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[0:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast, where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff.

[0:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Today, we are discussing the musical THE LAST FIVE YEARS, which was a listener request from Megan, who wrote in a long time ago and said, quote, My name is Megan, and both me and my singing teacher, Jenny, are OBSESSED, in all caps, with your podcast. I think we might be your biggest fans from the UK. I would love if you could do an episode for Jenny or a shout out to Jenny as a thank you from me for being such an amazing teacher and helping through my first year of my degree in musical theater. She loves the musicals ORDINARY DAYS and THE LAST FIVE YEARS, unquote. How freaking sweet is that?

[1:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Here's the thing. This email request came in a long time ago, and you know, just like Jamie and Cathy, many things can happen in that time. So I don't know if Megan is even still in school, let alone working with Jenny, but ladies, this episode is absolutely dedicated to you. Alright? Singing is vulnerable. Like, honestly, the relationship between student and teacher is essential. I feel like that's why voice lessons usually end up being at least 20% therapy. So kudos to Megan and Jenny. Thank you both for listening. So grateful you're tuning in from the UK.

[2:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, today's guest to talk about THE LAST FIVE YEARS. Is she a shiksa goddess? Honestly, it's none of my business. But she is a goddess in many other ways, including as a singer and songwriter. She's a recent graduate of NYU, majoring in classical voice, which is incredible because she has 130,000 Instagram followers, 23,000 Spotify listeners who love her more as like a contemporary musical theater artist. So, by the way, that means she's graduating in classical voice while pumping out original content during her senior year of college, which is just bonkers. Anyway, she is preparing to release a live album set called Just Between Us: The Live Album on October 4. Everyone, please welcome to A Musical Theatre Podcast, Grace Yurchuk.

[2:59] Grace Yurchuk: Oh my gosh, that was an awesome intro. Thank you so much for having me.

[3:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, I'm so grateful you're here. Diving right in musical theater nerd, opera nerd. This is something that makes my heart so happy because, as I've said on Patreon, the musical theater and the opera should be friends. But we're often more friend than me's. So what came first for you? And like, how did you end up you?

[3:32] Grace Yurchuk: You know what, I asked myself the same thing. Let me tell you, it's sort of a chicken or the egg situation. Because for me, whenever I get this question, I just feel like music in general has always been a part of me just in every facet of growing up. I've just loved all kinds of music. I've had so many different eras and different phases of different genres. But a fun fact about me is I started like singing in public in church. I've got that children's choir gene in me. So I feel like that sort of leaned into the more quote unquote, you know, classical style.

[4:21] Grace Yurchuk: But at the same time, though, like, almost like at a distance, there was this magical thing that I saw that was musical theater. And it was like, I didn't really participate. Like, I wasn't in drama club or anything for quite some time until high school. I was just like a distant fan. And then the way sort of like a loving mother pushes you towards something that's like, you should really do this. And so like, the thing that I like wrote as I was growing up and as I was saying, like, just slowly became theater and musical theater entered its way into my life. And also with all the friends I made in school, I have so many theater friends who were like, did you know that you write theater? And I was like, oh, I think I do, actually. I didn't notice I've been learning German and Italian.

[5:01] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, yeah. Every aria I learned. It kind of helps, though. The intention that I get from like both concentrations now when I'm writing, I feel like they tag team. It's like an Avengers situation. And I just create something that uses both, which is kind of fun.

[5:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so cool.

[5:16] Grace Yurchuk: Thanks.

[5:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Growing up, starting to feel pulled to musical theater. What were your influences? What were your faves?

[5:22] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I love this question. I was a big Hamilton fan. And I have such a distinct memory of one of my friends in eighth grade. She was like, Grace, you have to hear this. And she didn't tell me what it was. She just put headphones on me and was like, you're gonna like this. And it was "Satisfied" from Hamilton. And I was like, like levitating at the eighth-grade circle table. So that was kind of like an early intro. Other than like, probably the first one that I knew of was like Phantom that I do. I feel like it's a gateway. Maybe it was the classical girl.

[5:57] Grace Yurchuk: Big time gateway drug.

[5:59] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, yeah, I got hooked. Hamilton was a big one. I loved Wicked. I just I went for the big hits. I don't know.

[6:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that.

[6:07] Grace Yurchuk: I guess who wasn't when they were 13 around when I was 13. I loved Heathers like nobody's business. So I feel like I draw a lot of that like pop rock sort of like angst about certain things also shows up in my music at the same time. Just when I was like starting to make my way to theater. And I guess the other one when I finally started doing drama in high school. These are such a funny hodgepodge of shows. It shows me as a person. The first musical I was ever in was Honk! The Musical.

[6:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Was it honk like regular honk or honk?

[6:39] Grace Yurchuk: Just straight up honk. But I had to be one of the siblings and then one of the siblings mysteriously disappeared in act two so I could go be Penny the Swan. Awesome. Great lore that exists there. Then in sophomore year, I did Little Mermaid where I got to be Ariel and ride a helix. So like, that was that was the real.

[6:59] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, that's an upgrade girl. My gosh.

[7:02] Grace Yurchuk: All of which have to do with swimming at some point in the show.

[7:05] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Swimming and like speaking foul.

[7:07] Grace Yurchuk: Yes.

[7:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You know, like, like birds that talk.

[7:10] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah.

[7:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is kind of interesting.

[7:12] Grace Yurchuk: It's a collab. They're all connected maybe.

[7:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm not trying to create a segue or am I? I do sense a little bit of Jason Robert Brown in your writing style. But here's the thing. He's kind of become such a part of culture that if you are a contemporary musical theater fan, you might be referencing him whether you know it or not.

[7:34] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, absolutely. Which also thank you. That's high praise for me.

[7:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: My pleasure. My pleasure. But no, there is there's a you have a performance style sometimes where like you're staring down the camera and it's and it's like lyric vomit like all of these thoughts are just pouring out of your brain without even much effort. Right.

[7:59] Grace Yurchuk: And I feel like that kind of confessional journal, open up your heart, let it all spill out is definitely in the Jason Robert Brown vein of things.

[8:09] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, definitely. I'm loving that you see that in what I put out because I definitely feel that way about Jason Robert Brown. I just I've been thinking constantly about like the way that he writes and like if I can ever emulate because he's obviously phenomenal composer, pianist. I dream of being able to play like that at any point in my life.

[8:30] Grace Yurchuk: If I could ever just like whip out "Moving Too Fast" and just be able to do it, I would like I would be fine forever. That would be it.

[8:37] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We're definitely going to talk about that later.

[8:39] Grace Yurchuk: But I definitely I appreciate that, first of all. But yeah, I definitely think when it comes to his style, he's so I almost think of it when you say like it doesn't take much effort. It's almost like instinct and just like he just very naturally knows how to when to lean and when not to lean into things, when to just like totally spill and when it's like moments that you would hold things back. Just it feels very like human in that way to me. So I definitely like that you called that out.

[9:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I feel like I'm glad I'm glad. Well, let's dive into him a little bit because he is the writer of THE LAST FIVE YEARS. Jason Robert Brown, born June 20th, 1970, grew up in the suburbs of NYC.

[9:24] Grace Yurchuk: Where did you grow up?

[9:28] Grace Yurchuk: I grew up in Warwick, New York.

[9:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: OK, so New York girl. He has said that he probably would have tried to become the next Billy Joel if he hadn't seen Sweeney Todd and Sunday in the Park with George.

