This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Up until this episode, I had never seen The Will Rogers Follies. Confession, I had never seen it. And the original Broadway production was filmed for Japan Television? I had no idea! And the entire thing's on YouTube! Of course, you've done it a lot, right, Jeff?

[0:19] Jeff Rizzo: I've conducted it. I did one production I conducted, and I played in the pit for two other productions. So yeah, three times.

[0:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, going into this, I honestly was thinking, like, do we really need to look at a show in which the point of view is the philosophies of a straight white male? Is that what we really need right now in 2020? And that's kind of how I felt watching maybe like the first half of The Will Rogers Follies on this filmed for television version. And then this little piece of information was spilled. And I went, brr! Apparently, Will Rogers is the only person, at least that I know of, the only person that was asked to speak at the Republican National Convention and the Democratic National Convention in the same year. And he even says it in the show. That's even mentioned in the show. It kind of goes by fast.

[1:13] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah, like they just kind of spit that out.

[1:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I like, totally had a railroad track moment. And that really flipped my whole perspective on covering the show today. Because I was like, what does he have that is crossing this bridge between political parties that have always been so polarized? But what is he doing? What is he getting at? And that's kind of what I'm really excited to talk about today. That makes sense. Also, you know, remember, he's of Native American descent.

[1:35] Jeff Rizzo: Right. And you look at the original cast, and it's like Keith Carradine playing Will Rogers. So I'm like, oh, it's a straight white cowboy. And then you get into the show and you realize, oh, he's part Cherokee. Well, no wonder he's able to cross bridges, which leads me to my thesis statement, which is minorities are who teach us how to build bridges and cross them. The end. Have a great day, everybody.

[2:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to a musical theater podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite shows, favorite musicals, rather, in theater history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons. You can call me Jeff. Today, joining me on the podcast is another Jeff, and I'm going to be talking about musicals. And I'm going to be talking about musicals that have had an impact on our lives. And I'm going to be talking about musicals that have had an impact on our lives. And I'm going to be talking about musicals that have had an impact on our lives. And I'm going to be talking about musicals that have had an impact on our lives. Hi, Jeff. I'm so glad you're here. I always refer to you as Jeffrey because since you use that professionally, Jeffrey Scott Parsons. Or JSP. I like to call you JSP. I think I wrote you an email saying, hey, JSP.

[2:44] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah, why not write all that out? When I was starting out, I was gonna use my full name with my middle initial Jeffrey J Rizzo. I thought, oh, that looks good. And then after a while, I thought, you know, Jeff Rizzo. It's no, it's great. It's a great letter. It's cleaner. It's you know, it doesn't sound so I don't need, you know, the three names Ricky I and Gordon, Jason Robert Brown. I thought I am Michael John the Cousin all the way. Yeah, I've just in fact, we talk is an emphasis avoid for auditions of white composers that have three names.

[3:18] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Anyway, fair enough. Jason Robert Brown. Oh my gosh, you're so right. Difficult, difficult music you don't want to do anyway. So I so I just use Jeff Rizzo. And it's I'm glad I did because it's now it's just more. No, you are Jeff Rizzo. And you are a wonderful music director in Los Angeles. Well, I guess everywhere, but you're based in Los Angeles.

[3:40] Jeff Rizzo: Based in Los Angeles. You are no stranger to spectacle, which I think makes you also a great guest for this show. The Will Rogers Follies, because you spent how much of your life working on The Wizard of Oz?

[3:53] Jeff Rizzo: Well, I was thinking about that today. I think I've done 13 productions of The Wizard of Oz, three of which gravy were well, there was Paper Mill and then Paper Mill for five years later became we moved to Madison Square Garden and then every year we remounted it and toured. So if you count those as each a production plus productions I did before productions I did done since so like there's 13 Wizard of Oz's I think in my life plus we actually did a cast album recording, which got a Grammy nomination.

[4:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's amazing. Yeah, that was the thing I think was the same year as I eat it. I can always pick which show would win because whatever was the most poppy show had the most poppy score thing would win the Grammy. So of course. So I think you're Lion King. Everybody was upset because it won over Ragtime. Well, Ragtime won best book and best score and then Lion King won best musical. And people said, What do you think about that? I said, I think that went the way it should go. I think Lion King changed the game. I think Ragtime didn't have the best book and didn't have the best score. But Lion King overall was this amazing talk about spectacle was an amazing show. It's still running, for God's sakes.

[5:05] Jeff Rizzo: What's interesting and talking about the Lion King and Ragtime and that year is that the Tony Awards year for The Will Rogers Follies, it won best musical, but it did not win best book that went to The Secret Garden. It did win best score. It won all of the design elements. But it was definitely not the show that got the best reviews. It got a horrible review in the New York Times. Go figure, right? And I wonder if people complaining about the Lion King winning best musical and being kind of a spectacle is leftover anger for the types of decisions like this, where The Will Rogers Follies, which was a huge, overproduced, glorious spectacle of a show gets best musical because it kind of is the biggest, most pretty show, not necessarily the best written. And that is something that I can both look at and appreciate and tell everybody to calm down. But it's interesting nonetheless.

