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[0:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey, everybody. It's Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. I hope you're ready for this episode because it's so much fun. Many of you may know that I live on Maui, and some of you have reached out to make sure that I'm okay. I am okay and safe. It's been really, really rough here. I'm not totally ready to talk about it, but I do mention a little bit about it in this episode, and so I just wanted to say that when I do mention about things getting rough here, I'm talking about the fires. Just know that I'm safe. I'm helping the best ways I can, and because there's still so much that we don't know, I have waited to give any fundraising or charitable donation recommendations. I will do that in the future because it's going to be a long road, folks.

But I appreciate you all, and please enjoy this episode. Welcome, everybody, to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are covering the musical Sweet Charity, which was a listener request from Chris with a K, among others. Here to talk about it, this woman. You guys, there are people who just get it and aren't too loud about it. Those are my favorite guests on a musical theater podcast, and today, we got one of them. She's a singer, dancer, actor. She learned the Fosse technique from The Incredible Anne Rankin. She made her Broadway debut in Fosse and was one of the insane ensemble featured in Dancin' last season.

She was also in the revival of Sweet Charity, which means she's officially done three Broadway shows featuring the song Big Spender, which I think has to be some sort of record out there. Anyway, everyone, please welcome the amazing Dylis Croman.

[2:08] Dylis Croman: Yay! Hi, Jeff.

[2:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hi. Holy cow, I'm so happy you're here. But you got to know, this isn't the first time you've been on my podcast, and I haven't told you about this yet. So, I'm going to play a little clip for you from our Chicago episode, and our guest was Corey Wright, who was on tour with you. In this part of the episode, we were talking about the Roxy monologue, and how so many incredible people have done it. And then that's when he talked about you. One of my favorite, favorite versions is from Dylis Croman. She started off in the ensemble, and then she ended up being Roxy. And the way that ... I mean, her body is amazing. The first thing I ever said to her, which now looking back, I'm like, Corey, you're just pushing it, was I said, I want to put butter and hot sauce on your legs and just eat it up.

And she was like, oh, okay. And she's like, HR? At that time, I wasn't in the show. I just walked up to her. And I never thought that I would be watching her on stage and dancing with her. And then that ended up happening. And she was actually one of the dreams come true for me. So, it was great. But she does a great version of this monologue. How cool is that?

[3:30] Dylis Croman: Oh, my God. That makes my heart so happy. First of all, I love him dearly, Corey. I love him dearly. And second of all, I remember that moment when he said, I want to put butter and hot sauce on your legs. And I think, I don't know, but I think my response was, go ahead and slather it on, take a bite. I mean, theater people. Why not? Boundaries.

[3:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There's no boundaries.

[3:52] Dylis Croman: Well, okay. So, the crazy thing is that a week after you closed Dancing last season, you were back in Chicago, right? It was like an insane turnaround.

[4:02] Dylis Croman: Yes, it was insane. It was like two weeks later, I think it was two weeks later, I went in to play Roxy in Chicago right after Dancing closed, which was such an emotional roller coaster, to be honest with you, but in the best way. Yeah, because Dancing closing was a major loss. It was a major loss. All of us felt very, we'd worked very hard as we all do when we're putting up a show, but the stint of time had been about two years or maybe a little shy of two years putting Dancing up and we got to perform it in San Diego and then we got to our Broadway opening. And then by the time we got there, we were like, we made it. Here we are, we made it. Let's enjoy the ride.

[4:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, enjoy the ride. And for that to get cut short and it was heartbreaking. I mean, I'm just being very honest. It was just like the most heart-wrenching news to get, especially as a dancer. And for me being a dancer in my, and I just celebrated a birthday, but I'm in my mid-40s, I won't give you the number, but I'm in my mid-40s, what, what? And the fact that I got to do another dance-centric heavy show like that was major for me.

[5:25] Dylis Croman: Huge.

[5:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah. I don't know, but it feels like that happened more with Cheetah and Gwen like back in the day and Anne, but not so much now that people get to continue dancing as long. And so that's, what a gift.

[5:42] Dylis Croman: It is such a gift. And you're right, those legendary women that you just mentioned, they're forces. And Cheetah Rivera is 90 years old, and I'm going to say her age because she just celebrated it and shouted it to the rooftop, which she should.

[5:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[5:59] Dylis Croman: So everybody knows her age. She is a force. I mean, I just saw, oh gosh, I'm forgetting the name of the article or the name of the magazine, but her leg was just like, extended out, pointed all the way through the arch, all the way through the toes, just looking so good. And I'm like, that's what I want to be when I grow up. That's what I want to be. So I have great inspiration from these legends of legendary women that I learned from along the way.

[6:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And how do you feel? Do you feel strong?

[6:35] Dylis Croman: I do. I feel strong. I mean, dancing was a test for sure, but I can't imagine.

[6:41] Dylis Croman: I do yoga. That's something for me that keeps my body strong. I do Bikram, I do Vinyasa, and I do it in a hot room. So I like a hot room. So that really just keeps my body in check. But yeah, dancing gave me a ride of my life. And yeah, I was proud of myself. I was proud of myself for doing another show that intense, eight shows a week. And my cast, everybody, we really were in it together. We were in that show together with every heartbeat, with every sweat drop dripping into our eyeballs.

[7:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In your eyes.

[7:22] Dylis Croman: Eyes are burning, just like hamstrings burning. Everything is burning, pretty much. My bunion was burning at one point. I'm just like, oh, good Lord. But the payoff was all worth it.

[7:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's beautiful. So with Chicago, with dancing, with Sweet Charity, you've kind of done all the big Fosse shows. So I want to go back in time and talk a little bit about the Sweet Charity revival that you're in. What was happening when the show came into your life? Was musical theater a big focus for you?

[7:56] Dylis Croman: Well, I mean, I went to performing arts high school in Dallas that I danced a lot, a lot of dancing. But I was in the dance department. But I started to dabble with singing a little bit in high school. I studied with this guy in Dallas, his name was Mark Carroll. And he is no longer with us, but he was the most inspirational guy and very much part of the interwoven thread of my voice. Because he really just helped me understand what I have in there, that instrument. And I've only worked with expressing through my body and my limbs and my heart. Everything comes from the soul and the heart. But when it came to actually dealing with my vocal cords, which he taught me that that's a muscle. Mark Carroll said, this is a muscle, and we have to train it just like you train your body.

So I shout out to him, rest in peace. And then when I moved to New York, well, actually, I should say, I started dancing with Elliot Feld for the first two years. And then when that transitioned for me to start doing musicals, I went to my first audition with Annie, choreographing a show called Applause, based on the movie All About Eve. And I went to the audition. And she was like, well, you're gonna have to prepare 16 bars or 32. I can't remember which it was. And I was like, Oh, okay, so I have to sing. I'm really nervous. Which is it's like jumping off a cliff when you're not used to it, you know, it really is. So I went in and I sang and my voice is like a little, it's like a little mouse.

