of the lyrics. How on earth do you create a theatrical experience that's truly embodying rock, but then allows the audience to still understand what the crap is being said, especially when it's so beautiful and profound?

[20:14] Todd Underwood: You know, that's a fine line, right? It's a fine line. You know, for me, it is all about the first statement. We need to hear the first statement. You know, when the lights come up, you hear this sound, the band is going, the drums, the guitars, the keyboard, the bass is all going. So now you're immediately sort of put in this rock concert first, right? Then you have our narrator coming up in this incredible, beautiful suit. So at the beginning, you're setting up this wonderful experience that you're going to have. So once that's there, and we've got the audience, you know, jiving along with us, then we just sort of bring it right down to the narrator, right? We still have that underbelly of the drums and the bass going underneath, but it's about the narrator speaking directly to the audience. There is no fourth wall. You just connect as much as you can, and in that space, I don't know if you've been in the Slack space or not, it's so intimate.

[21:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's very intimate.

[21:26] Todd Underwood: So it allows for that relationship building to start from the very, very beginning. And then when we're just repeating words and phrases, then we let loose and have a great time because we've already heard it once. No new information. Now our ears are accustomed to it.

[21:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. That's great. I think that's a really great rule in general.

[21:48] Todd Underwood: Yes, for sure.

[21:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. If at the very beginning, you can understand and connect with your character, then you can probably relax into that after. Now, the narrator introduces us to the protagonist, and he's just known as the youth. And you get the feeling that this is going to be his walkabout, his journey to manhood. And his story begins in the late 1970s, South Central Los Angeles. He's middle class, and he has been exploring Buddhism.

[22:27] Todd Underwood: Is that fair?

[22:28] Todd Underwood: Mm-hmm.

[22:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And also has a mother who is adamant about him going to the Baptist church. And this is kind of the first sign of conflict, is that his mom always wants him to go to church, and he doesn't want to. And one of the things that he points out is, neither does she. And that gives way to this amazing song. It has some of my favorite lyrics, called Baptist Fashion Show.

[23:00] Todd Underwood: You know, I know this event very well. I grew up in a Baptist church.

[23:04] Todd Underwood: My grandfather was one of the founders of the church that we attended.

[23:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[23:13] Todd Underwood: So we are, my family's very steeped into the Baptist church.

[23:19] Todd Underwood: Steeped into the church and the idea of what Sunday morning is supposed to be. But yeah, it is. I mean, it's a fashion show. The shoes and hats.

[23:31] Todd Underwood: Hats, shoes, bags. I mean, from the time I was old enough to walk, I've had a suit on.

[23:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[23:41] Todd Underwood: So it was this idea. That's how you showed, you know, respect to the church and to God. That you come in your very, very best. But that got skewed, right? You're very, very best in 1930s and 1940s. You had one dress, one hat, and one good pair of shoes. And you got home and you took that off.

[24:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[24:03] Todd Underwood: But as Black America became more financially solvent and more independent, then you could go out and buy more things. My mother and her two best friends, I mean, they were dressed to the nines every Sunday. Obsessed. Every Sunday. And it was this. And then there were other members of the church who could not do that. And so you would see this disparity. And I remember as a kid thinking, why are we dressing up? The teaching is that come as you are. All are welcome to the table.

[24:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly.

[24:45] Todd Underwood: Not come as you're dressed. So it's, yeah, it's a total thing. I mean, the tension between mother and youth, you know, we really discuss their relationship and the church. And, you know, I think there's been a bit of time where they did not go to church just because it just, you know, it falls out of favor. But he's getting older and she's seeing that he needs some guidance. And so this particular Sunday, we are going to church. And they do. Here's some lyrics to describe when they actually get there.

[25:26] Todd Underwood: Now, the church on Adams Boulevard is usually a bore. The ladies wave fans and the old men snore. The kids cut up on cue in the very back pew. And the Holy Ghost ain't been here since 1972.

[25:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Those are incredible.

[25:43] Todd Underwood: That paints a picture.

[25:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's telling.

[25:47] Todd Underwood: It's vibrant. It tells you even the energy and tension in the room, which is, I mean, to be able to do that with a lyric is amazing. The day that they go there, though, something magical happens. The youth feels the Spirit. And it's through the music that's being shared at the church. And he has this epiphany of, oh, my gosh, the Spirit is music. God is art. And that's what I'm connecting to. And Mother slaps his mouth because that is blasphemy.

