This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Robert W. Schneider: And then, as I wanted to get into directing, I would take scripts and just imagine if I was directing it, what I would do with it. And so, I think…

[0:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That sounds like the most fun thing ever. I am so thrilled for little Rob that you did that.

[0:14] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, doctor. What a great therapy session this was today.

[0:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[0:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are looking at the musical that won our Flop Shop poll on Patreon! Each year, we do a bonus episode for our subscribers where we go to the Flop Shop and talk about a bunch of flop musicals—not a bad word—and then give subscribers the chance to vote on which one will get its own episode on the main feed. Just one of the many offerings and perks you get by joining us at patreon.com slash a musical podcast. Anyway, this year, the contestants were Big the Musical, Smile, Rags, and Sweet Smell of Success.

I would have truly been happy with whatever won, but let's be honest, I am currently wearing a Smile t-shirt from Tom's Trendy Tees, so I'm thrilled to say that the Marvin Hamlisch-Howard Ashman musical, Smile, was crowned the winner. Our guest for both the Flop Shop and today's episode is an award-winning director, producer, author, educator, and podcast host residing in NYC, where he is the artistic director of the J2 Spotlight Musical Theatre Company—a company, by the way, who just recently mounted their own production of Smile. Season two of his podcast, Broadway Bound, the musicals that never came to Broadway, is out now. Please, everyone, welcome a kindred spirit, the wonderful Robert W. Schneider. Yay!

[2:08] Robert W. Schneider: Hi, Rob.

[2:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Jeff, thanks so much for having me.

[2:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, Rob, I'm so happy you're here. You know that I could talk to you for hours and hours.

[2:22] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, you know, I love it. Before we proceed, I just need to let your audience know I have to thank Jeff. He just taught me something about my computer I never knew before. So, if you have any questions, if you need any technological things whatsoever, Jeff's your guy.

[2:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You know what? Look, the pandemic really forced us to become our own AV crew, and it's incredible the things we learned in the process. I learned, like, how many times you could punch a hole in, like, in a belt, because, like, I just, I put on a lot of weight during the pandemic. That's what I learned.

[2:48] Robert W. Schneider: The pan of brownies was happening weekly.

[2:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That, I completely understand.

[2:59] Robert W. Schneider: Daily! Daily! There was a time where I was, like, I love baking, and it's bringing me a lot of comfort, but now I need to start trying, like, black bean brownies to try and add a little more fiber. It was a brief stint. It was a brief visit. It didn't stay. It wasn't, it wasn't lasting, but I tried it. I tried it.

[3:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: A black bean brownie?

[3:16] Robert W. Schneider: Black bean brownie. It gave it a lot of texture.

[3:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, God love you. Okay, no, no, I'm like, eat what you want. Enjoy yourself. Do you work out? Do you go to the gym?

[3:29] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, yeah.

[3:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, I know. Good for you. The fear of, you know, dancing in a show and having to look at yourself in the mirror in the rehearsal room, that keeps you humble.

[3:33] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, I get, I understand. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for that. It's true, though. So, anyway, I'm so sorry.

[3:43] Robert W. Schneider: No, I just, I do remember, speaking of Smile, like, image and looks and all of the superficial things, I remember being in my 20s in a rehearsal room and looking at myself in the mirror and thinking, we need to upgrade the rehearsal wear, because if I'm going to be staring at myself for eight hours a day, I need to look better. Otherwise, I'm just going to feel horrible about myself.

[4:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How interesting. And that's when I went to Lululemon and I have, and we haven't, we haven't left yet. So, anyway, but, but thank you for being here. I have been wanting to create this episode forever for a couple reasons. Number one, I always say flop is not a bad word. And I think this might be one of my favorite examples of that, Smile. And number two, one of the, I mean, the only things I say more than flop is not a bad word is the purpose of this podcast, which is to discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history and the impact of Smile, a show that honestly, most people don't know, like the majority of people do not know. And if you are listening to this episode, please, thank you.

Thank you for clicking and for not just waiting for an episode for a show that you do recognize, but this show for better, maybe, and worse is, has a bigger footprint culturally than most shows that are, that were hits. And I can't wait to get to it all with you. So to, to begin though, I mentioned, you just got done doing a production of this at J2. And can you be kind of candid with me? How did it go? Did, did people come? How was it received?

[5:19] Robert W. Schneider: Oh my God. Um, it, it sold out every single performance sold out.

[5:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, cool. Cause I mean, it doesn't get done. So I would hope that there would be a bunch of people interested in seeing it.

[5:31] Robert W. Schneider: No. And what normally happens for us, honestly, cause we present these older shows is usually like our, like our first couple of performances are a little bit slow in terms of houses until word of mouth gets out. That was not the case on Smile. Um, we had, we had, uh, somebody flew in from Germany to see it. Somebody flew in from, um, uh, Ohio, California, and all because they're like, Oh, this was on my bucket list. I had to come see it. They were literally, Oh, Australia, somebody came in from Australia. So no, I swear to you. And so people would like, they come in, they, this is an important show to them. And they're like, I've never seen a production of it. So yeah, we were really, really lucky and it was very, very well received.

[6:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. That's fantastic. And did it feel working on it from a director standpoint? Did it feel dated?

[6:13] Robert W. Schneider: Did it feel honestly? No. Cause reading it, obviously reading it, it doesn't feel dated to me. No, I mean like there's, you know, there's eighties references, but like the overall themes. No, I think one of the issues with Smile, honestly, is that it was way ahead of its time as a musical.

[6:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I kind of agree and wanted to talk about things that the society wasn't ready to talk about. So if you don't know the show, or yes, your listeners know, you know, they don't know the show.

[6:38] Robert W. Schneider: Probably not, but, and we'll definitely get into it, but it, it basically revolves around a beauty pageant and like a teen, a teen miss. Like a pay for play teen miss. Yeah. And my worry after reading the show and kind of studying it more for this episode is that audiences might come in expecting a drop dead gorgeous, like it's going to be total camp, total satire, and there are satirical things about it for sure. But I mean, any show with Howard Ashman is going to have a lot of heart and a lot of soul.

[7:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How about heart? Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. So, so I'm glad to hear the audiences came in ready for it and eager and ready for it, eager and ready for it because we were like, we were saying before, you know, Smile. The reason it probably just didn't work the first time that we were saying was way ahead of its time. And, and now I think audiences are like caught up with all of that. So it was, like you said, it's a satirical thing about beauty pageants and like, what is beauty and who gets to say what it is. And also like, is it appropriate to have like 15 year olds parading around in swimsuits?