[9:40] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Those really interrupted his musical career in a profound way. He started out his professional theater career as an arranger, conductor, pianist. Like you said, he's just such a gifted piano player. For example, he worked with William Finn on A New Brain, if anybody knows that musical. His first big entry, though, into musical theater as a composer, both music and lyrics, was a very famous review. I guess more than a review. A song cycle is probably more accurate called Songs for a New World, which premiered technically in 1995 when it first premiered.

[10:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I will say when this thing came out, it really did feel like a new world for musical theater fans like me that grew up one on pop music and to Sondheim. It was this combination of the two where you're diving into psychology and interesting musical things. But then with like a pop music sensibility that doesn't make you feel quite so weird for listening to it. And I mean, I really loved it. I remember I bought the CDs of Parade and Songs for a New World in the same visit to the Borders in Salt Lake City. Do you know what Borders is? Because it's referenced in THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

[10:57] Grace Yurchuk: I wrote down what it was when I was doing my annual like re-listens for this. And I was like, oh my gosh, I miss Borders.

[11:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Borders, such a good time. I could get lost in, you know, for hours looking through all of the CDs there. But that was my introduction. And I just loved the music so much.

[11:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So when did you first start hearing, I mean, any of his work? Which one was first for you?

[11:21] Grace Yurchuk: This is an interesting question, actually, because I think the first ever Jason Robert Brown song that I heard was "Still Hurting," which also, I was very late to Jason Robert Brown, just because like theater was still...

[11:35] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, you have more important things to do, like Heathers.

[11:39] Grace Yurchuk: Right, of course. And this was super late because I was, I think it was someone else who had gotten into NYU at the same time had post, like we followed each other on Instagram. And I think she posted a cover of "Still Hurting." And I was like, what is this? It was that late. I think that was the first song. And then obviously, it's been full JRB since then. And we did just I think the intro song from Songs for a New World for like, it was the virtual COVID year for my freshman year. And we did that from New Student Spotlight, which has then obviously become a central theme for all of us. We all remember that entire part and like having to record the vocals for like, when the wind starts to blow, like we got into it from our virtual spaces.

[12:23] Grace Yurchuk: So that was a big one for me. And then afterwards came like, Bridges, you know, THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

[12:29] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bridges, I always forget about Bridges. Yes, of course. Of course.

[12:33] Grace Yurchuk: That's got it. Look, Bridges of Madison County has to be like a real calling card to young opera people who are like, is there a place for musical theater? You know, in my voice? And you're like, oh, Kelly O'Hara. Good.

[12:45] Grace Yurchuk: Yes, perfect. There she is.

[12:47] Grace Yurchuk: Wherever Kelly O'Hara goes, I will follow.

[12:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Alright, so *Songs for a New World*, directed by a pretty brilliant director, Daisy Prince. Now, she just so happens to be the daughter of maybe the most famous director in musical theatre history, Harold Prince, aka Hal Prince. Funny enough that *Sweeney Todd* was such a huge influence to JRB, but like, he was the original director. So, *Songs for a New World*, you know, is an off-Broadway success, certainly captures the ears of a generation. His next big show is *Parade*, that then coincidentally is directed by Harold Prince. That show is going to be its own episode because, wow, what a fascinating show in history and process that was. But then his third musical, Jason Robert Brown's third musical, he goes back to working with daughter Daisy, and it is this show, *THE LAST FIVE YEARS*, which is loosely inspired by his own life. Now, how much do you know about the autobiographical nature of this show?

[13:58] Grace Yurchuk: I've got hints of it. I know about the cut song that existed before. But just about, I don't know too much about it.

[14:07] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Okay, did you ever watch the film, it was a Netflix film by Noah Baumbach called *Marriage Story*?

[14:13] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, yes. Ouch.

[14:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: With Adam, what's his bucket?

[14:17] Grace Yurchuk: Adam Driver and Scarlett Johansson.

[14:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly, which now that I'm thinking about has not one but two Sondheim musical numbers in it. But I remember when that movie came out, and it just started, you know, winning every award that it could. And I saw some discourse that was like, oh, how interesting that you can be a total a-hole in your relationship. And as long as you make a movie about it, Hollywood will just give you awards for that bad behavior. And when I saw that discourse, I immediately went, Oh, like *Last Five Years*. I've seen this before.

[14:57] Grace Yurchuk: I've seen this kind of discourse before.

[15:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Long before *Marriage Story* was this whole thing about *Last Five Years* where it is very loosely based on Jason Robert Brown's first marriage. And he is not easy on himself. When you look at the Jamie character, he's pretty hard on himself and very revelatory in terms of his mistakes. But there's at the same time, this like, weird disconnect for certain audiences where they're like, why are we celebrating a dolter or whatever? What do you think about this? I certainly have my opinions. But

[15:36] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, yeah, I definitely, I have a lot of opinions on it. And I've been thinking about the best way for me to articulate them. Because when you're looking at any relationship, or specifically any failed relationship, like nothing is ever black and white. There is one thing in this I think is black and white, and it's the cheating. For me, that's pretty cut and dry. But there are other moments and the way that he's presenting them that I think are the reason we're still talking about it and the way that it's still put up. There's so much to take from it, at bare minimum, no matter which team you're on, which I'm pretty sure we're probably on the same team if you put it in that argument. No matter what, there are going to be moments where just as humans, we're going to be empathetic and be like, maybe there could have been things that both parties could have done differently.

One of my friends, I've told you, and hopefully my besties from school will listen to this as well, because we've talked about this extensively. One of my friends would be an amazing Kathy. I need her to play Kathy at some point. Maggie will be listening to this. But the thing she always says is, well, you know, it just, it takes two to tango. Like how this would always end that conversation. It's true, like you have to sort of look at it holistically. And if we were looking at it so black and white, then it wouldn't have as long lasting like a life that it has had, I think. Absolutely. If it were more problematic, it would have gone away a long time ago.

[17:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Instantly. Yeah. Here's the other thing is that like, if we can't make art about our own mistakes, then like, why are we doing this?

[17:05] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes mistakes are regrettable. And sometimes they're also the best thing that you could do for growing up. You know, I really don't judge him. I actually kind of celebrate him for being able to turn this into something interesting, because I feel like that's our job as artists. And I also don't mean that we should just go out and torture people in order to make interesting art. Like that's not what I think anybody wants either. So anyway, I think we can all just calm down and take this piece for what it is, which is ultimately, it's trying to look at a failed five-year relationship from both sides of the story. Each person has their own truth, and sometimes they're conflicting and contradicting.

But in a relationship, both are true. Feelings matter. Experience should be validated. And that's complex. Now the high concept way of presenting the story that he dove into, was that for the female in the relationship, Kathy, her story is told from the end to the beginning. So when we first see her, it is at the end of the relationship. That being said, the first time we see Jamie, the man, we are seeing the relationship from the beginning. So they are crossing each other in time, with the middle being the only moment theatrically, where they look at each other and connect, and it's at their wedding. And I've said this before, I wonder how confusing it was for people when it premiered in 2001, in the same way that maybe *Merrily We Roll Along* was really confusing to people when it first premiered in the 80s. And I find it no small coincidence that after *Merrily We Roll Along* became the biggest hit on Broadway over the past couple of years, that now we're having a revival of *The Last Five Years* that's coming out with Nick Jonas and Tina. Crap, what's her name?

[19:13] Grace Yurchuk: It's Adrienne.

[19:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Adrienne, of course. Thank you. So here we are. Now, like I said, originally the show premieres in 2001. It premieres in Chicago with the original star Norbert Leo Butz. I mean, we love Norbert.

[19:29] Grace Yurchuk: Man, can Norbert sing.

[19:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Isn't it interesting that in a very short amount of time, he was like the leading man, question mark, right? But like a very short window because then he immediately pivoted into like zany character actor.

