This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:01] Caden Zane Marshall: I guess if you had to pitch this musical to someone in like a sentence or two, what would you say?

[0:08] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: God, what a good question. Well, I think I would probably be like, so the very first women in the country, maybe the world, who had their names at the top of their business hated each other.

[0:30] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Welcome, everybody, to A Musical Theatre Podcast where we discuss the cultural and emotional impact of some of our favorite musicals in theatre history. My name is Jeffrey Scott Parsons, and you can call me Jeff. Today, we are discussing the musical WAR PAINT, a listener request that was made possible by someone. I don't know who it was, which means WAR PAINT was requested on social media. I put it on the list, and then when I searched my emails, I couldn't really find anything. Still, I'm thrilled to be covering it, so thank you to whoever requested it, because there's some really great stuff in here, and I have a really great guest to chat with me about it.

[1:15] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Caden Zane Marshall is an actor, ASL interpreter, and theater influencer who has amassed over 100,000 followers on TikTok. He's never met a spreadsheet he didn't like, and I can't wait to get into all the powders, lotions, and potions with him. Everyone, please welcome the wonderful Caden Zane Marshall! Yay!

[1:37] Caden Zane Marshall: Thank you, Jeff! I'm so excited to be here and be on a podcast that's introduced by Cynthia Erivo and Ariana Grande.

[1:44] Caden Zane Marshall: Do you know what? I have nothing to do with it, and I'm thrilled. It makes everybody feel so elevated.

[1:52] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Absolutely, absolutely. I hope that Patti is introducing this one. She'll be furious about the things that I'm going to say during this musical.

[2:01] Caden Zane Marshall: It's Patti sometimes?

[2:03] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sometimes it's Patti. Hello, this is Patti LuPone. Hi, I'm Kristen Chenoweth. It goes through all the different ones.

[2:09] Caden Zane Marshall: But I love that right now we're at a Cynthia-Ariana moment. That's great.

[2:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, it's great. I was like, wow. Not only having them, but also listening to your podcast as I have been, I'm always like, wow, these people are such amazing people within this industry.

[2:28] Caden Zane Marshall: I just listened to Howard Sherman from the 1776 interview. I was like, you have Howard Sherman on your podcast and you want me? You want me to be on this podcast? I'm so honored!

[2:44] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh, come on. Come on. You have an approach to musical theater that I think is unique and singular. And as soon as I saw the content you were making, I was like, gosh, dang it. I wish I had thought of that. You know, it's such a really fun vantage point into the art form.

[3:01] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Can you talk a little bit about how you got doing this? I mean, I am the type of person who has memorized all of the Tony winners since 1949 when Guys and Dolls, you know, first won Best Musical. But you're on a whole other level, it feels.

[3:18] Caden Zane Marshall: Well, we're on totally different planes because I am terrible with names and faces. So I couldn't throw out the names of all the celebrities who've won all the different Tony Awards. But really, Warpaint is a part of my origin story for doing what I do.

[3:37] Caden Zane Marshall: Yes. So the Warpaint season, the 2017 season, the 71st Tony Awards, that was my first Tony season. I knew about the Tonys and I'd been doing theater since I was eight. But I didn't get into Broadway. I was just enjoying being in community theater and whatnot.

[3:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: First community theater production?

[4:01] Caden Zane Marshall: Jungle Book. I played a wolf cub. I said, Mommy, I'm scared. And that's all I said.

[4:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Adorable.

[4:09] Caden Zane Marshall: So I don't totally know how I landed on like, oh, I'll just start listening to albums. But somewhere along the lines, I was like, oh, there's like cool new stuff that's coming out. And the only way I have access to it is through albums.

[4:27] Caden Zane Marshall: I'm considering going into this industry as a profession. And I think the only way that I can sort of get the education that I want, because I really should know what's happening now and what's been happening throughout history is just by listening to stuff because I don't live in New York and I don't have access to classes that I think are going to help me catch up. I don't know where to get that other than just by doing it myself. So I started listening to Amelie and Come From Away and In Transit, Great Comet, War Paint and watching the interviews on YouTube. I got so obsessed. I got so excited.

[5:08] Caden Zane Marshall: So I was like, wow, albums are like the most accessible form of live musical theater that we have. And I think that they're a little bit under resourced. They don't have captions. People often don't put out like synopses of the musical when they release their albums. And, you know, some albums are great. Like you totally know what's happening in Come From Away, but you don't know what's happening in Great Comet just by listening to it. So things like that.

[5:36] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Sometimes you don't know what's happening in Great Comet when you're in the theater watching it. But also, like, that's why I love it.

[5:43] Caden Zane Marshall: Not the best example on my part. You're so right.

[5:46] Caden Zane Marshall: But I hear what you're saying. Albums are produced differently, right? Depending on what state the musical is in, whether or not it's a concept album, like an Andrew Lloyd Webber thing back in the day where they were really just trying to get the song on the radio. Like, who cares really if you can follow a narrative throughout the entire album? And then, of course, you have like my, oh boy, do I love A Road Trip double CD cast album from back in the day that you could just put on and two hours later, you know, you're to your location and you've gone through the entire show of Rent. So these are, I completely agree with you.

[6:28] Caden Zane Marshall: Yeah. So to your question, which I sort of strayed away from through discovering albums, I started finding out about the more obscure things, the things that people call obscure, but actually aren't obscure, like Heathers and then going deeper and finding concept albums and original cast recordings from like little theaters out in, I don't know, Utah and being like, oh, these are artists who are like desperately vying for our attention. Trying to figure out how they can get their art seen by more people. And that's how things like Heathers became popular is through things like Bootlegs and the cast recording and people going, oh, wow, this has more merit than it ended up getting just in the original production.

Fast forward years later, it's the pandemic. I don't really know what to do with my time. And I'm like, I think I'm going to start posting about these shows because I found one of the musicals I found was In the Green and I was obsessed with it. And I tried telling people about it and they weren't really paying attention, which was exactly what happened when I found the original cast recording of Hadestown. I was like, y'all, this is amazing. Somebody has to listen. And people are like, okay, Caden, you're such a nerd. And nobody listened to it. And then I was right. And then it went to Broadway.

