This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Ryan O'Connor: I'm going to start with a story, not to ruin the ending, but the ending of this story is my parents were freaking amazing. It's like my, I don't know. It was one of my teenage birthdays. I'm going to say like 16, 17. I wake up on my birthday. I go upstairs, you know, because my room's in the basement. Basements, by the way, so cool. I miss basements living in California. I come up from the basement. My birthday cake is on the table. Supes cute. And on that birthday cake is the double disc cast album of Sunset Boulevard. Like as a decoration, like it's standing up straight, like in the frosting. They went to like Hastings Books and bought the double disc, which is, you know, is fat. It's not just your normal CD Jewel.

Yeah. Oh, no, the double disc with the thing in the middle that you have to crack open if you're if you're opening the side that has Act One and the libretto or the side that just has Act Two. Absolutely. Thank you. It's a very specific that sound. If I could bottle that sound as a memory of that pop of a double disc cast recording. Oh, so good. Which leads us to, of course, isn't it weird? Why did Into the Woods have a double disc thing? Because they only had one disc. You know why? Because of that fat book. Yeah. Because of all those words. They had to slap you with that. It's the only album I know in history where there are so many words in these songs that in order to print them out, you had to have a book that looked like it was a double cast recording.

Right. Right. But Sondheim tempos are such that they all fit on one disc. Exactly. This is so true. OK, go on. Yeah. So it's sitting there in the frosting. I have a summer birthday and that is the moment when I fell in love with Sunset Boulevard. I think because even though it's moody and evocative and drama filled with maybe a touch of camp, I will always think of my birthday cake.

[2:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that. Wait, I do have one question. What was that? What was the decor on the rest of the cake? Was it just like a white icing?

[2:11] Ryan O'Connor: It was literally white cake. Happy birthday, Jeffrey. Sunset Boulevard. I really love that. I really love that because they were like, you know what? We have the accent at home.

[2:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. Focal point. We don't need your Albertsons birthday balloons. We don't need your like tinted icing. We're going to take white icing and we know what our son needs. Thank you, Glenn Close. If they weren't capable of actually crafting the staircase into a cake, I mean, then you know the woman, the woman working at like Harman's who decorates cakes and they bring like John Napier's set design is like we're thinking maybe something our poor parents, our poor parents, just like we're trying to give them what they want, but it's so specific.

[3:12] Ryan O'Connor: Welcome, everybody, to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional, what is it? Cultural and emotional impact. Welcome.

[3:26] Ryan O'Connor: Welcome, everybody, to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons, but you know what? You can call me Jeff. Today, we are talking Sunset Boulevard, and my guest is the only person I know who wears caftans more than Norma Desmond. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Ryan O'Connor.

[3:47] Ryan O'Connor: Hello. I'm so happy to be here. I feel like it's even though it's a podcast, I feel it's important that people know that I'm not just a casual caftan wearer. I have so many that the most soundproof place to record a podcast in my home is in front of a wall of caftans because it's the most fabric sound. You can't see it, but my sound barrier on the other side is a giant teal kimono, which I feel Norma would also wear, but that's my thickest piece. It's like my thickest piece of fabric.

[4:18] Ryan O'Connor: The kimono has the textural strength. It does. In the future, Beyoncé will be lining all of her recording studios with kimonos once they get the memo. What's up with the caftans though? Can you tell me?

[4:33] Ryan O'Connor: Well, caftans are what I consider to be the freedom garment. The thing that people often say is that caftans are flattering on everybody. That's not true. Caftans are equally flattering on nobody. Nobody looks good in a caftan, but everybody looks fabulous. Oh my gosh. Put it on a t-shirt. It's happening. I'm pretty sure that we just found... We have a Tee Public store, and I'm pretty sure that is what's going on.

[5:02] Ryan O'Connor: Oh my God. Amazing. Great. I'll be the first to buy it. I started wearing them. I was never a drag queen type, but as a kid, I always gravitated towards my mom's big flowy skirts that I would always put on, and then also cover myself in sheets and stuff. There's something about being covered in lots of fabric, but lightly on your body, which I can get really dramatic about it and talk to you about how my favorite saying in the world is, wear the world like a loose garment. I mean, I can really go deep and hippy dippy about what caftans mean to me, but I get it. I understand why Norma wore... She actually wears more kimonos than caftans, but she is a caftan aesthetic for sure.

[5:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. You're right. It's a caftan aesthetic. You're exactly right. Any garment you can wear that the tag says one size fits most, that's my aesthetic. I appreciate any garment that... Because yes, the freedom, the breeze, all of that. Also, if you want to do a dramatic exit, I love a garment where you turn and it doesn't end. The swinging of the fabric only punctuates. It's almost like the fabric is applauding you as you exit and reminding the audience to do the same.

[6:23] Ryan O'Connor: That's fantastic. Now, I knew you would be a great guest for this, not just because of the caftans, but also because you just love old films. You love all the ladies. You love all the leading ladies. I had a podcast for almost four years called Ladywatch, which is the only podcast dedicated to celebrating women over the age of Celine Dion, which we did for a long time. We still do two specials a year now because we still have our following. Ladywatch is more than a podcast. It's a lifestyle. We have Google Alerts on I think it's a thousand women now, women over 50, character actresses, politicians, politicians' wives.

[7:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Can you tell me who's one of your favorites that's no one else's favorite?

[7:09] Ryan O'Connor: When Hello, Dolly! was running on Broadway, we were, of course, always excited to hear about who else could be playing Hello, Dolly! But once Donna Murphy came in and she did those Tuesdays, we became obsessed with Tuesday dollies. It was always talking about who are the Tuesday dollies. Randy Graff, Nancy Opel. These are Tuesday dollies. These are not eight-show dollies that are like, actually, we had said Carolee Carmelo was a Tuesday dolly, and then she ended up being the tour dolly, which it's a fine line between Tuesday dolly and tour dolly. Things like that. I would go see Randy Graff dolly over Bette Midler dolly.

[7:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Same. I went to see Donna Murphy dolly over Bette Midler dolly. I was in town, and I only had time to see one, and I was only going to see Hello, Dolly! once because I didn't want to. I was like, which am I going to see, Donna or Bette? I was like, you know who I am? I'm the one who goes to see Donna.

[7:59] Ryan O'Connor: You're a Donna boy. I get it. I saw Bernadette.

[8:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I appreciate you. Bette's dolly, I hadn't seen it, but I could see it. I knew what it was. That's not a dig.

[8:09] Ryan O'Connor: No, not at all. In fact, if anything, it speaks of her iconicism.

[8:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. All that being said, what is your relationship to Sunset Boulevard and or one Norma Desmond?

[8:23] Ryan O'Connor: Well, if you ask me about what's your favorite film, that's a whole conversation that's difficult for me to have. If you ask me about the greatest films of all time, that's a different. I can be a little bit more categorical, and I can tell you that the greatest film of all time is All About Eve, and the second greatest film of all time.

[8:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know what you're going to say.

[8:42] Ryan O'Connor: The second greatest film of all time is Sunset Boulevard. It blows my mind that these films were in the same Oscar season, and they both have my two favorite scripts in all of film history. It blows my mind. They were both shot at the same time. They are both craftsmen. They're crafted. They have that California craftsman look. They're like a California craftsman home. They are built consciously and perfectly one plank of wood at a time. These are not accidentally great films. These are films that started with a great screenplay, with great directors, with great actors, and they at every turn made the choice to make great art, which is amazing because I also think that great art often comes from the miraculous of events.

