This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Doug Carfrae: Can I tell you about the moment that I decided to join the union?

[0:03] Jonathan Chisolm: Oh, sure.

[0:04] Doug Carfrae: Okay. So, like I said, I had all my points, talking it over with my agent. Should I? Shouldn't I? Is there a market for me? And I go to this audition, and I'm not going to say what show it was, but they were seeing me for the lead as a non-union actor, and I sang my song, and the casting director turned to the writer who was sitting next to him, and they were kind of going back and forth and trying to not let me hear, but not trying nearly hard enough because I literally heard with my own ears, well, if you're going non-union, this is as good as you're going to get. So, I walked out of that audition, and I called my agent, and I said, I think it's time to join the union. This was the time to close the chapter on that part of my career, and if I needed to, like, step up my game, then step up my game, but I'm not going to do another audition where the creative team is talking about me like that right in front of my face.

[0:59] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah, I'm so sorry that happened.

[1:02] Doug Carfrae: Oh, my gosh. It's entertainment industry. What are you going to do? But that is why unions exist, though, is because it's always going to feel like a cattle call a little bit, but the more that we can stand up and say, no, like, we're professionals. We deserve to be treated as such. I think that it's better for everybody in the long run.

[1:23] Jonathan Chisolm: Sure, we're worth something. We're not just a cog in a machine, even though it feels like it sometimes.

[1:29] Doug Carfrae: And look, being a cog in a machine is awesome, as long as everyone realizes how important all of the cogs are.

[1:35] Jonathan Chisolm: Absolutely.

[1:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, we are talking about The Pajama Game. To join me in this conversation is someone who you may recognize. He appeared briefly in our Hairspray episode, and ever since, the people have been clamoring, begging, give this guy his own episode. And we are. We have. We have done that. Ladies and gentlemen, Jonathan Chisolm.

[2:22] Jonathan Chisolm: Oh, thank you so much.

[2:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Jonathan, thanks so much for coming on. And by clamoring people, you mean me, right?

[2:31] Jonathan Chisolm: Blowing up my IG. Thank you for being willing to do the show that, correct me if I'm wrong, was kind of a blind spot in your musical theater history knowledge?

[2:40] Jonathan Chisolm: It was. I knew all the hits from it because, you know, who doesn't? But it was definitely not a show that was on my radar.

[2:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is really funny because I think that for an entire generation, The Pajama Game was the musical that was recycled every couple of seasons at your local community theater.

[3:01] Jonathan Chisolm: Excuse me. You were always doing it at high schools, right? It was everywhere. There was the movie version. And I think that now, as a musical theater-loving world, we really don't see this show very much at all.

[3:15] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah. I mean, the last time that I remember hearing a lot about it was during the Broadway revival in the mid-2000s with Kelly O'Hara and Harry Connick Jr., when it beat out the revival of Sweeney Todd. That's the last real major time that I heard about it.

[3:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Scandaloso.

[3:34] Jonathan Chisolm: Did you see it?

[3:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I did not.

[3:37] Jonathan Chisolm: I did not, no. I remember the big marketing push was this was the sexy Pajama Game, right?

[3:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Um, which is funny because The Pajama Game was always sexy.

[3:48] Jonathan Chisolm: Sure.

[3:49] Jonathan Chisolm: Like that's why it all takes place in a pajama factory.

[3:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. And sometimes I think for a very over-sexualized society, we totally forget that.

[4:01] Jonathan Chisolm: In the 1950s, in 1954, the fact that we were talking about pajamas? Scandalous.

[4:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes. Speaking of. Uh, so it's a really fun, funny show. I think it was really responsible for putting musical comedy, emphasis on the word comedy, center stage, for lack of a better term. And it proved that like you didn't have to have a South Pacific in order to have a really substantial hit on Broadway.

[4:28] Jonathan Chisolm: Absolutely. No, that was, and that was the thing when I was listening to the, um, the original cast album, because I think that's the one that's streaming. You might be able to find the other one too, but that was the one I listened to. And I was just, and I was like, Oh yeah, this is like, every single song is like knockout entertaining and just, and funny and really smart. I can definitely see how it was super popular.

[4:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, I'm really excited to talk about it with you because I feel like this show is going to be a hub for so many things that we've talked about on the podcast up until now. So there's going to be a lot of references from episodes that we've already recorded. That'll be really, really fun. I think for everybody to listen to, let's start though, by talking about a composing team that we haven't discussed on the podcast, Richard Adler and Jerry Ross.

[5:15] Jonathan Chisolm: They are probably best known for Damn Yankees, but Pajama Game is right up there.

[5:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, it's their only two. So let's actually talk about them individually because they are the rare composing team that shares credit for both music and lyrics.

[5:31] Jonathan Chisolm: I can't think of another one.

[5:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. I mean, I guess you can think of a couple of like, of single people who did like music lyrics and book like all together, but I can't really off the top of my head at least think of anybody else who shared that specific credit.

[5:45] Jonathan Chisolm: It takes a lack of ego. That's for sure.

[5:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, sure. Richard Adler, his father was a classical pianist and was like a teacher for Aaron Copland, like incredible pianist. And so he grew up in a very musical home. He served in the army and then came back and started working as a composer. Jerry Ross was born Gerald Rosenberg. Both he and Richard Adler are from Jewish descent. Jerry grew up in the Yiddish theater and was actually really successful as like a singer performer. He meets up with Adler in 1950 and they very quickly become protegees of Frank Lesser. Frank Lesser, reminder for everybody, is who wrote Guys and Dolls. Frank Lesser is also known for being kind of a mentor to many up and coming composers, like Adler and Ross here, also Meredith Wilson, who wrote The Music Man.

And he would, he would ghostwrite some songs if they needed some help and wouldn't take credit. Such as the case in Music Man, he, he wrote My White Night. And also in Pajama Game, he wrote a couple as well. But in both of those instances, you see Frank Lesser's hand in their work. There are weird intervals. There are surprising key changes and meter changes. It's not, it's kind of a departure from Jerome Kern a little bit, in my opinion. Some of that more traditional stuff at the beginning of the 20th century.

[7:14] Jonathan Chisolm: It's all about personality and chemistry.

[7:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, absolutely. I was very surprised with a couple of the lesser known songs in the score.

[7:22] Jonathan Chisolm: Lesser known songs.

[7:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, I wish I had planned that. But that I was very surprised at what you were saying, like some of the intervals and just some of the melody lines, you know, especially for like the 50s. Not at all predictable and yet also really energetic and very hummable. I totally dig them.

[7:42] Jonathan Chisolm: I remember, okay, so I did Damn Yankees. I'm sure we'll do an episode on Damn Yankees in the future. But it was one of my very first shows that I did as a child and I was in like the children's chorus. And I had an entire existential breakdown as to whether I should say Damn Yankees or Darn Yankees on stage. Eventually, I realized I was being a character and not myself. So I could do that. But I remember listening to A Little Brain's A Little Talent. And I was so surprised that hook didn't have a rhyme in it. A little brains, a little talent with an emphasis on the ladder. Usually, there would be a predictable rhyme in the hook. Not the case with these guys.

[8:22] Jonathan Chisolm: I used to think that that lyric was with the emphasis on the ladder.

[8:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So you're ahead of me, at least.

[8:27] Jonathan Chisolm: Ladder with a double D.

[8:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. Now, the first thing that Adler and Ross write is this review. Of course, during this time, a lot of the great composers, Jerry Herman included, were discovered by writing off-Broadway reviews. And the review that they wrote was called John Murray Anderson's Almanac. It was a big hit. We all love it. But what it did provide them was a platform to be seen by the talents of George Abbott. Now, we've talked about George Abbott in our Once Upon a Mattress episode. He is the definition of musical comedy. And at this point, he's already in his 60s. So he's been doing this a long time. And he and Jerry Robbins, which is why I'm wearing my friend Jerry's shirt. Oh, also, I'm wearing my pajamas. I forgot to tell you because we're doing the pajama game. I'm wearing very sensual, oversized flannel plaid pajama bottoms. Drives all the boys wild.