[7:47] Caden Zane Marshall: And I got to say, boom, In Your Faces. I've been knowing about this since it dropped. So I was like, I really want to have a platform where I can throw out an album and get an audience and the artists who are trying to vie for our attention actually get what they're looking for and that they rightfully deserve. So that's what I hope to do with my platform. Most of the time, I just get a few thousand people to look at an album, but sometimes the videos do really well.

[8:17] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: You really have become a patron saint of indie musical theater writers, because even when we were going back and forth to figure out what musical to talk about, you sent over a list of some of your favorite shows. And I knew one. I knew one of the five musicals. Amelie, I think, was the only one that I had actually seen. But there were some others I was like, dude, I have no idea what this is.

[8:42] Caden Zane Marshall: And it's like in your top five, which speaking of, you have an amazing website with so much great information about not only you and your work, but some fun trivia things, including like a list of your favorite musicals in every year.

[8:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: So I was going through and there are two years that you just have a question mark that it's like, maybe I don't have one. And I was like, oh, come on, Caden, 1952 and 1958, there's got to be something in there.

[9:11] Caden Zane Marshall: So I get out last night, I got out my big musical theater encyclopedia to see what had opened, not in the season, because what you're doing is like the actual year in the year from January to December, what musical opened that could be considered one of your favorites. 1958, 1952. The truth is, you're kind of right. There's not a lot, not a lot. However, okay, so 1958, I have a soft place for Flower Drum Song. That would probably be my choice. But if I wanted to be like super niche, I would pick Goldilocks, the flop musical starring Elaine Stritch. Do you know Goldilocks?

[9:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I don't. And I'll be honest, I don't know Flower Drum Song either. And that is going to sound crazy.

[10:01] Caden Zane Marshall: It's okay, Caden, go to go to your Spotify, go to A Musical Theatre Podcast and listen to the Flower Drum Song episode. Because it's honestly, and the only reason I say that is because it's one of my faves. What it has been over the years is actually a really cool story. So highly recommend Flower Drum Song.

[10:28] Caden Zane Marshall: We go to 1952. All I could come up with was An Evening with Beatrice Lilly. If anyone knows who that is, it's the original Mrs. Mears from like the film version of Thoroughly Modern Millie. That's the only thing really in 1952 of An Evening with Beatrice Lilly. Anyway, so for 1952, keep that question mark on there because there really isn't much.

[10:46] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah, I think I remember going through it and being like, I don't I don't know any of these. And I think I will probably have a soft spot for Flower Drum Song too. But I got to a point where I was running out of great Broadway musicals. And I am just constantly digesting new and obscure little musicals that sometimes are really struggling. And I was like, I need to start saving these. I need to start sprinkling in Broadway musicals so that I don't like lose my mind.

[11:16] Caden Zane Marshall: So like, I haven't listened to Taboo, but it's gonna come up soon.

[11:33] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: I know it's not it's not bad. Flower Drum Song is another one. So and Passion. I haven't listened to Passion yet.

[11:33] Caden Zane Marshall: So I just got chills just you got to be in your feels when you listen to Passion.

[12:03] Caden Zane Marshall: Okay, I often am so I'm ready. It's like the gayest idea for a musical ever. It's two makeup mogul dames who duped it out for decades in the most like, fabulous settings and gowns and beautiful hats like surrounded by glowing bottles of perfume and it's like catty and dramatic and the women feel like, timeless and gargantuan. I was like, this is gonna be so good. I'm so freaking excited. And then I then then the album dropped. And I'll be honest, I was pretty disappointed. I was like, okay, this is a different pace than I expected. It's a lot different.

[12:37] Caden Zane Marshall: I think what’s really interesting about "War Paint" is that it dives deep into the lives of these two iconic women, Helena Rubinstein and Elizabeth Arden, who were both titans in the beauty industry. Their rivalry is fascinating because it’s not just about business; it’s about their personal lives, their struggles, and how they navigated a male-dominated world.

[13:07] Caden Zane Marshall: The musical does a great job of showcasing their individual journeys and how they influenced each other, even if they were often at odds. It’s a story of empowerment, but it also highlights the sacrifices they made along the way.

[13:37] Caden Zane Marshall: I love how the show uses makeup as a metaphor for transformation and identity. It’s not just about the physical appearance; it’s about how these women used their products to empower themselves and others.

[13:57] Caden Zane Marshall: The score is also a standout element. The music really captures the essence of the time period and the characters. It’s lush and vibrant, much like the world of beauty they inhabited.

[14:17] Caden Zane Marshall: One of my favorite moments in the show is when they both reflect on their childhoods and how those experiences shaped them into the women they became. It’s a powerful reminder of how our past influences our present.

[14:37] Caden Zane Marshall: And then there’s the business aspect, which is so interesting. You see how they strategized and marketed their products, which is still relevant today. It’s a fascinating look at capitalism and competition.

[14:57] Caden Zane Marshall: I think it’s important to acknowledge that while they were competitors, they also paved the way for future generations of women in business. Their legacies are still felt today in the beauty industry.

[15:17] Caden Zane Marshall: The dynamic between the two characters is so compelling. They’re both strong, independent women, but they also have vulnerabilities that make them relatable.

[15:42] Caden Zane Marshall: I also appreciate how the musical doesn’t shy away from the darker aspects of their lives. It shows that success often comes with a price, and it’s not always glamorous.

[15:52] Caden Zane Marshall: The staging and choreography in "War Paint" are also noteworthy. They create a visually stunning experience that enhances the storytelling.

[16:12] Caden Zane Marshall: I think audiences can really connect with the themes of ambition and rivalry. It’s a universal story that resonates with anyone who has ever pursued their dreams.

[16:32] Caden Zane Marshall: And let’s not forget about the humor in the show. There are some really funny moments that balance out the more serious themes, which I think is essential in a musical.

[16:52] Caden Zane Marshall: The relationship between the two women is complex, and I think that’s what makes it so engaging. They’re not just adversaries; they’re also mirrors of each other’s strengths and weaknesses.

