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[0:00] Mark Eden Horowitz: There are not that many letters from Oscar to Richard Rodgers, but Oscar went to Australia for the Olympics, and he and Rodgers at the time were working on Cinderella. They were actually collaborating via mail, particularly on the song, Do I Love You Because You're Beautiful. Oh my gosh. Not exactly Zoom technology to be writing a classic song via mail. But in this letter where they're working on the song, there's sort of an aside that Oscar writes to Rodgers that I just find very touching. This is November 28th, 1956. Dear Dick, last night I saw the picture of The King and I again. This morning I am convinced that this is our best work. I have a kind of humble feeling of not knowing how we did it. It has more wisdom as well as heart than any other musical play by anybody. It will remain modern long after any of our other plays. It seems to me to be far in advance of them in its mental and emotional adulthood.

[1:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh. I mean, whether or not it's true, I just want to feel that way about something I do in my life. Welcome everybody to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today we are discussing Rodgers and Hammerstein's The King and I, a musical that everyone agrees has aged perfectly. I'm kidding, of course. Despite having a very well-received Broadway revival only three or four years ago, many people believe this show should not be performed ever, including, might I add, the entire country of Thailand. So, we will be making space for that conversation today.

The thing is, there is also so much important musical theater history that was created with and for The King and I, so I really want to dig into that context as well. Here to speak with me about this and so much more is someone who is very well acquainted with history. He's literally surrounded by it all day every day. His new book, The Letters of Oscar Hammerstein, is out May 1st. Everyone, please welcome Mark Eden Horowitz. Mark, it's such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you for coming and chatting with me.

[2:46] Mark Eden Horowitz: Thank you for having me, Geoff.

[2:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, for those who might not know what you do, and I'm including myself because you're the first person I've met from the Library of Congress, can you briefly break down your entire life's work?

[2:59] Mark Eden Horowitz: Sure. I'm an incredibly lucky fellow. I've worked at the Library of Congress for 31 years now. I'm a senior music specialist in the music division and my specialty is musical theater and most of what I do relates to that. What people are not as aware of as they should, just the music division of the library has about 25 million items. Among those items are about 500 to 600 special collections, which are the papers of composers, lyricists, performers, directors, musicians. It runs the gamut. In the world of musical theater, it includes the papers of Jerome Kern, Richard Rogers, Cole Porter, Leonard Bernstein, Jonathan Larson, Howard Ashman, Lerner and Lowe, George and Ira Gershwin. It's really remarkable.

What I get to do mostly, there are sort of four aspects to my job. I acquire collections for the library. I got the Ashman collection, the Larson collection, the Adam Ghetto collection, the Jeanine Tesori collection. I process collections, which means I'm one of the people who opens the cartons and the cases and the drawers that were dumped into boxes. We organize, sort, identify, preserve the material. We create finding aids so that people can find those stuff when the researchers come. I help researchers is the third thing. The fourth thing is I get to do special projects like producing concerts or exhibits, things like that. As I said, I'm a very lucky fellow.

[4:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh. To be surrounded by that kind of wisdom and experience has got to be overwhelming at times.

[5:01] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah. The thing is you also develop, it's something I did not expect when I started the job, but you sort of almost become friends with some of these people. There are people whose collections I've worked on and I feel after spending a year with somebody's papers that I know them better than I know my own father or something. You get to know them in an intimate way that it's unlike anything else. Sometimes you feel their ghost sort of over your shoulder as you're working.

[5:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Forgive me, I don't know. One of your first books, if not your first book, was about Sondheim, right?

[5:36] Mark Eden Horowitz: I've only had one other book and it's Sondheim on Music and it was transcripts of interviews I did with Sondheim for the library. I had been interacting with Sondheim and discussing the possibility of his papers coming to the library. As part of that, I got the idea that wouldn't it be great to be able to talk to him with his manuscripts and ask questions that I envisioned future researchers might wanting to be able to ask when they came to look at his manuscripts. I got a grant to do it and I spent three days in New York interviewing him at 246 East 49th Street. There was no plan that it would be a book, but when I transcribed the interviews, they were so much broader and of greater and wider interest than I envisioned. And he agreed and so hence the book became.

[6:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. And it's actually had three editions now.

[6:42] Mark Eden Horowitz: Has it really?

[6:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. That's incredible. Congratulations.

[6:46] Mark Eden Horowitz: Thank you.

[6:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, then it only makes sense that the next book would be about Sondheim's mentor, right? Oskar Hammerstein, numero dos. Had you always been interested in Mr. Hammerstein?

[6:51] Mark Eden Horowitz: It's funny you say that because when Steve died, it struck me, he is entirely the reason why I ended up doing what I did. As somebody growing up, I was a fan of musicals. I enjoyed them, but I thought of them as sort of entertainments. And it wasn't until I was exposed to his work when I was late teens that I thought, you know, this is something worthy of life's pursuit. And I wouldn't have gone into the career I went into if it hadn't been for him. And when he died, I realized all of a sudden, you know, he wouldn't have gone into the career of musical theater if it hadn't been for Oskar. So in a way, I guess I have Oskar to thank as much as anybody or anything, and I hadn't realized it before.

[7:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. So how long did it take you to compile this and edit the book together?

[7:55] Mark Eden Horowitz: Well, it's a little more complicated than that. I got a grant. I had a one-year fellowship that allowed me to take a leave of absence from my regular job at the library. I read through all the correspondence in the Hammerstein collection, which wonderfully, he kept carbons of much of his outgoing correspondence, without which this wouldn't have been possible. And there were other collections in the library that had letters from him, including the Josh Logan collection and the Ruben Mamoulian collection. I read about 10,000 letters, I guess, and I transcribed 4,500 letters. Only about 900 to 1,000 are in the book. But the agreement with the publisher is the library can wait until two years after the book is published, and then we can do a website with all the letters. So my hope is in some future date, hopefully all 4,500 letters will be available online.

[9:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. Wow. That's an insane amount of work.

[9:06] Mark Eden Horowitz: It was seven days a week for 365 days, evenings, weekends.

[9:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So if you're spending that much time with Mr. Hammerstein, how would you describe the evolution of how you understand the man?

[9:20] Mark Eden Horowitz: I absolutely fell in love with him. It's hard for me to imagine a finer human being than I've come to think of him. I'd never heard anything bad about him, but seeing the day-to-day and the kindness, the thoughtfulness, the seriousness, the warmth, the humor, the seriousness with which he dealt with race relations and work he did there. And the last few years of his life, he became deeply involved with an organization I'd never even heard of before called the United World Federalists, whose goal was basically to try and prevent another world war. He founded, along with his wife and Pearl Buck and James Michener, a place called Welcome House, which was basically an adoption agency for Asian or combination Anglo-Asian children. And his very first grandchild was adopted from that agency. He would shout things from the rooftops if he believed in them. He had his detractors, and he stood up for himself very strongly and well.

