This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Here's the thing, Sam. It's the sheer audacity of this show. Just literally strapping two amazing women to each other. How you would ever consider creating a musical about conjoined twins, number one. Number two, have them both belting for Jesus. And then number three, have scenes that discuss the intimate matters of lovemaking. Like, the sheer audacity on all levels of this musical blows my mind. And at the same time, I know every lyric and it didn't leave my CD player for about two months when I first heard it. It is crazy because it answers the question that, like, what would every young gay want to hear? And it's like, oh, a woman belting. And then, like, a group of men sat around and they thought, what if that but two?

Times two! And here we are. In a way, we are kind of like two women belting here. Absolutely. Why not? I do hope that if we can answer anything during the course of this next hour or so, it will be to determine which of us is the Daisy and which of us is the Violet. So no guesses now, but just keep that on the back burner.

[1:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey, everybody. Welcome to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are talking Sideshow. And my guest is Mr. Sam Herbst. Hi.

[1:34] Sam Herbst: Hello. Thank you for that introduction.

[1:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Tell me about you, because I actually don't know you.

[1:44] Sam Herbst: Oh, yeah. It's so weird. We just ended up on this audio chat together, and then you said Sideshow. And I thought to myself, I have some thoughts. Yeah. Listen, my name is Sam Herbst. I'm an extremely online homosexual who is obsessed with musical theater, women belting, sometimes two women belting. Not sure if we'll get to that. But yeah, the stars aligned in this age of quarantine for us to talk together. And we stumbled upon this topic. And I couldn't be happier to be here. Now, do you mind me asking how old you are?

[2:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, I mind. But I will tell you that I'm 29.

[2:23] Sam Herbst: Okay. So that means when Sideshow came out, you were elementary school?

[2:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So I will say that my awareness of this show definitely comes into play. I think I did a lot of deep dive musical theater in the summer before I went to college, which feels very right for a young homosexual. I kind of missed the boat in high school. We didn't have a cool theater team. We were a Fame dance jump off the lunch tables high school.

[2:46] Sam Herbst: Oh, that's too bad.

[2:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So I mean, for a different podcast, I'd be ready to talk about that. But yeah, I think I did a lot of like, soul searching with theater right before college. So that's really where this hit me.

[3:04] Sam Herbst: Got it. My introduction because I'm significantly older than you.

[3:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We can still play sisters, though. And we will at the end of this podcast.

[3:11] Sam Herbst: Gosh, dang it. In theater, you can make magic with the audience being, you know, hundreds of feet away.

[3:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sure. Just a tube of grease paint, as they say. So my house in Willard, Utah, I feel was one of the first houses to have dial-up internet. But it was also the slowest thing on earth. So I would maybe once a day go into our computer room. And then I could pick one thing from Playbill online to click. And then I would go make a sandwich and come back and the page would have loaded. And then I would read my story for the day. And the one that I clicked on was something about the best cast albums of this holiday season, which would have been 1997. And at the top of the list was this show called Sideshow, which I had never heard of, but the cast album had come out. And there was all of this hoopla because the message boards, message boards were a new thing.

Message boards were aflame with the back and forth of whether it was a good show, whether this was a masterpiece and whether or not it should close, because at this point, it wasn't looking great. Long story short, too late. I remember Sideshow being the first kind of message boards thing where people had opinions and were trying to keep the show open. And that just meant that I had to go and find the cast album immediately. So I strategically suggested that my family go drop me off at Blockbuster Music 45 minutes away. I went and found it, bought it, and then it never left my CD player for a couple months. I mean, first things first, Blockbuster Music, just a moment of silence.

[5:01] Sam Herbst: There are so many words that I just said that many people might not even realize are words.

[5:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I think if you've never been on like a Playbill or a Broadway World message board, hell hath no fury. There are like blind items galore. There is the hottest tea being spilled. There are flame wars about things that you never thought you could see. I do also want to say that when you were talking about loading that and like getting up and making a sandwich, in my mind was like that you would load a page and it would load from left to right. So you'd only see half of the Sideshow albums. You would just see like Emily or Alice and like you would just spend the rest of your days thinking that it was just a show about one of them because it just never loaded.

[5:42] Sam Herbst: Because it never got there. You're like, wow, this beautiful blonde woman, she's the star of the show. Wait, what?

[5:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I love the album side.

[5:51] Sam Herbst: Okay, but going back to message boards, what is your opinion on message boards? Good thing? Bad thing?

[5:57] Sam Herbst: At this point in my life, I have like a degree of distance away from them. I usually only see what makes it from the message boards to like Twitter screenshots. So I'm back to finding them amusing and fun. I think before that I think when you're in them, it really feels like it's your whole life. And you're like there to prove a point to people that are probably just like, moms in Madison, Wisconsin, who just like really love Hamilton. And that's not a way to spend your days. So I think now I have a safe distance. And I can say like, I nod in their direction.

[6:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Fair enough. I have never actually written a message on a message board. I'm also terrified to be famous enough that I would be mentioned on a message board because like you said, hell hath no fury.

[6:45] Sam Herbst: That would be mortifying to just like, decide that today was going to be your day to sign up. And like, one of the first things you see is people discussing you. I was gonna ask, what would your message board username be? Would it be like NifidaBoy84 or something like that?

[7:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, what would it have been? At that point, it would have been like, Ripley2020. You know, I was full Alice. Let me think. I think if I had to do it in high school, it would be like, embarrassingly something like rent oriented. It would be like, no day but today and like two would be a number. But then obviously that'd be taken to be like, no day but today, 66.

[7:22] Sam Herbst: I think I would probably go even deeper and do Steelpeer.

[7:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh shit.

[7:28] Sam Herbst: I know.

[7:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is this the first Steelpeer reference on the podcast? It can't be.

[7:31] Sam Herbst: Probably. But do you know what it's not? It's not the first Steelpeer reference on my keychain.

[7:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay.

[7:38] Sam Herbst: Because I still have my Steelpeer keychain. From when I saw that on one of the few performances, it lasted on Broadway. And I am incredibly proud of that.

[7:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that's a good relic.

[7:52] Sam Herbst: Anyway, no, so it probably would have been like reader scene 01 slash Karen Ziemba was robbed, you know, like something like that.

[7:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Well, you could have like, I feel like you always get like, people have like tags at the bottom or like a signature. And it's always like, you know, they format it in HTML. So it's like in red, you could put the Karen Ziemba thing down there.

[8:11] Sam Herbst: See, I needed you by my side.

[8:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I will never leave you.

