This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Caseen Gaines: I can't recall if I mentioned this earlier in this call, but Langston Hughes chooses to attend Columbia University because he wants to see Florence Mills in SHUFFLE ALONG. Because he's heard about SHUFFLE ALONG and his father wants him to study abroad, I think in Germany. He's accepted into a school that is going to allow him to study abroad, and Langston Hughes gets into a massive fight with his father. In fact, his father cuts him off financially because Langston Hughes wants to go to New York so badly, just because he wants to see SHUFFLE ALONG. And ultimately becomes the Langston Hughes of Harlem that we all know.

[1:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we are fully celebrating Black History Month by discussing the 1921 musical SHUFFLE ALONG with a very, very special guest. His latest book, When Broadway Was Black, it's a great title, chronicles the story and significance of this show that somehow in the 20th century, you know, became largely a footnote instead of a monumental piece of theater, which is what it was. Anyway, everyone, please welcome author, director, and my personal fave, pop culture historian, Caseen Gaines! Hooray!

[1:48] Caseen Gaines: Thank you so much for having me on, and for the round of applause, my goodness! Well, I mean, you came to the right place. We are generous with our applause, though you 100% deserve it. Real quick, I just want to read some of the other titles of your books because listeners need to hear about this. Here we go. E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial, the Ultimate Visual History, Inside Pee-Wee's Playhouse, A Christmas Story, Behind the Scenes of a Holiday Classic, The Dark Crystal, the Ultimate Visual History, and We Don't Need Roads, the Making of the Back to the Future Trilogy. Now, I hope you don't take offense to this, but as one big old dork to another, please know you are safe and welcome here anytime.

[2:34] Caseen Gaines: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. My first book was Inside Pee-Wee's Playhouse, so I think when you're getting out of the gate writing a book about Pee-Wee Herman, I think I wear my dorkness on my sleeve.

[2:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're like, here and proud. Yes, absolutely. That's fantastic. So how did Shuffle Along become the next subject of a book, and have you always been a musical theater guy?

[3:00] Caseen Gaines: I've always been a musical theater guy. Yeah, I've always been a theater guy. You know, I think when I was little, I used to direct my cousins in productions of The Wizard of Oz. I'm pumping my chest like Celine Dion right now, because that is 100% my life. There's all sorts of camcorder video that every once in a while gets brought out at Family Functions. I'm saying I directed them, but I really just like Boston coerced them into doing these shows. But you know, I've always loved theater, and it's funny because even as you are talking about some of the other books that I've written, you know, I've written about theater in a number of them, actually. In the Pee-Wee Herman book, I wrote about Paul Rubin's Broadway show.

In A Christmas Story, I wrote about The Christmas Story musical. So, you know, musicals have always kind of been, or theater has always kind of been, lurking in the shadows of some of my other books. But you know, my main attraction to Shuffle Along really was, it was an amazing pop culture story. I mean, it's an amazing work of theater, and really significant to theater history. But I sort of became captivated that there was this show in 1921 that was so incredibly revolutionary, that Langston Hughes credits with kickstarting the Harlem Renaissance, this show single-handedly. And yet, so few people know about this show. And even people who perhaps have heard about it, or know about the show in relationship to maybe UB Blake, or something like that, I find that very few people really know a lot about the history of the show, in the same way that we can all rattle off some trivia about Oklahoma, or Rent, or Hamilton, or West Side Story.

There are stories that we sort of can tell about those shows, but there aren't a lot of stories that are in the general zeitgeist, I guess you can say, about Shuffle Along. And I sort of was like, well, that's not fair. That's not right. Yeah, that's got to change. So here I came.

[5:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, I'm so glad. Well, if I can confess, and I'm not proud of this, I am a lifelong musical theater nerd. I got a degree in it. And if I'm being completely honest, the first time I heard about Shuffle Along was in 2016.

[5:34] Caseen Gaines: Yeah.

[5:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is embarrassing to me.

[5:38] Caseen Gaines: You're in good company, because, you know, Audra McDonald, who starred in that 2016 Shuffle Along, said that the first time she heard about Shuffle Along was in 2015, when George C. Wolfe came to her and asked her to be his co-star.

[5:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, and Audra has, you know, more Tonys than anyone, right? So when you think about how something that should be, you know, something that can fill a 400-something page book can be alluded by so many other people that, you know, I'm a theater educator, you know, you have a degree in it, Audra is Audra, you know, it somehow evaded all of us. I think the blame is not on us, then. I think the blame is actually in other sectors. And the book sort of explores perhaps how that disappearance sort of came to be a little bit, too.

[6:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's interesting. You know what I'm thinking of, right? It's like the thing in school, like how everyone says, you know, if everyone fails, it's the teacher's fault. You know, kind of like that sort of thing. Like, if you and I and Audra all didn't know, like, that's it. We're the three most important.

[6:51] Caseen Gaines: I am honored and thrilled to be part of this godhead.

[6:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But in all seriousness, like, if we, from our various perches, hadn't heard about this show until the mid 2010s, then we can't be held responsible totally for that.

[7:10] Caseen Gaines: No, thank you. That makes me feel a little bit better.

[7:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There you go. That's what I'm here for. I'm like your, I'm your comfort counselor.

[7:18] Caseen Gaines: See, now you just earned your musical theater cred.

[7:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There you go.

[7:22] Caseen Gaines: Well done. One thing that just came to mind is how culturally I feel like the entire significance of Shuffle Along was somehow distilled to a singing, dancing frog in Looney Tunes doing...

[7:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm just all about Harry.

[7:41] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, exactly. Like, how on earth did that happen? My gosh. So, let's dive right in then. If we're going to talk about Shuffle Along, we've got to talk about the people who created it, right? UB Blake probably being the first.

[7:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[7:58] Caseen Gaines: Born 1887, died 1983. That man lived a long time.

[8:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: A long time.

[8:07] Caseen Gaines: And an American pianist, composer, we just mentioned, I'm just wild about Harry, maybe one of his most famous songs. Talk to me about UB Blake, because he's also no stranger to Broadway. In addition to Shuffle Along, there was a musical created about him and his work called UB! Which is also in musical theater history. But what do we need to know about this guy?

[8:35] Caseen Gaines: UB Blake is one of the great American composers. And what I love most about UB is that he never lost his ability to play. He was truly a child prodigy who was playing with all 10 fingers, with amazing dexterity, when he was still single digits years old. He cut his teeth playing in bordellos, writing his own music, and really was someone that I think just loved the art form. You know, some of the other creators of Shuffle Along were a little bit more business minded, a little bit more money minded. And UB was kind of the person who he would, you know, if you invited him over to play in your living room, he would, you know, he just loved playing. And I think, you know, he occupies an interesting sort of space in the book, because he lived so long and had this great resurgence in the mid 70s through the end of his life. He was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom, you know, shortly before he died.