[17:12] Caden Zane Marshall: I also love the way the musical incorporates historical context. It’s not just a story about beauty; it’s set against the backdrop of significant events that shaped the world.

[17:32] Caden Zane Marshall: The music really helps to convey the emotions of the characters. There are moments that are incredibly poignant and others that are just pure joy.

[17:52] Caden Zane Marshall: I think the show ultimately celebrates the spirit of women who dare to dream big and challenge the status quo.

[18:12] Caden Zane Marshall: It’s a reminder that while the beauty industry can be cutthroat, it’s also a space where women can find empowerment and community.

[18:22] Caden Zane Marshall: I also appreciate how the musical addresses the idea of legacy. Both women left a mark on the world, and their stories continue to inspire.

[18:32] Caden Zane Marshall: The way the show intertwines their narratives is masterful. It keeps the audience engaged and invested in their journeys.

[18:52] Caden Zane Marshall: I think it’s a beautiful tribute to their lives and the impact they had on the beauty industry and beyond.

[19:12] Caden Zane Marshall: Overall, "War Paint" is a celebration of resilience, ambition, and the power of women. It’s a story that deserves to be told and remembered.

[19:32] Caden Zane Marshall: And I think it’s important for audiences to see these kinds of stories represented on stage. It’s not just entertainment; it’s a reflection of our society.

[19:42] Caden Zane Marshall: The musical also encourages conversations about beauty standards and the pressures women face, which is incredibly relevant today.

[19:52] Caden Zane Marshall: I think that’s what makes "War Paint" so special. It’s not just a story about two women; it’s a commentary on the world we live in.

[20:12] Caden Zane Marshall: And I hope that audiences walk away feeling inspired and empowered after seeing it.

[20:32] Caden Zane Marshall: It’s a reminder that we all have the power to create our own narratives and define our own beauty.

[20:52] Caden Zane Marshall: I think that’s a message that resonates with everyone, regardless of their background or experiences.

[21:02] Caden Zane Marshall: And ultimately, that’s what makes musical theatre such a powerful art form. It has the ability to connect us and spark important conversations.

[21:12] Caden Zane Marshall: I really enjoyed discussing "War Paint" and exploring its themes. It’s a rich and layered musical that offers so much to unpack.

[21:22] Caden Zane Marshall: I think it’s a must-see for anyone who loves theatre and wants to understand the complexities of women’s experiences in the world.

[21:32] Caden Zane Marshall: Thank you for having me on to talk about this incredible show. I hope more people get to experience it.

[21:52] Caden Zane Marshall: It’s a celebration of artistry, resilience, and the power of women to shape their destinies.

[22:12] Caden Zane Marshall: I think that’s a message we can all get behind, and I’m excited to see how "War Paint" continues to resonate with audiences.

[22:32] Caden Zane Marshall: It’s a beautiful reminder of the impact we can have when we embrace our true selves and pursue our passions.

[22:52] Caden Zane Marshall: I hope listeners feel inspired to explore their own stories and find their own voices in the world.

[23:12] Caden Zane Marshall: Thank you again for this opportunity to share my thoughts on "War Paint." It’s been a pleasure.

[23:32] Caden Zane Marshall: I can’t wait to see what the future holds for this musical and the conversations it will continue to spark.

[23:52] Caden Zane Marshall: And I hope everyone takes the time to appreciate the artistry and hard work that goes into creating such a meaningful piece of theatre.

[24:12] Caden Zane Marshall: It’s truly a labor of love, and I think that passion shines through in every aspect of the production.

[24:32] Caden Zane Marshall: Spoiler alert until the end when they added a scene that’s kind of a fantasy sequence, but you have these two lead characters who never talk to each other, so it’s two different musicals in a way. It’s a lot of monologuing with these two women because they can’t ever really talk to each other. What do you think about maybe including...

[25:15] Caden Zane Marshall: Some of their early years in the story, or do you like starting out where it does?

[25:20] Jeff Parsons: I think I would have preferred that. And I didn't think about that until I read somebody's review. I don't remember if it was Variety or HuffPost, but it was like starting after the rivalry began makes it feel more aimless as a narrative. And I also think that because they focused so like, yes, of course, they should focus on Rubenstein and Arden and their relationship with each other, but because they didn't bring in more of a sense of what's happening around them, what's happening in the world and which celebrities are being impacted by their makeup products. The thing that makes me realize that they are titans is them saying it themselves, and Patti LuPone and Christine Ebersole being the leads.

That's what makes me go, oh, these women are titans of their industry. But I think if I had seen that Marilyn Monroe almost definitely wore their makeup, if I had seen moments in history besides the war, I think that would have really helped. But also that's a gargantuan task. I would not want to be in charge of writing the 50 years instead of 30 years of their relationship. Right? Because that's the other crazy thing is we've seen Beautiful, we've seen Jersey Boys, you know, whatever. Then to do it about two different women who never meet, that is a very challenging evening of theater. So I would like to now pitch my version of Warpaint, if you'd like to listen.

[27:01] Caden Zane Marshall: Oh my God, please.

[27:02] Jeff Parsons: Okay, because the musical is already singular. So let's just make it even crazier. I pitch a musical with three acts.

[27:11] Caden Zane Marshall: Hell yeah.

[27:12] Jeff Parsons: The acts are a little shorter. First act, Elizabeth Arden. Why? Because her story has smaller stakes. She came from okay money. She's from Canada. She's just next door, right? Then act two, we go to Helena Rubinstein. Her story is a little bit more intense. She's coming from Poland. She goes to Australia. She's working with Lanolin, right? Then act three, boom, is the war.

[27:43] Caden Zane Marshall: I love that. That's so good.

[27:47] Jeff Parsons: Because then you have all of the context, which I feel like fuels this story even more. These women love to work. And I honestly feel like they chose not to meet for a reason, because on some level, the other one brought out the best and worst in themselves. Anyway, that's my pitch.

[28:10] Caden Zane Marshall: Damn, that's good. I would love to see that.

[28:13] Jeff Parsons: I don't think I just fixed Warpaint in any way, shape, or form, but I would like to see my version.