Some things come together, and they're like, yeah, that was supposed to be a total disaster, and it came together and was great. That is not the story of Sunset Boulevard or All About Eve. Those were crafted to be fantastic films, and they were successfully fantastic films, and that's because everyone involved was at the top of their game.

[10:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely, and that is amazing because that's what everyone creating art should always be shooting for, not for, well, we'll just pull it together, and it'll be what it'll be. Yes, of course it will. That's the magic. But it'll be what it'll be when you're shooting for the moon is going to be better than it'll be what it'll be if you're shooting for, I don't know, what's under the moon?

[10:19] Ryan O'Connor: Russia. I don't know why that came to mind.

[10:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Then if you're shooting for Russia, you're right. You're absolutely right.

[10:25] Ryan O'Connor: Nailed it. Perfect. See, that's how chess was born.

[10:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is another episode, y'all. It's interesting talking more about All About Eve and Sunset Boulevard. In many ways, All About Eve is the Sunset Boulevard of Broadway. And Sunset Boulevard is the All About Eve of Hollywood, right? They're both commentaries on the culture and lifestyle of what it means to be in the performing arts for a living, along with the consequences of fame. Sunset Boulevard, however, I think we see more as a drama nowadays, and we see All About Eve as a comedy. But when these two movies came out, which I think was 1949, 1950, Sunset Boulevard was a comedy.

[11:16] Ryan O'Connor: Oh, absolutely.

[11:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It walked this really fine line of taking down its own industry, commenting on the craziness of Hollywood. And Hollywood tends to be so self-obsessed that everybody was game. So, you watch the old film of Sunset Boulevard, and you have Cecil B. DeMille making cameos, and all of these little touches of reality warp the fantasy. It's so meta. You don't know if what you're watching is true or not true, or real life or fantasy. It's all just its own thing, and it's a masterpiece.

[11:59] Ryan O'Connor: I probably first saw both of these films either actually sat down and saw them or saw them in the back. I have a mother who is the type to be watching films like this, so I probably saw them peripherally before I ever watched them. But I think, okay, say I'm nine years old. It's like late 80s. I'm nine years old, and I see Sunset Boulevard. I see All About Eve. To me, I don't have the historical knowledge yet, and so I think everything that I see is a period piece. And to realize as you get older, these are not period pieces. Both of these films take place in 1949, and then you're like, oh my god, in 1949. Look at 1949 commenting on 1928. That creates a level of sophistication that you have to get through that's like, I don't know, it's like this idea that we are a better society than we were before, and therefore we can comment on that old society by saying, look how far we've come. And then once that exists, within moments, that thing itself is outdated.

[13:01] Ryan O'Connor: Okay, so the musical Sunset Boulevard, as we've been discussing, is based on the Academy Award winning film by Billy Wilder from 1950. Is that right?

[13:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It was released in 1950, yeah.

[13:14] Ryan O'Connor: And it concerns Norma Desmond, who used to be big. She was a star of the silent film era. Then of course, once talkies happened and she started growing older, she became what? Unrelevant, which I think is probably the worst thing you can be in Hollywood.

[13:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, exactly. So then she holes up in her mansion on Sunset Boulevard, and the plot is about what happens because of that. Now, I can be somewhat of a critic when it comes to turning films into stage musicals, especially ones concerning the world of cinema. It's like, why on earth would you bring something that is so obviously?

[14:28] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah, the film has this incredibly dynamic score, and for its time, one of the most present scores of a lot of films. And I do feel like Andrew Lloyd Webber crafted something that echoes it, that you're watching the show and you're almost like, is he using the score? It fits so well. And then by adding in all of the operetta stuff, it being sung almost entirely sung through in a lot of places, you kind of go, oh, it's unapologetically musical. It's the difference between SUNSET BOULEVARD as an adaptation of SUNSET BOULEVARD and then APPLAUSE, an adaptation of ALL ABOUT EVE, which has some great numbers, is great in theory, but doesn't quite work. It feels like a mockingness almost, as opposed to a genuine – and SUNSET BOULEVARD is, to a fault, genuine, reverent. Yes, 100% reverent. That's the word.

[15:30] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, and you're right. I both appreciate it, and it's almost like they may have taken it too seriously, at least at the beginning stages in the first London production.

[15:40] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah, and that's that thing, too, of you wonder if Andrew Lloyd Webber – it's weird because Andrew Lloyd Webber has created some of the campiest musicals of all time.

[15:50] Jeff Parsons: Hello, cats. You're so right. I didn't even think about this.

[15:54] Ryan O'Connor: And yet, I don't ever get the impression that Andrew Lloyd Webber has any desire to make camp.

[15:59] Jeff Parsons: No.

[16:00] Ryan O'Connor: No, you're so right. And yet, he's like, I know what I'll do. I'll have Joseph's brother sing a country-western song.

[16:09] Jeff Parsons: Exactly, exactly. And I do think that that's where, when you get into SUNSET BOULEVARD, the idea of an aging actress emerging from a staircase, written through the scope of a straight British musical theatre composer at the end of the 80s, in a time of great opulence in his own career and life, it's like, where's the camp going to latch onto like a barnacle at the bottom of a ship? Because you can't create camp, and yet, everything is there.

[16:44] Ryan O'Connor: And yet, oddly, my biggest complaint about SUNSET BOULEVARD in the end is that it almost isn't campy enough. And this is being nitpicky about a musical that I really do love. I really do think it's really wonderful.

[16:58] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, I love it, too. I love this musical, and every time I see it, I'm a little bored.

[17:02] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah, it's sort of, it just, every time I consume it again, in whatever form, if I listen to it or I watch it or whatever, each time I notice another missed opportunity.

[17:11] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, I get that. Now, after Hal Prince and Andrew Lloyd Webber worked on EVITA in the late 70s, Hal Prince wanted to work on something else, and so he pitched Andrew Lloyd Webber the idea of turning SUNSET BOULEVARD into a musical. And the direction that he wanted to go in was to take it out of the silent film into the talkie era, and instead, redo it so that it was more about a Doris Day-type actor. Doris Day, you know, America's sweetheart, huge, huge film star, and then at some point, she just decided she wanted nothing more to do with it, and really just kind of kept to herself and her animals.

[17:52] Ryan O'Connor: The project gets shelved, really, until after PHANTOM OF THE OPERA, when Andrew Lloyd Webber remembers this pitch that Hal Prince had given him, and he goes forward with the project, but instead of partnering with Hal, he partners with Trevor Nunn, who, of course, had done LES MIS and CATS, and he gets to write the lyrics. Don Black, who had done SONG AND DANCE, he did the lyrics for UNEXPECTED SONG, which is a very famous Andrew Lloyd Webber song, and they also get Christopher Hampton to co-write the lyrics and book Christopher Hampton, known probably best for the play and film LE LIAISON DANGEREUX. I think I'm saying that right.

[18:34] Jeff Parsons: For those who grew up in the 90s, you know it as CRUEL INTENTIONS.

[18:38] Ryan O'Connor: Exactly. And it is worth noting, I don't always try to be this guy because it's not helpful, but it is worth noting that everyone you just mentioned on this creative team is a straight, white man.

[18:52] Jeff Parsons: Oh, for sure. Also, a straight, white, British man, everyone. Is Trevor Nunn straight?

[18:59] Ryan O'Connor: I think he is. I'm pretty sure. That doesn't matter. I don't know. I don't know his life.