[26:27] Todd Underwood: Yeah, I mean, to say that he says, I can feel the Spirit. Check it out. Reverend Johns is singing the blues. I mean, for you to say that gospel music is the blues was just…

[26:41] Todd Underwood: You just don't say that. And that he's saying it out loud, and he's being boisterous. He's embarrassing her, right? And there is this very strong edict in the church that children do not speak. They are to be seen, not heard.

[26:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. And unless they've been asked to speak. And so, that has brought shame upon them.

[27:01] Todd Underwood: Wow. I mean, it sounds like that's enough, though, for him to deal with everything that comes along with the church, as long as he can participate in this music.

[27:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And that was me. I was a church musician from the time I was 13 until I was 22. And that is how I dealt with being in church, was the music. The music is what stirs your soul, stirred my soul. And he finds solace in that, and finds two other friends who are sort of the outsiders as well to be a part of that solace.

[27:46] Todd Underwood: It's really interesting because I still go to church, and I love the opportunity to be in charge of choir. I was choir director last year. And yet there is this really interesting dynamic that I'm not sure people are always aware of. It's often the artists who are responsible for creating the moments where people feel closest to God. And yet, so often those artists are the ones who are probably questioning most about God.

[28:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're absolutely right. Hallelujah. And I don't know exactly what that means, but it definitely exists. You know, music is universal. Music can heal and open eyes. It, like you said, it creates that space for the spirits to come into. It's like, even when you hear preachers, especially Black preachers who go into this sort of sing-songy style.

[28:49] Todd Underwood: Yes. It's the same thing, right? It's music. It's notes. It's verse. It's capitulation. I mean, it's all of these incredible things that bring forth emotion, bring forth the spirit, bring forth a connection. But yeah, you're absolutely right. It's the artists in the room who are questioning the most and have the most questions.

[29:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. The choir director for this choir that the youth joins is the son of the pastor, and his name is Franklin Jones. And he's pot smoking. He's a closeted gay man. And he is the one who exposes the youth to drugs, to kind of different philosophies. What's your, how do you feel about this character? Tragic, but also really, really interesting.

[29:53] Todd Underwood: Yeah. You know, Mr. Franklin is a very good representation of ministers of music in Black churches. Where I'm from, he is the Bible Belt. Now, I don't know this for sure.

[30:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure.

[30:13] Todd Underwood: No one has come to me and said to me, yes, I am gay. This is not statistical in any way, however, in your experience.

[30:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: However, in my experience, me being one of the musical directors of music, and knowing the others, they were all gay. But we didn't talk about it.

[30:33] Todd Underwood: Sure.

[30:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You didn't talk about it. And everybody in church knew, but you just didn't talk about it, right? You didn't have, you know, the musical directors didn't have friends or anything like that. So you just didn't talk about it. But that pressure of being godly, of being a true Christian, and a true vessel, even Franklin says he calls himself a vessel of the Lord.

[31:01] Todd Underwood: I am but a vessel.

[31:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a lot of pressure.

[31:04] Todd Underwood: Yeah, yeah. That's a lot of pressure and not being able to be yourself. And the only way you can be yourself is through your hands on a keyboard. So I wouldn't call him tragic. I would call him very complicated, deeply feeling, deeply lost.

[31:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. He has that one line when he talks about how he feels worse than a slave, because...

[31:35] Todd Underwood: Slaves got options.

[31:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Slaves got options and cowards do not. That's rough.

[31:43] Todd Underwood: Yeah. And so I had to think about how much self-deprecation, self-hate that you have to, year after year, feel to call yourself a coward is heavy. And to say that you're worse than a slave, that slaves have options, and because you can't, won't, don't have the ability to make other decisions, you're stuck.

[32:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[32:17] Todd Underwood: And in that time, the late 70s, there was no large gay rights movement.

[32:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fair enough. On top of it all, we got a sense of history here.

[32:29] Todd Underwood: Yeah, for sure. For sure. He's an important character to you. He, in his way, is trying to give all the knowledge, all the love, and all the worldly advice that he can give to these kids, not just to youth, but to Sherry and Terry as well. Please leave this place.

[32:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. And he is the inciting character that sends youth into this direction of, all right, I got to get out of here. I got to continue to develop my music and save money so that I can get out of here. And where he wants to go is Europe. He forms a punk rock band, which I love. I love Soul Brother. That song makes me laugh.