[8:17] Sam Herbst: Okay, so Sideshow, let's talk a little bit about the origins. The music was written by Henry Krieger, who of course is most famous for his musical Dreamgirls, which came out in what, like 81? 1981. Then a few years later after that, he does the Tap Dance Kid, which isn't as big a hit, but still is, you know, relatively successful. Then he goes MIA for like 15 years. And the Broadway community doesn't really hear anything from him until in the late 90s. He writes the music for Sideshow. His writing partner for this particular piece was Bill Russell. He ended up writing both the book and the lyrics. And Bill Russell is probably most famous for Pageant. Have you ever seen Pageant?

[9:02] Sam Herbst: I have. So our mutual connection, Tom Zohar and I, one of the many, hi Tom, one of the many things he took me to when we both lived in San Diego was to see Pageant. And he took my then boyfriend at the time with us too, who is like not a theater person. So Tom always had to make a decision about like, is this accessible enough that he would like it? And I do remember that leaving Pageant, like for weeks after he was talking about how much he loved Pageant. We took him to see so many good things. Not that Pageant isn't great, but like that was the thing that cracked it open for him.

[9:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know exactly what you're talking about. It was Pageant at the Signet Theater in San Diego. And it was terrific. But it's a show making fun of the Pageant world by having all of the contestants of this beauty pageant being played by men. And it's hilarious. But lyrics and book were written by Bill Russell. Originally, it was produced off Broadway and staged by Robert Longbottom. So this dude was the first person to think of the Hilton sisters as being a pretty decent topic to create a musical.

[10:12] Sam Herbst: Yeah, I mean, Paris and Nikki, there's so much material there.

[10:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's actually a very fair point. And by Hilton sisters, I mean Daisy and Violet, who were very famous conjoined twin performers during the vaudeville era. And they went on to make a couple of films. These films came across old Bobby Longbottom's desk. And he thought, oh, this is actually a pretty great subject for a musical. Calls his friend Bill from Pageant. Bill gets Henry involved. And boom, they start creating the show and creating it through workshops. Now, let's actually talk a little bit about Daisy and Violet. They were born in 1908 in England. And they were born to an unwed grocery clerk who essentially sold them to the midwife who helped deliver them. Then the midwife puts them into, quote unquote, freak shows.

Freak shows were. Well, look, it's called Sideshow because these, quote unquote, freaks were never part of the big show. They were never in the big tent. They were always in the smaller tents, the sideshow, where you could go and just kind of see these strange parts of humanity, I guess. And in the case of Daisy and Violet, conjoined twins, they were born with their pelvic bone fused. They each had a full set of vital organs, but they were fused at the pelvic bone. And this is something that would definitely be solved by a very simple surgery in 2020.

[11:47] Sam Herbst: Yeah, and I think even in their own time, you know, more than 100 years ago, they obviously saw multiple doctors over the course of their lives and had various attempts at either starting the surgery or attempting the surgery. And I think probably close to the end of their life, realistically could have done that successfully. And I think, you know, and something the musical tackles is the big question of what will they lose and what will they gain from doing that? But I think you're absolutely right. If you look at photos of them now, it seems like something that could easily be done.

[12:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The difference, I think, that they had as opposed to some of the other attractions, which just seems so dehumanizing to say, in the sideshows was that they actually had really sweet singing voices. So they quickly get booked on the vaudeville circuit, performing and actually getting a pretty decent amount of acclaim and fame. And that kind of leads them into a few films, the first of which is called Freaks and it's by Todd Browning. Freaks is actually a really cool horror film from the 30s and manages to be a really sympathetic film, but at the time was considered very grotesque because it was showing characters on screen who at that time probably would be found in the freak shows. You have people missing limbs and then they wreak terror on this woman.

But the difference is, it's not because they're evil or because freaks are evil, it's because she deserves it. She's a horrible person. So it really kind of walks this strange line of giving them some representation in a time when representation didn't exist and also creating a horror film because it was shocking to the audience at the time to see it.

[13:39] Sam Herbst: Yeah, it is very much one of those things where you see this in early queer films and early trans films and any other sort of marginalized group where you see a group getting representation, but it is sort of at their expense. And they walk this line between kind of opening the door for maybe more respectful, more summative works.

[14:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's an interesting piece for sure.

[14:05] Sam Herbst: Amazing how little I was offended by it in my modern sensibilities. Sure. I thought it was going to be unwatchable. And it was actually pretty great older film. Yeah, definitely of the two films. That is the superior product in almost every way. Yeah, the second one is called Chain for Life. Yeah. And it's pretty terrible. Because even though they had beautiful singing voices, the girls could not act. Yeah. And it is first and foremost, an exploitation film, I think, in ways that are more transparent. I mean, even in the ways that it borrows from their own life. I think they definitely drew on some of the salacious tabloid headlines and kind of, you know, really exploited them in a way that's not great.

And at that point, they're also in their what, 40s? Yeah, they look like they've lived a life or two. Yeah. And at that point, too, I know, you know, through the end of their life, they were both working as grocery clerks, which is kind of ironic, given that their birth mother had the same job, and it kind of comes full circle. And so I mean, they were largely out of the spotlight, and they kind of get sucked back in for something that is probably just a cash grab in their eyes and kind of at the expense of their dignity, which is unfortunate. And I do think that if anything else, the musical really preserves their dignity. I don't think there is there's any moment that exploits them in the way that some of these other products do.

[15:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. I think what the musical does well, first and foremost, is creating an empathic experience for us to experience these two women's lives, regardless of whether or not it's a step by step biography of their lives. It's an emotional experience that we go through as an audience.

[15:48] Sam Herbst: Yeah, I think when you look at the different iterations of the show, I think the revival really tries to add more of that biographical color. And I think it actually works to the detriment, because I think you're right, what the spirit of the show is, is really this emotional journey and hitting the emotional beats. And I think you lose a lot of that in the recent productions. All you're receiving is emotion, which is I think maybe what makes it so divisive. Talk about those message boards. Message boards, right? Absolutely.

[16:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And also, I think it's probably one of the reasons why they opted to not do an out of town tryout, because like, why? You're probably just going to have divisive audiences no matter what you change. So they're like, well, let's just go for it. Let's open on Broadway.

[16:36] Sam Herbst: During the workshops, they find their leads. First up is Miss Emily Skinner, who at this point was a cover for Jekyll and Hyde. She covered both the two leading ladies. To go with Emily, they end up finding Alice Ripley, who at this point had been in the mega ensemble of the Who's Tommy, and funny enough, had a song with Norm Lewis, who also ends up being in Sideshow. Crazy.