[28:19] Caden Zane Marshall: I'd like to see that. I think sometimes people would be like, wow, that was a little slow. That was three acts, and I was in there for a long time. So what? You've seen operas. Speaking of opera, let's talk about some of these creators of the musical, because they've created some really interesting theater, including opera, by the way. Composer Scott Frankel, probably best known for Grey Gardens. He was nominated for a Tony Award for it, but he has written other things as well. Far From Heaven. Do you know Far From Heaven?

[28:53] Jeff Parsons: I don't know it well. I know about it. I know it's about Kelly O'Hara's life falling apart.

[29:01] Caden Zane Marshall: I love that Warpaint's about Christine Ebersole and Patti LuPone fighting, and Far From Heaven is about Kelly O'Hara's life falling apart. That's kind of fantastic. Far From Heaven is based on a movie, which is actually a really beautiful film. A 1950s housewife finds out that her husband's gay. It's a lovely piece, and the musical, like Warpaint, like Grey Gardens, is very watercolor. If I were to describe Scott Frankel's writing style, I would say watercolor, and it's because there's still a lot of variety. There's still a lot of gorgeous colors and textures, but it also just has an ease of... It's a legato-ness. I don't want to say it's low energy, but it's not as pigmented maybe as an oil painting or, you know, something like that. It's soft.

[29:55] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, that's so hard to describe, but you're so right. I really like that word for them.

[30:00] Caden Zane Marshall: Thank you. He has two collaborators that he met very early on in his life. While he was at Yale studying, he met Doug Wright, who was the book writer for Warpaint. Early on in his career, after he got done basically being a musical director, conductor, pianist in lots of Broadway shows, he starts collaborating with a lyricist, also a book writer, by the name of Michael Corey. Now, Michael Corey has a really interesting career in addition to all of his collaborations with Mr. Frankel and Doug Wright. He's actually spent a lot of time in the opera, and that makes a lot of sense to me, especially when you look at Warpaint, because it is about big emotions, but not a lot's happening.

[31:44] Jeff Parsons: Yes. I also want to point out a show that they wrote together called Happiness.

[30:49] Caden Zane Marshall: Oh my gosh.

[30:51] Jeff Parsons: I haven't seen or heard. I've only read about it, but it seems so interesting. I saved a little blurb about it.

[30:58] Caden Zane Marshall: Susan Stroman directed, choreographed. John Weidman, I think, did the book. Ken Page, rest in peace, had one of the most touching moments in the show.

[31:08] Jeff Parsons: You've seen it?

[31:10] Caden Zane Marshall: Not on Broadway.

[31:11] Jeff Parsons: Okay. But Happiness wasn't on Broadway, was it?

[31:14] Caden Zane Marshall: It was at Lincoln Center.

[31:16] Jeff Parsons: Okay. Okay. Well, it tells the stories of a dozen New Yorkers stuck in a morning rush hour on a stalled subway car, where they're required by a spectral train man to recall and reenact the happiest moment in their lives before they can continue their travels. Happiness celebrates those fleeting moments in everyday lives, typically unanticipated, largely overlooked, always ephemeral, and upon reflection become people's fondest memories.

[31:44] Caden Zane Marshall: And it's like, if I understand it right, those passengers actually died, and they have to relive a fond memory before they can go into their afterlife.

[31:53] Jeff Parsons: Before they pass over. Yeah.

[31:56] Caden Zane Marshall: Talk about the heart being in the right spot. I feel like the intention of this show is so pure, and I would love to see it done more in a smaller stakes type situation.

[32:08] Jeff Parsons: Well, it's an intimate concept. I would really want an intimate space to put that on. And granted, it may have been at the Mitzi Newhouse. It may have been at the smaller space at Lincoln Center, but still. I'm so glad you brought up Happiness.

[32:23] Caden Zane Marshall: Makes me very happy myself. Okay, let's go through Warpaint just with the time we have left. Sound good?

[32:29] Jeff Parsons: Okay. So show begins. And once again, we're always bouncing back and forth between these two ladies. So we first start with Elizabeth Arden. How would you describe Miss Arden?

[32:40] Caden Zane Marshall: Pink. That's the first word that comes to mind. I'm not sure why.

[32:42] Jeff Parsons: That is the word.

[32:44] Caden Zane Marshall: Pink.

[32:46] Jeff Parsons: They're such opposites in their aesthetics, in their just approaches to life. Yeah. Elizabeth Arden feels to me like the mold. She's the image that I would conjure up if I'm thinking of like a 1930s, 40s, 50s makeup mogul woman. She's like got her suit and her blonde hair. She's very, very particular. I remember seeing an interview about how whenever she would like go into work, she would inspect every single worker's faces and hair and makeup. And if you didn't look proper to her, then she would send you away. And throughout the show, you see her focus so much on the branding and the packaging.

[33:33] Caden Zane Marshall: That really is her strength.

[33:35] Jeff Parsons: Yes. The way that she marketed makeup had such a much longer lasting impact than Rubinstein's did because she understood the package is a part of the experience. The branding is a part of what makes you want to come back to the makeup. I don't know. Something about her is just like, it's so white woman. She's such a white woman head of a company. Fantasy boots. And to be clear, here I am spouting off how great capitalism and everything is. I would not want to work for either of these women. No. Okay. No. They would seem like terrible bosses.

[34:16] Caden Zane Marshall: Yeah. I wouldn't work for them. I'll go to lunch and just sit there quietly, but probably wouldn't want to be an employee. To your point about creating this whole experience, when she opens her famous brick and mortar, and it's the opening number, and the title of the opening number, really, or at least her opening number is that she had this big red door behind the big red door, even from the outside of her shop. Iconical Elizabeth Arden. You knew which one it was because it was the one with this big red door. And then you'd walk inside and it felt spa-like, and it had all of the scents. And once again, the lotions and potions. So she understood branding at a time where we did probably didn't even use that word.