[9:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: By Reagan, no less.

[9:45] Caseen Gaines: By Reagan, no less, right? Because he was so celebrated, he sort of had the ability to not only contribute to Black musical theater, or musical theater, through shows like Shuffle Along, but also, he got to see this resurgence with not only shows like Bubba and Brown Sugar, and certainly the UB Review, or rather, UB Review. But also, you know, he got to see Dreamgirls, he got to see The Wiz, he got, you know, like, he lived long enough to see all of this. And one of the things that really sort of stuck in his craw towards the end of his life was that so many people that actually did remember Shuffle Along helped to kind of put the show in the vault, because the show really was a museum piece, you know, by even the 1950s. And he felt like there were so many artists on Broadway that owed their careers, in a sense, to not only his work, but the work of people like him and his collaborators.

And yet, there was sort of a concerted effort to say, like, Blacks on stage begin after the 20s, after sort of the more antiquated material. And that really bothered him. But UB is a fantastic person. And I think that it's great that so many people do know who he is, because it provides an entry point into the story, I guess, like, come for UB and stay for everyone else, because I think the other creators are just as interesting as UB is.

[11:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely, absolutely. So, oh my gosh, so many, so much great stuff that just came spilling out of your mouth. So, in the 20s, we're talking, well, when did they start working on this? Is it the late teens?

[11:37] Caseen Gaines: No, they start working on this in 21, actually.

[11:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, in 21.

[11:45] Caseen Gaines: January of 21. And by April of 21, they're already on tour with the show. So, yeah.

[11:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. All right. So, 21, just to give everybody context, that's pre-Show Boat.

[11:54] Caseen Gaines: Right.

[11:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, in terms of book musicals, we are in the thick of a story really only serves the purpose of allowing us to sing and dance, right?

[12:06] Caseen Gaines: Right, right.

[12:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And also in the thick of huge follies-

[12:12] Caseen Gaines: Right.

[12:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Reviews. We're in vaudeville. We're still in minstrelsy, big time. And so, all of these influences, at least when I'm looking at the original Shuffle Along, are definitely influencing what this group of artists are trying to create to make a hit, because there's a little bit of all of that in Shuffle Along.

[12:27] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, it really was. In fact, they referred to it at the time as a musical melange. And it really was kind of a mix of a number of different things. In fact, the show was able to be put up so quickly because Cycil and Blake, the two composers, or the two-

[12:53] Caseen Gaines: Musicians, they pulled songs from their vaudeville act, and then Miller and Lyles adapted a show that they had already written for the Pekin Theatre in Chicago. And so they basically were able to just almost like the little rascals, like pull a little bit from what you have and what you have and you have, and they put together something that definitely is a book musical. But like you said, it's really a vehicle not only for the music, but I think what sort of differentiates SHUFFLE ALONG a little bit was that it also was a vehicle for comedy. So, you know, if you think about like comedy albums where, you know, there's a certain bit that maybe is like a, you know, seven or eight minute joke on set, the book of SHUFFLE ALONG also served as a vehicle to get to a Miller and Lyles bit that maybe they had done from their vaudeville show, but now that seven or eight minutes is being kind of repurposed for the plot of SHUFFLE ALONG.

So there was a lot going on, and what I think my favorite part of the show, and this was not uncommon for shows of the period, was the first act was about an hour, the second act was about 20 minutes, and then they would have a few minutes with Cycil and Blake, and literally they would, you know, wheel out a piano and they would just go into, you know, 20-25 minutes of their vaudeville act, you know?

[14:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and speaking to what you were saying about UB Blake being willing to play piano in somebody's living room, like how many Broadway composers do we have that were conducting every single, you know, performance of their show, and then would get up on stage and, like, host a sing-along for the last 20 minutes? Like, that's insane!

[14:41] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, it literally was a sing-along, because in the program for SHUFFLE ALONG, it actually, you know, would list, I'm just simply full of jazz, and which character sings that, you know, it would have that, just like regular playbills do, and the last number would say everybody, including you. That's who performed the last number. And so, literally everyone was invited to literally sing along.

[15:09] Caseen Gaines: So, let's talk about Miller and Lyles, because we already mentioned them, but I want people to know who they are. I didn't realize, you know, you talk about, like, a comedy bit that lasts seven or eight minutes, kind of like a who's on first, right? But what I didn't realize is, like, who's on first is basically Miller and Lyles.

[15:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[15:27] Caseen Gaines: So, these two guys, Flournoy Miller and Aubrey Lyles, were, like, the kings of Black comedy, and yet we don't really hear about them as much as, say, like, Burt Williams or... So, who were these guys, and why have we forgotten about them?

[15:47] Caseen Gaines: So, they were, like, amazingly... They were the top Black comedians of the day, just like you said, you know? And, you know, I'll be honest with you, you raise such a good question, because I don't even know if I've thought about it in the way that you just put it, where, you know, I think we know Williams and Walker, and, like, that duo comes to mind very easily, and yet Miller and Lyles, who had a longer career, and, you know, I don't know... I know this is maybe heresy to say, but I think when you look, kind of, note for note, I think it's fair to say that they had kind of a more decorated career than Williams and Walker. They wrote several shows, Broadway shows, starred in several Broadway shows. I mean, even before Shuffle Along, if their career ended before Shuffle Along, they would still be among the top Black comedy duos of that first half of the 20th century. And yet, they just aren't remembered that way, and it's hard for me to sort of know why that is.

[16:56] Caseen Gaines: I think part of it might be, you know, I was just watching Stormy Weather over the weekend, and Floyd Owen Miller is in that film as himself, and he does some of his Blackface comedy routine in that film. He's one of two people in the entire film. I think it's an all Black cast, or certainly primarily Black cast. I think it's all Black. He's one of two people that are in Blackface in this film from 1943, and the other person who's in Blackface is the other actor who's acting opposite him. And I think because Miller occupies a space where he was in film and television, because he was a writer for Amos and Andy, Amos and Andy largely lifted from the Miller and Lyles Act, and then Miller ended up being a writer for Amos and Andy.

Because more of his work is documented in a way that, understandably so, makes people uncomfortable, I think it's sort of easy to push him aside in the same way that people like Stepin Fetchit, you know, people might know the name, but people don't certainly celebrate him as a Black performer. In fact, a lot of people look at Stepin Fetchit as someone who best not be spoken about.

[18:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I don't think I know who that is, by the way.

