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[0:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You know, we all have our Disney movie that was sort of like, if you're born in the 90s, I really think you have your Disney movie that was like you just told us you're a little baby. Mine was Aladdin and The Hunchback of Notre Dame. And I think that there was something about Hunchback that just felt so real and scary and funny and heartfelt and the music was so beautiful. So the movie was really how it started. Esmeralda was also my crush growing up.

[0:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we're discussing the musical The Hunchback of Notre Dame, which is a musical requested by a few of our viewers, but I think we're going to get right into it today.

[0:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Today we're discussing the musical The Hunchback of Notre Dame, which is a musical requested by a few of you, including Jonah, who wrote us saying, quote, The Hunchback of Notre Dame. I'm going to say Notre Dame. I'm going to say Notre Dame. I'm going to say Notre Dame. It's all going to come out at some point, people, so just let this be my place of sanctuary. You hear what I'm saying?

[1:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So The Hunchback of Notre Dame is a fascinating show because it never made it to Broadway. I love the cast recording, and I think it's a fantastic adaptation, end quote. Thank you, Jonah, for writing in. Here to discuss it with me is someone who knows a thing or two about fantastic stage adaptations of famous novels. See what I did there?

[1:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Rodd Cyrus is currently playing Harry Houdini, master escapist, in the all-star cast of Ragtime, playing at the Vivian Beaumont in Lincoln Center. He's a Juilliard grad, speaking of Lincoln Center, and a veteran of City Center Encores, where he not only appeared in Ragtime before it transferred to Broadway, but also The Light in the Piazza. Everyone, please welcome Rodd Cyrus. Yay!

[1:59] Rodd Cyrus: Thanks for having me.

[2:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Obviously, the voices are insane, including yours. And on top of it all, you're dangling hundreds of feet in the air. That's got to be kind of fun. How's your wrist?

[2:39] Rodd Cyrus: It's a really good time. Thank God we have PT. That's so sweet. Yeah, no, it's not lost on me that I'm listening every day. Sometimes you're just sitting in your dressing room, I have long breaks, and then I just have a moment where I hear the show and I'm like, oh my god, everybody sounds the same every day. And it's so beautiful. It's not lost on me. I don't think this is normal to have this beautiful of music sung to you every day.

[3:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, look at your mug. Look at your Ragtime mug.

[3:09] Rodd Cyrus: I'm not trying to product placement. It's the only one that was clean. I promise.

[3:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's amazing. So yes, how long is it an open run then at this point?

[3:17] Rodd Cyrus: Well, no, so Lincoln Center doesn't do open. They'll sort of like we were supposed to be till January 4th, I believe, and now we're to the middle of June.

[3:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Incredible.

[3:27] Rodd Cyrus: It's totally. I mean, because as an actor, you're sort of like, this is, you know, I'm so used to like, what's the next job? Let me just keep finding the next thing. And then to kind of breathe and have, yeah, my shoulders lower so that I can like, no, I have a job till June, health insurance, like those crazy radical ideas. Yeah, it's really, it's a gift.

[3:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's incredible. Congratulations. I'm so happy for you.

[3:53] Rodd Cyrus: Thank you so much. Thanks. And thanks for coming.

[3:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: My pleasure. It's Ragtime. I mean, we're still talking about Ragtime, but I do think it's just so beautifully structured and written. All you really have to do is do it well. And I'll cry. You know what I mean? Like, just do the words and notes.

[4:10] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah, you made me think of this. I had a teacher in drama school who was sort of, she would say, like, right now it feels like the way that the theater's functioning is that a director comes in with this crazy concept. And we're trying to like throw concept onto a show. And she was like, you know what's like, I love her. She would get so pissed off. She's like, you know what a crazy concept is, is just doing the play.

[4:35] Rodd Cyrus: And if you really actually do the play, if you actually do the musical, that is a radical concept at this point in the where the theater is. And I do have to say our production is not like a take on Ragtime or some concept of like, you know what I mean? It really is just lifting the words and really just lifting the story in a way that you can hear everything.

[4:59] Rodd Cyrus: And unfortunately, fortunately, however way you want to look at it, our world right now is just making people so conscious of what's going on in the world and all of the issues and problems and what this country is and grappling with what it means to be an American. And so therefore, I feel like you can just really trust that people already have such a weighted relationship to their own American dream and therefore seeing it on stage is just making it that much more amplified.

[5:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well said. Yeah, I could feel that. No, but you can you can feel that from the audience. You can feel that they want to be validated in their feelings. And so you have characters like Mother and Cole House who stand up and have certain lines in the show and the audience just like can't help themselves. They're like, this is what I've been feeling.

[5:44] Rodd Cyrus: Totally. It just comes out of them. It's really fascinating to listen to.

[6:15] Rodd Cyrus: And that's why these, you know, that's why back to before means something different now than it did back in the day. It's not just an 11 o'clock number. It's like, oh, my God. No, we literally cannot go back.

[6:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, please. Please. Please. Yeah. Well, look, we're going to talk about another epic show, which honestly, I could talk about for hours because the layers of this musical are fascinating. And like Jonah, our listener said, it didn't even make it to Broadway. And yet it still has this epic story in terms of creation. And then, of course, the story within it. What is your relationship with Hunchback? I know you love it.

[6:52] Rodd Cyrus: I love it. I mean, to start out, it was that movie. You know, we all have our Disney movie that was sort of like if you're born in the 90s, I really think you have your Disney movie that was like you just told as your little baby. Mine was Aladdin and the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

[7:08] Rodd Cyrus: And I think that there was something about Hunchback that just felt so real and scary and funny and heartfelt. And the music was so beautiful. So the movie was really how it started. Esmeralda was also my crush growing up. So that helps. And then I come on. Yeah, the eyes, the dancing, the dancing, the dancing.