[10:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, I'm so grateful you're here today because I do think that so much of The King and I requires a bit of context in terms of what both Oscar and Richard were setting out to do in creating this musical. And I think sometimes we can very easily and honestly understandably forget that. So in order to talk about this show, though, let's talk a little bit about the people this musical is very loosely based on. First up, The King. Now, from the get-go, this show was all about Anna. It's called The King and I, so it's from her point of view. That being said, The King is technically referring to King Mongkut, who was a celebrated leader in what is now Thailand in the 1800s. And he spent half of his life as a Buddhist monk before becoming king, which I had no idea.

It's incredible. And because of all of that time and dedication to learning, he had become incredibly well acquainted with Western languages and cultures, and he saw the importance of it not to be popular or trendy, but as a way to establish himself as a country powerful enough to compete globally and not just be taken over and colonized like countries around him. So it was kind of like a survival skill and recognizing that globalization was in its guerrilla warfare state. And in the name of doing that, in the name of catching everyone up around him to where he was in the process, he requested a teacher for his children and his wives. Enter Anna. I keep saying Anna. Do we say Anna or Anna?

[12:32] Mark Eden Horowitz: I've always heard Anna.

[12:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, great. Great. I'm from the West, so of course I have a very posh accent. Enter Anna Leonowens. Now, the real Anna, however—and this is the biggest face crack I have had in all of my research of this musical, and I'm sure you know about it—the real Anna Leonowens was part Indian.

[12:55] Mark Eden Horowitz: I did not know. Or if I did, I forgot.

[12:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Like from her mother's side from India, and she kept this a secret her entire life. We didn't find out until decades after her death, after the books came out, everything, that she was part Indian, but she passed for a white woman, and she made sure everyone treated her that way, and that's how she left it. But I mean, that gives the story so many layers. Even some of the things you even said at the introduction, I did not realize that people considered the show as controversial as clearly you indicate they do.

[13:36] Mark Eden Horowitz: Oh, yeah.

[13:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I think it would have somewhat shocked Oscar, because I don't think he ever thought of it as trying to be historically accurate.

[13:45] Mark Eden Horowitz: No.

[13:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The idea that it would be judged on this other standard, I think would—I don't know if it would shock Oscar, but I think disappoint him a bit. Do you think, just going a little further with that, what do you think—this is such a difficult question—what is the responsibility of the artist if you're, in fact, using characters with the actual names of individuals from history?

[14:22] Joan Almedilla: You know, like, where's that line? And I mean, this is something that we talk about even with modern filmmaking. The Best Picture winner *Argo* has this, the most incredible scene that is completely false, and yet it's based on real events, right? So, where is that line? Where do we create works of art? And when do we perpetuate lies? That's a loaded question. It's a loaded question that I want you to answer right now. I'm just kidding. I think a work of art is a work of art, and it shouldn't be judged based on history. And it's not a history. It's not a documentary. It's two different things, and it's asking it to be something that it's not meant to be, or usually, I think, even attempting or trying to be.

[15:16] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah, it's an interesting conversation. This is a quote that I had pulled from an online contributor. He writes, "Since the essential staged confrontation at the heart of *The King and I* produces a culture and its people, a rewrite would not solve the problem. In recognition of evolving sensibilities, the Rodgers and Hammerstein organization should shelve the play as a humanitarian gesture toward Southeast Asian history and art so energetically trampled upon by *The King and I*." I find that sad and upsetting.

[15:49] Joan Almedilla: I mean, here's the thing. When the real Anna Leonowens goes to Siam, she butts heads with the king, especially about a house that was promised to her. We hear about that in the musical. And afterwards, she writes a memoir about her adventures, and in it, she inflates her importance in the stories. She exaggerates just a little bit. And that memoir is then turned into a book by Margaret Landon called *Anna and the King of Siam*, in which details and the king's persona are even more exaggerated. And then that gets turned into a movie, which starred *My Fair Lady*'s Henry Higgins, Rex Harrison, as the king. And so, it's only after this game of telephone about, you know, essentially one woman's experience with the king of Siam, do Rodgers and Hammerstein start to turn it into a musical.

[16:49] Mark Eden Horowitz: But here's the thing, and this is my opinion. I tend to think of all of the fabrications of the story. The musical *The King and I* is far and away the most sympathetic. And I know that's not an excuse for historical inaccuracies. But the relationships, and this is when I really agree with the letter that you read to us at the beginning. The relationships and explorations of love in this show are kind of unmatched in musical theater. I almost think of it as the most romantic musical we have. Hear me out, everybody. This is my hot take. I really do feel like *The King and I* is the most romantic musical, and not because of the relationship between Anna and the king. I just think that this musical looks at love in every stage and in every form.

You've got Anna still mourning the loss of her husband, who has passed away. You have the love of Lady Thiang for the king. You have the love of Tuptim and Lun Tha. You've got the love of parents to children. It's all so beautifully and elegantly explored, and it's never shoved down our throats either. It kind of watercolors the entire stage, and I think it's stunning. That's my personal opinion.

[18:18] Joan Almedilla: You've convinced me.

[18:22] Mark Eden Horowitz: I got Mark. Even I got no one else. I got Mark. Once again, I know that's not an excuse, because the fact that Thailand has banned the film *The King and I* because of the way that it shows this man who lived most of his life as a Buddhist monk, as this kind of blustering, etc., etc. guy, those things are also true. But just as the show talks about these culture clashes and people coming together, I would sure hate that we can't have a discussion about that piece of art because we're falling into the traps that it's actually warning us about.

[19:10] Joan Almedilla: So, when Rodgers and Hammerstein agree to musicalize this, this is coming out of *South Pacific*, which is just one of their biggest hits. Of course, there is a lot of pressure. How do you follow up *South Pacific*? What on earth are you going to do? From what I understand, both Rodgers and Hammerstein's wives—who, by the way, were both interior designers, go figure. They just get stranger and stranger, and yet could not be two more different women. They had both read *Anna and the King of Siam* by Margaret Landon and wanted their husbands to turn it into a musical. They didn't think it was a good idea. Then, they also had Gertrude Lawrence, who many of the listeners who listened to our *Lady in the Dark* episode might remember.

Gertrude Lawrence, an incredible stage actor, was famous for lighting up a stage. There was just nothing that compared to her star power. She's turning 50. She's getting to that age, and we all know what happens to women when they hit that age in the entertainment industry. There are no roles. Her team kind of reached out to Rodgers and Hammerstein and said, how about *Anna and the King of Siam*? Gertrude plays Anna. While that wasn't the impetus, it is the thing that kind of pushes it into another gear. It seems like they just can't escape this title. The final nail in the coffin, so to speak, was when they went and saw the movie with Rex Harrison. They saw, oh, this can be turned into a structure that a musical could really thrive in. They honestly thought, well, we'll get Rex Harrison to continue being the king. That didn't happen, of course, especially if it was going to be all about Anna. Gertrude Lawrence ends up signing on.

[21:02] Mark Eden Horowitz: Here's the problem, though. Gertrude, we love her. She lights up a stage. She didn't always have the strongest voice and, in fact, was kind of infamous for singing under pitch. You've sent me some of these letters, people who were really asking Rodgers and Hammerstein to rethink the whole Gertrude Lawrence of it all. Are you a fan of Gertrude Lawrence? What think ye of this grand dame of theater?