[18:28] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, so he was, Stepin Fetchit was his stage name. His actual name is criminally eluding me right now, unfortunately. But he was a character who was a very negative portrayal of Black people. He was lazy, he was shiftless, watermelon, you know, just like really negative stereotypes. But it was comedy, and he was a big star of the day. And while I'm not saying these are portrayals that I think we should be showing schoolchildren, per se, in every school across the nation, I do think, though, there is importance in saying look at what these talented performers had to do at this time in order to just have their talents noticed. You know, in some cases, these were great singers, great dancers. Miller's comedy is very clever, even if it is humor that does not hold up in the 21st century. And I think, as sort of proof of what I'm saying, a lot of Black people in 1921 really enjoyed Miller and Lyles's comedy. You know, in the same way that-

[19:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It wasn't just for white people to-

[19:45] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, no, it definitely wasn't just for white people. And I think, you know, even in the same way that, you know, we can look back at, you know, look, I don't necessarily want to, yeah, I guess I'll name names. But I think if you can look back at, like, you know, Raw and Delirious from Eddie Murphy, you know, in the 80s, and cringe at some of that stuff, cringe at it. But there were people in the 80s that saw no issue with it, you know? Times change. And so Miller and Lyles really did perform to the conventions of the day. Williams and Walker also were comedians that wore blackface. But I think because there's less video, less audio, like, you know, it doesn't get remembered in the same way.

[20:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Gotcha. Because like you said, Miller's on film doing it.

[20:35] Caseen Gaines: Right, right. Just for some of us who might not understand, why would Black people have to wear blackface to do comedy?

[20:48] Caseen Gaines: It was really just a convention of the day. But in the beginning of Black performers wearing blackface on stage, it was actually sort of a form of rebellion. And I know that seems like completely backwards. But the thought process was that there were white performers and comedians that were making money at the expense of Black people by making their culture, by, you know, playing into stereotypes. And Black performers that were underpaid, underplaced on the bill, underbooked, they were able to go to white theater owners and say, look, you know, get rid of that guy. I can do his act better than he can do his act. And they would end up on the bill and they would get maybe not the same salary that the white actor would get, but very close to it.

They would get more than they would get paid, you know, singing, you know, just a song or something like that. Frederick Douglass sort of puts this best where he said, you know, he really derided the use of blackface and that blackface was a convention in any form. But he also felt that there was something to be gained anytime Black artists were able to perform in front of white people, because even if it was subconscious or deep in the recesses of their mind, they would have to acknowledge the artistry of these Black people, even if it was under burnt cork. So it's a complex thing. And I think, you know, while not blackface and not the same, you know, I don't want to equate these two things necessarily, but I mean, there are still all sorts of concessions that people from marginalized communities have to make in order to gain entry and acceptance into the quote unquote mainstream all the time. You know, I mean, how many, is it ever appropriate for an audience to be expected to derive humor from a man in a dress, you know?

[23:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[23:02] Caseen Gaines: You know, it's a completely valid question. And I, like I said, about just times changing, I think so much theater or art, entertainment, film, television, it's not hard to see how in even 10 years time, some of the things that we perhaps rushed to go see or listen to will be things that we go, I can't believe that people in 2023 were okay with that taking place.

[23:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. And that's the piece of humble pie that progress is always serving us.

[23:39] Caseen Gaines: Yep, yep, yep. If we're lucky, right?

[23:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: If we're lucky, amen.

[23:43] Caseen Gaines: Because that means we're going, we're reflective, yeah.

[23:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're exactly right. All right. I don't know if we've said this yet, but Shuffle Along was written by an all-Black team starring an all-Black cast, which means that while Miller and Lyles were in Blackface as the quote-unquote comedic characters, they were surrounded by Black actors, actresses, dancers who were not in Blackface.

[24:08] Caseen Gaines: Right, right. And in fact, you know, Cicely and Blake always performed in tuxedos, actually, you know, which is sort of fascinating. You know, they were very dignified characters. There were suffragette characters in the show. I always feel weird saying this, but it was an actually quite progressive show for 1921, despite the trappings of racial stereotypes. That's not to dismiss the racial stereotypes, but in so many facets of that show. I mean, you're talking, it's a show that the plot centers on a mayoral election, where the three candidates for mayor are all Black. And this is taking place in an America that is, you know, 30-something years pre-Selma, pre-the Voting Rights Act. You know, Black people did not have the right to vote, and yet there is an election taking place at the heart of this musical.

[25:21] Caseen Gaines: See, that's the kind of context that is so important, because you're absolutely right. And I didn't even think twice about it. I'm like, of course there's, you know, three mayoral candidates and they all happen to be Black. But that information completely changes everything.

[25:48] Caseen Gaines: And you move it by three years in either direction, and I don't think it hits the same way. And so SHUFFLE ALONG just happened to be right in the pocket of what was going on culturally in 1921. Fascinating stuff. Okay, we're gonna go through the show a little bit so that people get an idea of what the story consisted of, and the placement of songs, and what songs are involved. Before we do that, though, the process of getting SHUFFLE ALONG on Broadway, to Broadway, and becoming a hit, mind you, is as interesting a story as anything that was happening on stage. And that's why in 2016, instead of reviving SHUFFLE ALONG, a show that just would not work for a modern audience, George C. Wolfe, Savion Glover, and a group of incredible artists decided to create SHUFFLE ALONG, or The Making of the Musical Sensation of 1921 and All That Followed, which was in a sense reviving the show, but showing a behind-the-scenes look at how it all came to be. Can you take us through a little bit about how the show came to be?

[27:00] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, so Miller and Lyles and Cicelyn Blake happened to meet at this NAACP benefit in Philadelphia, and this is at the end of 1920. And what was so unusual about them meeting was they both were incredibly active on the vaudeville circuit, but no vaudeville theater would book more than one Black act a night. So they never actually, they had heard of each other, they knew of each other, but they had never actually met, because they were just sort of crisscrossing the same exact circuit. In fact, there's a moment in the book, which is quite fascinating, where Cicelyn Blake played a theater almost literally the weekend before Miller and Lyles moved in. They could have left a note for each other, they were like ships passing in the night.

[27:54] Caseen Gaines: Ships passing, exactly. Yeah, so, but they happened to meet, and Miller and Lyles really were the ones that had this idea for a Broadway show, but they knew that they wanted to do a musical, but they didn't write music, so they knew Cicelyn Blake were people that could do it. Cicelyn Blake—by the way, we haven't discussed yet Noble Cicelyn, I was planning on bringing him up later, but now's as good a chance as any, the lyricist to Eubie Blake, but also a composer in his own right, yes?

[28:21] Caseen Gaines: Yes, and he was a great lyricist, super smart. And, you know, he and Eubie were kind of like the odd couple, because Noble Cicelyn was college educated, was very straight and proper, and really refined and suave and debonair, and Eubie was not at all. I mean, Eubie was, like I said, he cut his teeth playing in bordellos, and was happy to do it, and not classy bordellos either. But he was happy to do it, so they ended up being this great pair. And the one thing I will say about Eubie, though, was that while he was of a lower class and a lower education level, he was actually expelled from school pretty early on, he was a lover of music, and he loved Leslie Stewart and Victor Herbert, and so it wasn't that he wasn't a smart guy, he just wasn't an educated guy, you know?