[17:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, she kind of, she comes through Tommy through like the La Jolla Playhouse, again, bringing it back to San Diego, and like, everyone was in that production of Tommy. Like, if you look at it, like Sherry Renee Scott is in there. It's a murderer's role in the cast.

[17:21] ⚠ About 3 minutes of audio could not be automatically transcribed.

[20:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I might be jumping around. You're fine. So I own like a very grainy bootleg of this show.

[20:43] Sam Herbst: Oh my gosh. Yes, on DVD somewhere in my home. It's been a while since I watched it.

[20:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But from that point, aside from maybe the scene in which Terry is dreaming about one of them, they don't split apart in the other part, right?

[20:59] Sam Herbst: Correct. One of the things that I think is most insane about the revival is that they do have a moment where they split, which I think shatters that thing that you just talked about. That thing that is so lovely and keeps the audience kind of at the same page with the creators. But I do think there is something, like you said, so lovely about just letting the audience in on that secret and just getting it out of the way, because it should be truly the least important part of the show.

[21:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. I think that it's a way to get people into the theater.

[21:33] Sam Herbst: Yeah. But then once they're in there, let's actually focus on the real thing, you know? Which is women sing aloud. Sing aloud, sing in high, sing in raw.

[21:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Kathy Hyatt belting as high as they can. Even though it runs for only 91 performances, it gains this huge cult following, especially because of the cast album. Obviously, it reached my little farm town, and I became obsessed with it. It also gets nominated for several Tony Awards the following year in '98.

[22:07] Sam Herbst: But man, can we talk about this Tony season real quick? Because it is jam-packed.

[22:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's stacked. So the best musical nominees for the year that Sideshow was eligible are Lion King, Ragtime, Sideshow, and Scarlet Pimpernel. That is a crazy, crazy best musical lineup.

[22:30] Sam Herbst: I am not, this might be controversial, but I'm not a huge Lion King fan, just in terms of the property as a whole. I get it.

[22:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But I am, and I think Sideshow was number one on the list I sent to you, but I believe Ragtime was the number two. If not, it might have been Parade, because I just love an American historical musical apparently. But yeah, talk about my heart being torn between two shows in a year.

[22:57] Sam Herbst: Yeah. Okay, so I think Ragtime's a masterpiece. And I'm still a little upset the Lion King won. However, Lion King changed theater forever. So fine. Take the award. Now, kind of the big thing though, that came out of this Tony Awards season was in the Best Actress category, because the Tony Awards committee allowed Emily Skinner and Alice Ripley to be one performance, which I believe is the only time that they've ever allowed that. And the revival, they didn't allow that. So the nominees for Best Actress were Alice Ripley and Emily Skinner for Sideshow, Natasha Richardson for Cabaret, she played Sally Bowles, rest in peace. Maren Mazie for Ragtime, also rest in peace. My gosh. And then, and who, do you have it up? It's Betty Buckley.

[23:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, and Betty Buckley for Triumph of Love. Yeah, which again, that's what a lineup. Stacked.

[24:02] Sam Herbst: Yeah, totally stacked. Because I love Triumph of Love. And it didn't even get, you know, it wasn't even considered for any of the big awards. The award goes to Natasha Richardson, who I know was brilliant. And I would love to say that I would have wanted Alice and Emily to win. But the truth is, I actually would have wanted Maren to win. I mean, that is one of the great performances of the 20th century. It would have been really nice to have Maren have it, especially now in 2020, where we're sitting. Although I guess Natasha Richardson too. It's so tough.

[24:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It is a crazy lineup. For Best Score that year. It was Ragtime, Sideshow, The Cape Man by Paul Simon, which has an amazing score. And I really do. I dig that show too. I would love for a revival of that thing to try and maybe get it right.

[24:52] Sam Herbst: Yeah, who's gonna come on and do the Cape Man episode? Natasha Diaz. Paul Simon. It's quarantine. So like, what are these people doing? They're doing your podcast. Come on. That's what I'm screaming. And yet, and yet here we are. Both Tony Award winners.

[25:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Anyway, so Lion King wins Best Musical. Ragtime wins all of the writing stuff. And Natasha Richardson wins for Best Actress. That means Sideshow walks away empty-handed. But it does win the hearts of theater geeks everywhere.

[25:27] Sam Herbst: Yeah. I mean, I think we all can recognize, like you said, Lion King changed the face of the earth. But who out there is like, you know, dying the little Lion King fandom in the way that some of us are for Sideshow? Okay, let's go through the show, shall we?

[25:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Let's do it. Sideshow opens with a great opening number that is both spooky and gorgeous called Come Look at the Freaks. Now I'm just going to get this out of the way right now. The lyrics in this show sometimes make me feel embarrassed inside. So I'm going to make me feel embarrassed inside. And I'm not necessarily saying that's a bad thing.

[26:13] Sam Herbst: No, I do think you have to buy into some of the schmaltz that you're being thrown. And I know I said I would stop talking about the revival. But the very last thing I will say is that they added a song that I think is called Sideshow that didn't even make the official revivalist but is on the revival recording. And they rhyme Sideshow with Brideshow. And that is an actual insult to God.

[26:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is it a wedding? Is it? I don't know. Sideshow and Brideshow is, I mean, it's hilarious. But you're right. There are some, yeah, there's just a simplicity to the way that these characters talk, which is okay. Not everybody is as analytical and self-aware as a Stephen Sondheim musical.

[27:03] Sam Herbst: Sure. And why should these characters be?

[27:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. So I'm totally fine with it. That being said, it's incredibly vulnerable to hear people belting some of these words just with all of their soul. And that's for me to deal with, not for them.

[27:23] Sam Herbst: Yeah, we take that on as audience members. I'm like, what is this saying about me? What can I learn from this?

[27:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Listen, theater is holding up the mirror to you. And that's what you're getting back.

[27:31] Sam Herbst: It is my mirror. And it's like, Jeff, why isn't your vocabulary better?

[27:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So the show opens with Come Look at the Freaks, which is being sung by this whole cast of characters who are in the Freak Show. Now, did you mention that you wanted to talk about the set design?

[27:50] Sam Herbst: Yeah, I mean, I mentioned it's kind of sparseness because it leeches.