[35:01] Caden Zane Marshall: Yeah, for real. We then go to Helena Rubinstein, who, like you said, is the complete opposite. There is a documentary that this whole musical is based on, which was also based on the book, but the doc is called The Powder and the Glory, which is just such a fantastic title. And it really goes into the full stories of these women. And it's a wonderful doc, PBS style. They have a lot of interviews with Kitty Carlisle Hart, who is just the queen of New York for many, many years, high society. And she lived through so much history. So she knew both of them. And she talked about how she would see Elizabeth Arden at the races and that she always looked fabulous. And then she literally calls Helena Rubinstein an icebox.

That's how she was shaped because she was 4'10". And she's just kind of like this little rectangle of a person. And so this woman, who maybe wasn't gifted the package of genes that I think everybody aspired to in early America and in some instances maybe still do, but she had in her a thirst for actually creating products, not just marketing product, but working with scientists to figure out what is the best way to create product for women. And that came from her mom, growing up with her mom in Poland. I guess mom would always be making her face creams in the kitchen and had this little secret of how to get the skin to absorb moisture better. And so she just ran with that. By the time she landed in America, she had a product that honestly was maybe even better than Arden's, but Arden knew how to package it.

[36:56] Jeff Parsons: Right. At least from what we get to see in the musical, Rubinstein's aesthetic is much more clinical. It's that clinical blue opposite the pink. There's a lot more, like even just in the set design and her costume design, there's a lot more straight lines. Like if Christine is Boba, then Patti LuPone is Kiki, if you know that little social experiment thing. And maybe it is partially due to Patti LuPone's performance, which is very sharp. And I don't want to say aggressive because it's not, but she's a much more domineering personality. And Christine Ebersole as Arden is so much more delicate, is so much more society. And Rubinstein is like, well, I'm just going to say it the way it is.

[37:52] Caden Zane Marshall: They do touch on this in the musical, but later in her life, she wants to get a new apartment, and she is actually denied the apartment because of her Jewish culture and religion. And so what does she do? She bought the entire building. Right? Like, that's who she was, you know? And even though she didn't maybe understand the nuance of the marketing, she also had this really deep love for interesting and bold artists. She was close friends with Salvador Dali, and he did murals all over her apartment and did a portrait of her. She would go to Latin America all the time because she took her business international and met with Frida Kahlo and had a painting of hers. Like, she was a collector of African art and would tour her art around the country. She was a really interesting, forward-thinking person in a way that maybe Elizabeth Arden wasn't because she would be afraid that that would be out of step with society. Rubinstein was more a woman of the future.

[39:23] Jeff Parsons: Sure. Exactly. And to the point where Helena Rubinstein didn't change her last name. She could have absolutely done a total name shift in order to distance herself from her Jewish ancestry like so many people, especially in the musical theater, did. She wasn't interested. She was Rubinstein until the end. And so it's interesting that she also surrounded herself with artistic misfits that she really admired. What a cool person. And what a Patti. What a Patti character. What a Patti character. And for any of my initial criticism where I was like, uh-oh, I'm not going to be able to understand Patti. She has an accent. She's kind of right on. That's interesting. Once again, this is why I'm like, well, of course the gays love the idea of this musical.

These like girl boss, absolutely phenomenal at what they did. So true to who they were and what they believed in kind of characters. And I saw, I think Doug Wright, who in an interview was talking about how there are so few musicals that star two women. Like most of the time it's like one woman and a man or just one woman and like her supporting people, but the relationships between two women and theater is so made up of gay men. So often I'm like, why are we not pandering to this audience a little bit more? I feel like there's a jackpot right in there. Even though War Paint and Grey Gardens didn't have like the lasting power that you would necessarily expect them to. I mean, Wicked did. And I don't know, there's so much there that we need to explore. And I think that will come more as we have more women writers in the room. Because another thing that I think would have made this show a lot better is if they had women on the writing team.

[41:11] Caden Zane Marshall: Is there women?

[41:12] Jeff Parsons: I agree. Yeah, there's no women in there. We're like almost an hour into this conversation and I'm really embarrassed that we're only now mentioning that. But you're exactly right, Caden. I think that when I mentioned earlier how uneasy I feel about criticizing makeup too much in this story as being a cultural blemish, for lack of a better word. I feel like women who love makeup being on the team might be a little bit more helpful in saying like, no, it isn't the handcuffs maybe that you're treating it. Right. Or maybe even say like this, it is the handcuffs, but like deal with the nuances of it's dangerous. It does these things to our culture and it's wonderful because it does these things to our culture.

Much like how these two women aren't terrible people or wonderful people. They did things that hurt the society of women and they did things that uplifted women in the world of business and in the world of makeup and in the world of like so many things. So, and I'll also acknowledge that we're a couple of guys talking about a musical about women's relationships and that will impact the way that we talk about it too.

[42:26] Caden Zane Marshall: You're absolutely right. I stand in that feedback and I agree with you. See, we were talking about the musical and now we've already got sidetracked just talking about how interesting these women are again. So, in the first act, we meet these two women. They each have kind of their own songs about wanting to be on top. They also have guys in their lives. Elizabeth Arden has her husband. Helena Rubinstein has her like marketing guru.

[42:49] Jeff Parsons: Oh, Harry, Tommy and Harry.

[42:54] Caden Zane Marshall: Yes, Tommy and Harry. Tommy's the husband, Harry's the, I mean, I don't know if he's supposed to be gay, but he does seem like a fabulous gay man.

[43:05] Jeff Parsons: Oh no, he is. He absolutely is because that's one of the key plot points. They all have kind of a falling out in the first act in which Elizabeth Arden divorces the husband and then in a crazy chess move, Helena Rubinstein hires the husband to then work for her. Like that's actually real and pretty intense.

[43:24] Caden Zane Marshall: It seems totally fake. It seems like something that they would have made up, but like the switcheroo of like the assistant went to go work for Arden and the husband went to go work for Rubinstein is like so juicy. And then they started being like, hey, I worked under Rubinstein for this many years. Here's what she puts in her creams. And I was married to Arden for this long and I know exactly how she does this, this and this. If you want the secrets to know how to beat her for real, then take me on to your team.