[6:01] Jeff Rizzo: Had you seen the show before you musically directed it?

[6:07] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah, I saw it in New York. The shows I remember seeing, because there's all these trips to New York and they start blending, but I always remember what shows I saw at the same time. And I remember seeing Once on this Island, Miss Saigon, and Will Rogers Follies. And I think maybe I'd already seen Secret Garden. I don't know. I don't remember how the times exactly.

[6:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, first of all, you're like four for four on the best musical nominees for that year. It was Once on this Island, Secret Garden, Miss Saigon, Will Rogers Follies. Will Rogers Follies wins. I don't know. So I saw Will Rogers Follies on Broadway and I had already played some auditions for it in L.A. because, to talk about what you were kind of talking about, they got a little flack because there was nobody of color in the show.

[6:59] Jeff Rizzo: Exactly. So Jeff Calhoun, who I had worked with, came out to L.A. for some auditions. They were looking for some girls for the show and they were specifically looking for people of color, Latino girls or black girls. And they were looking, they wanted, you know, there's just some diversity. So I remember I played at Debbie Reynolds. I remember playing Diamonds for Mrs. Rogers. I remember. And the album hadn't come out yet. You know, the show had just kind of opened, but the album hadn't come out yet. So that was my first experience with it. I remember thinking, oh, I want to see this. This sounds like it's really great. So I did go see it. And I loved it. I had seen Miss Saigon, which I liked. I remember thinking a lot of the tunes sounded like other tunes from other shows.

[8:03] Jeff Rizzo: Sure. It's like, there's a small hotel. I was like, what? Or the heat is on in Saigon. That ain't the way to have fun, son. I was like, this whole score is derivative of other songs. Anyway, that's me, Mr. Tune Detective. Tune Detective over here. We got Shazam.

[8:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. So I'd seen Once on this Island, which was a lovely show. I remember just being knocked out by it. It was like, they did it, you know, very simply. I forget, it was in a small Broadway house. I remember thinking at the time, this probably should have been an off-Broadway musical, and it would probably run for a long time. They had to get rid of all the stuff. They just painted the bricks of the theater, you know, in that beautiful Caribbean colors. And it was a really special, lovely show. And then the opposite. I think then like the next night, I go see Will Rogers Follies.

[8:40] Jeff Rizzo: At the Palace, no less.

[8:41] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: At the Palace. And the way it even starts out, there's that fantastic music. And there's a whole rope thing around the proscenium. And on Broadway, they didn't do this on tour, I don't think. The whole thing lit up, but moved like an airplane. Wow. You saw the lights, you know, tracing, like starting and just going on. So you started out immediately. I went, oh my God. And then the opening number, which is like 14 minutes long or something.

[9:08] Jeff Rizzo: It's so long. It goes on forever.

[9:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It goes on forever. And it's like, I didn't really know that much about Will Rogers. I knew, of course, who he was. There was always that thing in the movie theaters where they would raise the Will Rogers Foundation.

[9:24] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah, you'd go in, kind of like Broadway Cares, Equity Fights.

[9:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, right. They had that. And so I was aware of Will Rogers, but I didn't really know the whole story that he would take things out of the newspaper.

[9:38] Jeff Rizzo: Neither did I. I didn't realize, A, what a sensation he was.

[9:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, he was a big star.

[9:44] Jeff Rizzo: What a talent to be such a huge superstar and still seem like such an ordinary person. It's a really interesting dichotomy to put his name before the Follies. The most extravagant type of entertainment we've had in this country, because he does seem so humble and underplayed and just your next door neighbor, nice guy.

[10:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, he's like an everyman. He's kind of not unlike, say, Regis Philbin was.

[10:13] Jeff Rizzo: Oh, yeah, that's a great comment.

[10:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Regis would do his morning show and he'd just talk about whatever he did the night before. And I just saw a thing recently. It was the Women of the View talking about him. And Whoopi Goldberg said, you know, he was amazing. He could talk about nothing. He could really just get on no script and he could fill up time on the air and be interesting. And I have a feeling Will Rogers had that same kind of down home. I'm just a regular guy. I'm just going to talk about what's in the news.

[10:45] Jeff Rizzo: And so, yeah, also, too, you should know that the show took a long time to get produced. It would have been written many years before it actually finally hit Broadway. And it was called originally Florence Ziegfeld Presents the Will Rogers Follies. It was the original title. And somebody said, we can't call it that. It's too long. We don't have enough lights.

[11:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Or maybe it was Ziegfeld Presents the Will Rogers Follies. It was like, it was this long, weird title. And I remember hearing about it for a long time and then nothing ever happened. And then finally it did happen. And of course, they had, you know, the voice of Flo Ziegfeld.

[11:22] Jeff Rizzo: Move it along, Mr. Rogers.