[9:29] Jonathan Chisolm: Now, before we get off of Adler and Ross, the next year, literally the year after, they do Damn Yankees, which is another huge hit. And then, right after that, Jerry Ross gets a horrible lung infection and dies at the age of 29.

[9:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Which is insane. I just turned 29.

[9:48] Jonathan Chisolm: So to think, like...

[9:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Congratulations. You've lived longer than Jerry Ross.

[9:51] Jonathan Chisolm: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. But just the thought of that, the fact that he was gone at that age is just... I knew that somewhere in the back of my head for a long time. But when I...

[10:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I didn't. I completely forgot that that was the reason.

[10:02] Jonathan Chisolm: Me being probably interested in drama. I'm like, oh, they didn't get along and they parted ways. No, no. Literally, one of them passed away after they wrote two huge hits. And we never got to hear anything else they did ever again.

[10:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. It's like one of those, like, what could we have seen had they lived?

[10:21] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah, it's true. Now, if that wasn't awesome enough, the pajama game also was the first Broadway show for one Mr. Bob Fosse, who we did a whole deep dive about in our Chicago episode. Go back and listen to Corey talk about him. It's amazing. But at this point, he, Mr. Bobby Fosse, had been in Hollywood on contract with the studio system. It didn't go so well, except for the fact that he was in the movie version of Kiss Me Kate and choreographed his little section of this number called From This Moment On. So he performs it. He choreographed it. He dances it with one Miss Carol Haney. That comes across the eyes of Jerome Robbins. He tells George Abbott, hey, there's this guy, Bob Fosse. Maybe we should get him as the choreographer.

George Abbott had also heard from this dancer named Joe McCracken. I'm dropping so many names. Just stick with me. They also that he's like the best thing since peanut brittle. So they hire Bob Fosse on, but they keep Jerome Robbins on as co-director so that in case, you know, old hack Fosse can't handle it, that Jerome Robbins can step in, who at this point was, of course, an amazing choreographer to fill in the holes.

[11:36] Jonathan Chisolm: So that is quite a team.

[11:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Nope. To say the least.

[11:39] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah, no kidding. For this like fluffy little show that we're like, oh, it's cute. No, literally, it kind of changed musical theater forever.

[11:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It really did. Kind of insane. The show opens in 1954. It runs for like two and a half years. It wins pretty much every Tony Award that it could except for leading actor and leading actress, which go to Mary Martin and Cyril Richard for Peter Pan, which Jerome Robbins also directed and choreographed. These are some titans in theater at this point.

[12:11] Jonathan Chisolm: Lord. Now, do you know what the musical is based on?

[12:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, the play Seven and a Half Cents.

[12:17] Jonathan Chisolm: A novel first, right?

[12:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes, I believe so. Is written by Richard Bissell and he and George Abbott worked on the script together. Now it's about this pajama factory and they're having some problems because while they're cranking out all of these pajamas, all of the other factories around them have provided their workers with a seven and a half cent raise. Scandalous. The poor people at the pajama factory have not received that raise. And so they're putting pressure.

[12:49] Doug Carfrae: And all non-union work, although my last contract, I did join the EMC program, the Equity Membership Candidate Program. So I'm on my way with points for that.

[13:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Awesome. So for those who don't know, there is a union in our country that oversees all professional theater, and it's called Actors' Equity Association. I'm a member, if you want to listen to our City of Angels episode, we talked to a production stage manager who is also in the union, the Actors' Union. Unions provide us with the opportunity to secure safety precautions, livable wages, and in general, contracts that benefit not only the producers, but the actors as well, the performers and stage managers. Up until, ooh, I think it was up until I graduated college, you got into the union by being offered your card. And it usually meant that a theater company or a Broadway show or something really wanted you, and so then they would just offer you your card.

Now, since The Pajama Game came out, which was kind of the height of unions, membership of unions across the country, not just in Actors' Equity Association, has steadily fallen, along with wages, go figure. I'm not saying that those things are the exact same, but when you look at the chart of both of those things falling steadily since the mid-1950s, you're like, huh, something interesting there. So by the time I graduated college, joining the union was like something you wanted to maybe do, question mark? Is that how you felt?

[15:26] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah, because most of the work that I was auditioning for and all these big cattle call things were all for non-union work. If there were union contracts on any of them, there was maybe one, maybe two, and it just made more sense right out of school, unless I was going to, like you said, get a Broadway show or a tour that was a union tour or something like that. But most of the work seemed to be non-union. So you've got like all of these brand new BFA musical theater grads going into an overpopulated talent pool, fighting for fewer and fewer contracts. And I think the union was like, huh, this isn't looking good. So then they introduced the EMC program, which was an opportunity for actors like you and me to start building up points.

The more that we work at theaters that operate like union houses, they then afford a certain amount of points to the performers so that once the actor accrues that specific number of points, they can actually buy into the union and not wait for a producer to offer it to them. Does that make sense? Did I explain that well?

[16:44] Doug Carfrae: It can be somewhat confusing. That was better than it was explained to me in college. It wasn't explained to me in college at all. So I'm glad to hear that we're getting better and better. When I graduated college, I started working, started accruing points. But even when I hit my maximum points, you still have, I think, like a year to decide whether or not you want to buy in. And I was still kind of struggling. Is there enough work for me as a union actor? Should I do it? Should I not? Do you still feel that way?

[17:13] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah. Well, I know at least relatively recently, the number of points you had to accrue has dropped. It used to be, I think, 50 points. And now it's 25 points.

[17:26] Doug Carfrae: Oh, wow. They slashed it in half.

[17:27] Jonathan Chisolm: I'm pretty sure. Yeah. Don't quote me on that. Because the gig that I worked, I got 11 points. It was a long contract. It's definitely something that will be on my mind because my goal is to do a Broadway show and things like that that require it, so obviously. But it is definitely something because all of my work, it's all been at these small theaters with small groups of people who come to see the shows and all that sort of stuff. The logistics of it.

[18:00] Doug Carfrae: Intimate.

[18:00] Jonathan Chisolm: Yes. Good word. Or just in places where there's just not a whole lot of theater. I've worked in Montana and places like that. You can only afford the kind of quality that you can afford.

[18:14] Doug Carfrae: Right. And there are a lot of non-union actors who are incredibly talented and just as talented as a lot of union performers.

[18:22] Jonathan Chisolm: Oh, by all means, let there be no hesitation or question on the matter. Talent is not the issue. I was even thinking about in terms of production design.

[18:33] Doug Carfrae: Oh, no, sure. Absolutely.

[18:36] Jonathan Chisolm: Where it's like, what are you going to spend your money on? Are you going to do 1776 with union actors and no costumes? You know what I mean? What are you going to decide to use your money for? I didn't work with a union stage manager, I think, until 2018, maybe 2019, honestly. Even that was kind of like, okay, where's the money going? You know what I mean? You could see it on stage in the shows. It was going somewhere, but occasionally you did think, where's the money going if it's not in my pocket?

[19:14] Doug Carfrae: Fair question. I have to say, I've heard horror stories from friends of working at certain non-union theaters of how they're treated, but I've personally been very lucky to work at theaters that while the hours may have not been something a union would appreciate, those places are still like family to me. I'm going to visit one later this summer.

[19:30] Jonathan Chisolm: That's beautiful. That's so great to hear. I'm really glad. By all means, I'm also not saying that unions are the answer to everything because I get really annoyed with my own union sometimes. I've been really annoyed lately throughout all of this COVID stuff about the amount of information that was and was not coming to me from my union. There are always gripes, for sure. I tend to not be the type of person that's like, burn it all to the ground and start over. It's all broken. I tend to not be that kind of person.

[20:02] Doug Carfrae: I am in the same kind of boat. If it's broke, you don't need to burn it.

[20:06] Jonathan Chisolm: Right. Very good. You can just fix it.

