This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Michael John LaChiusa: Michael John, are you ever interested or curious as to which shows of yours get licensed the most? Like, are you in on that, or do you just kind of...

[0:07] Michael John LaChiusa: No, I don't. I really don't. I know a lot of people do follow that, and I suppose that's a sign of good business acumen, but I never possessed that. So, no, I don't really pay much attention to it. I would guess that SEE WHAT I WANNA SEE has to be one of, I don't know, one of the top ones, like maybe top four, because I feel like it's a perfect piece. There's only five actors, first of all. Yeah, it's a chamber piece, and yes, it's very ideal for the universities and colleges, and there's been several very fine productions of them done at UCLA.

[0:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And Travis, that's how you first did it, right, was at UCLA?

[0:46] Travis Leland: Yeah, that was my freshman year, my first quarter of college.

[0:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Your first quarter of college, you did one of Michael John's shows. That is welcome to the musical theater world.

[0:57] Travis Leland: Yes, it is. It really, truly was, and I should not have even really been there, because I didn't know many people, you know, like going in freshman year, obviously. But our director was a sophomore at the time, Hunter Bird, great good friend of mine still, and he had seen me at some open mic night thing and was like, hey, can you come audition for this? And I did, and it turned out to be one of the best experiences of my life still.

[1:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so cool.

[1:24] Travis Leland: Yeah.

[1:24] Michael John LaChiusa: I remember the UCLA production very well. It was very beautifully done, great singers in it, but I do remember it's quite notorious in the Michael John LaChiusa oeuvre of that production, because it was afterwards, as I normally do, I went backstage to congratulate the orchestra and meet the orchestra, which I always do, and talk to the music director. And I pulled the music director aside, and I said, you know, the name of the show is See What I Want to See, Not Play What You Want to Play, because his tempos were all over the place, and I didn't know what, I mean, I was sitting there listening to it, and I'm going, didn't you listen to the cast album? There's a cast album out there. It's great documentation, you know what I mean? It's perfectly, you know, just listen to the cast album if you have any questions about tempo. Clearly, the music director had not done it, so it was just...

[2:14] Michael John LaChiusa: Play What I Want to Play.

[2:15] Michael John LaChiusa: Play What I Want to Play. It's not that. See What I Want to See.

[2:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite shows in musical theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we're talking about See What I Want to See, and to join me in this conversation is Mr. Travis Leland, one of my friends from Los Angeles. Travis, I think I first saw you in Damn Yankees.

[2:52] Travis Leland: Oh, yeah.

[2:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I remember sitting there going, oh, I guess Joe Hardy's my favorite part of Damn Yankees? You were really fantastic.

[3:01] Travis Leland: Oh, thank you.

[3:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But then we got started talking, and we both have a love of See What I Want to See, and so I asked if you would be willing to do an episode of the podcast all about this show, and you were like, absolutely. By the way, I know Michael John LaChiusa from him coming to see the show at UCLA. Do you want me to reach out to him? And I fangirled and fainted, and then I woke up and said, absolutely. And he did, and so now I get to introduce, I believe, the only person I know who competed against himself at the Tony Awards in two separate categories in the same year. It's Michael John LaChiusa, everyone.

[3:45] Michael John LaChiusa: Hello.

[3:47] Michael John LaChiusa: Hello. Happy to be here.

[3:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm so grateful that you are both here to talk about this special show and this really interesting canon of musical theater that you have brought to the art form. I promise I'm not trying to blow smoke up your butt, but when most people say, you know, like that thing?

[4:05] Michael John LaChiusa: Not a very good metaphor these days, smoke.

[4:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, poor California.

[4:10] Michael John LaChiusa: I was thinking of poor Travis and you yourself, even there.

[4:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a very good point.

[4:16] Michael John LaChiusa: No smoke, please.

[4:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But I feel like one of the famous questions that always gets tossed around among musical theater lovers is if you could go back in time and see one show, what would it be? And people usually say Merman and Gypsy or the original cast of Dreamgirls or something like that. I'm the nerd who's like, Chronicle of a Death Foretold, because I've always been really fascinated by your stuff. My relationship to your canon of work isn't so much that I listen to it once and it gets stuck in my head, it's that I listen to it multiple times and then it gets like stuck to my soul. And I know that that sounds exaggerated and like dramatic, but I'm a musical theater boy, so I am, you know, dramatic. But I do think that it has a lot to do with what you bring to a show rhythmically. A lot of your music has these really interesting primal beats. Can you talk about that? Because that is what ends up creating the mood for me every single time.