[11:23] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: To give everybody the idea of what the concept is, in almost like a Forever Plaid sort of way, if you know that show, Will Rogers is coming to this theater in the time in which it's being presented, in this case, 1991, to kind of give a review of his life. So he knows he's dead. We know he's dead. But he is coming to this theater to tell this audience about his life in the form of the Ziegfeld Follies, which he at one point had been a headliner in, I guess, for like six years, like for quite a long time.

[11:58] Jeff Rizzo: So the whole structure of the show is the old school Ziegfeld Follies with little vignettes that teach us about him along the way. From what I've read, a lot of the critics felt like it was disjointed, that it was two shows. There was this kind of retrospective on Will Rogers, and then the Follies portion. I tend to disagree. I think that it's a really interesting contrast between someone who's an unlikely star and something that's, like I said, so extravagant and overproduced.

[12:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: There's nothing more American as far as I'm concerned.

[12:34] Jeff Rizzo: Well, yeah, I think it was a very clever way to tell a story rather than do a linear Funny Girl, which is somebody of the same era, where they just tell a story. It's sort of a flashback in Funny Girl. And this was an innovative way to tell the story that you could only really tell on stage.

[12:54] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I thought it was very theatrical.

[12:56] Jeff Rizzo: Which I think is interesting for someone like Will Rogers, who had such a relationship with his audience whenever he was on stage.

[13:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I thought it was a lovely show. And I know there's a whole big, long story. They originally cast John Denver.

[13:08] Jeff Rizzo: Yes, which I love me some John Denver.

[13:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's kind of our jam in the Utah.

[13:14] Jeff Rizzo: Well, he would have been a great choice. And in some ways, the perfect choice, because he would have been the right personality. He kind of had the same kind of easygoing thing. There was a big something that happened. He heard one of the creative team say something. I don't know if it was actually out of his mouth or passed to him through media or through another third party. But for whatever reason, it was enough for him to step away from the project.

[13:42] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah, which is another reason. I think it got it got waylaid.

[13:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, sure. That makes full sense.

[13:46] Jeff Rizzo: But Keith Carradine and Dee Hody were really fantastic.

[13:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We will talk about Dee Hody in a little bit because...

[13:55] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah, she was so good.

[13:56] Jeff Rizzo: And he was fantastic. He was just really...

[13:58] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And I saw the show three times, twice on Broadway and once the national tour. Plus, then I've seen a couple others and then did a couple... Oh my gosh.

[14:08] Jeff Parsons: Welcome back to A Musical Theatre Podcast! Today, we’re diving into the world of "The Will Rogers Follies" with the incredibly talented Jeff Rizzo.

[14:38] Jeff Rizzo: Thanks for having me, Jeff! I'm excited to talk about this show.

[15:08] Jeff Parsons: It’s an election year, and what better way to celebrate than with a musical that captures the spirit of Americana?

[15:38] Jeff Rizzo: Absolutely! "The Will Rogers Follies" is such a unique piece, blending humor and heart.

[16:08] Jeff Parsons: And it features music by Cy Coleman, who is a legend in the musical theatre world.

[16:38] Jeff Rizzo: Yes, Coleman’s music really brings the characters to life. The score is vibrant and full of energy.

[16:48] Jeff Parsons: Not to mention the choreography by Tommy Tune, who also directed the show.

[16:58] Jeff Rizzo: Right! Tommy Tune’s vision is evident throughout the production, especially in the big dance numbers.

[17:08] Jeff Parsons: And we can't forget about the show-stealing dogs in Act 1!

[17:18] Jeff Rizzo: Those dogs are a highlight! They add such a fun element to the show.

[17:28] Jeff Parsons: It’s interesting how the show blends the story of Will Rogers with the spectacle of a Ziegfeld Follies-style revue.

[17:38] Jeff Rizzo: Exactly! It’s a celebration of Will Rogers’ life and legacy, wrapped in a glamorous package.

[17:48] Jeff Parsons: What do you think makes "The Will Rogers Follies" stand out among other musicals?

[17:58] Jeff Rizzo: I think it’s the combination of humor, nostalgia, and the way it honors American culture.

[18:08] Jeff Parsons: That’s a great point. The show really captures the essence of Will Rogers as a performer and a person.

[18:18] Jeff Rizzo: Yes, and the storytelling is so engaging. You really feel connected to Will and his journey.

[18:28] Jeff Parsons: It’s a shame it’s not getting a revival anytime soon.

[18:38] Jeff Rizzo: I know! It deserves more recognition.

[18:48] Jeff Parsons: For those who may not be familiar, can you give us a brief overview of the plot?

[18:58] Jeff Rizzo: Sure! The show follows Will Rogers, a beloved American humorist and social commentator, as he navigates his career and personal life.

[19:08] Jeff Parsons: And it’s filled with lots of musical numbers that reflect his wit and charm.

[19:18] Jeff Rizzo: Exactly! Each song showcases different aspects of his personality and the times he lived in.

[19:28] Jeff Parsons: What’s your favorite number from the show?

[19:38] Jeff Rizzo: I really love "The Oklahoma Stomp." It’s such a fun, high-energy number that gets everyone involved.