[19:45] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah, yeah.

[19:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's so interesting. I don't see Aaron Tveit doing what Norbert did in like a couple of years. Like he's going to ride that leading man thing for as long as he can. You know what I mean?

[20:00] Grace Yurchuk: Why does my heart cry? Of course. Feelings I can't fight.

[20:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I agree. And I think it's so interesting because with Norbert Leo Butz, when he did have this moment, none of them were like, he was just over and over again having these major successes that would become like theater canon. I think that's the part that's the best. Like sometimes there's a couple of things where it's like, oh, I didn't know he was like, no, you know, when he's in something in his prime era.

[20:30] Grace Yurchuk: So big, big Norbert fan over here.

[20:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Of course. His Kathy in Chicago was Lauren Kennedy. She's an amazing actress and now is running a theater and on the East Coast somewhere, South Carolina, something like that. Anyway, I first knew about her because she was the standby for *Sideshow*. It was Alice Ripley, Emily Skinner, and then Lauren Kennedy was the standby.

[20:55] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, there you go.

[20:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: *The Last Five Years* then moves to Off-Broadway in New York. Sherry Renee Scott. I mean, all three of these people I just love so much. Sherry Renee Scott took over the role of Kathy because Lauren Kennedy was doing *South Pacific* in London. So this becomes an amazing Sherry Renee Scott role. Here's the crazy thing, Grace. This production only lasted two months.

[21:23] Grace Yurchuk: Wowza.

[21:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Isn't that insane?

[21:26] Grace Yurchuk: That really is just insane.

[21:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The cultural impact of this little Off-Broadway show is exponentially higher than its original run. Why do you think that is?

[21:40] Grace Yurchuk: We're hitting like early 2000s, right?

[21:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. It's post 9-11.

[21:44] Grace Yurchuk: Yes. I think partially that because where do you go at that point? That was such a huge shift in general for everyone.

[21:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Theater and New York.

[21:55] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, of course. But I have thought about this. I'm like, why the sudden resurgence? And part of me in the broad scheme of things wonders that if this is also because of people re-examining what it means to be connected with someone and just human connection in general within our relationships. I don't want to stand on my soapbox and be like, it's because of those phones. I do think a little bit. I don't know if I can. But in part, I think when that was happening, it was still pretty like, oh, check out this new thing called email. And then 10 years down the line, it's entirely different. And I do think that plays a major part in why it suddenly had this much longer life. And also, I think it's because a little bit the power of Jason Robert Brown.

He is a really marvelous composer. And anyone who's doing like me when I'm like, oh, what else is this person written? Just will stumble upon like, oh, my gosh, what is this? But I do think it is generally like the issue of relationships and the nitty gritty of being honest and open with someone has become more relevant. So I think that's helped a little bit.

[23:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Not only is it relevant, it's classic. Well, this is what we're going to do today. And I'm really excited. It's a little bit different since we only have two characters in this piece. I thought it would be fun if each of us kind of spoke through the show and the journey of the relationship from one character. So I'm going to be kind of looking at things from Jamie's point of view and tracking his side of the relationship, which once again, goes chronologically from beginning to end. And you are going to be tracking Kathy's side of things, which goes from the end to the beginning. And we'll kind of be bouncing back and forth. I think it's going to be really fun because it will give us a lot of great topics and things to discuss. So the show begins and you've already mentioned the first song in the show, *Still Hurting*. So what's going on here at the beginning of the show?

[23:51] Grace Yurchuk: So much, Jeff. So something so interesting about this. Let's just kind of dry it for our listeners here. Without any perspective into the rest of it, we're looking at a woman who has clearly been through a heartbreaking, devastating relationship. And it is over at this point. It is the ending. And it's quite frankly, here's the title, *It Still Hurts*. This is raw and real for this woman. And what I think is so interesting about our Kathy here, Kathy on stage alone, is this is the only time in the entire show, as of any other show when you're listening to the first song, that we can have an unbiased perspective. And since there's only two characters, that's especially important here. The first line in the entire show is, "Jamie is over and Jamie is gone."

Instantly, as an audience member, you have to be like, who's Jamie? Why is this so? What happened? Number one, the biggest question, what did Jamie do? So with her description of this now, we have to be on her side a little bit. And we have to ask these questions. And in a normal show, if this were a thing where it was, okay, we're going in chronological order, we would get to watch her overcome this moment or go on this new adventure. But because her timeline goes backwards now, she's holding in a lot. Thus, again, quote unquote, she's still hurting because she's never fully processed the things that have occurred. That's why it's still so raw. And I think that's why it's more helpful that we're going backwards with her.

This is the way that she sees her future is going backwards and within herself to try to deal with all of these things. Just in Kathy terms. I also read too, because I was just watching interviews with Jason Robert Brown to prep for this wonderful moment I have with you. And it's with the *Merrily* technique, dare I say, with the reverse at the same time as the forward time where they only have that one moment of cross section. It was kind of the only way to keep it interesting is what he said. I don't want to quote him directly.

[25:53] Grace Yurchuk: But he would have had to introduce so many random plot lines to keep this entertaining. But the way that he has this with the inverse, and we're starting with this like 9-8 or whatever the time signature is, a triple meter, sad, completely dark moment, and having to constantly go back and forth and have those questions answered with another perspective. It's great. It just sets up such an exciting and devastating story.

[26:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You're so right. I also think it's such a unique beginning to a musical. What other musical can you think of that begins this low energetically?

[26:27] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, man. I don't know. It's a crazy, crazy idea to invite people into a space and be like, here comes the show and wah, wah, wah. But we know that this is her end, but it's not over.

[26:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mm-mm.

[26:45] Grace Yurchuk: She's in the middle of processing it.

[26:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely.

[26:48] Grace Yurchuk: And I think that that's really interesting and really active and makes it not only an interesting opening number to a musical, but an effective one.

[26:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely. Absolutely. You're instantly hooked on what's about to happen despite how low it is. And it didn't do The Merrily Technique, which is, that frank, being the most hype number in the entire show. And even though it's starting at such a low point and Charlie isn't there, this is different, where we really are starting at a musical, emotional low, and it's still inviting in a way.

[27:20] Grace Yurchuk: I remember reading an interview with Shari Renee Scott, where she said that doing the show with Norbert was interesting because he would come in and be like, have a great show. And she'd be like, okay, thanks. Because she has to start the piece on such a low. And then at the end, she would go into his dressing room and be like, have a great night, good show. And he's like, thanks. I did think about that when I was watching a slam tutorial, not a bootleg, what? I was like, they can't even start on the same page backstage. They must be devastated or at a high. There's no choice.

[27:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No choice. Now we go into Jamie's first song, which is called Schicksal Goddess. Now, I'm not here to talk about the film. However, have you seen the film?

[28:07] Grace Yurchuk: This is the thing. I have not seen the film, which is a crime because Jeremy Jordan.

[28:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, look, he and Anna Kendrick are fantastic and incredibly talented. It's interesting that the film is almost more confusing than the stage version. And because they're going for such realism that to take it out of these kind of dueling monologues, which is basically what the show is, you know, the one person on stage doing their monologue followed by somebody else. And so all of a sudden they are in the same scene together and you're forcing Anna Kendrick to just sit there and listen to Jeremy Jordan talk about all of the Jewish girls that he dated in his teens. And she's doing a good job of being like, we were just making out. We're getting ready to have sexy time. Why are we going here?