[7:33] Rodd Cyrus: She's so good. And then. Yeah. And then it was flash forward to college auditions out there was one of my audition songs for college. Flash forward to when I was living in. So I went to UCLA for my undergrad. And then I was like, you know, do I make the move to New York? Do I not? Do I do it? And I came out to New York to just do like a workshop of a show for a week.

[7:55] Rodd Cyrus: And while I was doing that, I auditioned for a regional production of the Hunchback of Notre Dame in Long Island. And I got it. I was playing Clopin like Topsy Turvy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[8:06] Rodd Cyrus: And I was like, oh, my God, am I moving to New York, I guess, to do the show. And I was like, I you know, if I don't move now, I guess it's time to move. And so Hunchback of Notre Dame is what brought me to New York. And then while I was doing I know. And while I was doing the show is when I was like, I feel still sort of like there's something more for me. There's something I haven't tried yet. I feel like this isn't really giving me exactly what I imagined for my life.

[8:33] Rodd Cyrus: What's the one thing I haven't tried? And I was like, I haven't tried grad school. So then I secretly auditioned for Juilliard and didn't tell anybody. And then I got in. And then I was like, wow, okay, now I'm really moving to New York. And I'm here for four more years. And then I haven't ever left. And so that's Wow. Kind of the long story short. Yeah.

[8:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: But like a transformative time for you in this show.

[9:15] Rodd Cyrus: I think I like New York.

[9:46] Rodd Cyrus: And she'd say yes. And then I would read about all of the movies that I couldn't see. And be really happy when there was something about Disney. Right?

[9:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah.

[9:56] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah, yeah.

[10:27] Rodd Cyrus: I was so confused by like, what was pissing people off about this little cartoon. And now that I look back on it as adult, there is this kind of strange dichotomy of talking gargoyles, and then psychosexual torture.

[10:45] Rodd Cyrus: Totally.

[10:47] Rodd Cyrus: There is this very, very light and dark to that film. That was incredibly ambitious, and ultimately really paid off for Disney. I mean, it was a huge hit. And like you said, was in all of our living rooms.

[11:01] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah, and I'm not shocked. It got an A plus because for I'm assuming that that critique is coming from adults, because I do think they were probably looking at these Disney films going like these are for kids. These are for kids. But the themes in this film are so adult. And I also I mean, maybe this is just my belief system is that I don't think we I don't think it's helpful to shutter children's eyes from these adult themes, because they will come to them inevitably.

[11:25] Rodd Cyrus: Like, there's so much in this that if you were to watch it now, you'd probably be like, Oh, my God, I watched this when I was a kid. But I, but I feel like, you know, you take out the things that you need as a kid. And I could feel that there was some weird energy from Frollo. I don't really know what he's singing about.

[11:40] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah, but there's something that he's like, not supposed to like, but he does like, and you know, I'm Persian. And, you know, my family's had to move and flee from revolutions and all of this stuff that it was like, I really felt for these Romani gypsy people of like, what it means to have to keep fleeing because you don't, you know, you're not wanted in this sort of these places.

[12:05] Rodd Cyrus: So, yeah, I think it also was maybe one of those movies where I saw someone, you know, who the people who looked like me, that's why maybe it was Aladdin and a Hunchback of Notre Dame.

[12:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a great. Well, you do kind of look like Aladdin.

[12:15] Rodd Cyrus: Thank you. So, yeah, no, I just think that maybe that's another reason why these two films were so like, Oh, my God, me. Can I do that?

[12:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mm hmm. One hundred percent.

[12:29] Rodd Cyrus: Honestly, the idea that Disney created an animated feature based on this, I think, was also a bit controversial to begin.

[12:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We should go back to Mr. Victor Hugo himself.

[12:40] Rodd Cyrus: You know, he's a pretty famous writer, pretty famous, especially for musical theater lovers.

[12:44] Rodd Cyrus: When you think about it, like most of the stuff has been musicalized.

[12:48] Rodd Cyrus: And as I've done more research, even when he was alive, he was working in operetta and opera and always had some sort of musical element in his writing.

[12:59] Rodd Cyrus: He was very, very connected to music.

[13:02] Rodd Cyrus: So I kind of love that posthumously all of his works have been musicalized.

[13:06] Rodd Cyrus: Totally, totally. Well, it's the grandioseness that feels like an orchestration needs to be underneath what he's he's writing.

[13:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, that's such a good way of saying it. Absolutely.

[13:15] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah. Now he wrote the novel Notre Dame de Pelly back in 1831.

[13:21] Rodd Cyrus: It was written during a particularly turbulent time in French culture where people were debating whether or not we should just tear everything down, tear down all those buildings.

[13:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I was reading about this, too.

[13:32] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah. Everyone out there, believe it or not, like he wrote this novel to make sure that Notre Dame wouldn't be torn down.

[13:38] Rodd Cyrus: That was the main intention of the book.

[13:41] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah, I read something that said it was like a love letter to Gothic architecture.

[13:45] Rodd Cyrus: And I was like, that is so romantic and so beautiful.

[13:49] Rodd Cyrus: And I don't know if you've been to Paris, but you can feel the way where Notre Dame sits in Paris is like, you know, there's the winding streets.

[13:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome to A Musical Theatre Podcast. Today, we’re diving into the world of "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" with our special guest, Rodd Cyrus.

[14:27] Rodd Cyrus: Thanks for having me, Jeff! I'm really excited to talk about this musical. It has such a rich history and a unique place in the Disney canon.

[14:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely! It's fascinating how "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" has become a beloved musical despite never having a Broadway run. What do you think contributes to its enduring popularity?

[15:07] Rodd Cyrus: I think it’s the depth of the story and the complexity of the characters. Quasimodo, Esmeralda, and Frollo all have such intricate arcs that resonate with audiences on many levels.