[27:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's big bleachers, bleachers. And again, at one point, you know, there are moments where they turn towards the audience. So we're kind of looking up upstage at them. And it really, it's a literal

[28:10] Sam Herbst: You know, like, who is the real freak here? Who is the spectator? Who is being consumed here? And, you know, I think in maybe a less deft production that comes off a little ham-handed, it really is the kind of, like, theatre is to tell you about you, and you're the freaks. And I don't think the show does that or doesn't strive to do that. But yeah, you have in real time, these kind of roustabouts, these members of the ensemble or various members of the freak show, at times rearranging these bleachers, and it is incredibly effective for what it is. And I think, like, you know, you mentioned, like, putting it straight to Broadway, and it's like, our set is bleachers. And like, what a, what a ballsy move for a Broadway ticket paying audience to just get that.

But it works. Sets by, I believe, Robin Wagner, who is known for doing huge spectacle sets for, like, the producers and for Jerome Robbins Broadway. Like, he breaks, he breaks the budget. So to have him do something this interesting, I think, is really cool. The guy who's in charge of the sideshow or the freak show is known as Sir, played originally by Ken Jennings, who was the original Toby in Sweeney Todd. And I am kind of obsessed with the idea that Toby grew up to become the leader of this sideshow. But he's this evil guy, imprisoning these people and trying to make money off of them. The Hilton sisters are known as the Songbirds. Then they've also got the Cannibal King, who is a large black man, who they are telling the audiences is a cannibal.

But he is actually a very sweet, loyal friend of the sisters known as Jake. We love Jake. We love Jake. After the opening number, we meet these two fellas, one who's a songwriter, one who's kind of a vaudeville agent. And they've come to basically see if they can sign the sisters, because they might be a really great get for vaudeville. The agent is named Terry. The songwriter's named Buddy. Yeah, I love Buddy because I love a coded gay character. Boy, is he barely coded? Yeah. Yeah, it's it's written pretty thin. But I mean, I'm Team Buddy all the way. I think we're meant to see Terry almost from the jump is like pretty opportunistic. But also they're men. And I'm not here to talk about men in this show.

So fair enough to say that. Yeah, they are male props for us to have more scenes with the women. They immediately find these women very special by asking them, what do you really want? And they proceed to sing a beautiful song about what they want. Daisy, who is the sister who has more energy and more ambition, she's interested in being a star. And to her side is Violet, who much like her name is more demure, and is really interested in finding love and settling down. Nobody knows if this is actually a true representation of the personalities of these women. But it was certainly part of the way that they were packaged in their heyday. So they kind of ran with it. You have these two sisters who are conjoined, but they have very different outlooks and very different desires in life.

Yeah, what a fair song for them to sing. I think you get so much character detail from them. You know, not just what they sing about themselves, but what they sing about each other. You know, most of the lyrics in the song are, you know, I want this, she wants this, you know, I want Serenity, she wants Frenzy to claim. God, it tells you everything you need to know about these people. And the whole concept of being like everyone else, you know, they have such different views of what everyone is, and they don't realize, you know, perhaps how special they are. And what a message. And isn't that something we all run into? My gosh, the paradox of wanting to feel special, but wanting to disappear and blend in at the same time.

Yeah. So they sign them and say, hey, we'd love to get your career going. The boss or sir, is like, absolutely not. So Terry decides that Buddy can work with them secretly to maybe just teach them one number. At which point, Jake, who we love, steps forward and sings a song about warning them of the devil they know versus the devil they don't. This is Jake is the exception to talking about men on this episode, because absolutely, because he's also ostracized. I'm not interested in talking about guys who have every opportunity. I'm interested in Jake. Yeah. And the devil, you know, is a number. Right. Just saying, like, this group is your family. You know, there may be bad sides to it, but at least you know what they are.

And going out there with these two strange men, you just don't know what you're getting yourself into. This was the first time I had heard Norm Lewis. I think that would have to be the same for me as well. Yes. And that is an extraordinary throat. Yeah. I mean, some of the notes in this song, I forget what he sings at the very end, but there is like he sustains and you're just like, oh, OK, men should be allowed to sing because he's got this like a super rich baritone. But then he's kind of just living his life as well. Up top. Norm Lewis is our leading man, period. He's our phantom. He's my phantom. After the devil, you know, which there are some questionable lyrics in that song. My favorite is the fortune teller.

Yeah. I'm a fortune teller. I can see your future. Right. Did you need to explain that? I mean, we get it that you're a fortune teller. So Buddy is now working secretly with the girls to teach them this number. Terry comes back and says, hey, how are things going? And Buddy is like, look, boss, I think we've got more than we bargained for with these two. Not only are they talented and great, but I think Violet likes me and I think Daisy likes you. And is this OK? Because we're obviously never going to be with them. It's impossible. We would never do that, right? Yeah. I mean, how could we? They're stuck together. After that, we hear things from Daisy and Violet's side, which is basically confirming everything that Buddy just said.

Violet's in love with Buddy. Daisy's in love with Terry. And they have this really lovely scene song about how those are feelings that they can't have, that they can't entertain because there's no future to them. I think what's really interesting about this song, and we sort of start to ramp up to it here, is this is a musical where you have these like diegetic songs where, you know, it is them actually singing on a stage and performing. And then you have these kind of scene songs where they are, you know, just singing their emotions and kind of true musical theater status. And I think, again, you've got them singing to each other about, you know, they start to talk about being able to feel what each other are feeling.

I think we hear that for the first time here. You know, Daisy will say about Violet, you know, I can feel these feelings of love that you're brewing and, you know, you would be best to keep them down. And I think just they talk about emotions so frankly between the two of each other because there is this like symbiosis happening in a way that like even in a musical theater world when people are shouting their emotions, it just feels so vulnerable. And then like they get literally kicked out onto a stage for the next song to sing this song about how happy they are to be side by side when they like clearly have these deep, deep rivers of emotion. It's just, ah, someone should do a podcast about this stuff.

I also think that the approach, the vocal approach, and I don't know if this was thanks to a musical director or just the performers, maybe Henry Krieger had something to say about it because obviously Dreamgirls follows that a little bit too. The raw vocal approach to singing this stuff is so vulnerable as well. Yeah, I mean, and we'll get to it, but like they are just looking at the audience and screaming their feelings in a way that is like pretty unsophisticated and pretty literal, but like none of that matters in the moment. No, and so therefore do we have Sideshow to blame for white girl skrelting? We certainly have it to blame for me doing it. So after this, like you said, they go on stage and they sing the song that they've been practicing with Buddy and it's sweet and cute, but not at all powerful.