[5:16] Michael John LaChiusa: I think it's because I didn't start off learning to play music on the piano, but I started off as a percussionist and began playing drums at a very early age. And I think that I've always been fascinated with rhythm and percussion, and that might be one of the reasons too. But in terms of like, I guess in terms of just drama, you know, the first thing I kind of deal with when I'm writing a song for a character is what's their heartbeat? You know, what's the heartbeat? Is it going to be bum bum bum or, you know, fast beat, you know, whatever, you know, what's the emotional state of the person's heart? And I also think too, depending on where the piece is set to is always intriguing to me. I mean, much of our music, world music, is very percussion and very rhythm oriented.

And so there's a lot to explore. And I love learning new percussion instruments, learning new rhythms and exploring that and, you know, stretching myself in terms of the education of that. I don't know if that answers the question or not, but it...

[6:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. I love that. I think a lot of my shows begin with percussion. I think a lot of my shows start with some percussion something or another going on. Maybe I'm just lazy and repeating myself or something. I'm not sure.

[6:39] Michael John LaChiusa: No, no. You know, but it seems to be something that I just something I gravitate toward. The percussion is something you feel. And I mean, we'll jump into this more in detail, but the opening to See What I Want to See is totally, I mean, you get the... Like the flute, but then it goes into the... Everybody, you feel it. You're instantly in this world, right? In the rhythms of one, two and three. And then it just repeats itself over and over again instead of three, because it's three stories that we're going to tell that evening. What? There you go. There you go.

[7:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited. So do you find those beats first and then you're like, oh, I guess I just wrote a song in seven, eight or some crazy time signature?

[7:28] Michael John LaChiusa: Yeah, I think it's a matter of... I don't find myself going, I must write something in seven, eight. I don't think that way. I feel like Lloyd Webber does that.

[7:38] Michael John LaChiusa: Well, he very well might because he's very well educated and he's a very fine, fine, fine, fine composer. And so, yeah, absolutely. And I think there are magical... There's an alchemy to rhythm compound or otherwise that evokes certain things, agitation or sex. For me, when I write in five, four, I'm always having sex to it on the stage or something or off stage, if you will. But seven, eight doesn't do it for me. You know what I mean? Seven, eight doesn't turn me on.

[8:17] Travis Leland: It's all about the five, four people.

[8:21] Michael John LaChiusa: Yeah, it's too erratic, seven, eight.

[8:27] Travis Leland: Yeah, it's like the five, four is...

[8:30] Michael John LaChiusa: It's sexy, you know.

[8:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think that See What I Want to See is a great jumping in point for your work if people don't know a lot of your musicals. And the reason I say so is because I love that it's smallish. So it's not trying to be a huge Broadway spectacle type musical. And yet it's dealing with some of the biggest themes you could ever try to write a musical about. The idea of what is truth? Is objective truth even possible to comprehend? And if it is, does it even matter? Here we are. I was thinking about this last night. I just re-listened to the whole soundtrack. And here we are in this world now where facts are being debated and truth is so hard to find because there's so much noise. So I think your show is even more relevant now than it was in what was it, 2003 when it came out?

[9:26] Michael John LaChiusa: I think it was 2005 because I did Bernarda Alba the same year, same season. And that happened in 2006. So we did See What I Want to See and then I opened Bernarda Alba at Lincoln. See What I Want to See was done at The Public. And then later that season, I did Bernarda Alba at Lincoln Center. So I did two musicals that year off-Broadway.

[9:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's crazy. How did that happen?

[9:51] Michael John LaChiusa: My whole life has been that. Since I first was doing things in New York, my first major productions were in the same season. First, Lady Sweet at The Public and then Hello Again at Lincoln Center. And then it always seemed to happen that way. And sometimes just doing an off-Broadway piece and then doing an opera in the same year. So I don't know how it works out that way. It's not a matter of writing them at the same time because musicals take forever to get done sometimes or a very short time period. So it depends on what level they're at. And if they're both ready to go, that's great. I just have to show up and do what I need to do in the rehearsals there.

[10:30] Michael John LaChiusa: Do what you need to do, see what you need to see, play what you want to play. Going back a little bit though, you were mentioning about the show and the matter of truth and all, but I have to just say that it's really because of the source material that I found based on Okutagawa's short story, the great Japanese short story writer, Okutagawa. His stories were written in a very provocative time in Japan in the early 1920s. And he was looking at his country, which was going through a radical change. I mean, if you were a musical theater buff, you know probably some of the history through Pacifica, which was for instance, the radical change that was happening to that country. And he was writing a lot about what is truth, what is truth is totally subjective.

That one person who sees the orange world down the street, another person saw it roll up the street. And it all depends on where you're looking at and what you want from that experience. Which is very, very profound and very deep when you consider it. And quite poetic too as a very Japanese aesthetic too.