[15:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right! And the music is stunning. The score by Alan Menken is both beautiful and haunting. Do you have a favorite song from the musical?

[15:47] Rodd Cyrus: I really love "Out There." It captures Quasimodo's longing for acceptance and freedom so perfectly. The emotion in that song is palpable.

[16:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It really is a standout moment. The way it contrasts with the darker themes of the show is so powerful.

[16:27] Rodd Cyrus: Exactly! And I think that balance is what makes the musical so compelling. It tackles heavy themes like isolation and prejudice while still offering hope and redemption.

[16:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Speaking of themes, how do you think the original novel by Victor Hugo influences the musical adaptation?

[16:47] Rodd Cyrus: The novel is much darker and more tragic than the musical. While the musical does touch on those themes, it also adds a layer of hope and humanity that is more accessible for audiences.

[16:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's a great point. The adaptation really had to find a way to make the story resonate with a wider audience, especially considering its Disney roots.

[17:07] Rodd Cyrus: Absolutely! Disney has a knack for taking darker stories and infusing them with a sense of optimism. It’s a delicate balance, but they do it well.

[17:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And the visuals in the musical are stunning as well. The set design and costumes really bring the world of Notre Dame to life.

[17:37] Rodd Cyrus: Yes! The architecture of Notre Dame itself is almost a character in the story. It adds so much depth and atmosphere to the production.

[17:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I can only imagine how incredible it must be to perform in that world. What has your experience been like working on "The Hunchback of Notre Dame"?

[18:07] Rodd Cyrus: It’s been a dream come true. The music, the story, and the chance to portray such a complex character like Quasimodo is an incredible opportunity.

[18:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I can only imagine! And you’ve also been involved in other major productions, like "Ragtime." How do those experiences compare?

[18:27] Rodd Cyrus: Each show has its own unique challenges and rewards. "Ragtime" is a powerful piece that tackles social issues, while "Hunchback" is more about personal struggle and acceptance. Both are deeply impactful in their own ways.

[18:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That’s a wonderful perspective. It’s amazing how musical theatre can explore such a wide range of themes and emotions.

[18:57] Rodd Cyrus: Definitely! That’s what I love about this art form. It has the power to connect with people on a profound level.

[19:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well said! I’m excited to dive deeper into the specifics of "The Hunchback of Notre Dame" with you today.

[19:17] Rodd Cyrus: Me too! Let’s get into it!

[19:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Great! So, let’s start with the origins of the musical. How did it come to be adapted from the animated film?

[19:47] Rodd Cyrus: The transition from film to stage was quite a journey. It began with the success of the animated movie, which led to a desire to explore the story in a more theatrical way.

[20:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it premiered in Germany before making its way to other places, right?

[20:27] Rodd Cyrus: Yes! The German production was a significant step, and it helped to refine the show before it was brought to the U.S.

[20:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It’s interesting how different cultures interpret the same story.

[20:57] Rodd Cyrus: Exactly! Each production brings its own flavor and perspective, which can really enhance the storytelling.

[21:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Speaking of storytelling, what do you think is the core message of "The Hunchback of Notre Dame"?

[21:27] Rodd Cyrus: I believe it’s about acceptance and understanding. It challenges us to look beyond appearances and to embrace our differences.

[21:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That’s a powerful message, especially in today’s world.

[22:07] Rodd Cyrus: Absolutely! It’s timeless and resonates with audiences of all ages.

[22:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I’m looking forward to discussing more about the characters and their journeys.

[22:47] Rodd Cyrus: Me too! There’s so much to unpack.

[23:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Let’s dive into Quasimodo’s character next. What do you think makes him such a compelling protagonist?

[23:27] Rodd Cyrus: Quasimodo’s vulnerability and strength make him relatable. He embodies the struggle for acceptance and love, which is something everyone can connect with.

[23:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well said! His journey is both heartbreaking and inspiring.

[24:07] Rodd Cyrus: Exactly! And the way he finds his voice throughout the story is truly moving.

[24:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I can’t wait to hear more about your insights on the other characters as well.

[24:47] Rodd Cyrus: There’s so much depth to explore, especially with Esmeralda and Frollo.

[25:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Let’s get into that after a quick break.

[25:27] Rodd Cyrus: Sounds good!

[25:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Stay tuned, everyone! We’ll be right back to continue our discussion on "The Hunchback of Notre Dame."

[27:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And then it doesn't go to Broadway. They make the decision not to take it. I don't know why, other than they maybe thought that it wasn't going to be a big enough hit to do it. However, I do want to play a little like what if game. Let's do the what if game. So if it premiered on Broadway in 2015. 2015 Fun Home. Fun Home. The best musical nominees of the 20 words are Fun Home, An American in Paris, Something Rotten! And The Visit. Oh, that year. I mean, I think there's a place for it. I think so, too. I'm like kind of sitting there being like looking back on it. I'm like, I think it would have cleaned up quite a bit at the Tony Awards. Well, fascinating, because I feel after having done the production that I did and being in it, I have my own thoughts, I guess, on like why I feel like it needed more.

Or I guess maybe the differences is like really interesting in this conversation. Like in what we've talked about thus far about what we love about the movie and what got us excited about it. I feel like those things were not in the musical. Like the gargoyles have turned into a choir of gargoyles who also play the ensemble, who also do this thing. So you've removed the three.

[28:56] Rodd Cyrus: Exactly. But you've removed the three that became our friends in the movie in the same way where I will also die by this thesis that our favorite things about Disney movies are the villain and the sidekicks.

[29:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. It's a great point. The two, three sidekicks like we love Mushu. We love Pain and Panic and Hate in Hercules. And I think the three when you've removed the three gargoyles, they also become the ensemble. It's more, I guess, similar to what Victor Hugo wrote in the novel, but you're kind of taking away the like playful, human, jokey, lovely levity and friendship that you feel like you found with Quasimodo and his friends. It also goes back to the controversy that we were talking about with the original animated film, which is that Victor Hugo purists were like, what is this?