Still, it's a hit because in addition to them having a high degree of talent, they also have this novelty of being conjoined twins, which I guess I should also say Siamese twins at this point is an outdated term because they're not Siamese. Yeah, and I think that comes from probably Chang and Ang who are referenced very briefly, probably if not the most infamous or famous pair of conjoined twins, then certainly second. So because they are a hit, it's time to leave the freak show. Yeah, it's time to leave this group. And the boss is really upset about it, so he kind of devises this deal, right, where he gets a percentage of what they, like a commission on whatever success they have. Then they say goodbye.

Also, when they sing, no, not goodbye to Jake. It's so sweet, right? They've never loved a man as much as they have loved Jake. That's the love story. It is. And it's right up there with Miss Saigon for me, where it's like, it doesn't matter what they would be saying. You give me that, like, Lea Salonga tone and I'm just like, tears will fill my eyes. My nose will start running. It just happens. They may as well be saying, take care of Tam. Exactly. This is what I mean. So now Jake decides that he's going to go with them, right, and kind of be like a protector. Yeah, I think Terry kind of sees the writing on the wall and realizes they might not leave. And I forgot what he says lyrically, but basically he's saying, why don't you come along and be kind of the muscle for us, you know, for this big, big time act.

So now they're on the vaudeville circuit. Everything's going great. But as is the case with anybody that you spend a lot of time with, we start seeing the sisters argue and bicker about the way that they're handling the fame. Daisy is becoming more flirtatious and wanting Terry. Violet thinks that that is sad and inappropriate. So they fight each other in song. Yeah, the one-two punch of what this song does and what it immediately pivots into is one of the most impressive things about this musical is there's this song explicitly titled Leave Me Alone, which is basically an argument right into a song called We Share Everything, where again, it's how lucky and happy are we to not have a single unique thought between us and to have to share every waking moment?

This is like, true Henry Krieger in my mind, because this is almost like the It's All Over segment. Exactly. And then it goes right into a press conference right afterwards. It's all on Dreamgirls. Yeah, it's the Dreamgirls segment of the show, the press conference slash what they refer to as the interview here. The patter there is, oh, it is so good. And that's probably my favorite part of Dreamgirls is that because just the joy from Dina that she gets in that. Yeah, just so much information gets revealed there. But yeah, take us take us through it because this is, oh, this is a sweet spot. No, it's so true. So they go from the argument to then being on stage and performing We Share Everything, which is in the original production, they're like Egyptian queens, right?

And it's a whole Nile type. The only way that I've seen this choreography is they performed it on the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. Oh, God bless them. Yeah. In the in the grainy bootleg it is. I don't know if they have the pyramid hats or some of the ensemble have them, but there are pyramid hats and it's wonderful. So after this number, they're in a press room and the reporters are like, tell us, Miss Jones, how does it feel? And the reporters get very inappropriate in asking about their personal lives and especially about their love lives. Yeah. What about those? Oh, those is so good. And the guys say, no, there's nothing going on in between us, which is a total lie because there obviously is chemistry and sparks happening.

And that makes Daisy very upset. But to kind of be the contrast against that, Buddy kisses Violet for the first time after this press conference. And so Daisy's like, didn't you hear what they said there? They're not interested in us. And Violet's like, yeah, but words can lie. Kisses don't. He kissed me and now I see nothing but possibilities. And so now we have this really great moment of them both thinking the same question from their sides of this life, right? Which is, will I ever find love? Who will love me as I am? Which is the.

[42:15] Sam Herbst: I'm telling you, I'm not going to moment of the show. It really is just 100% Henry Krieger and I have no problem with it because it works and I love it. It's great, yeah. It does have a little bit, and you talked about the lyrics, you really listen to what they're singing about their metaphors, like a clown whose tears cause laughter and you're like, oh, okay. But then Emily Skinner just opens up her soul and hits those consonants and so you just accept it. And I have no other way of saying that you just accept it because they perform it with, and this is on a recording, that's the way that I've seen it, they perform it with such commitment that I don't question it. But even on their, they did that Feinstein's album a couple of years ago, and obviously they've had albums together since, and every time, I mean, they just gas pedal all the way down.

Just like from the jump. It is a banana song to have to sing. If there's anybody who hasn't heard them sing it, don't listen to anybody else sing it. Just go to them. These two women, the way that their voices work together, is just absolute theater magic. And after experiencing this album, I immediately became obsessed with them. I bought all of their duets albums. They did one that was just called Duets, and then they had another one called Unsuspecting Hearts, where they did the song from Carrie. Like, my jam. Yeah, they have a great, I know him so well. I forget which album it is that like, some of the songs are not duets, they just kind of decide that they want to sing songs. Emily Skinner just absolutely murders the Miller son.

[44:04] Jeff Parsons: Yes. Also, can we talk about She's Gone, since it is a sideshow song?

[44:08] Sam Herbst: Yes, absolutely. She's Gone is a cut song from this show that absolutely rules. And I mean, I guess maybe it throws the show off balance. And I mean, I've heard them both sing it on various things, and She's Gone rules. We love a trunk song. That's act one, people. Can you imagine? You just go home after that. Go home. It's like when a middle school does Into the Woods and just does the first act. Just go home. You've seen it. And yet, we're gonna come back because some of the guiltiest pleasures of all musical theater history are located.

[44:46] Jeff Parsons: Like 1 plus 1 equals 3? Is that what you're getting at?

[44:49] Sam Herbst: 1 plus 1 equals 3 is an audition song of mine.

[44:54] Jeff Parsons: Is it?

[44:55] Sam Herbst: The thing is, is that I'm always auditioning for like, old timey song and dance men, and 1 plus 1 equals 3 is perfect. And then you can just option up at the end. And it's great. I will say, for the record, this is an audition. You're doing great so far. I have no notes.

[45:09] Sam Herbst: Oh, thank you. But I am ready to hear that towards the end. Whenever you're ready.

[45:13] Jeff Parsons: Like so many actors, I'm using act one to warm up.

[45:17] Sam Herbst: Okay, so act two starts. And we are back to, at least in the original version, we're back to vaudeville with this like, strange songbirds on display number. So, you know, they're a success in vaudeville. Then we go to New Year's Day, not from Rent. It's the sideshow version. They already have an agent, so no one can say, I think we need an agent. They already have one. It's all about like, hey, there's nothing but blue skies ahead. It's going to be a great year. Which then bleeds into Terry, our man friend, Terry, kind of going into the soliloquy, Billy Bigelow style, talking about what it would be like to have Daisy all to himself. Because at this point, Buddy's in love with Violet, Daisy's in love with Terry, there's no denying it.