[21:36] Joan Almedilla: Boy, no one's ever asked me anything like that. Yeah, welcome to *Musical Theatre Podcast*. Okay. Never having seen her live, I don't know that—

[21:48] Mark Eden Horowitz: I know, that's kind of the thing, right? This is a letter from Oscar, June 5th, 1951, to the director of *The King and I*, John Van Druten, and he's reporting on various things. Oscar writes, "Last week, I sat through the performance in row four and had a wonderful time in every way. I think the play has improved. The characterizations have been enriched. No changes have been made, but the actors just seem to have eased into their roles better, and I couldn't find any places where we had lost ground. I did make some notes, but they were superficial. Gertrude is magnificent. None of the nonsense that we were warned about has shown up in her performance so far. She seems very deeply aware of the character of Anna and the danger of Gertrude Lawrence intruding herself into it."

[22:34] Joan Almedilla: So, I just have to take Oscar at his word, and it sounds like—

[22:39] Mark Eden Horowitz: That's a glowing review.

[22:39] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, and there's no reason for him to have pretended, because later when she starts not doing well, you know, he's equally—

[22:46] Mark Eden Horowitz: Honest.

[22:51] Joan Almedilla: Honest about it. Yeah.

[22:52] Mark Eden Horowitz: But it sounds like, at her best, she was magnificent.

[22:56] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, this was her show. So, then it became, okay, if this is Gertrude Lawrence's show, then who's going to play the king? My understanding is they actually had wanted Alfred Drake for the king, and he turned it down.

[23:10] Mark Eden Horowitz: Oh, sure, from *Oklahoma*. So, it's not so much that they weren't looking for somebody great to begin with. Their first choice said no, and so they started looking further afield. Enter this show that I had never heard of called *Lute Song*. I guarantee you, we're never going to do an episode on *Lute Song*, everybody, but it is important because it was a Mary Martin musical, and in it, she had a cast mate by the name of Ewell Brenner. And so, it is Mary Martin herself from *South Pacific* and later *Sound of Music* that tells Rodgers and Hammerstein, hey, maybe look at this guy. So, they go to a Broadway theater where I can't remember if he's in a show at the time, or maybe that was just the location where they were meeting. They have this audition, and boom, there's the king. He books the role almost immediately.

[24:05] Joan Almedilla: Now, if we thought Anna Leonowens was kind of an exaggerator, she didn't never meet Ewell Brenner because this guy, he could tell a big fish story as well. Whenever he talked about his growing up, he was always from these very exotic places. We never really knew where he was from. He would say that he had run away with the circus. He just had all of these interesting stories about his origin story. Ewell Brenner was actually born Russian and did have some clown training, so that's when he quote-unquote ran away to the circus, but he did find his way into the theater. Once he found his way to the stage as the king, I mean, that really catapulted him. I think that is the moment when *The King and I* became a two-hander is when Ewell Brenner started becoming a star as well. What do you think?

[25:06] Mark Eden Horowitz: You just reminded me. I told you I transcribed all these letters and only a portion of them. Some of the letters that aren't in the book that I ended up transcribing, though, were letters from, I think, Brenner's agent or something fighting for better billing in the ads.

[25:26] Joan Almedilla: Oh, sure.

[25:26] Mark Eden Horowitz: And things like that.

[25:28] Joan Almedilla: Yeah.

[25:28] Mark Eden Horowitz: He's like, he is the king in *The King and I*. It's a pretty good argument. I mean, clearly Brenner was brilliant and they were very pleased with him, but he also was a difficult character to deal with and caused his own frustrations, one of which was during the run he would often refuse to perform "It's a Puzzlement."

[25:56] Joan Almedilla: Which is like the crux of the show, of that entire character. What are you thinking, Ewell?

[26:03] Mark Eden Horowitz: Have we heard the same story that it was because he wanted to pay attention to the football game or something in the dressing room?

[26:11] Joan Almedilla: I hadn't heard that.

[26:13] Mark Eden Horowitz: That was a rumor. I don't know. I can't believe that it's true, that a three and a half minute number would make all the difference.

[26:18] Joan Almedilla: No. I mean, my sense was he said it was too taxing. His voice was, he couldn't handle it in a given evening, but he did it so often that there were complaints, of course, from the audience.

[26:30] Mark Eden Horowitz: Of course. Frustrating to Oscar.

[26:33] Joan Almedilla: I remember in Carol Channing's documentary, she said that Ewell Brenner made her promise that she would say that he was the longest running performer in a show, as far as doing the most performances of one role.

[26:50] Mark Eden Horowitz: And she agreed, and then he died, and then she said, it's a lie, it's me as Dolly Levi.

[26:58] Joan Almedilla: I'm trying to picture Ewell Brenner as Dolly Levi.

[27:01] Mark Eden Horowitz: Well, oh my gosh. I mean, come on.

[27:03] Joan Almedilla: Or Carol Channing as the King.

[27:04] Mark Eden Horowitz: As the King. Same, you know what? It's the same vocal range, which is fantastic.

[27:10] Joan Almedilla: Actually, there is a wonderful, there was a TV special, Carol Channing and Pearl Bailey, and one of the segments was doing roles that they could never do.

[27:25] Mark Eden Horowitz: And Carol Channing does a really wonderful "If I Were a Rich Man."

[27:30] Joan Almedilla: I have seen this! That's from that?

[27:32] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah.

[27:33] Joan Almedilla: Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes. How did we not get that fiddler on the road?

[27:39] Mark Eden Horowitz: So, once the show is cast, we also have my friend Jerry Robbins in as a choreographer. They go out of town, and from what I understand, of all of the Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals, this is the one that changed the most in between premiering and getting to Broadway. For example, opening night, it was close to four hours. It was a long, long show. And so they started cutting and cutting and cutting. They even had a producer write to them, is this true, and ask that they close down the show.

[28:18] Joan Almedilla: Let's close it right now before it even gets to Broadway.

[28:21] Mark Eden Horowitz: This is all news to me. I've never heard anything like this.

[28:25] Joan Almedilla: Yeah.

[28:25] Mark Eden Horowitz: Okay, hold on. Let me see if I can find it in my *Something Wonderful* by Todd Esperdom. Hold on.

[28:30] Joan Almedilla: Well, Todd's a great guy.

[28:33] Mark Eden Horowitz: One second.

[28:37] Mark Eden Horowitz: Leland Hayward is the guy who told them thus.

[28:43] Mark Eden Horowitz: I told Dick and Oscar that they should close the show rather than risk bringing it into New York. Still, the company had its work cut out for its three-week run in Boston, which would begin on March 5th. There, THE KING AND I would undergo more pre-Broadway changes than any other Rodgers & Hammerstein show. Five songs would be cut entirely, along with several stanzas of others. They also added a song.