All of those weird direction choices, which have nothing to do with me or us. Aside, Shiksa Goddess in the film is really interesting because it's all about the sexy time. Jeremy Jordan and Anna Kendrick are getting it on for basically the whole song. And I think that that is really important because Jamie's infidelities are based on this kind of wanderlust that he has post-nuptials. But in the beginning of the show, all we hear from him lyrically or musically is a devotion to her that almost borders chivalry and ambition for his career. Never once is he like, Kathy has the greatest rack and I can't stop thinking about her body. Like lust is never part of his character until the infidelity. And so I just want to give a shout out to the film because of that intimacy scene.

You see that he is kind of a horndog, that he is thinking about sex and that it is important to him so that when he does stray, it makes sense. It doesn't feel like he's just all of a sudden. It's not like he just all of a sudden became interested in sleeping with women. Does that make sense?

[30:18] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah, absolutely. It does. Because when I'm listening through and you get to, if only a miracle would happen, and you're like, whoa, you just got married.

[30:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah, right. That is good to know, though. That's an interesting choice of him. So I like thinking of Schicksal Goddess, which is this number where he's processing his Jewish guilt for picking a girl that his mom wouldn't be proud of. And by the way, this is one of the big songs that JRB put into the show to assure his ex that this show wasn't completely autobiographical. And I think settled a few legal disputes because of it. But this song is him becoming infatuated with this girl. It's also, and both of these characters have it, it's that piece of like, I've been told what I should want. And yet there's this like call to adventure within my heart that tells me that maybe there's something different out there.

And when they meet each other, I think it is the promise of that. It's the promise for Kathy that she isn't that girl who was in her hometown. And for Jamie, it's the possibility that he doesn't have to do everything exactly like his parents asked him to. And that is part of the force that pushes them together as well.

[31:39] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, yeah, definitely.

[31:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All right. What's the next song for Kathy?

[31:43] Grace Yurchuk: Let's hop in to See I'm Smiling. The dream performance. I want to sing this so bad. Somebody let me sing this somewhere.

[31:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's such a great, it's maybe the greatest musical theater monologue. There's just something about it and something in the shift. And I'm psyched to talk about this one, especially because, so this does connect to Schicksal Goddess actually because of the musical material at the beginning of this song. We're going to hear it again later with much of Kathy's music, I feel like in particular, we hear the roots of this because she's always living in some other moment and some other feeling. And this starts out with the same material as I Could Do Better Than That. It starts out with a more like sullen instrumental version of that because she's trying actively now to revive what has been Jamie has come to Ohio and we don't even know until halfway until the song that it's her show and also it's her birthday and he's actually leaving way sooner than she thought.

And this is an incredibly clever way to introduce what some of the ending problems of this relationship were because for I think the only real time in the show she breaks down and is momentarily angry for like a second. Instead of holding back, she lashes out at Jamie and it's the, I'm sorry, can I say this? The best moment ever. You know what drives me nuts.

[33:09] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, the fact that we could be anyway. There's something so just satisfying about it because we don't hear her come back at it again. And we hear her mentioning like, oh, you're going to go hang out with these other women, which we don't know about yet. At this point, we just think it could be some sort of suspicion. We're not quite team Kathy. Something I think is so wonderful about this on top of being expositional for us since we don't know still quite what has happened other than she's upset about the end of this relationship is that we're getting another bit of a motif that we've heard already. So we are finally hearing something that's repeated and it's the and I at the very end of the song after the sky, whatever, which we've heard and still hurting.

[33:53] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And still hurting. I never thought about that, Grace. You're so right.

[33:57] Grace Yurchuk: It's literally it's the number of times I'd caught it now. I was like, no way. Never finishing her statements. And she's always thinking about what she could say. And I'm what and you're what and she she can't do it. She can't do it until if you're going in chronological order until still hurting. She finally admits that she's been hurt. And for this, she doesn't do it. She lashes out and then she holds back again and is like, well, I guess we're here. So this is so good. And instead of kind of owning her feelings, turns it back around on him. Yeah, instantly. I love that you're sitting there watching me crying and doing nothing at all. Yeah, that's and she could say she could say this hurts me. She can't she can't do it. Oh, great number. So then we go into moving too fast.

[34:46] Grace Yurchuk: Yes. Now, there are two things that stick out to me with these characters in terms of lyrics. The amount of times we hear Kathy say the word better, I think is interesting.

[35:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[35:01] Grace Yurchuk: It's everywhere. Yeah, everywhere. She's always a little obsessed with improvement.

[35:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'd say maybe perfectionism.

[35:11] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah. But the thing that Jamie is obsessed with is time.

[35:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, absolutely.

[35:17] Grace Yurchuk: All of his songs have something to do with time. Yeah. And particularly I mean, this is this is maybe the most obvious one called moving too fast, right? Where you would think with a with a song title like that, it would be him stepping on the brakes and saying, whoa, our relationship is going way too fast, I should step on the brakes. But because he is so ambitious as a as a person. Yeah, he's going all in in every aspect of his life. He's a writer. He was at Columbia writing, his work got seen by somebody and now they're interested in publishing his book. So he left Columbia, he's met Kathy. And she has asked him to move in. There are so many things that are happening quickly. And he's saying, let's do it. Let's go for it. Which may speak to his lack of patience, if we're being honest.

[36:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Here's the other thing that I will say about this song. And I think it also goes back to what we were talking about with the impact of the last five years, is that I feel like this show, and it's very symbolic to me because of this song. This show became the way that we view musical theater through an academic lens in BFA programs. Because every single song in this show is vocally challenging for a student, emotionally active. So Jason Robert Brown is creating material that is doing everything that we as students of the art form are being asked to do.

[37:06] Grace Yurchuk: Absolutely. Yeah.

[37:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So therefore it becomes the new standard. Which also means that when I left college, Moving Too Fast was in my audition book and I felt good about it.

[37:12] Grace Yurchuk: Absolutely. And I was excited and I was like, I understand this art form and how to perform it. And then I moved to Los Angeles and nobody could play the song.

[37:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Nope. Nobody. And I feel like that is such a symbol of the BFA musical theater world versus what the musical theater working world actually is.

[37:38] Grace Yurchuk: Absolutely. Yeah. We're like, okay, this is theater. This is the craft. This is the art form. And then you go out and you're like, oh yeah, that's right. The last five years only ran for two months and nobody can play the music.

[37:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Or nobody can play it. All right. So up next, what's after Moving Too Fast?

[38:02] Grace Yurchuk: We've got, all of her songs hurt my feelings a part of that. Every time I'm like, oh, this one hurts. This one is, we've come to a new point for our dear Kathy, because right now she has been presented as, dare I say, a wet blanket. And it's not her fault. It's because of the order of events here. And especially because Jamie's such a hotshot in the beginning of his timeline. And we're looking at Kathy at her worst. And then it's, you're going back to this like young upstart who's just getting success after success, after success. And then we go back to the sad person. It's unfortunate because it doesn't put her in a good light. However, it's not for too long because now we've made it to a part of that. This one hurts because you find

[39:50] Grace Yurchuk: Listening to her, not actively ignoring her and putting his career first instead of the relationship. She has put him and this relationship at this point, at the center of her life. It's everything to her. And the only way she can imagine it's being reciprocated is by saying, technically, she's a part of his life. So, how much do you think resentment plays into that?

[40:13] Jeff Parsons: There's definitely a little bit of it. It has to be there. It's planted even in "Moving Too Fast." The melody for "Still Hurting" are in his melody line as well. So, throughout his music, we're hearing things over and over again where it's like, these are kind of planting little tiny seeds of resentment that she's not ready to admit when she hears them the first time or is coming close to admitting but not admitting. And she can't acknowledge it. It's something that she keeps in her instead of being like, you know, this makes me upset. I wish you would turn and look at me and listen to me.