[29:52] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah. What actually is this? And so, it does feel like the intention with the stage version was, all right, we want it to be a little bit more inspired by the actual novel. And I think that that is what the script says. It's like The Hunchback of Notre Dame inspired by the Victor Hugo novel and Disney film. It doesn't say Disney's The Hunchback of Notre Dame in the same way that it says Disney's Tarzan or Disney's The Little Mermaid or all of those other things.

[30:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Interesting.

[30:30] Rodd Cyrus: So, it holds a unique place in Disney stage adaptations. And I also think it's one of my favorites. Every time I've seen it, I feel like it's been very effective.

[30:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: When you see a production of Hunchback?

[30:45] Rodd Cyrus: Of Hunchback, yeah.

[30:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. I mean, the music, you can't deny the music, and I really do think it comes down to the staging, or it comes down to the direction, and it comes down to the cast. Because have you seen bootlegs of the La Jolla version?

[31:01] Rodd Cyrus: I haven't.

[31:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, because it's like a choir. It feels sort of one of those, like, we're all an ensemble, and now we're going to go into telling this story. And you know, Michael Arden, infamously, is playing Quasimodo. He has some paint in his hand, I believe. So, he's sort of like standing there with everybody, and then he rubs his face, and then hunches over and is like, now become...

[31:21] Rodd Cyrus: And now there's the deformity.

[31:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. And it's now become Quasimodo. But there was also this amazing, there's the bootlegs that I've seen, too, of this amazing production, I think it's Fifth Avenue in Seattle, where Quasimodo is played by a deaf actor, and someone else is singing his vocals.

[31:39] Rodd Cyrus: Yes.

[31:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which that I find to be so inspired and amazing.

[31:43] Rodd Cyrus: Incredible. And that actually began with Arden. And I find this also fascinating, because I don't know what Michael Arden, now two-time Tony-winning Best Director, he was playing Hunchback in La Jolla, and in researching and reading the novel, it suddenly came to him, or he felt very strongly that, like, ringing those bells every day, that Quasi had become deaf, right? Had some sort of hearing loss, and that it was reflected in the novel. And so then, and I think that even originally with the, see, there's so much to this story of this musical.

[32:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Massive, yeah.

[32:24] Rodd Cyrus: But even when they were doing the animated film, figuring out what Quasimodo was going to sound like, was he going to have some sort of speech impediment or impairment? They decided no, ultimately, for the animated film. But then even with Arden, like, figuring out how does he sound to his gargoyle friends versus how does he sound to everyone else who may be from the more normative hearing world? Those were, I think, things that they struggled over, like going back and forth trying to find the right balance. And I wonder, like I said, I don't know Arden well, but I wonder if being interested in the deaf experience reflected in musical theater inspired him in any way to lead that revival of Spring Awakening through Deaf West, which was certainly his big premiere on, in terms of being a director on Broadway, and has led to so many other incredible things. I like, in a fan fiction sort of way, thinking that Hunchback was this, like you, a very important moment in his career, in figuring out what he likes to explore in the theater.

[33:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Anyway, and like you said, so then Fifth Avenue, which by the way, shout out our Warpaint guest, Caden Zane, his boyfriend, his partner, is the one who was playing Quasimodo in that. He's a deaf actor. So, it seemed like such a beautiful, beautiful production that was then, it was done similarly, yes, in La Mirada.

[34:05] Rodd Cyrus: La Mirada. Worked there.

[34:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which by the way, we probably have so many friends. Are you from LA?

[34:12] Rodd Cyrus: I lived in LA for like 13 years, I'm sure. When were you at UCLA?

[34:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I was at UCLA, I was 2013 to 2017.

[34:20] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah, no, we were there at the same time.

[34:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Did you go to UCLA or are you living in LA?

[34:24] Rodd Cyrus: No, I was living in LA.

[34:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay.

[34:27] Rodd Cyrus: Crazy. Yeah, I'm sure we know so many friends. Okay, so where were we? I don't even remember.

[34:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Michael Arden, we finished the production, they moved in, they did it at La Mirada.

[34:38] Rodd Cyrus: Yes, they did it at La Mirada. This show has been living on regionally, of course, despite not having its Broadway run and now has been requested. So, I'm ready to go through this thing a little bit with you if you're down.

[34:50] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Please.

[34:52] Rodd Cyrus: Okay, here's my next little spiel that I want to go on. In going through the show with the intention of doing this episode, I realized how much Stephen Schwartz is in this show. When you zoom out and look at some of these moments, you're like, oh, this wouldn't have happened without Schwartz. Right here at the top, the story before the story where we find out about Frollo and his brother, Jehan. Is that how you say it?

[35:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, yeah. Jehan. Yeah, I think so.

[35:24] Rodd Cyrus: They are really close. Anyway, we'll get into it. It feels so Prince of Egypt-like. It feels so Wicked-like.

[35:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I've been thinking Prince of Egypt this entire time that you've been talking, just how related they are about the religion and the way that it comes in.

[35:38] Rodd Cyrus: That's a great point. So, I think of this show a lot as one of Alan Menken's finest scores, but I think we can't underestimate the influence that Stephen Schwartz had in the musicalization, not just lyrically. This was also during his time where he wasn't really composing. He was the lyricist with Alan Menken, both on Pocahontas.

[35:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, and I just watched an interview that he did saying that he really was like, I'm just moving to LA. I just didn't want to work on films. And he was doing that. And then he was in Hawaii and someone told him to read this book Wicked, and that's what really brought him back in the late 90s.

[36:17] Rodd Cyrus: Wow. Go figure.

[36:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Go figure.