[29:07] Joan Almedilla: They did. Okay, so this is one of my favorite things. Thank you for bringing it up. Another Rodgers & Hammerstein song, my favorite thing. They were missing something like a big all-skate, is what I like to call it when I'm choreographing. A number where everybody gets to come together, sing, dance. It's a nice energetic moment. They were missing that from the first act. There wasn't anything in it, and they specifically felt like they needed it for Anna. They remembered a song that they had written for South Pacific, because boy, oh boy, did they have a heck of a time coming up with Younger Than Springtime. They wrote song after song, and every single time Josh Logan was like, no thanks, next. One of those songs was a song called Suddenly Lucky.

[29:55] Mark Eden Horowitz: Suddenly Lovely or Suddenly Lucky, there are two versions. These were the original lyrics. See if anybody recognizes the melody. Suddenly lucky, suddenly our arms are lucky. That was one of the original incarnations of Younger Than Springtime. They take the melody and, of course, create Getting to Know You, which becomes one of the big highlights of the first act and makes me cry. The show becomes a hit and one of the longest running shows. One of the real tragic things about that really long run is that Gertrude Lawrence's health starts failing. There's a lot of letters about her voice really hurting, which of course was what people were worried about in the first place. What is your feeling from the letters? Sometimes they read a little callous to me. They don't seem so much as worried about her health as they are worried about the show.

[31:08] Joan Almedilla: It was tough, and I think it was difficult on many levels between the people involved. I think she was panicky sometimes, and as a result was demanding, and she would ask that her costume be changed because it was too heavy and weighty. It's that problem. It's not this problem, kind of ignoring. There's a remarkable letter that is marked not sent, but clearly Rodgers and Hammerstein drafted it to send to her and then changed their minds. It was not long after that that she actually did die. Let me see if I can find this letter.

[31:50] Mark Eden Horowitz: While you're looking, the story is that she was in the show. She took a little bit of a break. She came back. She collapses in the show at one point, and the understudy has to finish the show for her. Then she is diagnosed with hepatitis, a disease of the liver. It's then that the producer is essentially going to give her notice that she needs to either get feeling better soon or leave the show permanently. The hepatitis was actually cancer, and she dies a day after that. Let me just read this paragraph. You are still playing the part of Anna magnificently, perhaps even better than you played it when we opened. Your singing of the score, however, has deteriorated to an alarming extent. We don't think you know this, and it's no fun to be the ones to tell you the news, but somebody has to.

Eight times a week, you are losing the respect of 1,500 people. This is a serious thing to be happening to one of the great women of our theater. We have neither motive nor desire to worry you. We are trying to protect you from a danger that faces you, and at the moment as we do this, we are the best friends you have. Our love always, Richard Rogers, Oscar Hammerstein II.

[33:11] Joan Almedilla: It's as eloquently as you can have that conversation via letter, isn't it? And the thing was, because of her contract, they couldn't fire her. They couldn't force her out of the show, so they were...

[33:23] Mark Eden Horowitz: Inviting her to leave.

[33:25] Joan Almedilla: Yeah. But again, that letter is marked not sent.

[33:29] Mark Eden Horowitz: Wow. Crazy. But my gosh, what a way to go, playing one of the great roles of the musical theater, and it seems like Gertrude Lawrence was most at home on stage. Either that or battling wits with Noel Coward, one of the two.

[33:49] Mark Eden Horowitz: All right, so that's kind of the origin of the show. So Mark, I will see you at the end of the episode. Right now, we're going to cut to yet another guest, an incredible actress. Everyone please enjoy.

[34:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, we're back to go through The King and I, and here to join me is someone who has gone through it a lot. She made her Broadway debut as Kim in Miss Saigon. She was the first Asian to play the role of Fantine in Les Misérables on tour, and you may have seen her all around the country as Lady Tiang in the recent revival tour of The King and I. Everyone please welcome the silky golden voice, Joan Almedilla.

[34:30] Joan Almedilla: Hi, Mr. Silky golden voice yourself. Thank you for having me.

[34:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Did I ever tell you that I saw you as Fantine in Salt Lake City?

[34:43] Joan Almedilla: Were you like two?

[34:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No.

[34:45] Joan Almedilla: Or five?

[34:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, but I was changed. That's the important thing.

[34:51] Joan Almedilla: Oh, I love that show. That was years ago, but I love that show.

[34:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, your voice was, I just had never heard anything so warm and gorgeous. So I am just honored and so grateful you're here. Thank you.

[35:05] Joan Almedilla: I feel the same way.

[35:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now I've never asked you this, but I need to know right off the bat, do you like The King and I? And feel free to be honest. Opinions are fully welcome on a musical theater podcast.

[35:18] Joan Almedilla: The tragedy is the music is beautiful, but then you dissect it and it's like, wait a minute. There are some problems. Not everyone agrees and people are sensitive about it, but I am an artist. So I expect myself to be a strong artist, not easily angered by anything, but provoked. And it's okay. I try to see if, wait, were they trying to educate me or were they trying to mock my culture? Were they trying to make fun of our culture or, you know what I mean? Looking for the intention.

[36:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. And then I was able to do, before the revival, I've done it twice, Lady Tiang. Before it was the revival and then I did the revival on tour and huge difference. The first time was just like, the music is beautiful and I love the cast, you know, and I'm working, you know, and then the revival came, the revival came. There was no flashy, glittery things on stage. You're bare. You might, everybody might as well just wear a mask because we're dealing with the issues happening. It was an internal revival. It was an internal aspect of like, these are the issues happening.

[36:45] Joan Almedilla: Let's start with the women. And my friend puts it like beautifully. He talks about, he played Lunta. Hello, Kevin Panmichael. He said it, you know, we're dealing with three women. One who fights the system, Mrs. Anna, Lady Tiang, who works in the system, and Tuptim who runs away from the system.

[37:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Wow. What a great framing.

[37:12] Joan Almedilla: Yeah. So if you haven't seen the revival, you won't understand why. I just love it. I love the revival because the women were feisty. You would think like the king would have them executed because they were really feisty. None of them, you know, when I first played Lady Tiang, it was more like, I'm doing this duty for the king and I am very submissive and I'm whatever he says, I will do. Yeah. The second time I did it, I was directed as, she's more like Hillary Clinton and she's more like police woman and she's almost like the Kerala home and the king. Like if they had a baby, she was like, she orchestrated everything, but it's just by her presence, not necessarily the use of her words. She is there. So yeah. And, and, you know, if, if you were on her side, she will take care of you. And if you defy the king, I'm sorry, you know, getting tattled on. Correct. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mama bear.

[38:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, we're going to talk through the show, which I'm so grateful that you're here to do this with me and feel free to, you know, shout out any, any profound insights you might have or a favorite, least favorite moments, those sorts of things, ways that you feel like we can even adjust the perspective on maybe what was done traditionally to reveal the actual truth hidden underneath all of those sorts of things. The show begins with Mrs. Anna arriving in Siam, right? And immediately she keeps being told, you probably shouldn't be here. You can't handle this is the message she keeps receiving. It's, it's too scary. You don't have a husband. And I'm sure that her young son can pick up on this because I mean, it is a little scary for sure.