[19:48] Jeff Parsons: That’s a fantastic choice! It really captures the spirit of the show.

[19:58] Jeff Rizzo: And the choreography is just brilliant!

[20:08] Jeff Parsons: Speaking of choreography, how do you think it enhances the storytelling?

[20:18] Jeff Rizzo: The choreography adds a layer of excitement and helps to convey the emotions of the characters.

[20:28] Jeff Parsons: It’s amazing how movement can tell a story just as effectively as words.

[20:38] Jeff Rizzo: Absolutely! In "The Will Rogers Follies," the dance numbers are integral to the overall experience.

[20:48] Jeff Parsons: And the costumes are stunning as well!

[20:58] Jeff Rizzo: Yes! They really reflect the glamour of the era and enhance the visual storytelling.

[21:08] Jeff Parsons: It’s a feast for the eyes, for sure.

[21:18] Jeff Rizzo: And the music is just as captivating. Coleman’s score is so rich and varied.

[21:28] Jeff Parsons: Do you think the show resonates with audiences today?

[21:38] Jeff Rizzo: I believe it does! The themes of humor and resilience are timeless.

[21:48] Jeff Parsons: That’s a great perspective.

[21:58] Jeff Rizzo: Plus, it’s a reminder of the importance of laughter in difficult times.

[22:08] Jeff Parsons: Well said!

[22:18] Jeff Rizzo: Thank you!

[22:28] Jeff Parsons: So, what do you think is the legacy of "The Will Rogers Follies"?

[22:38] Jeff Rizzo: I think it’s a celebration of American culture and the power of entertainment to bring people together.

[22:48] Jeff Parsons: That’s a beautiful way to put it.

[22:58] Jeff Rizzo: Thank you!

[23:08] Jeff Parsons: I hope more people discover this gem of a musical.

[23:18] Jeff Rizzo: Me too! It deserves to be celebrated.

[23:28] Jeff Parsons: Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Jeff.

[23:38] Jeff Rizzo: Thank you for having me!

[23:48] Jeff Parsons: And thank you to our listeners for tuning in!

[23:58] Jeff Rizzo: Don’t forget to check out my virtual choirs online!

[24:08] Jeff Parsons: Yes, definitely!

[24:18] Jeff Rizzo: And follow "A Musical Theatre Podcast" for more great content!

[24:28] Jeff Parsons: Until next time, keep celebrating musical theatre!

[24:38] Jeff Rizzo: Bye!

[24:48] Jeff Parsons: Bye!

[24:58] ♪ Musical number ♪

[25:08] Jeff Parsons: That was fantastic!

[25:18] Jeff Rizzo: I’m glad you enjoyed it!

[25:28] Jeff Parsons: Thank you again for being here.

[25:38] Jeff Rizzo: My pleasure!

[25:48] Jeff Parsons: And thank you to our listeners for joining us today!

[25:58] Jeff Rizzo: See you next time!

[26:08] Jeff Parsons: Bye!

[26:18] Jeff Rizzo: Bye!

[26:28] Jeff Parsons: And remember to support Broadway Cares/Equity Fights AIDS through our TeePublic Store!

[26:38] Jeff Rizzo: Yes, it’s a great cause!

[26:48] Jeff Parsons: Thanks for being part of our community!

[26:58] Jeff Rizzo: We appreciate you!

[27:08] Jeff Parsons: Until next time!

[27:18] Jeff Rizzo: Bye!

[27:28] Jeff Parsons: Bye!

[27:38] Jeff Rizzo: Take care!

[27:48] Jeff Parsons: You too!

[27:58] Jeff Rizzo: Bye!

[28:08] Jeff Parsons: Bye!

[28:47] Jeff Rizzo: South Bay did a production with Johnny Bison played well. R.I.P. Johnny Bison, what a perfect Will Rogers. Yeah, he was terrific. And the girl who did the topless thing was in that production, but they didn't let her do the topless. Not in South Bay. Not in Redondo Beach, California, folks. This number does make me a little uncomfortable, to be honest, because there are no Native Americans on stage. You know, and there's like, you're like paying an homage, but it's all through this filter of the Ziegfeld Follies. So it doesn't feel like it's real. It's just like pretends it. I mean, it does make me very uncomfortable nowadays. Today, I think you're right. Today, we couldn't. Well, what about those costumes where the girls are dressed like cows?

[29:32] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, I have those. Remember the tails? And then they and they're sort of on their knees and they go like our little line of heifers.

[29:37] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah, that's not great. You just not great. Even at the time, I remember thinking, hmm. And then now you would definitely go, we're not doing that. This whole Willamania number, which is led by Ziegfeld's favorite, who is Katie Huffman, who's also probably better known to you as Ula from The Producers. She's this like featured Ziegfeld girl who leads everyone in this number. And then Will descends on this rope. Right. Because Will Rogers, on top of being this humorous and all around nice guy, in many ways, an activist, but he was also amazing at rope tricks. Rope heavily featured in Will Rogers Follies. We meet him. There are several really long monologues in which he introduces who he is and his perspective on things.