I just was so nervous. I couldn't get it out. But I made it past that cut. Thank God, because Annie had my back, I think I think she really helped me. And then she said, Okay, you have a callback, but you're gonna have to go work on that song. So got it. I hear you with both of my ears. So I went back to my vocal coach, I think I was seeing at that time, Adrian Angel, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, back then. And she helped me just like find my core and my strength and my diaphragm. And just like, so I just kept rehearsing. And I remember going to some of my friends and be like, can I sing this in front of you, which is the scariest thing to do. Oh my gosh, terrible. Horrible. It is terrifying. It's terrifying.

So I did that a couple times. And I was like, Okay, I can't take any more of those nerves. My nerves are shot out with that. But when I walked out, walked into the callback, I was able to give a much better audition, you know, not the way I can sing now. But back then, which was, I think I was 19. So you know, that was my first time singing an audition. But yeah.

[11:00] Dylis Croman: And so like first singing audition, you've already met Anne Ranking.

[11:00] Dylis Croman: Yeah, well, I met Anne Ranking when I was 14. And I met her. I didn't know that. Yeah. And I met her at a musical theater project in Tampa, Florida, it was a summer program. And it was three weeks intensive, you had to audition to get into it. And I got picked and I went and I met her when I was 14. So it was right the summer between my freshman and sophomore year. And yeah, she that was the first time I was introduced to the Fosse style.

[11:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Going then into Fosse choreography, because you kind of learned it from the best place one could. What do you like about it? Does it feel good in the body? What's your connection to it there?

[11:44] Dylis Croman: Yeah, it does feel good in my body. It feels good. I don't I can't speak for other people. But for me, I when I started to learn it, when I was that eight, you know, 14, young age, I just I had already, you know, I had been training in ballet and modern. And I and also did tap and jazz. I did I did all the styles, thanks to my mom. Yay, mom. She did a good job because she really put me in all kinds of classes flamenco, like all kinds of things. And I really felt, yeah, I felt well rounded by the time I got to Anne. Yeah, fluent in movement. And so I so when I got to Florida, and I met her and I met the style, I met the Bob Fosse style. I was like, wow, wait, I mean, it was one of those moments.

And I and I've said this many times before, but it really is true. When I, and it might have helped that maybe Anne Ranking was the person demonstrating. I was like, wow, what is that? And I why have not we Why haven't I seen this before? And I just it was like, I had like blinders on at that point, I just everything became very focused and narrowed in. And I and, and all I can say is, I just said, I want to do that. That's what I want to do. So what I love about the Fosse style, though, is that there's storytelling in it. There's storytelling throughout the whole thing. And it, you know, you have to have technique, you have to have style, you have to have wit, you have to have humor, you have to have satire, you have to have, you know, just an ability to really storytell without going to, you know, like, when people say, just tell the story.

I don't know if you've ever, you know, you know, it's like, you know, when you're going on stage, and you're doing a show eight times a week, and it's like, Oh, I don't know how else to say this anymore. I don't know how else to go, you know, to tell the story. You just literally, you just those three words, tell the story, you know, whatever, whatever way you're doing it. So for me, that the Fosse quality of movement is really it hones in on, you can't, you know, it's not meant to go too big, or too showy, or too flashy. He's got dynamics levels. And it's all about dynamics. For me, that's what I try to teach when I teach the younger generation of dancers, I try to teach dynamics. And I try to teach musicality. Because I think that's also what makes him special, Bob Fosse special, is that he came from the music underbelly of it all. I mean, he almost was an orchestrator.

[14:39] Jeff Parsons: Exactly like the reason this the song sounds the way that it does is because of the movement and vice versa, right?

[14:45] Dylis Croman: Absolutely, you understand it. Yes.

[14:57] Jeff Parsons: So my view of Fosse's work, and I got to be honest, it's more from a spectator side than a performer side, but I've always loved the specificity. I've loved the attention to detail. There's a sexiness, of course, that is confident, but not necessarily vulgar. The way stillness is as important as the movement, like all of that stuff, the repetition. I've learned so much from him about like watching the repetition and it kind of hypnotizes the audience and brings them in, and then you mess with it. And anyway, I love all of that stuff. This past year though, watching a lot of the work that you guys were doing in dancing and now we're visiting Sweet Charity, I want to know your opinion on this.

I've kind of noticed how impressionistic he was in the, like maybe he wasn't interested in creating art that literally represented life. He wanted to paint what it felt like instead. And so the storytelling is like he's got a canvas and he's painting with it, and the tools that he used to paint were dancers.

[16:02] Dylis Croman: Yes, those are like the brushes. That's what he loved, and it doesn't take a lot of research to realize how much he loved dancers.

[16:15] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, right. Definitely. Absolutely. But yeah, I love what you said though about Bob Fosse using his dancers as paintbrushes because I do believe that what you're picking up on is quite on point, really truly, because Annie would talk about that and Reinking would talk about the fact that he used his dancers to help inspire him. And every step would look different on each dancer, and he celebrated that instead of saying, you know, instead of wanting it to be exactly the same. And that's very different than like the corps de ballet where you're having to be exactly, you know, you really want to make a beautiful picture, and that's a beautiful thing too, but of course the Fosse style really allowed freedom to be yourself within the movement.

And you know, and I remember talking about this too, like if you didn't like it, he'd tell you. He'd be like, "That's not it. That ain't it, kid." And you would try something else, and that might not be it either, but you keep trying and trying until you found what he was looking for. But he would always know what he was looking for, and he would celebrate that.

[17:29] Dylis Croman: Now, you know, I'm speaking from six degrees of separation here, but I mean I did learn from Ann very, very closely, but I wish I could have worked with him. It would have been a dream just to experience what his process was, and but I've learned a lot from the people that have, so I'm grateful for just having that firsthand knowledge or that secondhand knowledge of how it was like in the room. And he was a complex dude for sure, like it also doesn't take much research to realize that he kind of hated himself a little bit and was always working through that. And I mean just watch the movie All That Jazz. It's him creating a movie about his own death before it even happened. So like there's a lot going on there, but I'm just really impressed by how this viewpoint on the art form really pivots the entire art form into a new territory.

And certainly by the time Sweet Charity had come around, he had choreographed Pajama Game, Damn Yankees, How to Succeed in Business, Little Me, all of these shows that had his little styles and vocabularies, but Sweet Charity really was the moment when he stepped into what I was saying, this impressionistic way of exploring storytelling because he's now director and choreographer, and it's almost like the plot isn't as important as exploring through dance and his dancers a lot of interesting themes and characters.

[19:07] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, it's a very vulnerable piece, I think.

[19:11] Dylis Croman: Whoo! Yes. Yeah, talk about that because I'm sure you know.

[19:17] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, well, I know as much as I think I know, but there was, yeah, there's a vulnerability to the whole show, like just Charity for example. I mean, this is a very desperate character, I would say. Desperate is definitely in there, and she's just trying to make her way through life with the tools that she has been given. You know, that's how I see her, and but she picks herself up and she continues to move forward with positivity as much as she can.

[19:40] Dylis Croman: Yeah, and that's why I think that it's hard to say desperate because her resilience is so high, you know?

[19:47] Jeff Parsons: Major.

[19:48] Dylis Croman: Yeah, and so you can't help but just be like, "I think you're the bravest individual I have ever..."

[19:55] Jeff Parsons: Exactly.