[7:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. So when it came out in 87, I don't, I think probably half the people were like, what is the problem with like a Miss America? Like, why, why are you, why are you pushing back against it? Then we had things like the movie Drop Dead Gorgeous. Right. And then we've had, or Dance Moms. And then, but also like on the flip side, like, unfortunately, like JonBenet Ramsey. So like now all of this stuff has, has been like in the cultural conversation now for so long. So I think audiences now are like, yeah, let's have this discussion. So Smile, I think got penalized for being like, let's talk about something. And everyone was like, I don't want to talk about that. And I would also argue that the undercurrent of this entire show, and I'm, I don't think it should ever be brought into modern day or anything like that.

I think it's squarely set in the eighties for a good reason, because underneath it all is this like Reaganomics, 1980s profit over people sort of mentality in America that they're really trying to talk about and using teens in order to do it. And I, and I wonder if for that reason as well, maybe people weren't ready to, to use teenage girls as a vehicle for talking about economic disparity and what the American dream means, you know?

[9:09] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, no, absolutely not. And what's funny is they weren't into it 10 years earlier when this, because it was a film.

[9:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you. So let's talk about that. When was it? 1970, 1975, 1975. It was 1975. It was directed by a guy named Michael Ritchie. And he also did the movie, The Candidate with Robert Redford. He wanted to, yeah. So he wanted to do this like American trilogy series where he like took certain things about America and show like the flip side of it. So like The Candidate is about how do you get elected and Smile was about like, what do Americans value? And when it came out in 75, critics loved it. Nobody came to see it.

[9:45] Robert W. Schneider: Wow.

[9:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Nobody came to see it.

[9:48] Robert W. Schneider: So it wasn't like some sort of John Waters thing.

[9:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, it was a full on film. Nobody came to see it. And I think that's because back then people also were like, what's wrong with a beauty pageant? Like, why is that? Why is that a horrible thing? We're celebrating women.

[10:05] Robert W. Schneider: Yes, we're celebrating.

[10:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What's the problem with that?

[10:08] Robert W. Schneider: Yep. Yep.

[10:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What I find kind of interesting is then when you look at what happened between the film and the musical coming out is Vanessa Williams is the whole scandal.

[10:19] Robert W. Schneider: Vanessa Williams.

[10:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right.

[10:20] Robert W. Schneider: Yes.

[10:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Is the whole scandal of Vanessa Williams, like losing her title of Miss America because she hadn't told anybody that she had posed nude for pictures at some point. That then ended up in Penthouse. And there was this whole huge, huge scandal. By the way, Vanessa turned out just fine. So everyone.

[10:42] Robert W. Schneider: Oh my God.

[10:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Calm down. But like, the scandal of that really can't be underestimated. So then I was wondering if there was like a liberal faction of the country that was like, who gives a...

[10:56] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah.

[10:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Everybody thought this is deeply inappropriate. And then the line has just moved more and more since then.

[11:05] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, I think people probably realized like, at the time, you know, or as time has gone on, like, that was just like overreactionary. Who cares? Who cares?

[11:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Anyway, I do think that in the 80s, there is at least number one, Miss America is still a huge, huge thing.

[11:23] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, massive.

[11:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And number two, there is starting to be a lot of scandal around beauty pageants, if for no other reason than like the drama of it all.

[11:33] Robert W. Schneider: Yes, yes. So it was topical, but people just thinking like, nope, I don't want to have this topic. It was also... Smile came out in a really weird year. It was the 86, 87 season. And that year, it was also the year that Les Mis came to Broadway.

[11:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Starlight Express came to Broadway. And Me and My Girl came to Broadway.

[11:50] Robert W. Schneider: Talk about British invasion.

[11:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, like this is the year. This is the season. This is the year the Brits won. And nobody really wanted to see this small show about America, whether it's Smile or Rags, which also came out in that same season. I'm trying to think what else came out in that season. I think Honky Tonk Nights was in there. So I don't know why I know that, but I do.

[12:16] Robert W. Schneider: Bravo.

[12:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What a life. But it was very clearly, if you were an American musical that was simple and small, you're not welcomed right now.

[12:24] Robert W. Schneider: We would prefer roller skates.

[12:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And Freight is great. Because I've looked at the Tony Awards and Starlight Express got nominated for Best Score over Smile. And Starlight Express has the lyric, Freight is great.

[12:41] Robert W. Schneider: That makes me very sad.

[12:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's all I'm going to say. Meanwhile, Howard Ashman has like, just created a show full of the most neurotic and anxious rhymes you've ever heard in your entire life.

[12:51] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, it's so good. Tomorrow Night is a killer beast.

[12:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Anyway, anyway, we'll talk about it.

[12:59] Robert W. Schneider: Yes. So so anyway, yeah, so it came out also it had it had a lot of things going against it, including like the one of the things that's really interesting, I think, on this one is like the producers wanted the show to be like a celebration of teenage girls, like they wanted it to be Bye Bye Birdie. And Howard Ashman and Marvin Hamlisch were like, no, it's a satire. It needs to be dark. And so they were constantly at odds with each other. And I think a lot of compromises were made that didn't necessarily help the show as well. Because I think one of the biggest criticisms was where people were like, Am I supposed to laugh at them? Am I supposed to care for them? And that never was really figured out, I think.

[13:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, and Howard Ashman has showed in his life that he's good at walking that line of yeah, kind of trashy, kind of campy, but also vulnerable Little Shop of Horrors. Hello, right. So I would trust him to figure out the right levels of satire and comedy and heart. But it's interesting that kind of almost in a Carrie sort of way producers are like more choreography or I don't know that that's kind of interesting to think about. I remember the first time I heard about this show was reading Not Since Carrie, aka The Bible, one of my all time favorite books by Ken Mandelbaum. And it was in the section of shows that he called, quote, not bad. Right?

[14:27] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah.

[14:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: These flops that were that were not—

[14:30] Robert W. Schneider: Any review you want.

[14:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Not bad.

[14:35] Robert W. Schneider: These shows that weren't catastrophes and that deserved a second look. So I got really interested and wanted to hear more, especially when I realized that Jodi Benson, the original, you know, voice of the Little Mermaid was in it. And so then I started looking for a recording, which doesn't exist. And I think that's maybe one of the big reasons why nobody knows this show, the no cast album was made. It does not exist. They were going to make one. And then when the show flopped, they backed out of it. And so there is nothing out there. Had this been released as an album, it would, trust me, it would be a whole different story. I agree. There is on the YouTube, you can find demo recordings, which they made after the show had closed, right?

[15:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, you had to license it. Yeah. So there is quite a bit of story and dialogue and everything mixed into those, but it's very much just demo quality. It sounds like somebody put it on a tape recorder, you know what I mean? But that is one of the only ways to listen to the score. So how did you first hear about the show?

[15:44] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, my gosh, there used to be these really cool CDs called Unsung Musicals. Okay, great. And the first one, I think had like three songs from Smile on it. And I was like, this goes, this is amazing. And so then that led to one thing after another. And for some reason, I had a Smile poster from the Broadway musical in my bedroom, but I had never really like examined it. I don't know. I used to collect show posters.