[11:44] Michael John LaChiusa: Whenever I listen to the show, I'm always taken back to this time when I was serving on jury duty in Los Angeles.

[11:51] Travis Leland: Yeah.

[11:51] Michael John LaChiusa: And it was a murder case. It was like a murder case surrounding gang violence. And we ended up convicting the defendant of murder. And the thing that they kept telling us was that it doesn't have to be beyond a shadow of a doubt, right? That's not the burden of proof in America.

[12:15] Michael John LaChiusa: And so based on those rules we convicted him, but I still think about that guy and I'm like, I can't tell you if 100% or not he killed somebody. I really don't know, but like that's the best that I could do. That's the best that I could come up with was follow through with the system that's in place. That's tough because a lot of people aren't jailed because of circumstantial evidence.

[12:36] Travis Leland: Exactly, exactly. I mean the burden of proof, you know, I mean that's the hard thing to figure out in our judicial system. That's why so many innocent people have wound up in prison or because of racial bias and politics. So something that, I mean, in our country, yes, and particularly currently, the idea of what is truth and what is not truth. I mean, jeez, I mean I've never seen it more divided in my lifetime. And I go back to Nixon days and, you know, and I thought that was pretty gruesome as a kid, you know, but this what we're going through now is an unspeakable horror and irrevocable damage, I think, to our constitution. Maybe that's what we need to do, but I wish it weren't so destructive in terms of like dividing us. I wish that we, you know, and if we can't come to agree on what the truth is, maybe we can find some way to learn together what it could be.

[13:39] Michael John LaChiusa: Well, isn't it interesting that we sometimes fixate on specific truths and then in doing so completely forget about even a higher or greater truth in the process, you know?

[13:44] Travis Leland: Yes, oh yeah. We choose hate because we disagree on this thing when actually love and connection is even the greater truth. And I guess it's within our experience to figure out which is more important and what deserves the attention when. But I think that's why I love the story, the dragon Kutagawa story, the dragon, which forms the basis of what's the second act of See What I Wanna See, which is called, what's called the dragon?

[14:12] Michael John LaChiusa: Glory Day.

[14:12] Travis Leland: Yeah, and the name of my own shows. Yeah, Glory Day. You've written a lot of them.

[14:19] Michael John LaChiusa: Yeah, I guess so, or I'm old. How about that? I don't remember things. Yeah, Glory Day is based on the dragon, and I loved the dragon so much because with the priest, who's the central character and all, who falls out of his faith and decides that belief in a higher being is totally bogus and fake and, you know, what a lie. Obviously, he's been living his whole life. He decides to play a trick by announcing that a dragon's going to rise from, you know, the park. And fortunately, what happens is that people actually believe it. And in my version of it, all I switched to America, present-day America, and I have a disgruntled priest who I don't name it specifically, but it seems as though he's gone through 9/11 and loses his faith in mankind and has a crisis of faith.

And he decides, I'm going to play a trick on people, and he goes to Central Park and he nails up the thing saying Christ is going to come out of the big pond. And people believe it because they're so hungry and desperate for the miracle, for some salvation, for some sort of hope, some sort of Christ, if you will, which is a beautiful word in many ways if you use it right and don't damn hurt people with it. People need that. He discovers, and at the moment when this thing's supposed to happen, a huge hurricane blows through Central Park and people all flee. No one sees the miracle that happens. No one sees Christ rise from the pond except for the priest. And that's based on what happens in the dragon, the original story too, where only the priest sees the dragon and no one else does.

So that beautiful metaphor of you played a joke and you also, you are the recipient of, you were the one who needed the most, the miracle. And I think that that's something too that I think is quite profoundly beautiful too, that it's only those who really need the miracle will receive that gift if you're open enough to it, you know? And you never know where it's going to come from either, those miracles. And we all, that's why you have to keep the faith, you know? Things will get better and we have to work hard for that to make them better. We just can't let God take care of things.

[16:38] Travis Leland: Were you in New York during 9/11?

[16:44] Michael John LaChiusa: Yes, as a matter of fact, it was again very, very frightening and scary and traumatic. Did it change anything for you as a composer? Because I look at what was happening on Broadway pre-9/11 and we were kind of willing to go down some pretty dark territory. Your show Marie Christine and The Wild Party both were on Broadway pre-9/11, and then post-9/11, it's Mamma Mia, it's Thoroughly Modern Millie. It really does seem like we went to a more kind of escapist place, although all of those shows have themes that are important to explore as well. But did you feel any sort of shift in yourself as an artist because of that at the time?