[36:20] Rodd Cyrus: Go figure. So, the show begins, like we've been saying, very Shakespearean. This group of actors appears on stage saying, this is the story we're about to tell, also Latin. And then, kind of the first character we meet is Frollo, who is maybe one of the greatest Disney villains that we never talked about.

[36:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Could not agree more. Totally.

[36:44] Rodd Cyrus: We talk about Maleficent, we talk about Cruella de Vil, but Frollo, man.

[36:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, it's because I think people actually don't know how to grapple with it.

[36:53] Rodd Cyrus: Grapple with it because the themes are so real.

[36:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that's very true.

[36:57] Rodd Cyrus: It's easy to be like, oh, I'm so interested in talking about him in the world and why I would love to talk about him more because I do think that these are themes that, I'm sorry, but talking about lust and religion and how those interweave inside of him is, a tale as old as time and also something that feels still taboo to talk about when we know that that's unfortunately just such a part of it.

[37:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Shame is such a motivator for him, if we're going maybe the Brene Brown route.

[37:33] Rodd Cyrus: Sure.

[37:34] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it's cemented right here from the beginning. He and his brother are super close. They are taken in by an archbishop or some sort of religious figure and are taught the ways of being just and good. And his brother feels called to a little bit more of an artistic community, to say the least.

[37:58] Rodd Cyrus: And the community then and maybe most popularly is known as gypsies, but we now know that that is a term that is offensive.

[38:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So, the Romani community is what we usually say now.

[38:13] Rodd Cyrus: He gets involved with them, falls in love with a girl. They have a child because they are driven out of every city they go to. They move around, around, around, and ultimately they fall ill with pox. And so, the next time that Frollo, during that time, he's climbed the ranks of the church and now has position and power. And when he sneaks out to finally see his brother after all these years, his brother is dying.

[38:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And immediately, and this is as someone who is still religious and grew up religious, Boyd did this strike a chord with me where he says, this is your punishment. We're always looking to justify why we have suffering in the world. And I feel like one of the traps in religion is that we then point to consequence or a curse or accountability as a way to displace our own sadness about suffering.

[39:17] Rodd Cyrus: It's so devastating to look at your brother who's dying of pox, whose wife has died, who has this child. And instead of dealing with those feelings, it's so much easier to just say, God's punishing you for having left.

[39:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Totally. That moment informs his character for the entire rest of the piece.

[39:38] Rodd Cyrus: He's always looking to do something with what he feels on the inside. It's usually never pious. It's usually never out of charity. It's always out of this shame and displacement. And so, the one thing he does do is he agrees to take on this baby of his brother's who is Quasimodo.

[40:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And he kind of makes this solemn promise to himself that he will raise him to be the man, the person, the monster, whatever, that his brother never could have been. So, now he's put into the bell tower to be in charge of that. Frollo is the only person that he sees, and he teaches him all of the ways of his religious convictions. Does that sound about right?

[40:32] Rodd Cyrus: It sounds about right. What's funny is as you're saying all this, I'm seeing the difference between what happens in the movie just in the first five minutes.

[40:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The first five minutes of the movie, it starts out with the puppet show that Clopin is doing, where he's explaining, you know what I mean? He's like, this is the Frollo, and then he's like, and now here, and then you go into the story, and then you have that moment where Frollo sees Quasimodo's mom.

[40:58] Rodd Cyrus: There is no Frollo brother in the movie.

[41:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, it's really just Frollo attacking the Romani people.

[41:05] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah, and then he's like running, you know, it's that epic scene where he's on the horse and she's running holding her baby, which is also so giving Prince of Egypt with the mom running with the baby.

[41:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're so right.

[41:18] Rodd Cyrus: And then somehow she dies, hits her head, I don't know, and then he's left with the baby and is about to put it over the well.

[41:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: In the well.

[41:26] Rodd Cyrus: In the well, and then he, well, he looks at it, sees what it looks like, and then puts it over the well, and then that's when the archbishop or whoever, the man who runs the church, man.

[41:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: David Ogden Stiers.

[41:40] Rodd Cyrus: It's Cogsworth, that's all I know.

[41:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, right, right. And then he's like, wait, and then he's like, you know, and then Frollo takes the baby and then that's sort of how it starts.

[41:52] Rodd Cyrus: I mean, essentially, the Disney movie, that first five minutes, is addressing racism and his phobia of disabled people immediately. And I'm just sort of like, why is that a thing that needs to be run away from? And I'm saying like, obviously those are things we don't want, but we need to showcase them in a way for people to know that that's actually what happened. People were that way. And I'm saying this as someone who's in a musical where the N-word is used multiple times, and there was a lot of conversation about that's what it was back in the day, and that's why Cole House's life was so hard. And I think that's why people come and see the show and are overwhelmingly heartbroken, because we're not running away from these things that unfortunately were and still are so real.

And so anyway, I'm like, we're three-dimensionalizing him in the musical by being like his brother died, and therefore all of this, and this is his backstory to try and empathize with him. And I feel like it's a different way of empathy, not empathy, because I think then people have to qualify their own racism and their own, you know, there's a word for it, but like phobia against disabled people and their bigotry and all of those things, because you see it inside of this guy. Anyway, just that it is interesting to go from how we see it in the movie where he just feels evil, and that's the way that he begins, and then the choice to give him a family, you know what I mean, and why he is the way that he is, is just interesting to me. And I don't know which one actually helps us more. There is a lot of racism in the stage version, in terms of exploring it, but it almost takes a backseat to inner turmoil.