[19:04] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, exactly. But the point is that you do have a recipe for a bunch of heterosexual commentary that at this point in 1989, Norma Desmond is embraced as a gay icon. You feel it when you're consuming this version of SUNSET BLVD that does not feel crafted with a gay eye. I'm not saying that it's a good thing or a bad thing, except that I do think it explains a lot of what I feel is missing. The first big thing that you have to unpack when unpacking SUNSET BLVD is, of course, the Patti LuPone-Glenn Close SUNSET BLVDs. You have these two things that came up at the same time, and with all the drama around it, basically two women are creating their own version of the same role at the same time. So it comes down to, was there a conversation happening with that creative team that was like, we all know we can't create camp, we need to just do what we're doing?

Did they try to create camp by casting Patti and then go back on it because they felt it blew up on their face and that's why they went with Glenn? I mean, this is just an opinion based on what I've read. Because at this point, I've gone through both Andrew Lloyd Webber's autobiography as well as Patti LuPone's, which I know you love that book.

[20:29] Jeff Parsons: Patti LuPone's The Bible?

[20:35] Ryan O'Connor: Obsessed. I'm obsessed with that book.

[20:37] Jeff Parsons: Have you listened to it? Have you listened to her read the audiobook?

[20:40] Ryan O'Connor: The audiobook, which is the greatest performance ever given of all time.

[20:44] Jeff Parsons: I think it might be her best performance.

[20:46] Ryan O'Connor: It is. I own three copies of the actual book. I own three physical copies. And then I send the audiobook to basically anyone who I come in touch with who hasn't, because there was a time when the audiobook didn't exist. The audiobook came later. The book came out first, so I read the hard copy first. But the audiobook, she gives... I mean, it's a performance of a lifetime.

[21:09] Jeff Parsons: She doesn't read that audiobook. She performs that audiobook. And the Sunset Boulevard chapter...

[21:16] Ryan O'Connor: The two...

[21:17] Jeff Parsons: Oh, right.

[21:18] Ryan O'Connor: Sunset Boulevard part one and part two.

[21:20] Jeff Parsons: That's right. That's right. That's right. Part one and part two are...

[21:25] Ryan O'Connor: That's the 11 o'clock number of that book, is all of that.

[21:28] Jeff Parsons: Absolutely. So you go through Patty's book, and you get all of that. And then I heard that Andrew Lloyd Webber's book was coming out. I'm like, oh my gosh, I can't wait to see what his version of this whole story is. And his stops at Phantom. So you don't even get the whole Sunset Boulevard thing. And I mean, not to call him out, but I'm calling him out here. It goes right along with everything that she complained about, which is that nobody throughout all of the drama surrounding the casting of Sunset Boulevard was willing to take responsibility for what happened. Nobody was accountable. The director wasn't. The designers weren't. The producers were blaming other producers. Nobody was willing to take responsibility.

[22:08] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah. Let's get into it, though. Let's talk about this. So Andrew Lloyd Webber finishes writing the show. Whenever he finishes writing a show, he premieres it at his Sidmonton Festival, because he has this whole Downton Abbey type, I don't know, commune that he lives on.

[22:24] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[22:30] Ryan O'Connor: And there's an old chapel on the property that he has renovated into a theater. And so every year he has this music festival. And one year after Sunset Boulevard had been written, he decided to do like a reading of the show and debut it at the Sidmonton Festival. He handpicks Patti LuPone, who is, of course, starred as Eva Peron in Evita, to come to London and read the role of Norma. She didn't have to be off book, but it was a full performance. And at the end of it, everybody's raving about it. Everyone's raving about her. He goes up to her and says, name your price. You're Norma. And she's thrilled. So this is going to be an iconic thing for her. And her people immediately go into negotiations with Really Useful, which is his production company, to get all of the contractual stuff underway.

The minute that they start going into these negotiations, stories from the press keep popping up about how Meryl Streep is pissed that Patti LuPone is playing the role of Norma Desmond. But wait, wasn't Meryl Streep at the reading?

[23:36] Jeff Parsons: She was at the reading. And according to Patti, they had a wonderful conversation afterward.

[23:41] Ryan O'Connor: And Meryl gave her the thumbs up. It's one of Patti's favorite things to talk about in the book. She loves to talk about how she's friends with Meryl Streep. She loves how they're neighbors. It's one of her favorite things to talk about. Meryl's never mentioned it. But Patti talks about them being great friends all the time. On one of her albums, she mentions it. She's obsessed with people knowing she's friends with Meryl Streep. It's a very weird name-droppy thing she does. Meryl is like, Patti who? I love Patti LaBelle, is what Meryl Streep is often quoted saying.

[24:16] Jeff Parsons: So once again, Meryl seems to be totally fine with it. And yet all of these stories keep coming up about this drama. And Patti's like, where's this coming from? And then it turns out that she keeps hearing from her people that the negotiations are not going well. And the Really Useful group is saying things like, well, you know, she can be replaced. So they start putting it together that maybe Really Useful is putting out these stories to try and strengthen their side of the negotiation deals. And she's like, well, that's weird. Of course, no one has been accountable for that. But that's kind of what she was getting because no matter who she talked to, she didn't know where all of these rumors were coming from.

They finally decide on the contract. And very specifically in her contract, it says that she will be debuting the role of Norma Desmond in London, and then will be taking it to Broadway. That's very specifically in her contract. She's getting ready to show you. She's got it scanned, ready to show you at any time. She keeps it in her purse. She's got the receipts at all. It's laminated on both sides. It's her phone. It's her iPhone cover now. She just has it as her iPhone.

[25:34] Jeff Parsons: Oh my gosh, Patti LuPone, please have an iPhone cover. That's your contract from Sunset Boulevard.

[25:39] Ryan O'Connor: So, by the way, like, I want to say that what happened to Patti LuPone is atrocious. And she says to this day that it is the worst experience she's ever had in the theater. So we're making light of it. But truly, she was really taken advantage of. So she packs for London, right, because now they're going into full rehearsals. She sends all of her trunks to London right before she leaves to go to the airport. She hears that Barbara Streisand has recorded her two big songs in Sunset Boulevard with one look, and as if we never say goodbye, that they're on her new album and which cannot be cannot be overstated. Anyone listening to this already knows this, I'm sure, but it cannot be overstated how much the entire show is built around these two numbers, like the entire show, almost every other number echoes at least one of these numbers.

These two numbers are the centerpieces of the entire show. Yeah, huge. Even though she's meant to debut this role, everyone will have heard Barbara Streisand singing it months before she ever steps on stage.

[26:58] Jeff Parsons: Right. Sung in the voice of a woman who most people find perfect for this kind of material to even just say, we think these numbers are so good. Barbara Streisand is recording them. Just that statement in the 90s. Are you kidding me?

[27:11] Ryan O'Connor: No, no, you're exactly right. And I think that Patti LuPone felt like, well, if you want her to be debuting this music, you should have got her to do the show. Right. And I totally get that, which in hindsight is exactly what should have happened. But that's a whole other podcast. That's a whole other story. They go back into negotiations and they iron out a few more things before she goes to London. Now she goes to London and she's starting to rehearse the show. From what I understand, they more than anything did not want to create the Carol Burnett show. Right. Right. Because at this point, the character of Norman Desmond had turned into a parody of.

[29:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome back to A Musical Theatre Podcast. Today, we’re diving into the world of SUNSET BOULEVARD with my guest, Ryan O'Connor.

[30:24] Ryan O'Connor: Thanks for having me, Jeff! I’m excited to talk about this iconic musical.

