This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] J. Bailey Burcham: The one thing that I wanted to say about taboo subjects is that I think that the more conversations we're willing to have in our culture, the more taboo things are actually going to be about doing our work, just as humans, you know, that hopefully it'll be less about prejudice and societal systems that are somehow designed to keep people down, and more about what things in my own life have I decided are taboo and not worth exploring, which is ultimately where all of that prejudice and hatred and vitriol comes from anyway, you know?

[0:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. And I think, especially in America, because I can't speak for other countries, but I do know in America, there's also a lot of pride, right? There's a lot of pride surrounding what you know. I think it actually takes a really strong person when presented with a taboo subject to say, well, maybe I was taught wrong. Maybe there's something new, because you can always change your mind.

[1:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are talking about the musical Taboo. And to talk to me about this fascinating piece of musical theater is someone who knows the ins and outs of theater, both onstage and offstage. He also is a podcaster himself. Everyone, please welcome J. Bailey Burcham. You can call him Bailey.

[1:54] J. Bailey Burcham: That's right.

[1:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Hey!

[1:56] J. Bailey Burcham: Hey! Thank you so much for being willing to do this.

[1:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course. I'm so glad we got connected. I think we got connected from Kila, right?

[2:03] J. Bailey Burcham: Come on. Shout out to Kila.

[2:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Kila Packett, one of my dear friends, he's a teacher with me at Shakespeare Youth Fest is how we know each other.

[2:12] J. Bailey Burcham: Oh, fantastic. He was on our Assassin's episode. We had a really great time.

[2:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You did. I loved that episode. Great episode.

[2:19] J. Bailey Burcham: Thank you so much. Now, when I put it out to you about what show we would want to cover, Taboo was one of the ones that came back.

[2:27] J. Bailey Burcham: I think it was one of the first things I listed, actually.

[2:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So talk to me about that because that's unusual and also obsessed.

[2:36] J. Bailey Burcham: So I love, if you listen to my podcast, which I'll promote later, we talk about the craziest things and I get really deep into a lot of stuff. But sometimes I just like talking about like curios, things that aren't necessarily good or bad, but like, whoa, we can talk about this forever.

[2:56] J. Bailey Burcham: Yeah. I did an episode on the movie Showgirls and I couldn't stop talking. I mean, we had to cut me off. We hit like an hour and I was like, OK, I have to stop because I have so much to say. And I'm obsessed with these kind of things. And Taboo is something that I learned about because of my obsession with Rosie O'Donnell when I was like 13.

[3:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you. Right there with you. Grew up on the Rosie O'Donnell show. People, we didn't have YouTube. I'm like, this is just a fact. And so the clips that I saw about New York Theatre were because of the Rosie O'Donnell show that I would tape on my VHS and then come home from school and see if maybe there was something from Broadway on that tape.

[3:38] J. Bailey Burcham: Exactly. I also have VHS tapes right next to me of the Rosie O'Donnell show. And then like there's commercials, there's random stuff before and after. I love it. But yeah, she was sort of my, not my intro, but my gateway to New York and theatre. I'm from Kansas. You know, we have theatre there, obviously. Music Theatre Wichita is a really great regional theatre. But I, you know, I had only been to New York one time when I was in first grade. Lion King was going on, but I didn't get to see it and things. But Rosie had that huge Circle of Life performance. Do you remember that on her show?

[4:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: 100%. I love it.

[4:17] J. Bailey Burcham: I just got chills. I think about it all the time.

[4:19] J. Bailey Burcham: There were so many performances on the Rosie show that incorporated the audience. You know what I mean? I just, because we did a Titanic episode, they sang like Godspeed Titanic in the audience. And there's like Brian D.R.C. James fully realizing the Titanic in front of him. And then like Jo Beth from Kansas is sitting next to her. And you know what I mean? It's incredible.

[4:41] J. Bailey Burcham: Anything she said, I was really like, great, let's go. And so if her name was on something, I was going to check it out. And when she put her name on a show from the West End and I heard Boy George, a name I knew, like, you know, I had heard Karma Chameleon. I'm sure from movies and things like, you know, it pops up.

[5:00] J. Bailey Burcham: And if you grew up with VH1, that music video was going to come across your face at some point.

[5:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. I still remember every shot of that music video. And I haven't watched it since I was a kid. So, yeah, no, like I knew that. And then there was a lot of in the 90s, there's a lot of Boy George satire or like poking fun even on SNL, Mad TV, things like that. So I kind of knew who Boy George was, but I didn't fully I was never fully immersed in the Culture Club scene.

[5:30] J. Bailey Burcham: Yeah. It's an iconic look that was easy to parody, but that's where it ended.

[5:35] J. Bailey Burcham: Yes, exactly. And I but yeah, Rosie, you know, and I think we'll get into maybe why she might have been the problem here or the reason why it didn't do so well, maybe. I don't know. But at the time, I didn't know anything about that. It was just something that was just in my brain. And when you said sometimes I like to do things that aren't so known or like flops or like, you know, I was like, well, Taboo is the first thought that came to mind.

[6:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As people may know who have listened to the podcast before, the F word is not a bad word on the show. And by F word, I mean flop, right? Because I find them endlessly fascinating. And I think sometimes we as a culture can learn more from them than even our hits, right? That we absolutely treasure so dearly. And in the case of Taboo, I can think of no better example.

[6:27] J. Bailey Burcham: Okay, just jumping straight to Tony Award time, right? When the Tony Awards come out in 2004. Yeah, 2004, which is when Taboo was eligible. Thank you very much. Here are the nominees for best musical Avenue Q. The Boy From Oz, Carolina Change, Wicked. So Taboo does not make the bill for best musical. And it doesn't and they don't even perform.

[6:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, they didn't even perform, which is criminal, in my opinion.

[6:59] J. Bailey Burcham: I agree. But I agree completely. Would I take any of these nominations away from these musicals? Probably not. No, I mean, I think I think they're all great in their own way. And there are a few masterpieces Carolina Change. I love Carolina Change. I'm a big Kushner fan. Sure. As well as Jean Tessori.

[7:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. That being said, when you look at that lineup and see how many big hitters were in the Broadway musical theater season that year, and now almost 20 years have passed. Is it worth it then to look back and wonder, okay, did we miss something with Taboo? The Bailey answer is yes.

[7:40] J. Bailey Burcham: As the Jeff answer. Good. Okay. I think we're gonna be on the same page about this one, because I watched I think we probably watched the same one. But I watched the YouTube West End version with Luke Evans.

[7:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Interesting. I watched the YouTube Broadway version, which is barely distinguishable. You can't really hear much, but it's also the last performance. Like their closing night, and it's pretty electrifying.

[8:05] J. Bailey Burcham: That's awesome. I clicked through that one, but felt like, oh, well, the quality isn't as good. But then I learned, oh, they're two kind of totally different shows in some ways.

[8:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Night and day.

[8:26] J. Bailey Burcham: This is gonna be interesting, because I have two hot takes when it comes to Taboo. Hot take number one, I kind of like what they did with the Broadway version. Cool. Hot take number two, I believe Taboo walked so Kinky Boots could fly.

[8:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, I agree with that. I think especially because on Broadway, we're not really talking about sexuality in this way. Boy From Oz is there, obviously, but this is talking about—

[9:02] J. Bailey Burcham: No, there is a difference between a gay musical at this point in time. We're like, this is post-producers, keep it gay. So everything's okay as long as we're winking.

[9:08] J. Bailey Burcham: As long as we're winking in their showmanship. How about that? Then Taboo comes and it is quite possibly the queerest musical in Broadway history. No apologies whatsoever from the writing or the performances. Talk about being a pioneer.

[9:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. I think that may have been part of the reason audiences weren't fully, and it sucks, I don't like it, but they weren't fully ready for it. They weren't ready for it, not to mention they weren't trying to be a traditional musical in any way, shape, or form, which is going to piss off New York critics. At best, what you can hope for is to make a big splash, have a cult following, and then the show lives on after that. Unfortunately, where we are right now is that Boy George has the rights to the show and isn't really interested in revisiting it. I'm pitching it at the Pasadena Playhouse right now, on revisit to it. We're doing Head Over Heels right now, which was a peppermint.

[10:26] J. Bailey Burcham: Once again, Taboo walked so Head Over Heels could also be a flop, but fly for a little bit.