[33:22] Todd Underwood: Again, incredible lyrics.

[33:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, absolutely. I love that Stu, in his writing, doesn't take himself too seriously, because here is a very serious musician who obviously believes in the power of music, but also isn't afraid to have the punk rock song interrupted by the really nice mom who's like, does anyone need any snacks? It's fantastic. So funny.

[33:53] Todd Underwood: He finally does come to a breaking point, though, where he wants to go to Europe and take us through the way that the show allows us to see this final confrontation between youth and mother.

[34:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So, Stu decides to show this meeting of the minds, this loggerhead moment, by putting it in a European avant-garde cinema wrapper. And what's...

[34:24] Todd Underwood: Which is just fantastic. I love that he says, usually this would be a really complex musical theater number. I don't really know how to write that. So instead...

[34:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. Here you go. Here's avant-garde cinema. But it also shows you that that is one of the things that he loves. One of the bits of art that he loves is when he went to Europe was this way of telling stories, and feeling like this was the most important way to say it.

[34:57] Todd Underwood: It's a very... If you strip away the cinematic aspect of it, this is a heavy conversation.

[35:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, 100%. Yeah. There's a lot of comedy in there, but the amount of stuff bouncing back and forth between these two characters is devastating. Devastating. Really, I mean, it's, you know, 18-year-old to 40-whatever-year-old. And it's these two adults really trying to talk at each other.

[35:28] Todd Underwood: Yes.

[35:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And not really talking with each other. And you put that in that avant-garde cinema, and if you think about the visuals, you never see two people looking at each other.

[35:42] Todd Underwood: Of course, they're listening, but they're looking away.

[35:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Smoking a cigarette, sitting at a cafe. That idea of not talking to each other, but just talking at each other, I think is an incredible concept for that argument.

[36:00] Todd Underwood: Ooh, that's so true. You're saying so much just by framing it that way. That's great.

[36:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Um, needless to say, he leaves things a little rough and leaves for Europe. He goes to Amsterdam, which talk about 0 to 100 in 3.5. He lands in Amsterdam, and all of a sudden is like, wait, there's cannabis on the menu and prostitutes in the windows? This is fantastic.

[36:36] Todd Underwood: Yeah, it's everything that Franklin said it would be.

[36:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[36:41] Todd Underwood: Right? And what we did was make that whole Amsterdam sort of a commercial. And I don't know if you remember those commercials from the 80s, come to Sweden, come to Germany, and it had this very polished, too good to be real sort of veneer. And so that's what we did.

[37:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Opening numbers just show how amazing Amsterdam was. Every time they said Amsterdam, they looked at the audience and gave this very 1980s smile.

[37:14] Todd Underwood: Oh, how funny.

[37:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Just to, again, how do we shift from America to Amsterdam? And how can we show it is so far different from where he was? And that is almost even overwhelming at that moment.

[37:32] Todd Underwood: Absolutely.

[37:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[37:33] Todd Underwood: Absolutely. And I love how everybody that he comes in contact with in Amsterdam, speaking of come as you are, everybody's just thrilled by who he is and what he has to bring to the table, in particular, this girl that he meets, Mariana. And it's one of my favorite moments in the show is this song called Keys, in which she just very casually says, well, you're not going to stay in a hotel, stay at my place, here's my keys.

[38:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She gives him her keys. And he's like, wait, where I come from? Here, I want to bring up, do you have those lyrics in front of you about the ladies in the Mercedes?

[38:18] Todd Underwood: Yes, let me see. Now in Beverly Hills, they gave him chills and South Central put his soul in the deep freeze. But she gave him her keys. You know, those LA ladies with the Mercedes, they lock their doors if he just needs. Now he's like, bitch, please. She gave me her keys.

[38:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so great. It's also something that I really experienced. I always talk about my mission on the show, but I served a mission and as a Spanish speaking missionary, but it was in Texas and I encountered such a stark difference between people of my own skin color and the Latin X population that I was working and serving and loving. And I was like, wait, what? When I knock on this person's door, they say, come in, we're not interested in joining your church, but would you like some Kool-Aid? And then people who did look like me, I would knock on their door and they'd say, I've already been saved in the blood of Christ and shut the door. And I was like, what just happened here? I think that's why traveling is so important.