[30:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: SUNSET BOULEVARD is such a fascinating piece. The music, the story, and of course, the character of Norma Desmond.

[31:24] Ryan O'Connor: Absolutely! Norma is such a complex character. The question of who should play her is always a hot topic among fans.

[31:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right? It’s like a rite of passage for musical theatre performers.

[31:44] Ryan O'Connor: And the stakes are so high! The role demands so much from the actor, both vocally and emotionally.

[31:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It really does. Plus, the history of the role is filled with incredible performances.

[32:04] Ryan O'Connor: Yes! From Glenn Close to Patti LuPone, each actress brings something unique to the character.

[32:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And the music is just stunning. Andrew Lloyd Webber really outdid himself.

[32:24] Ryan O'Connor: The score is haunting and beautiful. It perfectly captures Norma's desperation and longing.

[32:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Speaking of longing, the themes in SUNSET BOULEVARD resonate with so many people.

[32:44] Ryan O'Connor: Definitely. It’s about fame, aging, and the harsh realities of life in the spotlight.

[33:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And the relationship between Norma and Joe is so compelling.

[33:14] Ryan O'Connor: It’s a classic tale of manipulation and desire. Joe’s journey is just as tragic as Norma’s.

[33:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: For sure. The way their stories intertwine is masterfully done.

[33:34] Ryan O'Connor: And the setting of old Hollywood adds another layer of intrigue.

[33:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It really does! The nostalgia and the darkness of that era are palpable throughout the show.

[33:54] Ryan O'Connor: Plus, the visual elements, like the iconic set design, really enhance the storytelling.

[34:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely! The floor lamp has become a symbol of the show itself.

[34:14] Ryan O'Connor: Right? It’s almost like a character in its own right!

[34:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It’s amazing how such a simple object can carry so much weight in the narrative.

[34:34] Ryan O'Connor: It’s a testament to the creativity of the production team.

[34:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Speaking of creativity, the choreography in SUNSET BOULEVARD is also noteworthy.

[34:54] Ryan O'Connor: Yes! It complements the music beautifully and adds to the emotional depth of the story.

[35:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love how every element of the production works together to create a cohesive experience.

[35:14] Ryan O'Connor: Exactly! It’s a true collaboration of talent.

[35:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it’s interesting to see how different productions interpret the material.

[35:34] Ryan O'Connor: Each director brings their own vision, which can lead to some really unique interpretations.

[35:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It keeps the show fresh and relevant, even after all these years.

[35:54] Ryan O'Connor: Definitely! SUNSET BOULEVARD has a timeless quality that resonates with audiences.

[36:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And the discussions around casting Norma Desmond will likely continue for years to come.

[36:14] Ryan O'Connor: For sure! It’s a role that every leading lady dreams of tackling.

[36:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it’s a role that can redefine a performer’s career.

[36:34] Ryan O'Connor: Absolutely! It’s a chance to showcase incredible talent and depth.

[36:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I can’t wait to see who takes on the role next!

[36:54] Ryan O'Connor: Me too! It’s always exciting to see new interpretations of such an iconic character.

[37:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, Ryan, thank you so much for joining me today to discuss SUNSET BOULEVARD.

[37:14] Ryan O'Connor: Thank you for having me, Jeff! It’s been a pleasure.

[37:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And to our listeners, make sure to follow Ryan on Instagram for more insights into his work.

[37:34] Ryan O'Connor: Yes! You can find me at @ryanoconnor81.

[37:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And don’t forget to follow "A Musical Theatre Podcast" wherever you listen.

[37:54] Ryan O'Connor: And check out our social media for more great content!

[38:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thanks for being part of this wonderful podcasting community.

[38:14] Ryan O'Connor: Until next time, keep celebrating the magic of musical theatre!

[38:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bye for now!

[41:51] Ryan O'Connor: Even Bonnie and Clyde. It was a bad idea. None of it- I still feel like I daily pay the price for the life of Faye Dunaway. It's not fair. She said- I take it very personally. But then again, it's probably the best thing that ever happened to me. Because- Do you remember that- Oh, go ahead.

[42:07] Jeff Parsons: Are you gonna talk about the press conference? Why was it the best thing that ever happened to you? Are you gonna talk about the press conference she gave on her lawn?

[42:12] Ryan O'Connor: I'm sorry, what? So when she got fired- So Faye Dunaway- Spoiler alert. Okay, so she goes into rehearsals and they promptly fire her because they say she can't sing. And she's like, uh, you hired me with this voice.

[42:24] Jeff Parsons: Right. At this point, the press knows that they get a lot of- they get a lot of traction out of covering Norma Desmond casting. So they- it was like entertainment tonight. It was like major, major news, this Faye Dunaway being fired. So Faye Dunaway, the day after she's fired, holds a press conference in her front yard.

[42:39] Ryan O'Connor: This is bonkers. She sits on the lawn for the press conference. She sits like she's having a picnic. And gives this speech where she says, um, many, many, many things. But she said- one of the things she says is, I auditioned for Mr. Lloyd Webber. In my range, I performed. In my range, he knew my range when he hired me. And firing me is- I'm paraphrasing, but you get it. And firing me is, one of my favorite quotes of all time, a capricious act by a capricious man.

[43:20] Jeff Parsons: Oh my gosh!

[43:22] Ryan O'Connor: It's so good. It's so- it's so Norma Desmond. I mean, it's like the finale of Sunset. It's so Norma Desmond. That is what's so crazy about this, though, is that, you know, you talk about the original film being so meta that you can't really tell what's real Hollywood and what's not. This whole experience, like, takes that to a whole other level.

[43:39] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[43:42] Ryan O'Connor: Patti LuPone got Norma Desmond while playing Norma Desmond.

[43:48] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I wrote a short play that has never seen the light of day, but it all takes place the day that Faye Dunaway is fired in a lair underneath the Majestic Theater where Sarah Brightman lives. You only get admitted to this special lair underneath the Majestic, which is where Phantom of the Opera is, if you have played Norma Desmond, Grizabella, Christine, or Eva Peron. And so it's a convention of these women saying, what do we do? We have a problem in our ranks, and it's this Faye Dunaway situation.

[44:22] Ryan O'Connor: Look, here's the thing. I've never been a huge fan of fringe festivals. However, I really want it to come back just so you can produce this.

[44:31] Jeff Parsons: You're right. You're right. Maybe it's a solo show. Maybe that's the way to do it. I don't know. But I do think the, like, are you kidding me of it all?

[44:43] Ryan O'Connor: No, seriously. It's one of the craziest things in theater history, which is, I think, one of the reasons why I was so excited to cover this show. Because talking about it, you actually get enjoyment out of talking about it. And I know that sounds trite and horrible, but it's the fact. Speaking of, did you know that Gloria Swanson tried to create a musical of Sunset Boulevard?

[45:02] Jeff Parsons: I've heard that, but I've never, I don't know anything about it.

[45:08] Ryan O'Connor: At some point, she had her partner started writing songs, and they created a musical version of Sunset Boulevard. I can't believe I didn't bring this up, that she was going to direct. And she even performed a song of it on one of those variety shows. Which one was it? Steve Allen or something like that. And of course, it doesn't go anywhere, because Hollywood is allergic to female directors. But like, talk about meta. Norma Desmond is trying to create a musical about Norma Desmond that won't get produced because she's no longer relevant.

[45:39] Jeff Parsons: Okay, we've been talking so long, but I'm having a great time. The musical opens in 1994 in New York. Sunset Boulevard is one of two, count them, two new musicals that season.