[10:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Agreed. Agreed completely. No, 100%. It was a flop, but it was a flop that had fans. It had its people. It's a flop with a very loyal high school base that really wants to sing those songs at the top of their lungs.

[10:41] J. Bailey Burcham: Exactly. Also, it's the Go-Go's, and that's a generation of people who want to hear that music, but a lot of what people said was they got there and saw the show, and they're like, well, I just wanted to dance. It was too long. It was a lot of this. What the Playhouse is doing is—

[10:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Pasadena Playhouse, by the way.

[11:03] J. Bailey Burcham: Pasadena Playhouse. Amazing regional theater on the West Coast.

[11:03] J. Bailey Burcham: Thank you. I'm the operations manager there. I'm very proud to work there. We just announced our season. Go check it out. It's very exciting, but Head Over Heels is our opener. Alaska5000 from RuPaul's Drag Race is playing the queen. George Salazar is in it. Leah Delaria from Orange is the New Black, who plays Boo. She's playing the king. It's going to be epic, to say the least, but we have made it a 90-minute, instead of two-and-a-half hours, it's a 90-minute immersive dance show. Everyone is allowed to party and dance and be part of the show, and it all takes place around you. There's no seating. Everything is a flat stage. We've made the whole theater a flat stage.

[11:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh. I can't stop smiling.

[11:54] J. Bailey Burcham: I know. I'm so excited about it. You have to go see it. Really, what it is, is let's take things that maybe weren't appreciated and should have been and have a new take on them. Flip it on its head a little bit. I think, Taboo, it's time for it. It's itching for it.

[12:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think somebody should take this. It is, and especially in 2021. Come on. Everything we're talking about now, everything that we're ... I don't have a better way to say this. Everything that we're allowed to talk about now, and what I mean about that is, artistically, I feel like we've been stifled in the world of queer discussion. You have, like you said, parody. You have things like John Waters. You have I Am Divine. You have things like this, but we're only now at a place where RuPaul's Drag Race can be mainstream. I think this show would have legs right now. I'm interested to visit the Broadway one, but the West End one stole my heart.

[13:05] J. Bailey Burcham: Love that. I love it. I love every bit of it. I cried at the end when they were singing Karma Chameleon, and all just kind of standing at the front of the stage singing it. They weren't even ... I feel it right now, pulsing through my body. I kind of love this show.

[13:38] J Bailey Burcham: If you're a lot of people outside of that subculture don't always love those shows, right? Like, like, I would argue a lot of older generations hated Rent, like pay your rent.

[13:49] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah, problem.

[13:50] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah, exactly. But I also think a lot of younger people hate Hair. But this is similar. But I would argue that it's like, even more niche, because the New Romantic era came and went so quickly. I think that's probably one of the big things. Can we actually go there right now?

[14:06] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Let's go there right now.

[14:07] J Bailey Burcham: Okay, so Taboo has everything to do with the New Romantic movement that happened in the UK, late 70s, early 80s. Super, super fast came and went. Yeah. It was born out of the glam rock period.

[14:19] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah, kind of that punk sort of, I was gonna say punk, you know, like, I don't even know how to it was all part of this glam rock, alternate disco.

[14:26] J Bailey Burcham: Right? Like the end of the 70s, where it was going into a weirder nightclub vibe of disco and a little bit less like Saturday Night Fever.

[14:39] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Exactly. It was still nightclub. And it was still all about pushing fashion. Yeah. And create, you know, spending all day creating your look, and then going out all night and right partying on the dance floor. So it's still got that element of disco, but with more of the influence of glam and punk rock.

[14:55] J Bailey Burcham: So what ends up coming out in terms of fashion, is this a little bit of grunge, a little bit of in your face, a lot of gender play, but all layered on top of this kind of Victorian, lots of frills, lots of lace, a very almost feminine way of dressing. It means that a lot of boys look like girls. It means that a lot of girls had best friends who were boys.

[15:27] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right, exactly. Yeah. And I think it also created a lot of cultures, right? Like it's the New Romantics themselves was a was kind of a quick thing, but it kind of created club kid culture.

[15:38] J Bailey Burcham: And a lot of people would say that Lee Bowery might even be sort of the parent of all of that, the mother, the father, the everything.

[15:46] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Absolutely. Not to mention you had even mainstream bands like Duran Duran.

[15:53] J Bailey Burcham: Right. And of course, Boy George, you know, coming out of this and making it mainstream for better or worse. I think Lee Bowery kind of looked down upon that.

[16:04] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Sure. But then even fast forward to today, I mean, Lady Gaga is referencing Lee Bowery all the time.

[16:13] J Bailey Burcham: One hundred percent. You can't tune into an episode of RuPaul's Drag Race without seeing some sort of Lee Bowery inspired look on the runway. I think Shea Coulee even says Lee Bowery a couple of times in her season. It's like, oh yeah, this is very Lee Bowery, that kind of stuff. And Sasha Velour is also someone who does a lot of Lee Bowery-esque kind of stuff. And even designers now. Vivian Westwood.

[16:47] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh, one hundred percent. Coming out of that.

[16:49] J Bailey Burcham: Constantly pulling stuff.

[16:50] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, it's had a much bigger impact than the few years that it was really alive, which is kind of amazing.

[17:00] J Bailey Burcham: So there were a couple of clubs in the UK that were very much tied to this movement. The one that Boy George went to the most with his friend Marilyn was called...

[17:11] Sarah Uriarte Berry: The Blitz?

[17:12] J Bailey Burcham: The Blitz. Yeah, you're right. And Lee Bowery created his own called Taboo, which is why this musical, or one of the reasons why this musical is called Taboo.

[17:23] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yes.

[17:24] J Bailey Burcham: And Lee Bowery, you know, obviously known for his fashion, also known for the really bizarre performance art. Despite being openly gay and very sexually active with men, married a woman who was his, I guess, partner in this performance art. And one of the things that they would always do is he would wear her like a backpack. I guess that's the only way to really say. And he would come out in this huge costume and everybody would go crazy. And then all of a sudden he would pretend like he was going into labor and she would come down out of his cooch.

[18:06] Sarah Uriarte Berry: And he would give birth to her on stage while she's holding on to like sausage links as the umbilical cord.

[18:13] J Bailey Burcham: And then he would grab him and cut him with his teeth. I mean, he did the craziest stuff. And that particular moment is actually in the musical Taboo, I think in the second act, but at least in the Broadway version.

[18:29] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I don't think that's in the West End version.

[18:32] J Bailey Burcham: That's amazing. So he was just known for this crazy, crazy avant-garde stuff that just like so much of culture starts in the underground and then reverberates for generations to come. And I think that that's the other reason that this musical is called Taboo, is that for everything that one generation thinks is unacceptable or that we're not really willing to talk about is then becomes the next generation's main source for inspiration in many cases.

[19:05] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right. Absolutely. 100%.

[19:08] J Bailey Burcham: That also leads me to then ask, is there ever going to be a time when something isn't taboo?

[19:15] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right. That's kind of interesting because I think no, I think there will always be something new because we're human, because we're human. And unfortunately, like certain conversations weren't even happening until like the 80s or 90s.

[19:28] J Bailey Burcham: Right. Like, I don't know that we even had the vocabulary to talk about trans individuals until like the 90s.

[19:39] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right. Like, I mean, we did, but we were using like kind of offensive terminology instead because we didn't. It was just taboo. It was just different. And now it's like part of everyday life, or at least for me, you know, as an artist and things like that, like a lot of my friends are trans or even non-binary or whatever. And those are things that I don't know that I even would have understood when I was 13 watching this musical or listening to this soundtrack.

[20:07] J Bailey Burcham: I do think art has a lot of responsibility, especially theater, especially Broadway has a lot of responsibility to move us forward, progress us. And it does that a lot. I think Rent actually might have been a huge catalyst for the ability for Americans to talk about AIDS in a way that wasn't offensive.

[20:25] Sarah Uriarte Berry: It wasn't for me.

[20:27] J Bailey Burcham: Hedwig was another one.

[20:29] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Hedwig and the Angry Inch.

[20:30] J Bailey Burcham: Thank you. I always forget about Hedwig and that's very true. I have a Hedwig tattoo on both shoulders. I'm a deep Hedwig head.

[20:39] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh, that's hilarious.