[43:56] Jeff Parsons: Right. Which just like ups the stakes so much. It was one of the most exciting parts of the musical. And then that led to the lawsuits that not lawsuits, the legal trouble that they got into.

[44:07] Caden Zane Marshall: Yeah. Kind of the tattletailing. The first act ends with these two women turning to the government for help basically to shut the other one down. Helena tattles on Arden saying that her face cream can be doubled as like a horse salve or something like that. Then what does she do in retaliation? Do you remember?

[44:29] Jeff Parsons: Arden finds out that Rubinstein is putting like really out there things like crushed cockroach and like and then they both get into trouble for the ways that they are running their businesses and the things that they're putting on people's faces and the ways that they're lying with their products and not including all their ingredients. So the court says you have to put all of your ingredients on your products and you need to stop like being so deceitful with your marketing. Oh, and you have to refund all of the people who currently have like unfilled orders or something like that.

[45:07] Caden Zane Marshall: Then we get to see the ensemble come out and be like, Jesus Christ, there's crushed cockroach and borax in my face cream. That's which is probably what they use to kill the cockroaches.

[45:21] Jeff Parsons: Yes. And that that's a scandal. But ultimately, it doesn't feel like it really impacts the way that they know in any other time, I feel like a company would be done. Right. Yeah. But kind of the thing that saves them, not saves them, but changes everything even more is the World War.

[45:46] Caden Zane Marshall: Oh, do you know what's really interesting? You know, thanks largely in part to them, the beauty industry really skyrocketed during the 1920s. Hello, roaring 20s. Then the 30s hit. And you think like Great Depression, everybody would have stopped buying cosmetics. Not true. All of the sales during the Great Depression were very solid. By that point, lipstick had just become a necessity. It was kind of recession proof or depression proof their business. Then you get to the World War and now you can't use certain ingredients anymore. So Helena and Elizabeth are trying to figure out how do we keep our business going without being able to use any of the things we've used up until now. You can't use nylon, you know, all of these sorts of rations.

And we're already into the second act. I mean, we really just flew through that first act. Are there any numbers specifically that you would want to call out any favorite songs or things that you'd recommend people listen to?

[46:47] Jeff Parsons: I forget. Revlon's in the second act, right? Which one? Revlon.

[46:53] Caden Zane Marshall: Fire and Ice. It's the best number in the show. It's the best number in the show, but that's in the second act, right?

[46:58] Jeff Parsons: It's in the second act. Yeah. Okay. I feel like the best parts of the show are in the second act. I think the switcheroo, the one where the assistant and the husband, you know, the assistant goes out to like hook up with a guy and the husband-

[47:16] Caden Zane Marshall: Step on out.

[47:18] Jeff Parsons: Step on out. Yeah, that one's in the first act. That's when Elizabeth Arden decides to actually divorce her husband is because she catches him stepping on out on their marriage. And then, like you said, the marketing guy, the marketing gay has gone to hook up with a guy instead of be around Helena, and then she resents him for it and et cetera, et cetera.

[47:42] Caden Zane Marshall: Yeah. I think Act One has good moments that they just didn't strike me as hard as Act Two. I like Oh, That's Rich. I like Back on Top, which is Rubenstein's introduction song. I just think that the best of the musical is in the second act.

[47:58] Jeff Parsons: I agree. There are also a lot of- I don't want to criticize, so maybe I shouldn't say this. There are a lot of songs in the first act that are like, If I Were a Man.

[48:10] Caden Zane Marshall: It feels a little on the nose.

[48:13] Jeff Parsons: Well, there are these pensive moments that are tricking the musical into allowing them to sing duets because they're all in their own space. There's also the first act ends with face to face where they're wondering what it would be like to be face to face. I don't know. I don't care. It doesn't hit as well as I think they hoped it would.

[48:34] Caden Zane Marshall: Yeah, I feel bad. The second act does have some really interesting stuff, though. Like you said, we have the war. There's this great whole sort of montage thing called Necessity is the Mother of Invention. Once we get to the 1950s, they are each approached about bringing their products to television as a commercial, and they both say no. That's kind of beneath them or placating to a demographic that they don't really see as worth their time.

[49:09] Jeff Parsons: So then when they tune in to see the show, the new company that does have a commercial is Revlon, owned by a man, Charles Revson.

[49:17] Caden Zane Marshall: What's his name? Revson.

[49:24] Jeff Parsons: Thank you. It's my favorite number in the show. It's called Fire and Ice. Now why I think that this number is such a good song, first of all, but also the reason I love it so much is because at this point, we've seen how hard these two women have tried to make their industry feel legitimate, right? We just got done talking about how actresses and prostitutes were the only ones who were wearing makeup, and they wanted instead a housewife to be able to say, hey, that's for me as well. So they took the sex out of the product. They wanted it to feel wholesome and clean and about health. Then here comes Revlon doing Fire and Ice and bringing sex back into the product. It's now in the 1950s, so it's accessing people in a way that they hadn't been able to and is really, really effective. They feel kind of blindsided by this new approach.

[50:26] Caden Zane Marshall: Right. It's that their resistance to change that ends up really being what makes them not.

[50:30] Caden Zane Marshall: I love the line that Arden says. She's like, well, once you start selling down, you can never go back up. Once you start selling to poorer people, your brand loses that richness and exclusivity that allows you to benefit from that kind of clientele. And I was like, well, that's true. But then again, she wasn't willing to change with the times. Is that the hill you want to die on? And it was the hill that she died. I mean, she didn't die on it because Arden is still a brand. But she had to, I mean, spoiler, she had to sort of sell everything away eventually. She basically signed her name away.

[51:10] Jeff Parsons: Yeah, actually very, very soon after that. There's only one song in between Fire and Ice and Pink when she is contemplating her legacy as being sort of distilled down to just pinkness. And that's Dinosaurs when the two guys who did the switcheroo meet at a bar and they talk about how terrible they are and how not with the times they are and how the two of them can tell that this is the beginning of their downturn into, what's the word? It's not obscurity, but they're just not influential the way that they were.

[51:50] Caden Zane Marshall: Yeah, that's great. Can I tell you a story about Dinosaurs?

[51:54] Jeff Parsons: Yes.

