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[0:00] Madison Claire Parks: And so then when did your mom do The Fantasticks?

[0:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So she did it...

[0:04] Madison Claire Parks: In its like original run that lasted for ever and a day?

[0:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, at Sullivan Street, and my mom was the 25th anniversary Louisa.

[0:11] Madison Claire Parks: Oh wow, how cool.

[0:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it was filmed for Lincoln Center.

[0:14] Madison Claire Parks: No way, I didn't know that.

[0:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So I've gotten to like see my mom do it, which is really cool.

[0:19] Madison Claire Parks: How cute is that?

[0:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And so she was the 25th anniversary, and then the show closed in '99, and then the quote-unquote revival opened up in 2006 at what was the Snapple, or the Jerry Orbach Theatre on 50th.

[0:25] Madison Claire Parks: The Snapple.

[0:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The Snapple. I was there when the Snapple got ripped off the side of the wall.

[0:37] Madison Claire Parks: Like Snapple like took their funding from the theatre, and like the whole Snapple came off the side of the building. Like it was very dramatic.

[0:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh drama. Drama in corporate America.

[0:47] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, so I came in and I was the 56th anniversary Louisa.

[0:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How cute.

[0:52] Madison Claire Parks: About 30 years apart.

[0:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome everybody to a musical theatre podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history.

[1:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff.

[1:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Today we are talking about The Fantasticks with someone who is a beautiful ingenue who can sing anything. She's also funny and a strong mover. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Madison Claire Parks.

[1:29] Madison Claire Parks: Why thank you. The strong mover is very kind of you. That's pushing it a little bit, but thank you.

[1:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh come on. Didn't we dance together in a dance call?

[1:38] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, are you ready for this? Was it Holiday Inn?

[1:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think so.

[1:43] Madison Claire Parks: Yes, we did. I can't tap. I've never tapped in my entire life, and suddenly it was final callbacks, and they're like, five, six, seven, eight, and I was like, oh my god, I don't tap, and no one bothered to pay attention to that, and I think I've never faked my way through a dance call like that.

[2:01] Madison Claire Parks: I was like, Maddie, just stop when everybody stops and get the arms right.

[2:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Sell it, face. Sell it up here.

[2:07] Madison Claire Parks: I was like, I'm going to smile and I'm going to, you know, give them the hands. Don't look below the waist. A full tap call. I was like, this is my nightmare.

[2:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bravo. Truly, truly, bravo.

[2:19] Madison Claire Parks: The last time I saw you.

[2:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know.

[2:21] Madison Claire Parks: And I didn't get to see you in that, too, which I heard you were, you know, beautiful and flawless and tapped your face off.

[2:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you. I kept telling people about Holiday Inn, it's all the singing, all the dancing, none of the racism.

[2:39] Madison Claire Parks: And we need more of that right now.

[2:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: More of that, please.

[2:42] Madison Claire Parks: Oh yeah.

[2:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, I'm so grateful that you are on this episode. Not only do you have this amazing connection to The Fantasticks, but you're also just kind of a fascinating human in general because you come from, like, this crazy showbiz family.

[2:56] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, everyone. I mean, truly everyone in my family is in the business in some way, shape or form.

[3:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, so let's start with Grandma.

[3:06] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. Grandma, musical theater, film, TV, Broadway actress, Betty Garrett.

[3:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Icon, Betty Garrett, people.

[3:15] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, isn't that cool? I still think it's cool.

[3:17] Madison Claire Parks: On the town, my sister Eileen. I was researching her, knowing that we were going to be talking, and I didn't, like, she came up at that perfect time where all of her teachers were, like, the teachers. Meisner, Martha Graham, like, just everybody.

[3:34] Madison Claire Parks: I mean, like, name after name. It's kind of insane. She was right at that peak when that was all starting in New York. She had lived a fascinating, long, cool life.

[3:45] Madison Claire Parks: I'm recording in the house that I grew up with her because this was her old house, and I'm very lucky I got to live with her for most of my childhood and be here and play dress up and her old costumes and things like that here.

[3:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, that's so cool.

[4:00] Madison Claire Parks: So it's very full circle, too. So yeah, that's Grandma.

[4:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then Gramps.

[4:05] Madison Claire Parks: Yes, Grandpa, who I never got to meet.

[4:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, really? I didn't know that.

[4:09] Madison Claire Parks: He passed away before I was born, but my grandfather is Larry Parks.

[4:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oscar nominee.

[4:17] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, Oscar nominee for a problematic movie.

[4:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I was going to say, I haven't seen the Al Jolson story in which he played Al Jolson.

[4:26] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, so it's a biopic about Al Jolson and Jolson's life. Very interesting and a legend vocally and that, but grew up in Vaudeville in blackface, which is absolutely horrifying and doesn't need to be... I've had people reach out, which is a very weird thing, going like, why won't they play the Jolson story? I'm like, why do you think? We don't need to perpetuate that. Are you kidding me? No, that's okay. Trust me, I'm directly related. I'm not worried about it as far as like, oh, it's not getting airtime. It got plenty of airtime and did its damage then. I am very happy with the work that my grandfather did as an actor, and that is all that it needs to be, I think.

[5:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Preach Matty Parks.

[5:10] Madison Claire Parks: I just think it had its time and place and probably shouldn't have even had its time and place, but he was wonderful. My grandfather himself, my dad and my uncle look so much like him.

[5:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Good looking fella.

[5:24] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, very striking. Really thick black hair, which I don't know where that went in the family.

[5:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Blondie.

[5:34] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. Well, it's a little fake, just a little bit.

[5:39] Madison Claire Parks: I'm an ingenue on paper, guys.

[5:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Not from the roots. So yeah, that was my grandfather. He was also a big prankster too, and loved what he did, loved acting, and that's from my grandma and grandfather, really loving it. That sort of got ingrained in all of my family, and now what I do and what I am lucky to do, I think partially because of them.

[6:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's beautiful.

[6:04] Madison Claire Parks: Let's go to mom now.

[6:06] Madison Claire Parks: Yes, mom. People often think that my mom is my grandma's daughter, but it's...

[6:12] Madison Claire Parks: So my grandma, Betty and Grandpa Larry are my dad's parents, and my dad is musician and composer Garrett Parks, and they met when my mom was doing Mimi in St. Louis on Broadway with my grandma, Betty Garrett. My dad saw her and 30 years later, here we are.

[6:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's crazy. I didn't know that. So your grandma and your mom worked together before she met your dad?

[6:38] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, they've been together ever since, and here I am.

[6:42] Madison Claire Parks: Here I am to show for it.

[6:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[6:45] Madison Claire Parks: Now, your mom also was a Christine in Phantom for a very long time, and I've seen those adorable pictures of you in the Christine costume.

[6:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, yeah.

[6:57] Madison Claire Parks: How old are you in those things? We might need to post those if it's okay.

[7:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, totally. I've got too many of them.

[7:05] Madison Claire Parks: So my mom played Christine in The Phantom of the Opera on Broadway. I think she was the seventh Christine on Broadway? Sixth or seventh? I don't ever get that number right.

[7:16] Madison Claire Parks: So she'll be like, that was incorrect. So she did that for eight years off and on.

[7:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[7:23] Madison Claire Parks: And I was born between her doing LA and San Francisco. So I was about five months old when she went to go do it in San Francisco, and I was there until I was about three.

[7:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh. So growing up in the dressing room.

[7:38] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, I loved it. They made me my own. Once I could walk, they made me my own Christine costume to match the sort of red with the beads.

[7:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, like the Corrine dancer costume.

[7:49] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, the Hannibal scene. And so they made me one of those to match, and I would not take it off until it could not fit anymore.

[7:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It was your Elsa dress. I have a niece who would not take off the Elsa dress until it was in shreds.