And yet, Terry doesn't get any one on one time with Daisy. This is that moment in the show when all of a sudden he experiences her without her sister. And it's interesting and moody and kind of sexy. Like there are so many almost musical climaxes in this score. And there's one in here, I think. Yeah, I think, you know, I think Daisy is upstage in like a spotlight, kind of wearing just like a white gown. It's very spectral. And yeah, it's the lyrics are sexy, the staging is sexy. From there, we're back into vaudeville, one plus one equals three. It seems that maybe the writers were trying to figure out how to balance some of this uncomfortable content and the very vulnerable stuff with the sheen and the traditional presentation of vaudeville entertainment.

And we're constantly flipping back and forth. And I'm not really I had don't think I ever really noticed it until I talk about it where it's like, here's one song about my deepest, darkest feelings. And now here's a song where we do a vaudeville act. And then then we're back to our deepest, darkest feelings. I mean, it's just it's literally back and forth, back and forth.

[47:22] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, one plus one equals three coming off of that song, which is basically the thesis is like, I want to doink you alone. Like, let's get a fun vaudeville number where someone is actually in bed with us. Also, maybe it's a gay one. So like, is this even zanier?

[47:37] Sam Herbst: I think there's like, I think there's actually a joke.

[47:44] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, yeah.

[47:45] Sam Herbst: I think in the revival, they kind of spell out the fact that she might be a beard for him.

[47:52] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, yes, yes.

[47:54] Sam Herbst: Okay, yeah, I'm looking at the revival notes. And they do have another man listed in that song. And they're doing the hairspray vertical bed thing to make it look like they're sleeping. And at one point, I think they're bopping up and down very farcically. And it's Buddy and another man, which isn't it crazy that two men will be in a bed together?

[48:12] Jeff Parsons: Disgusting.

[48:14] Sam Herbst: Yeah, oh, sorry. When I said crazy, I meant repulsive.

[48:16] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, thank you.

[48:19] Sam Herbst: Out of this, Violet and Buddy, they are kind of in love. And obviously, they're playing this up on stage. But Buddy's kind of gay. And so he's not really able to commit to Violet. That's the subtext I'm getting. I think he recognizes it as an arrangement that will be perhaps mutually beneficial. Maybe it will throw some of the smoke off of him and people's suspicions. And I think Violet gets something out of it. But what it is for our friend Jake is not enough.

[48:51] Jeff Parsons: No, Jake sees right through that shit. Jake's gaydar is on point.

[48:55] Sam Herbst: And so Jake steps up and says, you know what you deserve? You deserve to be loved in the way that I love you. And my goodness, if Norm Lewis sang this song to any person here listening, you would... He would get to saying, you should. And then I would just stop and say yes. Whatever you're about to say, yes.

[49:14] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[49:15] Sam Herbst: It's an incredible song to have at this point in the second act of a musical. Because so often, second acts are just filled with reprises of songs that we've heard in the first act. Here's a kick butt song for a baritone in act two. And once again, that raw vocal approach that Norm Lewis brings to it is moving and emotional, and there's no escaping it.

[49:42] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[49:43] Sam Herbst: And even the stuff that Violet gets to sing back, you know, the Jake, you know, we love each other, brother and sister, mother and child. That is so vulnerable, too, because she is expressing a level of love there. She just can't reconcile. And how could you, you know, from spending your adolescence with this man? I also don't know if you pick up on this, but I think that one of the most profound moments of the song is that Jake is fully ready to commit himself to Violet in her condition as a conjoined twin. And yet, because he is a Black man, she is not able to commit to him.

[50:23] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, I think there is definitely some text in there that references that. And it is this interesting concept of these two different forms of othering and the kind of hierarchy that exists there where they are white at the end of the day, and they may be in any other situation part of this quote unquote freak show. But there is a, unfortunately, a hierarchy that exists that she is, at least that she's perceiving. But yeah, the way that this show kind of just touches at that, because I mean, ultimately, this is a show about these two women. But the way it touches on homosexuality and the way that it touches on race relations and those types of things, I think is really impressive.

[51:07] Sam Herbst: Agreed. I mean, all she says is, I couldn't bear what they would say if I loved you that way. Which, what a delivery. Dang.

[51:16] Jeff Parsons: That Alice Ripley.

[51:19] Sam Herbst: Yeah, she's going places. I hope she is still good at work. I really hope she finds that one role, you know, where she can just truly let loose. I was talking about someone that was at a Pulitzer Prize winning musical. Spoiler alert, Alice Ripley did Next to Normal, in case you don't know.

[51:38] Jeff Parsons: OK, so out of You Should Be Loved, they're at this fair performing at this big festival. And Terry kind of sees all of the drama that's gone down with Jake and Violet. Daisy's upset. He's still feeling like he wants some alone time with her. So he gets the idea that they can all go on the tunnel of love. And because it's in the dark and it's a fun little ride, it'll be like these couples will have some alone time. So they...

[52:07] Sam Herbst: We should say that they're not just performing. Their wedding is actually the grand finale of this kind of centennial carnival that they're there. So this tunnel of love is in a lot of ways set up as a tribute to them, which is like even more heartbreaking.

[52:21] Jeff Parsons: Oh, wow. That's fascinating.

[52:23] Sam Herbst: And we're talking about Violet and Buddy.

[52:26] Jeff Parsons: Yes, thank you. The ones who were celebrated in 1 plus 1 equals 3.

[52:30] Sam Herbst: Oh, that's cool. I don't think I ever realized that. So the culmination of this whole fair and festival is their wedding.

[52:37] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[52:38] Sam Herbst: So they're kind of the main attraction there, which is interesting. You know, the first time they get the headline, it's really at their expense. It's this incredibly personal moment. So they go into the tunnel of love. And as a teenager listening to this song, I think I went, is what I think happening actually happening? And yeah.

[53:00] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[53:02] Sam Herbst: Yeah. So Terry decides to use the opportunity to start making out with Daisy. And it gets heavier and heavier and hotter and hotter. And meanwhile, on the other side, Buddy isn't stepping up to the plate at all, which leaves Violet on the other end of this passionate lovemaking. Realizing there's this line that she says, why do Daisy's shivers run up my spine?

[53:28] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. And she thinks later, why am I left feeling cold?

[53:31] Sam Herbst: And so it's just they are so intrinsically connected. Meanwhile, they're delivering all of this straight to the audience with nothing but a flashlight, which is, again, it's remarkable.

[53:43] Jeff Parsons: Oh, fascinating.

[53:44] Sam Herbst: So when it was staged, they just each had a flashlight that they would turn on.