[19:56] Dylis Croman: Yeah, and I related to her in that way because I, you know, as we all have, have been through things in life that, you know, the trials and tribulations of each person's life are very individual, but mine, you know, I have mine. I have my life, and I have my backstory to pull from. And by the time I got to cover her, because I was an understudy first, well, I mean I was always an understudy, but I did get to step in pretty dramatically at one point when we were on our out-of-town tryouts. But yeah, I related to her because I had already in my lifetime before doing that show had been through a lot, so I was able to tap into her resilience, you know, because I had lived it in my own life.

[20:45] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[20:46] Dylis Croman: But there is a desperation to her too, and I think it's just that desperation to want to be loved, you know? Everybody wants to be loved, and she really just wanted to be truly, in the most simplistic, purest way, she wanted to be loved. It's a show that can be like the entire plot of Sweet Charity can be boiled down to that, which is it's a girl who wants to be loved truly. Like that is the show, you know?

[21:12] Jeff Parsons: So the beginnings of the musical started when Bob Fosse and his wife Gwen Verdon went to see an Italian film by Fellini, the famous Italian director, and it was a film called Nights of Cabiria.

[21:31] Dylis Croman: Put it so good. Is it? I haven't seen it.

[21:37] Jeff Parsons: Oh my god, Dylis!

[21:39] Dylis Croman: Okay, so I just watched it. So I hadn't seen it when I did the show. Okay, but my significant other, my beau, Robert Montano, I'm just gonna drop that pin there too. He, he's a fantastic actor, singer, actor, dancer, toast of the town right now, playing in his show Small that he wrote and performs in off-Broadway. I'm so proud of him. But anyway, this movie that you're talking about, Nights of Cabiria, he said to me, he was like, "Have you ever seen where Sweet Charity, you know, originated from?" He told me the name of the movie, I was like, "No." Oh my god! So we watched it like the next night, and I'm telling you, it was unbelievable. I cannot come up with the actors' names right now because also they're hard to pronounce, and I'm not gonna butcher them.

But the girl that plays the Charity role, I mean, I just fell in love with her. I was like, "Oh my god, if only I had seen this back then so I could pull from her brilliance." I mean, absolute brilliance. So yeah, you gotta watch it.

[22:54] Jeff Parsons: That's so cool. I have to check it out now. Musical theater nerds, you may remember that the musical Nine is also inspired by a Fellini film. So thank you, Mr. Fellini, for all of the Broadway. But Fosse sees this movie and like you completely loves it, and it's I think it's pretty easy to see why. He and Fellini had so much in common. They both loved women; their wives were their muses. I believe the woman who plays the lead character is, Fellini was fleeing his wife at the time, right?

[23:22] Dylis Croman: Absolutely.

[23:23] Jeff Parsons: Yep, so the story of Nights of Cabiria is the story of a prostitute in Italy. She just kind of gets the crap end of the stick at every turn in her life, but then she, you know, perseveres on, and it makes it strangely inspirational even though it's tragic in many ways and just reveals the human spirit. So Bob Fosse and Gwen Verdon go to see it. Now I'm going to read a quote from Gwen about that evening.

[23:44] Dylis Croman: Oh!

[23:49] Jeff Parsons: So she said, "One night we had nothing to do, so we went to see that Fellini film, Nights of Cabiria. Well, I just hated it, so depressing. But Bob, he's the movie buff in the family, just loved it. He couldn't sleep, so he woke me up at 6 a.m. with a nine-page Americanization of it, and he got me all stirred up. We changed her from a prostitute to a dance hall hostess because in New York, the whores are either elegant with posh lives, then nobody would have any sympathy, or they're bums, then nobody would care."

[24:31] Dylis Croman: Isn't that interesting?

[24:33] Jeff Parsons: Whoa? Wait, read, okay, read those last two lines.

[24:34] Dylis Croman: Yeah.

[24:34] Jeff Parsons: So they changed the character from a prostitute to a dance hall hostess because in New York, the whores are either elegant with posh lives, which means that nobody would have any sympathy, or they're bums, which means nobody would care. And Fosse said something similar. He said, "There is something ugly about a prostitute in this country, in the United States. It's alright in Italy, so I wanted to get the nearest thing to a prostitute, a promiscuous girl who sold something for money, a dance, her understanding, conversation, something."

[25:11] Dylis Croman: Oh my god, Jeff, where did you find this? That's incredible.

[25:16] Jeff Parsons: I love this book. It's called Razzle Dazzle: The Life and Work of Bob Fosse.

[25:21] Dylis Croman: Oh my gosh, I'm gonna have to just from that.

[25:24] Jeff Parsons: That's a great one.

[25:24] Dylis Croman: That's a great one.

[25:25] Jeff Parsons: But I just thought that was so interesting because when you stop and think about why that change was made into a taxi dancer, which even the taxi dancer had back in the day definitely had, but also the elegance of it, fact or the respect of some sort. And so if we, if they wanted Charity to be received in the way that you've been so beautifully saying, which is that she's this, you know, person who wants to be loved and vulnerable, how do you portray that for an American audience? I just find that really fascinating.

[26:02] Dylis Croman: That is absolutely fascinating, and I love what you just read because that really puts everything out on the table because it really is that. It's like we judge so much, you know, there's so much around us, and I, you know, I live in New York City, so I walk around the streets, and of course, it's just so much around you that you could find yourself judging or not relating to or, you know, not wanting to have time for or yada yada yada. But yeah, the fact that he decided to, Bob Fosse decided to make her a dance hall hostess, 10 cents for a dance kind of, losey gal.

[26:41] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, that's a better word, gal.

[26:45] Dylis Croman: Then, you know, it's more palpable, it's more digestible, we can understand. And the thing about it is to me, when I look at that, it's like we're all trying to, it doesn't matter what your profession is, we're all just trying to make a living, and we're all trying to survive, and it's a survival thing. And you know, Charity was a survivor. I mean, Beyoncé would be very proud of Miss Valentine.

[27:09] Jeff Parsons: Without Charity, oh Valentine, she wouldn't have a couple of music videos either.

[27:24] Dylis Croman: Alright.

[27:25] Jeff Parsons: So Bob Fosse jumps in and starts writing the script because he wanted to be the one to write the script, and he had worked with Cy Coleman on Little Me, which was a great episode we covered earlier in the pod and recommend listeners to go listen to it if they haven't. So Cy Coleman comes on as composer, who, I mean, he's one of the last great Broadway composers whose songs ended up in the Great American Songbook, like people wanted to record his songs when a new Broadway show came out, and Sweet Charity was no exception.

[27:56] Dylis Croman: Yeah, it was no exception.

[27:57] Jeff Parsons: Exactly. Cy had written Little Me with the great lyricist Carolyn Lee. Carolyn Lee, I always forget how to say her last name. I'm gonna say Lee. And they didn't get along at all, and so he needed somebody new to write this score with. He approaches the great Dorothy Fields at a party and asks her to write with him, and she's thrilled because at this point, if people don't remember, Dorothy Fields was the book writer for Annie Get Your Gun in the 1930s. So this is like mid-1960s, over like 30 years later, and she's like, "I'm this old woman, and you want me to write?"