[43:37] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah, and once again, this is all to say that I'm not condoning racism at all, I'm just saying that it's unfortunately the reason why the Romani people are still ostracized. If you go to Paris, the racism there is crazy when it comes to these people who you still see, and there's still beggars on the streets, and there's still people who cannot find a way into society, and I think it's because of just this prejudice that's been there for so long, rather than being like, oh, his brother died, and therefore this. I'm like, for years and years and years, these people have had to flee and move, and for me, the movie makes me ask that question, why, more than me believing that he's this way because of his brother, and that's his own inner, like you're saying, inner turmoil. It's a fascinating question, for sure.

[44:27] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah. In terms of music, this opening, the Bells of Notre Dame, is stunning. No notes, absolutely glorious. We follow it up with Out There, which is a perfect song for Quasi, and once again, he's talking to his statues, they made a really interesting choice in La Jolla that however he is heard by the humans around him, he sings beautifully when it's only the Garfos. Or whenever we're hearing what's in his heart. It's a purer sound than what some of his physical ailments allow him to make, which is heartbreaking and really sweet. This is all happening at the beginning of the year, which coincides with the Feast of Fools, and that is, as the song says, in Topsy Turvy, once a year, we turn all Paris upside down. Frollo hates it, of course, but it is the one time where it seems like the Romani people have an opportunity to just...

[45:35] Rodd Cyrus: The upper hand. Because they are the entertainment, they are the cultural movers, as is so often the case with people who are being judged, marginalized, and Quasimodo decides to go down to the Feast of Fools, where they crown the king. It's usually the person who can make the ugliest face, and he naturally has one, to be perfectly blunt. It's really fascinating, this first interaction between him and Esmeralda, who is a Romani dancer, who I'm sure has been ostracized in her own way. When she sees him, it's her idea for him to enter the contest. And she says something like, well, you got the face, you might as well use what you got. And, like, why not be king for a day? It's both opportunistic and non-judgmental at the same time, which is fascinating and also really indicative, I think, of her experience.

Where, regardless of what I feel and what I want, I know that I'm sexy and I'm a great dancer, and so I'm going to use it. She's so sexualized, and she's learned that in this society, that's a commodity that she can use to her benefit.

[46:59] Rodd Cyrus: And these people have to find any way to use their thing, and we can judge them and go, she's using her body for dancing or whatever she's doing. She has a tambourine, everyone look out. Look out for that tambourine. I think at that point, when you are so marginalized, you're kind of like, what are the tools that I have, and how can I find any way to get out of this situation? And I think that she knows that better than anybody. Her dancing is enough to attract quite a few gentlemen, including Quasimodo, who is taken by the fact that she wasn't afraid of him. Frollo, who sees her dance and has all of the stirrings down below. Good old Phoebus. And then Phoebus, good old Phoebus, who actually is kind of a smaller character in the Hugo novel. They amped him up a little bit. His song in the musical, I find really interesting.

[48:05] Rodd Cyrus: What is it, Rest and Relaxation? Yeah, that's funny. Because, I mean, he's like a guest on sort of character, right? But they do, once again, try to humanize him a little bit by saying he's taking this post, having been in war, having seen atrocities. And he's like, I'm so grateful that I have now received this position where I can just kind of chill out. I do not want to go back to war. I'm sick of seeing those injustices. And so they're planting the seeds that he has kind of had it with violence, with using it to control people. You know, there's something more there. He's also incredibly horny because he's been at war. So he's excited to go to all the brothels. He loves the Romani people for that reason. Totally. And he's really into Esmeralda. The rest of the first act, which so many great songs. That one in the tavern. What is it?

[49:49] Rodd Cyrus: Oh, yeah. I can't remember how it goes. Oh, yeah, that one. Yeah, I should remember. That was the only other number I really did. Oh, well, there was another one, but the tavern number. Yes, the tavern number. Was it the Rhythm of the Tambourine? Rhythm of the Tambourine is hers, which also is very coded to Dance to the Day in Prince of Egypt, once again. But no, let me see. What is it called? It has an interesting name. Tavern Song. There it is. Taimolpia. Oh, yeah, that. Okay. See what's so funny? Yes. Thank you for reminding me of the song. When we were working on the show in Long Island, I remember saying, you know, because we were doing the tavern song. And then they were like, can you guys just throw out some like, you know, make sound during the dance break.

Oh, sure. And people were like, whoo, yeah. And I was like, kind of sitting there. I was like, can we find like what they would have said? You know what I mean? Like, what would be sort of like authentically grounding it inside of what these Romani people would have talked like?

[50:59] Rodd Cyrus: And then my assignment became sort of like cultural. You're like dramaturge. I was like, okay, I guess I'm doing this. But it was kind of lovely to sort of like research the Romani people and be like, what were they actually, you know, what were the things that they would have said? And somehow I found some article that was like, it was more, I remember like yip, like yee, like was more of a sound instead of like a whoo. It was more like, like a lighter, you know, because every language, it's really fascinating when you do accent. I remember in school doing so much accent work, and there's always a resting point where people make a thinking sound. And in different languages, it's a different sound. Like in English, we go, uh, that's like our resting. And then in like Farsi, which I speak is more like eh, eh, you know. And so every, you know, seeing where people's mouths actually want to sit.

[52:41] Rodd Cyrus: And so I remember in this trying to find anything that we could to sort of make it more authentic. That's so cool. I love that. Because this song, when this song got added, it was like, why not? This is our opportunity to do that. Same thing for me and West Side Story. Whenever they're doing American, all of a sudden they're like, and you're like, well, that's not Puerto Rican at all. But thanks for playing. I like that they tried. I mean, there is no real Romani culture represented at all in the animated film. And I think that both in Rhythm of the Tambourine, in the Tavern song, and then even in some of the songs in the second act, they really tried to bring more of a sound, an authentic sound to the score.

[53:59] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah, they did. I mean, it's interesting because musically, I do find that there's some themes that feel really sort of like, I don't know, Romani-ish in the way that, you know, in Prince of Egypt, you get like these Egyptian sort of melodies that come in. So I don't know, because I think, my memory, I did this show so long ago, but I remember that there was some like in A Court of Miracles or something, when you sort of get to there, I know I'm flashing forward, but when you get to where the Romani people are hiding, that there are some more themes musically.