His most famous quote is I never met a man I didn't like. Right. Which ultimately becomes the name of one of the numbers. And he just has this really lighthearted way of telling the truth to people that makes them laugh. In many ways, he's an equal opportunity offender, but there's no malice behind it. I think that sometimes like the South Park people within the Book of Mormon world, like they like to think of themselves as an equal opportunity offender. And yet I don't believe that there's no malice behind it. I just think that there's a little bit of giddy enjoyment that you get out of being that critical of people. With Will Rogers, it feels different. He's simultaneously criticizing everyone and offending no one. And I don't know how he does that.

[31:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's true, because he's well, because he's sort of like an everyman. Yeah. But like he's not being politically correct in most of his humor, and yet he's not offending anyone. I don't know if you have to offend someone in order to shock them into change. Like maybe that's kind of the route that we're taking nowadays. But to be reminded of this approach to telling the truth and having integrity and being authentic was very refreshing.

[32:04] Jeff Rizzo: Well, there was a thing where comedians becoming politically incorrect is kind of their charm.

[32:09] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Look, I love me some Sarah Silverman. I love all of... They're great. Truly, truly, truly. And yet I do also believe that these types of figures who are able to do so without the audience questioning whether or not their heart is in the right place is a great example for us to also have in our lives. Will Rogers is kind of like the antithesis of Don Rickles.

[32:25] Jeff Rizzo: Because Don Rickles would... Mr. Nice Guy.

[32:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I saw him a couple times live. And it's interesting, when you see him live and he does a whole thing, you realize at the end, it all comes from this lovely, wonderful, loving place. He's... Because he makes fun of everybody's... He makes fun of you if you're gay, black, Asian, whatever. He will make fun of you. Jewish. And then at the end, he turns it all around. He goes, we're all the same because we're all different. And that's the joy of what makes human beings. And he does a little song thing and you kind of go, wow, I always thought of him as just being kind of just sort of snarky, but it isn't just snarky. Well, Rogers makes his points without ever kind of doing that jabbing finger at you or saying anything.

He's just kind of sweet about the whole thing. For being so kind of aw shucks and scratch his head and chew gum while he's talking, he's also a workaholic because on top of doing the follies, he writes a column in the newspaper every single day. He is doing radio shows. He ultimately moves to California, where he stars in films. This guy goes nonstop. And I guess if there is any contrast in terms of the plot, it's that he's spending too much time away from his family and that he's going to die one day. That's really the only pushback that we have against this character is that he's not spending enough time at home.

[34:00] Jeff Rizzo: Which then gives birth to this other character, who is his wife, Betty Rogers, Betty Blake. He always called her Blake by her maiden name. And very easily could have been a nagging wife saying, why are you away so long? But then you get somebody like Dee Hody in the role, who is so intelligent, such a fantastic actress, never looks like she's pushed vocally a day in her life. She was able to make it interesting.

[34:26] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, exactly. And also they wrote her a couple great songs. I mean, there are some great tunes in this show. She got to sing a couple really, really good songs. Let's talk about him now. What's the Torch one? What's that one called?

[34:37] Jeff Rizzo: No Man Left for Me. Yes, that's a great song.

[34:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, that the one she does on top of a piano. There's also her entrance, which is on the moon.

[34:50] Jeff Rizzo: Well, so as the show is continuing and, you know, once again, Will Rogers has all of these monologues, then we hear the voice of Ziegfeld, who's kind of like God above the theater, telling Will to get the show on, right? Move it along, Mr. Rogers. You may think it's your show, but it's my show. And so there are several times throughout the show where he's trying to tell his story, but his story isn't exciting enough for a Ziegfeld show. And once again, this is where I think the interesting dichotomy of these two things comes into play and maybe could have gone even further. So Ziegfeld makes them live their life a little bit more over the top. They don't meet in a train station. They instead have to meet on the moon.

So Betty Blake's entrance is on this moon, and she is both an actress and as the woman she's playing is beside herself. This is the moment that I fell in love with Dee Hody. She's on the moon, but I'm on the moon just seeing Miss Blake. And she sings this song, and she has this line, and Dee Hody did it. I wish I could do it. And when I've done the show, I've tried to tell the girls. Well, all I tell them is you have to pause before you say, mooning. So the line is, here I sit, mooning, on the moon, mooning. So what Dee did the first time I saw it especially, she said, here I am, mooning, on the moon, mooning. Just the way she did it. The whole subtext just came roaring. I'm really singing this on the moon?

You got everything you needed to know just by her doing that. And it was a huge laugh. It made me just adore her. I was like, I love you. How can I not love you? It was just so stupid. It's like, why is she on the moon?

[36:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, clever. Will Rogers apparently had six sisters, all of whom were single. The six single sisters. And three times fast.

[36:51] Jeff Rizzo: We also meet his father, who as the father of six single sisters, chooses instead to pick on his son. Will can't ever live up to his high expectations. What his dad does pass along to him is a pride in their Cherokee ancestry. He was one-fourth Cherokee and was born in the Cherokee Nation, like specifically among the tribe. And I would have loved to have seen more of that in the show.