[20:12] Doug Carfrae: All right. Well, let's talk through the show because it's a really fun one. Everything else that we need to talk about will come up, I'm sure. The Pajama Game starts, like I said, in a pajama factory. Right from the get-go, we have this guy named Heinz who's talking directly to the audience and he's saying, look, this is a metaphor.

[20:28] Jonathan Chisolm: As silly, I mean, yes, as we just talked about unions and things like that, but this show gets so silly at times to come out and start the show by saying, this is serious. Right. This is a very serious drama.

[20:46] Doug Carfrae: Right. It just makes me laugh. It's not taking itself seriously at all.

[20:54] Jonathan Chisolm: If there is any symbolism to be found, it's that when they say, we're in the business of making pajamas, it seems that this business is actually in the business of making love because everybody's horny here. They're all looking for their one true love or their next two-minute love. Whatever it is, everybody's looking for love. You'd have think they've all been in quarantine for a year or something. Maybe we need to do The Pajama Game out of quarantine. Everyone will be like, I am Prez.

[21:23] Doug Carfrae: Oh, I hope not. Don't be Prez.

[21:26] Jonathan Chisolm: Prez is problematic, for sure. We got Heinz. Who is Heinz? He's like...

[21:32] Doug Carfrae: He's the timekeeper, right? He's the one that's keeping everybody on schedule. His job is to look at the clock and make sure that the amount of product they're pumping out is the fastest they can do.

[21:44] Jonathan Chisolm: Right. Who else do you have at the factory? You got Prez. Let's actually just talk about him. Prez doesn't seem to be the brightest bulb in the bunch, the sharpest pencil in the desk.

[21:59] Doug Carfrae: And yet somehow is the head of the union.

[22:01] Jonathan Chisolm: Right. Well, there you go. No comment. He seems to be in charge of getting this seven and a half cent raise passed and yet is so distracted by all of the women constantly around him. Poor Prez. Is there anything worse than being a straight guy and just being tempted constantly by all of those women who are just flaunting themselves in front of him?

[22:29] Doug Carfrae: It's true.

[22:30] Jonathan Chisolm: Oh, I'm just playing my small violin right here. You also have Babe. Babe is in charge of the grievance committee. I love that there's a committee for grievances. Now that's just called Twitter. She is in charge of that. Maybe this would be like HR. She's in charge of HR for the union. And then you've got this brand new superintendent who is kind of overseeing all of production. His name is Sid. Now, Sid and Babe are the couple that you know are going to end up together.

[23:05] Doug Carfrae: And it's kind of unfair because there are no two cuter names together. Sid and Babe.

[23:10] Jonathan Chisolm: Babe and Sid. If you're going to do one of those Brangelina type things, Save or Bid are also cute. It's just inevitable. These two are meant to be together. You also got Hasler, who is kind of the epitome of corporate businessman. He's a fighter and he is not letting his workers get that seven and a half cent raise because he keeps telling them that it will destroy the company. Finally, you've got some secretaries. You got Gladys, who is Hasler's secretary, and she is Sassafras personified. She also is kind of dating Heinz, except that Heinz is always so jealous of her talking to any man that they're constantly fighting.

[24:56] Doug Carfrae: Right. Lord.

[24:58] Jonathan Chisolm: And then you also have Mabel, who is Sid's secretary. And those are kind of our main folks. Just a soap opera waiting to happen. And I can't help but think that this is the reason why the show was done so much is because you've got so many great characters, so many little standouts for lots of different people. So it's a really fun show to do and showcase a lot of fun talent.

[25:23] Doug Carfrae: Right. Which is probably why they're so popular in high schools and community theaters, because then you can be like, oh, yes, my daughter has like a big, big moment. Come see her.

[25:38] Doug Carfrae: The recording artist. He has one of the most, in his words, the perfect musical theatre voice.

[25:44] Jonathan Chisolm: It's a lyric baritone. Look, he's not wrong.

[25:47] Doug Carfrae: You can't fault the man. He's, you know, maybe not the most humble person, but he's right.

[25:54] Jonathan Chisolm: God rest his soul, he's been gone for a while, but still.

[25:56] Doug Carfrae: No, but like, you hear him sing and you can almost hear the panties drop.

[26:00] Jonathan Chisolm: It rattles rafters even through a sound system. It's insane.

[26:06] Doug Carfrae: I'm so impressed by him, even by today's standards.

[26:10] Jonathan Chisolm: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I would, yeah, if he, you know, we should have so many voices like that today. Men's voices.

[26:17] Doug Carfrae: He was originally going to go into opera, and then Billy Bigelow came around and it completely changed his life.

[26:22] Jonathan Chisolm: Right. Yeah, because I remember, I'm a big John Raitt fan, if that wasn't obvious.

[26:27] Doug Carfrae: I remember watching an interview with him where he talked about his audition piece for Carousel was the aria from The Barber of Seville.

[26:33] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah, that's what he actually auditioned with, and it kind of became his trademark until they wrote "Soliloquy" for him, and then that became his trademark.

[26:42] Doug Carfrae: And he's playing opposite Babe, who is played by Janice Page, who I have heard is an incredible woman, an amazing actor. On this recording, she is unpredictable.

[26:55] Jonathan Chisolm: It's true.

[26:55] Doug Carfrae: I don't mean to talk that poorly of Janice Page, but these songs are very, very challenging, and she is holding on with like every last fiber of those vocal cords.

[27:06] Jonathan Chisolm: Meanwhile, next to her, John Raitt is just like comfy as can be.

[27:09] Doug Carfrae: Absolutely. I mean, she, I really like her voice a lot.

[27:14] Jonathan Chisolm: It's got a lot of character.

[27:15] Doug Carfrae: Absolutely.

[27:15] Jonathan Chisolm: She sounds really great.

[27:16] Doug Carfrae: Yeah, but I totally understand what you mean. And I think, again, me with my stories, but I think I saw, she's still alive. She's 98.

[27:25] Jonathan Chisolm: Yes.

[27:26] Doug Carfrae: And...

[27:27] Jonathan Chisolm: God bless Janice Page.

[27:28] Doug Carfrae: Right. And I think I recently saw a video where she sang, not recently, obviously, because of COVID, but within the last, like, say, five years or something, she sang something from The Pajama Game that was like a parody where she was...

[27:38] Jonathan Chisolm: Oh, cute.

[27:39] Doug Carfrae: And it was, and she, and you know, she's 98. So what do you want from her voice at this point? But...

[27:43] Jonathan Chisolm: Right.

[27:43] Doug Carfrae: It was still, you were like, oh yeah, there's that kind of sex pot energy still.

[27:47] Jonathan Chisolm: It is.

[27:47] Doug Carfrae: At 98. Yeah, it's really cringy.

[27:49] Jonathan Chisolm: You're right. It is kind of a sexy, smoky feel.

[27:53] Doug Carfrae: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, giga.

[27:54] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah. No, I would have loved to have seen her in the theater because I bet she was a ball buster.

[27:59] Doug Carfrae: Oh, absolutely. She's one of those dames.

[28:03] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as we're meeting all of these characters and Sid has his song about the blue town, Babe gets her song, which is called "I'm Not At All In Love," which why this song doesn't get performed more is beyond me. It's a great, great tune.

[28:19] Doug Carfrae: Yeah. For like an, for an, for a, you know, a pre-65, as we say in the business, um...

[28:26] Jonathan Chisolm: Please explain yourself.

[28:27] Doug Carfrae: Okay. In the, in auditions, we are asked to bring in audition pieces, songs, and often they will say we want something from this era. And if they're not going to get too specific, then they'll usually either say we want something from pre-65, 1965 or post-65. And pre-65 is usually the more, uh, what we consider the classic musical theater sound.

[28:45] Jonathan Chisolm: Golden age.

[28:51] Doug Carfrae: Yeah, absolutely. And then any, and then post-65, you get into Sondheim and things like that.