[20:40] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah. You can't see, obviously it's a podcast, but I do. Take my word for it. But it has a similar feel to Taboo where there's a lot of, it doesn't necessarily have a plot. It like kind of does. You're following people. You're not following storyline.

[21:00] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yes. Yes.

[21:01] J Bailey Burcham: And we're following Billy and we meet George and it's about George and Lee Bowery's relationship, kind of, but it's also about the subculture and it's also about the New Romantics and it's also about just like opening a club and being silly and performance art and singing great songs.

[21:20] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sidebar, can John Cameron Mitchell please do a film version of Taboo?

[21:27] J Bailey Burcham: That's it. That's what has to happen.

[21:29] Sarah Uriarte Berry: That's what needs to happen, right?

[21:30] J Bailey Burcham: John Cameron Mitchell directing, producing, potentially playing something in it. Yeah.

[21:37] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Would be phenomenal. I don't know that John is right for Lee Bowery.

[21:41] J Bailey Burcham: No.

[21:42] Sarah Uriarte Berry: But there's a part. There's a part there.

[21:44] J Bailey Burcham: Please. He can live in that. So Taboo gets written by Boy George and produced in London in 2002. Now the story goes is that Rosie O'Donnell saw it in a bar and then decided to put it on Broadway. And then when it all blew up into like a full-fledged Broadway production, it lost all of its magic.

[22:05] Sarah Uriarte Berry: That I'm not entirely sure is totally accurate because it wasn't exactly a bar. It's still 400 seats, this theater. So it's still like a mid-sized theater.

[22:18] J Bailey Burcham: And what they were able to preserve from the London production is this self-awareness. And when I say self-aware, so often in musical theater, self-aware is, ha ha, we're doing a musical so you can't make fun of us because we know we're doing it first, right? That's not the kind of self-awareness I'm talking about.

[22:41] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I'm talking about people on stage, almost Brechtian, participating in creating something and that there is an audience right in front of them who is taking it in. And everyone's totally okay with recognizing that.

[23:00] J Bailey Burcham: So I think that that was one of the true, and you can tell me because you saw the London version, that is one of the true guiding forces in this sort of evening of theater is like, it's not that serious.

[23:11] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right. Yeah. It is very, the West End version anyway, Brechtian is a good way to put it. It's got that sort of for the people kind of feel, which is what Brecht was trying to do, right? Bring it down from the lofty society and bring it back to like, well, okay, but we're putting on a play, but also let's put on a play.

[23:30] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah. Let's stop pretending.

[23:32] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Let's take the pretension out of it and let's just tell a story and talk to the audience as people and, you know, but the West End version, there is an intimacy to it because of that.

[23:42] J Bailey Burcham: I don't think it's a matter of how many seats are there. I think you're right. There's an intimacy in the way that they're bringing you in and they're looking at the audience and really speaking to them. And it's not even a breaking of the fourth wall necessarily as much as just an inclusion. There's a lot of them sitting in like lounging on the edge of the stage. There's a lot of them just like in chairs, like chilling while Lee Bowery's up doing something silly.

[24:08] Sarah Uriarte Berry: And I felt even watching it on YouTube, which by the way, it's very cinematically shot, the West End one. It's really beautiful. And Luke Evans, who I really only know from like, I don't know, Fast and Furious, which I both ironically and unironically am obsessed with.

[24:29] J Bailey Burcham: I don't know what else is he in, but he's fantastic in it.

[24:34] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Wasn't he in Nine Perfect Strangers that just came out?

[24:37] J Bailey Burcham: Oh, he is. I think he is. Yeah, absolutely. Which I haven't seen yet. I got to watch that.

[24:42] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah, but you feel the intimacy. You feel like they're right there and you're with them and you're in the club, like experiencing all this. And that to me is kind of the perfect way to do the show. And you could do that in a Broadway theater, theoretically, I think. But I will say, so she puts $10 million into this thing of her own money, which is hardcore. That means she really believed in this thing.

[25:10] J Bailey Burcham: And she brings it to Broadway, obviously, but then she hires the director whose name I am forgetting.

[25:22] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Christopher Renshaw.

[25:23] J Bailey Burcham: Everybody loved his revival of The King and I in the 90s with Donna Murphy. Hands down, everybody thought he was the best thing since sliced bread. Then he comes back to Broadway, and I believe does High Society, which is a Cole Porter musical adaptation of the film. He, I think, gets let go before it opens.

[25:39] Sarah Uriarte Berry: He does. And it kind of ruins his reputation a little bit.

[25:48] J Bailey Burcham: And so Rosie is sort of taking a chance on hiring this guy because of the last thing that he's done. And the rumors go that he was not a very committed or commanding in the room director, and it led to a lot of insecurity. It led to a lot of Boy George not really getting to, like not being directed a lot. And then they start cutting things that George couldn't act well.

[26:20] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I know Raul Esparza stormed out of a rehearsal one time because he got a note from Rosie. He's known to be a diva.

[26:30] J Bailey Burcham: He's great in this show because he's at his best in the show, in my opinion, which is like figuring out how, this sounds terrible, how his unlikability can be likable.

[26:44] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Sure. He must have been phenomenal because he gets the Drama Desk.

[26:53] J Bailey Burcham: No, he is. He is phenomenal. He gets a nomination for the Tony.

[26:57] Sarah Uriarte Berry: He's undeniable. Now I want to put a pin right here and talk a little bit about theater gossip because this show had more than its fair share thanks to the New York Post.

[27:15] J Bailey Burcham: And it's so annoying, Bailey, like, I gotta be honest, everything is written so carefully. And it's like, sources say an unnamed person within the show has told the New York Post that it does. And it feels icky. It just feels gross to me. Yeah, not to mention in terms of timing. This is when Rosie, I believe, was going through like a lot of—I mean, she was tabloid fodder because her show had come to an end. There was this whole lawsuit about her magazine. Some people had said that she was difficult to work with. She got like a super lesbian haircut. People were still not over the whole Ellen DeGeneres thing. So I'm not entirely sure that everybody loved lesbians yet. You know, like there were so many things that I feel like fueled this gossip in a way that it kind of poisoned how the show could have been received.

And I mentioned earlier, but we just covered Titanic. And it also had a lot of rumors and a lot of gossip among New York journalists. And the thing about Titanic was that it was good. Everybody agreed that it was good. So you look at all of those reviews, and inevitably they say, well, despite all the gossip, I guess they pulled it off. And what really sucks is that when Taboo got its bad reviews, all they could say was, well, I guess the gossip was right. Right. Which isn't necessarily true. And if there's already some bigotry there about Rosie or about the content, then they're going to add—that's going to add on to all of it as well. And in white Broadway of the early 2000s, you know, sure.

Yeah, white, straight, straight male, male. Exactly. Exactly. I also want to give a shout out to Rosie because I think one of her great strengths is recognizing when a show, when a musical has an emotionally evocative score. She really pushed Titanic on the audience, on her audience, and it paid off, right? She loved Seussical to the point of actually going into the show and doing Cat in the Hat. And look, I love the Seussical score. I think I have more fun listening to the soundtrack or the cast album than even seeing the show in the theater. And when she sees Taboo in London, once again, her flags go off and recognize this score for what it is, which is pretty freaking fantastic. Phenomenal.

And not just in like, oh, I really want to sing this song. Look at the nuts and bolts and skeleton of this. It has good bones. Oh, yeah. The poetry of his lyrics is. Yes. Incredible. It is. I kind of want him to write more musicals. Thank you. Absolutely. Yeah. Like I think his musical theater brain really works in terms of, you know, and I read some things where a lot of people were commenting like, oh, there's just so many ballads and then there's songs where I just don't know why they're singing it. And I'm like, no, it's like the same as Hair. It's like it's tone, it's energy, it's essence. You know, it's not always to tell you a story or give you anything. But then there's the song Ich bin Kunst that I have listened to probably five—I just got chills—five hundred times since we decided to do this episode.

And it's the moment after Lee finds out he has AIDS. Mm hmm. And I love this score even more than I did when I was 14 and was just listening to it like, yeah, musical theater, whatever Rosie says. Sure. Yeah, absolutely. I love this thing. It's been Kunst, meaning I am art. Oh, I actually didn't know that. I love that. Once again, Lady Gaga in her applause song, right? Suddenly the Kunst is me, right? Wow. She's referencing the same stuff. Yes. I didn't even think of that. I also like some of the weirder songs. Love is a question mark, which is really weird. It's so weird, but I love it. It's great. And even the opening, the freaks, the ode to attention seekers, is what it's called. It just—it's speaking right to me as a performer, as a theater artist, like right away.