But when you have everyone else telling you that it is as well, that can be a little triggering. So there's this lovely little song in which she says, yes, it's okay to be afraid. Correct. Yes. I mean, what a message, right? Right, right. I feel like that's something I need to hear all the time. It's okay to be afraid. And what I do is whistle a happy tune. Yeah, we all have our things. We all have our things, you know, quick story of like, life story. My son was on tour with me and King and I, he was one of the royal twin. I met every day for two years. I was like, it was just like, my heart was just so full. But at the same time, like, please don't do crazy things. Yeah. Bow and impress Mrs. Anna.

Don't do great. You know, boys could do that. But they were well behaved for two years better than adults, actually. So good job, boys. Yeah, so I just I just, we were in one of the cities in the middle of America and somebody screamed past, like walking by us in the lobby of a hotel and saying, why don't you make ramen? You know, things like that, like, oh, my son saw that he was shocked. You know what I mean? Like, what? That still exists. So right there, that was like, I didn't even have to say like, for example, you know what I mean? Like, yeah, what do you think of that? You know, like, if that was the lesson, but I didn't tell him that was bad. Like, I don't tell him that's bad or good, whatever.

Like, what do you think? Is that good? Is that a good? Is that what he did? Was that like, is that something you would do to other people or not? You know, just to see what he thinks. Teaching moment for sure. And my point is, I was scared. So I could totally relate to Mrs. Anna that I love that song. Another another lyric coming up. By our pupils, we are taught right. So sometimes the lessons we give to our children are the ones we need the most.

[41:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. After this great little introduction, the essentially the prime minister, right, the guy who's just below the king comes to meet her and escort her to the palace, which is automatically a point of contention, because she had been promised a house. Yeah. And this is a thing in that house just comes up consistently. Why I'm here. We'll just we'll just get this out of the way right now. She wanted a house not to live in the palace because she wanted to feel independent. I guess when I was doing my research, the reason the king didn't want her to live outside of the palace was because he didn't want to be in charge of getting her in and out every single day to come and teach. It was just simply easier to have her in the palace.

But this becomes a place of honor, right? You gave me your word that I would have a house. And so we see that throughout the show. I also want to point out this is a woman who still has a lot of fear. And then trying to fight for what she asked that she was promised to stand up for herself, I mean, to be a woman at that time and to negotiate and be like, no, no, no, no, no, no. I need that. I'm not going to stop until I not I, but until you give me what you promised.

[42:40] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, for sure. Because he could just easily say, OK, go home.

[42:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. She tried, but you know. So she goes to the palace to kind of figure all of this out, all of the house business. And while she's there, this young woman is escorted into the palace as well, who's named.

[43:06] Joan Almedilla: And she is a gift from Burma, the king of Burma, which is a nearby country. Do you remember why this gift? Why? Why he sends him her? Why he is he is who? Why he, why he, the king of Burma sends the king of Siam a gift? Are they just being like buddies or is there something behind it? I can't, oh my gosh, I cannot remember. I was in the scene.

[43:35] Mark Eden Horowitz: No, no, so no, I would think it was that it was a gesture, sure. I could be wrong, but the king of Thailand is maybe at that time superior. Well, certainly that's what's taught, right? And at least right, show is that right? Siam is, yeah, is everything in Burma is, yeah, yeah, this is our place, right?

[44:02] Joan Almedilla: What's kind of profound is that I can't even remember why Tuptim is given to the king of Siam and yet it's devastating, right? Because not only is she essentially a slave, but she's in love with somebody who's named Lun Tha, and by being promised to the king, that like totally squashes the possibility of being with her love, right? And she sings this gorgeous almost aria that I always forget about until she starts singing. I'm like, oh yeah, this song is in there called "My Lord and Master."

[44:37] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah, it's a beautiful song. Again, let's dissect it. You know, to sing a song and then you're defiant at the same time.

[44:50] Joan Almedilla: You know, wow, it's almost like your teeth are like, you know, you're like grinding your teeth saying, wow, he really likes me. He's really pleased. You know what I mean? I'm so happy about, you know what I mean? Like there's nothing always set like one emotion in "King and I." Like Mrs. Anna is, you know, she smiles and amused, but at the same time she is annoyed.

[45:20] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah, yeah, King.

[45:25] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, always ready. She's always got those fists ready to fight.

[45:27] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yes.

[45:27] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, she could be entertained, but at the same time feel sorry, you know? I mean, we'll talk about that later. But yeah, it's never like happy or sad. Like it's never, there's always in between. There's always shadows and from her point of view.

[45:43] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah, yeah. Shout out real quick to Richard Rodgers, who of course wrote this music in a time when the assignment had to have been super difficult, which was create an American musical, which is essentially a Western art form that takes place in the East and gives a true textural experience of what that is like while still giving the ears listening to this Western piece something that they can hold on to, right? And I think he did a gorgeous job. I mean, I know that this is not authentic music of the area, but the way that he paints these colors into the musical theater art form, I think changes how we see musicals forever because right, right, all of a sudden you can go anywhere. You know, you're not just going to be in New York with a bunch of showgirls doing the Ziegfeld Follies.

You can go anywhere and tell any story. There's just something about their music that really like deforms your heart, you know? Like your heart kind of moves like, oh my God, my heart just like pumped differently this time like listening to it. It's gonna be a simple tune, you know?

[47:02] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, there's something about it. Mrs. Anna also meets his wives, and by his I mean the king of Siam, including one Lady Thiang. So we've already talked about her.

[47:19] Mark Eden Horowitz: Mm-hmm. I love her. Do you love her? And did you love her more and more the more you spent time with her?

[47:27] Joan Almedilla: I've learned a lot from Lady Thiang in the sense that, you know, as a... It taught me, this is really dumb, but it taught me to find my resting bitch face.

[47:39] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah.

[47:39] Joan Almedilla: During the revival, I... During the revival when, you know, after the, you know, with the last one, I did the with a brilliant director of Bartley Sher. He would say, you know, I see your smile and kindness in your face. It doesn't work. You lose me.

[47:56] Mark Eden Horowitz: Wow.

[47:57] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, because back then it was like, hi, Mrs. Anna, you know what I mean?

[48:01] Mark Eden Horowitz: Mm-hmm.

[48:01] Joan Almedilla: So this time it's more, she's a businesswoman. You can't tell if she approves or not. Yeah, she's there to do business, but she will take care of you.

[48:15] Mark Eden Horowitz: You know her entrance? Let's talk about her entrance, please.

[48:20] Joan Almedilla: When she sings, "There is a happy land far, far away." I don't know if you see in the revival, but PBS.

[48:31] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yes. Yes. Let me put that out there right now. I subscribe to PBS.

[48:37] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, that I could watch "Great Performances." It's five dollars, you guys.

[48:39] Mark Eden Horowitz: Five dollars to watch the revival version that they've filmed. It's stunning. Anyway, continue.

[48:45] Joan Almedilla: Yes. Oh, so my experience was when I come in the first time, I try to impress Mrs. Anna that I can speak English, but I have a really, really thick... I'm struggling to find the words to impress her, right? Because the king is right there. As soon as the king leaves, then you can quite understand her now when she's all of a sudden her English a little better.