[16:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How cute.

[16:13] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you. I needed a friend like you when I was in school. We needed to go hang out at Colony Records, Rob. This is what I'm saying.

[16:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, we would have spent our entire allowance on.

[16:26] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, my gosh. So then I started to look at it. And there was a Samuel French in LA. I don't know if you remember. Right. And so I went down there and I found the script to it. And I was like, oh, this is kind of cool. And then as I wanted to get into directing, I would take scripts and just imagine if I was directing it, what I would do with it.

[16:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That sounds like the most fun thing ever. I am so thrilled for little Rob that you did that.

[16:52] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, doctor. What a great therapy session this was today. Wow. We talked about you at the Dance Mirror. We talked about me and my friends. Wow. This was wonderful. So, yes. So that's how I first discovered it. And then as I was lucky enough to get this theater company, I was like, I bet you we could do this on a smaller scale. It should be small. It should feel tawdry. This isn't Miss America. It's like a pay for play and they're renting out a school cafeteria. The Broadway production felt very glossy and very shiny. And I think that just goes against what the show's about. It's a little grittier, for sure.

[17:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It is grittier. For those who know California, you got Miss Merced for crying out loud and Miss Visalia and Bakersfield. These aren't the meccas of culture.

[17:43] Robert W. Schneider: No. Miss Modesto. Yeah, Modesto. Thank you. Although I was very sad and smiled. There is no Miss Ventura County. Well, look, she probably would have won, right? I mean, they were just jealous. Miss Westlake Village.

[17:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, Miss Westlake Village. Oh, my gosh. You know, it's funny because this show, these girls would have been their teens in the 80s. And I was like, I wonder what they would all be up to now, these characters.

[18:10] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, my gosh. Please bring it. And I know that Shawn, the bratty one, she has to be in Westlake. Now, she's in Westlake. 100%. Now, she's in Westlake Village. Yeah. Oh, man. North Ranch or whatever that place was called.

[18:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, yes. Absolutely. Right next to the Kardashians.

[18:28] Robert W. Schneider: Right next to the Kardashians. Yes. I remember, okay, I didn't know this until you told me that Smile was originally conceived without Howard Ashman involved at all.

[18:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Correct. So, talk to us a little bit about that. Who was doing the script at the beginning?

[18:41] Robert W. Schneider: So, originally, the score was going to be Marvin Hamlisch from A Chorus Line. And they're playing our song, for those who may not remember. And Carolyn Lee. Legendary lyricist. Famously got along with everyone.

[18:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. She loved everybody.

[19:01] Robert W. Schneider: She loved everybody. She's the one, right? She called a cop. Is that the story about her? They changed her lyric, and she called a cop in to make an arrest.

[19:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. 100%. I believe that was Little Me.

[19:11] Robert W. Schneider: So, she's very stable. And Thomas Meeham was doing the book.

[19:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. From Annie.

[19:19] Robert W. Schneider: From Annie. So, it was going to be those three. They did a version of it, and everybody hated it.

[19:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. Interesting.

[19:27] Robert W. Schneider: And so, they were like, okay, let's regroup. And so, they got rid of Thomas Meeham, and they brought on a guy named Jack Heifner, who wrote a play called Vanities.

[19:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, of course. Yes.

[19:38] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. It's about the three women.

[19:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The three women.

[19:42] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. Very Beauty Queen-coded.

[19:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, very much so. Honestly, he's the perfect guy for this assignment, right? So, then they decide to do another workshop of it. And they were like, it's going to be a very small, intimate workshop. And without telling anybody, Marvin Hamlisch invited every big Broadway producer, and he invited Bob Fosse and Michael Bennett. And basically, I don't want to say he pulled a fast one, but I think what Carolyn and Jack thought was going to happen was different than what actually did happen. Anyway, they pulled their material. They're like, we don't trust you anymore. So, Jack left the project. Then Carolyn Lee died. But they had a full script, full score, everything. So, then the producers were like, well, what do we want to do?

And Marvin Hamlisch was like, well, I want to keep going on with the project. Just find me a lyricist. And so, they brought in Howard Ashman, and they were like, can you rewrite Carolyn Lee's stuff? And he goes, I don't want to rewrite anything. I want to start from the ground up. That's the only way you can get me. And they made that agreement. And so, that's why we have a whole new score.

[20:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Got it. Now... Does that all make sense?

[20:55] Robert W. Schneider: Absolutely. No, that was beautiful. Thank you so much. Well, here's a PowerPoint. And if you're still awake after that explanation, congratulations to you.

[21:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You are on the right show, my friend. Let me just tell you that. My question then is, because I also believe, didn't you guys produce a one-night concert?

[21:13] Robert W. Schneider: We did.

[21:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: With the OG score?

[21:16] Robert W. Schneider: With the OG score, the original Marvin Hamlisch.

[21:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I haven't heard a bar, a measure, a lyric of this thing.

[21:22] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, okay. I'll send you some stuff. What's the diff? What's the sitch?

[21:28] Robert W. Schneider: It is dark. It is cynical. It's raw, and it is visceral. I think it probably would have been a show that made audiences uncomfortable and actually going, what did she say? So, it's very mean-spirited.

[21:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Because there's a lot of shits. There's a lot of cigarettes. There are things in Smile, but they went full hog on this one.

[21:50] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah. I mean, it's dark, it was cynical, and it was graphic. Not graphic in a very disgusting way, but just things that you probably wouldn't have been accustomed to hearing in a musical was suddenly being sung about.

[22:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Interesting. I mean, go Carolyn Lee, right at the end, pushing boundaries.

[22:07] Robert W. Schneider: She does not get the credit she deserves.

[22:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She really doesn't. I agree.

[22:11] Robert W. Schneider: One of the most... If you ever get the chance, go down to Lincoln Center Library, and look at her papers. She was working on stuff till the day she died. She did a musical. Friends, if you like the Broadway Bound, the musicals that never came to Broadway Podcast, we cover one of her musicals that never even got a production called Juliet of the Spirits. Oh, no, sorry, called Enter Juliet. Enter Juliet. And it is fantastic. Fantastic.

[22:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh, I've never heard of that. Apologies, Rob, that I haven't listened to all of them.

[22:42] Robert W. Schneider: Jeff, I'm going to be honest with you. I don't care as long as you subscribe.

[22:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As long as you subscribe, I'm not really interested.

[22:50] Robert W. Schneider: I don't care. You could never have listened to one a day in your life. I just need those five stars. I'm not asking for much, Jeff. And listeners of a musical theater podcast, also, you don't have to listen, but subscribe and five stars, please and thank you.

[23:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that so much because it's so real and a perfect conversation to have with Smile. I'm needy and need validation.