[28:39] Dylis Croman: Absolutely.

[28:40] Jeff Parsons: And so when I remember that when I realized the lyrics of Sweet Charity were written by an older woman, it makes me love the score even more because she understands that he has that wisdom.

[28:53] Dylis Croman: Absolutely.

[28:54] Jeff Parsons: Been through all of that.

[28:55] Dylis Croman: Yeah.

[28:56] Jeff Parsons: Oh, I didn't know that detail.

[28:57] Dylis Croman: That's, yeah, I absolutely love that.

[29:00] Jeff Parsons: If I ever play this role again, I'm gonna pull all of this.

[29:07] Dylis Croman: You should play this again!

[29:10] Jeff Parsons: So unfortunately, the script that Fosse created just wasn't...

[29:16] Dylis Croman: Funny enough, it just wasn't entertaining because he got better at that when his films came along, but he needed some help. So Neil Simon steps in to basically make the book funnier. And he does that. I really enjoy the scenes in this musical. I know that it may not be the most seamless book in all of musical theatre history, but there are so many terrific, terrific scenes. And we'll talk about a few later on. But like that elevator scene might be one of the best scenes in any musical ever. With Oscar losing. Yes. Oh my god. It's so fantastic. That scene is fantastic. And Dennis O'Hara played it with me. I mean, I got to go on with him, but Christina Applegate and Dennis O'Hara were matched up for those two roles.

And actually watching the two of them, Christina Applegate and Dennis O'Hara play that elevator scene. Yes, absolutely. Both comic geniuses for sure. And watching that was just such a lesson. It's a masterclass. It was a masterclass. That's beautiful. So SWEET CHARITY premieres, the original production premieres on Broadway in 1966. It reopened the huge Palace Theatre, which hadn't been much for a very long time. So it was a big deal when it opened. And it opened in the same season as Man of La Mancha and Mame. So like juggernauts across the season. And this leads me to one of my favorite conversations about this Broadway season, because it's different as all of those lead characters are in those three shows.

They all feel very counterculture 1960s to me. Like Mame Dennis is this uber liberal, elite woman, raising a child with members of a nudist colony. And Don Quixote is all about the impossible dream, no matter how crazy people think you are. And then Charity Hope Valentine is maybe the most out of all of them, surrounded by change and chaos everywhere she goes. And she's just trying to find her way, which really feels to me like the voice of this new generation in the 60s that is like, why is everybody being assassinated? I just want to be happy. What is happening? Why Vietnam? Why anything? Anyway, so I think she's more simplistic than that. She's as simple as they come. It's the reason why I feel like Charity is a character that younger generations could really get behind.

This is an old show. And of course, that means that there are some things that you might disagree with or you feel are dated. But for the younger listeners out there, this character is somebody I think you could really connect with, with all of the chaos that we've been experiencing in the world. And everybody feeling completely untethered by not being able to go to school. You had your first two years of college over Zoom. All of this craziness that I can't even imagine. You got a character like Charity Hope Valentine that's like, yep, it sucks, but we're going to keep trying. I think it could be like a she-ro for this new generation.

[32:35] Dylis Croman: Yeah, definitely she-ro for sure. I definitely think it could be. And I think it's, I don't know for sure, but I think it's coming back.

[32:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Really?

[32:48] Dylis Croman: I don't know. That's what I've heard.

[32:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow, I trust you. I don't know any more than that, but that's all I've heard. But it would be, I do think with some updates, I think it could be like what you're saying, just like a she-ro kind of character for these. Because I think, I think that's what we're learning. She's not perfect, like you said. She doesn't understand self-care at all.

[33:08] Dylis Croman: No, no. And she, but she just like, the lesson to be learned is what you had mentioned earlier, was just that, her perseverance. I love that mythical bird, the phoenix rising.

[33:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course, yeah.

[33:21] Dylis Croman: She has that quality to her, where she can just literally get knocked down. I mean, the first scene, she's thrown into a lake. She just, she's like ogling Charlie's eyes, like she's so in love with this guy. And then he tosses her into the lake and steals her purse. And it's like, well, then that's the first scene, that's the setup.

[33:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's where we start.

[33:42] Dylis Croman: That's where we start. And where does this character go from there? And she does, she always finds a way to persevere. And that is a lesson that we all could learn from this.

[33:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Amen. Well, speaking of the beginning of the show, we see Charity, she's awaiting her latest man, who's named Charlie, right? And she immediately starts dancing. So this role is exhausting, because from beginning to end, we are with her every step of the way. Really rarely leave stage, right?

[34:16] Dylis Croman: Yeah, yes. Absolutely.

[34:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So tell me about going on, because this revival that you were in, and did Wayne direct and choreograph it?

[34:24] Dylis Croman: Yes.

[34:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay.

[34:25] Dylis Croman: No, sorry. Sorry. No, no, no. Correction. He choreographed it.

[34:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He choreographed? Okay.

[34:30] Dylis Croman: Yeah. Walter Bobby directed it.

[34:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, Walter Bobby, of course.

[34:33] Dylis Croman: Yes.

[34:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You guys were there. I mean, there were so many twists and turns with this revival. But you're out of town. Christina Applegate is, of course, leading the show, name above the title sort of thing. And then she goes down, right? And what happened exactly? I can't remember.

[34:50] Dylis Croman: So in the beginning of the show, there's a light post and Charity's character kind of like, twirls around the light post. And there's a little bit of a platform on the post. And from what I understood is she kind of just rolled over, which can happen to any of us, just kind of rolled over on her ankle. And she continued. I mean, she continued for another 10, 15 minutes into the show. And that was her adrenaline. Because she ended up tearing some metatarsals in her foot pretty bad. But we didn't know any of this at the time. It's just that happened, minutes, 10 minutes or whatever go by. And so I had never had a rehearsal for this role. At this point, yeah, not one. So we were in Chicago, Illinois at the time.

And so prior to doing our out of town performances, we were in New York rehearsing it. So what I had done to prepare for if something like this should happen, which, you know, it's very rare that it does. But when it does, you know, you just want to make sure you're prepared. And Charlotte D'Amboise, which she was the first cover for, for, for Roxy, for charity. She was the first cover, but she was doing Roxy in Chicago, in Chicago on Broadway at the time. So at the time that we were in Chicago on these out of town trials, I was the only cover in the building. And so basically, you know, I had done a lot of work on the side when we were in New York in rehearsals. And you know, six, you know, you rehearse from 10 to six, and around six o'clock, you know, you break for the day. And I had scheduled appointments with my vocal coach and my acting coach to work on the material, just in case something like this happened.

[36:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's incredible. So you're going like above and beyond after 6pm?

[36:45] Dylis Croman: Yeah, yeah. And I'm spending my own money on it. You know, like, I'm just, I just, I don't know if my instincts were, I mean, I don't, I didn't think anything of it.

[36:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Tapped into something higher?