It's like it's kind of the Velkommen. No, it's one hundred percent Velkommen. One hundred percent. But I also—I'm there for it. Like I get speaking there, speaking directly to our kind of people. And it's not necessarily speaking to the critics of 2003 New York theater. Yeah. You know.

[32:04] J Bailey Burcham: OK, so in London, the whole framework behind telling the story revolves around this character named Billy, right?

[32:10] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yes. And he I think is supposed to be this fish out of water lens for the audience to connect with. Right. He is—he is us going into this new romantic scene and being like, whoa, all of these weirdos. But I'm also being accepted and love them.

[32:28] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah. He's the Brad and Janet sort of.

[32:34] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah. Sure. Sure, sure, sure. And really quickly, just because I'm not entirely sure, does he get seduced or does he fall in love? Like what exactly happens in the London version?

[32:39] J Bailey Burcham: In the London version, it's more about like seduced is not the right word. OK, but I don't know that he like falls in love. It is sort of this like—the feeling of acceptance is a good way to put it, because it's sort of the first time that he's being allowed to really explore himself and his sexuality and just who he is. Identity becomes very much about identity and who he is and then him getting ingrained into the culture because it starts out and he's in like a jean jacket and jeans or whatever. And then by the end of Act one, he's in like silver paint and really just gender fluid and all these things. And Luke Evans carries it like a motherfucker, by the way.

[33:31] Sarah Uriarte Berry: How does that happen through in the Broadway one? What is the Billy? Is there a Billy arc? What is it?

[33:35] J Bailey Burcham: Now, this is what I actually really think is the most brave thing that they did about Broadway is they got rid of Billy altogether.

[33:40] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh, taboo on Broadway doesn't have a quote unquote normal character that becomes a new romantic. Everybody is already a freak.

[33:47] J Bailey Burcham: OK, and I love that.

[33:57] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I kind of do, too, because you don't need to add on any of those layers of judgment of someone deteriorating or someone changing who they are. All of these people already are who they are. Right. And we're just going to see them interact with each other for like the next two hours.

[34:12] J Bailey Burcham: Right. Rather than having the Sandy becoming the pink lady.

[34:17] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Exactly. It's just like, well, what if it's the pink ladies and the greasers in the show?

[34:22] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah. Yeah. Which I think is really smart for an audience that may be triggered by that sort of arc.

[34:28] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Agreed. I like that. I'm excited to watch the Broadway. So the show in New York starts with Raul Esparza and Liz McCartney, who are both fantastic performers in this. Raul is playing Philip Salon, who was a club promoter. He was the guy who was like, hey, come to this new club, come and wear your crazy costume. It's going to be fantastic. He was a real person. But once again, in this self-aware way, Philip Salon is also being the emcee from Cabaret. He is our tour guide through this essentially memory piece because he and his friend Big Su are two former members of the club scene. And when we meet them, they are coming back to what used to be taboo. The club is all run down. It isn't what it was, but they have been asked by a reporter to come here and give an interview about the good old days. So they begin to reminisce about what it was like. And then that is what gives birth to the big opening number, The Ode to Attention Seekers, this whole Vilkoman number that you mentioned earlier.

[35:45] J Bailey Burcham: Gotcha. Yeah, Philip is a character in the West End one and exists, but doesn't really fulfill that role. He sings the opening, but everyone kind of does. He's got a ringleader outfit he wears at one point, but besides that, I wouldn't call him a narrator.

[36:04] Sarah Uriarte Berry: He's not really there with us the whole time.

[36:07] J Bailey Burcham: And I probably shouldn't say narrator either, because it's never that clearly defined.

[36:12] Sarah Uriarte Berry: MC.

[36:14] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah, but you just get the feeling that at any point he could look at the audience and be like, what a load of crap this is, right? He's going to be able to comment on anything that happens throughout the show.

[36:26] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Well, that's very Brechtian.

[36:28] J Bailey Burcham: Absolutely. Once again.

[36:29] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I feel like that's staying true to the original beauty of the show. That's awesome.

[36:35] J Bailey Burcham: After the opener, we meet Boy George. Now, in one of the more brilliant pieces of casting in, I think, musical theater history, Boy George wrote Taboo, which includes a character named Boy George modeled after him. Boy George was in the show, but he did not play Boy George.

[37:00] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Everybody with me?

[37:00] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah.

[37:01] J Bailey Burcham: Boy George was played by Ewan Morton. And this performance, you guys, is absolutely sensational.

[37:10] Sarah Uriarte Berry: It's pretty phenomenal. And there's a quote where Boy George said, Ewan played Boy George better than I played Boy George.

[37:18] J Bailey Burcham: I believe it. I believe it. He is so charismatic. And you want, like, I don't care who you are and or who you're prone to fall in love with. Everybody wants to take care of this kid, you know?

[37:32] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Absolutely.

[37:33] J Bailey Burcham: And when we meet him, he is, like, in a phone booth, calling his mom for some financial help, because he's, like, in the city and doesn't have any money because he's, you know, going to clubs and stuff. It isn't a positive conversation, but it leads to him singing this song called Stranger in This World. One of the most beautiful songs I've ever heard in my life.

[37:58] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Absolutely. 100%. I want to sing it.

[38:01] J Bailey Burcham: These lyrics are just absolutely gorgeous. I'm turning my back on this life for as long as I can. Someone to make me a star because I sure as hell can't be a man.

[38:12] Sarah Uriarte Berry: That makes me want to cry.

[38:13] J Bailey Burcham: I know.

[38:14] Sarah Uriarte Berry: This song is about a boy who just doesn't feel like he fits into the world, right? Every example that he has of a man doesn't really fall in line with who he is, so I guess I'm going to become a star? It's so honest and so vulnerable and really, to me, spotlights what Boy George does so well with this score, which is find points of view that are more theatrical than you think he's going to find. This could very well have been a song about a boy being gay, but it's much more than that. It's about a boy looking for a home. It surpasses your expectations.

[39:00] J Bailey Burcham: 100%. And it spoke to me on a personal level, just as coming from Kansas, small town Kansas. When you grow up around a lot of men who are in the toxic masculinity and things like that, and you don't have someone to look up to who is comfortable in their sexuality, comfortable in taboo subjects and things like that. I don't know what Boy George's pronouns are or anything like that, but most likely—and we weren't talking about it then—but most likely a non-binary situation or even maybe trans or gender fluidity or something like that, that we didn't even know how to talk about. So of course, when you're growing up in a world like that, you don't even know how to talk about it, how else to let it out. But you become your own star, your own bright shining force, irreplaceable creative force in the world. And Boy George is definitely that. Lee Bowery was definitely that. All of these characters are that.

[40:07] Sarah Uriarte Berry: And because of that, they all have moments to share that in the show, thanks to the music.

[40:14] J Bailey Burcham: Agreed. I keep getting chills. We keep talking about this show, and it's something that I didn't think I was just like, oh yeah, that show that I kind of know about it. This will be fun to talk about. But more than anything, to me, this is the epitome of where Broadway is kind of headed anyway, or should be headed in a lot of ways. Why wouldn't we read something like this?

[40:34] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Absolutely. Completely agree.

[40:38] J Bailey Burcham: As an interesting counterpoint for where we meet Boy George, we then go, I guess, to the other side of town in London and meet this girl named Nicola. She's a huge fan of Lee Bowery.

[40:53] J Bailey Burcham: She dreams of meeting him one night. Her mom doesn't understand that at all. And she sings this kick-ass song called "Safe in the City" about how the only place she belongs is in the city. Once again, when you're a little different, you need somewhere where you feel at home. And for some reason, it's always the city. I look forward to the time when it's not that, where we can stay in our small towns and feel that connection and feel that acceptance. And I think we are maybe getting closer than ever. But specifically at this time, a true representation of that kind of angst and desire for belonging. Now, it's always a treat to have guests on the show that have a lot of experience in the musical theatre art form.