[55:01] Rodd Cyrus: You're absolutely right. Than the movie. 100%. Yeah. As Meryl is dancing, all of their connections to her give way to Hellfire, which may be the most controversial moment of the original film. It's maybe one of the moments that is most true to the animated film. They didn't really have to do much to it. Like, that's kind of how complex it was to begin with. He feels lust for this woman, as I feel like so many marginalized communities are sexualized and thought of as only being there to please. Exoticized. Exoticized, yes, exactly. So he's feeling these feelings, and then instead of taking accountability for it, once again, he has to blame someone and blames her. And so this infatuation of Frollo's for her becomes this back and forth of wanting to save her or wanting to kill her. It's really intense.

[55:48] Rodd Cyrus: Every Christmas event, every, you know what I mean? Every charity event, everything all the time, because it really is such a prayer. The purest prayer that's been said in that cathedral is by the person who has never stepped foot in it. Partially because she's never been invited. She would have never been invited, you know.

[56:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, totally.

[56:19] Rodd Cyrus: And yet, like, when you think of the spirit that she brings to the place.

[56:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Totally, totally. And then you have Quasimodo hearing her sing.

[56:28] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah.

[56:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's really the first time he sort of, like, really gets what she's about.

[56:34] Rodd Cyrus: That's a great point, too.

[56:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, it's such a beautiful song.

[56:36] Rodd Cyrus: Deepens their connection even more.

[56:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[56:40] Rodd Cyrus: The second act is really interesting, because once again, the things that Frollo has taught him, he's been listening. But he's been listening with the heart of a humble student. And so he's actually learning these lessons and using them in a way that Frollo would never approve of, which I find very inspired and once again, very connected to my life. But there's this whole flight into Egypt thing, where Frollo has been teaching him the story of how an angel appeared to Joseph and Mary after Christ was born, and told them to leave the city and to flee into Egypt. And because they did so, they missed the whole Herod killing all of the children. Quasi has this idea of, like, I need to follow the example of the angels and the saints who saved baby Jesus by helping this woman who has looked after me and who he's starting to feel a connection to.

So he, in his own way, is trying to save her amidst this hunt that Frollo has set into motion. The other thing is that Phoebus, in the midst of all of this, has been stabbed by Frollo. Because if you remember that awful scene, Frollo requires Phoebus to set the brothel on fire. And he won't do it. Once again, kind of a fulfillment of those little seeds where he's like, I'm done with violence. I'm done. Frollo has blamed it on Esmeralda. So that's kind of how he, one of the other ways that he's been able to fuel the fire of this war against the Romani people is saying that she's the one responsible for Phoebus being stabbed. Esmeralda hides Phoebus with Quasimodo, as Quasimodo is wanting to find and save Esmeralda.

And Phoebus accompanies them, even though he's really wounded. How much do you get like a love triangle vibe? Because I always think I can't tell if it's the actor playing it or if it's in the script or if it is the direction of just like how much Quasimodo wants Esmeralda and how much she's... Do you know what I mean?

[59:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's a great question. I guess it just depends on the viewer, but it is fascinating to me because you really could heighten it and have him be extremely... Because I think in the movie, it feels like he's romantically interested in her. And then he sees Phoebus and Esmeralda having like some sort of affectionate moment. And then he's like, I'm not that girl. I'll never, I'm not that girl.

[59:32] Rodd Cyrus: Exactly. But it's less in the musical. Yeah. Anyway, I think it's meant to be, I don't know, this is me putting words in other people's mouths, but it does feel to me to be the antithesis of Frollo's connection to her. Quasi is of course taken by her dancing, but he's taken by her kindness much more. And so it feels like love, but I think it's more of a pure love. I don't know if... Well, that's why you have Hunchback of Notre Dame 2, where he... Where he partners up.

[1:00:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Where he partners up, kind of. Yeah. Okay. Fascinating. Because I always am just sitting there sort of being like, am I supposed to pick up on that theme? Do I feel like I'm... Because there is some contention between him and Phoebus. There's competition for her attention.

[1:00:36] Rodd Cyrus: Okay. That I think is there. But let's be clear. I don't think it's so much a love triangle as it is a third wheel situation.

[1:00:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Totally. And Quasi sees Phoebus as the third wheel and Phoebus sees Quasi as the third wheel.

[1:00:49] Rodd Cyrus: Ah, fantastic. Agreed. They are able to find... This is a very plot heavy show now that I'm like talking through it. My gosh, so much happens. She has given them this necklace that's one of my favorite parts of the film. That when you look from his tower, using this necklace, you can actually see that it's a map of the city that leads them to the Court of Miracles, which is where all the Romani people are hiding during this little mini war. Unfortunately, them going there shows Frollo where everyone is. And so, Esmeralda is arrested for witchcraft. She's about to be put to death. Quasi is devastated because his best intentions to save her and do the right thing have backfired. And so, he has his own no good deed goes unpunished with this incredible song called Maid of Stone. That high note at the end. Could you sing this role?

[1:02:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I think so. Yeah. If I actually wanted to do it, it's like set my life up. If I set my life up, I could. Like I remember actually when I auditioned for this production of Long Island, I actually came in for Quasimodo originally. Yeah. And I remember doing it. I was like, Oh, I actually like singing this. This is because it feels more of an acting forward thing, but it's a hard thing. It's a heavy thing. And when you think of the physicality on top of it, when do you ever get to stand up straight and hit these notes? I don't think that happens. Anyway, it's a challenging, challenging thing. What else is there? So, Phoebus and Esmeralda are connecting. They sing Someday, which of course was only sung by All for One in the animated film. And then just kind of skipping to the end, she is put on what is it called? The stakes?