And there's a difference, there's a difference. So they were an amazing pair, and Miller and Lyles knew that Cicelyn and Blake, you know, had the goods. Cicelyn and Blake had always wanted to do something on a bigger stage, and felt like Miller and Lyles, if they were going to do a musical theater piece, those two would be the ones to sort of partner up with, and they sort of said like, oh yeah, we should talk, we should collaborate, you know, in the way that people do, you know? You see someone from high school, and you sort of say like, oh yeah, let's get coffee one day, and then you have to do, but then, except for everyone from my high school, you know, all my friends are still standing, but you know, they happened to meet literally on a street corner in New York in January, as crazy as it sounds, and Miller says, you know, look, I know you guys said that you would do this with me, I kind of have this idea, and he described the basic plot of Shuffle Along, and they end up, you know, joining forces, and they go on what is sort of described as a graveyard tour through New Jersey and rural Pennsylvania, and it's only, it's a really short tour, it's maybe only like six weeks or so, but they just hemorrhage money, and part of the reason is because while the shows always had great audiences, in terms of audience reaction, they had wonderful press, my god, the press clippings from this graveyard tour is amazing, but they never played the same place like more than two nights, so even if they got great press, they were already off, you know, another 40 miles somewhere else, before they could sell out another week of performances, so by the time they got back to New York, they were $21,000 in debt, and that's $21,000 in 1921 money, so $21,000 is a lot for me right now, to even comprehend, right?

[31:16] Caseen Gaines: It's a lot, it's a lot, so they kind of put it all on the line, they were all in, John and Harry Court, who are sort of notable Broadway producers, the Court Theater was recently renamed for James Earl Jones a couple months ago, John and Harry Court were kind of their benefactors in New York, they co-owned the show, along with the Quartet there, and they put them up in a theater on 63rd Street. 63rd Street is outside of the traditional theater district, but because they had a large enough capacity, and because they renovated the theater to essentially make it a Broadway house, and because they demanded a Broadway ticket price, it qualified as Broadway, actually, and so people came, and it's, you know, 63rd Street is a tiny, tiny street, it's really, really small, if anyone's listening in New York, I encourage you to find 63rd Street, because I'm almost certain few people have gone there knowingly or willingly, it's about, no exaggeration, it's about a block long, because it's in between Central Park and then the compound, compound, I'm kind of using air quotes, that is Lincoln Center, so you have, so it's a really small stretch of street, but it was, in 1921, the hottest street, and what's interesting is it used to be a two-way street, but the New York traffic division actually turned it into a one-way street, because the traffic became so congested in and around the time that Shuffle Along was playing, that just to help with the flow of traffic, they had to move it to a one-way street, yeah.

[33:16] Caseen Gaines: Wow, that's crazy, so there were clubs and things as well on that street, in addition to this huge hit of a show. So there were clubs and things in the area, and what people ended up doing was right after the show, they would literally either get in their cars or they would walk uptown, there were clubs around the Columbus Circle area, certainly in Harlem, but yeah, Shuffle Along ended up being, I think partially because it was 20 streets removed from the heart of Times Square, if you were on 63rd Street to see Shuffle Along and you were like, okay, well, the show's over, now what am I gonna do? They just continued the party in that direction as opposed to that direction.

[34:01] Caseen Gaines: Wow, how cool. It was the beginning of kind of white people in mass discovering Harlem in that way. Shuffle Along, not the first musical written by an all-black team, but it hadn't been done for a while, I believe like a decade or so. It becomes a huge, huge hit, runs for over 500 performances, which at that time was unheard of. I mean, not unheard of, but very rare. And one thing that we recently did a Showboat episode and one thing that the little nugget that came from that that I loved so much was that even though Showboat was this huge monumental hit, there weren't any other Showboats that came out after it. Like it was an outlier and that's kind of why we think of Oklahoma as the beginning of musical theater is because after Oklahoma, everyone was trying to make Oklahoma. Now, if we kind of look through that paradigm a little bit at Shuffle Along, once Shuffle Along was a big old hit, there were a lot of other Shuffle Alongs that came along.

[35:57] Caseen Gaines: There were, and that I think is, you know, when we talk about like when Broadway was black, it's not just about Shuffle Along, but there was this great period really from like 1921 to 1928 where there were so many all black shows. You know, you can make a pretty convincing argument and I think it's not hyperbolic to say that there were more black actors on Broadway in 1928 than there are today. And I know that sounds like a wild statement to make. When there are these big shows with cast members of 50, 60 people and they're all black cast, I mean, you know, it was quite a thing to behold. And so many of them were really poor imitators of Shuffle Along, but you did have some really interesting shows in there like a show called Run and Wild, which also starred Miller and Miles, which actually gives us the Charleston.

That dance and that song comes from the show Run and Wild, which was the very next show that they did, that Miller and Miles did after Shuffle Along. So they had, the show itself, funnily enough, it wasn't a huge hit, but it still gave this kind of great cultural moment. So yeah, it was a wonderful period. And then it all went away.

[36:33] Caseen Gaines: And is it because, I don't even know quite the question to ask, is it because this formula, the Shuffle Along formula becomes too offensive or too irrelevant to continue on? And so then instead of creating something new, we just all, we go back to all white musicals or, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not totally sure.

[36:52] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, I think it's a little bit, but I also think the Shuffle Along formula becomes overworn.

[37:03] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, totally. In a weird sort of way, Shuffle Along became such a hit because it was so novel. I mean, again, look at A Rent, look at West Side Story, look at these moments that were really sort of significant in the last, I'd say 30 years, maybe. If every show was looking at a moment in history, in American history, and superimposing black and brown people over top it and hip hop music, you would go like, I don't need the eighth version of Hamilton, but now—

[37:40] Caseen Gaines: Oversaturated. Yeah, it was oversaturated. And I think it became easy to sort of say, well, those shows are kind of novelties, even though Shuffle Along wasn't necessarily created to be a novelty, but it became easy to sort of say like, those are novelty shows. And now, kind of like you alluded to, now we're going to get back to the real theater.

[38:06] Caseen Gaines: I also think there was just a difference in terms of resources. A lot of the shows that had primarily white cast just had the ability to have bigger sets, bigger costumes.

[38:22] Caseen Gaines: And producers willing to make that happen.

[38:25] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, yeah. And I think you really started to see when you had four all-black Broadway shows running at the same time, who's investing heavily in those? You don't know which one's going to be a hit, if any, so the budget kind of gets slashed.