[36:55] Dylis Croman: Yeah, I mean, maybe, you know, I was being protected somehow. I don't know. But I just, I did it because I wanted, because first of all, like you said prior to this, I mean, she doesn't leave the stage. So you know, I knew that was a lot of material, a lot of words, a lot of song, a lot of dance, all three very equally. The dance normally comes natural for me, and easier for me. But I said to myself, I have to know the script, like the back of my hand, I, you know, and I have to know these songs, and feel comfortable. So if anything should happen, you know, so I did. And we were in Chicago, it was like our second week of out of town tryouts. This happened to Christina's foot. And next thing I know, the curtains slowly coming down. And the blood slowly, you know, draining from my heart.

[38:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's like, Oh, God, what's happening? Because prior to this curtain coming down, I kind of saw out of my peripheral, we were in the middle of Frug. And I was like, bobbling my head. And I look out of my peripheral to the left, I saw Christina being swooped up, the curtain comes down. And so I had an idea that something had happened to her. So anyway, the our stage manager, Beverly Jenkins runs over to me after the curtain comes down and says, you know, listen, you don't have to do this. You're contractually you can say no, because you haven't had rehearsal with the company, at least, you know. And she said, But I have to ask you, do you think you could do this? Do you know, Christina's hurt? Do you think you could step in? And I just, without batting an eyelash, I just said, Yes, you know, but meanwhile, I had no blood in my body.

[39:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So, you know, that's where we kind of left off. So we picked up from there. And there was an announcement made that, you know, the role of charity Hope Valentine will be played by Di-Liz Croman. And I was just literally shaking in my boots. But somehow, somehow, I'll never forget sitting on that bench as the calls being made to track that, that piece out that set piece out. And I'm just, and I'm like, I got it, I got this, I can do this. So I did it. And I got through the whole show with, honestly, I can't remember, but I don't think I made any major mistakes. I had it. I had it. You know, all the work I had done prior to this on my own outside of rehearsal space, all the stuff that I had chosen to do, it was in there, it was ingrained in there, somehow, I was able to lean on it and trust it.

And I got through the whole thing. And honestly, felt pretty good about myself. Like, I, you know, wasn't, of course, I want to pick it apart. But for something happening so quickly, and so drastically, you know, I was very, very proud of myself.

[39:36] Dylis Croman: Okay. So like, I don't know. My mouth said yes, that's all I know.

[39:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. My mouth said yes, my body said absolutely not. But I went so my friend Tyler Haynes says, What do you need? I said, I need the script. Bring me the script. So I'm like, in the middle of taking one wig off, putting the charity wig on putting the charity red dress on taking off this chartreuse green, like eyeshadow that I wore for frug, you know, transforming into charity and the whole time, you know, going over lines with Tyler, and he was shooting me the lines and I was feeding him back. And, you know, I just told him the scenes that I needed to focus on that maybe I felt insecure with. And then next thing I know, I'm sitting on a bench and we're, we're being tracked into Pompeii.

[40:38] Dylis Croman: And so then the end of the story is actually the best part. So I'm really long winded when I say that tell the story, because it was actually probably the highlight of my career, one of the highlights, because I just was, couldn't believe it happened. But at the end of the show, we had a talkback where we were, audience could ask us questions. And at the end of the talkback, everybody kind of filtered out of the house. And I was just, my adrenaline was starting to come down. I was like, wow, I, you know, and they were, you know, the audience was in on it, because they saw the curtain down, they saw everything happen. So they were asking me questions about the night and all that. It was very, it's kind of a poignant way to end it. But the most poignant part of the ending was when this woman walked towards me down the house aisle. And she came up to me, she put her hand on she said, Hi, I'm Marianne. I'm Bob Fosse's sister.

[41:30] Dylis Croman: Yeah, yeah, Bob Fosse's sister was in the audience that night. She said, I just, I just want you to know, it's well, basically, I turned my all the adrenaline came crashing down and I just turned into a complete ugly cry. It was just a complete, complete ugly cry. And she said, my brother would have been so proud of you tonight.

[41:56] Dylis Croman: And yeah, I just absolutely lost it in front of her. And, and it was just one of those things you're like, is this really happening? Like, you can't write this like what in the world? And so I call I remember calling Annie and ranking that, you know, the next day. And I said, please, you know, I can't believe this just happened. I said, Does Bob Fosse have a sister named Marianne? And and said, she does. And she lives in Chicago. And that that's it. I mean, that was her. She was she that was where we were playing at the I think it was the Palace Theater. But yeah, that's, that's where we were. And that's where she that's where she came up to me and got to see me go into a full on ugly cry in front of her. But it was it was the most memorable evening in the theater for me to date. It really was. It really is.

[42:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so incredible. I don't know. It's like, I think because of everything that's going on on the island, and I'm not going to talk about too much here. Also, I'm, I'm really well known for crying on mic, just so you know. But like, when you when you get thrown into emergency situations, just hearing you talk about sitting on the bench, like I recognize that feeling over the past couple weeks in a different way. So like, I just love that it's also tied to art and, and why we do theater in so many instances, because, because that urgency, right, that urgency to tell the story to not let the audience down who's there to take care of each other as a family. It's all wrapped up in there. It's all wrapped up in that decision for you to just without thinking say yes. Because if you had anything else going through your

[43:54] Dylis Croman: You'd say no. It's insane. It's absolutely bonkers. But like, in certain circumstances, when it's about family and love, it's amazing what we do. And I think that's just so beautiful. Thank you. And that's it. That's exactly what you just said. It's like, we don't want to let each other down. And honestly, it's about everyone else. Because in theatre, that's your family, that's community. We want to make sure we do this show together. Because without all of us, whether it be the cast, the crew, stage management, you know, ushers in the house, lighting designers, set designers, sound designers, like every single person that puts this show up is in it for the same goal, which is to do the best job they can possibly do and to be proud of what they put on the stage so we can collectively and actively, you know, move people.

But so for that moment, it was, you know, I'm sure I didn't think of all that at the time. But in my head, I was thinking, you know, yeah, of course, just the word yes came out because I wanted to continue. But also, I didn't want to disappoint myself. That was the other thing, you know, disappointing yourself is just, it's heart wrenching.

[45:10] Jeff Parsons: No one wants regret, right?

[45:12] Dylis Croman: No one wants regret. Yeah, that's right. Ah, what a great story. I'm so glad you shared that. Thank you so much.

[45:19] Dylis Croman: Thank you. Going just quickly through some of the beats of the show that I want, I have to ask you about. Obviously, Charity gets thrown into the lake, bless her heart, but she's still sticking up for the guy, you know, she's going to work at the dance hall, assuming that he'll come by as he always had been for the past couple of weeks, right? Some of these lines are so funny as she's telling the police officer about getting thrown into the lake and saying things like, the thing is, is that he's very particular because his wife doesn't like him to come see me, you know, like stuff like that, that just gives us a little insight into what's actually going on, despite her, you know, toxic optimism. And so she goes into her dance hall, and we meet all of her girls. There's the amazing Nikki, who's such a great character. Helena? How do you say it?

[46:14] Dylis Croman: I think Helena.

[46:15] Jeff Parsons: Helena? Okay. They're kind of like her besties there. This is when Big Spender happens. We meet, you know, this place where she works with the most famous trumpet solo ever. Just a brilliant, brilliant number. As she leaves work, you know, kind of bummed that the bow didn't come back. She runs into this very good looking film star. What's his name? I forget.