[8:05] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, yeah.

[8:05] Madison Claire Parks: Like, just a little natural.

[8:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Or you can barely fit an arm through it. I tried to put it on a thigh, and I was like, this is what it's going to be.

[8:13] Madison Claire Parks: So was there ever a point where you were like, I'm going to be a lawyer, or was that not a possibility?

[8:19] Madison Claire Parks: You know, I never really thought about it. I went through different... I wanted to be a vet at one point, or I wanted to be a yoga teacher for a long time. As a nine-year-old me was like, I really am into... I wanted to be a yoga teacher. That was a weird phase I went through.

[8:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that so much.

[8:38] Madison Claire Parks: Although yoga is great. I need to do it more. I do it, and it's extremely helpful for everything.

[8:45] Madison Claire Parks: But I really never... Yeah, there was never a plan B. There was never a question of like, oh, this is what I like to do. I would put on shows in the living room. They had no plot, you know, big song and dance numbers.

[8:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[8:58] Madison Claire Parks: It just went on for too long.

[9:00] Madison Claire Parks: 1920s musical theater, we'll say.

[9:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yes, truly. But my parents never put me in like musical theater camp or even though I expressed want to. And my mom was like, you know, when you can drive, you know, she wanted to make sure that I really wanted to do it, I think.

[9:17] Madison Claire Parks: But it was just an ever-present thing versus like, because of your family, this is what you have to do. There was never any of that, which I think is very...

[9:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's not like family business. You got to take it over.

[9:27] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. It wasn't like the accounting firm or something that the musical theater accounting firm. And...

[9:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We need more of those, by the way.

[9:35] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, honestly. Yeah. So that was just sort of my childhood was just filled with it in many different forms. And I just fell in love with it. And I couldn't think of my life without it.

[9:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So then when did The Fantasticks happen?

[9:51] Madison Claire Parks: When I was 19. So about when I could drive at like 16 here in LA, I started driving myself to auditions and wanted to do that. And Musical Theater West gave me my first like real gig.

[10:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In Oklahoma, right?

[10:04] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. Doing Laurie in Oklahoma there. And I remember leaving high school to go do it. And then coming back, like, you know, two months later or something and sitting in a history class being like, I'm going to curse. This is bullshit. I was like, I don't want to do that. Like, I just learned more in those few months doing a show than I have sitting here in a classroom.

[10:24] Madison Claire Parks: And I was doing a concert in New York. And my agents there were like, they're not looking for anybody. But like, we've talked them into like letting you sing for them after a rehearsal. And I was like, Wow, okay. Very weird. And so I went in, I did the girls monologue and the song after one of their rehearsals, right on 50th Street there. And they were like, Okay, great. Thank you. You know, we're not looking. And I was like, No, that's okay. Thank you. Nice to meet you guys. And that was it. And a year later, they needed an immediate replacement. And I got a call. And my agent was like, Can you move to New York next week? And I was like, Yeah. And so I moved to New York and I had three days of rehearsal to learn the show.

[11:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a huge show to learn.

[11:11] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, I mean, because there are so few characters in it.

[11:18] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, good heavens. And Louisa is rarely off stage and is a brunt of the material and songs. And luckily, I was familiar with the show. But it was terrifying. Musically, the way that it's written, if you ever hear a female voice, it's her.

[11:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, she because she's the only female, the only one.

[11:37] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, it was totally panic inducing to like at 19 to leave home for the first time to move to New York fully on my own, learn a show in three days and do it like it was an incredible experience, but also absolutely terrifying.

[11:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, I have seen The Fantasticks once, and it was not in New York. It was a regional production, and I did not care for it.

[11:52] Madison Claire Parks: And that is a lot of people don't.

[11:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Here's the thing, though. I have completely come around in the past two weeks, reading the script, listening to the music. And I'm not kidding, because the music is so beautiful and timeless and sweet.

[12:12] Madison Claire Parks: That's the thing about the show. It can be very simple and sweet, which is part of its charm and part of the reason I think it's lasted so long because of its simplicity and slight weirdness, too.

[12:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's quirky.

[12:25] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. I mean, if you've seen, you know, the crazy round and round scene in The Fantasticks, that's quirky. It's weird.

[12:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it is. It's weird. Here were the two problems that I had with it when I first saw it.

[12:36] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah.

[12:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Number one, big theater.

[12:42] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. Kills this show. It can kill it so fast.

[12:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Problem number two, I very casually tossed it aside as, oh, those weirdos from the 60s who think that everything that is young is good and everything old is bad.

[12:55] Madison Claire Parks: Yes, that is so interesting.

[12:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And for some reason, that was like the vibe I was getting. Then I sit down to research it. It opened in '59. Like, we're not even near Hair.

[13:07] Madison Claire Parks: No, we're a decade away.

[13:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And these guys are on the forefront of culture clash. I had no idea what pioneers were behind this show.

[13:24] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. So let's talk about them.

[13:29] Madison Claire Parks: Music by Harvey Schmidt, lyric and books by Tom Jones, not Delilah Pussycat.

[13:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Tom Jones.

[13:39] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. Different. Just to be clear. Different Tom Jones. So Schmidt and Jones, their songwriting team, they're both Texans. Did you meet either of them? Because Harvey's not with us anymore, right?

[13:42] Madison Claire Parks: No, he's not. He passed away a few years ago, I want to say. So I never met Harvey because he was in Texas, I think, dealing with health issues in his later life. He sent a few lovely letters to the theater while I was there, which was really nice. But Tom was there quite a bit, because he kind of took over as director, quote unquote, when I was there. So we had a few visits from Tom. Sometimes he'd come just to watch the show and give notes. He seems to have very strong opinions about how the show should be played. So I can imagine how he, if he was present, he would consider himself the director and like more power to you, because it's such a specific show.

[14:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. It's like, okay, let's hear it from the horse's mouth. Like, bring it on.

[14:30] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. And also somebody who was the original director, he had passed away at that point. And so it sort of fell on Tom, too.

[14:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Word Baker.

[14:39] Madison Claire Parks: Yes. Thank you. Now, as a songwriting team, they are, I believe, underappreciated. I'm gonna say it.

[14:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We don't know who Schmidt and Jones are as much as they do Rodgers and Hammerstein, you know, Kander and Ebb, Sondheim, etc. And yet, in many ways, I feel like they are a precursor to many of the people who became more famous.

[15:00] Madison Claire Parks: Absolutely. You hear songs in The Fantasticks and it sounds like Sondheim, and then you realize it was written in 1959 before Sondheim had really even gotten on the scene.

[15:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. At least as a composer, right? An incredible team that, in addition to The Fantasticks, wrote 110 in the Shade, a gorgeous show.

[15:16] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, which is a beautiful score. Oh my goodness. I love that show so much. It's based on the play The Rainmaker. Highly recommend. Great Yelp review for 110 in the Shade. They also wrote I Do, I Do, which is a sweet little two-person show. I mean, one of the few two-person musicals to ever make it on Broadway because it was Mary Martin and Robert Preston who were big stars at the time. But it's just about a marriage that you see over the years. So, so sweet. In many ways, as an adult, I look at the range of musical theater characters, and I feel very represented and seen by Schmidt and Jones, I think because they're Texans. They are able to capture, like, the common man in a way that I feel...

[15:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Small town, sort of.

[15:59] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. In a way that I don't feel like people born and raised in New York in the theater scene can really grasp, and that is not a criticism. It's just simply a matter of where you're born.

[16:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that's something I've never thought of. Here, you know, in L.A. City Gal, I really never thought of it that way, and I think that's beautiful and a testament to their great skills, too, and what they've written.

[16:20] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, absolutely. There's a simplicity, but then also that added theatricality that comes from them trying weird things, essentially.