[37:22] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I think if they were doing the show today, they probably would play that up more. Because how many musicals do we have that have Native Americans in them?

[37:32] Jeff Rizzo: Well, Peter Pan, but they're not really Native Americans.

[37:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, they're from the Neverland.

[37:39] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah. So yeah. Okay, so let's talk about the dog acts. Because all of a sudden, because it's, you know, the Follies, there's this dog act. And it's incredible. These little puppers are, you know, they're tiny. They're like little runts. And they are doing amazing things, like jumping off of platforms and hiding. And everybody's kind of doing it at the same time. It's really incredible. At one point, they have a dog walking like the tightrope. It's like, I can't even believe it. It's like an America's Got Talent moment.

[38:11] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Now, while I had never seen the Will Rogers Follies, my grandparents had, and I did say that they were kind of the target audience. When the national tour came through Salt Lake City, my grandparents went down and saw it. And the only thing I remember them saying is the dog act. That's the only thing I remember them talking about. These are like salt of the earth farm people who also loved going to the theater. So it makes sense that they would be talking about the live animals. But my grandma would talk about how in the scene after Will Rogers' wife was like talking and then right in the middle of the scene, one of the dogs escaped and came on stage. And everybody lost it because this dog had accidentally come on stage. Now I remembered that. And then when I'm watching it on the video, surprise, surprise, the same thing happened at the exact same moment.

[39:00] Jeff Rizzo: Those are like the planned breakup. I love that. They were totally fooled. Debbie Reynolds was a big believer in that sort of thing. When she did Molly Brown, there was a scene that would happen and they would crack up like on the Carol Burnett show. I don't think those were planned. Those would just happen because either Tim Conway or Harvey Corman cracked up. And those really happen. Of course, the audience loves that because you think I'm the only person seeing that. What I have a feeling, those are to me, those kinds of moments that may have happened in a rehearsal. And Tommy Toon said, I just love that. I think you've got to we've got to do that every night, you know, have that happen. And freaking Dee Hody, she's able to convince everybody that that just happened. And she, as the actor, is having a hard time keeping it together. It's pretty amazing. It's a wonderful thing when somebody can pull that off. You think it's only happening once and people love that.

[40:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I was there the night this happened.

[40:04] Jeff Rizzo: That happens every night. It happens every night, people. I love that. And as artists, I want to give it to them. I want them to believe in magic for just a little bit. You know, if I if we can give that to people for 15 seconds. Oh, my gosh, let's do it. There's nothing like live theater. And it's like, that's why I would be surprised if anybody ever announced they're going to make Will Rogers Follies a film, because there's no way I capture there's no way you could capture what the show it's made for the stage.

[40:27] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's just it's the stage. Absolutely. So after the dog act, then your grandparents love the dog act.

[40:33] Jeff Rizzo: So my grandparents love the dog act. I love the dog act. If you want to see it, it's on YouTube. The end of the first act is them getting married, which is kind of another one of those Ziegfeld requests that like the end of the first act has to have a big number. So they got married earlier. But he said, No, we save that for the act one finale.

[40:56] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Exactly. And Betty Blake is or Betty Rogers is wearing the longest veil you've ever seen.

[41:01] Jeff Rizzo: Ever seen. Because it's covering I counted because I had time to count with all of those really long monologues. The original the original staircase, which fills the entire stage is I believe 14 stairs. Thankfully, those stairs stay there the whole show. The show has a book written by Peter Stone. And in a very conscious way as characters give us exposition. And so sometimes they're telling each other exposition in a really lazy writing way. And one of the characters will say, I already know that. And then they'll say, Yeah, but they don't and point to the audience. Those are the kinds of sneaky tricks that he put in there to try and make this thing feel cohesive. He has a very diverse career as well as a writer.

He wrote the book for 1776, which I believe has the longest scene without any music in musical theater history. He wrote the film charade, which is a great screenplay with Cary Grant and an Audrey Hepburn. He also wrote the books to Titanic, but then also something super presentational, like Will Rogers follies. Anyway, interesting writer, I met Peter Stone, interesting guy, very interesting guy, very smart. And also when you think about 1776, you know, we all know, when you go into the theater, you know how it's going to end, you know, they're gonna all gonna sign that damn thing.

[42:26] Jeff Rizzo: Will Rogers is a good enough writer to put a lot of quips into the script. And why that's funny to me, and I think it speaks to Will Rogers' gift, is that he's kind of revealing maybe his, I don't know, conservative views on evolution. But at the same time, it's not because he believes that men are so perfect that there's no way they could come from apes. He's turning it on its head and saying, there's no way we can come from apes that are better than us. So there's still this sense of humility that then, I think, is attractive to no matter what your outlook might be.

[43:42] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Right. I think he would definitely give an animal the credit for not being devious.