[38:41] Caseen Gaines: The talent pool is spread thin. It was, it's sort of unfortunate. And I'm certainly not saying like, well, then there should have just only been one or two. But I think it's unfortunate that like, they weren't able to sort of figure out in a way how to, it's like superhero films, you know what I mean? Like, it's like, we still do this, you know, we still do this, where we say, like, well, that works. So now we're gonna just, how many different iterations of, you know, Batman do we need? And if I see his parents get killed one more time, so help me. I promise you, you will. So yeah, I think that's part of what ends up happening. Yeah. This could be controversial, but I think it's worth bringing up.

You know, with the racial reckoning happening during the pandemic, when Broadway came back, there was this concerted effort to see something new and different. And I'm very grateful for that. And also recognize that it couldn't have come at a worse economic opportunity for Broadway. There, like who knew if audiences were even going to come back to the theater. So we have this huge influx of diversity on Broadway, nobody to go see it. And then ultimately, the receipts show that it, quote unquote, didn't work. I don't know, that's my fear. Is it a legit fear, do you think?

[40:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think it's a very legit fear. And it's something that I think about and talk about, you know, all the time, because we had seen this, we have seen this before 100 years ago. It's funny that you're mentioning this, because Shuffle Along was produced in the aftermath of the Spanish flu pandemic. Broadway was not dark when Shuffle Along reopened, but it was still struggling to find its footing. It had kind of recently reopened. And so Shuffle Along ends up being this show that reinstates tourism, you know, that really ends up being this flagship Broadway show that everyone wants to see. It's a real attraction. And it brings back theater in a really significant way. And you know, I don't think that it's wrong to say, if you don't have, whether it was Shuffle Along or some other show, but you needed to have a show that happened to be a low budget show, like Shuffle Along was, that because it was low budget, and because maybe it was placed up on 63rd Street, they were able to sort of like take risks and break the mold.

You know, Ziegfeld's Follies weren't going to do it. You know, George White shows weren't going to do it. Those reviews weren't going to do it. You know, you needed something kind of novel to wake people up and bring them back to the theater. And so I do worry about exactly what you're talking about. You know, this moment for representation on stage 100 years ago, did coincide with a really horrible economy. And that's why it was so unusual that Shuffle Along ran 504 performances. But it's sad that a strange loop is closed. You know, that the reigning best musical is not going to still be running by the next Tony Awards. Like that to me is like mind blowing. But also, when you talk about what made Shuffle Along so successful, I also think that this moment of greater representation has to come with more shows that appeal to black and brown audiences that are accessible to the general population.

And I love a strange loop. And I don't have a single bad word to say about a strange loop. But you know, when you have a Pulitzer Prize winning book that is exploring and living in the space of, you know, very deep themes and reflective themes, you know, that's not going to be a show for everyone. You know, you know, Jeremy O. Harris's work is not going to be for everyone. You know, it's great that they get to make it on stage. But it's not Beetlejuice. You know, I mean, it's not Moulin Rouge. You know, it's not the show. It's not a superhero movie, you know, like, and I, I know, you know, I don't mean this facetiously, but it's like, where, where is like, waiting to exhale the musical? You know, where is like, gosh, I just, I just melted.

Oh, my god. Like, where, like, where are these shows that, and The Color Purple is a great example of like, I think, a really well done musical. But they're all these things that are like, they're so heavy. You know, The Color Purple's a heavy, heavy, heavy material. As, and I know this is like, heresy. Like, this is where everyone like, turns off the podcast. But like, you know, this is controversial, but it's worth exploring. But it's, but it's worth exploring, because if Beetlejuice gets to be legitimized on the Broadway stage, and I, this is nothing against Beetlejuice. I thought the musical was great. But if Beetlejuice deserves to be legitimized on the Broadway stage, then like, why can't Friday be legitimized on the Broadway stage?

You know what I mean? Like, like, there are shows that can be adapted from, quote unquote, frivolous comedies. That's fine. We do it all the time on Broadway. But, but when it's like, you know, theater by Black playwrights, it's all very like, highbrow. It's, it's, it's theater, primarily for white audiences, you know, like, if we're being honest about it, you know. So I would hope that in this moment, we are, as we are expanding, that the expansion also includes bringing in new theater audiences, just like Beetlejuice brought in, you know, how many people, or rather, for how many people was Beetlejuice their first show? I bet a whole lot of people, you know, and we need to think about representation on stage, being shows that do that, and hopefully in ways that are not just kind of like musical biopics, you know, but also like narrative driven, maybe things based on intellectual property. You know, I know, I know IP is heavy in theater right now. And it's kind of like a bad word to say that we should have more of it. But I think there's a reason why it works, you know, making money.

[45:47] Caseen Gaines: Yeah. And we're filled with controversy now. No, but like, I'm also really glad, like, what, what better episode to have this conversation than Shuffle Along? Because like, what an example in, in its own way, in its own time, in its own little, you know, kind of bubble. Ooh, that's fascinating. Okay, let's talk through the show really quick. When Shuffle Along begins, we're meeting three characters, essentially three major characters who are all running for mayor in this town. What is the town called again?

[46:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Gymtown.

[46:25] Caseen Gaines: Which I mean, yeah, come on. That's, that's pointed, right?

[46:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right, right. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a generic antebellum, you know, town.

[46:36] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, exactly. So we got the two characters played by Miller and Lyles were named Sam Peck and Steve Jenkins. They work at like the local grocery store. They're very corrupt, but comedically so.

[46:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, yes.

[46:53] Caseen Gaines: And then the third candidate is this like very upstanding good intentioned guy by the name of Harry Walton. Is that right?

[47:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, right.

[47:04] Caseen Gaines: The whole plot of Shuffle Along is following these three characters. Whenever we're with the two grocers, it's hilarity, Miller and Lyles, insanity. And whenever we're with Harry Walton, we honestly get a big peek into UB Blake's love of operetta because these love songs that he has with this female character are straight out of like the Victor Herbert book of music.

[47:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I love that you highlighted that because, you know, one of the kind of plot points of Shuffle Along is Jesse Williams and Harry Walton want to become married, but they won't be able, Harry won't have Jesse's father's blessing unless he becomes mayor.

[47:56] Caseen Gaines: Unless he wins the election.

[47:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. So there are stakes for him besides, you know, just him being upstanding. So the song I'm Just Wild About Harry, he is the Harry at the center of that song. But also there was this beautiful song called Love Will Find A Way, which was this great duet. And what's interesting about this song is that it was really controversial because it was a really early portrayal of Black people just expressing genuine emotion for each other, love for each other on stage that wasn't being played for laughs. So if you think about it, you know, Black women were certainly permitted on stage playing, you know, asexual homemakers, playing, you know, sexually hungry vixens, playing domineering wives and things like that.