[39:29] Todd Underwood: And I think that's what he's experiencing here.

[39:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I mean, you only know what you know, right? You only know what experiences have shown you, have thrown your way. And you take those with you, right? You just don't expect that when you go to a different country that it's going to be different. I mean, yes, it's going to be different, but you don't know. I guess you don't assume that the cultural way of welcoming will be so different than what you're used to.

[40:00] Todd Underwood: Yeah. I think we always know it's going to be.

[40:02] Todd Underwood: But we can never guess how it's going to be different.

[40:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. Yes, when I went to Europe, the same thing. I thought that, you know, I was going to be approached in the same way that I was in America, and I was not at all. And it was shocking. It really was shocking.

[40:20] Todd Underwood: Wow.

[40:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And wonderful. And freeing.

[40:24] Todd Underwood: No question about this, because a PASSING STRANGE traditionally all-Black cast. Amsterdam. Are these characters playing white people in Amsterdam? Does it matter? You know what I mean?

[40:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, here's the thing. It doesn't matter. No race is spoken about.

[40:45] Todd Underwood: Absolutely not.

[40:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You can assume, you can totally assume that these characters are white. Our actors went through rigorous dialect coaching. So, they spoke with a Dutch accent. But what I think is so great about the reasoning, I feel the reasoning of why they decided to not put white people in Amsterdam and not white people in Berlin, because it didn't matter.

[41:11] Todd Underwood: Yeah, it really doesn't.

[41:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right? It didn't matter. They didn't look at him as a Black person in the same way.

[41:20] Todd Underwood: Ooh, that is great. That is great.

[41:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. If it doesn't matter what color he is, then it doesn't matter what color they are.

[41:29] Todd Underwood: Hallelujah. That's great. Yes. He falls in love with Mariana. There's a lot of sex. And then he gets bored with Paradise. It's this timeless tale, as we are in our own artistic journeys of, do I have anything to say if I'm not pissed off about something? If we are outraged by something, are we even living? That kind of collective unrest, I think, can really wear on somebody and make you question everything.

[42:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Especially at such a young age that he's in and experiencing life all at once, even. Right?

[42:14] Todd Underwood: Mm-hmm.

[42:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You can easily point a finger to or blame whatever, if your creative juices have...

[42:25] Todd Underwood: Aren't flowing. Yeah.

[42:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, exactly. And you think, well, what's different? Well, I'm here in this place. Well, I'm happy, so...

[42:33] Todd Underwood: Yeah, so I don't want to write happy songs. I'm a punk rocker. I want to write about these things. Um, so yeah, I mean, I think, as any young person, and I'm speaking in very general terms, we don't understand what love is, and the power of it, and the sharpness of it. As a young person, we think, oh, this is something that I feel. That's something that is surrounding me and reverberating off of all the other people who are in the room as well. It's almost selfish.

[43:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[43:14] Todd Underwood: It's almost selfish. That love is selfish.

[43:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a great way of framing it. Thank you. And that's how Act One ends, is that he leaves. He leaves this kind of paradise. It's really beautiful how he says goodbye and tries to leave the door open for coming back. And she says no.

[43:34] Todd Underwood: Yeah, because she knows. You know, each one of these core memories is a teachable moment, and it's a lesson for him that you need to value other people as much as you value yourself.

[43:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There it is.

[43:54] Todd Underwood: All right, Act Two starts, and he arrives in West Berlin during a May Day riot.

[44:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, talk about extremes. We go from lovely Amsterdam to just some of the angriest screaming you've ever heard on a Broadway stage. It's fantastic, though. He's just surrounded by these performance artists who have all of the angst that I think he's been assuming that he needs in his own life. And they're all incredibly creative in their own way.

[44:29] Todd Underwood: What's interesting, though, is that it preys on his own insecurity of what he's going to bring to this group. They have some indignation or self-righteousness about their anger. And so, it's like, all right, well, what are you bringing to the table? What do you have to be angry about? What do you have to be angry about? And so, this is one of the instances in which passing, as you helped us understand it earlier, really comes into play, because he begins to invent the story of his upbringing, which was in a middle-class family and a mother who was very supportive. He kind of twists it into living on the streets and struggling every day of his life.

[45:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Selling dimes on the corner.

[45:25] Todd Underwood: I love that the narrator interjects every once in a while. It's like, this did not happen. Never once did this happen.