[43:46] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah. Even though, you know, ultimately he says he didn't meet anybody he didn't like. And he truly believed it for everyone that he criticized and for all the truth telling that he told about human nature and how awful we can be. At the end of the day, he still said that he never met a man he didn't like. It's actually what's written on his gravestone.

[44:25] Jeff Rizzo: OK, so I guess we can skip now to what ends up becoming a presidential campaign for Will Rogers. Like I said, he's asked by both Republicans and Democrats to speak on behalf of their party. He says he doesn't believe in an organized political party. That's why he's a Democrat.

[44:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah.

[44:45] Jeff Rizzo: Which is a funny, it's a funny line. He also says something, too, where he says he's asked to speak at both conventions. And he goes, oh, the Democrats, they're more fun because they know they're not going anywhere. Because in those days, you know, back in those days, it was always Republicans that won, I think up until FDR. So then on top of everything else he's doing, he decides to run for president. And I believe he wins the District of Columbia. Funny. That's that's all he gets, which technically doesn't even have any delegates. So there you go.

[45:15] Jeff Rizzo: But in the show, they do this big number called Favorite Son. Now, this was the number that I knew best from the show. I learned the handography from somebody who probably stole it from the original production years ago. Where, I mean, it's all of this like and cross and up and cross and up and cross and up. Pat the shoulder, pat the other shoulder, pat it twice. There's a whole thing. Yeah, it's still totally effective. It's everybody sitting, you know, on one of these steps and doing and doing all of this handography in unison.

[45:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: What I didn't realize until watching it was that in their hats are tambourines.

[45:51] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah, so that they could tap their neighbor's hat and then it would make a little a little sting. It's really, really inventive. And I think it's probably the biggest showstopper in the whole thing.

[46:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I would imagine.

[46:03] Jeff Rizzo: It's a big thing. Also, everybody's in red, white and blue.

[46:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I mean, it's great. It's like it's a George M. Cohan thing. We're red, white and blue, American patriotism, even though it's about Democrats and Republicans. I don't think you really hear the lyric. The lyric is really smart. The elephant's trunk and Democrats donkey will be down the drain and sunk. The day the people's victory is won. So they're 100 percent criticizing the way we do things. And like the audience is going crazy. It's like, yeah, he's the third party. He's like a third party candidate that you're getting an entire theater to get behind. It's what I was talking about where you're giving the audience what they want. And then maybe also something they didn't know was there.

[46:48] Jeff Rizzo: Now, because Will Rogers has won for president, once again, he's out of the house all the time. Betty, his wife, is upset about it. He makes it up to her by giving gifts. Right. And there's this song called Presence for Mrs. Rogers. It's probably my favorite of these beautiful girls type numbers, because each each woman that appears is in a costume that is a symbol for the jewel that he's buying for his wife. Like this piece of jewelry. There's the sapphire, there's diamond, there's ruby, there's emerald. And we get all the colors. It's like and you get all of the colors.

[47:25] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's very dames and 42nd Street. Exactly. When I saw it, I thought Tommy Tune, you're no fool. I mean, I don't know who conceived that seems like a Tommy Tune conception to me. But yeah, that he then asked them to write. Very clever and beautiful to look at. And gorgeous. But then what makes it my favorite is then that number doesn't even have a button. It gets shut down by the Great Depression. So you go from the extravagance of these costumes and jewels and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And then you have people coming on stage and literally taking off the headpieces from these girls and taking the jewels from them and taking the jewels off. And then they have to put on these like rags as the stage manager comes out and explains to Ziegfeld up in the rafters that the Great Depression has caused all of his extravagance to be shut down.

[48:20] Jeff Rizzo: And then the show really turns a different corner because once you take away all of that, what's left? And what we have left is this kind of belief system that Will Rogers has been spouting the entire show. So much to the point that President Hoover, after he had addressed the nation, invited Will Rogers to talk to the American public. And I don't know if it's word for word, but he gives this great speech about income inequality, about how the working class certainly isn't responsible for the Great Depression. How every dollar that a millionaire has has come from the people who don't have that kind of money. It's actually impressive and translates really well to today.

[49:12] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I think that would be a part of the show that would play easily.

[49:15] Jeff Rizzo: For sure. The last 15 minutes of the show would, like I said, were enough to pull me back in. And then after we've seen showbiz number after showbiz number after showbiz number, the big finale of this entire musical is a very easy, beautiful country ballad, which is called Never Met a Man I Didn't Like. And that's how the show ends, is with this very simple song and with pictures, projections of people from all over the world. And there's a wonderful effect with, it looks like smoke, it looks like a tunnel. As though he's ascending. Dying, and then you see the last post. When I did the show, when I played the show for Theater League, John Davidson played Will Rogers. Terrific. And I remember in rehearsal when we got to that part of the show and he's talking about, this makes me choked up too, when he talks about Eddie Rogers, he starts to cry in real life.

And he just kind of loses it. He said, I just realized how much I love my wife. And it was a real moment. It was just it was really real. And I thought, oh, my God, dude, if you can bring that every night, if you can make us feel what you're feeling. And I had a whole new respect for John Davidson because he's kind of thought of as slick. But he was a very talented, very humble, actually. Very Will Rogers-like, kind of got prettier than Will Rogers. Great hair, though.