[28:55] Jonathan Chisolm: Schwartz. All the Stevens.

[28:56] Doug Carfrae: All the Stevens.

[28:59] Jonathan Chisolm: Agreed. Um, yeah, this is a great tune.

[29:02] Doug Carfrae: It is. It's a great song. And you know, a lot of different female voices can, can sing it and sound really great on it. I, you know, cause I mean, if you listen to, um, Janice Page and then go or then go listen to Kelly O'Hara, you couldn't think of two more different vocals.

[29:16] Jonathan Chisolm: So true.

[29:16] Doug Carfrae: But they both sound great.

[29:18] Jonathan Chisolm: You're, you're totally right. Um, Ballbusters in very different ways, but Ballbusters nonetheless.

[29:23] Doug Carfrae: Very true.

[29:23] Jonathan Chisolm: I promise that's the last time I'll say Ballbusters. Next up, we have Gladys and Hines. Like we said, his jealousy is always flaring up and he was played by...

[29:35] Doug Carfrae: Eddie Foy Jr.

[29:36] Jonathan Chisolm: Thank you. Who is like a very famous comedian, right?

[29:39] Doug Carfrae: Absolutely.

[29:40] Jonathan Chisolm: Very famous character actor.

[29:42] Doug Carfrae: Once again, everybody loved the show because it was just so darn funny and you had such hilarious people. Gladys was played by Carol Haney.

[29:51] Jonathan Chisolm: Now let's talk about Miss Carol, because like I said, she was dancing on screen with Bob Fosse in Kiss Me Kate.

[29:59] Doug Carfrae: So then when Bob Fosse gets hired as choreographer, he brings her into the cast.

[30:04] Jonathan Chisolm: She originally is just going to do a few dance features, but George Abbott falls in love with her and bumps her up to a bigger role, this role of the Secretary Gladys, and it turns her into a huge Broadway star.

[30:16] Doug Carfrae: She wins the Tony Award for Best Featured Actress that year and not only became a huge star because of performing, but also a choreographer.

[30:29] Jonathan Chisolm: And do you know what she choreographed off the top of your head?

[30:32] Doug Carfrae: You tell me.

[30:33] Jonathan Chisolm: She choreographed Funny Girl and She Loves Me.

[30:38] Doug Carfrae: I'm not making this up.

[30:41] Jonathan Chisolm: I love She Loves Me.

[30:42] Doug Carfrae: Who doesn't?

[30:43] Jonathan Chisolm: We on the podcast love She Loves Me.

[30:46] Doug Carfrae: Unfortunately, kind of like Jerry Ross, right after Funny Girl, she passes away.

[30:51] Jonathan Chisolm: And so her career was cut short as well.

[30:54] Doug Carfrae: So Gladys and Hines are always fighting because he's jealous. She leaves and the other Secretary Mabel and Hines have this great song called "I'll Never Be Jealous Again," in which she's enacting exposure therapy on him and creating these scenarios where he has every reason to be jealous, but then he's going to calm himself down, use a little self-care, a little self-talk, and not be jealous of her.

[31:20] Jonathan Chisolm: Of course, by the end, he can't take it anymore.

[31:23] Doug Carfrae: And those feelings just flare up again. It's one of those great second banana songs.

[31:28] Jonathan Chisolm: Next comes the inevitable meet-cute between Sid and Babe.

[31:33] Doug Carfrae: And of course, Babe is not interested because she is all business.

[31:36] Jonathan Chisolm: The union means everything to her.

[31:38] Doug Carfrae: She's looking at getting the seven and a half cent raise.

[31:42] Jonathan Chisolm: Sid, however, is full on hit by Cupid's arrow and is falling for Babe.

[31:50] Doug Carfrae: And so he sits down to his desk.

[31:53] Jonathan Chisolm: He's got one of those little dictaphones where you talk into it and it records your voice.

[32:00] Doug Carfrae: And it's such a fun conceit for a musical number.

[32:04] Jonathan Chisolm: He starts singing into the dictaphone as a memo to himself.

[32:09] Doug Carfrae: And the memo is the legendary song called "Hey There."

[32:14] Jonathan Chisolm: Now, when the second verse starts, he's actually listening to the quote unquote recording that he just made of himself.

[32:20] Doug Carfrae: And then he starts answering back to his own voice, kind of creating this little scene between him and himself.

[32:28] Jonathan Chisolm: It's such a cute idea.

[32:30] Doug Carfrae: And I mean, what could be better than John Raitt singing with himself?

[32:35] Jonathan Chisolm: And he'd be the first one to tell you.

[32:36] Doug Carfrae: It's true.

[32:38] Jonathan Chisolm: "Hey There" is one of the great classics from this show.

[32:42] Doug Carfrae: It was a huge hit for Rosemary Clooney from, of course, White Christmas fame.

[32:48] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah, I mean, you just look at the list of people who've sung this song, though.

[32:51] Doug Carfrae: It's insane.

[32:51] Jonathan Chisolm: I mean, like every crooner or woman with a certain type of smoky loveliness to her voice has sung this song.

[32:58] Doug Carfrae: And we hear it three more times throughout the show.

[33:01] Jonathan Chisolm: So don't worry if you didn't get enough this time.

[33:03] Doug Carfrae: They knew they had a hit.

[33:05] Jonathan Chisolm: Amen.

[33:05] Doug Carfrae: And they did.

[33:07] Jonathan Chisolm: Next up, there's this picnic.

[33:09] Doug Carfrae: It's a company picnic.

[33:12] Jonathan Chisolm: There's this entire scene where Heinz comes with these knives.

[33:19] Doug Carfrae: This is like something that would only happen in a musical in the 1950s.

[33:22] Jonathan Chisolm: And I'm so happy that it would.

[33:25] Doug Carfrae: Heinz shows up with these knives.

[33:26] Jonathan Chisolm: And he's like, I have this amazing knife trick where I throw knives.

[33:30] Doug Carfrae: And everyone's like, oh, good. Let's see it.

[33:33] Jonathan Chisolm: And it turns out that Heinz is actually a really great knife thrower.

[33:37] Doug Carfrae: I believe, and I could be wrong, but I believe it was they added that in because Eddie Foy was a knife thrower.

[33:42] Jonathan Chisolm: Like that was something he did.

[33:43] Doug Carfrae: Well, and it's definitely coming out of that whole vaudeville period of time where it seemed like everybody needed to do everything.

[33:49] Jonathan Chisolm: You needed to have at least a couple of stupid human tricks, like in your back pocket, just in case you ended up on the vaudeville circuit and needed to throw knives.

[33:59] Doug Carfrae: Sure.

[33:59] Jonathan Chisolm: You know, not everyone can bump it with a trumpet or something.

[34:02] Doug Carfrae: The amount of musical theater references in this episode alone.

[34:05] Jonathan Chisolm: You're welcome.

[34:06] Doug Carfrae: Toward the end of the picnic, they sing this great song called "Once a Year Day."

[34:12] Jonathan Chisolm: This is one of my favorite songs in the whole score.

[34:13] Doug Carfrae: Yeah, it's a good one.

[34:14] Jonathan Chisolm: And it's a huge group number.

[34:16] Doug Carfrae: It provided Bob Fosse with an opportunity to really show that he could choreograph for large groups, that he wasn't just kind of a minimalist.

[34:26] Jonathan Chisolm: So by the end of this great song, "Once a Year Day," Babe and Sid decide that maybe they like each other a little bit more than Babe wants to believe.

[34:38] Doug Carfrae: So the next great scene that we have is at Babe's house, and we meet her father, who's obsessed with stamp collecting, and he and Sid hit it off right away, of course.

[34:50] Jonathan Chisolm: Pop goes to leave, and Sid really starts, like, turning on the heat.

[34:55] Doug Carfrae: Like, some of this dialogue's pretty sexy.

[34:57] Jonathan Chisolm: Hold on. Let me see if I can find something.