[45:55] Ryan O'Connor: Oh, that's right. It's crazy. So when the Tony Awards nominations are announced, there are two musicals up for Best New Musical. One is Sunset Boulevard, the other is Smokey Joe's Cafe, which is a review of songs, which means that Sunset Boulevard has no competition for Best Book or Score.

[46:16] Jeff Parsons: How did that happen? Why did that happen? It's crazy. And it really does mark the end of this, quote unquote, British wave of musicals.

[46:26] Ryan O'Connor: Right. Because Sunset Boulevard is incredibly expensive. It has this enormous, ornate set that is just absolutely gorgeous, but it's too expensive to run. And the year after, Sunset Boulevard wins the Tony for Best New Musical in all of its opulence and drama. The next year, it's Rent.

[46:48] Jeff Parsons: Right.

[46:48] Ryan O'Connor: The end of these huge, overblown productions is kind of marked by Sunset Boulevard. Then what survives later is sort of this combination. You could almost argue that a combination of Sunset Boulevard and Smokey Joe's is what sort of comes in to create the jukebox, which is the only thing that can compete with the contemporary musical.

[47:08] Jeff Parsons: Right. That's a very fair and valid point. So Sunset Boulevard wins all of the Tony Awards that it basically has no competition for and loses to the ones that Show Boat takes. The big Hal Prince revival of Show Boat was also that season and very lauded and adored. But Sunset Boulevard is a quote unquote hit. It runs for almost three years, but it is one of the biggest financial flops in musical theater history.

[47:32] Ryan O'Connor: Right. This show is what coined the term a hit flop.

[47:40] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[47:40] Ryan O'Connor: Meaning that it ran for three years. Everybody knows it. It made a huge cultural footprint and yet lost so much money, probably in many cases because of all of the lawsuits that it received from women they fired.

[47:54] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. I'd like to think that in addition to Patti LuPone's phone case, that's her Sunset contract. She has a pool raft that is just a printing of all the Sunset grosses and all the losses. She just lounges in her swimming pool that she calls her Andrew Lloyd Webber Memorial swimming pool, I think, or whatever she calls it. She names it after him because she bought it with her Sunset money.

[48:17] Ryan O'Connor: That's hilarious. Oh my gosh, I love her. That's fantastic.

[48:22] Jeff Parsons: All right. That's all of the drama. Oh, except that then Glenn Close does the 2017 revival, which is very pared down, very skeletal. It really focuses on the Andrew Lloyd Webber orchestrations, which I think are like, no, there's not a composer out there in the theater who knows an orchestra better than Andrew Lloyd Webber. The orchestrations for Sunset Boulevard are glorious. They had this 40-piece orchestra on stage, and they get Glenn to come and reprise her role. When she agrees to do it, she has a couple of demands, one of which is that they need to use the monkey that they had in the-

[49:03] Ryan O'Connor: Oh, the monkey, like the prop of the monkey?

[49:03] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, like the monkey prop, which is important. She had this really deep connection to it, so she wanted it. The producers are stressed out trying to find the monkey. Where is this original monkey? Then she hits reply all. There's just one sentence, and it's, I have the monkey.

[49:30] Ryan O'Connor: Oh my God, that's so good. It's like the gayest ransom note of all time.

[49:36] Jeff Parsons: And so they used her monkey. She apparently had had it, so there you go. There's a fun little quote from the 2017 revival. All right, let's talk through the show. It starts out with a score that really evokes a film noir type feeling. That orchestra starts playing, and I immediately see the world in black and white.

[49:57] Ryan O'Connor: Yes, yes, totally. I completely agree. After this little overture, it gives way to a prologue, and we meet our protagonist, Joe Gillis, who's kind of an antihero. He's a screenwriter in Hollywood, and he is narrating the story, telling us that a murder has been reported at one of those crazy mansions up on Sunset, and that everybody, all of the media is going to be covering this, but if you want the real story, you came to the right spot. Then he takes us back six weeks, we start seeing what happened leading up to this murder.

[50:38] Jeff Parsons: Way to go, Andrew Lloyd Webber, for writing what I think is probably the best song about Hollywood in a musical, which is Let's Have Lunch.

[50:44] Ryan O'Connor: I love Let's Have Lunch.

[50:44] Jeff Parsons: Right? It's this montage of Joe Gillis walking through one of the big movie studios, talking to everybody, talking to actors, talking to other writers, producers, his agent. The through line is this, hey, miss you, buddy, let's have lunch. It's a great, great number. Also, kind of is the beginning of the problems with this show, which is that you have two musicals. You have the musical happening at Norma's house, and then you have the musical happening outside of Norma's house, and they don't quite go together. Maybe that's the point, but I think there is a way to make it a little more cohesive. I don't know. What do you think?

[51:24] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah, I agree. It has that snappy City of Angels feel. It's that maybe a little cheesy.

[51:34] Jeff Parsons: By cheese, do you mean show busy?

[51:36] Ryan O'Connor: Show busy, just very broad. When you get into the Norma scenes, the audience doesn't feel necessarily taken care of. They don't know what they're supposed to latch onto. Are they supposed to latch onto the camp, or are they supposed to ignore the camp and take it very earnestly? And those songs, the studio staff, as much as I love them, they don't really set up any clear guideline. The tone isn't cohesive.

[52:01] Jeff Parsons: Interesting. So while he's there, he talks to his agent. He's trying to get one of his scripts made into a movie. He goes to Sheldrake, who's this producer, asks him to look at a script that he did called Bases Loaded. Sheldrake calls his secretary, Betty, to pull any copy that she may have written on the script. And she says, actually, boss, I remember that one. It's just not something that's very good. And he says, oh, well, turn around. That's the writer that you just said that in front of. And this is the meet-cute between these two people. Joe, who can't get a movie made, and Betty, who's an aspiring writer and wants to create films of substance, and recognizes the talent in Joe and wants him to get back to the reason why he became a writer in the first place.

That is their connection that has started in this moment. She feels bad for calling him out in such a brash way and tries to make it up to him because two, I don't want to call them bounty hunters, but two guys who he owes a lot of money shows up to the set.

[53:10] Ryan O'Connor: Oh, yeah. He's got some sort of debt collector-y guys.

[53:15] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. Debt collector. Thank you. That's the right word. Bounty hunter. That was not the right picture. Although they are very aggressive. I mean, my debt collectors just call a lot. But they show up to his place of business and are like, we know you don't have any money, so we need to take your car. She helps him escape. This turns into a car chase in which he's driving down Sunset Boulevard and they're trying to follow him and track him down. He pulls into one of the mansions there along the boulevard and hides in an open garage. Then he gets out of the car just in time for someone to say, you there, why are you so late? He gets brought into this big mansion and sees Norma Desmond, who is this opulent but somewhat decrepit woman, crying over the dead body of a monkey.

This is our first moment to meet Norma, is that she has lost her best friend who happens to be a monkey. It seems that in this huge house, in this huge art deco house, the only things living there are her, her butler, and this monkey who has passed away. She thinks that Joe Gillis is an undertaker, is someone who's going to help her bury the monkey. This gives way to Norma's first song, which is called Surrender, and I think it's gorgeous.

[54:46] Ryan O'Connor: So beautiful. As you get older, you appreciate different things. And this song, I definitely was skipping this song when I was a teenager.

[54:53] Jeff Parsons: I was not. I was like, okay, small, small, small. I now like, if Surrender's on and then I catch eyes with my dog, it's over. It is over. We're crying for the rest of the day. It's done. It's done. Because it paints the picture that she has nothing except for this grand house, Max, and this monkey. So if you only have three things, and one dies, that's a huge loss. That's a huge, huge loss.