[45:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, yeah. One of the wonderful things that travel allows you to do is to be whomever you want to be at that moment in time. Because they don't know you, they don't know your history, they don't know your mama and your daddy. So, it allows him to create this persona that he felt that he needed to belong, to pass.

[46:00] Todd Underwood: Yeah.

[46:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Have you ever felt, maybe not necessarily in the same way, but have you ever felt that you needed to change who you are in this business to either be perceived a certain way or successful?

[46:19] Todd Underwood: I mean, you know, it, yes. I mean, just to be blunt. Well, yes. It, as a person of color, and all of this has really come to the forefront in these past couple years, as a person of color, you're always worried about stepping too far across that line.

[46:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Because they can be like, okay, we won't ever hire you again.

[46:51] Todd Underwood: We're taking that back now.

[46:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We're just gonna, yeah. And I'm sure that's a worry for lots of artists. But when a Black artist steps out and is loud and proud and really using their voice, and if that is not being appreciated, then that potentially closes the door on those coming after. Right? That's why this show, among a lot of all Black cast shows, aren't done a lot.

[47:25] Todd Underwood: Yeah, now we're getting to some harsh truths. Yeah.

[47:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You know, they're difficult to work with, and they need special, you know, people for their hair, and they want this, and they want that, and all of this sort of stuff. I mean, only recently in the past decade, I would say, has the whole hair conversation been able to really be brought to the surface.

[48:00] Todd Underwood: Wow. And just, I mean, really? Hair? Yeah, that was what was the nail in the coffin, you know? And then, you know, who has the right to speak to certain cultural lives and divide and voices and things of that nature? There's a lot of pressure on BIPOC artists to ride that line, being true to themselves, being true to their voices, but also having to temper sometimes, how they walk into a room, how they voice issues, how they negotiate for things. It's a constant, I'm sure you've heard the term of code switching, right? It's a constant code switching and trying to figure out how I need to show up for a particular audience, producer, theater, show.

[49:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah. And personally, I feel like that should be an easy thing for anybody to understand, because I think on some level, we all experience it. And so, to not be able to see it for someone else feels short-sighted. I know for me, I'm always trying, especially when I first moved to Hollywood, I was, I mean, I am just the most vanilla-y thing you've ever seen in your life. But I eventually had to accept vanilla's a flavor and quite important to chocolate chip cookies, might I add. So, yes, I may be kind of conservative and boring, but that's okay, too. I don't need to pretend like I'm more interesting or controversial than I already am. That in itself can be controversial. And that's on that side of the equation. So, I just feel like we can all have so much empathy and understanding for everybody who kind of goes through this in their own way, specifically when we're talking about an art form that historically has been incredibly white.

[50:14] Todd Underwood: Most definitely. And one of the great things that has come out of the past two years is that now, so many more voices are being asked to be heard, right? You know, the BIPOC community isn't having, they still are, but they aren't having to scrounge and just try to find one person to listen to them. And I hope this stays this way. But, I mean, the amount of different voices that are coming to the theater, to music, to art, to every cultural aspect, entertainment, sports, the idea of being able to be oneself, and that everyone's story should be heard and listened to and taken in is huge. I mean, it really is an incredible step. You know, I, listen, I'm working more now than I have my entire career. And I, you know, and I, and it is due to this shift, the idea that me as a Black man need to be in front of white people in a leadership position. And that that is important.

[51:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mm-hmm.

[51:42] Todd Underwood: Not just because I'm talented, but—

[51:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which you are.

[51:47] Todd Underwood: Which I feel that I am. I feel I have a strong voice that I want to share. But it's not just that. It's both of those things together. And that is the thing that the conscious decision of those things is what makes me excited about continuing on in this profession, and bringing others with me.

[52:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think that's an incredible place to be in. And I think that's an incredible, I hope, an incredible step to take collectively as a culture. The step that Youth takes in his career at this point is to create a song that says, I let my pain f*** my ego and I call the bastard art.

[52:36] Todd Underwood: Yeah, I mean, this identity, you know, is him at his most honest, him at his most vulnerable, even though it's couched in this very dramatic performance art cloak. It speaks truth.