[35:00] Doug Carfrae: She says, I'm going to make a sandwich. Want one?

[35:02] Jonathan Chisolm: And Sid says, that's my baby, boys.

[35:04] Doug Carfrae: She wants a sandwich.

[35:06] Jonathan Chisolm: No, honey, I don't want a sandwich.

[35:08] Doug Carfrae: Food is not uppermost in my thoughts at the moment.

[35:12] Jonathan Chisolm: And it turns into this great song called "Small Talk," where Sid's like, I don't want a small talk. We're alone together. Let's get this thing going.

[35:21] Doug Carfrae: It's kind of like a less problematic version of "Babe is Cold Outside."

[35:24] Jonathan Chisolm: I was just thinking that.

[35:26] Doug Carfrae: Really?

[35:26] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah, I literally was just thinking.

[35:29] Doug Carfrae: I don't think this is one of the songs that Frank Lesser wrote, but it could have been that kind of same idea.

[35:34] Jonathan Chisolm: I don't know.

[35:38] Doug Carfrae: It doesn't feel rapey to me at all.

[35:39] Jonathan Chisolm: Not at all.

[35:40] Doug Carfrae: And maybe it's just the genuineness of it.

[35:45] Jonathan Chisolm: It does come across as flirting, not in a creepy kind of way that most people take, you know, like, "Babe is Cold Outside."

[35:54] Doug Carfrae: Yeah.

[35:54] Jonathan Chisolm: Well, and like, let's be honest, rarely in courtship is everybody on the exact same place of the page at all times.

[36:01] Doug Carfrae: Right.

[36:04] Jonathan Chisolm: Part of the fun is figuring out where the other person is and trying to meet them there.

[36:10] Doug Carfrae: And Babe at this point is a very no-nonsense gal.

[36:13] Jonathan Chisolm: And so she's playing hard to get.

[36:15] Doug Carfrae: She really is.

[36:16] Jonathan Chisolm: And she finds I think she has some power in that.

[36:18] Doug Carfrae: Absolutely.

[36:19] Jonathan Chisolm: I agree with that.

[36:20] Doug Carfrae: And I don't think Sid pushes, you know, doesn't go over a line.

[36:24] Jonathan Chisolm: You know what I mean?

[36:24] Doug Carfrae: Like, there's still, you know, he's like.

[36:26] Jonathan Chisolm: He's respecting her.

[36:28] Doug Carfrae: And then it gets really saucy because she is looking for her apron while she's cooking because she doesn't want to get any grease spots on her new dress.

[36:40] Jonathan Chisolm: She paid 20 bucks for it.

[36:42] Doug Carfrae: And she looks at him and says, well, I might as well be practical.

[36:48] Jonathan Chisolm: And she takes off her dress.

[36:50] Doug Carfrae: And so now she's like walking around in her slip for him.

[36:53] Jonathan Chisolm: It's sexy, right?

[36:55] Doug Carfrae: No, I mean, I mean, that's like, you know, again, I use this word a lot. But that's scandalous for the 50s.

[37:01] Jonathan Chisolm: Lord.

[37:02] Doug Carfrae: By the end of this scene, they're on the same page.

[37:07] Jonathan Chisolm: To say the least.

[37:08] Doug Carfrae: It's very, very cute.

[37:10] Jonathan Chisolm: Okay, now the next scene is back at the factory.

[37:14] Doug Carfrae: Except now Sid and Babe are, you know, a thing.

[37:17] Jonathan Chisolm: They're walking on cloud nine.

[37:18] Doug Carfrae: Everybody can tell.

[37:20] Jonathan Chisolm: Oh my gosh, another great song. "There Once Was a Man," which this one, I believe, was also written by Frank Lesser.

[37:26] Doug Carfrae: Yes, I believe you're right.

[37:26] Jonathan Chisolm: But it's so fantastic.

[37:28] Doug Carfrae: It has kind of like a dun-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

[37:30] Jonathan Chisolm: Like a.

[37:31] Doug Carfrae: Like you feel like horses.

[37:33] Jonathan Chisolm: Like they're like horses trotting.

[37:35] Doug Carfrae: Go listen to it.

[37:36] Jonathan Chisolm: Once again, I would not be mad to hear this more in my life.

[37:39] Doug Carfrae: Oh, absolutely.

[37:41] Jonathan Chisolm: I don't know what you could, I mean, I guess it would be, I would love to hear it more in like cabarets and things, you know.

[37:46] Doug Carfrae: Yeah.

[37:46] Jonathan Chisolm: It's a great little, it's a great like back and forth and then you can sing together.

[37:49] Doug Carfrae: It's, you know.

[37:50] Jonathan Chisolm: If at any point you're like, oh, you know what we should do? We should do "Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better" from Annie Get Your Gun.

[37:57] Doug Carfrae: Erase that thought and replace it with "We Should Do There Once Was a Man."

[38:01] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah, I can get behind that for sure.

[38:04] Doug Carfrae: Okay, once again, Hasler, stand and firm isn't going to let that raise happen.

[38:10] Jonathan Chisolm: And so what the girls who make the pajamas decide to do is to slow down their work, right?

[38:16] Doug Carfrae: Because Heinz was always there with the clock, racing with the clock.

[38:20] Jonathan Chisolm: And so they're going to slow everything down.

[38:22] Doug Carfrae: And that, of course, makes the superintendent, Sid, mad.

[38:27] Doug Carfrae: Babe also gets mad and she kicks one of the machines, one of the like the sewing machines, and it breaks and she's abruptly fired by Sid. Scandaloso. Absolutely. And that's how the first act ends is Babe's fired from the factory and Sid is heartbroken because he's the one who had to fire her and he sings a reprise of "Hey There."

[38:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: All right, everybody, it is officially intermission and today we're actually going to have a little bit of a halftime show. I always love when I use sports metaphors on this podcast, really read the room. Everybody, please welcome my friend Doug Carfrae, who is joining me to talk a little bit about the show, the history and his life in general. Doug, welcome.

[39:15] Doug Carfrae: Hey, Jeffrey Scott Parsons, how are you?

[39:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I'm pretty darn well and I'm so excited to see you. It's been way too long.

[39:28] Doug Carfrae: It's been way too long and one of these days I'll see you in person actually again and, you know, that'll be nice.

[39:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It'll happen. Joyful day of days. Yes. All right. Now you have a very special relationship to The Pajama Game. Can you talk to me about that?

[39:39] Doug Carfrae: Okay, so I did the first revival of Pajama Game, originally started in, I think it was 1954. I'm thinking 54. I could be wrong. But in 1973-4, I did the first revival and the first revival was a black-white cast. It was Hal Linden and Barbara McNair played Sid and Babe and Heinze was played by Cab Calloway. Legendary Cab Calloway. But there were a lot of cool people in that company. Somebody you know, S. Mark Jordan, who is now-

[40:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No way, R.I.P.

[40:20] Doug Carfrae: He played Prez. In the ensemble, there were people like-

[40:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Mary Jo Catlett was in there, right?

[40:28] Doug Carfrae: Yes, she was. I love Mary Jo Catlett. We became friends then-

[40:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Friend of the podcast.

[40:36] Doug Carfrae: And we've stayed friends forever. Mary Jo and I are good old buddies. Chet Walker, who created Fosse, was one of the dancers in the show. It was a great experience.

[40:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So now, what did you do in the show?

[40:49] Doug Carfrae: I was- Now, you got to go way back. And when you go way back to what they call the golden age of musicals, there was a singing chorus and there was a dancing chorus. And that-

[40:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is pre-chorus line.

[40:59] Doug Carfrae: Yeah. Well, that's what I was going to say. Chorus line changed everything and made it so impossible for me to be in the chorus anymore. But I was a singer in the chorus and understudied some of the small parts, like part of Charlie and the part of the first helper and the second helper, little stuff like that. This was my first big show. And so I was like, well, I was kind of like a little puppy. Everything was new. Everything was exciting. Everything was shiny. And I was so excited to be doing this. I didn't pay any attention to the things that I would today, like box office receipts and how the show was doing and wasn't doing and all of that kind of stuff. I just watched fabulous people work. And I got to work with George Abbott.