[40:54] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah. Yeah. When we hear from her in "See I'm Smiling," which there certainly does seem to be a lot of convincing, self-convincing in that song, where she's like, I mean, in the title, "See I'm Smiling," everything's fine. But she says that she stole this sweater from the costume shop. So, she is not the incredibly successful actress in the same way that he is this newly crowned prince of writing. And it feels like Jason Robert Brown is analyzing that quite a bit throughout this piece about what does success for one artist mean when their loved one, their greatest love is also an artist who isn't experiencing the same success. I think it's really hard for there not to be resentment.

[41:46] Jeff Parsons: It definitely is interesting to me because I think there is a way that you can frame it and talk about it where it's like, she's just jealous of him. And if she brought it up, then like, maybe everything would have been fine. Or like, she should have just gotten over it. There is a lens you can talk about it in that way. But I thought about the reasoning behind it. And it's like, she loves him, she doesn't want to bring him down. And she doesn't want him to be like, the quote, unquote, like, rescue her. I don't think she genuinely wants that. I think she wants this to be a real relationship, and therefore wouldn't impose any of her own insecurities on him intentionally. That's what I think.

[42:24] Grace Yurchuk: I agree. It's interesting when you look at the script, because at the end of part of that, it says that Kathy looks at the book, this book that he's just had published, and that looks at the dedication page, in a way implying that Jamie has dedicated the book to her. And so, see, you're a part of my success. You're a part of my success, which then goes into the "Shmool" song, which is the next one for Jamie. It's Christmas Eve, which I think is no small piece of information, specifically since being Jewish has been such a huge part of his character. So here he is celebrating Christmas, giving a gift to Kathy. And the gift is in the form of this short story that he has written about a tailor named Shmool.

And he is at the end of his life. He's a little unfulfilled. And basically what happens is one magical night, he begins sewing and the clock goes backwards. And the more that he sews, the more time goes in reverse. And as he's creating this, the most beautiful garment he's ever created, he gets younger and younger and younger, which in a way is allowing Shmool to be who he has always wanted to be. And the end of the story culminates with Jamie presenting Kathy with this beautiful watch and saying, I give you time in the same way that this tailor was able to reclaim his time on earth by creating the garment that he'd always wanted. I am giving you permission to be, and this is where I think it's tricky, to be as ambitious as I am and as successful as I am, and that'll make you happy.

And I think that what is underneath is that Jamie feels deeply uncomfortable with his own success, doesn't know how to be there for his partner. And so all he is trying to do is make her successful because that'll fix the relationship.

[44:37] Jeff Parsons: Wow. Yeah.

[44:40] Grace Yurchuk: Right?

[44:41] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. This song I feel like is so tricky to look at because of how simple the end is, where it's just, I give you time, now you can be happy. It's literally what he's saying to her.

[44:52] Grace Yurchuk: That's what he's saying. Be happy now. Do what I do. Go for it. Move too fast. And your life will be like mine. And isn't that the truth? I mean, in relationships, how often do we get in fights with our loved ones because they are not living the life that we would if we were in their shoes, right? But at the end of the day, you didn't marry yourself.

[45:18] Jeff Parsons: That is such a good analysis of this one. I was so excited to hear what you thought about it. I really was because I was like, man, I was like, I was so in Kathy's head too that I was like, I don't even know what Jamie's thinking. Like, what is he even doing right now?

[45:35] Grace Yurchuk: What's next? Is it summer in Ohio yet?

[45:37] Jeff Parsons: It's time.

[45:39] Grace Yurchuk: Oh my gosh. It's perfect.

[45:39] Jeff Parsons: It's time. I went to Ohio for the first time this summer too. So I finally have insight. Yes, one of my friends was out in Ohio. So I was like, I got to this and I was like, I get it. So much of her stuff is just relatable content for me.

[45:53] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. And this is where we finally get to "Borders" too. So this is-

[45:56] Grace Yurchuk: Thank you.

[45:56] Jeff Parsons: Great number. Borders in Kentucky, come on.

[46:00] Grace Yurchuk: Live our early 2000s dream.

[46:04] Jeff Parsons: It's so satisfying every time I'm like someone out there knows that Borders exists.

[46:08] Grace Yurchuk: This will slowly become an interesting line someone has to Google in their BFA programs, but not me.

[46:14] Jeff Parsons: It was not me.

[46:16] Grace Yurchuk: They changed it in the movie to Target and it makes me sad.

[46:19] Jeff Parsons: I did not know that. And now I think I am sad. Well, okay. Now that I'm in pain, let's address "Summer in Ohio," which is kind of, again, what I was saying before, she's going after it. This is the first time-

[46:32] Grace Yurchuk: She's working too.

[46:34] Jeff Parsons: She's working. Like she's being humorous. She's being fun about this. She's not being like, Jamie, I hate this so much. Come save me. She's trying to make it fun. And at the root of it, she goes and sees the book and she says, I put my visa down. She goes and she buys it. She's like, other people think that no one else can have me. I am all yours. I am all in this. And the number one thing that sticks out to me on top of just the humor and the snake and all of this is she says in regards to her relationship with Jamie and just being with him that she finally, keyword finally, got something right. This clues us in. Obviously, we know what's happened before this, that she's been fighting to get out of her hometown and this all meant so much to her and she's been working so hard.

But this to her before stuff is about to go down, she was like, this is it. This is my success. My success might not be my career right now, but I have a success and it's this relationship for her. I think she knows that Jamie doesn't see it in the same way, that something else comes first for him. And it's all summed up in the fact that she is currently doing something for her career out in Ohio right now, but she's choosing instead to think of Jamie and send him this letter and tell him about it. I mean, there are moments where I'm like, I don't think she's having a great time, right? And I think that it's because she misses her husband, number one. And boy, we all reach that point. It's usually the third or fourth week when we're away working that I feel like we have communication problems and stuff. Speaking from personal experience, the other important detail here is Richard. Oh, it didn't even occur to me until now.

[48:20] Grace Yurchuk: There is this dude in the show who wants a showmance and she's saying like, he wants me, but he's not going to get me. So yeah, it may not be the working environment she wants the most, but she's doing it and she's doing it and choosing to be faithful and upfront about it. This guy's coming on to her and she told her husband about it and was like, don't worry. He wants me, but he's not going to get me. It's so upsetting. It's so upsetting to me. I love analyzing music and shows like this because I also teach privately. So I tell my songwriting students about thinking of things objectively and just looking at it and seeing the details. And then every once in a while I'm like, oh, there are some things that just hurt and that's one of them.

Okay, next up is our moment where we're all together, right? The next 10 minutes. It's in Central Park. They're in a boat. They're kind of looking at clouds and just the environment. And I think Jamie's on a high. And I think that that's where this proposal comes from. Everything's going well. So let's take things to the next step. And I'm not saying that that's like the wrong thing to do, but it seems to me to be the reason for the engagement and marriage in the first place. It's like, let's just ride the wave instead of maybe even working on communication or anything else.

[50:00] Jeff Parsons: Absolutely. I feel like that's such a key element of his character as well. And the reason why he gets to go in chronological order and Kathy goes backwards. For him, it's always like, what's the next step? I don't think he's thinking about if you're getting married, you are in it. It is a lifetime commitment and you make a vow to it and you say, I'm going to be this person now. I'm going to be a husband, not just like check off. I'm going to get married. I think he really does see his life as things to just check all the boxes, which is why it makes sense. And how quickly can we do it?