[16:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, truly. So they start out writing The Fantasticks as, like, a big Rodgers and Hammerstein musical that takes place in Texas, and it's going to be, like, this Western, and it is crap. They throw it away and say bye-bye. And they keep rewriting it, and it's just not working until they totally abandon the idea that it needs to be an R&H show. And as soon as they do that, as soon as they, like, bring it to bare bones, that's when things really start clicking. And around this time, in, like, the mid-50s, there was an adaptation of The Three-Penny Opera, which is this really, really old show. It's like the great-great-grandmother of musical theater. And Mark Blitzstein did the adaptation, and it ran forever off-Broadway, and it was, like, one of the first times that people realized, oh, you can have a hit musical, and it doesn't need to be on-Broadway. Which I think is something we're still struggling with.

[17:25] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, yeah, because it feels like that stamp of approval.

[17:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. It's a cloud. It's like a we've-made-it sort of thing. But because of Three-Penny Opera, all of a sudden, there was this huge rush of musicals off-Broadway. So you had Little Mary Sunshine, which is, like, super-spoofy melodrama. Have you ever done that show? I feel like you'd be fantastic in that show.

[17:44] Madison Claire Parks: No, I've done a few songs from it. I don't know it that well, but I really enjoy the little that I know about it.

[17:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So stupid and funny. Also, Earnest in Love, which is, like, a musicalization of the importance of being earnest.

[17:56] Madison Claire Parks: Yes.

[17:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then The Fantastics. All of these shows debuted off-Broadway around the same time. The Fantastics opens, it gets okay reviews, and from what I understand, they almost shut it down.

[18:11] Madison Claire Parks: Yes.

[18:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then a producer decides to actually close the production and move it upstate, or maybe even to, like, Connecticut or something, so that rich people can see it up there. Because there was this stigma, right, that rich people don't go to off-Broadway.

[18:26] Madison Claire Parks: Yes.

[18:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So all of the rich people come to see it, and then word starts spreading that it's actually pretty good. So then they move it back to off-Broadway, and now all of the rich people's friends are starting to show up. And then it just kind of starts snowballing until it turns into this phenomenon that they try to close several times over the next 43 years, and the fan base is like, absolutely not. Keep The Fantastics open.

[18:52] Madison Claire Parks: Yes, because it became like a New York staple, too. I mean, same when it had moved up to 50th Street. Like, it's part of the theater landscape. You just always have The Fantastics open.

[19:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that's also partially why I got the job, because they announced it was closing. So the girl and the boy that were doing it got summer stock gigs.

[19:13] Madison Claire Parks: Sure.

[19:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And they were like, okay, well, the show's closing in a few months. And then they're like, surprise, it's not closing. And they had already gotten other jobs, and they were like, well, I can't, you know, I don't want to turn down this summer gig.

[19:25] Madison Claire Parks: Of course.

[19:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And so that's how I came in initially, is like, we need an immediate replacement because it was going to close, and then didn't. So it happened many times.

[19:33] Madison Claire Parks: That's so cool. And, like, they did it without Twitter.

[19:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, they did it without people, like, really, you know, on the social media. Anyway, I love that. I love that people kept it alive. Like, how big was the theater? How big was the Sullivan? Do you know how many, like, seats it was?

[19:49] Madison Claire Parks: I don't.

[19:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: How big was the one you were in?

[19:52] Madison Claire Parks: Not big at all. And they sort of modeled it when it moved there after Sullivan Street, with fake tiles, because at Sullivan Street, the floor was really like kitchen-tiled floors.

[20:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Stop it.

[20:03] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, apparently it was extremely slippery, is what my mom said. I'm like, I would have broken something on that. I tripped too many times in the show itself, just because I'm a klutz. But they made, like, this sort of fake tile floor at the Jerry Orbach Theater to mimic what was at the Sullivan, you know, but of course it was matte and sort of nice to stand on.

[20:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: A couple of figures about the original. The set cost $900. Period.

[20:32] Madison Claire Parks: I didn't know that. That's crazy.

[20:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Costumes were $541. They apparently checked the receipts on this. And the designer was the set designer, costumer, prop master, and lighting designer, and did it all for about $500. Crazy. So, like, in general, it was an incredibly small budget that then ran 42 years, and if you don't think that they, like, recouped their investment.

[20:59] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, oh yeah.

[21:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're crazy. Also, so Sullivan Street Playhouse has 135 seats.

[21:07] Madison Claire Parks: Okay.

[21:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And the Jerry Orbach has 199.

[21:11] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, so under 200.

[21:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[21:14] Madison Claire Parks: That is perfect for The Fantasticks!

[21:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're right. I mean, it kills the show if it's bigger, because you miss that intimacy, which is so necessary for this show to work. We were also truly maybe five feet from the...

[21:30] Madison Claire Parks: We were really up close and personal with them at the Jerry Orbach.

[21:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow.

[21:34] Madison Claire Parks: We were right on top. One show, I have, when I come out and start the girls' monologue, we were told to talk to the audience. That was the whole thing about the show, too. So I start the monologue to this guy that's sitting five feet in front of me, and he goes, Oh, Jesus! And I was like, Oh no, sir, we've got two more hours of being this far apart from each other, so you are in for a ride. It was the funniest thing in the world.

[22:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That makes me so happy. He's so uncomfortable. He just needs to show you.

[22:09] Madison Claire Parks: He was like, Please do not talk to me. I don't like this. I'm not having this right now.

[22:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Theater is confrontational.

[22:17] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, but that's how intimate it was. I love that. Some people also felt like they could talk back.

[22:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, right.

[22:24] Madison Claire Parks: We had that happen because it was so conversational and so up close and personal. Look, in terms of audience participation, don't pick me.

[22:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh no, I hate it.

[22:32] Madison Claire Parks: Like, I am 100% that guy. I'm like, No, no, no, no, no, no. I just want to be in the audience. But at the same time, I'm sitting here in quarantine thinking like, Oh my gosh, I miss that intimacy of the possibility of someone getting mad at me.

[22:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And being that, another, this is so horrible of me because I'm the same way. I would have been that guy that said, Oh, Jesus, I'm like, Please do not talk to me. You're on stage. This needs to be a divide. I need to enjoy you. Please don't talk to me.

[22:58] Madison Claire Parks: I went to go see the Cats revival and I'd never seen Cats. And I was sitting on the aisle seat, really excited, like excited because I was like, I've shit on Cats a lot in my head. And I want to really, you know, be excited and supportive about it because I didn't know the show well. And the lights dim and I always get emotional when an overture happens.

[23:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is the fun overture.

[23:20] Madison Claire Parks: It's really exciting. And this poor whoever it was, I don't know, came like slinking up next to me and I went, No! And I yelled, No! And I was like, Oh my God, I'm that person. I'm the person I hate as an actor.

[23:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Those green eyes slinked up on you.

[23:36] Madison Claire Parks: Right up on my chair.

[23:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And you shut it down.

[23:38] Madison Claire Parks: I was like, No! I was like, Get on stage! Stop it! No! So stupid.

[23:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I loved being a kitty for that very reason.

[23:47] Madison Claire Parks: I would absolutely rub on people's legs like I was an actual.

[23:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, I love freaking them out.

[23:53] Madison Claire Parks: It was so fun.

[23:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're just drunk with power.

[23:57] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah.

[23:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: My goodness, is it already time to go through the show?

[24:01] Madison Claire Parks: I guess so.

[24:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, OK. So here's I guess here's one more thing that I wanted to say.

[24:05] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah.

[24:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I have this quote from Tom Jones who says, We wanted to celebrate romanticism and mock it at the same time.

[24:15] Madison Claire Parks: I've never heard that quote. I love that.

[24:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You know, speaking of pioneers, one of the rules of the podcast is that you can never talk too much about Howard Ashman. And in the script for Little Shop of Horrors, he has like a whole page of his instructions about how to play the show.