[41:44] Doug Carfrae: No, not only did he write the book of the show, he basically wrote the book of musical theater, like how to do musical comedy on stage. And by the time you worked with him, he wasn't a spring chicken. So what was that like? What was he doing at this point?

[42:01] Doug Carfrae: Well, you know, he lived to be one hundred and seven. So ninety four, he was still a spring chicken in that case. But he was old school. I mean, he started out at the turn of the century. So he came to every rehearsal in a coat and tie and never, ever saw him not wear a coat and tie. And I never heard anybody address him other than Mr. Abbott. You didn't call him George. And you didn't. He did great work. The thing about Mr. Abbott also being old school is he said, this is where you go. You turn here, you go there. This is the line reading I'm going to give you. This is how you do it. And you turn on this. You do. Here's the here's the beat. Here's the joke. You turn on the joke. You do this.

And there was not any of what you'd call what we do today is what is my motivation for that? Sure. Organic. There was no organic. It wasn't pretty much George. Mr. Abbott said, I'm going to tell you what to do and where to go and how to say it. And you're going to figure out how to make it organic. It's your very Alfred Hitchcock. I know Hitchcock wasn't considered kind of the same way. And and and obviously he was very successful because he did an awful lot of show. But he also produced a number of them, too. So he it was it was terrific to work with him and watch him work. He had an interesting time with Cab Calloway, because Cab, who is a great actor, but also a band singer and well known for Heidi, Heidi, Heidi Ho, if you know that, of course, Heidi, Heidi, Heidi.

He always tried to sneak that in some place in the show. He would just and Mr. Abbott would go, no, no, no. And so it was it was that that was kind of interest because Cab Cab was a quite a quite a character.

[43:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Do you feel like the audience had changed at all from the 1950s? I mean, by the time you you did it again in the 70s, had things shifted a little bit?

[43:55] Doug Carfrae: I think they had. And I think knowing I was going to talk about this has sent me down memory lane and and like bringing it back. Lots of stories of my of my remote youth and Broadway, Broadway. By the time Pajama, the revival of Pajama Game happened, Broadway was on a downturn. The whole Times Square area was a scary place to be. You never walked down 42nd Street. At that point, you never went east of eight that west of Eighth Avenue. And now, of course, 10th, 11th. Those are fabulous now buildings that people live in. But but in those days and Broadway had gone down because I think a lot of people were a little concerned about coming into that that kind of crime and that atmosphere. So and I think they thought by doing this show that doing and maybe they thought doing it with a black, white, interracial cast would bring something. And it was an easy show to do, but it didn't have the success they thought it would. Interesting stuff. Do you have any other memories that you that you'd want to share?

[45:00] Doug Carfrae: Gosh, well, let's see. I remember something and it probably this is going to probably be something I shouldn't tell the story. I shouldn't tell, but I'm going to tell it anyway. Most of these people are dead, so it doesn't matter. Fair enough for opening night. Hal Linden had ceramic plates made that were the opposite of at the end of the show. Babe has on the pajama tops and Sid has on pajama bottoms. Very scandalous. But but Hal had a drawing. He drew it himself and had to put on these these ceramic plates that was the opposite. Babe had on the bottom and he had on the top. Well, yeah, that was a little a little too much for some people. And I I hear this. I don't know this for a fact, but I hear that Cab Calloway was so upset about it that he took a hammer to the plate the minute he got it.

That's that's legend. And and Hal is still alive. So hopefully he will not listen to your podcast, because if he does, he'll be upset because he probably doesn't know that Cab Calloway took a hammer to the plate that he gave busted up his plate.

[46:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Look, at this point, he's got it. I would wear it as a badge of honor either way.

[46:17] Doug Carfrae: Yeah. But it was, you know, some one of those things like, oh, well, yeah, he was he was being funny and being cute. But I think it was maybe offended a few people and that people is the pajama game. I have one more story, and that is about Barbara McNair. Barbara was she was married to somebody who after our show in the mid 90s was was killed in a mob killing. So she was married to a mobster. We didn't talk about it, but no one got near her. She always had two goons backstage guarding her. And it was it was a kind of a strange thing to be to be backstage when you have two guys that are, you know, looking a little a little just lurking. Yeah. And protecting her outside her dressing room waiting.

You did not get to see Barbara through those guys unless I guess she let you come in or something. But it was that was an interesting thing to know that actually whoever the mob guy was that she was married to, I forget his name. He was protecting her using his mob connections in New York City.

[47:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, my gosh. And it was kind of like the the poor chorus boy who like tries to, you know, spark up a conversation backstage just talking about her high belting and then ends up getting pummeled in the back alley. But we never you just didn't do that. You know, you just didn't you didn't really I didn't have a real close relationship with Barbara because you just didn't do that.

[47:43] Doug Carfrae: Oh, my gosh. That's so interesting. Those are two little stories that I that probably I'm telling way late, but people are dead. So it doesn't matter. And we're OK. I love it. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. Now, speaking of close relationships, it's kind of perfect that you're on this episode, too, because we have spent a little bit of time talking about unions and in particular the actors union. And you have had a close relationship with Actors' Equity Association for a long time. When did you first join?

[48:23] Doug Carfrae: I joined Equity in 73. I became a counselor of Actors' Equity Association in September of 1978 and have been a counselor or an officer. I didn't realize you had been an officer and or a counselor straight through since 1978. So it's been 40 something years. I've been I've been on council. So tell us a little bit about what that means.

[48:42] Doug Carfrae: All right. So council is the governing body of the union. They're volunteers. They're elected. There are there are 83 counselors and officers, actually 75 counselors and eight officers. I started out as a chorus counselor. I became a principal counselor. Then I got elected to the Western Regional Vice President and have been the Western Regional Vice President since 2003. Council meets. Well, we used to meet once a week. But then this last year during COVID, we met 50 or 60 times. So we meet a lot to take care of business for the union. And and then we're on you're on a bunch of committees and committees really are what are the basis of the union. The committees are general members are on a committee.

Theater comes, wants to do a show. They talk to the committee. The committee says, yes, no, do this, do that. Then they go out. That then goes to council. Council approves it and it happens. So committees started and councils are the council is the final governing body and staff executes the policy, if that makes sense.

[49:48] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, no, totally. I don't think I've ever had it explained to me that clearly. So thank you. That makes a lot of sense to me. And because I'm the Western Regional Vice President, there are three regional vice president, the Eastern Regional Vice President, Central Regional Vice President and the Western Regional Vice President. Then there's the president, the first vice president, second vice president, third vice president and the secretary treasurer. That is a group of officers. And we meet. Oh, God, we meet all the time, too. So pretty much what I do for the union is every day all the time. It's been that way, but it's it's all right. It's what I do. You know, some people some people have other charities they work for and they do stuff for.

This is what I consider my giving back. It's my charity. And it's not totally altruistic because rising water lifts all boats. And so if I'm working on a contract and I get better, better terms for a contract, it will mean for me when I work that contract, I will have better terms myself.

[50:47] Doug Carfrae: So as an actor, it doesn't hurt me to also work on trying to make life better for everybody.

[50:51] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I mean, that is kind of the definition of solidarity, right?

[50:58] Doug Carfrae: Yes. We have to speak as one voice as a union. If we don't speak as one voice, we really we will crumble. Unity is something that we always struggle with as humans. But in particular, I know that my generation has often struggled with unity in terms of the union. And once again, going back to the pajama game when the pajama came came out in the mid in the early

[51:16] Jonathan Chisolm: The Pajama Game is a really interesting musical because it was one of the first to really tackle labor issues in a comedic way. It’s set in a pajama factory, and it revolves around a labor dispute between the workers and management.

[51:44] Doug Carfrae: Absolutely, and it’s fascinating how it blends humor with serious themes. The characters are relatable, and the music is catchy, which makes the message even more impactful.