But it's an even bigger treat to have someone like that who was also part of the creation of the show we're actually talking about. And that's what's happening right now. Everyone, please welcome to the podcast, Sarah Uriarte Berry. Please tell me I said your name right.

[41:54] Sarah Uriarte Berry: You did. Well, you did. You did the Anglicized version. It's actually Sarah Uriarte Berry, but I'm not gonna hold that against you. I look as about as Anglo as you get over here. Now, Miss Sarah, I have had a big old talent crush on you since "Light in the Piazza."

[42:15] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh, you played the fiery sister-in-law Franca. And I remember you walked out. And I was like, who is that? I want to know her story. What's going on? You were just absolutely fantastic in that show.

[42:28] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Thank you. I loved that show. Um, how high was that note that you sang in "A Utami"?

[42:34] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yes, that would be an F, an F above high C. Ridiculous. Yeah. Insane. Yeah. And what's crazy is that if that wasn't rangy enough for like one career, you've also played a Disney princess, you were Belle. And then you also played the character Nicola in "Taboo," which happens to be this like badass performance artist woman belting incredibly high, belting as high as she can.

[43:02] Sarah Uriarte Berry: That was a G actually, they made me belt a G.

[43:10] J Bailey Burcham: Oh my gosh, girl. Good for you. You never know what you can do until you try.

[43:13] Sarah Uriarte Berry: You're like, don't even show me the keyboard. I'll just keep singing.

[43:17] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yes. And then you tell me later at what I did.

[43:22] J Bailey Burcham: Exactly. At what point in your career did "Taboo" come around? Can you take me back then? What was happening?

[43:30] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Interesting. The first audition I had for the show, um, it must have been sometime in 2002. I don't remember exactly when, but I, they said, oh, there's a, there's a show. Boy George wrote the music. It's very grungy, very cool. And I, I didn't know anything about it. I learned the song "Elodore." I auditioned. I had, I think I had one little scene and then I never really heard anything. I think maybe it was the show was put on hold. I don't know what happened, but a lot of time went by and I didn't have a big Broadway show coming down the pike. I was just cast in the Sondheim celebration at the Kennedy Center. And which was very, very exciting. I got to work with Steven Sondheim and all these brilliant people.

Good old Steve. He's my friend. No, but that was, it was great, but I didn't really have a big project. So I was married and I said to my husband, may as well try to get pregnant because I don't have anything lined up and I know I want to start a family. So let's just do this. Let's get it on. So during the Sondheim celebration, I became pregnant. I didn't know, I didn't really know at the time, but, but that's when it happened. And so then nine months later, I got a call back for "Taboo" all of a sudden. I thought, oh wait, wait, what show was that? Oh my God. And they said, yeah, another lifetime ago. And they said, now you'll remember this is for the role of Nicola and she's a club waif. So she's very, very skinny. And she, she does the club scene, heroin chic and she's really cool. And I'm like, oh my God. So they said, your callback is on May 15th. And my baby was due May 17th.

[45:18] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Get out of here. Stop it. No, I'm not joking. So I was rather large and, and for this club, wait, I'm like, what am I going to do? What am I going to do? And it was for the director and, and Rosie O'Donnell, and John McDaniel was the music director. George was not there. So I said to my husband, what am I, do I just not go? He said, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're going to be the pregnant club waif. You're going to be the girl who got knocked up at the club. So I wore this tiny, tiny top that it was like a crop top. So I had, and I pulled my, I had these drawstring pants and I, I was barefoot because my feet were huge. I couldn't wear shoes. So I was barefoot and I had my, this massive, massive belly. And then I wore really thick, garish, crazy makeup. And I wore ponytails coming out of my head and, and it worked. And they said, this is fantastic. I'm obsessed.

[46:15] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah. They're like, you have to have one more callback though, because George has final approval and he's flying in from London. I said, well, okay, I'm due in two days. We'll just see what happens. So of course, then I went into labor and I had my baby at home. I had my baby at home because I'm, I'm crazy that way. So anyway, they said your callback is on May, let me see, 7, 8, 9, on May 21st, which was four days after giving birth. So I, I went, I don't know how I went and they, George was there. He kept saying, I can't believe you're here. I can't believe you're here. And I, he said, please don't sing. Just do the scene, but don't sing. I don't want your uterus to fall out. I was like, okay.

So I did not sing. I just did the scene where he, I think he just wanted to see who I was. And, um, and I also brought a picture of myself in a bikini from days of yours. I'm like, this is what it could look like with diet and exercise. And, and then they, they cast me. So there you go.

[47:20] J Bailey Burcham: Oh, that is the best audition story I've ever heard. My gosh. Talk about butterflies. So then do you want me to, should I keep going?

[47:30] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yes, please. Please. I'm I'm in.

[47:33] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Okay. So now, so now we have this baby and they said, all right. And I, I was told initially, so I had her in May and they said, oh, we're going to start probably start rehearsals sometime in September. But then right after I had her, I was told we have to do a six week workshop for the designers, which I, I hadn't known. So when she was about six weeks old, we all went to New York City to the 42nd Street studios. And I mean, she was six weeks old. It's my first baby. And they said, we're doing this designer workshop. You have to be there. So, and I, I panicked and Rosie was amazing. She said, do not panic. We are not surprised that there is a baby. We all knew you were having the baby. It's not, this isn't shocking.

What do you, what do you need? And I said, well, I have to nurse. I have to nurse my baby. What am I going to do? She said, you will have a room that we will rent for you. And you can have a nanny and you can have the nanny there 24 hours a day. And anytime she's like, I don't care what scene you're doing. If you're in the middle of your song, you can quit and say, I'm leaving. I'm going to go nurse. And I don't care. And you nurse for 45 minutes. You can nurse for an hour. It doesn't matter because we all, she's like, nobody, nobody is shocked this. We love you. We support you. We want you in the role. So it was amazing. Yep. So I had a little nursery room. I had a nanny, my husband and the nanny took turns.

I brought the baby. She was our little mascot. She was there like all the time. I would wear her on my chest sometimes while we were rehearsing scenes and it was the most supportive environment. I couldn't believe it.

[49:14] Sarah Uriarte Berry: But the scary thing that happened during that time is they informed me two things that I didn't know. One, that there was a scene where I would be wearing a nude body stocking and I would be birthed out of George's butt. And I said, oh no, no, no, no. I just, I just had a baby. This is not okay. And they're like, well, you're going to be wearing a nude body stocking with crystals covering the private areas. I started crying. I'm like, what am I going to do? I'm not in shape and like, it's going to be fine. So that was terrifying. And then the other thing that, that terrified me was when I had auditioned, they'd given me the song "Elador," which is just like "On My Own," a little more sad, but it's similar, like a similar vibe, um, very similar, uh, vocal range at the workshop.

They said, oh, there's another song. I'm like, oh, how exciting. I get two songs. They said, yes, this is a funk, like a funk pop song with lots of riffing. I'm like, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And they played the song "Safe in the City." And I went into a panic and this is, yeah, I'm like, la, la, la, la, what am I going to do? And this is sort of one of your other questions about like working with George. Um, but he, I will, I'll just go into this now. He, he was so sweet. He took me in the hallway. I was sitting, actually in the hallway crying softly by myself when I found out I had to do this song. Cause I thought they're going to fire me. Cause I don't, I don't do this. And he sat down and he's like, it's going to be fine.

You just fall off of all the notes. I'm like, what? He said, any time, any phrase you sing, just go, huh? And just fall off the note at the end. That's all it is. That's the difference between pop singing and musical theater singing with musical theater. You finish the note with pop, you fall off the note. You're going to be fine. And I was like, oh, okay. And he's like, yep. We love you. Bye. So yeah. Wow. Yeah. He was really cool.

[51:17] J Bailey Burcham: Okay. So you're in the show. How much did you know about Lee Bowery, Nicola, his wife, kind of this whole scene?

[51:23] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah. Um, so I knew nothing of Lee Bowery. I knew so much of Boy George and other parts about music because I mean, I will age myself. It's just fine. I was in high school in the eighties when Boy George and Madonna and Cyndi Lauper and Duran Duran and all these fabulous groups were huge. That's exactly when I was watching MTV and listening to music and trying to look like them and dress like them. And it was very interesting. You know, the boys in my high school had the Duran Duran hair and there were boys who dressed exactly like Boy George and there were girls who dressed like Boy George.