[50:30] Grace Yurchuk: Yes, exactly. Literally, he's like, if I can get all this done, let's go. And when we continue to learn more about where Kathy's been before this for her, it's like the clouds are parting. This is like the magic moment for her. Not in the way that this is going to save her from anything else, which is, I think, how sometimes it gets framed. But in the way that she couldn't have ever even imagined. That's the way I saw it. And granted, this song is so beautiful for both of them. The reason they meet here is because there was love there. They did love each other at some point. And at least this one small 10 minutes, they were together on something. And it was the fact that they loved each other. And I would never say that this marriage was the wrong idea. When they both say yes, and I do in this scene, it makes sense to me.

[51:19] Jeff Parsons: Yeah.

[51:46] Grace Yurchuk: I generally feel like the momentum has caught up to him. He's made all of these decisions, he's had all of the success, and he's finally having an opportunity to sit down and be present in it all. And in those moments, you begin to question, maybe not literally, but you start to notice this woman, and you start to notice that thing, and you start to notice this thing, and it makes you wonder, well, what if? What if I hadn't made this decision? Maybe this is when he starts pivoting more into the Cathy land of, is there something better out there, as opposed to just, all of this great stuff is happening, let's go, go, go, go, go.

[52:32] Jeff Parsons: Right. Yeah, this one, it's so shocking when you get to this point. And I think that's a good analysis of it, that it's caught up to him. He comes off so scattered, and it's so not at all the Jamie we've gotten acquainted with. And it's also the fact that it's juxtaposed by this gorgeous marriage song directly before it. Yeah, you're right. It is a bucket of cold water.

[52:57] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, yeah. We're just as jarred as he is. It's just like, even though we have the perspective of knowing like, bro, you've been going at it a lot, really quickly, and it's no wonder that this is catching up to you. If they could have had communication about it, maybe it wouldn't have been so isolating. Because he does feel very much by himself with these feelings and doesn't know what to do with them.

[53:27] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, which is a shame too, because they're both repressing too much. You can't do that, especially now that we even just talked about it too, where Cathy mentions Richard. The moment that any sort of infidelity or randomly ogling other women out of nowhere, he's not telling her. I don't know if it's because he's ashamed of it at the same time, but the way that the music exists, that it's so upbeat and genuinely a fun song, it doesn't feel that way. It almost feels like he's just on top of the world and thinks that this comes with this sort of success. And again, just doesn't know how to handle it. He can't.

[54:01] Grace Yurchuk: Well, do you think it? Maybe it does. Maybe it did for him.

[54:04] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. I don't know.

[54:06] Grace Yurchuk: At this point, he's becoming God's gift to theater. So, I don't know.

[54:09] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. It's so interesting to think about that and how much of this is mirroring JRB's feelings. Maybe it did happen that when suddenly, out of nowhere, everyone is looking at you and being—I mean, he even uses the savior of writing line earlier in the show. Who knows? It must have also been a lot of pressure and whether or not you mean to write yourself into things. Sometimes, obviously, it happens.

[54:33] Grace Yurchuk: It creeps in.

[54:34] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. If that feeling was real and it existed, then I'm sure it probably felt very similar to this upbeat, crazy, like, it's time to party. You've won. This is success. And being like, is this what success is? I don't know. But anyway. All right. Next up with Kathy. Another bop.

[54:56] Grace Yurchuk: When you come home.

[54:59] Jeff Parsons: Now, this is clearly her audition song, right?

[55:03] Grace Yurchuk: Fun fact, my rep right now is all classical other than the things that I've written or happen to know. So, perhaps I'll get to add this in. Perhaps I'll get the chance to do this because I've seen it done many a time and I think I would eat down. So, all of my thoughts come out of sight. Don't look at my resume. Anyway. So, we have Climbing Uphill, which is also quite interesting. I know I keep mentioning the time signatures because they really do cross in a very interesting way. The meter, time signature, whatever. The fact that the beginning of Climbing Uphill has the four beat, but then the triplets, the da-da-da-da-da-da is there are the signals that, again, where the seeds are planted of hurt. And you know that there's a piece of her that isn't doing well. They give you that clue in the music, which is so clever. But the fact that it also has this upbeat, we are in duple for the most of it.

[56:00] Jeff Parsons: Sorry to interrupt. It also to me is reminding us that she's basically Irish Catholic. Thank you.

[56:04] Grace Yurchuk: Right? Because it's got that like jig and she's talking to daddy, right?

[56:08] Jeff Parsons: Yes, this is true.

[56:10] Grace Yurchuk: So, like she has a very specific upbringing and the intro of this song really knocks that home for me.

[56:16] Jeff Parsons: Oh, for sure. Which is why it is a shame that it isn't obviously like it was in the cut song that like had to be replaced with like that really is Hammered Home. I wish that there was more of it because this feels like the most obvious hint at that that we get. Obviously, like I know it's mentioned, but still. Another key thing in this fantastical audition sequence that so many young women can relate to. There are, I think, two key things you can take. Number one, she is comparing herself to everyone else. It's the better thing that she has. She's other women who've already been to the gym who are building as high as they can. She does not feel secure enough in these rooms.

[56:57] Grace Yurchuk: She doesn't feel special.

[56:58] Jeff Parsons: No, not at all. She feels just like every other person that's going to these auditions. Is it stopping her? No. However, this hurts her. This is not very good for our dear Kathy. On top of the fact that she also says that she will not be a girl who requires a man to get by. Knowing what we know about what's going to happen, it just, you know, they just come for you. It's terrible.

[57:23] Grace Yurchuk: I'm so happy you brought this to my attention because I never thought about like you look at that girl who then sings part of that and is like, maybe my success is this relationship. And then no wonder she's hurting.

[57:38] Jeff Parsons: Oh, yeah. This has become her everything and she knew she didn't want that to happen to her. She's looking at her life being like, I am just like what I didn't want to become. It's terrible.

[57:52] Grace Yurchuk: It's horrendous.

[57:54] Jeff Parsons: That's rough.

[57:55] Grace Yurchuk: Yep. Yep. And on top of that, I think that's why it hurts so bad because I truly don't think the fact that she wasn't a successful actress is the main crux of her hurt. I think that's the main thing that Jamie doesn't get. So sad that it's in this and she's thinking of it while she's going on these auditions. It's what I keep saying about her. The seeds of all of this hurt are there. We know the moments that they're hitting her. She will not acknowledge them. She will do anything but acknowledge them. And that just it's too much. You can't hold on to all of that at once.

[58:30] Jeff Parsons: That's really powerful, especially when you think about how many talented women play Kathy. It's impossible to listen to Sherry Renee Scott or I'm sure Adrienne Warren sing this stuff and then believe that she can't get a callback.

[58:48] Grace Yurchuk: Yes.

[58:49] Jeff Parsons: So you're like, what is it? What is keeping her from really doing this? And it's got to be that self-talk. It's got to be that—

[58:58] Grace Yurchuk: Absolutely.

[58:59] Jeff Parsons: You have to go in and know that you deserve it.

[59:02] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah. And that is something so interesting because I never see someone do this song unsuccessfully. It's always a good performance and you're left being like, someone cast her.

[59:11] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. No, 100%. You just sang that. And by the way, when you come home to me, it's not your audition cut, girl. Do something else.

[59:22] Grace Yurchuk: If it's not, just switch it up.

[59:24] Jeff Parsons: Find another 32.

[59:27] Grace Yurchuk: Right, right.

[59:28] Jeff Parsons: I don't think this is it.

[59:30] Grace Yurchuk: If you're belting like this during this awesome Irish, we've got like a jig going, bring that into the room.

[59:35] Jeff Parsons: Do that section.