[51:56] Caden Zane Marshall: So I was driving on the freeway last week listening to Dinosaurs and just marveling at the fact that John Dossett and Douglas Sills are roaring on a cast album. And I suddenly hear this horrible grinding sound and a truck, a huge truck has come into my lane and their enormous tire is just like making a huge hole, grinding right on my driver's side door. And I obviously didn't see them coming because they're in my blind spot. So then we like pulled over and exchanged information in my car's in the shop now, but I'm happy that I was fine and everything. But now whenever I think of that song, Dinosaurs, I will forever be triggered by the memory.

[52:51] Jeff Parsons: I'll be forever triggered. I also once got rear-ended really badly while listening to Moving Uptown from The Wild Party. And so whenever I hear Eartha Kitt sing that song, I remember that experience of being rear-ended on the freeway, right?

[53:06] Caden Zane Marshall: I hear you're going uptown. Funny how things like that happen. But I wanted to get it out of the way because these two songs, Pink and then Helena's song, Forever Beautiful, these songs and these women performing these songs are sublime. Two 11 o'clock numbers from some of the most talented women on Broadway is more than I could have possibly asked for. This is part of why Act Two is so good.

[53:36] Jeff Parsons: You're right. You're absolutely right. It's like 10:45 and 11:15. And between the two of them, we get 11 o'clock.

[53:42] Caden Zane Marshall: We get 11. And I love Pink because she's presented with this contract that's like, please sign away your company and a color pink because that's your signature thing. Her iconic shade.

[53:56] Jeff Parsons: Her iconic shade of art and pink. And she's like, wow, after all of that, all that I'm worth is the pink that I brought to this company. That's the biggest thing that they want from me out of what I made. And it's like this really heartbreaking and interesting song where she's like, all the pink things that I've made and worked with. And I didn't even love the color.

[54:18] Caden Zane Marshall: And I didn't even love the color. Which on that cast album, she says it. I didn't even love the color. And you're kind of like, okay, you're lying. But in the slime tutorial that I watched, it was a very passive thing. She was like, I don't even love it that much. And I was like, oh my God, I'm going to cry. Stop it, Christine.

[54:40] Jeff Parsons: My gosh.

[54:41] Caden Zane Marshall: And then Beauty in the World.

[54:42] Jeff Parsons: And then Beauty in the World. Patti sounding...

[54:45] Caden Zane Marshall: Oh no, forever beautiful.

[54:47] Jeff Parsons: Oh no, forever beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.

[54:50] Caden Zane Marshall: My bad. Well, there we go. That's maybe another criticism. But Patti sounding maybe the best she's ever sounded in her life. She's in her... I don't know how old she was when she did this show, but she sounds incredible.

[55:06] Jeff Parsons: Incredible. And we get to see her passion for makeup and skincare and health coming from this deep need that she has to be immortal and to not fade away, which is why she got all of these portraits done of herself and just trying to figure out how she can preserve beauty. Because if she sees those things and she sees herself looking beautiful, she feels beautiful, which means she is beautiful. And it's like, wow, this is the most important thing to you.

[55:37] Caden Zane Marshall: Well, because she also was surrounded by so much sadness. I mean, she lost her sister to the Nazis. She gets kicked out of her house very young. She has seen a lot of ugliness.

[55:49] Jeff Parsons: A lot of life, yeah.

[55:51] Caden Zane Marshall: And I just have to hand it to these writers. I don't think we could have seen... We talked about Wicked. We talked about The Rink. These are all stories starring women who are 30s and under. And here we have a musical about mature women sounding great and being complex characters. And like you said, I want more of it.

[56:13] Jeff Parsons: Yes.

[56:14] Caden Zane Marshall: So then the show ends with both of them, and this is all made up, but with both of them being invited to give a keynote address, they don't realize that the other person was also asked. And so they show up at the same time, and now they have to face each other for the first time. How do you feel about this part?

[56:33] Jeff Parsons: I loved it.

[56:34] Caden Zane Marshall: Me too. I felt like it was one of the most intense moments. There were so few lines. It was so affecting, and it made the weight of them never interacting feel so much more worth it when they actually see each other for the first time. And you're like, it's actually happening. They're actually meeting. What are they going to do? It's just like, it's such a high stakes moment, even though the stakes somehow are so not there because they've already sort of fallen into obscurity in a way. And I love the song that they sing, Beauty in the World, where they're lamenting, it's an elegy. The book writer said that it's an elegy for an older generation's values of decorum and sensibility. And they're just-

[57:20] Caden Zane Marshall: Oh, I love that.

[57:20] Jeff Parsons: They're like, nobody understands true beauty the way that we understood it as we were growing up, and now things are coarser. And I wonder if it's a coarsening or is it simply whiteness and white society and white culture simply mingling with things that are different, with change, with non-whiteness, and white people just see that as coarseness. I like that it's where our society has gone, where there's so much less hiding and social codes and barriers to access. But I also think that things speed up, and things become about mass production and things like they're no longer about reveling in the beauty of something. There's so much conversation right now about we don't appreciate fine art, detailed paintings and the hard skills of craftsmanship because of mass production and just getting whatever we want from Amazon.

That's not something that's being valued the way that it used to be. And I love that song because it makes me think about all of that. It's a really interesting topic to bring to the end of this show.

[58:34] Caden Zane Marshall: Thank you for sharing all of that. That's so great. I also love this sequence. It feels like a breath of fresh air for me because so much of the show is tied to telling history and making sure that their stories are accurate so that when they finally go into this fantasy sequence, it almost feels like the writers get an opportunity to just be creative. What could have been said? What could they have connected on? And it's really fun to hear it play out. It's funny how this sequence in many ways holds hands with Death Becomes Her for me.

[59:12] Jeff Parsons: I was going to mention Death Becomes Her. Yes. It's a weird little campy step cousin to this and obviously much funnier, but also has a lot to do with what is beautiful and is allowing change to happen part of beauty.

[59:30] Caden Zane Marshall: I believe it is. As someone who wants to consider himself a progressive, part of that definition means you don't just arrive somewhere and now we've landed. We can't keep it. Things are going to change. That's the laws of the universe.