[17:23] Michael John LaChiusa: No, because I had to finish a show that I was writing for that was going to be produced in Japan. And so in fact, on 9/11, I was working at the piano and gotten a call from, working on one of the songs from the show that was going to premiere in Japan and got a phone call from my brother who said, you go turn on the TV. You know, I didn't write for another three days for obvious reasons or five days, I think it was just because like all of us, you just watched over and over again. But at some point, you have to pick yourself up and you say, okay, now I gotta move forward here. And I think that that is where craftspersonship always wins the day. In some cases, it's one thing to be artistic and etc., etc., etc., gifted, whatever you want to call it.

But it's another thing to be a craftsperson because you can always rely on your craft to go back to and help get you through certain things and terrible calamities like 9/11 or what we're living through today, COVID and fires and Donald Trump. You know, I have to rely on my craft some days to get me to the fucking piano, get me to my notepad, to whatever. I say just put down something, you know what I mean? And then worry about being artistic later and creative later. Just get to that damn piano and pound something out, something that will come out, you know? And that's why I teach my students that, you know, I'm saying, you know, it's one thing to be an artist and quite another thing to be a craftsperson. You must be both to have a career and to make your work, you know, come alive and be truthful.

[19:01] Travis Leland: Yes, yes, yes. I feel like Yoda sometimes, you know? I'm looking at myself, I'm going, God, you look like Yoda, wrinkle old message, you know? I do think it's important though. In my life, I've noticed that if you're feeling inspired, act on it because there will be days where you have to be the craftsman and edit, edit, edit, sit down at the desk, do the adulting. But if you are feeling the inspiration, catch it while it's there. I always say this, that the Renaissance I think is highly overrated because I like medieval thought in some ways because in the medieval ages, they didn't believe that the genie or the genius recited within oneself, that the genies were in the walls. And what if they could, if they were flying around you, were aware of it, you could grab the genie by the tail and capture it and capture genius.

The Renaissance kind of switched that up by saying genius resides within us. And I go, maybe it's both ways, but because you have to be open to the world and what's happening around you because the genius is out there, not always within you. The genius is outside yourself, and if you're not paying attention and being attuned to what's happening around you, you know, you miss things and you miss the chance to grab that genie by the tail.

[20:20] Michael John LaChiusa: Beautiful. Yoda says, Yoda says, Yoda.

[20:20] Travis Leland: Thank you, Yoda.

[20:30] Michael John LaChiusa: Master Yoda. Travis, you are, are you of Lebanese descent?

[20:30] Travis Leland: I am, yes. It's such a Lebanese name, Travis Leland.

[20:38] Michael John LaChiusa: That you know, right now.

[20:38] Travis Leland: Well, that's funny too. Actually, my Leland is not my birth name. My father, that's my father's last name. He was Scottish-Irish and he was adopted, so that was not even his last name. My mother is the Lebanese one, and her last, her maiden name was Aboumrad.

[20:52] Michael John LaChiusa: Oh, that which is very, very Lebanese. Yeah. Do you have people back there, Travis? Do you have family back there?

[21:03] Travis Leland: I do. I have a couple of family members there and actually a couple that I've never met before because they've never come to America and I have not been there. But everyone is fine after the Beirut explosion. It's just so sad over there. My sister-in-law is part Lebanese too, and it's just a beautiful, beautiful, beautiful culture. And it's just, again, talk about world crises, you know, they were having a hard time before that explosion. And in a lot of ways, a lot of people were saying that was sort of the ripping the band-aid off of the problems going on in that country, you know, whatever actually happened in terms of how that, you know, in terms of how it exploded. A lot of people were hurt, a lot of people died, and a lot of buildings and businesses were destroyed.

And it sort of was like a wake-up call. And then I don't know if you were following along, but a lot of the government officials stepped down, resigned shortly thereafter, and they're sort of like restructuring their whole government and their whole people. So, you know, it's awful, it's terrible, it's really sad, but sometimes after big things like that, you see a lot of progress and you see things start to change, much like what we've dealt with with George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, right? Socially, culturally, we are dealing with a lot of that, having to reassess what we stand by, what we do, the people in charge, unchecked power and things like that.

[22:20] Michael John LaChiusa: For sure.

[22:20] Travis Leland: But yes, but yes, I'm Lebanese. Yes. What made me think of it was with a show that has 9/11 roots. Was there anything that you went through in your childhood or was there anything that you brought to your experience in this show that was tied to your 9/11 experiences?