But just I love you, you love me, you know, not to get us in trouble with the Barney folks in terms of copyright here, but just having that sort of exchange was considered incredibly taboo. I think it just points to kind of the way that Black performers were willing to push, push, push, because, you know, our done well is about pushing, right? I mean, you know, we were just talking about A Strange Loop, and I do agree that it is important. I want to see, it's not that I don't want to see A Strange Loop exist, I want to see what's offered expanded. But A Strange Loop is certainly a show that pushes the bounds of musical theater in all the best ways. Yeah, in all the ways. And Shuffle Along, in a different way, was doing that as well.

[49:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so cool. Okay, let's talk a little bit about Love Will Find A Way, which is this love song, like the first love song between two Black characters. And as I was listening to it, preparing for this episode, it has, like, the traditional verse before the refrain, you know, that we hear in old-timey songs. I think, like, maybe the most famous is Someone to Watch Over Me, right? There's a saying, oh, it says that love is blind before we get into there's somebody I'm longing to see. And the same thing in this song. The first part, however, has so much tension. So much, in fact, that when they finally hit the refrain to say, like, I am in love and everything's great, there is such a relief that, like, came into my ears that I tried to put myself back into the audience in 1921.

And I imagined everybody applauding. You know, and this happens. You see older clips of Broadway, and you're like, wow, they would applaud for anything. They still do today. Exactly. Now we just stand up for everything. But back then, you really did empathically show your relief when the writing took you to a new place. And so when this love section hits, and you feel that surge, I then started thinking, okay, what's the modern equivalent of this? And don't laugh at me, but I went to rave music, and I thought about, like, when the bass drops, and everything is like, right? And everything.

[51:34] Caseen Gaines: It's like building up to this one big thing so that everybody in the club or wherever they may be, the EDM Festival, knows exactly to like have that unified release, that unified reaction. And I'm like, that's exactly, we're doing the exact same thing that was being done back then. I love that. That's, I think that's a perfect, that is a really good comparison. And I think, yeah, like I know exactly what you're talking about. Like those club mixes that like just take you right there. And like, it's like for a moment you're suspended. Like everyone is just holding their breath collectively. And then there's the release, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's such a great observation. And I think what's interesting, you know, Yubi Blake is, I found an interview from him where he says that the music of SHUFFLE ALONG did so much to reinstate the humanity of Black people for so many in the audience.

You know, that when you listen to LOVE WILL FIND A WAY, which as you noted, you know, is very much so in the Victor Herbert style, it's almost impossible. Well, I shouldn't say almost impossible, but I mean, you'd really have to be a specific kind of person to hear that song and not be emotionally affected by it. And as much as you get that from a recording, as you said, you know, when you transport yourself to that place in 1921, and you're the first audience to hear these two, you know, a beautiful tenor and a beautiful soprano singing this beautiful, you know, song in the European tradition of musical theater, operetta, how could you not, even if just for three minutes, how could you not believe that Black people and white people are equally talented in a number of ways, or talented in maybe, you know, different ways that have value and have worth and have talent and are deserving of being seen on stage and heard and performing and, you know, commanding a top ticket price?

Like, how can you not have that proven to you in that moment? It's so masterful what they did with this show, because before, you know, if you're in that 1921 audience, before you start to think too much about that, because there is a danger to, you know, being Black artists and thinking that you're too good, or Black people, and thinking that you're too good, or that you're deserving of too much, or, you know, like, not necessarily the safest thing in the world, in all parts of the country. It's very vulnerable.

[54:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, but you follow up Love Will Find a Way with Miller and Lyles.

[54:36] Caseen Gaines: Here come the two guys in blackface.

[54:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, and so you have that sort of roller coaster, or more, not a roller coaster, but maybe more of a seesaw, right? You know, you have that balance, and that's what enabled a show like Shuffle Along to tour the entire North America, including the Deep South. I mean, to take this show into South Carolina, into, you know, Tennessee, into rural Florida, you know, into Georgia, you know, it's amazing to think that this show was able to tour the Deep South. But because there were aspects that those audiences would find funny, and there were things that, you know, a more sophisticated audience in, you know, even Canada would find beautiful and progressive.

[55:26] Caseen Gaines: Yeah. Yeah, I guess that kind of variety is really all over the score, all over this music. I think of the very opening number, which is called Election Day.

[55:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[55:38] Caseen Gaines: And you have, it's honestly a really great opening number. But it also has so many great little bits and bobs that an audience can connect to. There's a little bit of Oling Zine in there.

[55:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[55:52] Caseen Gaines: You know, he's such a great weaver of these different styles, I think, with the audience in mind.

[56:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's a great little wink. And I think Noble Sissle's lyrics, really, and sense of humor, just like you were saying, really kind of come across. I love that number. It's not a, it's not a, I wouldn't say it's a hit from Shuffle Along. You know, there are other...

[56:16] Caseen Gaines: You can't sing it. Like, I couldn't hum it for you. But I can tell you, it's a great number. It's a great, it's a great little opening number. So I appreciate you bringing that up. Because if people haven't heard it, they should. When they're done, when they're done, they should go listen to it.

[56:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Some of the other songs, once again, show in such great variety. There is a character named Ruth, who is married to one of the grocers, right?

[56:39] Caseen Gaines: She's, Ruth is actually a flapper. She's like a, like a little flapper character.

[56:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, okay.

[56:45] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, so she's not married to any one of them. There is a character who is married to one of the grocers, but it's not Ruth.

[56:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's not Ruth, okay.

[56:53] Caseen Gaines: It's not Ruth. But Ruth does sing, I'm Just Simply Full of Jazz, right? That's her number.

[56:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She sings Full of Jazz. She sings Gypsy Blues. She kind of gets all of these songs that are, you know, kind of what you said, what black women were allowed to be on stage.

[57:08] Caseen Gaines: Yeah. And it's, it's funny, because jazz, the reason why I know Ruth actually isn't married to one of the two guys is because the, the book, the dialogue right before that song, such an interesting lead in, because she's talking to, I think, the character who is married to one of the grocers, whose name is escaping me right now. And that character says, like, when are you going to get married? And Ruth says, I'm never going to get married. You know, I'm just, I'm just too full of jazz, you know, and the whole song is essentially like, I can't be pinned down. I just like to go out and dance and shimmy and shake and, you know, I have no interest in being, you know, someone's wife. I'm just living the life. So that's why I knew that that particular song did not come from one of the spouses, for sure.

[57:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, that's so great. Other great songs, the title song Shuffle Along, of course, which is right at the top of Act Two, I believe. All of the pedestrians and like a traffic cop in this town, you know, just dancing. Once again, like, very seldom is the, are these songs coming out of like a true character motivated moment, but they're great nonetheless. I'm Just Wild About Harry, which we've discussed a lot about, but I love that the Harry that we've all been singing about is an actual character in Shuffle Along. Like, who knows that? So few people know that.

[58:33] Caseen Gaines: The Michigan J frog in the Looney Tunes would be shocked to learn.

[58:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Would be shocked to know! That stupid little frog.