[52:05] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh, that's so cool.

[52:05] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh yeah. So when I went in, I was really, really excited that I got to work with this man. And Nicola, I met the real Nicola.

[52:14] Sarah Uriarte Berry: You did not really?

[52:18] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Well, so the real Nicola's sister, Christine was our hair and makeup designer. And she was in the theater with us every single day because she did George's makeup for the show every single day. So we saw, I was with Christine all the time and she's sweet and lovely. I really, really liked her. Nicola came for the opening and she is just fascinating and she was dressed just as fabulously as you would expect, but she's rather shy and rather reserved. I mean, I suppose she was a wild, crazy cat back in the day, but really interesting. One of the things I walk away from with this show is that so many of these crazy avant-garde taboo people, if you will, are actually quite sensitive humans. The waters run deep, right?

[53:13] J Bailey Burcham: And Boy George, I feel like really created a score in which each character gets an opportunity to reveal that to the audience. Isn't that sort of the way like the really, really funny, funny, funny comedians in real life come off as rather dark and serious?

[53:30] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yes. And these flamboyant, colorful, wild artists in real life, you do get to know their sensitive, deep side. One of the challenges with working with George was that with a lot of our scene work, he'd never acted before. He was only a singer. He's only a superstar, but he had not done scenes. So for some of the scenes, he would address the audience and he would talk to people.

[54:09] Sarah Uriarte Berry: And I, as Nicola, had no choice but to try to convince Lee to step back into the scene. Like, come back, Lee. Come back into the show. As I was saying, it was rather hilarious. And Charles Bush, who helped with the book, he was

[54:31] Sarah Uriarte Berry: My darling, after this experience, you could just act your way out of a trunk, couldn't you? Because it's just like this constant improvisation. But it's interesting, so much of who George was, he really was able to connect and pour it into this Lee Bowery character. So at that moment in the hospital scene, when he passes, I could just look right at him and really imagine the devastation of losing this beautiful, beautiful artist, whether it's Lee or George. I could just look at this guy and think, Oh my God, I mean, just completely in there. And the thought of him being gone, he was really good at playing dead. It sent me right into that moment and the devastation. It's so funny. We were traveling yesterday, my family and I. We went to see my husband's family and we were in a bookstore.

And I picked up this book. I think it was Queer Folk and Their Cats. What a funny title. I'm looking through it and Lee Bowery was in there. It was really cool. So if anybody's interested in queer people and their cats, you can read about Lee Bowery. They're all in there.

[56:06] J Bailey Burcham: Now, looking back on it, because you've had some time since this all went down, is there one overriding feeling that you have when thinking about Taboo? Because I know it's complex.

[56:14] Sarah Uriarte Berry: It's complicated and complex. I think Taboo did a really great job capturing the feeling of that crazy, indulgent, wild time and that wild scene. And that is how it felt to be in the show. The story that was being told from Days of Yore really was alive and thriving on the stage as it was being told. That whole experience was packed with so many different types of people from different walks of life and different parts of the artistic community. And I really do feel like I was sort of a visitor. I was a visitor to this world and it was an education for me. I was brought up very... Actually, I was not brought up in a normal fashion at all, but I was brought up in a world where girls were girls and boys were boys.

And I feel like this show sort of challenged the audience in a way and challenged us as performers, and especially me, to sort of think beyond quote-unquote normal. So I really do think of it as this beautiful, educational, joyous ride. And there was something that you'd said when you wrote to me about some of the negative press, and I will say I was... Yeah, there was some gossip and blah, blah, blah. And it made me so sad, especially being in it, because the things that were reported in... I think it was a post. Some man...

[58:03] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah, they loved you guys, man.

[58:05] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh, yes. And it made me so sad because we loved it. I don't know. It was...

[58:13] J Bailey Burcham: That's cool.

[58:13] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah, the music was awesome, and it felt like a party. And we had... The people who would come, our audience members, we had these regulars. And there was one person who dressed as a clown and held a little tiny, tiny umbrella. And they would always buy this one seat, about six rows back. And we're like, oh, there's a little clown umbrella, man. And I mean, there were people that would dress and drag. It was so fun. It was really... It was amazing.

[58:38] J Bailey Burcham: Well, that's incredible. Sarah, thank you so much for doing this. This has been more than I ever dreamed.

[58:45] Sarah Uriarte Berry: You're welcome.

[58:48] J Bailey Burcham: The perspective that you have brought to this is so cool. And how old is your baby now that you had during Taboo?

[58:55] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh, my gosh. She just turned 18. Well, not just. She turned 18 in May. And my husband and I, we have two other little... We have twin boys who are 11, so we're not empty nesters yet. But my husband and I just flew her out to NYU. She started this fall at Tisch. She's not going to be in musical theater. We've trained her well. We're like, don't you dare. Don't you dare. She says she wants to be a film director, which is really great job security.

[59:29] J Bailey Burcham: I mean, trade one for the other, I suppose.

[59:32] Sarah Uriarte Berry: At least she'll be in charge.

[59:35] J Bailey Burcham: Amen.

[59:36] Sarah Uriarte Berry: That's so great. Congratulations on that. And congratulations to her. And thank you again for doing this.

[59:43] J Bailey Burcham: Thank you for being part of the history of musical theater with this pioneering show.

[59:48] Sarah Uriarte Berry: My pleasure.

[59:50] J Bailey Burcham: Okay, so Nicola shows up to the nightclub, hoping to meet Lee Bowery. She runs into Big Sue, who we met at the top of the show, who decides that she's going to introduce her. She's elated. That kind of pushes Big Sue out of the picture, which becomes a point of contention for the friends. Also at this club is Boy George, who works there now. I think he's like a host or works the coat check or something like that. He has a friend, Marilyn, who is like just this total punk kid. He likes to dress like Marilyn Monroe, but face like a brick sort of thing.

[1:00:30] Sarah Uriarte Berry: And apparently based on a true person.

[1:00:31] J Bailey Burcham: Yes, absolutely.

[1:00:32] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah. Okay. Okay. I didn't know about Marilyn, but I was reading about them and I was like, that's interesting.

[1:00:38] J Bailey Burcham: And then we go to the bathroom at the club and we meet this strange creature named Lee Bowery.

[1:00:45] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yes.

[1:00:47] J Bailey Burcham: He sings this song called I'll Have You All at the urinal. And so I'll pay you 10 bucks if you can tell me what he's singing about.

[1:00:59] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah, because it's him and all in the men's chorus.

[1:01:01] J Bailey Burcham: Exactly. Exactly. Who are all lined up at the urinal. Now I am excited to watch the Broadway one now to really see that because also the book gets rewritten by a playwright that I'm kind of familiar with, Charles Bush, who is also a drag performer. But Charles Bush did, is it Vampire Lesbians?

[1:01:26] Sarah Uriarte Berry: He did Die Mommy Die, I think.

[1:01:29] J Bailey Burcham: Die Mommy Die. Yes, of course. And then there's one, it's like Vampire Lesbians of Sodom or something.

[1:01:34] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh, wow.

[1:01:35] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah, I think it's the name of it.

[1:01:36] Sarah Uriarte Berry: That's just all the words.

[1:01:38] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah, exactly. I've seen a lot of like student produced posters for that, right? Like people are like, oh, I'm going to do this one because of the name. And apparently people like it. It's very crude and camp.

[1:01:49] Sarah Uriarte Berry: It's so campy. And really, that's what he brings to the show is there are these personalities who sit next to each other on stage and like hurl insults back and forth at each other and everybody laughs. And that's kind of all it has to be. Could they have gone more traditional with it? Yes. But like who wants to see a show about non-traditional people told traditionally? And I don't know. I'm not so sure it's worth it.

[1:02:14] J Bailey Burcham: After the club one night, George, a.k.a. Boy George, meets this guy named Marcus, who believes he himself to be straight. And Philip and Sue, not Philip-a-Sue, but Philip and Sue are kind of above on this catwalk watching this go down. And they're like, oh, boy, what's going to happen here? And they sing the song called Sexual Confusion. But it's funny and not too serious. They're kind of just saying, it's just sex, essentially.