[22:37] Michael John LaChiusa: As someone whose mom is Lebanese and of Middle Eastern descent, I mean, I definitely was, you know, called a terrorist occasionally. And whether it was like some kind of a soft joke or something like that, you know, sure. Also, I'm fairly white-passing, you know, complexion-wise, so I don't think a lot of people look at me instantly and say, oh, you're Middle Eastern. Grew up Catholic, so grew up in the Catholic Church. I wasn't super tied to religion, but yeah, I wouldn't say there was anything really particular about See What I Wanna See that hit me as a Middle Eastern man. You know, I played the thief and the reporter, so in the second act, cool, I got to sing the beautiful, beautiful song "Curiosity."

[23:22] Travis Leland: And you sang it so beautifully. I remember it.

[23:29] Michael John LaChiusa: Thank you. I told you that. I told you that afterwards. I thought it was one of the most beautifully performed versions of the song I've ever heard. It's one of my favorite songs, you know, of course from the show. I love, love, love, love that song. It's so impactful. And I, you know, sidebar, I have attempted to bring that song into audition rooms. Nobody can play it. Nobody can play it.

[23:51] Travis Leland: You know what? It's really not hard. I, you know, I don't know what back when I was a kid, you know, you had to learn how to play song time. Otherwise, you know, that's really hard stuff too. But you had a site back in my day. We had to sometimes even sight read and sight transpose Steve's work. Oh my God.

[24:10] Michael John LaChiusa: Nowadays, a lot of these companies can't do anything. There aren't people that can play it though. You just have to find them.

[24:15] Travis Leland: But did you have actors come up to you and be like this, but in D flat, and then you had to transpose it?

[24:20] Michael John LaChiusa: Yes, absolutely. That would be such a faux pas nowadays.

[24:30] Michael John LaChiusa: I can't do that. You kids. You kids. You kids today.

[24:38] Travis Leland: All right, Yoda. All right, Yoda.

[24:41] Michael John LaChiusa: You actors now. You young actors now. It's funny now. Back in my day, we didn't have finale programs. We had to do things by hand. So things needed to be transposed in the moment. We had to go back home that night after rehearsals and do the whole transposition. It's like you're writing an ensemble piece. Exactly, and you'd be up all night writing that transition. Nowadays, they want you to have the music all ready. You have to make MP3s. This is before you even go into rehearsal. MP3s with their solo lines and da-da-da-da-da. So all this technology has made my life much more difficult than it was back in the old timey days. So I actually want to go back to the old timey days where I had to write out things because there was no having to make stupid Dropbox files. The Dropbox. I think I'm going to do one-person shows because it's too much work.

[25:32] Travis Leland: Well, also, we have less time to rehearse, though, too. All of the shows I've done prior to COVID, I had a two-week rehearsal period. There's no way I could learn your score in a week and a half.

[25:45] Michael John LaChiusa: Are you kidding me? Oh, no, no, no. You can learn my score in three days. Now, memorizing it, I'm ready. I'm ready. Now, Michael John, you teach at NYU, right?

[26:00] Michael John LaChiusa: Yes. And Travis, obviously, UCLA is how he found See What I Want to See. I wanted to talk briefly about the place of higher education in terms of the future of musical theater and, I guess, just creating art in general, because I know that you have been vocal about your frustration in trying to figure out how to produce works, how to make them not necessarily commercially successful, but a financially viable endeavor. So where does higher education fall in there?

[26:29] Travis Leland: I have a degree in musical theater. So does Travis. And while I'm incredibly grateful for it, I'm not always totally sure it's much more than a racket.

[26:41] Michael John LaChiusa: Oh, gosh, you know, I didn't go to college. I graduated from high school and just moved to the city and began playing piano and making money. And that was sort of my way of learning. Of course, things like say, we're different than we didn't have cell phones and internet. So you don't have any of that shit. And we would go and meet people. And it was through learning. And that's how I learned, by talking to the great writers that were there. And everybody was accessible back then. You could pick up what we had back then with something called the Yellow Pages. And you go and you go on Yellow Pages and it said, Hal Prince. And you call Hal Prince and then have a meeting with Hal Prince. So that often happened back then.

I find the educational system is a little crowded. You know what I mean? I wish there was room for more one-on-one, as opposed to classes of 32 or 37, trying to vie for things. I think that that's very, very tough. I've taught a number of times at certain schools. I did a tenure at Pace University, for instance, working with students there. I was a resident artist there. I loved every single second of it. I tell you, I loved every single second of it all. And I love the attention that the students got at that university. And the kids, the talent level was breathtaking. It would take my breath away every time I'd go to one of the classes and see what they were working on. And I put together a show for them based on all my trunk songs. I called it Michael John's Dead Babies. And it was just, the kids were brilliant.