[23:15] Robert W. Schneider: So the whole score gets dumped. Howard comes on. Now, spoiler alert, the original production of Smile closes very, very quickly. How many? 48 performances.

[23:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Not much. And this whole process is enough to basically chase away two of our greatest theater talents, American theater talents in the 80s from the Broadway for a while, if not forever. Marvin Hamlisch, who had been consistently coming out with the musical every three or so years up until that point, goes away until The Goodbye Girl, which doesn't come out until, what, like 94 or something like that?

[23:52] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah, 94.

[23:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He looks over because he has a poster of it on.

[23:58] Robert W. Schneider: I do. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. There it is. Sorry.

[24:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I hope so.

[24:04] Robert W. Schneider: There you go.

[24:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so funny. That's wonderful.

[24:06] Robert W. Schneider: But the answer is yes. He's not the only one that really gets discouraged about the whole Broadway machine. Howard Ashman, maybe even more so, runs like his pants are on fire from theater, which is so sad because I look at him as one of our great theater advocates, musical theater advocates.

[24:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But you know what's so interesting? In a way, he kind of did come back to Broadway. He just wasn't alive to see it because think of the Beauty and the Beast stage musical, right? And then Aladdin and what else?

[24:40] Robert W. Schneider: And The Little Mermaid.

[24:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And The Little Mermaid. Come on!

[24:44] Robert W. Schneider: Absolutely. Absolutely. It was interesting that he was so kind of heartbroken by the biz of show that Broadway is and that maybe even theater is that the minute that he gets approached about going to Disney, which is fascinating because we'll talk about what Disneyland plays, what part Disneyland plays in Smile, he runs as fast as he can.

[25:11] Robert W. Schneider: I have voraciously consumed every piece of Disney footage that I can find that contains Howard because he's a hero of mine. I love how prickly he is, how sentimental he is. And I also just love the rules that he brought to musical theater in terms of what he thinks is an effective way to tell a story musically. Anyway, I really love him.

[25:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that, Jeff. I had no idea.

[25:42] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. But when he started The Little Mermaid, he was adamant, adamant that they treat this animated film like a piece of musical theater. And so he called all of the story artists and animators and maybe even story writers at Disney into this big room and they had a lecture where he took them through the history of musical theater and how it could be applied to animated film and specifically used demos that he and Alan had created for The Little Mermaid to prove that point so that they were all on the same page of what The Little Mermaid was going to be. And I'm going to try and find it, but there's this one little piece where he kind of talks about how he's lost a little bit of faith in audiences being able to take in musical theater in person.

After Smile, he thinks that maybe audiences can't handle real people standing in front of you singing their feelings, but maybe, maybe just maybe they can handle it in animation form. And I really do feel like that is because of Smile. And I'm probably projecting and conjecture and all of that. But in my heart, I don't feel like someone like him reaches that without a little bit of trauma in the creative process.

[27:06] Robert W. Schneider: And yet, like we have The Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast, like you said, and Aladdin because of it. So when I say flop is not a bad word, I mean, flop is not a bad word. Even the traumas, even the, the quote unquote artistic failures can sometimes point us into a direction, sometimes out of fear, sometimes out of sadness and disappointment, but maybe they start a revolution in film. Like you just never know what these works are going to do for not only other people, but for yourself and your own creative process.

[27:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Absolutely. So that is all because of Smile. It is so well put.

[27:52] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, well, thank you. But honestly, my childhood without those Disney animated films would be entirely different, entirely different. My understanding of what musical theater is would be entirely different without me in Willard, Utah, swinging around my arms like Lumiere for like the big key change of Be Our Guest. That type of that type of musical storytelling is ingrained in me. And I don't know if I would have ever got there without Smile being a flop.

[28:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's really beautiful. Oh, my gosh. Why? I wish you could have expressed that to our cast. My God.

[28:31] Robert W. Schneider: Well, thank you. They would. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I wish they could hear that. I mean, the show meant a lot to them. It's yeah, this is really beautiful. Thanks for sharing that, Jeff. My gosh. So you're a Disney person.

[28:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I am a Disney person and I worked there for many years. And I am fierce. I'm kind of fiercely protective of my love of Disneyland. Like I would only work there two days a week because if I did more than I was afraid that I wouldn't love it anymore, because like that is such a part of me and who I am.

[28:55] Robert W. Schneider: I think that is so sweet. I think that is I love that. Oh, my gosh. But it's also why I love Disneyland being a real

[29:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And symbol in this show that we have to get into. So are you ready to go through it with me?

[29:18] Robert W. Schneider: I am.

[29:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay.

[29:20] Robert W. Schneider: I am. The show begins with like a prologue. It's not...

[29:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It does.

[29:24] Robert W. Schneider: It's one of the only times that we're not at the pageant per se.

[29:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Correct. The show opens on a gentleman by the name of Dale Wilson Shears, and he is the president of the Young American Miss Pageant. And if you just send in some money, he'll send you a packet on how to produce your own local pageant. And then you meet all the girls in their various cities and counties. As they're getting ready, they found out they've been accepted to go up to the state competition in Santa Rosa, California. And it's a montage. The act one has six montages in it. It's very cinematic.

[30:01] Robert W. Schneider: Well, okay. So let's talk about that right away. The score isn't traditional in terms of songs.

[30:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No.

[30:07] Robert W. Schneider: Disneyland is the only maybe verse, chorus, bridge type song, right? In the whole piece. Everything else feels to me like Hello 12, Hello 13. Just montage after montage after montage.

[30:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. And that's also like, unfortunately, a criticism the show got, which was there was like, this is a chorus line, but with beauty pageants. It is interesting that the show includes somebody falling and hurting their ankle.

[30:34] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yes.

[30:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That would be like Lin-Manuel writing another show where someone goes, huh, at the very end of the show. Anyway. Okay. So we meet all these contestants. Now, who are the main ones that we need to discuss? Because it is a little difficult if you're reading the script to keep in mind who's who. There's a Ted, there's a Tommy, there's a-

[30:57] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, the big Bob, little Bob. I will say I wish Howard Ashman had more diversity in names just because Tommy, Ted, Bobby, big Bob. I'm just like, just try something else.

[31:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I wasn't sure if that was a film thing. Should I watch the film, by the way? I haven't ever seen it.

[31:15] Robert W. Schneider: If you can find it, yeah, the film's really good.

[31:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's difficult to find, right?

[31:18] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. But it is really good. It's very good.

[31:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. All right. I'll check it out.

[31:22] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. The two that you should know is Robin Gibson, who is a girl from Antelope Valley and she didn't want to be in the pageant. She got entered by a teacher. There was nobody else. So she's just sort of got selected. She was the only one who was really nominated.

[31:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. She's brilliant, but mousy. She grew up without a dad. Her dad passed away when she was three years old. So she's been raised by her single mom.

[31:49] Robert W. Schneider: Very close to her mom as well.