[58:40] Caseen Gaines: Oh, that little frog. What a schemer, that frog.

[58:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He's a rascal. One of the other ones that I kind of want to talk about, and I hope it's not offensive, is if you haven't been vamped by a brown skin, you haven't been vamped at all.

[58:55] Caseen Gaines: Yeah.

[58:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which was their ode to like Florenzigfeld. This was like when all of the girls would come in, and it was a parade number, is how you would talk about it in the Follies. 100% objectifying Black women in the same way that all of these Follies numbers objectify women. But there's something kind of cool about it, and I don't, I can't put my finger on it. And I, once again, I hope that's not offensive.

[59:20] Caseen Gaines: No, no. I mean, I actually, I really love the number, and I think it's, to me, it's interesting that you just have a number that talks about just the skin tones of Black women, or Black people, like that Black people come in all different, you know, shades and colors. What's wild about that song, though, is the way it's placed in the show. It's the wildest placement. So like, so divorced, so divorced from the book. It's like, it's like a song that I really do enjoy, and not to say I don't like it in its place in the book, but it's just wild, the context. So there's a character who is the deacon of a church, and he is talking to someone, it might even be, I don't remember who it is, it might even be the traffic cop from the Shuffle Along number, but he's talking to someone about the legal trouble that he's found himself in, and he doesn't know what to do.

And the legal trouble that he found himself in is that his wife is divorcing him for adultery. And so the person he's talking to says, like, well, what's your defense? And he says, well, the defense was, it's not adultery, because if you saw that girl that I was with, like, no one, no one would have been able to resist her. No, like, that's not, that's not adultery. That doesn't count. And so the song is actually the deacon, yes, yep. So the song is the deacon of a church singing about how, if you've never been with a brown-skinned woman, you know, you've never been with any woman, you know, this is, you know, this is not my fault. So I'm obsessed with the 1921 version of, like, once you go black, you don't go back.

[1:01:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's basically it. And it's also a little bit of, like, the shaggy, it wasn't me, right? It's like a little bit of, like, you know, listen, I know, technically, it was adultery, but also technically, it wasn't. But you can't blame me, I promise. You can't blame me.

[1:01:16] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, but it's a, it is a great little number. And actually, one of the chapters in the book is titled, If You've Never Been Banned by a Brown-Skinned, because, because it's the number, it's the, it's the chapter where I talk about the chorus dancers, you know, and so it really is a number, or rather a chapter that focuses on the women of Shuffle Along and how they had competition and camaraderie and a whole lot going on. But yeah, so, so I lifted, I lifted that song title for the, for the, for the chapter title. I loved it so much.

[1:01:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so awesome. All right, the show ends with the two grocers winning the election, because this is a satire on politics. And so, of course, the corrupt people win the election. But in kind of like a surprise twist, Harry ends up ascending to, to the job, right?

[1:02:12] Caseen Gaines: Right, yep.

[1:02:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And how exactly does that happen?

[1:02:16] Caseen Gaines: So what ends up happening is, and I don't remember which one, whether it's Steve or Sam, but one of them ends up winning the election, quote-unquote winning, kind of stealing the election. And he appoints, and that's the Floyd Owen Miller character, and he appoints the Aubrey Lyles character to be chief of police in this town. And that was kind of the deal that they'd, that they'd worked out.

[1:02:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, one and two, one and two.

[1:02:39] Caseen Gaines: Which, which again, that's its own satire, like the mayor and the chief of police are going to be, you know, in some kind of go, right. But it's, it's discovered through this private detective that both of the Miller and Lyles characters had stolen from the cash register and had illegally funded their campaigns and essentially cheated to steal the election. And so they are, they are essentially disqualified, leaving only, you know, Harry Walton. Thank goodness there was a third candidate in the race, otherwise, you know, poor Jimtown would have had to run itself. But, but yeah, no, so, so that's how Harry ends up ascending to, to, to the mayoral office.

[1:03:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then of course gets to marry his love because of that, right?

[1:03:25] Caseen Gaines: Everything's tied together with a bow.

[1:03:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that's so sweet. Now, my understanding of the plot is more tied to the 1950 production because there's this recording of Eubie Blake and Noble Sissel doing like an audition, like a backers audition for a revival of Shuffle Along. And the whole idea that they brought to this revised version was that Harry Truman had just had his like, you know, legendary election for those who don't remember. Everyone assumed that he lost, like even the papers had headlines saying that he was defeated. And at the last minute, all of these votes were counted and it ended up being that he won. And they were like, oh, that's kind of like the, that's kind of like the plot of Shuffle Along. We should do it again. But now it's the satire of the, the Truman election.

[1:04:28] Caseen Gaines: That's right. That's right.

[1:04:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: They were brought on the bandwagon, and they wanted to be on the bandwagon, especially when he won. But the really weird, sad fact was they were invited to perform at the 48th inauguration. I guess it would have been technically the 49th inauguration. And when they got to DC, they were bumped for a white performer performing "I'm Just Wild About Harry."

[1:05:26] Caseen Gaines: No.

[1:05:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's tragic.

[1:05:31] Caseen Gaines: So it's kind of wild, no pun intended. But it's kind of crazy that when we look back and we say, well, how did we forget this thing that took place 100 years ago? Even 20 years later, 30 years later, you could see almost the writing on the wall for this show not being better remembered.

[1:05:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and this revised version didn't fly. It really didn't soar in any capacity.

[1:06:01] Caseen Gaines: No, it didn't soar like an anvil. It opened and they started trying to get funding for it in '49. And so that '50 recording that you heard was just a part of that effort. And they ultimately staged it in 1952. And it ran on Broadway at the Broadway Theatre. In fact, Broadway Theatre is still there. It ran for a whopping, do you know the answer to this? You know how many performances?

[1:06:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, I don't.

[1:06:30] Caseen Gaines: Give me a guess.

[1:06:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I want to say like 18. I don't know how many.

[1:06:36] Caseen Gaines: Fewer.

[1:06:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Shoot. Is it under 10?

[1:06:40] Caseen Gaines: It's under 10. It ran for four performances on Broadway. Four.

[1:06:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh.

[1:06:48] Caseen Gaines: And so it really was this just incredible flop. Pearl Bailey was actually set to star in that production, and she withdrew from it very publicly. And when she withdrew, she sort of said like, you know, this script has stereotypical humor in it. It has characters that speak in like Southern dialect. And, you know, I don't think that we need to, as a theatre community and as a Black community, I don't think that we need to revisit shows like Shuffle Along. I think Shuffle Along maybe had its time and place, but it's no longer that time and place. And she sort of explicitly, you know, led the charge in encouraging people to not.

[1:07:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, thank you, goodbye.

[1:07:40] Caseen Gaines: Right, right, right. Thank you, goodbye. And that was sort of an interesting thing that ultimately helped kill that show.