[46:49] Dylis Croman: Vittorio.

[46:50] Jeff Parsons: Yes, of course. Vittorio, right?

[46:53] Dylis Croman: Vittorio.

[46:55] Jeff Parsons: And he's in a fight with his girlfriend, Ursula. Of course, I remember Ursula's name, but not Vittorio. What does that say about me? Anyway, but Vittorio invites her to go with him to this club because, you know, he's been in this fight with Ursula. So they go to the Pompeii Club, another great Neil Simon line when she says, wow, I'm the only person that I don't recognize here.

[47:23] Dylis Croman: That's fantastic.

[47:24] Jeff Parsons: That's how famous the people are who are going there. And this is what I really need to ask you about is the Frug, right? Rich Man's Frug, which is one of the most well-known Fosse dances. It's in three sections. Maybe one of the most memorable is the girl with the very long fall.

[47:42] Dylis Croman: Yes, lead Frug girl. Yes.

[47:45] Jeff Parsons: Did you get to do that one?

[47:47] Dylis Croman: Well, in the revival of, yeah, I covered the lead Frug girl and Corinne McFadden played the lead Frug girl in our version of Sweet Charity that Wayne Cilento choreographed in. She's such a badass bitch. I love her so much.

[48:04] Jeff Parsons: Oh, she's such a badass bitch. I absolutely love her. And to cover her was such a joy because she just has rocks. She just rocks on her hands. She's like, don't F with me. But she's got swagger and style and sassiness. And she just, yeah, she is a badass. You're right.

[48:28] Dylis Croman: So what is this number about? Can you kind of help us understand what he's saying through the movement and maybe how?

[48:35] Dylis Croman: Well, I mean, other than the fact, I guess, simply put, it's just like societal. It's like, you know, the cross, yeah, class and where do you fall in that and the judgments and the, you know, the looks and the cigarettes being blown in people's face. It's like, where do I belong in here? And we're all trying to be something that we're not.

[49:01] Jeff Parsons: Oh, interesting. So even they're maybe scared, it's coming out of like a place of fear that they're performing this.

[49:08] Dylis Croman: Right. But then, you know, the lead frugal is she owns her thing, you know, she owns it. And she doesn't have, she doesn't apologize for it. And that's what makes her so, you know, juicy and fun to watch because she just goes, she goes for broke and says, this is who I am, take it or leave it.

[49:29] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[49:29] Dylis Croman: Whereas everything around her, I think, is like morphed into this, you know, world of the passer buyers trying to see, well, where do I, you know, where do I fit in? Can I fit in?

[49:39] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, that's so cool.

[49:42] Dylis Croman: Yeah, that's how I see it. I don't know if that's what he created.

[49:45] Jeff Parsons: No, no, that makes sense. At the end, it kind of goes into that almost revivally.

[49:52] Dylis Croman: Yeah, the big finish. Yeah, the big finish.

[49:56] Jeff Parsons: I always thought that was so interesting.

[49:56] Dylis Croman: Oh, they're just all tooted at that point.

[49:58] Jeff Parsons: Oh, sure. Oh, yeah. See, I always forget about booze.

[50:04] Dylis Croman: They're all tooted at that point. They're just like, they've struggled long enough about their insecurities that they're just like, let me just toss a few back. And then by that point, they're all just crazy.

[50:13] Jeff Parsons: Brave as can be.

[50:14] Dylis Croman: Yeah, they're brave as can be at that point. False bravery.

[50:19] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, what a great number. So Charity goes back with Vittorio. They go to his apartment. Another great scene, Ursula comes back. And so then Charity goes and hides in the closet. And she ends up having to stay there the entire night because Ursula and Vittorio get back together. She's like trying to smoke a cigarette and blow the smoke into the purse so that they don't, they don't smell it. It's just it's great comedy and so endearing.

[50:48] Dylis Croman: She leaves the next day completely unfazed by the fact that he was kind of ready to say I love you in many ways. And then, and then all she leaves is with a top hat and a cane from him to prove that she got to...

[51:03] Jeff Parsons: To prove that she was even there, to prove to the girls in the in the dance hall that she was even there because they're not going to believe her unless she brings something back, you know, because that's not their, that's not the cloth they're made of.

[51:16] Dylis Croman: That's not the class.

[51:17] Jeff Parsons: That's not the class they're from. So yeah, that number to me, I guess if I was to say, like if I was to pick my favorite moment in Charity to perform and also just to watch really, because, you know, I've seen Anne Ranking, Debbie Allen, like different people portray this number. And it is literally the most brilliant piece of theater, I think, because, and it's also the hardest...

[51:43] Dylis Croman: We're talking about...

[51:44] Jeff Parsons: Oh, sorry.

[51:44] Dylis Croman: If my friends could see me now.

[51:46] Jeff Parsons: Which she does with the cane and the top hat.

[51:49] Dylis Croman: And the top hat, yeah. And there's hat tricks, there's all kinds of, that's one of the hardest numbers too, because there's props, there's, it's like, you have to take breaks in between the song to have, you know, to do the scene when Victoria comes back in. And you're, as a performer, you're having to go from like song and dance to scene work. And that switch back and forth multiple times is very, very taxing and exhausting. So it's a hard, it's one of the hardest numbers. It doesn't look like it would be, but it actually really is. Other than the Cassie dance, that is hard too.

[52:27] Jeff Parsons: That one's pretty rough.

[52:30] Dylis Croman: But if my friends could see me now is definitely challenging, but so rewarding at the end.

[52:37] Jeff Parsons: Oh my God, that number is so rewarding because you get to show off the dance part of yourself, the humor, the acting part, and just that song. I mean, you can't, that song is a classic song.

[52:49] Dylis Croman: It's a showstopper, right?

[52:50] Jeff Parsons: It's a showstopper. It really is, yeah.

[52:52] Dylis Croman: And it's one of those that I think that Fosse was so well equipped to do because of his background in vaudeville and burlesque, like all of that is being infused in there with those tricks and things like he knows how to, he knows what he's doing. He lived it.

[53:05] Jeff Parsons: He freaking lived it.

[53:07] Dylis Croman: He did. He absolutely lived it. He was pulling from real life stuff and made it so fun to watch. I mean, it might not have been fun for him to live, but it certainly was created in a way to enjoy.

[53:20] Jeff Parsons: Isn't that what we do? Turn our pain into something entertaining.

[53:26] Dylis Croman: Charity goes back to her girls and in this conversation of them not believing her that she spent the night at Vittorio's apartment, they kind of dream of what they could, where they could be. And of course, do another amazing number. We're only in the first act and Charity's already done three huge dance numbers at the very least, but there's got to be something better than this. One of my favorite numbers.

[53:59] Jeff Parsons: Is it?

[54:00] Dylis Croman: It's so fantastic. I just love the sound of it. I don't know if it's cultural appropriation, but there's so much life in the rhythm of it and I love it.

[54:12] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. No, you're right. The syncopation, the rhythm, the empowerment. It's a woman's empowerment moment. Three women, best pals.

[54:23] Dylis Croman: And three women. You had me at three ladies.