[31:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Very close to her mom. Good relationship with her mom. Then her bunkmate in this pageant is Doria Hudson, who's from Texas.

[32:00] Robert W. Schneider: Waco, baby.

[32:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Waco, Texas. And she won her Miss Dermatology pageant. I mean, she comes from a broken home and nobody at home notices her. And it's very clear that she just needs to be proven that she's a winner, that she's worth something. Because once the world sees she's beautiful, her family will see she's beautiful. It's very sad.

[32:21] Robert W. Schneider: It's heartbreaking from the get, too. It isn't like we see this girl and she's perfect and then we find out later on that she's from a broken home. From the get, she's like, I'm leaving and nobody cares.

[32:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Dead silence, which is cool because on the opposite side of the stage, you see Robin and her mom and her mom's hugging her and giving her like a lunch and like, you know, I don't want to let you go. It's really heartbreaking. Anyway, Doria's big dream is that she wants to win Miss America because it means Miss America can go to Disneyland and that's where they celebrate. And so in her mind, Disneyland is her Mecca. That's where she must be. And so those are your two main girls. Then there are some adults that are running the pageant, Big Bob and his wife, Brenda.

[33:09] Robert W. Schneider: Big Bob is somebody who represents who thinks only about the good in people. Brenda is the person who thinks only about the bad in people.

[33:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And they're married.

[33:16] Robert W. Schneider: So and they're married. And if this pageant goes really well, Brenda might be moving up to a higher position on this in this organization, which would be a pretty big thing for her.

[33:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Brenda's also got a grudge because 18 years ago she was a contestant and screwed up and lost the pageant. And now she is determined to be proven a winner in everybody's eyes. She is a complicated character who's constantly telling these girls, this is the best seven days that you'll ever live. I treasure my experience so much. But you're like, do you treasure the experience or are you haunted by this experience? You know, it's a really interesting look at why are we doing this as adults? And by this I mean anything. Are we obsessed with something because it haunts us or because we love it?

[34:05] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, a little bit of both. It could be a little bit of both. I mean, for her, I think for Brenda, though, it haunts her and she is determined to erase that bad taste. And nobody what's what's so sad is that she says this is going to be the best days of your life. And she's literally while she's saying it, her husband and son are standing right next to her. Like, it's not it's not the day that the son was born. It's not the day they got married. It's the day that she got to be in this pageant. And that's she's a heartbreak. And the actress we had do it over at our company. Holy sh. Nike, she's so brilliant. And so anyway, it's a very complicated, tricky role. And it's sad. It's just sad. All of these characters.

Well, no, there are some pretty crazy villains in it as well. But so many of these characters are sympathetic if for no other reason than like we said, there is no Miss Los Angeles. There's no Miss San Diego. There's no Miss San Francisco. These are not the huge cities and highly competitive fields. These are why there's no Miss Ventura County.

[35:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There you go, because it's just too big. It's too big. Sorry. I understand now. But thank you. It's interesting that the original production of Smile, Howard Ashman gets nominated for Best Book of a Musical. And then one of the other nominations is for Best Featured Actor, which was for the choreographer, the guy who played the choreographer.

[35:36] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, yeah. Michael O'Gorman. And I mean, it seems like a kind of a fun role, right?

[35:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh yeah. It's the best role in the show.

[35:46] Robert W. Schneider: He's this cynical. He's like Bob Fosse. Sure. Coming out of his mouth. And he literally comes in. He's got a bag. It's literally got like pills in it, a booze bottle and like a dance belt or something. And he comes in. He's smoking. It's the best role in the show. But he ends up being the one that the is the one the only one who's looking after these kids, which is really sweet.

[36:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. My point being is like there are some total villains, but everybody has a sympathetic side, a human.

[36:12] Robert W. Schneider: Yes. And nothing. And what I love about it is like nothing is what it seems like. You think the pageant is wholesome. It's the least wholesome thing on Earth. You think that this cynical guy walks in is going to, you know, take advantage of the girls. He ends up being the only one who's going to protect them like nothing. Nothing is what it looks like on the surface, which is, I think, kind of the whole point of what a beauty pageant is. And that's what they're criticizing. Like, yes, she's smiling and she looks perfect. But what did she do to get there? Totally. So Big Bob, Big Bob is the husband of Brenda. Does he sell used cars? He feels like kind of he sells RVs.

[36:49] Robert W. Schneider: Okay, an RV salesman. He has like car salesman energy generally known for not necessarily being the most. They have to make a sale. Yeah, they have to make a sale. They're making the sale more than. And so everything's like, you know, my customers are my friends. There's always this sort of slick way of making a sale that he's always trying to do. And yet he is also the person that is most adamant about American values, about believing in things. And he is also the head judge, which is just like so problematic that his wife is the one who runs the thing. And then her husband is the head judge. But he takes his job very seriously about picking the right person. And there is kind of like even a low key remark about Vanessa Williams.

He doesn't say her by name, but he says, like, you know, I wonder if I had been a judge, if I would have let someone like that sneak through. He has this high standard of honesty. He sees the best in people. And what's really sad is he has this song called Bob Song, which wasn't on Broadway originally. It was cut on Broadway. And so Howard Ashman included it in the licensed version. But basically what he's saying in the song is somebody asked me, like, why does this pageant mean so much to you? And he says, I know that my life is over. He's like a young guy. He's like thirty five. And he's like, well, I got a wife, a kid, a mortgage like there's nothing. Am I happy? Well, if I can't be happy, at least I'll make other people happy. And I'm just like, oh, it's so sad. What's interesting is he believes in the mission of the pageant much more than his wife.

[38:34] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, God, yes. She'll sell it out in a second.

[38:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. She's there for herself. Now, the whole pageant takes place in this one building.

[38:40] Robert W. Schneider: In one building. Yeah. So you've got like, you know, the offices where maybe they're conducting interviews. You've got the big open sort of cafeteria, like you mentioned, where they're actually doing the show. And then upstairs are these dormitories or bunks and the showers. They keep talking about the showers. Everybody's like, you're going to feel much better after taking a shower.

[39:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. They want to make sure, you know, the shower is going to be something to your friends.

[39:03] Robert W. Schneider: Exactly. And it is because what ends up happening is the son of Brenda and Big Bob, who's named Little Bob, has this whole side hustle, which once again, it's interesting that it's not because he's a horny teenager and wants to keep all of the photos for himself. He has this little side hustle where he's going to hide in like the air conditioner vent, porky style, take pictures of all the girls in the showers. And then he has people lined up that he's going to sell them to. Fifteen dollars if he can get full frontal, ten dollars for side boob, you know, like whatever it is. This is his business plan. And one of the most interesting things to me about this show is that as this goes down, as he takes the pictures of the contestants and then ultimately his dad finds out, this stark division that the dad has tried to create about my business is one thing, whatever I need to do to make a sale, that's fine, versus the values and beliefs that I have in this pageant, you can't keep them separated.