[1:07:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm going to play this little piece, because this recording that I'm talking about, it has Noble Cecil will tell the story, and then we'll sing like the songs. And it's quite a lengthy experience, because like he goes through every beat. But these are his closing remarks, and I just wanted to play that for everybody.

[1:08:04] Caseen Gaines: There you are, ladies and gentlemen. Thus endeth the audition of Shuffle Along of 1950. This is Noble Cecil speaking, at least what is left of him. Oh, boy. On behalf of Eubie Blake, my partner at the piano, and myself, we wish to thank you all for listening. We are sure with these comedy situations and musical numbers, with Eubie Blake in the pit directing the orchestra, you can depend on us giving a one-two punch to any old case of the blues that may be hanging around anyone's heartstrings. Shuffle Along is really ready to shuffle.

[1:08:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: When I heard that, I was filled with such sadness, and I'm not totally sure why. But I think it's because you can hear the hustle behind all of this. And when you reflect on what it took to make it what it was the first time around, and then relighting all of that to try it again, oh, I don't know. It affected me.

[1:09:09] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, I felt that way in writing the last couple chapters of the book, because the book kind of goes through that 1952 production, and then it jumps in time to the '70s and picks up when the men are essentially in their last couple years. And I feel the exact same way. There is Noble Cecil Jr., still very much so alive and spry and in my speed dial, is a wonderful person. I just spoke to him last week, and he said he was so thankful that When Broadway Was Black is out. And he said the number one thing that his dad would ask towards the end of his life was, I just wonder if anyone will remember us. I just wonder if anyone will remember what we did. And he said, even his son didn't really know.

By the 1970s, yeah, UB was out there. People kind of knew if you were maybe a theater aficionado or a jazz aficionado. But did the everyday person know about Shuffle Along and know about Noble Cecil and Floyd I. Miller and Aubrey Lyles? Look, even today, when I speak to people about the book or about Shuffle Along, I will always... Maybe you'd be surprised, maybe you wouldn't, but I get emails from people all the time saying, the basic premise of your book is flawed. In my mind, they all sound like this. The basic premise of your book is flawed because people do know about Shuffle Along. So to say people don't know about Shuffle Along, that's... Maybe you don't know about it. Maybe you didn't know about it. And the funny thing about it... I have so many things to say to these individuals.

[1:11:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh. Me too.

[1:11:18] Caseen Gaines: But what's funny about it is knowing about Shuffle Along comes with a certain level of privilege. And even these people that email me, and none of these emails are ever short, by the way. They're all very long emails with everyone telling me the things that they know about Shuffle Along.

[1:11:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, I can't stand it.

[1:11:39] Caseen Gaines: Imagine... In all seriousness, could you imagine writing someone who wrote a book and starting an email with, I haven't read your book yet, but... And then just using that opportunity to...

[1:11:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: To tell you what they know.

[1:11:53] Caseen Gaines: Yeah, it's quite a thing. But in all seriousness, what I think is interesting about it, it just sort of speaks to how much story there is to tell. Because almost none of these people know very much about Miller & Lyles. Often it's very little about Noble Sissel. They can tell you in broad strokes about Shuffle Along, and maybe they've listened to recordings, or maybe even performed certain songs, or things like that. And this isn't to take anything away from the 2016 George C. Wolfe production. But I think George C. Wolfe would tell you himself that there are creative liberties that he took with that production, because it's dramatized history. You know, it's not a documentary. It's a musical.

[1:12:44] Caseen Gaines: It's a historical fiction. It's not a documentary. And also, there are things that you can do differently in a 400-plus page book that you can't do in a three-hour musical. They're just different mediums, and vice versa. And so I really hope that through When Broadway Was Black, and all of the other things that I'm hoping will take place around Shuffle Along, that people will remember all of these artists. And I'm not just talking about, you know, Miller & Lyles and Sissel & Blake. I'm talking about, you know, the chorus people. You know, I'm talking about people like, you know, Freddie Washington and Lawrence Deas, the choreographer, and Elida Webb, who was one of the people in the chorus who ended up becoming a Black woman choreographer on Broadway as a result of being in the chorus of Shuffle Along and contributing to that choreography.

Josephine Baker. We didn't even talk about her. There's so much that we haven't talked about. Y'all need to buy this book. Josephine Baker, who, you know, gets her first, you know, professional credit in Shuffle Along. There's just so many amazing artists that intersected with this story, you know? And so if you feel like you know Shuffle Along, or any of these anecdotes, or people associated with it, it is definitely my promise that there will be more to kind of learn and know and appreciate through reading When Broadway Was Black. And that's not meant to be a commercial. It's meant to sort of say, in the same way that we relish the theater history of Oklahoma and Show Boat and West Side Story and Porgy & Bess and these other moments, Shuffle Along is definitely a show that is worthy of being elevated to that same plateau in our collective memory.

[1:14:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, I don't need to say anything else. Thank you. Thank you so much for being on this episode. I'm so happy with this episode. I'm so excited for everyone to hear it. Truly.

[1:15:03] Caseen Gaines: Oh my god, me too. Thank you. I really appreciate you having me on.

[1:15:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have any recommendations for shows you want us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast@gmail.com. Please follow us on social media. Share us with your friends. We're on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, at Amusical Podcast. We've also got Patreon! Where for only $1 a month, you can support the regular show and receive bonus episodes. Don't forget, also, I keep saying don't forget. Let's try something else. We also have our TeePublic store full of great designs that you can put on all manner of materials that benefits Broadway Cares, Equity Fights AIDS. I think that's all I have.

[1:15:45] Caseen Gaines: Hey, Kassim, how do we follow you? And how do we buy your book?

[1:15:49] Caseen Gaines: I am all over everywhere. Twitter, Facebook. Do people still Facebook? I do. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok. I'm at Kassim Gaines, C-A-S-S-E-E-N-G-A-I-N-E-S. I'm the only one, so find me. My book is at whenbroadwaywasblack.com. You can find links to purchase there. And if you are in the New York area, on May 22nd, I am producing 54 Sings Shuffle Along at 54 Below.

[1:16:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I just gay-gassed. That's amazing.

[1:16:27] Caseen Gaines: We have an amazing lineup. Some of the cast has already been announced. Some of the cast hasn't been announced. And we have a super, super special host for the evening. And I cannot say who it is yet, but if you follow me, you'll see the first announcement of who that person is, and you won't want to miss it.

[1:16:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, that's so cool.

[1:16:48] Caseen Gaines: So yeah, whenbroadwaywasblack.com for the book. And May 22nd, I will see you at 54 Below.

[1:16:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you so much, Kassim. This has been awesome.

[1:16:58] Caseen Gaines: Everybody, thank you so much for listening. And remember, I'm just wild about 63rd Street.