[54:26] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, exactly. These three ladies are just dancing their hearts out and it really is so much fun to dance. That's one of the things that I never, I mean, as far as going back to when I went on for the first time suddenly like that, I'd never rehearsed that. I hadn't even run that number from beginning to end. I just was on the side and rehearsal kind of marking it on the sides of the rehearsal room. So when I went on that night, that was the first time I'd ever done it and it was thrilling. It was thrilling because also dance is what I feel most comfortable doing. So that's my language.

[55:05] Dylis Croman: But also you're an alien. That's insane. I don't even know how one would do that.

[55:10] Jeff Parsons: I don't know either, but I did it. I don't know how good it was. I don't know. Let me put it this way. I don't want to see a video of it.

[55:18] Dylis Croman: Yeah. After there's got to be something better than this, Charity, I don't exactly know why she goes to the 92nd Street Y. Does she just go for funsies? You know what? This actually makes sense now that I think about it because she's been to the Pompeii Club. She's talked about there's got to be something better out there for me. So she goes to learn about culture by going to the 92nd Street Y and attend some sort of class or something like that that would help her feel elevated and cultured.

[55:54] Jeff Parsons: Right. But isn't this where what she learns is this preacher preaching?

[56:01] Dylis Croman: Is the Rhythm of Life? I don't think that happens in Act 2, right?

[56:04] Jeff Parsons: Okay. I'm totally blanking on how. Maybe we did it a little differently.

[56:08] Dylis Croman: Maybe. Yeah, because I was looking at the original script. So maybe you switch things around. Because when she goes to the 92nd Street Y in the original script, that's where she meets Oscar because she's not sure what lecture to go to and he's going to this one about something or other. And she's like, oh, well, I'll just go with him and then gets in the elevator with him. And then the first act ends with the elevator stopping and this amazing scene that we talked about before, which is him freaking out from claustrophobia, but projecting on her that he's taking care of her and then her actually taking care of him.

[56:46] Dylis Croman: Yes, exactly. And that to me is like a pivotal scene because she tries to take care of herself as much as she can and she works hard and all the above. But really, ultimately, she wants to take care of someone else and have that in return as well. But she unfortunately tends to do a little bit more of the first part than she does the latter. But that's a moment for her and for him to realize that this woman is actually incredibly caring and she's very caring.

[57:22] Jeff Parsons: Can you tell me anything about Dennis O'Hare? Because I think he's one of the most brilliant actors we have, period.

[57:25] Dylis Croman: Oh, he is so brilliant. Oh, my God, he really, really, really is. I mean, he's such a kind person. I mean, as far as telling anything about him, as brilliant as this person is, it's always so refreshing to meet someone like that and to work with someone like that, that has that much brilliance inside of them and also just like the most thoughtful, kind, generous person. And I think that's what makes him so great at what he does is because he taps into real feelings. He really does feel empathy. And I would watch him and just study how he worked. And to me, from the outside looking in, it looked like to me, he was really just wanting to be in the moment of things. It didn't ever seem like he was planning anything or coming to the rehearsal at any point with something mapped out. He just really went with what was being given to him. So watching Christina and him work was...

[58:32] Dylis Croman: Pretty cool, because it just was really off the cuff and organic. I had read that Christina really fought for the show to continue on, because there was a moment where they didn't think they were going, y'all didn't think you were going to Broadway, and she kind of fought for that. And knowing like what her health trajectory has been in recent time, I'm so glad that she fought for it and got to dance on Broadway. You know what I mean? How cool is that? Talk about not having any regrets.

[59:05] Dylis Croman: Absolutely, that's it. That's a great full circle to talk about regrets, because she did not want to have a regret on that, and she did make it happen for herself and for everybody involved in the project. She's a fighter. She is charity in that way. She perseveres. I noticed that from her from the very get-go, just how she worked in the studio, the kind of, you can see how somebody works, and whether they have that old-school way of working. I like to call it old-school, but like that old-school way of hard work, or that just kind of like, well, we'll see what happens. I'm going to put 40% in now, and when I get on stage, it'll match somewhere. It'll even out. But with her, she's from the old-school mindset. And I think that she danced a lot when she was younger. She took dance classes, and she was such a pivotal moment in the show's success.

[1:00:05] Dylis Croman: That's great. It's interesting that Act 1 just ends with them being stuck in the elevator, and when we come back from intermission, it's literally the moment that we ended the first act.

[1:00:16] Dylis Croman: Right, okay, yes. It's all coming back now. Sometimes with intermission, it's like, and now two days later, right, and they're married and in bed or something. But in this one, it's literally, they're still in the elevator.

[1:00:30] Dylis Croman: Yeah, absolutely still in the elevator. And finally, they get rescued. But it's enough to really cement this relationship as like the next great hope in Charity Hope Valentine's life. And they continue to see each other in a very 60s way. They're exploring culture and life, and they find themselves in this Rhythm of Life church. Huge musical number that happens right here at the top of Act 2. I also really love that marijuana, but cannabis plays a little bit of a part in this show. I don't know if it's the first one, but talking about how 60s this show is, it plays kind of a pivotal role because the police come to break up this little shindig worshiping party, if you will.

[1:01:15] Dylis Croman: They do. Like you're saying, in that time period of the 60s, moving into the 70s, but in this case, the 60s, it's freedom. It's trying to figure out, again, going back to the frug, where do I fit in? What class do I belong to? And in this church per se, I guess, they're living a different type of religion, which is the religion of love and freedom and having a good time. But I love that part of the show.

[1:01:51] Dylis Croman: Rhett George, let me tell you something. That guy right there, Rhett George, who played... Why am I blanking on the character? Daddy, I need to look it. I need to look it. I cannot come up with the character's name. Rhett George is and has always been the funniest man I've ever met.

[1:02:08] Dylis Croman: Daddy Johann Sebastian Brubeck.

[1:02:10] Dylis Croman: Oh, that's the fool. Is that right?

[1:02:12] Dylis Croman: Yeah, well, I think we just called him Dad. I think we just shortened it to Daddy. I don't remember that one. But yeah, Rhett George played Daddy, and he is brilliant.

[1:02:26] Dylis Croman: All of this craziness only brings Oscar and Charity together even closer. He calls her Sweet Charity. He has a song called Sweet Charity. That's where the title of the musical comes from. But Nikki and Helena from the dance hall, they kind of burst her bubble a little bit because they call her out on the fact that she hasn't told him where she works yet. And she's terrified, obviously, because she doesn't want her employment to mess up this relationship. When she finally does get the courage to tell him where she works, it turns out that he knows. He already knows because he followed her to work one night, and he's fine with it. And this acceptance for who she is, you know, top to bottom, brings so much joy that now we get yet another huge number, among other numbers that I'm skipping, by the way. I'm a brass band.

[1:03:21] Dylis Croman: Oh, God. I love that number.

[1:03:24] Dylis Croman: When do you get to do numbers like that?

[1:03:26] Dylis Croman: Yeah.

[1:03:27] Dylis Croman: That are just sheer joy.