And I think he has that moment of realization that as much as he believes in this pageant, what he has taught his son is do what you can to make some money because that's the American way. And so when he finds out that his son has done this, he takes true accountability and responsibility for what his son did. At least that's how it reads to me.

[40:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, no, I agree. I agree with you. I think he thought he could have very clear boundaries and lines, and that is not the case anymore. And I've even heard Michelle Obama talk about that, where we can't be teaching our children one thing in the home and then go into the boardroom and do something else and expect that the children are going to grow up doing what we say and not what we do.

[40:55] Robert W. Schneider: Correct. Yeah, I agree with that. Now, put this all in the context of the 80s, Howard Ashman writing a book who's a gay man, there's an AIDS crisis, there's a president in the White House who's refusing to even acknowledge it, and yet at the same time spouting values and American life and blah, blah, blah. There is an urgent undercurrent to all of this storytelling that can't be ignored. Once we get into the pageant itself with the girls, Robin is a newcomer, like you said, doesn't really know what she's doing. Doria is an old pro. And at some point, Doria, a.k.a. Miss Texas Pro, a.k.a. Jodi Benson from The Little Mermaid, takes on Robin as her project because she's convinced that Robin is going to be the winner, that this newbie...

[41:44] Robert W. Schneider: All Robin has to do is just simply say she doesn't have a dad.

[41:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And Doria's convinced that that'll be a sympathy vote. And she'll win. And what's interesting is, I think in a lot of other musicals, she would go, oh, that's my competition, now watch me destroy her. And in this musical, they go, no, I'm going to help her. And to me, that is a much more interesting dynamic.

[42:09] Robert W. Schneider: 100%.

[42:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We just got done talking about in Death Becomes Her, like women pit against each other or the competition of that. That's not the case here. Doria is like, from the get-go, is like, I'll make you popular.

[42:21] Robert W. Schneider: Exactly. So that's it. But Robin resists that. Robin goes, that feels really cheap. That feels dirty, like, icky. And I think when Robin says, my dad died so young, I don't remember him. I don't think she's lying. Like, I, you know, I don't think she's like trying to go, oh my God, I'm so sad. I don't have my dad. Like, it feels cheap to her because it doesn't mean anything, if that makes sense.

[42:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Can we also talk about Miss, where is she from?

[42:56] Robert W. Schneider: I don't know, the sweet girl of Mexican descent.

[43:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, Maria Gonzalez, Selena's young American Miss. So she kind of is the dark horse in the race because she comes in and everyone is like, oh my gosh, she has an accent. She's so not American, right? She's coming with a bag full of avocados and is going to be making guacamole for the judges for her talent. And in particular, this one queen named Sean is just the most racist, bigoted gal you could ever think of and treats her very, very poorly and is incredibly jealous of, honestly, how hard she's working and how great.

[43:47] Robert W. Schneider: She is. It's kind of undeniable how the star power of this chica, yeah?

[43:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. That's actually a thing I think most people were most interested in with seeing SMILE again, which was like, how do you handle this character of Maria in 2025? And I know a lot of people were like, why are you doing this? Or like when we sent out the auditions and those sides, I know a lot of actors were like, what is this? She sings a song about guacamole. This is so offensive. And it's like, well, you know, you have to know the whole context of the show to understand like, why she's doing what she's doing.

[44:22] Robert W. Schneider: And by the way, it's not, at least the way that I read it is that it isn't making fun of her. It's actually her celebrating her culture in a way that is so memorable, that it's a great device to help her stand out.

[44:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, yeah. And the actor who did it for us in our production, her name's Beatrice, and she and I decided that Maria is a character who code switches to get ahead.

[44:52] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, interesting.

[44:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That she, she's probably the smartest girl in the competition.

[44:56] Robert W. Schneider: Undeniably.

[44:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And her feeling is, is that in order to change the rules of the game, you have to play the game and win it. So she'll go in and she'll over-accentuate her accent. She'll remind everybody of her heritage. She'll do exactly what all these white judges, male judges want to see, which is a cooking demonstration. And then when she gets to the top and she wins, then she can get rid of all that crap and actually be a human being and show the world that people that are Latinx are not the stereotype they think.

[45:31] Robert W. Schneider: That you can't, you know what I mean? So like, she wants to, so that's how we played it. And she did this really cool thing. There's a little bit of, there's a little tiny scene in the show where Maria is giving instructions to the stage manager.

[45:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it's three.

[45:46] Robert W. Schneider: The most important part of her character.

[45:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. It's literally four lines. She says, when I do this, you do that. When I sue this, the lights go like that. When you do this, the sound doesn't, do you got it? And the stage manager says, I got it. And then Brenda comes in and goes, are you ready to go, Maria? And Maria just goes, see.

[46:03] Robert W. Schneider: And what we did was the actress, the actress used her regular speaking voice for the instruction part. And then when Brenda came in, she put on her affectation, the character. And that, that seemed to work for us. And I think, I don't know, but that was the big thing. Cause I think a lot of people, if you look at the original, it looks like Maria actually is just there to be that stereotype.

[46:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Interesting.

[46:28] Robert W. Schneider: And to like the guacamole number isn't, it's not satirical. It's not, it's real. It's like, I'm, there's no, there's nothing beyond it. So I don't know. I don't know.

[46:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, it's the way that I took it is, is kind of what Doria always talks about in terms of how do you, and even Tommy, the choreographer, you have to find something that makes you stand out in this competition, right?

[46:54] Robert W. Schneider: Yep. There's a scene where they all have umbrellas, they're dancing with umbrellas, excuse me, and Robbins doesn't open and she runs off stage crying. And she runs into the choreographer. He goes, this is, he goes, they're going to remember you. Like now they're going to remember you. Kids would kill for this. Plus she's won the academic competition. She's, and all she's got to do is lay that sob story on the table.

[47:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And she walks away with a pageant, a pageant she did not even want to be a part of. But now she's starting to, to feel like, Ooh, it's possible.

[47:27] Robert W. Schneider: It's there. Maybe I can do it. Maybe I can get that dream.

[47:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And one of the things we talked a lot about in like the rehearsal process for the show is like, at what point in your life do you stop living for other people's validation? Like at what point? And that's what, and that's this, to me, that's what I think the show is like trying to say, which is like, if you're an adult and you're looking at a young impressionable child and you're saying the only thing that really matters is how pretty you are, how this you are, how that you are, then you're going to spend the whole rest of your life as a human being trying to find people to validate those things. But what about your own validation?

[48:02] Robert W. Schneider: Like, what about like, why do I have to worry about what other people think of me? If other people think I'm pretty or I'm smart or I'm this or I'm that, like as long as I think it. So, and I think that's a big thing this show is dealing with.