[49:14] Mark Eden Horowitz: Well, you know, more understandable.

[49:21] Joan Almedilla: There is a happy land. But when the king leaves, Mrs. Anna, let me talk to you. You know what I mean? Like I don't want to make him feel like, yeah, it's all, it's really all that. I know it's, I know that male, the king is just mean and all that, but she is not threatened by anything. She is not, she doesn't fear anything like, yeah, tell me what to do and I'll do it.

[49:44] Mark Eden Horowitz: Now when Mrs. Anna meets the children, the king's children, this is an actual musical number called "The March of the Siamese Children," which is really sweet. Brief talk about Jerome Robbins, who is the original choreographer. My friend Jerry, he was of course such a ballet person first and foremost.

[50:04] Joan Almedilla: And so when it came to creating the vocabulary for this musical, I find a lot of consistency between the approaches of both Richard Rodgers and Jerome Robbins because they were coming at it from a Western place, you know, from their art forms and realizing how do we put an authentic accent on it? But at its core, it's still musical theater. At its core, it's still ballet.

[50:39] Mark Eden Horowitz: Now when it's performed by people who are not of that culture, does it become yellow face? Absolutely, in the same way that it is in "The Nutcracker." But for my money, I think it's still a beautiful, beautiful piece of dance. I'm sure he's done extensive research and study in the movement in the art form at that time.

[51:04] Joan Almedilla: Okay, so this is a quote from Jerome Robbins about creating the dancing, and this is in a letter that Mark, my previous guest, shared with me. He says, "Last night I went to see some Indonesian dancing at the Legation here. You might have to help me with some of these words if you understand them. There was some Java, Sumatra, Bali, Celebes, and I saw some wonderful things which started me thinking of how they could possibly be used in the show."

[51:36] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah.

[51:36] Joan Almedilla: "One thing I saw that I was particularly impressed by was a dance between a man and a woman in which the woman did very little. Most of the time she just stood with her eyes cast down and sort of presented herself to the man who was standing across on the other side of the stage who was watching her. The music was very exciting, not loud, but rhythmic and pulsating, and he, while he was watching her, would only very slowly move his head somewhat birdlike, somewhat snake-like. It was terrifically sexy. It was almost as if he had been touching her all over, and this distance between them pointed this up all the more."

[52:11] Mark Eden Horowitz: And I was immediately struck by the parallel between this dance and the personal relationship of Anna and the king of Siam, and like this moment that he sees is kind of what fuels his passion to actually put dance throughout this show because up until a certain point there was only going to be the ballet in the second act. That's all the dance that there was going to be. And then as he starts doing this research and going to and seeing cultural dances, he starts to see the power of dance because once again, not spoken.

[53:01] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, so many of these relationships and so many of the complexities of the relationships in the show are unspoken. So instead, you're using distance, you're using the relationship of how we move and how the show moves to tell even more of the story, right? You know, I'm sure he wasn't just like, oh, let's choreograph it to make it look like from that culture and like you just read.

[53:25] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah, and what I felt and what I found so interesting about this quote is that here I was kind of fixated on wondering what the steps meant, like where did he find the steps and how authentic were they to the culture? But what inspired me was that his research actually led to something deeper, which was discovering the soul of the movement in the show. That's something that I hadn't even thought of, you know? Like I said, I'm sitting here focused on the steps and he's already like six layers underneath that, what is brewing underneath.

[54:04] Joan Almedilla: Gosh, I'm so jealous of the actors that worked with him.

[54:11] Mark Eden Horowitz: I know. I mean, they were also horribly treated and abused, but oh...

[54:16] Joan Almedilla: I didn't know that part.

[54:21] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah, Jerry was not a happy man, and he took it out on his actors, but he also teaches me a lot.

[54:29] Joan Almedilla: So one of the children of the king of Siam helped me, that it's Lady Thiang's son, Chulalongkorn.

[54:39] Mark Eden Horowitz: Chulalongkorn, yes, Prince Chulalongkorn, and he's next in line, right?

[54:44] Joan Almedilla: Yes, and how would you describe his relationship to Mrs. Anna? You know, it starts off as kind of like know-it-all, like, yeah, you're gonna teach me.

[54:59] Mark Eden Horowitz: The kid who...

[55:01] Joan Almedilla: Well, I keep calling him kid, but who I had the pleasure of working with, he did it so well, and he did just that. And when it came to the real realization that, oh my goodness, I can learn a lot from Mrs. Anna, you could see the switch of like, I respect this woman.

[55:22] Mark Eden Horowitz: Well, and I think one of the big examples for him in that is his father because he sees the king start to question things and change his mind, and that is both confusing to a very stubborn young boy. What do you mean you're going to, you know, change your mind? You're the king, right? And also I think kind of freeing that, oh, I guess I do have something to learn.

[56:02] Joan Almedilla: Right, and you have to remember as a parent, whatever you do gives permission to your child that, oh, whatever you're doing is okay, so I will do the same.

[56:07] Mark Eden Horowitz: Right, you know, I've been so focused on the women because I love women characters in theater. It's no secret, but it's really important to also note that the king's journey has already been incredibly exciting up until this point. Right after we meet Anna, we do hear from the king who is upset about the possibility of colonialism taking over and destroying his country. Like that is what he is faced with almost immediately in the show that only snowballs to this point where now he sings the great "It's a Puzzlement," right?

[56:47] Joan Almedilla: Where he, gosh, I forgot that song.

[56:53] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yes, where once he's also like the prince, he is grappling with how much do I know? How little do I know? And where's the intersection, which, right, relatable content to be clear, especially after a two-year pandemic. I woke up feeling like I knew less and less.

[57:19] Joan Almedilla: Yes.

[57:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome back to A Musical Theatre Podcast. Today, we are diving into the world of "The King and I," and I am thrilled to be joined by two incredible guests. First, we have Mark Eden Horowitz, a historian from the Library of Congress, who has spent a year studying the correspondence of Oscar Hammerstein II. Welcome, Mark!

[57:56] Mark Eden Horowitz: Thank you, Jeff! It's great to be here.

[58:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And we also have Broadway star Joan Almedilla, known for her work in "Miss Saigon." Joan, welcome to the podcast!

[58:56] Joan Almedilla: Thank you so much for having me, Jeff! I'm excited to talk about this show.

[59:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: "The King and I" has had such a profound impact on musical theatre since its debut in 1951. Mark, can you share some insights into the historical context of the show?

[59:53] Mark Eden Horowitz: Absolutely. When "The King and I" premiered, it was a time of significant cultural change. The post-war era was marked by a growing interest in Eastern cultures, and this musical brought a unique perspective to the American stage. Hammerstein's letters reveal a lot about his intentions and the challenges he faced in portraying this story.

[1:00:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's fascinating! Joan, having performed as Lady Thiang, what has your experience been like with this character and the show overall?

[1:00:51] Joan Almedilla: Playing Lady Thiang has been an incredible journey for me. She is such a strong character, and I love how she balances tradition with the changing world around her. The music and the story really resonate with audiences, and I think that's why the show remains relevant today.