[28:15] Michael John LaChiusa: It's a tricky title, huh? Michael John's Dead Babies. That one's really going to bring in the crowds.

[28:24] Travis Leland: It did. It did. But those kids and how they were schooled and how they learned to be great interpreters of song and dancers as well, I was deeply impressed with that program. And so there's that. I've also been in other programs that were not that. And a lot of political bullshit and a lot of sick, I think sick political bullshit went on for a lot of students and cost them a lot of money. There can be that. And I think it's a matter of the luck of the draw sometimes, right? I mean, education can be that. Do you need a college education? Of course, if you have the opportunity to go to school, absolutely go to school. You'll need that degree. You'll need to have it not just for your major, but for maybe discovering something else.

And also to the networking potential of all that is deeply, deeply essential to having a career in this business, to network. And when you, which is a master's in musical theater writing, we have so many applicants for that program. I mean, I'm wondering who the hell wants to grow up and write musicals? Geez, you know, it's just like the stupidest thing on the planet. Right. But at the same time, it's also one of the most beautiful things to do. And if you can get good at it and you enjoy doing it, it's something that is actually a necessity. I mean, musicals have never died out and they go through different things. We do have our, you know, you know, times where the time is right to explore deeper subjects.

And then we have times where all anybody wants is Mamma Mia, you know what I mean? So to not disparage that show at all, which is a very fun put together show, by the way. So, you know, I think the colleges are important and universities are important. I advocate for that. But again, I'm not a performer, so I would like to hear from Travis what he feels about it.

[30:28] Travis Leland: I am, I'm very mixed about the subject, honestly. You know, I did go to UCLA, but I got a B.A. in acting and playwriting. I double majored there. And my college experience was a little different than a lot of people who I went to school with, because before UCLA, I actually had gone to AMDA in Los Angeles. So I studied there, you know, the hardcore, like nine to five conservatory type training stuff. And I really feel like there I learned how to sing. I don't think I really knew how before. And I would say that if I walked out of that place with one tangible thing, it was that. And it was also the knowledge that I need more than just a conservatory training to be successful in this industry.

My first teacher there was Danny Gerwin, still is a nice friend and really took me aside at one point and said, hey, you should go to a real college. And I was like, oh, OK, cool. So he and his partner at the time, Hank, helped me apply to colleges because I was on my own. First person in my family to go to college. So I was sort of navigating all this stuff by myself in Los Angeles at 17, 18 years old. Right. So I got into UCLA and it was one of the only schools I got into. I got rejected from a whole bunch of them. And I was like, OK, well, if I got into UCLA, but not, you know, Fullerton, Cal State Fullerton, like something you're pointing me in that direction. Right. So I went to UCLA and I realized that I loved UCLA.

I loved the school. I loved all the experiences. I was in a fraternity. I feel like that really helped shape who I became, who I am. I learned a lot from a lot of different people. And I took a lot of crazy classes that I never thought I would be interested in. And I started writing when I was at UCLA. And I really, really fell in love with that almost more so than performing. And it's sort of been my saving grace because as an actor, I mean, we go through so many lulls in terms of employment and in between jobs. And when I first graduated, it was about a year and a half before I booked anything. And I was writing that whole time. I was writing plays and screenplays and shorts and all these things.

And my time at UCLA taught me how to be multifaceted and how to be more than just a performer, because I think nowadays you have to be. It's really rare that you are just an actor, just a singer, just a dancer. You have to be a multi-hyphenate in a way. Right.

[33:01] Travis Leland: So I definitely encountered a lot of the bullshit at UCLA and a lot of the teachers that thought that there it was their way or the highway. And, you know, I distinctly remember one of my teachers asking my opinion about an exercise we had done in class, my opinion. OK, and I explained to her how I was feeling about this exercise. And she looked at me and she was like, no, that's not right. And I was like, wait, what? This is how we're feeling about this is an opinion. This is an opinion. This is how it felt for me. I think at that point I was sort of like, OK, this that's bullshit, you know, and I have had tons of great teachers, you know, but I've also had a couple of not so great ones. So that's why I say I'm a little mixed on the higher education in terms of theater.

I think if you're going to be doing it, you've got to be in a program that encourages you to do stuff, to create stuff all the time, all different shapes and forms and schools that punish students for doing outside shows like that never sat well with me. I booked my first professional job right after See What I Want to See. And I was doing a musical at the Geffen. So right down the street from UCLA and all of my professors were like, well, you got to keep up with your classwork and you got to do this. I'm like, I'm working. I'm a working actor right now for 10 weeks or whatever. And you're still giving me shit about this. What's the point of being in this program then if you're not going to encourage and support something like this?