[1:02:47] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right. And there's no Marcus in the West End either. All of these like sort of tertiary characters, Nicola, Marcus, these are new things that I think were just like ensemble parts maybe on the West End that they were like, well, what if we made this character a little more of something? It ends up turning into this interesting mirroring where Marcus and George fall in love and then Nicola and Lee fall in love. Both of which are these really non-traditional couples with sexualities that don't necessarily match the relationship that they're in, but they're like, love's a question mark, you know?

[1:03:27] J Bailey Burcham: I already said this, but I'm weirdly obsessed with that song. It's a really weird song. I think everyone should go listen to it. It's, yeah, it's interesting.

[1:03:34] Sarah Uriarte Berry: One hundred percent. Now we kind of get into a little bit more of a biographical look at Boy George's career. He gets a recording contract. He records, Do You Really Want to Hurt Me? and starts becoming really famous. Lee doesn't love that because it seems like he's selling out. Right. It's kind of anti-mainstream.

[1:03:59] J Bailey Burcham: Sure. And so Act One ends with Karma Chameleon on one end and Lee announcing that he's opening a new nightclub called Taboo on the other end. Kind of these two different results of the romantic era. Right. The new romantics.

[1:04:20] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Am I missing any songs that you want to highlight in Act One?

[1:04:24] J Bailey Burcham: Genocide Peroxide is fun. From Marilyn.

[1:04:28] Sarah Uriarte Berry: That's Marilyn. Absolutely. Really hard rock too. Like these are not songs masquerading as rock songs, but they're actually just musical theater.

[1:04:37] J Bailey Burcham: They're legit. No, this is a song that if was played at a live venue, I would be banging my head and wouldn't think twice about it. Genocide Peroxide's great. I've listened to that a bunch. Love Is a Question Mark, we already talked about. In the first act, those are sort of the ones that really stand out to me. There's a few others that I really love lyrically, but that I don't go back to necessarily.

[1:04:58] Sarah Uriarte Berry: There's that beautiful song that George sings about wearing too much makeup.

[1:05:03] J Bailey Burcham: Pretty Lies.

[1:05:05] Sarah Uriarte Berry: That's a good one. Yeah.

[1:05:06] J Bailey Burcham: Which is another really vulnerable moment about this. Because we all know that they're dressing up. There's nothing natural about their look. He knows it. He's kind of looking in the mirror, trying to take off the makeup and complaining that he can never actually take it all off, which is both true from a metaphoric standpoint and also from just literally, I can't scrub all of this eyeliner off my face. You know?

[1:05:32] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right. Exactly. And there's also an interesting side to like, you know, my identity is ingrained in this and how I have to present myself to feel comfortable in my own skin. It's not about the fantasy. It's about the inner world. This is who I am, right?

[1:05:50] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah. That's beautiful. All right. Act two opens with Everything Taboo, which is a great... I mean, that's a great act two opener.

[1:05:57] Sarah Uriarte Berry: It is. Introducing us to this huge club that now is a big hit because of Lee Bowery. All of the regulars are there. Marcus and George have broke up because George has kind of gone further and further into this drug culture, which always comes along with fame, especially during this time period. And let's be honest, boy, George really has struggled most of his career with staying out of the limelight in terms of being arrested, having drug problems. And I think that they're touching on that here. I don't even know if Marcus and George were really together in real life or if this is just kind of an opportunity to tell a story like the one he had. There is so much of the show because of the self-awareness that I'm not really sure we're supposed to take literally, but there you have it.

If you're confused, I guess nobody cares. So Marcus does try to get George to get some help. He refuses. And so Marcus goes and tells the police on him, or actually, no, he tells the paparazzi on him and says that he's like a junkie. And then that leads to his arrest and then ultimately to him getting clean. So Marcus is looking at that as a last resort. He was played by this guy who sounds almost identically to Adam Pascal. And he has this really great song in the second act. I can't remember what it's called.

[1:07:31] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I See Through You.

[1:07:39] J Bailey Burcham: Oh, okay. Who sings that?

[1:07:39] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh, Billy. That's a Billy song. Yeah. Billy's got a lot of, yeah. I mean, he kind of is the focal point, especially the first act, not so much in the second act though.

[1:07:46] J Bailey Burcham: Gotcha.

[1:07:51] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah. Sue has become a little estranged from Lee because of his relationship with Nicola, but she shows up to the hospital because he has tested positive for HIV and is there receiving treatments. Sue tries to talk to him about it, but he refuses to, which I really love.

[1:08:09] J Bailey Burcham: Because even for Lee Bowery, there are things that are taboo, you know?

[1:08:14] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I didn't think of it like that. That's great. Good take.

[1:08:18] J Bailey Burcham: Hey, thanks. So, Lee gets angry and basically ends his friendship with her. She sings this amazing song called "Talk Amongst Yourselves" about how her life is empty without these friendships. I think especially knowing that not only is this friendship going to end, but his life is going to end as well. Marilyn is completely jealous that George is having so much fame, so their relationship is fractured. Everything's falling apart. And I think now this leads us to "Ich Bin Kunst."

[1:08:50] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah, that might be my favorite song in the show.

[1:08:55] J Bailey Burcham: And why do you like it so much?

[1:08:58] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Because as a kid, it was just a song, you know? And it was just sort of like, oh yeah, and then that song. Maybe I skipped it or whatever when I would listen to the soundtrack. But now knowing what I know about Lee and about the time.

[1:09:11] J Bailey Burcham: That he's dying from AIDS.

[1:09:12] Sarah Uriarte Berry: He's dying from AIDS. And it's like you're saying, it's an inner monologue. It's an inner working out of those feelings. And I now have a totally different love for it. And like you said, is it "I Am Art"?

[1:09:30] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah, "Ich Bin Kunst" is "I Am Art," depending on where you're from in Germany. But he's essentially saying, I am a living work of art. And when you look at what Lee Bowery did, one of his most famous looks, and I say that L-E-W-K-S, was he was completely painted and then he had polka dots everywhere. And that was actually a commentary on the lesions that you would get as someone with AIDS. So he is wholeheartedly saying, I am going through this and I am turning it into art.

[1:10:08] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right.

[1:10:09] J Bailey Burcham: And because it's Boy Georgian, he has this way of performing the show like he doesn't really care that much. It somehow makes it even more beautiful to me.

[1:10:20] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah, sure.

[1:10:22] J Bailey Burcham: I'm sure a different actor would have a completely different take and it would be equally impressive. But I love the kind of fleeting nature that he looks at his life with. It's interesting and effective.

[1:10:35] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I love that.

[1:10:37] J Bailey Burcham: Philip, aka Raoul, runs into Marcus, straight boy Marcus on the street and basically tells him how disgusted he is that he told on George. And Marcus tries to explain his point of view about trying to get him help. But before he can, Marcus's straight friends jump in and like full on gay bash Philip. And so Philip is left there alone and bruised and bloodied. And he sings the song called "Petrified."

[1:11:10] Sarah Uriarte Berry: "Petrified."

[1:11:11] J Bailey Burcham: Which is another song that I feel like really surprises me with the amount of poetry.

[1:11:17] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yes.

[1:11:18] J Bailey Burcham: A lesser musical theater song would say, how dare you beat me up? Why can't love be love? Why can't you accept me? And instead, there's this sense of curiosity that Philip sings about. He says, are you scared? What's going on with you?

[1:11:39] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah.

[1:11:40] J Bailey Burcham: And it's so much more empowering in a way that other shows, "Bear" comes to mind, for example.

[1:11:47] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Absolutely.

[1:11:49] J Bailey Burcham: Which is equally empathic and you get all of the emotions from seeing that show, but it's less victimized. It's much more empowering.

[1:11:58] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I agree. And I think I'm falling more in love with that kind of musical theater and being more poetic, being more lyrical, being more theatrical in the way that you tell a story because things like "Taboo" give us permission to do that. I now have permission to do anything I want with storytelling. And like we said before, especially if your subject matter is not quote-unquote normal, why would you tell a story quote-unquote normally?

[1:12:28] J Bailey Burcham: Yes.

[1:12:29] Sarah Uriarte Berry: You know? And "Taboo" just gives us the permission to go beyond the basic proscenium staging of musicals that we're used to.

[1:12:40] J Bailey Burcham: And is it messy? Yeah.

[1:12:41] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah.

[1:12:42] J Bailey Burcham: But the characters are messy. So all of the drama, the interpersonal drama makes that clear. When it comes time for Lee to finally die, Nicola brings Sue to his bedside and they bury the hatchet. After she's gone, Nicola sings "Il Adore," which you can't listen to that song and not get the chills.