[24:31] Madison Claire Parks: I haven't really seen many scripts that have that from the author, at least musicals.

[24:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[24:37] Madison Claire Parks: Fantastics is another one of those.

[24:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I haven't looked at a script in so many years.

[24:41] Madison Claire Parks: I have. That's yes, of course it does.

[24:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I wrote down a couple.

[24:45] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah.

[24:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Point.

[24:47] Madison Claire Parks: That's how all of them are distinguished.

[24:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's point colon.

[24:50] Madison Claire Parks: Yes.

[24:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So like this is a point. Point. Costumes should be theatrical, should have a flair, should even suggest commedia, like comedial art in a way. But they should be basically contemporary. No tights, please.

[25:05] Madison Claire Parks: But BVDs are OK.

[25:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That. That's in the script.

[25:11] Madison Claire Parks: That's gospel.

[25:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That is amazing.

[25:14] Madison Claire Parks: That was not in my script.

[25:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I wish.

[25:17] Madison Claire Parks: That's incredible. I mean, yeah, they had a very specific vision. And like we said, why so much of it worked? Because it followed this mold that they knew had the outcome that they needed it to have.

[25:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Point. Given this somewhat stylized premise of presentation, it is not necessary for the actors to add any theatrical icing of their own.

[25:39] Madison Claire Parks: That is to say.

[25:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That is to say, asides are not spoken in the melodramatic theatrical way, but simply and directly. And the parts should not be spoofed, even when the romanticism becomes extreme. The people should be people, not cardboard rococo.

[25:59] Madison Claire Parks: Like even the way that he wrote that is so The Fantasticks because it's like straight to the point. And yet also a little silly.

[26:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And that's what I love about the characters is they are larger in life in so many ways. But if they're not real people, the show loses their magic, which is why I think he felt the need to put that at the front. Is they need to be real people, even as ridiculous as some of these things are coming out of their mouth are. Because you want to fight for these characters, especially for the boy and girl.

[26:30] Madison Claire Parks: The silliness is almost in its honesty. Like the characters are so honest with the thoughts running through their head. They just let them spill out, which means that they have to be honest or else then they're not silly.

[26:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: A perfect example I found of that during the show is during the girls monologue. It ends with, you know, I am special. I'm special. Please, God, please don't let me be normal. And to me, that was like the most I know. I'm like, I feel that very deeply and viscerally. That to me was the most sacred part of the show for me, because in those lines, that's who Louisa is. And that is her want. That is her, you know, why she drives this story, why she's in this story. And I found so many people do the girls monologue, too, and much more. It's so overdone now, particularly for young performers.

[27:27] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, and that's why it's great and used often. And if you didn't take that moment seriously, I think I was watching a masterclass of somebody coaching somebody else on this. And they were like, they really wanted it to be like, honk, honk, funny. And then I was like, that loses her magic. And from personal experience in the show, if I didn't take that so seriously, that's what got a laugh every single night. Because of how earnest it has to be. And that's when the audience goes, oh, my God, how ridiculous that she believes this and wants this to her core. And that was really funny to people.

[28:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And we also identify with it because, like, that's what being an adolescent is all about, is taking things so seriously that probably you don't 20 years later.

[28:11] Madison Claire Parks: Exactly. Everything is so big and, you know, and important at that age. People laughed every night and I didn't get it at first. I was like, this is a very serious moment for me. How dare you laugh at me? Don't laugh at me.

[28:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, but I loved and, you know, because after two years of doing it, I would try it different ways. And any time that I took it any sort of sarcastic or not earnest way, fell flat. Nobody enjoyed it. And then you have to work to get everyone back on your side.

[28:40] Madison Claire Parks: Wow. Interesting.

[28:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's that that's what's funny is how serious and important these things are to these people. The show is based on, I'm going to say in English, The Romancers.

[28:54] Madison Claire Parks: Yes.

[28:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which was written by a French poet by the name of Edmond Rostand. And he wrote everything in verse because he was a poet. And so The Fantasticks is in verse.

[29:08] Madison Claire Parks: It feels almost Shakespearean sometimes.

[29:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In that poetry is an elegance and a refinement that plays really well against the simplicity and kind of bare bones structure that they were going for off-Broadway.

[29:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Whose job is basically to facilitate props and settings and what else?

[29:42] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, everyone's right-hand man that helps to sort of have his or her hand in everything. We have our two ingenues. We have Louisa, the girl, and Matt, the boy. We have their fathers. I forget sometimes which one is which. Hucklebee is...

[29:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The boy's father.

[29:56] Madison Claire Parks: The boy's father. Bellamy is the girl's, yeah. They're both gardeners. We also see El Gallo, this character known as El Gallo. He is both a narrator of the story and a player within the story, but he is a mysterious, wise, sexy type character that was originally played by Jerry Orbach, which is, you know, of course why your theatre was renamed after him. And for those who think they may not know who Jerry Orbach is, he was Lumiere in Beauty and the Beast, like the cartoon. Legend. And if you're like, ah, I don't like cartoons. Well, then you probably watch Law and Order.

[30:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[30:38] Madison Claire Parks: And he was on Law and Order for like as long as Fantasticks ran. So Legend. He was also the original Julian Marsh in 42nd Street, like Jerry Orbach. Amazing career. And this incredible voice, just this rich baritone that is stunning to listen to, especially on this opening number, which became the biggest hit of the show, Try to Remember. So many people have recorded this song and it's become a standard.

[31:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it absolutely has.

[31:13] Madison Claire Parks: It also introduces how this whole show plays like an allegory. Allegories are this really interesting way of teaching, especially anciently. Jesus Christ always taught in allegories. So did Plato and Socrates, etc. It means that there is a story that symbolizes a greater principle or truth than you can simply say flat out.

[31:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That was beautiful. Yes.

[31:45] Madison Claire Parks: So for in the instance of the Fantasticks, we have these characters, you know, this boy and the girl and their fathers who are going to play out this little fairy tale of a show. And yet that story is a symbol of something much bigger, much greater. Here in Try to Remember, we have the lyrics, you know, about remembering September when grass was green and corn was yellow. And then the end of the song says, deep in December, it's nice to remember, although you know the snow will follow. Deep in December, it's nice to remember without a hurt. The heart is hollow. Deep in December, it's nice to remember the fire of September that made us mellow. Deep in December, our hearts should remember and follow.

They're not talking about the calendar year. It's so beautiful and poignant and a great lesson and the whole sort of point of it all. This little phrase we'll come back to as we talk about the show, because everything that we are about to explore is in this little verse. And here you and I are talking and it actually is December. And at the same time, it also feels like we are in an emotional December in terms of what this year has been for so many.

[33:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So I was thinking about it and I'm like, OK, let's do what the song says. If we're here in December, both literally and metaphorically, what can we remember about not being here and how can we follow that?

[33:23] Madison Claire Parks: It is sort of perfect for this time because it's so easy to get into the black hole of this time. And yeah, how do we twofold reflect on what's past or pre-COVID and go, that will happen again, you know, and to keep hope that something like that will happen again. And what had happened before that is now put in perspective of that doesn't matter or I need to do better or what, you know, what changes can I make to make it to the other side of this? So that's the follow. I feel like that's the follow. Remember the fire and then move forward, like follow, follow that desire to someplace new.

[34:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And make it someplace new because the past can inform your future for good. Why don't we take that positivity and move it forward?

[34:09] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, that's so cool. That's what I love so much about the show, despite its many problems that I'm sure we will talk about.

[34:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We'll talk about them, but this isn't one of them.

[34:20] Madison Claire Parks: And I love that it's still and quiet and sentimental. And in the Off-Broadway version, he just sat on a piano bench and sang the song to the audience. And it's worked out brilliantly for them. Now we get to meet Louisa.