[55:30] Ryan O'Connor: Oh, it's haunting. And it really is a beautiful song. It paints Norma in a fragile way. You can tell she's, I think that that is probably the word I would use to describe her most, is fragile. And I think that all of the great screen artists have an element of fragility. And that may be an unfair generalization, but the

[55:48] Ryan O'Connor: If you're going to be acting with a camera that close to you, your emotions are almost always on the surface.

[55:55] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, you know, it's funny when you say that what I start thinking of is Renee Zellweger.

[56:01] Ryan O'Connor: I think of Renee Zellweger in Judy, which I didn't feel like she was doing a great portrayal of Judy Garland. Although what I was watching her do was very, very captivating and very vulnerable and very honest. And you have that, that's that fragility. It's that, that like you're watching someone like give a performance from the wreckage of their own, their own. From the inside out, regardless of, you know, whether it's a powerful performance or a scary performance. If you're working from the inside out, there's something incredibly vulnerable about that. And that has consequences and be praised for it and have fame for it, I think has some serious consequences. And you see that in Norma and then you see what's happened to her, which is, you know, she's been forgotten because of the talky pictures.

And so that's just escalated this. So now Joe is like, hey, I'm so sorry about your friend, but you've got the wrong person, which has to be triggering for her. And then he recognizes who she is and says, hey, you used to be Norma Desmond. You used to be big. And she says, I am big. It's the pictures that got small. These lines. It's perfect. They're perfect. They're so perfect. And it's such a great line leading into a song, which is her first big moment called With One Look. Her first great song, as you very smartly called it. And it's so beautiful. With One Look is such a good song. It's like he made such a choice. This could have been I am big. It's the pictures that got small. Clear the decks, clear the tracks.

It could have been everything's coming up roses, you know, like it could have been. If he did that, everyone go, OK, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense. Yeah. Big number. This is her big number. Her ballads in act two. This is her big I want song or whatever. And said he says, no, let's turn it on its head and be really vulnerable. And I'm going to tell you the secret of what I do as an actress. I'm going to tell you how much I believe in myself, no matter what you have to say. I'm going to stand in my vulnerability and tell you what I am best at in the world, which is with one look, I can break your heart. And it's like, oh, that is that that ability to take that choice, that structural choice. I can't applaud him enough.

[58:28] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, it's very inspired, inspired. She tries to kick him out. Wait, I won't stop you a thousand times, but I do want to say one thing. Yeah, no, no, no. At the end of with one look, she then her first line of dialogue after then with one look is now go now go, which is a perfect example of where the audience doesn't know where the tone is. I have no confirmation of this, but everything about it seems like something that was built on Patti LuPone. That now go is a Patti LuPone transition out of a number. She knows she nailed it. Now go. I don't think Glenn Close would organically create that moment. I think she feels that moment because she's given it.

[59:10] Ryan O'Connor: Well, that's that's a moment that feels like camp. That's that there's an argument for that. She shifts out of her vulnerability and it's a defense mechanism. Of course, all that stuff is totally valid. Of course, it works. But it's but it is that tone shift that's like it's jarring. You've built up this vulnerability for me, for Norma. And now I'm confused again about how I'm supposed to feel about her. I'm confused about where to put my interest. Do I put my interest in watching a creature who's weird or do I put my interest in caring about a human being who is struggling? It's very difficult.

[59:44] Jeff Parsons: What can it be both, though?

[59:45] Ryan O'Connor: Because I think so. I do. It makes her unpredictable. And that certainly has a payoff. But still, I see what you're saying. Yes, I do. Now, when Joe introduced himself and said that he wasn't the funeral guy, he said, you know, he's he's a writer. So Norma realizes that if she keeps him around, she can have him work on this film that she's creating, which will be her big return to the film industry. And it is a script about the character Salome. Now, Salome is from the New Testament. She's basically the woman who is responsible for the beheading of John the Baptist. Yeah. Yes. Because of her dance of the seven veils or whatever, right? Yes, yes, yes. So she's very alluring, very beautiful. And now Norma Desmond thinks that she's the perfect person to play this.

Joe, being an opportunist, realizes that, you know, the script is probably crap, that it's never going to happen. But he's broke. He has debt collectors who are trying to, you know, take everything from him. So why not?

[1:00:51] Jeff Parsons: One hundred percent. I relate to Joe here. I relate to Joe's sort of like non-threatening opportunism here. Like, I understand that feeling of like, this woman's going to be this crazy. Anyways, if she's asking me to stay, I might as well stay. It's interesting because it's this turn. She's getting something out of it.

[1:01:07] Ryan O'Connor: Absolutely. He's an opportunist, but he's not he's not a bad guy. He's just a he's just a little lazy and a little entitled and, you know, an opportunist. That's cool. What I don't think he realizes, though, is that he's going to become a slave.

[1:01:23] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. In many ways. Right. He has to live there and he becomes the new monkey in many ways. Her confidant. So the butler, Max, takes him to his room to stay. And Max reveals that he is not just a butler. He used to be married to Norma.

[1:01:40] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah. And was her director, was the director of all of her best pictures. And now he's kind of been reduced to this butler role because he cares enough about her that he wants to take care of her. Yeah. That that fragility, probably that he captured so much on camera makes him want to take care of her. Yeah. He writes her fan letters every day and pretends to be other people so that she still thinks she has this fan following. From there, the next thing that we see is Joe's first work session with Betty.

[1:02:19] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. So this is where I wish I feel like there's a missed opportunity because Max, I think Max and Norma's relationship is so interesting. And there's so much there about like what he did for her and what she knows he did for her. And yet the agreement is we're going to play our parts, which is that you're lucky to be here. And I'm a star. And we all live in the orbit of which only one of us can be the center focus. And years and years ago, we chose that it's me. And then there's Betty and Joe, who chose self-confidence is completely in the gutter. He's got no money. Nobody wants anything he has to do. So he's pitching these lousy screenplays just to make a buck. And Betty says, you're better than this.

I believe in you. You could be so much more if you would only believe in yourself the way I believe in you. I mean, that's a that's a quartet right there. Dueling, dueling duets right there. It would be so the mirror would be so wonderful to establish and not to spoon feed it, but like, no, no. But it would also it would also create a bridge between these two worlds.

[1:03:29] Ryan O'Connor: Yes, exactly. Yes. To show that the same things are happening in these two separate worlds makes it feel like it's a little more synchronistic.

[1:03:34] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But we don't have that. Yeah, Betty and Joe. We don't have that, though. We have Betty and Joe, and we don't really care about their romance. It feels like a very, very much side plot. She's she's engaged to his good friend. There's it's a very that's true. Which is not that's not that's not on the show's problem. That's a plot from the movie. It's not. Yeah, it's just a weird like. I think it makes Joe's character incredibly complicated. Like I said, he becomes kind of an antihero because he's mooching off of one woman and possibly stealing the lover of his best friend. Right. Norma continues her craziness every night. She makes him like get dressed up and they go and watch one of her films. This is another when you were saying like you always skipped Surrender New Ways to Dream is a song that I completely avoided. And now I really love that song as well.