[48:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Also going to that piece of feminism where it's like, you know, you don't have to be pretty, you can be smart too, is not exactly a great form of feminism because the truth is, is that you don't have to be anything in order to have that validation, right? You can just be you and still merit respect, not only from yourself or those around you, but in this kind of American rat race of playing the game of making the sale of doing the thing. There are all of these rules that some people in this competition have learned quicker than others. The, in the case of Robin, she's slow to the game, but is slowly catching up thanks to Doria and is getting a taste for that.

[49:07] Robert W. Schneider: And then you've got people like Maria who is creating her own rules because of her particular situation in life and that creates enemies. And I can think of no truer storyline for a person of color or underrepresented populations because what it ends up doing is creating this enemy, Sean. She's the one who discovers the guy taking the pictures in the shower, agrees to not tell on him if she can have the pictures of Maria Gonzalez. And then she puts that, and this is so dark. She takes the naked picture of her and puts it into the slideshow that's going to be in the final big showing. So when they do the big smile number, the big title number, and each contestant goes and stands in front of her picture and does like a big old smile pose instead of the beauty pageant shot, it's Maria in the showers.

And of course it's devastating and almost ruins the entire evening, except that Brenda, who has absolutely no concern for Maria, in fact, even thinks that maybe she was the one who did it to create a scandal, goes out there and tells the whole audience, please don't punish the pageant for the decisions of a few. This is the greater good. This is the scholarship that I got when I was younger and please let's make it happen for everyone else. The message wins over the crowd, but it doesn't win over the judges who have decided that this can't be a fair competition because Maria was the front runner and now she's gone for reasons that nobody is willing to investigate.

[50:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now let's talk about what happens.

[50:58] Robert W. Schneider: Oh God. So Maria leaves the pageant. Maria leaves the pageant because she should have won. And when Dale Wilson Shears shows up, right, the owner, the guy, the owner of the organization, and he is pissed and he tells Brenda, he goes, this is a catastrophe. He's like, this is a disaster. This is going to ruin everything. There's no way this woman is getting a promotion, nor will she ever be allowed to participate in another competition again. And then at that point, Brenda starts changing ballots. Big Bob tries to stop her and he says, I'm the head judge and I don't think we should pick a winner. And she says, you're fired. She fires her own husband.

[51:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So at the end of the day, and correct me if I'm wrong, the judges don't pick anybody. It's her. She's the one who picks the winners. It's her. She will do whatever needs to be done on that ballot. So it's not a thing of merit. And then after Big Bob sees his wife fire him and literally uproot everything that he believes in, she's throwing out the window and just saying, be quiet. And as if that's not bad enough, Big Bob overhears his son on the telephone saying, yeah, I'm the one who took the pictures and I'm still selling them. And he offers one of his friends a deal on like a naked girl photo by saying, and remember, tell him Little Bob's customers are also his friends, which is his dad's tagline.

[52:22] Robert W. Schneider: And as the dad is then like leaving, he overhears at the pageant, he overhears Robin saying, I want to win this pageant. She says this to the judges. I really want to win this pageant because it would mean a lot to my dad. I lost him when I was three. And she sells out. She did what she didn't want to do.

[52:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So then the time comes to announce the winners, which by the way, another great character, this hack of a comedian.

[52:50] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, Ted Farley. Wait, can I tell you a quick story about this?

[52:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay. So the guy who played Ted Farley for us, his name is Christopher Kier. This guy's had this amazing life for like 25, 30 years. He was the head ringmaster for Barnum and Bailey Circus.

[53:06] Robert W. Schneider: What?

[53:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. Okay. So.

[53:09] Robert W. Schneider: Like you're hired.

[53:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm like, now he sends in his audition tape and he's like, and on the beginning of the tape, he's like, I wanted to play this role for 40 years. And I was like, I'm like the emcee and smile who only shows up in act two, like a show that nobody knows. I was like, don't BS me. Like, don't be like, this is a role I've always wanted to play. Okay. Then he told this really cool story. He was like, I went to go see smile on Broadway with my best friend. And when that guy came out, the emcee, my best friend elbowed me and said, in 40 years, that's a role for you.

[53:48] Robert W. Schneider: And last year, his best friend who said that to him passed away. And he's like, and he goes, nothing would mean more to me than like honor it. Like that, like that prophecy coming true and honoring the guy that way. And I was like, sure. Maybe this story is exaggerated. Who knows? Nope. The sister, the sister of the guy came and was like, no, this is a true story. And so I was like, isn't that a sweet, that's the sweetest thing. I'm so glad you shared that. How adorable.

[54:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. Anyway. So, but yes, Ted Farley is the hack emcee. They don't allow him to miss America's. He's not that good. I always imagine like he would host a game show for a season and it would get canceled and then they bring him on for another game show and then it'll get canceled. Like this guy, like he doesn't, he doesn't have like a thing. He's like, he's an off-brand Wink Martindale.

[54:33] Robert W. Schneider: He's an off-brand Wink. Martindale joke for the crowd is they wanted to get somebody younger than me, but George Burns was unavailable. That's who he is. Nobody's laughing at this guy. That's that's who he is. It's amazing.

[54:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So anyway, so now it comes down to four finalists. It's Robin Doria. Now they're in competition again. Sean Christensen, the girl who put the photo in the slides and a rando girl named Sandra Kay McAfee, who you've seen her a little bit throughout the show, but she's not that like.

[55:09] Robert W. Schneider: She doesn't really pop, right?

[55:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, she does a ventriloquist act. They ask her a question. They're like, what's your view on like pollution? And she goes, I think it's a good thing and a bad thing. Like she talks out of both sides of like, like, and you're just like, who is somehow she's now part of like the final four.

[55:28] Robert W. Schneider: It's interesting. She just manages to not be polarizing. Like that's kind of her only thing, right?

[55:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: She's safe. She's so safe. By the way, I always think it's hilarious in beauty pageants, and especially when there's these young women that are supposed to be the hope of America. Like there's even songs that talk about, right? Like this is the future. And so you get them up there on stage, and then you force them to answer questions that like adults can't even figure out.

[56:05] Robert W. Schneider: Yeah. Like, how would you solve abortion? And she's like, um, I'm a child. You know what?

[56:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, like, it's, it's crazy that we do that. But it's such a projection that we put on the children that we're like, welcome to being an adult, you have to solve these problems. And I feel like the children should be like, you solve the problems. And then we'll go for you.

[56:14] Robert W. Schneider: I agree. I agree. But you're right. It makes no sense. It makes no sense.

[56:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You shouldn't be telling us what to do in Iraq. You know, like, anyway,

[56:24] Robert W. Schneider: I don't know, maybe one of the kids has a good idea. You don't know.

[56:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Look, if the kids have better ideas than the people in the cabinet, which to be clear, might be possible right now.