[52:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, that's what's so crazy is that he is really tapping into his pain. Because he has pain. We saw that scene with his mom, who he really hasn't had contact with and refuses to call back whenever she's trying to track him down. And yet the pain that everyone else thinks that he's tapping into is something else. And

[53:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Where do you think is the moment when this new love interest that he has, what's her name?

[53:30] Todd Underwood: Her name is Desi. Desi, thank you. And when is the moment that Desi realizes that what he's singing about is different than this identity that he's told everybody about? Well, it's what I call an off-the-page moment. So, identity is performed. It's to critical acclaim that another town asked him to come and do it. So, all of the performing arts communities have asked him to come and do this incredible, insightful piece. And, you know, it stops from being this singular personal achievement to being a show. Right? As if the costumes got more elaborate, the lighting became more elaborate, the music. So, it becomes this other thing than this honest, authentic showing of himself. That he becomes a star.

And she can see, off the page, that he's changing. That where you were six months ago in the identity is not what I see now. This is a character. This is a persona. This is an act. So, who are you really? She recognizes that. Which means that he's still got some stuff that he hasn't confronted yet. Not honestly. I can't think of another musical, and we obviously talk a lot about 11 o'clock numbers in this podcast. I can't think of another show that has an 11 o'clock number that gets interrupted and doesn't get to finish. But this show does. I love it. It's actually called, isn't it called You, Sun, Finish, Song? And, you know, this would traditionally be the moment in a musical when he finally realizes and when he comes to some point of clarity with all of this.

And what happens instead is that that number gets interrupted by the narrator. By narrator. And it's this meeting of these two characters where the narrator says, the means won't prepare you for the ends. How your epiphanies will become fair weather friends. Everything's always changing. And it's like, is it even worth giving this moment to this epiphany when time might prove it to be just another passing moment?

[56:15] Todd Underwood: Yeah. I mean, through the show, you know, the youth and the narrator at points really connect to each other and speak to each other. It's one of the devices I think is really cool in the show. And at this moment, he realizes that the youth, I mean, the narrator is producing the show, if you think about it on a global scale. Everything that is happening, the narrator is driving. But at this moment, youth starts to take over and starts to have their own voice.

[56:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. Yes. I love that. I love that. And the narrator has to say, wait a second. No, no, no, no. We're not going to tie this up in a beautiful little bow, because that's not what life is. And I love those lines that you just quoted. I mean, it's, yeah, the means will not prepare you for the ends and your epiphanies will become fair weather friends. What you think right now may not be relevant.

[57:14] Todd Underwood: You're so sure of yourself.

[57:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. It may not be relevant. Hold on, brother. Continue to live your life and see where it leads you. And that's what the narrator is trying to say. Listen, I'm already there. I'm already there and I know what is happening. I just want to give you a little bit more insight so that as you continue to tell the story, you aren't overlooking the unknown.

[57:43] Todd Underwood: So out of this number, we learn that mother has died, right? And it's this just heartbreaking moment because there's so much that was unsaid, so much that was unhealed. I couldn't even write down the quotes fast enough that I wanted to remember for this episode. There are just so many beautiful little nuggets, but there's some line that's like, the amazing thing about art is that you can create the scene that you never had. And then mother comes back. I have full body chills. Mother comes back in this gorgeous gown and they get to play out the scene that never existed. Gorgeous moment.

[58:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I often think that that's one of the reasons why he wrote the show is to get all of these things that he hadn't been able to say and all of these memories and all of these core shifts for him out into the world. So that maybe there, you know, by saying these things, by putting this on stage, some voice would come to him and say, it's all right. And so what they decided to do was actually have that moment.

[59:03] Todd Underwood: Life is a mistake that only art can correct.

[59:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[59:09] Todd Underwood: This is also the moment when we realized that the narrator and youth are the same person.

[59:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Correct. I mean, truly the profound moment that we realized the narrator is narrating his own story. And when the youth says, he says, I will see her again every night, you know, and it took me a long time to sort of square myself with that. But it's that, yes, my younger self will remember my mother. My younger self will remember how beautiful she was and how she made pancakes for me and how she did all of these wonderful things. That is the mother that I want to, that we will never let go of.

[59:53] Todd Underwood: Dang. Okay. This is just like, the art here is so, there's so many layers. It's so gorgeous. The one thing we haven't brought up is that throughout all of this show, they're talking about the real. R-E-A-L. What is the real? What is the thing that's really real in life? And at the end, very unceremoniously, might I add, might I add, the narrator finally kind of tells us. He says, it's the last lyric in the show, because the real is a construct, is a construct. It's the raw nerves private zone. It's a personal sunset you drive off into alone.