[1:04:24] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah, it's good. It's really good. It's beautiful. And it's a great it's a great musicalization of the film. That moment, I think. Yes. Agreed. OK, so now it's New Year's and Betty wants Joe to go to this New Year's party with all the kids and all the artists and everything. And Norma wants Joe to stay with her for their New Year's soiree. And Joe's like, I want to go hang out with my friends. You can't keep me here. I'm not your monkey. I'm going. So he leaves. But then when he's at the party with all of his friends, he receives a phone call from Max saying that Norma has slit her wrists.

[1:05:04] Jeff Parsons: It really is, I think, the moment that Joe can't keep ignoring all of the warning signs when you're around somebody this eccentric. You can kind of play it off as, oh, that's just that person. But now she has taken manipulation to a whole new level by trying to kill herself. And now what do you do?

[1:05:21] Ryan O'Connor: What he does is he runs back to her. Right. And apologizes and ends up making out with her.

[1:05:27] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. Which is just kind of disgusting. And it's this amazing stage picture where she has her wrists like bound with these bandages and he's kissing her and she's like raising her arms with her like spider fingers. It's so creepy and amazing and kind of Nosferatu in a way.

[1:05:47] Ryan O'Connor: It is Nosferatu. I've never gone to those extremes, of course, but I think, oh, how many Joe Gillis's have made out with me because they were afraid of me out Norma and myself. How many how many times have I been in that? And really, like those Joe Gillis's should have just gone home. They really should have just gone home.

[1:06:10] Jeff Parsons: That's amazing. That's your Sunset Boulevard chapter in your book.

[1:06:15] Ryan O'Connor: Kind of. It's a very different the whole other musical. All right. Act two begins with Joe singing the title song Sunset Boulevard while trying to figure out whether what he's doing is right or good or has a future, which we all know the answer is no. He's also doing it in the tiniest bathing suit you've ever seen.

[1:06:35] Jeff Parsons: Oh, this bathing suit.

[1:06:37] Ryan O'Connor: I forgot he shows up in this this thirst trap of a bathing suit. Why? It's like it's actually a really interesting song with a lot of emotional undercurrents. And you can't pay attention to anything because he's in this tiny bathing suit.

[1:06:53] Jeff Parsons: Absolutely. Which and it's that like. Late 20s, early 30s, leading man, tenor body, which is always that like, even though everything about it should be sexy, it almost isn't always no matter what, like it's just like, but it's distracting. And where's the mic pack?

[1:07:12] Ryan O'Connor: Distracting is the right word. Thank you. Because then he takes off the bathing suit. Do you remember that? That he takes off.

[1:07:17] Jeff Parsons: Oh, I have forgotten.

[1:07:20] Ryan O'Connor: I've forgotten this. And to prepare for this, I watched some clips from 2017 and I'd forgotten in the number he puts on his robe and then he takes off the bathing suit. So he gives the very like the illusion of that he's naked, which, of course, like he's in some sort of brief with his mic pack, of course. But like, yeah, because he didn't. Right. But like, again, you imagine this straight white male team being like, well, we should probably give the gays something here. We should probably. Excuse me, Christopher. I was thinking perhaps perhaps Joe could just be in a tiny little bathing suit because I don't know if I'm giving the gays everything they want in every scene with Norma, so perhaps they will be happier if I give them just this itty bitty bathing suit. That's my Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[1:08:10] Jeff Parsons: Do you think that was a great Andrew?

[1:08:13] Ryan O'Connor: There is something really interesting to me about him being a kept person, like a kept boy. Yeah, right. Sure. And he looks like and he looks all perfect. And he's sitting at a pool, which is, you know, the epitome of living the Hollywood dream. And yet there's this undercurrent of knowing that it's wrong and not feeling content with it.

[1:08:33] Jeff Parsons: I totally get that. I just wish it was maybe done in a different way.

[1:08:37] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah, it just feels a little baby.

[1:08:39] Jeff Parsons: Great. Now that we've talked about the bathing suit for 20 minutes. Next up, Norma receives a phone call from the studio saying that Cecil B. DeMille wants to see her.

[1:08:47] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah. And she's like, this is it. They've received my script that we've been working on. This is going to be the big return. And what it actually is, however, is they're doing a movie that needs a car like a vintage car that she owns, that they saw Max drive on the lot when he dropped off the script.

[1:09:12] Jeff Parsons: Thank you. Yes, exactly. And so they want to use the car. So she thinks that she's going because they, you know, they've missed her and they're ready to do this project. But that is not the case at all. They go to set, however, and the moment of her returning is the moment that she has been dreaming of. And it gives us a huge wish fulfillment because we see her live the glory of that in as if we never said goodbye, which I think is five times the number that Don't Cry For Me Argentina is.

[1:09:45] Ryan O'Connor: Don't Cry for Me, Argentina is like the staging that's always been done. And it wasn't until recently that I realized that what they watch is Norma say nothing, live in that moment in captivated silence, take it all in, probably make eye contact with every single person in the room, bring them in. And with one look, she breaks all of their hearts. She does exactly what she promised you she would do in the first act. We experience it through a song that's written in first person. And it leads into that beautiful musical moment right after that, with Cecil B. DeMille, which is actually one of my favorite parts of the whole score. When he realizes, it's almost you see Cecil B. DeMille realize what we all now know.

You know, we all say it all the time. And I had a whole podcast about it about that we dispose of these women once they hit a certain age. It's almost like this is the moment where Cecil goes, Oh, God, what do I do? What am I going to do? What have we done to you and the hundreds of other ones? And what am I going to do about it? And you see, it's too overwhelming. And he just goes back to work. With young actresses, there's always also always a young actress right in that in like a belly dancer costume. It's just that whole moment is really quite stunning, because it's so many things are happening that are musicalized. And you got to give them all credit for that for that structure and that creation.

It's really, really stunning. And it's Glenn's best, as if we never said goodbye, is Glenn's best Norma moment, I think. For sure. She did that on the Tony Awards. And if you haven't already seen it, go see it because it's probably one of the best Tony Award performances ever. Yeah, it's really it's perfection. Okay. Now, after this, everything starts kind of escalating a little bit more. Norma is convinced that Cecil B. DeMille is going to call for her at some other point. And so in the meantime, she's going to get gorgeous and talk to astrologers and make sure and see when the best time will be to be filming. That's one of the best featured ensemble tracks of all time, that astrologer and the therapist, but the astrologer especially because she has that cape.

What is that line? I can't even remember. It's all visual to me. But she sings that line and she's like the eccentric and you also are like, oh, you're also like the third cover for Norma. So you're ready to go on at any moment. That's amazing. We also see the relationship between Betty and Joe click up a few notches.

[1:12:58] Ryan O'Connor: Oh, yeah, that's why we have that song. They're working on their script and then they sing the song called Too Much and Love to Care, which is, I think, probably one of the most boring songs of the whole score. The most memorable thing to me about Too Much and Love to Care is that I remember in that big old booklet in my CD case, I'd be following along with the lyrics because the whole libretto is printed in there. And at the end of the song in the libretto, it said in the stage directions, It is obvious that they are about to make love. Is it? I mean, I guess they just sang the song. I don't know. I just thought that that was so specific. It's obvious that they're about to make love. Well, there's a playable stage direction, kids.

Up for interpretation. Yeah. Betty and Joe are in love. And you know what? They're too much in love to care. They're too much in love. Even if Alice Ripley is playing Betty Schrafer, not necessary. Thank you. I mean, we had some pretty impressive Betty Schrafer's between Judy Kuhn and Alice Ripley. Yeah, my goodness. This all leads to the final scene in which Norma discovers about Betty and feels absolutely betrayed. And it's this it's a huge confrontation in which Betty comes to the mansion and Joe, in order to protect her, basically breaks up with her and says he wants nothing to do with her. He breaks her heart so that she will leave because he's afraid of for her safety. Betty leaves. He has this whole confrontation with Norma.