[50:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That hair, that John Davidson hair, man.

[50:45] Jeff Rizzo: I thought he was terrific in the part and really sweet. He had a genuineness that was really great. To wrap all of this up, one of the great quotes that is brought up in the show is actually said by his wife, by Betty. She says, A living is made by what you get. A life is made by what you give. Hallmark card, perhaps. Doesn't make it any less true.

[51:10] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's true.

[51:11] Jeff Rizzo: And so I do think that the show has its heart in the right place, which is really interesting considering all the money and facade that it's filled with as well. It's an interesting show that I don't think will ever receive a revival and certainly would never be produced in the same way it was. There would have to be the right person who came along. I almost wonder if a way to do it would be to split the role up among various ethnicities and races to make Will Rogers almost, not just an everyman, but a representation of the American quilt.

[51:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You may have seen this. I think it's on YouTube. It was an Actors Fund thing of Funny Girl. Every scene, Fanny's a different person. They had all kinds of people. Lily's White is one of them. And I saw some of it. I didn't watch the whole thing, but it was fascinating. It was a great way to do it for a concert. As a concert, it was fantastic. It was a great way to go. I have a feeling Will Rogers Follies is probably not the kind of show that's going to get revived.

[52:17] Jeff Rizzo: The other thing we didn't say was the orchestrations on the Cy Coleman shows are so good. Billy Byers, who did Will Rogers, he did City of Angels. Oh my God, those charts. You're so right. One of the things about conducting it, or even playing in the band too, but conducting is so exciting because the charts are so good.

[52:38] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Why do you think that is? Speaking from your knowledge, is it a relationship between a composer and orchestrator?

[52:46] Jeff Rizzo: I think it's just a good orchestrator who brings something to the table. I think Cy did his own vocal arrangements, which isn't normal. But I think he did all the four-part harmony that the four guys sing. I think he did all those things. Gorgeous. I think he was pretty hands-on and may have had a lot of input there. Or he just trusted Billy Byers, who was a really excellent orchestrator, who didn't do that many shows as much as he did other things. But I think in this case, they are good tunes. Well-orchestrated, well-arranged. I love that.

[53:19] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I love that you brought that up. Thank you.

[53:21] Jeff Rizzo: Thank you so much for doing this. I've had such a great time talking to you.

[53:24] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Well, you're so much fun because you're so into it. I don't know that many people that get so excited about this.

[53:32] Jeff Rizzo: And also, nowadays, it seems so trivial. But that's what makes life fun. But also, as trivial as it may be, we're talking about a musical. We've also, in the meantime, talked about history. We've talked about figures who come before us. We've talked about diversity and what matters as humans and what brings us together, what pushes us apart. I think you've said it before. I think in many of your other podcasts, you've said you learned a lot about history from musicals. I know I did. 100%. I mean, even a show like Annie. There's things you learn about history in that show. And so, there's a lot. And when a musical is well-written and has information, there's a lot to learn. Even a fluffy show, because it's a fluffy show like Will Rogers, it does have, as you say, reality. And it deals with some real things that aren't just fluff. And I think maybe that's kind of the joy of the show, is that you're entertained and that you do walk away with something.

[54:34] Jeff Rizzo: Well, that's why I feel like these conversations are so important. Because we're actively making time to talk about these things that maybe wouldn't be expressed otherwise. So, thank you for making time for us today.

[54:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, no, this was so much fun. I love that you do this. Thank you.

[54:49] Jeff Rizzo: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, you can always email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com. Don't forget to follow us on Instagram and Twitter, at amusicalpodcast. And while you're at it, check out our TeePublic store for musical theater podcasts, where we have designs you can put on anything from shirts to face masks that pay homage to some of our favorite episodes, past and present.

[55:16] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Jeff Rizzo, how do we follow you and everything you're up to? Do you have anything you want to plug?

[55:20] Jeff Rizzo: Just some virtual videos that my partner and I are doing. We did one of All By Myself. It came out June 16th. I think we're almost up to 4,000 views on YouTube.

[55:31] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: That's awesome. These are your virtual choirs, right?

[55:34] Jeff Rizzo: Virtual choirs, which take a long time to edit. We're in the process of editing Into the Fire from Scarlett Pimpernel, and Doug Sills is singing on it, which is cool.

[55:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Awesome.

[55:45] Jeff Rizzo: And then we're doing The Story Goes On from Baby.

[55:49] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yes!

[55:50] Jeff Rizzo: Yeah, so look for those on Facebook. But for now, look for All By Myself, put in virtual, and it should come up. There's a few well-known people. So anyway, that's all I can really plug, because otherwise, not doing it. Who knows?

[56:04] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Well, thank you so much again for doing this.

[56:06] Jeff Rizzo: Thank you, Jeff. We will check out those videos. And to all of the listeners, we love you and make a living, but more importantly, make a life.

[56:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Bye!