[59:37] Grace Yurchuk: Do that section.

[59:38] Jeff Parsons: Thank you. And isn't that, but there's something profound about that. What is more authentic to you? Singing this ballad about dreaming of when this man comes home to her or what is actually going through her brain?

[59:52] Grace Yurchuk: Oh my gosh. Yeah. And it's her roots versus what she's getting into with Jamie a little bit. Because they play when you come home to me with the end of A Miracle Would Happen. Ouch. Yikes.

[1:00:06] Jeff Parsons: Okay. So now we're into the ballad section of Jamie Land. Up next is If I Didn't Believe in You, which I think is—

[1:00:13] Grace Yurchuk: I can't face this song.

[1:00:15] Jeff Parsons: I can't face this song. It hurts.

[1:00:18] Grace Yurchuk: It hurts because I think he thinks he's being supportive once again, but it just, he's saying everything except like, I love you and what do you need?

[1:00:30] Jeff Parsons: Yep.

[1:00:31] Grace Yurchuk: It's a love song that's defensive. That's what I'd say. This is a defensive love song where he's saying, you think I don't believe in you? Well, if I didn't believe in you, why would I be standing here now? That's not comforting, Jamie.

[1:00:45] Jeff Parsons: No, Jamie.

[1:00:46] Grace Yurchuk: That's not helpful. And it's really interesting that it's packaged in this lovely flowing ballad. But it doesn't make me feel good.

[1:00:56] Jeff Parsons: Oh, not at all. Not at all. And it's the fact, for me, since I really was just listening to this over and over again, being like, what's Kathy thinking right now? And the chords being still hurting underneath this is you can just picture this poor woman sitting there in silence at this point, because we've reached this point in the argument. And then him just straight up saying, I will not fail so you can be comfortable. It confirms every fear she has about herself. I will not lose because you can't win. And I've watched Jason Robert Brown talk about this too, where he's just like, that is the moment that it all falls apart. Sometimes you say things you can't take back. That is going to be the thing that tears it apart.

And because we know in the musical accompaniment, we know it's true. We know that this is going to be the thing that before the infidelity, she's going to carry with her. You mean to tell me that if I never become successful, you'll never really love me, and you haven't loved me?

[1:02:02] Grace Yurchuk: The thing is, I love this song because it's so artfully crafted. I hope one day I can do something where every single line can hurt someone's feelings like that. Every time I listen to it, I'm like, ah, that's really mean. But it's so successful. It exactly gets the job done that you need this song to be at this point in the story. It's so good. I should have said what's happening the moment before. He is going to yet another party, another book signing. Do you think in terms of our chronology that this is the moment before or after I'm a part of that?

[1:02:44] Jeff Parsons: Like, is I'm a part of that, the initial book signing? And now here with If I Didn't Believe in You, he's going to yet another one. And she's like, I can't do this anymore. I'm not a part of this. And he's like, just put on your dress, please. And let's go and put on a smile.

[1:03:04] Grace Yurchuk: I'm the one paying the rent.

[1:03:06] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. Honestly, I wonder because it puts Kathy in very two different lights there. I know her as a character that just is pushing things down so much. Would she really go with him even after being this shot down with this argument? I don't think so.

[1:03:24] Grace Yurchuk: If she had the courage to bring it up in the first place, which she doesn't normally have, at least in what's shown, then I have to assume that a part of that was before this. And that this is like, you want me to go to another one? That's the only thing that I think would warrant like the eye rolling and being like, you know what, let's chat then.

[1:03:44] Jeff Parsons: And it also leads to her being okay with going back to Ohio.

[1:03:49] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah.

[1:03:49] Jeff Parsons: Because I'm sure that wasn't her goal. There's this mini monologue that's not on the CD in the script where she's like calling her agent and saying, hey, did you see the good reviews that I sent you? So if you have anything, you know, coming up this summer, I'd be really interested. And obviously she didn't get anything new. So she goes back to Ohio. And then that's where CM Smiling comes in. So I think that the heartbreak you're talking about from this conversation, this very one sided conversation is what sends her back to Ohio.

[1:04:23] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, absolutely.

[1:04:25] Jeff Parsons: All right. Cue my favorite song in the entire show. Can we do better? Because now it's the way I didn't catch it until like really digging into this show recently. Again, the fact that like this theme was way earlier in the show. This finally feels like we've gotten to her roots.

[1:04:43] Grace Yurchuk: The career is one thing, but this. It's the better. She desires something, and unintentionally in this song where she's saying, like, you're going to come meet the parents and you're going to move in with me, is throwing so much on Jamie that prompts moving too fast.

[1:04:58] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, this is when she says, move in with me.

[1:05:02] Grace Yurchuk: Oh, exactly. In the same way that if I didn't believe in you, he doesn't realize he's coming on so mean. In this one, I don't think she realizes she's coming on really strong. I was like, this is it. I've been waiting for this moment. I am locked in. I don't know about you, but let's go. Honestly, this is her version of Schicksal Goddess where she's looking at him and is seeing her future with him in a different way that he's seeing it. I think they both idealize each other in different ways. And the other final special sprinkle of the seed that we needed to know is the fact that she is also in a one-year-long relationship and the guy chose the career over her. He looked like Tom Cruise, and I guess he was good in bed, but he put the career first. And she's like, you're not going to do that. She's like, you're going to meet my parents.

[1:06:41] Jeff Parsons: Exactly. And then you add in Carol Ann with the baby sweater that she doesn't want, and the antithesis of that is a Jewish author from New York City.

[1:06:54] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah. Yeah. You know? Speaking of lists and boxes, he's checking all of them.

[1:07:02] Jeff Parsons: Oh, yeah. I have to say that I dare someone to find a more honestly and earnestly sung phrase than Shari Renee Scott singing, when we get to that house, take a look at my life, take a look at how far. That section feels so from her soul. And it's not just because in Every Day Rapture, we realize that's where Shari Renee Scott comes from as well.

[1:07:40] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah, absolutely. That's true to her personal life. But my gosh, the way that she digs deep and is able to just be one with that material. I could listen to just that phrase over and over again. It's so good.

[1:07:53] Jeff Parsons: It's perfect. This whole song and the way that she does it is just like, she does everything you need to do with it. It's so good.

[1:08:02] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah. So then we are at…

[1:08:04] Jeff Parsons: Now we're in pain.

[1:08:06] Grace Yurchuk: So then we're at Nobody Needs to Know.

[1:08:08] Jeff Parsons: Uh-huh. The Hamilton reference.

[1:08:13] Grace Yurchuk: Can't believe he sampled this from Hamilton.

[1:08:18] Jeff Parsons: So this song begins with Jamie waking up in the bed of another woman, who he calls Kid, which is kind of creepy.

[1:08:27] Grace Yurchuk: Uh-huh. This is such a vulnerable song. And there isn't really a moment of inauthenticity in the entire song. Because it bounces back and forth from trying to get this new girl on his side by turning Kathy into the enemy. It deals with his own personal demons and how he's maybe in a Kathy way, just like, if he can handle it, if he can compartmentalize all of this, then nobody needs to know. And we can just keep going.

[1:09:05] Jeff Parsons: That nobody needs to know also just being about that turmoil that's come with this horrific mistake he's made too. I think that's the part that's the most interesting about this when he refers to their marriage, that they've built a treehouse and he's been consciously tearing it apart on purpose. I guess in a sense, I know he's talking about the privacy and he's telling this other person that Kathy has somehow destroyed his privacy and his life and this marriage has ruined everything. But you know what, dare I say, it takes two to tango. He cannot take accountability for this moment, or for all of the moments we've already seen before.