[53:46] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. So it's virtually completely dark. They have a little bar, like they're sitting in a seat, a little bar comes over them, you know, like a rollercoaster bar. And every time one of them starts singing, they just pop on their own spot. And again, it's like, what more do you need? I think that's why the cast album is so impactful, because there's nothing else on the stage. It's just their voices.

[54:09] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, it's truly remarkable.

[54:10] Sam Herbst: And in what is probably the most ferocious piece of belting in all of musical theatre history, Alice Ripley just shouts at the top of her lungs, where is mine? And it elicits laughter from me, because it's so powerful and so emotional. I have no, I can't do anything else, but like, go.

[54:34] Jeff Parsons: Can I share with you quickly the equivalent theatre moment that I have that made me do that?

[54:39] Sam Herbst: Yes, please.

[54:40] Jeff Parsons: So shout out to Tom Zohar again. But we went to see a production of Carrie. And it was that production that they did in LA, like maybe five years ago.

[54:48] Sam Herbst: Oh yeah, absolutely.

[54:51] Jeff Parsons: It was at the Hotel Theatre.

[54:53] Sam Herbst: Thank you. Yes.

[54:54] Jeff Parsons: So shout out to them. I still think and talk about it to this day, as I'm doing right now. It was an event.

[54:58] Sam Herbst: It was truly an event.

[55:00] Jeff Parsons: And we drove to see it twice.

[55:03] Sam Herbst: Yes!

[55:04] Jeff Parsons: We were deep into it. But of course, during the destruction, where Carrie is just, you know, wreaking havoc in this gymnasium. Again, talk about a musical with bleachers. We were sitting in bleachers, and Chris Harkinson runs in to try and stop it. And she's, you know, kind of the female villain. And Carrie just ejects her up over our bleachers. And I was just so overwhelmed, not knowing what to do, that I just stood up, because a woman had flown over my head. That I just thought that that would be the appropriate reaction. It was like a one-person standing ovation, but it was wildly inappropriate and probably dangerous to the person. But moved to my feet.

[55:42] Sam Herbst: I think Tom mentioned in his episode that he once gave us an act one standing ovation to A Weekend in the Country. That was my Weekend in the Country moment.

[55:51] Jeff Parsons: Your standing ovation came when Valerie Rose Curiel just got flown, ejected over your head.

[55:59] Sam Herbst: Yeah.

[55:59] Jeff Parsons: At the end of the show. If you ever speak to her again, tell her that she moved me to my feet. That production was nuts.

[56:07] Sam Herbst: That's all we're saying.

[56:08] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. Thanks for listening to the Carrie podcast.

[56:12] Sam Herbst: The people are screaming for Carrie.

[56:13] Jeff Parsons: They'll get it.

[56:15] Sam Herbst: Okay, so after Tunnel of Love, the wedding's gotta happen. And...

[56:21] Sam Herbst: Totally defeated after the tunnel of love is like, I can't fake this anymore. I can't do this. I can't marry you. Daisy jumps in and says, Well, I have an idea. Why don't you marry me, Terry? And that way, there will still be a wedding. They don't care which one of us it is that gets married. You and I love each other. We just had this passionate moment on the tunnel of love. And he's like, Yeah, I can't do that either. Marry me, Terry, not in your life. I think she also says, Who is the freak show? The coward, the loud, marry you, Terry. No, I want you out. No, I want you out. Oh, so good. And I think somewhere in there, Jake kind of jumps in and yells at Buddy for being an opportunistic asshole.

Can we talk about just really quickly how there's like, almost no, like ensemble numbers like that wedding ticket song is like, 45 seconds long, and it gives you know, those people a chance to like, stop playing. Do something backstage. Yeah. And it's actually one of the reasons why I really love that. Say goodbye to the freak show song in the first act, because it feels like a true ending to these people that we just spent the first 20 minutes of the show getting to know. Yeah, the fortune teller came out and said she was the fortune teller. And now you're never gonna see her again. I'm a fortune teller. I could see the future. That part is just so jazzy that like, it will get stuck in your head.

It will. And it has. So the two sisters are, are on their own. And I think what Daisy ultimately says, it's Daisy, who is, you know, the more showbiz savvy of the two girls says, Look, buddy, you need to marry Violet because this will be good for all of our careers. You don't need to be a husband to her. But you need to step up and do this. And the truth is, if you're not the husband that she's always wanted, it doesn't matter because I'm here for her and I'm not going to leave her.

[58:19] Sam Herbst: Which is now another song that has this almost hilarious title, and yet a total emotion packed effect, which is I will never leave you. Boring song. Skip. Just kidding. How dare you? No, it's it's like the 11 o'clock number for these two ladies. And this marriage really becomes their marriage. They sing this song and realize that, you know, even if we could leave each other, the truth is that you are my soulmate. We've, for whatever reason, been born into this life with each other, and we will always be together, no matter what, whether it's physically, emotionally. And so after the number, when the wedding happens, yes, it is between Violet and Buddy. But I think we all know that it is a celebration of these two women who know each other so well simply because no one else could know.

Yeah. And I think even just, you know, you see them walk down the aisle and they have no choice but to walk down the aisle together. I mean, it is very much their wedding, regardless of who else is up there. And I think you get this, this reprise of really the only reprise in the show of come look at the freaks kind of from the onlookers during the wedding. And I, you know, at that point, knowing we know about all the characters, I mean, who is the real freak there? Is the people watching? Is it Buddy for kind of going through in this transparent wedding? Yeah, it's just it's just so empathetic. And the fact that these women are just staring at you, screaming their faces off just like forces you to come to terms with their humanity in a way that a lot of shows just quite frankly cannot.

[1:00:05] Sam Herbst: Well, it's just so brave. You know, there are just musicals that aren't as brave as this or who try to be as brave as this and then it comes off feeling preachy. And all it feels to me is emotional. Yeah, I love that this show wears its heart on its sleeve. Me too. So here's the thing with the revival, is that by the time the revival comes around, which was what, 2017? Yeah, maybe even slightly earlier, but somewhere around there, maybe basically 20 years later, the show has received cult status, you know, made superstars, at least in the theater world of Alice and Emily. And so it seems like the perfect show to become a Broadway revival. Bill Condon, who is an Oscar nominated director, signs on to direct the show, they kind of do some rewrites.

He had directed the film version of Dreamgirls, so he has a relationship with Henry Krieger. It seems like it's going to be this for sure thing. It opens on Broadway after playing at La Jolla, which is the production that you saw. It gets pretty much rave reviews all around and closes even faster than the original production. Yeah, it lasts like seven weeks, I think, which is, which is crazy. Yeah, it leads me to believe that this show was not meant to succeed on Broadway. Yeah, and sometimes that's okay. Even here in the Bay Area in California, not the biggest theater mecca in the country, by any means. I've seen like regional productions of sideshow that have done the damn thing with far less than what I saw in the revival, and have been really successful and have really wowed audiences.