[1:00:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. I think everybody just push pause and think about that for about 45 minutes. And then you can keep listening to this episode. What's your take on the real?

[1:00:56] Todd Underwood: The real is you.

[1:01:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Todd.

[1:01:10] Todd Underwood: I don't even know what to do with that information. It was so simple and yet so profound.

[1:01:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. Yep. Yep. And you can't run from it. You cannot run from it. It's the one thing you can't run from. Yes. Because you're always you. And it's the one thing that's not outside of yourself.

[1:01:26] Todd Underwood: Yep. People are searching for this thing outside of themselves, money, fame, love, sex, drugs, whatever, to make them feel something. And it's you. You feel. And the real is you.

[1:01:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Simple. Simple. Of course, it's simple. All the most profound things are.

[1:01:55] Todd Underwood: Yeah. Dang. So, this whole story is essentially bringing us to that lesson.

[1:02:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mm-hmm. It's not about the art. I mean, it is about the art, right? But only because the art brings us back to ourselves. And your voice. I use the term voice is not just the thing that comes from your throat out of your mouth, but your voice is your everything about you. Your nails, your hair, your teeth, your body, your eyes, your everything. That is your voice, and that is you, and that is real. It's a continuing search. And it ebbs and flows, and you'll find it for 10 years, and then something happens, and you're going, okay, there's something else in there, too. Let's explore that. We forget to explore because we are taught to get there.

[1:02:55] Todd Underwood: We're taught to arrive.

[1:02:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's exactly what I was just going to say. Yeah. But it's the journey.

[1:03:00] Todd Underwood: It is. This has been incredible. Thank you so much, Todd Underwood.

[1:03:06] Todd Underwood: Thank you, Jeff. I appreciate it.

[1:03:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How do we attend your church?

[1:03:10] Todd Underwood: You know, it's very interesting. My grandfather, he passed away 20 years ago. He's a minister. My sister is a minister. There is this thing about my family that has a talent for this, and I don't know what this is, but we have a talent for it, and I use it every day.

[1:03:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[1:03:43] Todd Underwood: I used to shy away from it, because I used to think, nobody wants to hear me.

[1:03:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But that's not true.

[1:03:53] Todd Underwood: No.

[1:03:54] Todd Underwood: And so I use it every day. I use it in everything that I do, in the way that I approach myself, my life, my art, my work, because it's me. It's my real. It's my real.

[1:04:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's your real.

[1:04:09] Todd Underwood: Yeah.

[1:04:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh. It reminds me of this mantra that I learned that I really love. It's, I expand in abundance, success, and love every day as I inspire those around me to do the same.

[1:04:22] Todd Underwood: That's what you're doing.

[1:04:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you. I try my best.

[1:04:26] Todd Underwood: That's all we can do.

[1:04:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[1:04:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Don't forget to follow us on social media on Instagram and Twitter, at amusicalpodcast. We're on TikTok. We have a TeePublic store with lots of great designs and, of course, a fun game. We're asking listeners to send in their artworks to get their artwork in our TeePublic store. We have Patreon! Where you can subscribe for only $1, support the show, and receive bonus content. I want to thank Maui Academy of the Performing Arts, where I am recording today. If you haven't been following my social media, I'm in Hawaii now. Go figure. So, thank you, Tamapa. And thank you, Todd. How do we keep up with anything you're up to, or is there anything you want to plug?

[1:05:22] Todd Underwood: If you are in the Salt Lake City area, please go see Passing Strange. It's an incredible production. The actors, the musicians, the crew, it just is one of the most incredible theater experiences that I've had. And I would love for you to be able to see that and join in that moment with them.

[1:05:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's fantastic. How long does it run?

[1:05:47] Todd Underwood: Good question. I think it runs until May 15th, but you can check their website, slack.org, I do believe is their website. And that will be able to give you all the details that you would need to be able to see the show.

[1:06:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Beautiful. That's amazing. We'll definitely share some production photos on our social media as well. Todd, an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much.

[1:06:11] Todd Underwood: Jeff, it's been an absolute honor speaking with you today, and I've enjoyed the conversation a lot.

[1:06:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And to everybody out there, thank you for listening, and the real is you.