[34:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[34:37] Madison Claire Parks: Who I'm obsessed with, like she's an icon. I also might be totally biased, like she's one of the best characters in the show, if not the best. But also Tom was very specific about Louisa. And it was evident, you know, hearing from Tom and stage management, all that, like she is the core of the show. And that's who they focused on and worked on the most. But you can tell she is the anchor to it all. Here's a little bit of verse that El Gallo says about her, which it just tickles me beyond all measure. And when the girl was 15, she began to notice something strange. Her ugly duckling features had undergone a change. In short, she was growing pretty for the first time in her whole life, pretty. And the shock so stunned and thrilled her that she became almost immediately, incurably insane.

[35:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[35:29] Madison Claire Parks: And I think they had changed when the girl was 16. She became 16 when we had done the show.

[35:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[35:37] Madison Claire Parks: And it's a great introduction to her. We do have listeners who are teenagers. And I'm not calling you all crazy. Just know that there is a level of insanity in adolescence that's totally OK.

[35:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, yeah.

[35:50] Madison Claire Parks: And, you know, when I was like 16, I'd be like, no, I've got everything under control. Like I got this shit on lock and it's a big fat lie. It's just slowly come unraveled since then. No, but it is that like that's how big things are. And it's what fuels you to follow.

[36:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[36:08] Madison Claire Parks: Right. And when you have these big emotions, you're just going to like kind of crawl into a ball and not do anything. But like you have these big emotions, you have these desires to see the world and do something. And that's divine. Follow it. As I'm sure this show will change even for me looking at it now versus when I was doing it versus 10 years down the line. I know it'll change with age as well. And it's kind of cool to see how it's changed even in the short amount of time that I've grown since I was 19 doing it.

[36:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In many ways, do you think you were Louisa?

[36:40] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, yeah. And that's that's the thing I think about, you know, trying to do it now. And I just I had that sort of innocence in a way. I think I was one of the youngest girls to do it. Although another I hadn't thought of this in years to once doing this monologue that's about to follow. I am 16 years old, blah, blah, blah. And somebody else goes, oh, yeah, right. And I was like, OK, hold on. How dare you? I did my face mask last night. I was like, there is still a teen at the end when I was doing this. Come on.

[37:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so silly.

[37:15] Madison Claire Parks: People are sometimes the worst.

[37:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know. And I love them dearly.

[37:19] Madison Claire Parks: Yes. So she does. She has this great monologue, followed by an even greater song about wanting much more. I mean, that's the name of the song and a true I want song, you know, as far as like textbook being like, well, what is there? What is there? I want song. She just gets right down to brass tacks. She's like, this is what I want.

[37:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[37:42] Madison Claire Parks: And it's a beautiful song. OK, now we meet Matt. He has been to college, though. I don't assume like college as we know it. He hasn't he didn't go to Harvard, but he's been away to school. And it has turned him into his father's worst nightmare, which is this like a dreamer, right? A sort of a pseudo intellectual that, you know, thinks he knows more than he does. He's hopelessly in love with Louisa, who is on the other side of the wall. The only problem is, is that their fathers have this feud. There's the wall. They're not allowed to talk to each other. Louisa, of course, feels the same way. And it almost seems like Matt, with all of his college knowledge, is going to try and woo Louisa by comparing her to a summer's day, as it were. And he's calling over the wall, which on stage is just the mute holding up like a stick. Right. Yeah. And that is a lot. That is a long time for that poor mute to hold the stick.

[38:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It is the deltoids.

[38:40] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. You're like, oh, God, that's so true. And Matt is waxing really poetic. And yet Louisa can't hear him because of the wall. So he'll say something and she's like, can you speak louder?

[39:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[39:02] Madison Claire Parks: And he is working so hard and she wants it to be so extreme. And that's part of what is built into their romance is that we can't see each other, but we can still love each other.

[39:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Forbidden love.

[39:08] Madison Claire Parks: That adds all the more mystery and excitement to it for both of them, because he's also such a poet. I hadn't thought of this in so long, but I'm nearly 20 years old. And he talks about education, goes, I'm grown up stable. She makes me young again, is the other line. And I love that. I never thought of that until this moment. That's so ridiculous. Yeah. This 16 year old, this 19 year old being like, oh, God, old and bitter already. She makes me feel like a young lad. Now, what's even more hilarious is that this deep forbidden love has actually been orchestrated by the feuding fathers who are actually best friends.

[39:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[39:47] Madison Claire Parks: The only reason that they built the wall is because they wanted desperately for their children to fall in love and get married. And nothing wraps that up quite like forbidding your children to do something.

[39:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[40:00] Madison Claire Parks: And which probably both of them, I think, have read. I bet Matt and Louisa have read Romeo and Juliet till the cows come in. You know, they love that story. It is absolutely part of these characters. It's almost like they're talking this way because they love Shakespeare so much.

[40:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. You know.

[40:22] Madison Claire Parks: And that's what also I like about Louisa's. I always viewed her as someone that is well read. She's not stupid by any means. Neither of them are. And she is well read. And this is just this beautiful fantasy world that she's created for herself. And it's not stupid. It's because she has all of this knowledge about great books and stories. And I think one of the lines in much more is I want to be kissed upon the eyes, which is something in The Great Gatsby he talks about.

[41:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, he talks about.

[41:05] Madison Claire Parks: And I don't know this for sure. I never asked Tom this, that in The Great Gatsby, Jay Gatsby is talking about Daisy and she's the kind of woman that you want to kiss upon the eyes is a quote from the book. And I always figured that that's something that Louisa has taken on and wants to be the woman that wants to be kissed upon the eyes or is viewed that way to be Daisy.

[41:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[41:14] Madison Claire Parks: So there's so many of these little literary references.

[41:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[41:18] Madison Claire Parks: Which I think makes these characters smart.

[41:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, good point, because if they weren't, then they would just be ridiculous.

[41:25] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. Then it's just a farce.

[41:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that's so true. So now they're getting to the point like they know that it's working. They know that the kids are in love and now they need something to like wrap it up. Now Louisa's dream. And this is when we get into problematic areas. Her dream is to essentially be kidnapped and rescued by her man.

[41:51] Madison Claire Parks: Yes. And to her credit, she lives in a world that is filled with literature where that is the message she's been receiving.

[41:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[41:57] Madison Claire Parks: And wants to willingly play damsel in distress. And it comes out, yeah, in this kidnapping abduction.

[42:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. So now originally at this moment, Elgayo, who was our narrator, appears as now an actual character in the piece. And he kind of has this smarmyness about him in that he's like, you want somebody to kidnap your daughter? Well, you can hire me and we will call it a rape.

[42:26] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, yeah. And then proceeds to tell the audience, don't freak out.

[42:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[42:32] Madison Claire Parks: When I say the word rape, I mean like in literature. And by the time I was doing the show, that had been cut totally.

[42:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: OK, so he does have kind of a point where you had all of these famous poems like the Rape of the Sabine Women that became Seven Brides for Seven Brothers.

[42:49] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. And that's actually the only time by the time I was doing the show, the word rape was in the show is when Louisa said it like the Rape of the Sabine Women. And she quotes it basically because it's now they changed it all to, you know, an abduction. And when you listen to the old cast recording, it's almost unbearable. You can't listen to it.

[43:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I have never heard the word rape used so many times in any medium, film, television, like news reports.

[43:18] Madison Claire Parks: No. And I it's horrible and I'm sure extremely triggering for people. I can only imagine.

[43:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[43:27] Madison Claire Parks: I tend to process my own trauma through humor like that's just who I am.

[43:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I do the same thing. I like to laugh about it and laugh at myself.