[52:12] Jonathan Chisolm: Right! The songs are so memorable, and they really help to convey the emotions of the characters. You have this romantic storyline intertwined with the labor struggle, which adds depth to the narrative.

[52:40] Doug Carfrae: And let’s not forget the choreography! The dance numbers are vibrant and really bring the story to life. It’s a perfect example of how musical theatre can combine various elements to create something special.

[53:08] Jonathan Chisolm: Exactly! The choreography complements the music beautifully. It’s not just about the singing; it’s about the entire experience of watching the show.

[53:36] Doug Carfrae: And the cultural impact of The Pajama Game is significant. It opened the door for other musicals to address social issues, paving the way for future productions that tackle similar themes.

[54:04] Jonathan Chisolm: Yes, it’s a trailblazer in that sense. It shows that musicals can be both entertaining and thought-provoking, which is something we still see today.

[54:32] Doug Carfrae: And the legacy of the show continues. Even though it’s not produced as frequently now, its influence can be felt in many contemporary works.

[55:00] Jonathan Chisolm: Definitely! It’s a classic that deserves to be revisited. The humor, the music, and the message are timeless.

[55:14] Doug Carfrae: I agree. It’s important for new generations to experience it and understand its significance in the context of musical theatre history.

[55:34] Jonathan Chisolm: And speaking of new generations, I think it’s great when younger performers take on these roles. They bring fresh perspectives to the characters and the story.

[55:54] Doug Carfrae: Absolutely! It’s exciting to see how they interpret the material and make it their own while still honoring the original intent of the creators.

[56:24] Jonathan Chisolm: And let’s not overlook the original cast. The performances were groundbreaking at the time, and they set a high standard for those who followed.

[56:54] Doug Carfrae: Yes, the original cast brought so much energy and charisma to the roles. Their performances are still celebrated today.

[57:24] Jonathan Chisolm: It’s a testament to the strength of the material. The Pajama Game has a way of resonating with audiences, no matter when it’s performed.

[57:54] Doug Carfrae: Exactly! It’s a show that can adapt to the times while still holding onto its core message about workers’ rights and love.

[58:24] Jonathan Chisolm: And that’s what makes it so special. It’s not just a musical; it’s a reflection of society and the struggles that people face.

[58:44] Doug Carfrae: Well said! It’s a reminder of the power of storytelling in musical theatre.

[59:04] Jonathan Chisolm: I hope more people get the chance to experience The Pajama Game, whether it’s through a live performance or a recording.

[59:32] Doug Carfrae: Me too! It’s a show that deserves to be celebrated and remembered for its contributions to the art form.

[1:00:00] Jonathan Chisolm: And I think it’s important for us to keep discussing these classics and their relevance today.

[1:00:30] Doug Carfrae: Absolutely! The conversations around these shows help to keep their legacies alive.

[1:00:56] Jonathan Chisolm: And it encourages new artists to explore similar themes in their work.

[1:01:26] Doug Carfrae: Yes, it’s all about inspiring the next generation of musical theatre creators.

[1:01:54] Jonathan Chisolm: I’m excited to see where the future of musical theatre takes us, especially with the foundation laid by shows like The Pajama Game.

[1:02:22] Doug Carfrae: It’s a bright future, for sure. The possibilities are endless!

[1:02:52] Jonathan Chisolm: And I’m grateful for the opportunity to discuss it with you today.

[1:03:22] Doug Carfrae: Thank you for having me! It’s been a pleasure to dive into this classic with you.

[1:03:52] Jonathan Chisolm: Likewise! Let’s keep the conversation going about the impact of musicals in our lives.

[1:04:05] Jonathan Chisolm: Including another reprise of "Hey There," but this time it's Babe.

[1:04:09] Doug Carfrae: Oh, you're so right. So that is different because Babe is missing her guy as well.

[1:04:13] Jonathan Chisolm: For the revival, because they hired Harry Connick Jr. And there were other numbers included for some of the other characters too, but primarily I think they wanted to give Harry Connick Jr. more to sing because he doesn't really have that much to sing in the second act. And I know they added a song called "The World Among Us," "The World Around Us." And then also I believe Heinz, because they hired Michael McKean, who's a very well-known character actor from probably most famously now "Better Call Saul."

[1:04:46] Doug Carfrae: Oh, interesting. I was like, of course, "Clue."

[1:04:49] Jonathan Chisolm: "Clue" too. But I was thinking of like, because I mean, we would say "Clue," but I was trying to think, you know, like, what's the most popular thing he's done recently? If there is anybody listening to this podcast who has seen more of "Better Call Saul" than "Clue," I want to know who you are. Because that makes me feel like I am attracting people that are not just me. And that makes me feel really, really good.

[1:05:15] Doug Carfrae: And I am determined to enjoy myself and my soup is delicious.

[1:05:20] Jonathan Chisolm: We could just recite the rest. That's the rest of the podcast is we're just the rest of this episode will be us performing the screenplay of "Clue."

[1:05:27] Doug Carfrae: That used to be a party trick of mine is doing most of that speech that Tim Curry does at the end of that.

[1:05:31] Jonathan Chisolm: Oh, really? That's impressive.

[1:05:33] Doug Carfrae: I haven't done it in years. So I'm not—don't—that's my way of saying don't ask me to do it.

[1:05:37] Jonathan Chisolm: That's your knife throwing. That's like you're—if you were to ever work with George Abbott, they'd be like, okay, what you got in your back pocket? You're like, well, have you seen "Clue"? Okay, so what was Heinz's new song? Because the one that's coming up of his is called "Think of the Time I Save," which is a great song. The song that's great. The new song was "The Three of Us, Me, Myself, and I."

[1:06:03] Doug Carfrae: Oh, cute. Yeah. And it was—I don't know that one from my research. It was written by Adler. He wrote it for Jimmy Durante, like back in the day. And they just incorporated it into the show because again, they had an actor, Michael McKean. So it kind of becomes like another kind of 11 o'clock-ish number for that character. In the meantime, "Think of the Time I Save" is Heinz's song where he talks about like being ruled by the clock, right? It's pointing out the absurdity of productivity. How about that? Right? It's a very well-crafted comic song that really has a fun point to it too. You know what I mean? The very last verse that he has, he says, "Before I'm dead, I'll dig my grave. Because when St. Peter calls my name, I know I'll get there just the same. But think of the time I'll save." So good. Oh, so smart.

[1:06:51] Jonathan Chisolm: So I guess I kind of failed to mention at the beginning that there's this secret ledger book that Hasler has, the boss, and he doesn't let anybody see what's in it. And in fact, he has his secretary Gladys wear a key around her neck, and it is the key that opens the book. So like even if you leave the book laying around, you couldn't get into it because you need the key. It's like one of those diaries. So Sid has the idea that, look, if I'm going to get back together with Babe, if we're going to fix this problem at the factory where all of the girls are pretending to sew really slowly, then I need to find an answer, and the answer may be in that ledger book. But in order to get into it, he needs to convince Gladys to give him the key.

Now, Gladys refuses. But then Sid says, well, then at the very least, let's go out to dinner or go out to a club tonight just for fun. Not romantic, because I know you're with Heinz, but like, let's do it. And Gladys is a good time gal. She's been performing "Steam Heat." So we all know she's game for some dancing. She's like, great, I know this place. And it's called Hernando's Hideaway. Another legendary song.

[1:08:06] Doug Carfrae: Absolutely.

[1:08:07] Jonathan Chisolm: That to this day, people probably hear and don't realize is from "The Pajama Game."

[1:08:13] Doug Carfrae: Right.

[1:08:14] Jonathan Chisolm: Do you remember like, now that's what I call music 23 or, you know?

[1:08:18] Doug Carfrae: Oh, yeah.

[1:08:19] Jonathan Chisolm: "Dance With Me" by Dabla Morgan is 100% on there. And I'm going to play it for you now to see if maybe you recognize the song. Here we go.