[1:09:45] Grace Yurchuk: I think you're right. I think he is terrified of failure. He'd much rather have deception instead of honesty. Because if he's honest, then he might actually have to admit that there was failure, right?

[1:09:58] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, absolutely. And yet all of those kind of inner confessions or even literal confessions to this girl are then followed up with, I can't wait to be with you again. Like even though he's recognized the mistake, he's ready for round two or three or four.

[1:10:23] Grace Yurchuk: Right. There's nothing that's going to keep him from going right back.

[1:10:27] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, and he knows. I really do think that because he can't own up to what he wants, and that there would be some sort of failure here, that he's okay with destroying it more and more and more. I think that's the part that hurts Kathy the most in the fact that, See, I'm Smiling happens after this point, because he does not want it anymore. She has the wherewithal to be like, I'm glad you're here. I can't believe you even came to Ohio, even after all that happened, even though he should have gone and should have been supporting her. And it's a whole thing. It's freaking terrible.

[1:11:05] Grace Yurchuk: So then how do we end the show?

[1:11:06] Jeff Parsons: We end it so happy. So happy and sad. We have Kathy singing Goodbye Until Tomorrow, which is definitely her high energy. I just had the best first day of my life. I can't wait until we have the next 10 minutes, the next 10 minutes, the next 10 minutes together. And Jamie singing, I Could Never Rescue You, which what the hell does that mean?

[1:11:28] Grace Yurchuk: That's evil, horrendous.

[1:11:32] Jeff Parsons: It's just like so passive aggressive. I hate it.

[1:11:34] Grace Yurchuk: It really is. In the same way that the other one is, If I Didn't Believe In You, same way, trying to put himself like, and you don't want to say that he thinks he's better than her. But then you get to this point, and he's saying things like this over and over again. It's like, why are you putting yourself above her? She's justice driven and loves you. But feigning humility by saying, I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough to do the crazy thing that you're requesting me to do.

[1:12:10] Jeff Parsons: And so then that's how the show ends, right? With her excited to live the next five years and him, is he hurting?

[1:12:20] Grace Yurchuk: That's what I'm saying. He goes like, I'm not the only one who's hurting here, which is also a really interesting way to phrase that, being like, I'm not the only one. Like, you can't say that you've been making mistakes on purpose to ruin your marriage and then act sad about it the same way that you want to go get married and check off that box and be a husband, and then complain about all that comes with it and treat it like it's a weird obligation to tend to. So, you know what I mean? If you're going to do things, you have to follow through. And if you wanted to end this and you wanted to go not do the bare minimum for your wife, see, I'm injecting my opinion on it, you see, but still sort of objectively, then I don't think he can feel much remorse. And if he does, it's completely misplaced. And I think it's just covering up some level of guilt that he does not know how to process.

[1:13:10] Jeff Parsons: I do think that JRB took himself to the whipping post here.

[1:13:15] Grace Yurchuk: For sure. Like, I give you credit if you're going to portray any bit of yourself that's true in that sort of light and leave it to scrutiny. If you're telling a story that has this much honesty in it, then go for it, man.

[1:13:26] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, yeah. It's incredibly vulnerable. I don't know how I feel right now. Sad.

[1:13:36] Grace Yurchuk: I feel upset. Maybe this is the reason why the show is so enjoyed as an album and maybe not so much as the theater pieces. You walk away going, ugh.

[1:13:48] Jeff Parsons: Yeah. You leave feeling upset. There's a piece of me that is upset by how it is. And I don't know why. Maybe it is. There are things that you see that could have been potential. And if maybe someone had done this or someone had done that, then it would have worked, which would it have? Who knows? But maybe it's that audience attachment that's like, I still kind of wanted it to somehow get solved. Who knows?

[1:14:18] Grace Yurchuk: Well, what's interesting is because we don't see them together that much, there is an inevitability of the failure that I don't always feel with, say, Merrily We Roll Along where I'm like, oop, this is the moment where they lost themselves. Oop, this is where they could have changed. Oop, maybe they shouldn't have been addicted to drinking. You know what I mean?

[1:14:36] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, yeah. I don't feel that way with Last Five Years. I'm like, ugh, they made these decisions, and I'm not sure, based on the skills that they had, that they could have made any other decision.

[1:14:44] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah. Fascinating theater. I think it's far more theatrical than we give it credit for. Once again, when you watch the movie, you're like, oh my gosh, putting these into real situations, you realize the power of a black box and a spotlight and two actors kind of telling stories. That's really all this needs to be in order for it to be compelling. And I find it very compelling.

[1:15:06] Jeff Parsons: Um, thank you so much for doing this with me.

[1:15:09] Grace Yurchuk: Thank you. I could talk about theater with you for 75 more hours.

[1:15:13] Jeff Parsons: Seriously, seriously. So leaving, are we kind of Team Kathy?

[1:15:19] Grace Yurchuk: Yeah. I don't know if it's obvious or not. Definitely.

[1:15:28] Jeff Parsons: Team Kathy needs to like really confront that Irish Catholic lack of communication tradition that she was brought up with. But yeah, I think I'm Team Kathy.

[1:15:39] Grace Yurchuk: Definitely. It's funny. People wouldn't assume this about me because my last name, but I am Irish Catholic through and through.

[1:15:44] Jeff Parsons: Are you really?

[1:15:45] Grace Yurchuk: Oh yeah. I see that. My mom is all Irish. So like, I see Kathy. I know Kathy.

[1:15:51] Jeff Parsons: I know Kathy. I'm related to Kathy. Let me be Kathy.

[1:15:55] Grace Yurchuk: Who knows?

[1:15:57] Jeff Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on A Musical Theatre Podcast, just like our friend, Megan, email me at amusicalpodcast@gmail.com. Remember, Patreon! is ready for you. It's a wonderful community filled with bonus content. I just sent out an email this morning to them when this episode went live and they're helping pick the song that's going to go on our Spotify playlist, which includes a song from every single show that we've covered on the podcast. Also, remember to rate, review, and subscribe because it helps other people find our shows. You can also share and connect with us on social media. We're on Instagram, TikTok, and X. What else? We've got our TeePublic store with fun designs, and I think we need to make a Team Kathy design personally now that I'm thinking about it. All our profits from those designs go to Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS. More than anything, thank you for listening and for being a part of this podcasting community that I just treasure.

[1:16:58] Grace Yurchuk: Hey, Grace, how do we follow you? What's going on?

[1:17:01] Grace Yurchuk: Hey, so you can follow me basically anywhere. I'm posting all the time, and most of the time, it's new music, new musical theater content that I'm writing almost every day. So you can Google me, find it out. My last name is spelled Y-U-R-C-H-U-K. What else do I have to say? TikTok, Instagram, and if you're interested in streaming my music, you can stream basically on any platform that you like, and you can keep an eye out for October 4th because that is when my live album Just Between Us is released. I guarantee you'll like it because there's so many fun things that I share on my socials that you might have heard before, and some things that I've kept hidden in secret for quite some time.

[1:17:39] Jeff Parsons: Yes, yes, can't wait. Such a talent, such a light. So grateful that you're creating beautiful art for us all to consume. Thank you again, everybody out there. Thank you for listening, and remember Wayne the Snake.

[1:17:58] Grace Yurchuk: Remember Wayne the Snake.

[1:18:01] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, because how on earth that equity rider allowed for this woman to bring her pet snake? It's beautiful. I would love to see it. I'd love to maybe hire that agent who was able to negotiate those terms. I want a snake. That stripper, she knows a few things, and I think we need to get her on the pod.