[43:36] Madison Claire Parks: So when I try to make light of these things, I hope that it's not triggering to other people. But I am grateful that they were able to notice that this wasn't aging well.

[43:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No.

[43:49] Madison Claire Parks: And, yeah, they changed it to abduction, the word abduction. And and then they sort of just squeezed in more syllables and abduction. That's emphatic and abduction. That's polite. It sounds fine.

[44:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It sounds fine.

[44:03] Madison Claire Parks: Honestly, the song is still a little cringy.

[44:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mm hmm.

[44:06] Madison Claire Parks: While we're here and talking about triggering things.

[44:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[44:10] Madison Claire Parks: I just wanted to go ahead and offer a few statistics that I think are interesting now that I have everyone's attention. Did you know that in the eyes of the law, it was not possible for a husband to rape a wife until 1979?

[44:23] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. Crazy. It's mind-boggling and extremely frustrating and terrifying, and we have so much more to go as well. This one I also found kind of interesting. From 1935 to 1965, there began to be this shift where if, like, someone was convicted of rape, instead of put in jail, they were given psychiatric help because you wouldn't be able to do something like that unless there was a mental illness, which then excused a conversation about rape. It was like, all of a sudden, men didn't have to worry about that because if you weren't mentally ill, then it wasn't even possible. Yeah. It's so terrifying, and we still have so much more to go, and I get very up on my soapbox about these things because it's so... But it's so true, and it has to begin with conversation, and it has to begin with understanding what the situation in all of its forms can look and feel like. Fantasticks has said the word so many times over the years that I felt like we needed to pause and bring a little bit of awareness to it.

[45:29] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, absolutely, because in being a part of these things, you have to acknowledge that you were a part of damage that was done. Even though the word was replaced and I didn't do that version of the show, it's still in the history of it. And another thing, while we're paused in this moment, is something I've become aware of is we're about to meet in the show the old actor, Henry, and Mortimer. And Mortimer is also extremely problematic. He's usually dressed in extremely stereotypical Native American garb and does sort of a bad stereotype. And that should not have happened. I didn't think twice about it when I was in the show, and that's horrible.

[46:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Really? It was still going on at that point?

[46:25] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, yeah. I mean, very much so. And not so much in the acting of it, but the fact that that's how this character is characterized, particularly because it's players. So now, I think if the show's done now, Mortimer can be anything. It could be a showgirl for all we care. Anything other than this. The point, too, right, is that he has a Cockney accent, but then he's dressed as a Native American. So it's like he doesn't have to be anything.

[46:47] Madison Claire Parks: No. And that's the beauty of the show and why when the show is up further, I think that needs to be changed because so much in Western culture has stolen and made a stereotype out of Native American culture. So I looked up because being in the show directly influenced viewers, particularly in New York, where people are coming in from out of town. Maybe this is their first introduction to theater. And in front of them is a very stereotypical, bad representation of a culture that is extremely sacred and important to people and is used as a punchline. And that's not correct. And even little things that I'm learning, I know, particularly in the theater world, you know, if you're getting notes from a director or something like that, I've had several people, you know, not necessarily just in the show, but, you know, let's powwow in the corner. And that's not.

[47:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh, you're so right.

[47:46] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. And that verbiage that we don't think of, especially as a very white and blonde woman, I never thought of, but that that's a sacred thing. And just come meet me in the corner. There's so many other options. And I just feel like that particular word is used a lot in theater and that we can do better at that, me included. And so I looked up there's so many resources for so many places that you can support native and indigenous people. And one of them I found was the Red Hawk Native American Arts Council works in the arts, particularly since that's what we're talking about for creating more opportunities as well as working with these sort of bad stereotypes and correcting that and helping to remedy that. And so I have a little Instagram slide we can pop up on maybe the Instagram as well for absolutely other resources for people to inform themselves about.

[48:29] Madison Claire Parks: And it's just something that as we take this pause in theater and this show, The Fantastics, just from an economical standpoint, is a great show to put up coming up. It could be streamed easily. It's a small cast. But if that's the case, then different things need to happen. And accountability is not an attack is my favorite new phrase, you know, as I love as I'm learning and fucking up and excuse me, you know, and learning things that I've done and shows and everything in this show in particular. Why not? It's probably a great option to do post-COVID as it is cheap.

[49:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're exactly right. You could do so many different things because it's so small and it's usually just done with a piano and a harp, which is beautiful.

[49:16] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, my God. The score. I mean, that's something we haven't even talked about. The score sounds so lush and full and it's just on piano.

[49:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's just it's just a piano and a harp and it's beautiful. But yes, I just think thank you for doing that pause because I think that's important. And, you know, there's resources to share and to align ourselves with.

[49:31] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, that's awesome. Yay. Yes.

[49:38] Madison Claire Parks: Okay, so it all goes down. Right. And it goes down perfectly. Yeah. And that's also where we meet the old actor, Henry and Mortimer, who are these old like vaudeville crazy guys. Mortimer is known for his death scenes. So he's always doing death scenes. And Henry is known for his Shakespeare. But he can't hear.

[49:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No.

[50:05] Madison Claire Parks: And he gets it wrong, you know, mixes them up. And which is that's funny. And that's just old vaudeville that's come to add. What a fun way to really show the ridiculousness of this fantasy, because like, yeah, the old guy who can't hear is is the one who's kidnapping, you know, and so then when Matt becomes the hero and saves the day, it's like, well, duh. Yeah, of course. But to Louisa, oh, goodness, she's been rescued.

[50:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And exactly. The prince has come on his white horse, basically, you know, that kind of thing. And so the first act ends with this happy ending, right? The fathers celebrate because the lovers have found each other. And so now they can have their friendship out in the open. And in many ways, there's even a happy ending for Mortimer and Henry because they were unemployed actors, and then they got to do something.

[50:54] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, well, and because they in the off-Broadway production, they quite literally come out of a trunk that was in the stage directions. And did it actually happen?

[51:04] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, yeah. So we and also right before this whole abduction, the perfect moment is when Matt and Louisa sneak out of their house to meet and do Soon It's Gonna Rain, which is also Oh, my gosh, I know, I forgot about soon. I'm so sorry.

[51:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's forgive me.

[51:19] Madison Claire Parks: And which is another one that I think has transcended as far as musically Streisand recorded it. So soon. Let's talk about that song. So it's the Matt and Louisa sneak out and sing it together.

[51:25] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. And it's both once again, in the terms of this allegory, they're talking about the rain like actually coming. Yeah. And like, what are we going to do? And how can we keep each other safe? And yet there's something else there as well. That's like a little sexual, a little in terms of like, just growing up and intimacy. And being alone, you know, with somebody that you really like for the first time and not knowing physically what to do or what to say. You know, it's the only time in the show that Matt and Louisa kiss, too. And it's very simple and sweet.

[52:02] Madison Claire Parks: And that song sounds like Sondheim. If you played that song for somebody who didn't know it.

[52:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I feel like they'd be like, Oh, well, that's from one of his early pieces. Evening Primrose, you know, I don't know.

[52:13] Madison Claire Parks: That's so it's very Evening Primrose to me. I never thought of that.

[52:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that's before Sondheim.

[52:24] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. And it's it is one of my favorite songs and it's a beautiful moment in the show. So that is right before all of the craziness.

[52:29] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. Which is actually really smart that they have a moment to connect before that. So then they have something to come back to. It's structured well, you know, in that you get these like, big, crazy, you know, funny moments. And then these sweet moments, it just does that structure very well.

[52:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's great. Since the first act ended with basically where the end of Cinderella, you know what I mean?

[52:51] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah, the end of the fairy tale, basically, then we go to intermission. And I think there's kind of this fun into the woods type thing of all right, well, what's going to happen next? We got everything we wanted.

[53:00] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. What's really interesting about the way the show is structured is the first act is titled In the Moonlight. Is that right?