[1:03:41] Rodd Cyrus: The stakes. Yeah. The fire pit stake.

[1:03:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And it's like a pyre, a P-Y-R-E. Yeah. Is that what it's called? I think so. Anyway, she's put there, lit the flames. Quasi comes down, saves her, brings her to Notre Dame in Yale Sanctuary, which makes me cry every time. Unfortunately, it's too late. She essentially dies in his arms from smoke inhalation. Talk to me about this ending. How do you feel about this ending? Because of course, in the animated film, Phoebus and Esmeralda live happily ever after, and Quasi goes back to his statues.

[1:04:36] Rodd Cyrus: Right. She dies, and then he kills Frollo.

[1:04:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Frollo. He throws... Yep. Right. And then... Frollo has taught him to be very strong by ringing those bells, so then he can basically pick him up and throw him off the parapet.

[1:04:50] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah. I just am such a... Well, what happens in the book? That is what happens.

[1:04:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Same. I really love this ending. I think it's incredibly poetic. So, this Shakespearean troupe, the congregation, if you will, step forward and say this little epilogue that he brought her body down into the square for everyone to see. And then years and years later, in the catacombs of Paris, they found two skeletons. One which had the woven necklace, so we know that that's Esmeralda, and then one with a crooked spine who was holding her. And when they moved the skeleton away, that one turned to dust. I'm like, oh my gosh. It chokes me up because it's such a sad ending, and yet so beautiful. With his last dying breath, he was holding on to her and protecting her.

[1:05:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Well, that's the word. He feels like such a protector and so selfless. And I think if we really tie it all the way back to this being Victor Hugo's sort of protection over the Gothic architecture of France, of Paris, then Quasimodo, essentially what he's doing is sort of holding, protecting the spirit of...

[1:06:01] Rodd Cyrus: Of what that place is, the sanctuary.

[1:06:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of what that place is, and what she meant to him, and therefore what Notre Dame meant to Victor Hugo.

[1:06:08] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah. That's a fascinating way to sort of see, because he kind of does become the protector and the spirit of what these walls mean and sanctuary. He becomes sanctuary, you know what I mean? There's so much metaphor.

[1:06:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: He is the sanctuary. That's so true.

[1:06:22] Rodd Cyrus: I forget what happens to Phoebus. Does he die as well? I don't know. I can't remember.

[1:06:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I don't know. Yeah, it is really interesting. I also, you know, I'm coming from doing this musical. I don't think I'm giving stuff away, because if you don't know Ragtime at this point, that's wild. Spoiler.

[1:06:34] Rodd Cyrus: But it is really hard to watch that ending every day. Sometimes I wish that Coalhouse and Sarah get to take their child and raise them themselves. That is my dream, actually. Can you imagine Ragtime if you didn't have the cute little child at the end?

[1:06:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No. Well, great. And I'm sort of like, yeah, I think so. I'm grappling right now with what I want in the ending of a musical of people right now who are, you know, doing a lot of suffering in our world and kind of wanting them to have a happy ending right now is sort of how I'm feeling. Because there's so much tragedy already in the world that I'm sort of, yeah, I don't know. I kind of right now maybe would pick the Disney ending and go like, I love that she's alive. I'm tired. I don't need to watch more death. But at the same time, it is such a beautiful ending. And I think that just depending on where the world is, is when I want a different ending. Maybe next year, I'll feel a different way or next month or next week.

[1:07:36] Rodd Cyrus: Honestly, this is maybe my favorite take that I didn't see coming from this musical, is that with how the world is, and I feel like any moment I can be in a rabbit hole of like, what does future even mean? Especially in the United States. I have two different versions of Hunchback of Notre Dame that I can go to, right? Where you're like, oh, I can't, I can't. I want to hear this score. But I need this ending this time.

[1:07:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. And I think that it will just change depending on where our world is and what it feels like we want and need.

[1:08:06] Rodd Cyrus: That's great. Rod, thank you so much for doing this with me.

[1:08:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my god, thanks for having me. This was, I want to do this about every show. I just want to pick your brain and just chat about them. But I guess that's why you have a podcast.

[1:08:17] Rodd Cyrus: That's why we have the pod, baby. No, I'm really grateful for these conversations, because I think they reveal so much about just about life in general. And I'm grateful that artists like you are being brave enough to go and tell that story at times, because I know it's exhausting. But in case you need any motivation, you're doing the Lord's work. You're turning that theater into a sanctuary.

[1:08:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you so much. As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can email me at amusicalpodcast@gmail.com. I'll put those musicals on the list. I promise. I also promise you'll have a great time if you join us at Patreon exclamation point, where for only a few dollars a month, you gain access to bonus episodes, essays, polls, patreon.com slash amusicalpodcast to join our wonderful community over there. We're also on social media, so please share our episodes so that the community can grow as wide and big as possible. We're on both Instagram and TikTok. And if you want to give back, be sure to check out our designs on our TeePublic store, the profits we receive from those, we donate to Broadway Cares, Equity Fights AIDS.

More than anything, though, thank you for being here and for listening. Rod, before you leave, please tell us, how do we follow you? And anything you want to plug? I mean, obviously, besides the incredible production of Ragtime that you're in.

[1:09:06] Rodd Cyrus: Yeah, you can follow me at Rod Cyrus. Come see us at the Vivian Beaumont Theater at Lincoln Center eight times a week. We're there till the middle of June. Thank you guys for listening. And thank you, truly, truly, thank you for doing this. It's so lovely to get to chat about this art form that we love so much, that I think to get to analyze it on a packet is just so fun. So thanks.

[1:09:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate all of your thoughts and perspectives and knowledge of Disney sequels. Everybody out there, thank you for listening. And remember, God help the outcasts. Amen.