[1:03:28] Dylis Croman: Sheer joy. That's exactly what brass band is. It's sheer joy. It's in the movement quality of the piece with those big brass band runs, with the knees hiking up, with the arms swinging with pride. And it's the first time she's felt love in this way. It's the first time she's actually experienced someone reciprocating what she can give to someone else. And I can say this for myself now in my lifetime, just sitting here talking to you, is I have full circle back to my birthday. I told you before, I'm later more mature, I guess you'd say, in my career and in my life. And I know now what Charity felt at that moment, because I have found that person in life. And it is, it's such a joyful, it's the most joyful feeling ever to really feel like that someone's going to reciprocate the love that you have inside to give. But yeah, for her, Charity, in that moment, she just is over the moon.

[1:04:36] Dylis Croman: That's so sweet. This all leads to her last day at work, where she's now leaving to, in theory, get married to Oscar. And so he comes to pick her up. This is the number that I always forget is also in the show.

[1:04:52] Dylis Croman: Where is it?

[1:04:53] Dylis Croman: I always cry at weddings.

[1:04:54] Dylis Croman: Oh, yeah.

[1:04:55] Dylis Croman: Which is like another huge production number. But I'm like, Oh my gosh, yeah, this number is in there too. It always reminds me a little bit. I'm getting married in the morning. Like, it's at the same place in the show as in My Fair Lady. So what was that number like?

[1:05:12] Dylis Croman: I'm pretty sure like, I don't know. Yeah, we didn't have that one. And I mean, I know I remember the movie, but we didn't we cut that part.

[1:05:20] Dylis Croman: Okay, well, then maybe I guess I'm forgetting it for a reason.

[1:05:23] Dylis Croman: Yeah, I mean, the next I think the next piece that we go to is the Yeah, I mean, he meets her in the diner.

[1:05:34] Dylis Croman: So this great scene where now they're meeting up after her leaving work is so heartbreaking because he basically tells her, I can't do it. I can't go through with it. I thought I was okay with everything that you've done. But all I keep thinking about is the men and etc., etc. And, and she's heartbroken, which, once again, we're thinking like many of the musical comedies that have come before this would expect charity to end up with Oscar and they live happily ever after. It's not how this show ends.

[1:06:10] Dylis Croman: No, she metaphorically gets pushed in the lake again. But then tell me how you guys ended the show. Do you? Because I know it's changed a lot.

[1:06:19] Dylis Croman: You know, I think that it might have always been kind of a tricky way to end the show is because, like you're saying, people want the pearly gates ending where everything works out fine. But the way that we ended it, it was, she sings the Where Am I Going song, which I love singing that song. And that's just such a heartbreaking song too, but through that song, she, as a character, as charity, the lyrics really start to bring you up. And I can't, I'm not going to be able to come up with them now. But I just remember singing that song and finding the strength within the song to keep moving forward.

[1:07:00] Dylis Croman: To keep moving. And so then she turns upstage and does this really priceless, iconic walk upstage, which Gwen Birden was very, she was the one that coined that walk. And you just, you walk upstage and the lighting and everything just zeros in on just her in a spotlight, you know, at the very upstage center section of the stage. And that's, you know, that's where the show ends. But it's hard for people to be like, wait, wait, we had to process that in just that one song. But it really is, to me, that's what makes that song so brilliant, is because you can find, you find the strength as the character to take yourself upstage with that iconic, proud, prideful walk. And just know, and basically what I think it's trying to say is that she's going to be okay, because she always has been okay.

[1:08:05] Dylis Croman: Who she is, is who she will always be.

[1:08:09] Dylis Croman: That's right. Yeah. It's just, it's ended with a dot, dot, dot. And it's just for the interpretation of the audience member to, you know, make up her future from then on out. But I would hope that people would know her character by the end, enough to know that she will, she will be okay, and that she will persevere.

[1:08:25] Dylis Croman: And I think that all of the endings say that, right? The ending of the movie is, I think, a flower child type person coming, bringing her a daisy. And, you know, like a little show of kindness or love to help her keep moving. Originally in the script, there's a, like a magic fairy that appears. And she, and she sees this magic fairy. And the fairy is like saying, everything will be all right, everything will be all right. And she's like, oh, my gosh, thank you. Thank you so much. And then the fairy turns around. And it says, like, watch the fairy eight o'clock tonight on and it turns out that it's like a live commercial for an upcoming television program, but she just happened to receive it as like, something true and real.

[1:09:15] Dylis Croman: And it's very charity hope that no matter what's happening, no matter what the sign looks like, she's going to interpret it as time to keep moving. I honestly, I mean, and I'm, and I'm certainly just telling you the absolute truth of who I am as a person as Dylis Croman. I see signs all the time in my life that I take as truthful, like signs that are only meant for me, and like, nobody else will understand it, but it's for me. And, and, you know, and I, and I roll with that. And it's, you know, not that I don't, I don't get too woo woo about things, but I, you know, I try to stay grounded as far as like knowing reality of stuff. But, but I do see signs. And I think these signs are all over for every single person on this earth.

If you, you know, if we just are staying open to it and keep our eyes open and our hearts open, that's the main thing is our hearts being open. But, you know, there is something to signs and following the connect the dots, you know, of those signs.

[1:10:14] Dylis Croman: And being present enough to see them.

[1:10:16] Dylis Croman: Exactly. And being present and open enough to see them. Yeah, exactly.

[1:10:21] Dylis Croman: That's great.

[1:10:21] Dylis Croman: Yeah.

[1:10:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you so much for doing this with me, Dylis. What a great conversation. You're wonderful.

[1:10:27] Dylis Croman: Oh my gosh. I loved every second of our conversation.

[1:10:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, just like Listener Chris with a K, be sure to email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Follow us on social media. We're on Instagram, Twitter. Oh, it's called X now. I'm going to have that's going to take a while folks. Bear with me. And TikTok. We have great content on there. We also have Patreon exclamation point, which just got a new theme song. So sign up for that for only $1 a month to support the regular podcast and to receive bonus episodes. We have our Tee Public Store finalizing our newest design. All of the profits we receive from those purchases on our Tee Public Store go to Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS.

And if you just want to support the show, honestly, the best way to do is to leave a nice rating and review wherever you might be listening. More than anything, so grateful to have you part of this wonderful podcasting community. Hey, Miss Dylis, how do we follow you and what's next?

[1:11:36] Dylis Croman: Yeah, so I'm on Instagram at DyeCrow33. What what? And I'm also on Facebook under my name Dylis Croman. That's pretty much my socials. And then I guess the thing that's coming up is I'm going to be playing Roxy in Chicago coming up this this next weekend. So it'd be Labor Day weekend. It's just for a little a small stint. But I know there'll be more in the future. But for now, I'm just popping into the show and going to be playing Roxy Hart.

[1:12:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So incredible, incredible dream. It's a dream. You being able to pop into the show and save it started many, many moons ago. And it's it's fun to see that it's still happening.

[1:12:24] Dylis Croman: Yeah. I'm grateful. Well, we're grateful for you. And I'm grateful for all of you listeners. Thank you so much for listening. And remember to live hopefully ever after, which I think is like, do you remember that one? Did you guys do that? There was a sign that came down at the very end of the original production of Hopefully Ever After. And it said, and she lived hopefully.

[1:12:48] Dylis Croman: That's right. I do remember that. Yes. And that's a perfect tag.