[34:28] Michael John LaChiusa: So that's my two cents on college education.

[34:33] Travis Leland: With that being said, too, I had an incredible time. I created a lot of great stuff. I met some lifelong friends. Everyone in our cast of See What I Want to See. We're still incredibly close. I sent them a text this morning that said, hey, guess who I'm having a call with today? Most of them, Hunter, Angelica, Rachel and Jordan live in New York. Nick Tubbs and I live out here in L.A.

[34:50] Michael John LaChiusa: No way. Nick Tubbs. I didn't know that he was in that.

[34:56] Travis Leland: Nick Tubbs played the Mark Kudish part.

[35:02] Michael John LaChiusa: Oh, how cool. So, you know, lifelong bonds and friendships from this show that I didn't know anybody, you know, and all four of them had known each other. And if it wasn't for UCLA and the crazy students who were so, you know, like, let's make something. Let's put on a show in this ancient building that's been on campus since the 20s. You know, we converted this old I don't even know what it was. It was like a ballroom, basically, that we had we built this little proscenium, you know, and it was very makeshift college production, you know, the best kind, the best kind of theater.

[35:32] Travis Leland: Yeah.

[35:37] Michael John LaChiusa: There was a young director here in town for I think was the director of skill or fellowships, and he wanted to do Hello Again with five characters. And I thought, how are you going to do that? How are you going to do that? And then he told me and I saw the production and I was pleasantly surprised and engaged by so much of it. And I thought it was intelligent. And I thought that experiment worked for me. And I thought, very good, good choices. It did not do any harm to the piece whatsoever. In fact, it lightened a couple things in the piece, which I was very happy about. So that was really lovely to see that.

[36:09] Travis Leland: That's funny that you bring that up, you know, shrinking a cast size of your shows. Has anyone ever come to you and said they want to do See What I Want to See with 12 people?

[36:14] Michael John LaChiusa: No.

[36:16] Travis Leland: Well, you know, to do the core five and act one, the core five and act two, and then two separate actors for Kessa and Marito.

[36:24] Michael John LaChiusa: Oh, I guess you could do that. I guess. I mean, I don't think I would have an objection to that at all. I mean, when I go see it, I find there's something I think there's something more fun for the actors in the piece to have those double roles because there's certain shadings that are echoed in each one.

[37:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome back to "A Musical Theatre Podcast." Today, we are diving into the fascinating world of "See What I Wanna See" with our special guests, Travis Leland and Michael John LaChiusa.

[37:44] Travis Leland: I'm so excited to be here and talk about this incredible musical.

[38:14] Michael John LaChiusa: Thank you for having us, Jeff. It's always a pleasure to discuss this work.

[38:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Michael, your writing style in "See What I Wanna See" is so complex and layered. Can you tell us a bit about your inspiration for the show?

[39:14] Michael John LaChiusa: Absolutely. The show explores the nature of truth and perception, which are themes that resonate deeply in our current society. I wanted to create a narrative that reflects those existential questions.

[39:44] Travis Leland: And the music really captures that complexity. Each character has their own unique sound that reflects their perspective on truth.

[39:55] Michael John LaChiusa: Yes, the musicality is designed to enhance the storytelling. I wanted the audience to feel the emotional weight of each character's journey.

[40:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's fascinating how the music intertwines with the narrative. Travis, what has been your experience performing in this show?

[40:16] Travis Leland: Performing in "See What I Wanna See" has been transformative for me. The emotional depth of the characters allows for a rich exploration of their motivations.

[40:26] Michael John LaChiusa: Each performance brings something new, and I love seeing how different actors interpret the material.

[40:37] Travis Leland: Exactly! It's a collaborative effort that makes every show unique.

[40:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Michael, how do you approach writing for such diverse characters?

[40:58] Michael John LaChiusa: I try to immerse myself in their perspectives. Understanding their backgrounds and desires helps me create authentic voices for each character.

[41:08] Travis Leland: And that authenticity really shines through in the performances. It makes it easier for us as actors to connect with the material.

[41:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What do you think audiences take away from "See What I Wanna See"?

[41:29] Michael John LaChiusa: I hope they leave with a greater understanding of the complexities of truth and how it can vary from person to person.

[41:40] Travis Leland: And I think it encourages conversations about our own perceptions and beliefs.

[41:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's such an important message. Michael, can you share a bit about the creative process behind the music?

[42:01] Michael John LaChiusa: The music often reflects the emotional state of the characters. I wanted to create a soundscape that was both haunting and beautiful.

[42:11] Travis Leland: It definitely achieves that! The melodies linger in your mind long after the show ends.