[56:33] Robert W. Schneider: The absolutely, that's even a bigger problem. But continue.

[56:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Let's get the five year old. She's got some idea. She's a thinker.

[56:43] Robert W. Schneider: If you want to see some of the girls that would enter this kind of pageant, very quickly, I have to tell you, I will, I'll send you this link. Just YouTube. Miss Wisconsin, Miss Teenage Wisconsin, 1988.

[56:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, fantastic.

[56:59] Robert W. Schneider: And get ready for some amazing things. I'll send you the link.

[57:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Look where I'm from. We have the Peach Queen pageant.

[57:07] Robert W. Schneider: Because there's peach day.

[57:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so funny. That was my nickname in high school.

[57:10] Robert W. Schneider: I know they named an award after me.

[57:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I like peaches.

[57:17] Robert W. Schneider: I'm sure I'm sure that's why.

[57:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So what the heck is wrong with everybody? There's the Peach Days Festival. We're big into stone fruit in northern Utah. And Peach Days like the big culmination is the Peach Queen pageant. And I have friends who have won the Peach Queen pageant. But like going there and watching the talent competition is always fodder for just giving you material to think of for the rest of the year that will bring you great joy and laughter.

[57:37] Robert W. Schneider: You know, you see you've seen the white girl who sings that I'm telling you I'm not going.

[57:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, I saw at the Peach Queen pageant, the white girl who sang One Night Only. And if you would have closed your ears and just looked at her, you would have thought she was killing it.

[57:48] Robert W. Schneider: Okay.

[57:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, I mean, yeah, One Night Only. One Night Only. But then it's kind of like lightly mixed. Let's not pretend to care.

[58:05] Robert W. Schneider: Oh, that's beautiful. Does she always have to clap on the one of the three?

[58:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's great. It's beautiful. That's great. I've seen quilting while like that.

[58:23] Robert W. Schneider: So, "Smile" is a musical that really dives into the complexities of beauty and the pressures that come with it, especially for young women. It’s based on a film that was released in the 1970s, and it was adapted for the stage by Howard Ashman and Marvin Hamlisch.

[58:53] Robert W. Schneider: The original production had a lot of promise, but it struggled to find its footing on Broadway. It opened in 1986 and, despite the talent involved, it didn’t resonate with audiences at the time.

[59:23] Robert W. Schneider: One of the interesting things about "Smile" is how it tackles the theme of superficiality in beauty pageants. It’s not just about the glitz and glamour; it really explores the emotional toll it takes on the contestants.

[59:53] Robert W. Schneider: The score by Hamlisch is beautiful, and Ashman’s lyrics are poignant. They really capture the inner thoughts of the characters, which is something that I think is often overlooked in discussions about the show.

[1:00:23] Robert W. Schneider: When I directed this production, I wanted to highlight those emotional aspects. We focused on the characters' journeys and how they navigate their self-worth in a world that often values them based on their appearance.

[1:00:53] Robert W. Schneider: The cast was incredibly talented, and they brought so much depth to their roles. It was a joy to see them connect with the material and with each other on stage.

[1:01:23] Robert W. Schneider: I think audiences were surprised by how relatable the story was, even though it’s set in the context of a beauty pageant. The themes of self-acceptance and the pressure to conform are universal.

[1:01:53] Robert W. Schneider: It’s interesting to see how "Smile" has gained a new appreciation over the years. Many people are starting to recognize its significance in the landscape of musical theatre.

[1:02:17] Robert W. Schneider: The show has a lot of heart, and I think that’s what ultimately resonates with people. It’s about finding your own voice and being true to yourself, which is a message that never goes out of style.

[1:02:41] Robert W. Schneider: I also think the production design played a huge role in bringing the story to life. We wanted to create a vibrant world that reflected the excitement and anxiety of the pageant experience.

[1:03:05] Robert W. Schneider: The costumes were particularly fun to work on. They had to be eye-catching but also convey the characters' personalities and struggles.

[1:03:29] Robert W. Schneider: I remember one moment in particular during rehearsals where one of the actresses really connected with her character's journey. It was a powerful reminder of why we do this work.

[1:03:53] Robert W. Schneider: The audience's reactions were overwhelmingly positive. They laughed, they cried, and they left the theatre talking about the themes and the characters.

[1:04:23] Robert W. Schneider: It’s always rewarding to see people engage with the material on such a deep level. It makes all the hard work worth it.

[1:04:53] Robert W. Schneider: I think "Smile" is a show that deserves to be revisited. It has so much to offer, and I hope more people get the chance to experience it.

[1:05:17] Robert W. Schneider: There’s a lot of potential for future productions, and I’d love to see how different directors interpret the material.

[1:05:47] Robert W. Schneider: The conversations around beauty standards and self-image are more relevant now than ever, and "Smile" provides a unique lens through which to explore those issues.

[1:06:11] Robert W. Schneider: I also think the music is timeless. Hamlisch’s melodies are catchy and memorable, and they really enhance the storytelling.

[1:06:41] Robert W. Schneider: It’s a shame that the original production didn’t find its audience, but I believe that with the right approach, "Smile" can resonate with new generations.

[1:07:05] Robert W. Schneider: I’m excited to see how the show continues to evolve and how it can be presented in a way that speaks to today’s audiences.

[1:07:29] Robert W. Schneider: Overall, directing "Smile" was an incredible experience, and I’m grateful for the opportunity to bring this lesser-known gem to life.

[1:07:55] Robert W. Schneider: I hope that by sharing our production, we can inspire others to explore the show and its themes.

[1:08:25] Robert W. Schneider: It’s all about celebrating the humanity of the characters and the stories we tell through musical theatre.

[1:08:47] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you for having me on the podcast to discuss "Smile." It’s a show that I’m truly passionate about, and I appreciate the chance to share my insights.

[1:09:17] Robert W. Schneider: If anyone is interested in learning more about the production or the themes we discussed, I’d love to connect with them.

[1:09:45] Robert W. Schneider: You can find me on Instagram @robwschneider, and I’d be happy to chat about "Smile" or any other theatre-related topics.

[1:10:09] Robert W. Schneider: I also encourage everyone to support their local theatre companies and to explore the rich history of musical theatre.

[1:10:37] Robert W. Schneider: There are so many incredible stories waiting to be told, and every production contributes to the larger narrative of our art form.

[1:11:05] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you again for this opportunity. I hope everyone enjoys revisiting "Smile" and discovering its importance.

[1:11:33] Robert W. Schneider: Let’s continue to celebrate the magic of musical theatre together!

[1:12:01] Robert W. Schneider: I look forward to seeing how "Smile" continues to impact audiences in the future.

[1:12:29] Robert W. Schneider: And remember, it’s all about finding joy in the journey, no matter how challenging it may be.

[1:12:39] Robert W. Schneider: Thank you!