[1:01:50] Sam Herbst: Wow, that's really cool. Yeah, you know, Broadway is such a business, and it's really hard to sell the whole concept to an audience, even to say to someone on the streets, come see a musical about conjoined twins. It's hard to fill those seats, but I do think that it will live on in our community theaters and local theaters, and certainly in my earphones, because sometimes I just need a little vacation to sideshow land. I think we, I think we all do. Yeah. And honestly, like, I think sometimes there, it is nice that there are multiple lives the show can live, where you can have a show that comes through Broadway and gets an album and is so important to so many people, and maybe can be put on pretty easily by a smaller theater production.

You know, I always think of like a Shrek the musical, or a Freaky Friday, where like those shows are going to, or Legally Blonde, which is going to run in schools, like for the next hundred years, and like how many people will get to see those shows and experience them or be a part of them. Freaky Friday is such a great show, never made it to Broadway, and will probably be the most successful show that never went to Broadway. That, I mean, where's that episode, because that show is a wonder. It's a true delight, and it's going to be in schools for a hundred years, and that is its own kind of success. Agreed, agreed. So thank you to everybody who made this really singular piece of theater. It was very transformative for me in my life, and I think that it has been for many others.

As I always say on this show, with these types of episodes, the F word known as the flop is not a curse word on this show. We lovingly look at flop musicals, quote unquote, with an eye to understand the society in which they were produced, as well as to gain something from the creative process, because there are always things from these projects that we love, and I think we have definitely covered that in this episode.

[1:03:56] Sam Herbst: There is one thing, however, that we still haven't quite come to an agreement on, and that is, of course, which of us is Daisy and which of us is Violet. I am willing to hear your reasoning and debate. You have two minutes. Well, first I would just like to say I love that I threw down this gauntlet and then immediately forgot about it. I really threw down this challenge. Okay, so based on what we learned about each other over the last hour or so, I think we've got to look at maybe who is more inwardly versus outwardly emotional. I think that's a pretty big distinguishing factor. Some things about me, I am not a crier in the least, so I think that that is minus one Violet point, perhaps. And that's definitely one pro-Violet point for me, being quite a waterworks.

And I feel like my stance, I don't know that I crave fame in the way that Daisy does, so I think that's minus one Daisy point. And yet, a plus Daisy point for me, who is still trying to make a living in the arts during coronavirus. And I was trying to think beyond that, yeah, arts in the time of coronavirus. I was trying to think beyond that, what are some of the smaller things? Because I had a feeling both of those would go that way, and that puts, really it's a tie for both of us on that. I was trying to think like, what did we think are some of the smaller things? Which side of the bed do you prefer to sleep on?

[1:05:36] Sam Herbst: Okay, so if I'm laying down the left side, that would be the Violet side. And I do have an ex-boyfriend named Jake, so just so you, I mean, if he's listening, he's not. Could you not bear what they would say if you left him that way? He is like a big strong man, and we do stan, so. And he also has probably played King Triton at some point. There you go. I also sleep on the left, however, so that's a moot point. That's going to be terrible when we go on our Broadway cruise together and have to share a bed to save money. It's going to be really uncomfortable for us. We'll just have to switch off. Yeah, we'll get two twin beds like My Love, Lucy. Yes, a little Dick Van Dyke action. What I was trying to think about too is like, how much of this is Daisy versus Violet, and how much of it is Alice versus Emily? And I was trying to think like, if you had to choose one of their bodies of work to have done personally, which would you be like more excited about?

[1:06:41] Sam Herbst: 100% Emily Skinner. Interesting, okay. Are there specific roles of hers that you just like really see yourself as? It's more that I'm grateful she doesn't have anything in her body of work that would induce a neuroses that could be crippling for the rest of my life, whereas Alice has spent her entire career being crazy. And I don't know how that would bear on my soul. Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, I always think of like the infamous Rocky Horror production where people were like throwing stuff at the stage and she was like, even I had to draw the line there. That's hilarious. The other thing that we're not really looking at is vocal ranges. Oh, wow. I actually am kind of intimidated by all of Emily Skinner's colors. What she unleashes in this show is, I mean, she has some moments in the Billy Elliott score for sure. But like, this is a show to end all shows in terms of just raw vocal talent for both of them, really.

[1:07:42] Sam Herbst: Oh, absolutely. Okay, so here's actually, this is the final deciding factor. We each need to do our best, like a clown whose tears cause laughter and that will decide who the daisy is. Okay, do you want to go first? Not really. But I will. Okay. Like a clown whose tears cause laughter. I don't even want to follow that up. I was trying to hit the R. The elocution was there. Can we just say you're the daisy? I was like, leaning up to it. And that's like, I don't want to follow that. Fine. Thank you. I will take daisy. But also that is the only like, part of the score that I could sing. We would both have to do. Is it Jekyll and Hyde where someone was sick and Kelly O'Hara had to stand off stage and just yell and sing for them? What is that show that I'm thinking of? But that's basically what Kelly would have to do for us.

[1:08:41] Sam Herbst: That was Jekyll and Hyde and it was Emily Skinner doing it for Linda Edder. Can you believe that? Listen, if that doesn't bring it all home. Seriously, that's a beautiful way to end this episode. I'm sorry. There it is. And that would be you. It would be you both on stage, not being able to sing the score and also you as Emily Skinner off stage somehow. That's a film choice and I'm here for it.

[1:09:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have a show that you would like to request us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast@gmail.com. Don't forget to follow us on Twitter and Instagram at amusicalpodcast for more great content. And Sam, how can we follow you?

[1:09:20] Sam Herbst: Oh, I'm just at Mr. Sam Herbst on everything. On Twitter and the Instagram. It's a great follow.

[1:09:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, well, thank you. I didn't come on this podcast to be flattered, but I will take it. Also, remember to check out our TeePublic store because we got some really cool designs that include favorite moments from some of our favorite episodes here on the show. I wonder what the sideshow one is going to be. I didn't realize you were a merch king. This is new to me.

[1:09:50] Sam Herbst: Yeah. Oh, it's new for me, too. Believe me. I didn't realize this was an empire that I was stepping into. All right, everybody, have a wonderful day. And just remember that we will never leave you. We will never leave you.

[1:10:05] Sam Herbst: There it is. Perfect.