[1:01:21] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It’s interesting how the themes of the show continue to evolve. Mark, what are some of the key themes that you think resonate with modern audiences?

[1:01:49] Mark Eden Horowitz: One of the central themes is the clash of cultures and the importance of understanding and respect. In today's world, where cultural conversations are more prominent than ever, "The King and I" offers a platform for discussing these issues. The relationship between Anna and the King is complex and layered, reflecting both conflict and connection.

[1:02:13] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Joan, do you think the portrayal of these characters has changed over the years?

[1:02:41] Joan Almedilla: Definitely. Each production brings its own interpretation, and I think audiences today are more aware of the nuances in these relationships. There's a deeper understanding of the characters' motivations, which adds richness to the storytelling.

[1:03:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mark, can you tell us more about the correspondence you studied? What were some surprising discoveries?

[1:03:33] Mark Eden Horowitz: One surprising aspect was Hammerstein's commitment to authenticity. He was deeply invested in accurately representing the culture and history of Siam, and his letters reflect his dedication to research and collaboration with cultural experts. This level of care is something that I think is often overlooked.

[1:03:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That’s a great point. Joan, how do you think this authenticity impacts the performance?

[1:04:27] Joan Almedilla: It makes a huge difference. When you understand the historical context and the characters' backgrounds, it allows you to bring more depth to your performance. I always strive to honor the story and the people it represents.

[1:04:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It sounds like both of you have a deep appreciation for the material. Mark, what do you hope readers take away from your book on Hammerstein's letters?

[1:05:21] Mark Eden Horowitz: I hope readers gain a greater understanding of Hammerstein as a person and a creator. His letters reveal his thought process, his struggles, and his triumphs. I want people to see the humanity behind the art.

[1:05:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That’s a beautiful sentiment. Joan, any final thoughts on "The King and I" and its impact?

[1:06:19] Joan Almedilla: I think the show continues to inspire conversations about culture, identity, and love. It’s a timeless piece that encourages us to reflect on our own lives and relationships.

[1:06:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you both for sharing your insights today. It's been a pleasure discussing "The King and I" with you.

[1:07:13] Mark Eden Horowitz: Thank you, Jeff! It’s been a joy.

[1:07:39] Joan Almedilla: Thank you for having us!

[1:08:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And to our listeners, thank you for tuning in to this episode of A Musical Theatre Podcast. Be sure to check out Mark's book and Joan's work. Until next time, keep celebrating the magic of musical theatre!

[1:11:48] Joan Almedilla: Of course, it's interrupted. They're interrupted by Carl Holm, the prime minister guy, saying that Tuptim has been captured. Now they're looking for Lunta. The king decides to punish Tuptim by having her whipped. Anna is completely beside herself that that would ever be a possibility and he will not be emasculated by this woman and her, you know, fear of the whip. And so he's like, fine, I'll do it myself. He turns to give Tuptim the lashes. But with Anna standing there, he can't go through with it. And so he runs off.

[1:12:48] Mark Eden Horowitz: Right. And there's also like gestures his heart. Oh, do you remember that part? Like he gestures his heart.

[1:12:56] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, like almost like his heart breaks.

[1:12:59] Mark Eden Horowitz: His heart breaks and which that's the first time we're seeing it and the start of his health.

[1:13:07] Joan Almedilla: His health decline.

[1:13:08] Mark Eden Horowitz: Declining. Yeah.

[1:13:11] Joan Almedilla: The stress has gotten to him of all of this change and all of this pressure, as well as kind of the emotional toll.

[1:13:18] Mark Eden Horowitz: Both physical and emotional. I don't know if that was my interpretation of it.

[1:13:23] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. Now, Lunta is killed, right? He's found dead.

[1:13:31] Mark Eden Horowitz: I guess we don't know if he's killed, but yeah, it doesn't show. It doesn't explain.

[1:13:36] Joan Almedilla: Yeah. Tuptim disappears. We don't see her ever again.

[1:13:42] Mark Eden Horowitz: It may be my fault.

[1:13:44] Joan Almedilla: Oh, we do. We do love Lady Tieng.

[1:13:49] Mark Eden Horowitz: Let's just continue.

[1:13:51] Joan Almedilla: And then several months pass and there's no contact between Anna and the king. And then finally, Chula Longkorn arrives with this letter from the king who wants Anna to come to his bedside. This is all made up. The real Anna Leonowens wasn't near the king at all during his death. Like none of this happened, but it's a really beautiful way to end the story.

[1:14:18] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah, but let's talk about the musical.

[1:14:19] Joan Almedilla: Yeah, exactly.

[1:14:21] Mark Eden Horowitz: Because usually we see Lady Tieng, you know, we think that she's always the one going to her. She's always the one going to her, but now it's the son. Right?

[1:14:33] Joan Almedilla: That's true.

[1:14:34] Mark Eden Horowitz: The child.

[1:14:35] Joan Almedilla: That's a really good point.

[1:14:36] Mark Eden Horowitz: The strategy. Right? She's all about strategy, this woman.

[1:14:42] Joan Almedilla: It's like, I think I have spent all my coins with this woman. So, son, it's your turn.

[1:14:50] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yes.

[1:14:51] Joan Almedilla: 100%.

[1:14:52] Mark Eden Horowitz: She loves children.

[1:14:55] Joan Almedilla: That is the reason why he went. You are absolutely right. It is because of Lady Tieng. Love it.

[1:15:01] Mark Eden Horowitz: Love it. And so she arrives at his bedside and they have this moment, right? Where once again, East and West meet. I don't know. What do you think about the ending of the musical?

[1:15:15] Joan Almedilla: I think I remember the bow, bow, bow, right? This is honest to like, why are you higher than me?

[1:15:23] Mark Eden Horowitz: Right. Because they've always been fighting about like, her head couldn't be any higher than his. Yeah. And so it was always this game of chicken.

[1:15:33] Joan Almedilla: Yes. So then it becomes like a funny thing for the audience to see. Like, oh my God, there's a waifu. He's dying. You know? Okay. Okay, fine. I'll give in. Like, she gives in.

[1:15:43] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah. I'll get down on your level.

[1:15:44] Joan Almedilla: Right. And I love that they picked that moment. Because later on, then you see the power handed over to the new king. And what does this child, this child, what does my child say? Who's 12 years, I don't know, 16 or whatever.

[1:16:02] Mark Eden Horowitz: The first thing, his first decree.

[1:16:03] Joan Almedilla: First decree was, I do not want anybody to bow like toads.

[1:16:10] Mark Eden Horowitz: Where did he get that idea?

[1:16:12] Joan Almedilla: Right?

[1:16:13] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yes. Yes. Careful the things you say, children will listen. And I think that, and I want to hear your opinion on this. But I love when we see how characters are changed because of the other, right? How these two worlds will never be the same because of the interaction. I mean, that is truly what connection is all about. And the best parts of globalization put us together to learn from each other. Right?

[1:16:43] Mark Eden Horowitz: Right. Right.