[42:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's a testament to your talent, Michael. What do you think sets "See What I Wanna See" apart from other musicals?

[42:32] Michael John LaChiusa: I believe its exploration of subjective truth is what makes it unique. It challenges the audience to think critically about their own beliefs.

[42:43] Travis Leland: Plus, the structure of the show is unconventional, which keeps the audience engaged and guessing.

[42:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a great point. It really does keep you on your toes.

[43:04] Michael John LaChiusa: I'm glad to hear that! I wanted to create something that felt fresh and innovative.

[43:14] Travis Leland: And you succeeded! The show is a beautiful blend of storytelling and music.

[43:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you both for sharing your insights today. It's been a pleasure discussing "See What I Wanna See" with you.

[43:35] Michael John LaChiusa: Thank you for having us, Jeff. It's been a joy.

[43:46] Travis Leland: Yes, thank you! I hope everyone gets a chance to experience this incredible musical.

[43:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely! And to our listeners, be sure to follow us on social media for more great content.

[44:07] Michael John LaChiusa: And don't forget to support your local theatre!

[44:17] Travis Leland: Yes! Theatre is such an important part of our culture.

[44:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you for being part of this wonderful podcasting community.

[44:38] Michael John LaChiusa: We appreciate it!

[44:49] Travis Leland: Until next time, keep celebrating the magic of musical theatre!

[44:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: See you next time!

[48:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome back to "A Musical Theatre Podcast." Today, we're diving into the fascinating world of "See What I Wanna See" with our special guests, Travis Leland and Michael John LaChiusa.

[49:29] Travis Leland: Thanks for having me, Jeff. I'm really excited to talk about this show.

[49:59] Michael John LaChiusa: It's great to be here. "See What I Wanna See" is such a unique piece, and I'm looking forward to discussing it.

[50:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely! Michael, your writing style in this musical is incredibly complex. Can you share a bit about your inspiration for the show?

[50:59] Michael John LaChiusa: The inspiration came from a variety of sources, including a short story by Ryunosuke Akutagawa. I wanted to explore themes of truth and perception, which are so relevant today.

[51:30] Travis Leland: I think that’s what makes the show resonate with audiences. The way it challenges our understanding of truth is really powerful.

[51:47] Michael John LaChiusa: Yes, and the structure of the musical allows for different perspectives, which adds to that complexity.

[51:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It’s fascinating how you weave those narratives together. Travis, what has your experience been like performing in this show?

[52:29] Travis Leland: It's been a journey, for sure. Each character has their own truth, and finding that balance in performance is both challenging and rewarding.

[52:59] Michael John LaChiusa: And the music plays such a crucial role in conveying those emotions. I aimed to create a sound that reflects the inner turmoil of the characters.

[53:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The music is stunning. Can you tell us about your process when composing for this show?

[53:59] Michael John LaChiusa: I often start with the emotional core of a scene. From there, I build the music to enhance that feeling, allowing the characters' voices to shine through.

[54:29] Travis Leland: And it really does shine! The score is intricate, and it challenges us as performers to dig deep into our characters.

[55:00] Michael John LaChiusa: I appreciate that, Travis. It's important for me that the performers connect with the material on a personal level.

[55:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That connection is evident. What do you hope audiences take away from "See What I Wanna See"?

[55:21] Michael John LaChiusa: I hope they leave questioning their own perceptions of truth and reality. It's a conversation starter.

[55:29] Travis Leland: Definitely! I think it encourages people to reflect on their own experiences and beliefs.

[55:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's such a valuable takeaway. Thank you both for sharing your insights today.

[56:29] Michael John LaChiusa: Thank you for having us, Jeff. It's been a pleasure.

[56:59] Travis Leland: Yes, thank you! I hope everyone gets a chance to experience the show.

[57:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And to our listeners, be sure to check out "See What I Wanna See." It's a thought-provoking musical that you won't want to miss.

[57:19] Michael John LaChiusa: Thank you!

[57:49] Travis Leland: Thanks, everyone!

[58:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Until next time, keep celebrating the magic of musical theatre!

[58:49] Michael John LaChiusa: Bye!

[58:59] Travis Leland: Bye!

[59:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Take care!

[59:19] Michael John LaChiusa: Bye!

[59:29] Travis Leland: Bye!

[59:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thanks for listening!

[59:49] Michael John LaChiusa: Bye!

[59:59] Travis Leland: Bye!

[1:00:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: See you next time!

[1:00:19] Michael John LaChiusa: Bye!

[1:00:29] Travis Leland: Bye!

[1:00:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thanks for joining us!

[1:00:49] Michael John LaChiusa: Bye!

[1:00:57] Travis Leland: Bye!