[53:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes.

[53:11] Madison Claire Parks: So everything is happening with the soft glow of the moon. Yeah. And then at the top of the second act, and I'm going to read some verse again from Mr. Gallo himself.

[53:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[53:23] Madison Claire Parks: That's something else like El Gallo means the cock in Spanish. Did you usually have Latino or Latinx people play El Gallo?

[53:31] Madison Claire Parks: That was something else I would recommend. That's another thing that needs to be addressed, particularly because I mean, in the history of the actual off Broadway production, we had very, very few, if any, actors and actresses of color. I mean, at all. It was not good. And I know the few that we had, I did not have a great experience there. And that's also something to be acknowledged, you know, because it was so old fashioned.

[54:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know, even as the only woman, that was sometimes extremely difficult in the show.

[54:04] Madison Claire Parks: Oh, I didn't even think about that. Thank you for saying that.

[54:10] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. And that was that was hard. There was a lot of boys clubby things that happened. And I'm grateful for the show, to the show for that, because I find myself speaking up more and more for myself in particularly in theater situations where you're not heard as much as a woman. The show itself doesn't have to be that way. There's no indication of anything, you know?

[54:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[54:30] Madison Claire Parks: So why? Well, it can be anything. I would love to see a production of The Fantastics directed by a woman. I think that that would be especially since there's only one female in it. I would love that.

[54:36] Madison Claire Parks: And that's actually why when I left, I left the show right before it closed. I didn't know that it was closing. I'm so mad about it. I was like, just tell me I would have stayed the extra month and finish it out. But I put in my notice because I had done a concert. I think the concert actually that I was in New York for to audition when I auditioned for The Fantastics initially. And a wonderful performer named Lisa Livesey, she was there at the concert and she was talking to somebody. I overheard her talking to somebody about doing Wicked and she was a Glinda. And she was saying like they asked her, how can you leave a show like that and a role like that? And she goes, well, one night I just came out on stage and I was in the bubble and started to do all these things.

And I just knew it was time for somebody else to love her, to love Glinda like she loved her. And that always stuck in my brain. And it's true. One night I came out with during the overture and did the little choreography and the bows and all of this. And I was sitting there during Try to Remember and I was like, it's time for somebody else to love her. I've had my time with her. It's time for somebody else to love her. And somebody else did. And a lot of people got to play her and love her in their own way.

[55:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Such a generous way to look at it. I love that.

[55:50] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah.

[55:50] Madison Claire Parks: Okay, so at the top of Act Two, El Gallo says, and he's talking about the moon because like the whole first act was about moonlight, right? Their moon was cardboard, fragile. It was very apt to fray. And what was last night scenic may seem cynic by today. The play's not done. Oh, no, not quite. For life never ends in the moonlit night. And despite what pretty poets say, the night is only half the day.

[56:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As if saying, yeah, everything's pretty in moonlight. Wait until the sun comes out.

[56:23] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. And the sun does come out. And Act Two is all about full daylight. Let's see what's really going on here, which is what elevates The Fantastics to both an even weirder place than it's been before. And a much cooler place than a lot of our fairy tales. Yeah, you get to see after the happily ever after.

[56:40] Madison Claire Parks: And so right here at the top, everybody's getting on each other's nerves. It's called this plum is too ripe. Yeah. Everything from the way the other person eats to the way the other person is, you know, minding their plants. Everything is just ticking everybody off. And boy, is that a reality in quarantine?

[57:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my God, yes.

[57:12] Madison Claire Parks: That is so relatable in life. And yet during all of this, when you have been together all for too long and then you're suddenly like, I've never heard this person chew so much. And now I'm hearing it every time they chew. You know, like it's those things like they do in this, like taking that bite of the plum and they're like, oh, my God, that's what a horrible sound you're making. How dare you?

[57:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's true. It's very quarantine-esque.

[57:33] Madison Claire Parks: For sure. For sure. All of this fighting leads to the fathers revealing that the whole abduction thing that led everybody to their happiness was totally made up.

[57:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[57:45] Madison Claire Parks: Matt and Louisa, as a couple, start to annoy, you know, and make fun of their parents. And it just the parents are like, oh, you're not grateful for us. Well, guess what? If it weren't for us, you wouldn't even be together. And here's why. And it triggers everybody.

[58:00] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. Matt is, I think, feels like his masculinity is threatened because he was supposed to have been this hero that defeated the villain.

[58:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[58:09] Madison Claire Parks: And then it turns out the villain was just some for-hire actor. And so that changes also, I think, the way that Louisa sees him.

[58:16] Madison Claire Parks: Yeah. And so now they have this moment where they decide, well, you know what? I'm going to go have adventures. Yeah. We don't have to be, you know, accountable to each other. We don't have to. If this was all false, then I'm going to find something real. You know, I'm going to find a real man, basically.

[58:31] Madison Claire Parks: And the world's come crumbling down and they go, well, let's we're going to find the real thing then this was all fake. And that's, I think, absolutely heartbreaking for both of them.

[58:41] Madison Claire Parks: And one of the shows, I don't know what happened during that. There's something where the both fathers go, Matt, Louisa, and we like run and we have to hit a certain point. And then El Gallo breaks in and sort of narrates. And during one show, it was Matt, Emily. And I went. And there was no. Are we doing Our Town? There was no Emily in the show. There wasn't a girl who was named Emily before me.

[59:10] Madison Claire Parks: Nobody knows where this came from and it was so weird and hysterical and at the worst possible moment to a very sensitive dramatic moment. How do you freeze while you're like... Yeah and I could see the mat out of the corner of my eye and we sort of looked at each other and all you could see were just shoulders because we could not we were like we have to keep this together right now it was so bizarre and I will never forget it and we'll never let anybody live that down because we're like where I don't know. That's absolutely fantastic. This is also where the allegory really starts I think becoming more apparent right? Pun intended. Because you see how their lives have become a symbol for parenting and just growing up in general.

So often I think as parents and heaven knows I'm not one but I'm surrounded by children and lots of siblings who are and you so want your child to be happy and in many ways you feel like you need to keep them from pain in order for that to happen. So in this story you have two fathers who have orchestrated this complete fabrication in order to control the outcome of their children's happiness. Completely forgetting that happiness like Try to Remember says involves a lot of Decembers involves pain and mistakes.

[1:00:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Beautifully said.

[1:00:43] Madison Claire Parks: Oh thank you. And so you see that it didn't work you know all of this fight for control just totally backfired and what needs to happen now is for them to go on the journey and honestly get injured. Yeah physically and emotionally for the boy and the girl for Matt and Louisa yeah when that bubble bursts yeah. And I in many ways I don't think a lot has changed maybe COVID will have taught our youth a much tougher lesson than we ever learned in our young years but there is a protective bubble that pops and we think that that is growing up but I don't think the bubble exists by itself.

[1:01:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No I think you're right I think the bubble in some way is control whether that's you or from an outside source you know trying to make sure that the world doesn't hurt you or that you don't feel pain because those people have felt pain and know how horrible it is and but that's a part of life like you said you have to experience the Decembers in order to reflect on or appreciate the Septembers and then get to the next one. Matt decides to go off and have adventures and he meets up with Henry and Mortimer again but they're like playing different people right?

[1:01:58] Madison Claire Parks: Yes they're just sort of players helping the story along.