[1:13:09] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Absolutely.

[1:13:10] J Bailey Burcham: My gosh.

[1:13:11] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Oh, it's beautiful. And I'm so excited about this Broadway version. I might watch it right after.

[1:13:20] J Bailey Burcham: I hope I'm not building it up too much because it's a total circus. And it's also 2002. So I would say the art form has come even further in terms of our storytelling and what we would do now is probably different from then, but still.

[1:13:35] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right.

[1:13:36] J Bailey Burcham: And by the way, "Il Adore," meaning he loves. You know, here's this woman who agreed to marry this gay man who knows that he is dying because he has sex with other men. But what's most important to her is that he loves people.

[1:13:53] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right.

[1:13:55] J Bailey Burcham: It's so good. Why doesn't this have more of a cult following?

[1:14:00] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right.

[1:14:01] J Bailey Burcham: That was the other thing is that as I looked it up, it's not like there's a bunch of people trying to get this thing made. It doesn't get produced at community theaters. It doesn't get produced at colleges. It's not even licensed. You can't even get it. Not to mention, don't go to Spotify to listen to this cast album, everybody.

[1:14:18] Sarah Uriarte Berry: No.

[1:14:18] J Bailey Burcham: It is a complete.

[1:14:20] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Clusterfuck.

[1:14:21] J Bailey Burcham: Yes. Thank you for saying it so I didn't have to. All of the names are all wrong. It's the London cast names. All of the numbers are out of order. "Ode to the Freaks" is both track one and track three. So "Safe in the City" isn't even in there.

[1:14:38] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Right.

[1:14:38] J Bailey Burcham: Then everything else is named incorrectly. At one point, you play a song and it's the reprise of "I Enjoy Being a Girl" from the revival of "Flower Drum Song." I don't understand what's going on with Spotify.

[1:14:52] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I didn't know that.

[1:14:54] J Bailey Burcham: It's absolutely ridiculous. That alone tells me how many people are pounding on "Taboo's" door. Spotify can't even get the freaking track listing right.

[1:15:05] Sarah Uriarte Berry: No, absolutely. Just go to YouTube. Just go to YouTube and listen to it because there's a few different playlists. They have the West End. They have the 2012 London revival. They have the Broadway. Anything you want to listen to, it's all there, which is how I listened to it because I was like, well.

[1:15:21] J Bailey Burcham: Gotcha.

[1:15:22] Sarah Uriarte Berry: The Spotify crap is...

[1:15:24] J Bailey Burcham: Incorrect.

[1:15:24] Sarah Uriarte Berry: It's incorrect.

[1:15:26] J Bailey Burcham: Yes.

[1:15:27] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Okay, so now we can just fast forward and we're back to modern day. Philip and Big Sue are back at the club. Lee Bowery died and so did "Taboo." So they're waiting for this interviewer to come. The interviewer comes. Turns out it's actually Marcus. Oh, straight boy Marcus.

[1:15:49] J Bailey Burcham: Okay.

[1:15:50] Sarah Uriarte Berry: And then George comes and Nicola comes. And so it's like this mini reunion that he has orchestrated to finally have the opportunity to tell George why he told the press about his drug problem. And everybody kind of has this cathartic moment to recognize what they had done together and reconnect. Then they sing this gospel-y song called "Come On In from the Outside," which is really fun. And that's how it ends. And then they all get into a group and it's like, no day but today.

[1:16:23] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah, exactly.

[1:16:24] Sarah Uriarte Berry: And then the lights go down. In the Western version, they sing the final song and then they all stand in front. No day but today moment, but they sing "Karma Chameleon" again.

[1:16:35] J Bailey Burcham: Oh my gosh. And that's when you're sobbing.

[1:16:38] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah, I was just bawling. I don't know what it was. And they're not even, you know, they're just kind of standing there and the whole audience is singing with them and they're all kind of just like back and forth. And I was just, I don't know what it was. Something came over me and I was just like, oh yeah, theater. I mean, part of it might be just that I haven't, I mean, I've seen a couple shows masked recently, but like, not like this, not something that really took me back to the theater, you know, and I'm really ready for it. So I think part of it was that, but that's cool. Part of it is just what it is.

[1:17:11] J Bailey Burcham: And it really spoke to me on a lot of levels. I didn't think it would. It spoke to me as an artist, but also just like as a consumer, like I don't, I didn't, I didn't know I needed this as much as I think I did, you know, put it on the billboard.

[1:17:29] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I didn't think, I didn't think I needed this, but I did.

[1:17:35] J Bailey Burcham: I love that. I love that. That's actually my favorite kind of theater. And I wonder if one of the reasons I like this so much is because I had zero expectations, you know, boy, boy, oh boy, George, do expectations kill happiness. The quote from the script that I did hear on the bootleg that I want to leave here, because I think it's probably one of the most important things that they say it's from Philip and he says, cultivate whatever it is that people condemn you for. Because that's what's truly original. And if that's not the most Lee Bowery thing of it all.

[1:18:09] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah. Right.

[1:18:10] J Bailey Burcham: Yeah. I love that.

[1:18:16] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Thank you so much for doing this with me.

[1:18:22] J Bailey Burcham: Thank you. I hope we've inspired some people because I think it's a show worth revisiting period.

[1:18:26] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I think so too. I want people to go watch it. I want people to go listen to it. I want people to understand sort of, because the other thing is now we have more shows like this, not even thematically like "Kinky Boots" and stuff, but shows that are playing with form and playing with how we watch theater, you know, and this is very that and I, it deserves, it deserves its spotlight.

[1:18:46] J Bailey Burcham: Agreed. As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on "A Musical Theatre Podcast," you can always email me at amusicalpodcast@gmail.com. Don't forget to follow us on Twitter and Instagram at amusicalpodcast. Be sure to subscribe and leave us a nice review because that always helps the show a lot. And if you want to help even more subscribe to Patreon! Where for only $1 a month, you guys, it's only $1 a month. You gain access to bonus episodes like Act Three with Sarah Uriarte Berry that comes out today with this episode. You'll hear a further conversation with that delightful individual.

[1:19:29] J Bailey Burcham: Hey, Sarah Uriarte Berry, how do we follow you and everything you're up to?

[1:19:29] Sarah Uriarte Berry: You can follow me on Instagram at j.bailey.b, Bailey spelled like the Irish cream, B-A-I-L-E-Y. And I also have a podcast that is called "Theater Theater Pod." The first theater is the R-E spelling, the second is E-R.

[1:19:46] J Bailey Burcham: I love that.

[1:19:46] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Yeah, I've decided to because I feel like there's a lot of debate on which one to use. And I know people in England use R-E only. People in America, journalists have decided that it's E-R.

[1:20:00] J Bailey Burcham: Have they really?

[1:20:06] Sarah Uriarte Berry: They have. Oh, I feel I don't feel represented at all. All critics use E-R because they don't want to look, they don't all want to spell it differently. So they've all consensus. It's E-R. I've decided R-E is the art form. E-R is the place.

[1:20:18] J Bailey Burcham: Yes. Yes. I completely agree. Thank you. Okay. So I think we need to spread that. We need to disseminate that idea. No, R-E is the art form.

[1:20:25] Sarah Uriarte Berry: That's right. Don't shove your E-R down my throat.

[1:20:32] J Bailey Burcham: That's exactly right. Yeah. And, you know, the podcast "Theater Theater," we talk about playwrights. We do many series on playwrights. We just finished our Ibsen. We're about to do David Henry Hwang, who did like "M. Butterfly" and things like that. Speaking of "Flower Drum Song," we've done Sarah Kane, Carole Churchill, Susan Laurie Parks, Tennessee Williams. Yeah, I think we're on like episode 73 or something like that. But we also do bonus episodes on movie musicals and we just nerd out and have a lot of fun. We've got to have you on, Jeff.

[1:21:06] Sarah Uriarte Berry: I would love to, please. We've got to have you on. We'll make that happen in season three, but follow it. We'd appreciate all the love.

[1:21:18] J Bailey Burcham: Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Thank you again. What a pleasure. Thank you everyone for listening. And as always, keep it taboo.

[1:21:27] Sarah Uriarte Berry: Keep it taboo.