[1:16:45] Joan Almedilla: And I see how the king changes. I see how Siam will forever be different. How do you think Anna in this musical? How do you think she has been forever changed?

[1:16:56] Mark Eden Horowitz: Um, gosh, that's a really good question. After seeing everything she's seen, it's okay to fear that aspect of you. You don't have to be perfectly brave in order to face your fear.

[1:17:20] Joan Almedilla: Would she have had any of these opportunities to confront fear?

[1:17:27] Mark Eden Horowitz: Yeah. And you can change a person's mind from mean to kind without being an asshole.

[1:17:35] Joan Almedilla: Sure.

[1:17:36] Mark Eden Horowitz: Without being brutal. That you can absolutely 100% use your heart.

[1:17:43] Joan Almedilla: Hmm. Well, Joan, thank you so much for doing this with me. This has been an absolute joy, as I knew it would be. May is Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month.

[1:17:56] Joan Almedilla: Yes.

[1:17:56] Mark Eden Horowitz: And where do you think this musical stands in celebrating that? And where does it not?

[1:18:03] Joan Almedilla: Um, good question. I understand that people react differently to this musical. I do know that as an actor, and for me, it's to educate through this art form. Because if we just say, look, we don't need this anymore. Do we solve anything? Does it solve anything? And I wouldn't also just dismiss the reactive. Otherwise, what's the point if we're not angered? What's the point if we're not provoked? If we're not changed, or we're not moved? Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it, right? Does that make sense?

[1:18:57] Mark Eden Horowitz: Absolutely. What I keep coming back to, because I did an episode on the Book of Mormon musical last year, which also feels problematic in many ways, because it's for the sake of humor, blowing things up and exaggerating things in order to, you know, to laugh. And if it's okay for them to do it in the name of humor, then it is absolutely okay for a culture clash, like the one we see in The King and I, to exist in the name of understanding and love. That's kind of where I'm coming to personally. In the case of a culture clash, you're probably always going to see things a little more exaggerated than they are. But then it's like, what's the intention? Is it the intention to laugh at somebody who's unlike you? Or is it the intention to come together and get to know them, to borrow the title of a song from the show?

[1:20:02] Joan Almedilla: Bartlett Sher was very specific about, you know, making fun of the accent or Orientalism and all that. Like, no, I do not want that. I want to highlight the issues. I want to highlight these people trying to solve problems together, trying to understand it. Like, he was very big on that.

[1:20:25] Mark Eden Horowitz: That kind of goes back to the quote from Jerome Robbins that I was, you know, talking about, which it's one thing to understand the little details and the pieces that you want to focus on. It's another thing to look underneath all of that.

[1:20:42] Joan Almedilla: Underneath, yeah. You're like six layer down.

[1:20:45] Mark Eden Horowitz: And go even deeper.

[1:20:46] Joan Almedilla: Right. Right.

[1:20:47] Mark Eden Horowitz: And if you can do that, like, that's where the true art happens, I think.

[1:20:52] Joan Almedilla: Yeah.

[1:20:52] Mark Eden Horowitz: It's a complex conversation, and I'm sure there are many sides that we haven't even thought to talk about here. And honestly, we don't have time. But it makes me feel encouraged to keep doing the podcast because I feel like the more opportunities we have to have that conversation, the more we can have a clearer vision of the bigger picture.

[1:21:13] Joan Almedilla: Right. Right.

[1:21:15] Mark Eden Horowitz: So, thank you for being part of that perspective.

[1:21:17] Joan Almedilla: Oh, my gosh. Thank you for having me. I hope that I said something that, you know, kind of meaningful and profound.

[1:21:27] Mark Eden Horowitz: Absolutely. Is there anything that we can do to follow you and everything you're up to?

[1:21:32] Joan Almedilla: You can go to my website at joanalmedelia.com. My husband...

[1:21:38] Mark Eden Horowitz: Did he build it?

[1:21:41] Joan Almedilla: Oh, my gosh. I am not a technology person. He tries to teach me, and I'm like, first two minutes, what? Go back. No, I try to learn. And then Instagram, it's joanalmedelia at it's joanalmedelia.

[1:21:55] Mark Eden Horowitz: That's amazing. You're incredible. Everybody follow Joan. And if you ever get the chance to see and hear her live, please do it. You will not be disappointed.

[1:22:07] Mark Eden Horowitz: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Don't forget to follow us on social media on Instagram and Twitter at amusicalpodcast. We're also on TikTok. We've got Patreon! Where for only $1 a month, you can not only support the show, but you'll also receive exclusive content made exclusively for you.

[1:22:33] Mark Eden Horowitz: Wow, I used exclusively way too much. But there is a recent new episode of Listening Party where you get to sit down with me and Joey Contreras, the composer of the musical In Pieces. We listened to his cast album. Anyway, lots of opportunities to stay in contact and be in contact with this incredible podcast community that I am so grateful for. Tell your friends. Tell your wives. Tell your husbands. We want the community to grow even bigger. Hey, Mark, thank you for waiting during that whole thing. It's really incredible that you just sat there and listened to it. I'm kidding. You best.

[1:23:15] Mark Eden Horowitz: No, but I'm so grateful that you're still here because I do want to wrap this up. Once again, congratulations on this new book coming out. Tell us how we get it and where and when.

[1:23:25] Joan Almedilla: It's published by Oxford University Press, but it's available for pre-order now on Amazon. It's due out May 21st, I think it is, or May 17th, something like that. In May, it's due out.

[1:23:41] Mark Eden Horowitz: And I will tell you, I feel such an enormous responsibility to Oscar that I want to just let people know how wonderful he was. And I meant this book to be as much of a pleasure read as possible. And I wanted to show the riches of Oscar and share it with people with the hope that they'll be touched and moved by him in the same way that I was.

[1:24:13] Joan Almedilla: And I should add, as wonderful as Oscar is, it's not just letters by Oscar, but it's letters to him. And it's this fascinating cast of characters that were, many of whom were just names to me. And I knew their credits, but had no sense of their personas before. And I now feel like I know Jerome Kern, too, in a way that I didn't before. And I think your listeners will enjoy it.

[1:24:42] Mark Eden Horowitz: I know they will. I know I will. This has inspired me. I have my friend Jerry's shirt that I've made for RT Public Store, that once again, is always kind of an ironic wink to Jerry Robbins. But I think now I need to create a My Hero Oscar shirt, because he really is one of the people I look up to most as being someone who, from a business standpoint, was able to entertain audiences for decades, and continues to this day, and also be essentially a progressive and someone who can share what they believe in their art at the same time. It is no small task and requires, I think, not only ingenuity and creativity, but integrity. And so I will always look up to Oscar Hammerstein for that very reason.

[1:25:28] Joan Almedilla: Beautifully stated. Hey, thanks, Mark.

[1:25:34] Mark Eden Horowitz: Well, thank you again for coming on. Everyone out there, thank you for listening. And how do I end this?

[1:25:43] Joan Almedilla: It's been nice getting to know you.

[1:25:47] Mark Eden Horowitz: Oh my gosh, that's it. That's it. It's been grand getting to know you.