[1:14:30] Ryan O'Connor: Oh, Norma says when she thanks him, she thanks him for breaking up with Betty. It's so it's so pitiful. Yeah, it's pathetic. Yeah, it's just so she knows he loves this other woman, but he's breaking up with her to be with her. And she thinks she accepts it, accepts it as like a gift. He just brought her flowers. Oh, it's so upsetting. And he says, you know what? No, I don't choose you. I'm leaving. Right. And he goes to leave and she grabs a gun and shoots him and he falls into the pool, which means that the murder that we heard about at the very beginning of the show is actually his own. Yeah. And I will never forget. It's one of my favorite deaths in all of film history. When William Holden gets shot because he's walking, he like packs his suitcase and he's walking out and Norma Desmond comes out and shoots him and it hits him.

But he like keeps walking. He like gets hit and then keeps walking. And then she shoots him again. And then he falls into the pool and just floats there. Oh, it's so good. Oh, my God. I wish that the listeners could have just seen how well you just recreated William Holden's death. That was such a good William Holden dies in Sunset Boulevard death recreation. That was really...

[1:15:49] Ryan O'Connor: If I can maybe do it in your Fringe show, I would be really excited.

[1:15:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it'll just be a passing through.

[1:15:54] Ryan O'Connor: Exactly. And so now Norma has killed her new monkey, basically. And so she's completely cracked. I mean, she's not Norma anymore. I think it's safe to say she has reached to the place of complete mental breakdown. And the police show up and there are reporters because obviously it's murder involving someone famous. And Hedda Hopper is there at the scene, which I love. As if Hedda Hopper was like an at the scene reporter. I love that part.

[1:16:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that is funny.

[1:16:27] Ryan O'Connor: And Norma's just like getting ready and she's like not there anymore. And they're trying to figure out how they're going to get her out of the house. And Max, who has been with her all this time, realizes that the only way to do it is to feed into the crazy. That they need to convince her that it is time to shoot this film for her big return. And that by luring her to the cameras or to her public or to her dream, that they can get her to the police station.

[1:17:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So it's devastating.

[1:17:01] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah. He starts painting the picture of the people already and she walks out and there are all these reporters and the police officers. And she thinks in her now completely fantasy mind that these are the people on set. And she is filming a movie and she's Salome.

[1:17:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, she's Salome.

[1:17:18] Ryan O'Connor: And she's walking to her close up. But truly, the close up is her is her end. Yeah, it's it's the end of Norma Desmond. And you get the sense in the film and in the show, you get the sense that it really is the end. You get the sense that there's no more Norma. Like you said, Norma's gone and there's no more.

[1:17:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There's no more Norma.

[1:17:38] Ryan O'Connor: Despite all of the drama and all the camp, it is a. It's a very sad story about a kind of creature that we constantly create in our society, which is someone that we build up to then watch fall down.

[1:17:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[1:17:55] Ryan O'Connor: And my heart does go out to all the Norma's out there or just any of the artists who struggle with confusing their own self-worth with their artistic value. And it's a really tricky line to toe, for sure.

[1:18:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It is. I know it is in my life.

[1:18:11] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah, because to do the business of show business requires more and more sacrifice of self in a lot of ways. And it's that balance of taking care, you know, self-care and and being open to that vulnerability. And and, you know, I've seen many people who I get jealous of their success. And many times you go at what cost to things that person might be willing to pay a price that I'm not willing to pay, that I know nothing about. And also something in the universe, whether you, you know, whatever your faith is or you're what you believe in a higher power as somebody, something saying you don't want this. The thing the thing that you think you're going to get from this, you're actually going to get from not having this.

And that, you know, rejection is God's protection. And that you look at Norma has so much she has. Clearly, she has enough wealth to sustain herself. You sort of go, if only Max had spent all that time writing those fan letters and maybe like helping both of them work on acceptance and and, you know, the lesson there is wanting more is probably going to get you more, but you may not actually want more.

[1:19:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, no, I know. You're absolutely right. It's like the foundation of scarcity, right?

[1:19:36] Ryan O'Connor: Yes. That the opposite of more is not less. The opposite of more is enough.

[1:19:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, do you know any of those people?

[1:19:43] Ryan O'Connor: I do. I certainly do. I know some of those people who have had what I deem success beyond all measure. And yet I can see that they don't live in the appreciation of that. They live in the lack of what they have now or the or the perception that it was supposed to be something else. Or I'm grateful for examples like that in my life because it helps me remember that no matter what we get in life each day, we just have that day and we have what's in that day. And if we aren't training ourselves to be grateful for what we do have, you can create a monster in yourself. There's a theater person who I know who has a very successful career and has originated a lot of roles on Broadway. And when trying to express the congratulations for all of that success, what was given was, well, I don't know what I have to do to get a Tony Award nomination.

And when I heard that, I was like, oh, okay, that's interesting. And then they got nominated for a Tony Award. And then they won a Tony Award. And when I saw them win that Tony Award, I thought, well, I hope you're happy. But you probably aren't.

[1:21:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yep. Probably aren't.

[1:21:01] Ryan O'Connor: Because that feeling doesn't get solved by more stuff.

[1:21:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No. No, definitely not.

[1:21:07] Ryan O'Connor: Ever.

[1:21:08] Ryan O'Connor: You know, I'm a recovering alcoholic. So I've been sober for four and a half years. And that's that same thing. You chase something. We talk in AA about the God-sized hole in yourself that you fill with anything. It can be booze, food. Fame is a huge one. Fame and praise and accolades, there should be a 12-step program just for that.

[1:21:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Congratulations, by the way.

[1:21:35] Ryan O'Connor: Oh, thank you. Thanks. Yeah. I mean, it's in everybody's best interest, really.

[1:21:43] Ryan O'Connor: Otherwise, I'm a real Norma. I mean, imagine, I'm such a Norma four and a half years sober. Imagine an un-sober version of my Norma Desmond. That's not pretty. That's not pretty. But watch out. I have a zoo full of monkeys. And probably a cage full of Joe Gillises, to be honest. Just check the basement.

[1:22:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you so much, Ryan, for doing this.

[1:22:06] Ryan O'Connor: Oh, my God. Thank you for having me. I've had the best time. And thank you for... I love that you pick musicals for people, and it made me feel very seen that you asked me to do this one. It made me feel very understood.

[1:22:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm so grateful. As always, if you have suggestions for musicals that we cover here on A Musical Theatre Podcast, you can email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Also, be sure to follow us on Twitter and Instagram at amusicalpodcast for more great content. Like I said earlier, we have a Tee Public store with original designs that capitalize on some of our favorite moments in episodes past and present. I'm pretty sure there's going to be one from this episode. So check that out.

[1:22:47] Ryan O'Connor: And Ryan, how do we follow you and all the things that you're up to? Because you've got your hands in many pots around town.

[1:22:55] Ryan O'Connor: Yeah. I mean, the best place is Instagram. I'm Ryan O'Connor, 81. 81 the year I was born. And O'Connor like Sinead, Sandra Day, Donald, Carol, all the O'Connors. O-R. O-C-O-N-N-O-R.

[1:23:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You've got some good company there.

[1:23:15] Ryan O'Connor: I do. I do.

[1:23:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you, everybody, for listening, and be nice to your floor lamps.

[1:23:23] Ryan O'Connor: Absolutely.