[1:02:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Gotcha okay and these two characters that they are now they're kind of like hi diddly dee and that comes like for me from Pinocchio like the fox and the and the cat the world's a stage come with me yeah and so they take Matt and then Louisa meets up with El Gallo again yeah who has gotten over his back problems from the abduction and is now ready to essentially seduce her into this world of adventure and danger and what a real abduction you know what what that really would be versus this falsified version you know and so Louisa's kind of going in this like bad boy direction for a second and also when Matt leaves him and El Gallo sing I Can See It which is another classic another great song oh my gosh I keep forgetting about all of these songs I mean they're all freaking awesome so rarely you get a great guy duet and it's great and it's fun and it moves like the rhythm of the song it moves it drives really well and that's exciting and that sort of is like I'm gonna go out and actually be the man I think I want to be do you think that El Gallo orchestrated that so he could have Louisa like does he have a desire at this point to take over or is it a little bit more meta than that you know I don't know I think that's a great thing that's up to the El Gallo yeah because it could be I want to seduce her which like she's supposed to be 16 which is you know um and but I think it's more so from the narrator standpoint of like in order for her to learn her lesson he has to not be here and vice versa.

[1:03:38] Madison Claire Parks: I love that that's much better and I think particularly because in that sort of bubble bursting moment there's a freeze and El Gallo comes over to Louisa and takes a tear this is a new this was a newer thing that I believe um halfway I want to say through the Jerry Auerbach version and he takes the tear off of her and looks at it and says you know this tear is enough this tiny tear the boy will go the girl will stay thus runs the world away her heart's broken he's pissed now I need to talking about Matt now he needs to go off to the world and see what the world really is and I'm going to entice him to do so for both of their lesson learning El Gallo takes Louisa to like all of these dances yeah yeah or these like fanciful places and it's this crazy song called round and round the whole song is done with a mask quite literally which is a great to me very obvious symbol of rose-colored glasses oh my god look at how beautiful this is and then when they're off oh there's something much more sinister happening or this is not at all what I thought it was going to be every place that they go she ends up seeing Matt also there who is being tortured in some horrible way yeah this is the weirdest part of the show and this is I think part of the reason why people don't like this show because they're like what is happening here right did you ever see the movie mother exclamation point no with Jennifer Lawrence no oh no but I know what you're talking about so weird and really upsetting and I've heard so many people who were like viscerally angry for having watched that film and like every single time I'm yelling it was an allegory like you have to look beyond it and that's that is this moment here yeah where you're seeing this guy who in the first act saying you know the beautiful rain song yeah and now he's like being tortured and burned alive yeah and Louisa sees it and it's like oh my gosh is he okay it looks like he's on fire and El Gallo's like use the mask use the mask and then oh isn't it beautiful all the colors you know it's sort of that choosing what what to see and and how we go it's that blissful ignorance and yet it's not in youth it's not in the ignorance of youth it's out there in the world with adults yeah so yeah to me that is telling me once you grow up you don't have youth to blame for it anymore you are actively choosing to grab a mask and put it on and look through it and be like nope everything's fine that guy's burning over there there's racism over here and it's totally fine and it's a coping mechanism because you don't want to yeah it's a choice this show is so much about the avoidance of pain I'm realizing right now it's so hard to look pain in the face and I'm such a Brene Brown fan that's like straight from her from her yes I love her world but we do anything to avoid looking pain in the face and I think it's been happening all over the place this year politics aside just from a human place we don't like to see that much suffering and so we have really interesting ways of coping with it but one of them is by taking a mask and choosing to turn it into something else yeah and I think it's a great lesson you know you're never directly looking at it and Louisa is never directly seeing like oh that's Matt in pain or it's somebody else who got infected with it's not covid it's not my family it didn't happen to me or it can't happen to me you know that's another that's a story that's a this that's not and I think in some ways that's a coping mechanism for us because if you know absolutely and so otherwise it hurts yeah and then we don't want to be in pain now throughout the show Louisa has been wearing a necklace yes that's something that's introduced at the very beginning um it's her mother's necklace that she cherishes because her mother has passed away it's hinted at it's like her prized possession yeah and that's she wears it all through the show and at the very end of all of this El Gallo convinces her to give it to him yeah so they go on this whole adventure and she sort of falls in love with El Gallo for that not necessarily him as a person I think because that sort of love story is difficult and that she asks him to kiss her which I know as like an audience member is always like oh my god like no please don't please don't kiss her you're like oh god and he kisses her on the eyes and to me that's what she's always wanted yeah and to me that's the seal of she's done for she's going to give him that necklace and then he goes go pack we're going to continue our adventures together but I don't know if you'll come back I don't trust you it's that weird cat and mouse sort of manipulative thing and uh she gives him the necklace he takes the necklace and he's doing it as El Gallo in in the show but doing it as the narrator going this is the final lesson she needs to learn she comes back uh well first you see Matt come back and he's disheveled from his horrible adventures physically and emotionally and she comes back you know yelling El Gallo and uh she sees that he's gone and then it's that sinking in of that's been taken and uh yeah it's so it's devastating so heartbreaking El Gallo says there is a curious paradox that no one can explain who understands the secret of the reaping of the grain who understands why spring is born out of winter's laboring pain or why we all must die a bit before we grow again.

[1:09:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know it's so beautiful and what follows that too is I do not know the answer I merely know it's true I hurt them for that reason and myself a little bit too he's playing the narrator and going I hate that you have to learn this lesson I learned this lesson and yet it still hurts me you know and it's oh it's so good that curious paradox because that's what the whole show is and the allegory new words I'm learning.

[1:09:49] Madison Claire Parks: Okay so so Matt and Louisa meet up and they're both beaten up yeah in their own ways you know they set off to have these adventures and by gosh they had them they see each other and I think they appreciate each other anew yeah but just as they were meeting as equals before they're meeting as equals now yeah and I think it's also the first time they're seeing each other as people versus the idea of what the other person is to them.

[1:10:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh hallelujah boy is that a real thing you know and I think that's what's important and why they were you is my favorite moment in the show and we talk about this song oh my gosh the love it deserves because soon it's gonna rain takes all the love which again well well deserved but they were you is is so stunning and it's really I think like that kind of Claritin commercial where it's like the fog has lifted and you're like oh I can see again and uh and they really see each other for people and who that person is flaws and all and that that all is beautiful it's romantic it's like romantic in its truest sense yeah because you know when he sang metaphor at the beginning when he was coming up with all the words that he has that gorgeous melody of love you are love yeah and so then to revisit it here um with a whole new perspective you're like okay now it's romantic yeah and not this idea of what they thought romantic was and do you know what it is fantastic it is fantastic they are the fantastics yeah and I love the choice that it begins to snow at the end so I'm this is the last thing I'm gonna read yay and and it's what I read in the first but now that we've talked through it maybe it will ring true in a different way deep in December it's nice to remember although you know the snow will follow deep in December it's nice to remember without a hurt the heart is hollow deep in December it's nice to remember the fire of September that made us mellow deep in December our hearts should remember and follow yay and that's the fantastics everybody that's beautiful it's a pretty profound little piece of theater that has I think stood the test of time with help and um and it's okay to need help too you know it's okay to need help absolutely it can be an embodiment of what it's actually saying yeah absolutely which is own your mistakes and follow.

[1:12:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always if you have shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast you can always email me at a musical podcast at gmail.com be sure to rate review and subscribe to the podcast and follow us on social media at a musical podcast on twitter and instagram for lots of more great content lots of more good job Parsons that was awesome Maddy how do we follow you and everything you're up to?

[1:12:46] Madison Claire Parks: Oh um I use Instagram I have a website which is madisonclareparks.com and that's more the professional end of things gorgeous I was on it the other day oh thank you very much so that's my website and then Instagram is at maddieparks m-a-d-d-y p-a-r-k-s and that's where I do you know musical theater things but also normal life things and scroll endlessly to no abandon so those are the sort of social medias website and Instagram thank you for having me this was so I truly so fun and and poignant and and beautiful and touching and silly all of the above and what better show to do it with than the fantastics yeah so thank you for being a fantastic guest.

[1:13:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh thank you and everybody out there enjoy your December.