[1:08:51] Doug Carfrae: That's just "Hernando's Hideaway."

[1:08:53] Jonathan Chisolm: "Hernando's Hideaway."

[1:08:55] Doug Carfrae: Lord.

[1:08:55] Jonathan Chisolm: Anyway, it's literally "Hernando's Hideaway," but it was turned into "Dance With Me" by Dabla Morgan. And boy, oh boy, does that song sound like the 2000s?

[1:09:04] Doug Carfrae: I was about to say, I was like, where are we? Did we travel? Did we time travel? What's happening? Why is Britney and Justin Timberlake dressed in all denim? But just goes to show like, that groove that they came up with with this song reached far beyond the musical.

[1:09:18] Jonathan Chisolm: And very adaptable.

[1:09:20] Doug Carfrae: Apparently.

[1:09:23] Jonathan Chisolm: All right, so Hernando's Hideaway. This is what the club that they go to. It's got this amazing song. It was quite revolutionary in that when they go to the club, it was completely black, like they didn't have any lights whatsoever. And so that was something really novel for the audience to be experiencing this number in the dark. And then like a flame would flicker over here, and the match would be lit over there. And so they were playing with kind of the absurdity of really quote unquote, cool places that are so dark, you can't even see anything.

[1:09:56] Doug Carfrae: We've all been there.

[1:09:57] Jonathan Chisolm: But also a really fun opportunity for Bob Fosse to come up with some really interesting tango movement, another tour de force for Carol Haney, hitting it out of the ballpark.

[1:10:08] Doug Carfrae: Right? Well, and you need that, you know, bring the audience home because, you know, we're, you know, then we have to wrap up the plot.

[1:10:11] Jonathan Chisolm: Exactly. Unfortunately, Heinz comes to Hernando's Hideaway and sees Sid with Gladys. And of course, we know that he has a big jealousy problem. So in the 1954 version, this gave way to the Jealousy Ballet. And this is probably now that I'm thinking about it, where they put that song that you—

[1:10:36] Doug Carfrae: I believe you're absolutely correct. Yes.

[1:10:40] Jonathan Chisolm: After the Jealousy Ballet or whatever version you see, we're back in the office. And Sid, by the way, was able to get the key from Gladys, who had a little too much to drink at Hernando's Hideaway. And so he was able to look in the book and see, spoiler alert, that the seven and a half cents has already been figured into the operating costs of the factory.

[1:11:09] Doug Carfrae: Dun dun! This boss has been pocketing the extra money as profit.

[1:11:15] Jonathan Chisolm: Bad boss.

[1:11:16] Doug Carfrae: Bad, bad businessman. With this newfound information, he tells Prez to hold off the strike, that they should maybe have a parade or something instead. And he's going to go talk to the boss, and then he'll come and meet up with them later. So Prez and all of the kids have this great parade talking about how life is going to be so much better once they have seven and a half cents. Seven and a half cents isn't very much a lot. In the meantime, Sid talks to Hasler and reveals that he knows exactly what's going on. And then it only is a matter of time before he, Sid, goes to all of the kids and announces that they get the raise!

[1:12:01] Doug Carfrae: Yay!

[1:12:03] Jonathan Chisolm: So now we're at the finale, right? I mean, everybody gets what they want. Even the business owner is able to finally fill the orders that have been pouring in and haven't been filled because nobody's working at the speed that they can. The workers get their seven and a half cent raise. And of course, Sid and Babe are able to make up and be in love.

[1:12:26] Doug Carfrae: Aww.

[1:12:28] Jonathan Chisolm: The end!

[1:12:28] Doug Carfrae: Yay!

[1:12:30] Jonathan Chisolm: I just can only imagine how an audience would leave. And exactly what we were saying earlier, making it really feel like a true, the real musical comedy of it all. The real, like, happy ending. Everyone gets what they want. Everyone ends up with who they need to end up with. And you send the audience home with a tune that they can hum. There are specific moments that I really treasure in which I laughed so hard in the theater and everyone else laughed too. And for a split second, we were bonded in a way that goes beyond words.

[1:13:06] Doug Carfrae: Oh, that's the power of live theater.

[1:13:08] Jonathan Chisolm: It is. It is. And while it can come from really serious and contemplative pieces, it can also come from just full-out belly laughs. And I think that that is also the power of theater, is that it doesn't have to just be one genre or one approach. You can really change lives in a whole myriad of ways by using the same art form.

[1:13:33] Doug Carfrae: A friend of mine once said that a simple musical comedy—and they used musical comedy in quotes, because it was said to them in a derogative sense—but a musical comedy, a simple musical comedy has the power to change people's lives.

[1:13:49] Jonathan Chisolm: And the truth is, is that in 1954, this musical was pretty leftist.

[1:13:54] Doug Carfrae: Oh, yes.

[1:13:54] Jonathan Chisolm: Like, if you're talking about politics, you know, as silly and as funny as it is, the fact that it was then done in community theaters all over the country, making people comfortable with the message that unions maybe have your back more than big business.

[1:14:13] Doug Carfrae: Sure.

[1:14:14] Jonathan Chisolm: Like, that's a pretty impressive wave.

[1:14:16] Doug Carfrae: Sure.

[1:14:17] Jonathan Chisolm: Corporations have spent the last 50 years trying to destroy that idea in the general public.

[1:14:26] Doug Carfrae: Yeah. No, you're exactly right. And they've been kind of successful, in my opinion. But for a moment there, nothing quite like making people laugh and also giving them something that might change their society and culture along with it.

[1:14:41] Jonathan Chisolm: One thousand percent.

[1:14:42] Doug Carfrae: Well, this has been really fun. Thank you so much, Jonathan.

[1:14:47] Jonathan Chisolm: Thank you so much for having me, Jeff. I appreciate it.

[1:14:50] Doug Carfrae: I can't think of a more pleasant way to spend for what is me my afternoon.

[1:14:54] Jonathan Chisolm: Best of luck. I hope that we get to meet someday in person.

[1:14:57] Doug Carfrae: Me too.

[1:14:58] Jonathan Chisolm: As always, if you have shows you'd like to recommend for us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Follow us on social media on Twitter and Instagram at amusicalpodcast. We're also on TikTok doing some great videos. We've got our Teepublic store. And please subscribe to our Patreon!

[1:15:20] Doug Carfrae: Where for only one dollar a month, you can gain access to exclusive content that is not available on our regular feed. It's really, really awesome. I'm so grateful for all of those who have subscribed so far.

[1:15:28] Jonathan Chisolm: And keep it coming, because it will allow this show to continue in the future.

[1:15:35] Doug Carfrae: Hey, Jonathan, how do we follow you on everything Europe?

[1:15:38] Jonathan Chisolm: You can follow me on Twitter and Instagram at J-S Chisholm, C-H-I-S-O-L-M-2-2. You can also follow me on YouTube at Jonathan Chisholm II. And I post videos, try to make you laugh, try to make you cry, whatever I can do to get us through this time that we're in currently.

[1:15:57] Doug Carfrae: Everybody out there, thank you for listening. And remember, I don't know, what kind of pajamas do you wear? There's our sultry conversation ender.

[1:16:07] Jonathan Chisolm: Oh, you're actually asking?

[1:16:09] Doug Carfrae: Yeah, I'm actually asking.

[1:16:10] Jonathan Chisolm: Oh, Lord. Oh, I wear, I just wear like a night shirt.

[1:16:14] Doug Carfrae: Okay, the night shirt. That's nice.

[1:16:18] Jonathan Chisolm: Yeah.

[1:16:18] Doug Carfrae: I grew up in a basement, in like a cold basement. So I am used to sleeping in full pajama attire.

[1:16:26] Jonathan Chisolm: And see, and I'm from the South, where it's always hot and humid. Always, even with the air on.

[1:16:31] Doug Carfrae: There you go. Everybody, let us know what you wear to bed. Goodbye.