[59:46] Jeff Parsons: One of the other things that I think is missing from this show is a strong sense of what the writers wanted us to come away with because I think it starts and ends the show with this makeup is a poison to our culture and is trapping you and then it becomes about contemplating beauty and then it becomes about we're just telling you these women's stories so that you know and it doesn't land somewhere.

[1:00:06] Caden Zane Marshall: That's a great note. It has the hints of a lens. It has the hints of a thesis, but Death Becomes Her strikes its thesis so hard that I'm like, I think now having that to compare to Warpaint makes me go, okay, Warpaint doesn't have to have the same thesis as Death Becomes Her. I just want it to be telling me something a little bit more definitive.

[1:00:40] Jeff Parsons: At the beginning of Beauty in the World, Arden says, did we enslave women or did we empower them? I was like, where was that? Why weren't we exploring that the whole time? It strikes me so hard because it's a great question, but also because I didn't expect that. I wasn't on that train throughout this story and I think if there was more like them trying to coerce women a little bit more and empower them more and we got to see a little bit more of what they were doing and label for ourselves while we're watching and go, I think they're coercing or I think they're empowering and then them ask that question at the end, it doesn't have to be answered. It would help us come away from it being like, oh, I have something to discuss with my neighbor in the theater rather than being like, okay, now I know about Arden and Rubenstein. That's cool.

[1:01:38] Caden Zane Marshall: Yeah, that's a great point. I also think that the thing that sticks out to me about this song, which it doesn't really feel super connected to that question about did we enslave or did we empower, what the song feels like is very much a contemplation of older women or actually, I would just say older people in general, maybe even from this period of time specifically, where it was rude to say things out loud. Just from a cultural place, if you had a problem, you kept it to yourself because it's nobody else's business. And we have since moved much further away from that as we talk about the importance of vulnerability and sharing your truth and speaking your truth and all of that, right? So I do think that there is something really fascinating about these two women who never talked to each other and were very domineering in their own way. And yet maybe we're doing it because that is the quote unquote, polite way.

[1:02:46] Jeff Parsons: Well, like if they were in today's culture, they would have sort of...

[1:02:53] Caden Zane Marshall: They'd be on Instagram taking each other down, right? And instead it was much more passive-aggressive. It was much more... And to really stand at the end of this story and say,

[1:03:08] Caden Zane Marshall: We've chosen to live our lives because we believe and we were taught and we've accepted that this is how one is beautiful in every way, whether it's from a decorum place or a beauty standard or whatever. And we're now mourning that we are headed into a time and a place where that is quickly changing.

[1:03:28] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's so interesting. I was I was gonna say it was like, I'd kind of like to see that played out in some way. And then I was like, No, that's that's part of what makes this show so interesting is that we we get to see how they interacted in the midst of their culture and the sort of norms that they decided to follow causing them to you know, like it's even like the it's why Harry quit because Rubenstein was being an asshole to him about being with men. And he found somebody who was willing to overlook it not even support him about it. But just that Arden was willing to ignore it, ignore like be like, well, we will we can hide that and I won't ask you about your personal life and what you do with your time.

But yeah, I am with where it ends up. I do like finish the show being like, yeah, I enjoyed that especially the ending because I got to see this fictionalized version of their meeting and I and I appreciated the artistic merit of like jumping into that. But I also sort of leave being like, like with the impression that makeup and and business dealings with such things are kind of trivial. And I often feel that way when business is put into a musical. But I don't think that that's like what the writers intended for me to feel. But I also kind of wonder if that is how they felt. Like, I think that there's there's parts of this musical where I think I wish that a woman would have been in this writing room, because I can kind of hear a group of men who don't use makeup and don't have a full understanding of like how that impacts your life, trivializing the work of it and trivializing the cultural impact of it, you know.

[1:05:22] Caden Zane Marshall: And it's fair. It's a fair criticism for two gay men to give to, I don't know, I think quite a few boys on that creative team are also homosexuals. But yeah, but I think it's a fair criticism and something that we as diva worshipers need to remember. We love the stories of women, but also we don't always understand. Yes, the stories of women. It doesn't mean that we understand where they're coming from. And yes, we can write about it like we can and we have. But like, there's something about like getting blinded by the sparkle of like an epic woman that doesn't really allow us to like start from a place of humanity. And I think I see that in drag a lot. And I see that a lot in the way that women are written in musical theatre.

And it's still so heavily male dominated that I'm like... Sometimes we want to see the kind of female that we wish we were if we were female. Right. Like, yes, we have been wowed and dazzled by like dames of Broadway past, even though just the look at these divas-ness of Warpaint is still one of the things that makes me enjoy it the most.

[1:06:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: No, that's nuanced. I appreciate it. And I appreciate you, Caden. Thank you so much for doing this with me. There was something that you asked me about my spreadsheets and where this lands on those. Do we want to talk about that?

[1:06:54] Caden Zane Marshall: Yes, please. That's a great way to finish because you have all of these great spreadsheets, specifically like where these musicals land on a chronological timeline.

[1:07:06] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Timeline. Yeah. So what else is happening during Warpaint?

[1:07:13] Caden Zane Marshall: So many things. I don't always remember exactly how I found the dates that I have written down for all of these. But if you go to my website, which is CadenZane.com, that's C-A-D-E-N, not K-A-I-Y-D-Y-N or whatever Gen Z, Gen Alpha is spelling my name. We love you, but your parents are crazy. Continue.

[1:07:36] Caden Zane Marshall: There's a chronology of musicals link that has just like from the dawn of time all the way to the future when musicals take place and they're stacked on top of each other. So you get to see like which musicals overlap with each other. So this I have written down is 1935 to 1964. And I'd love to tell you exactly why, but I can't totally remember. But I know I looked it up and found those numbers at some point. And it has like major overlaps with actually I think I'm just going to I'm going to send this little list of them to you, because I think if I throw them out all willy nilly, it's kind of hard to grasp. But these are just a prey few of the major overlaps.

[1:08:20] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Oh my gosh, these are interesting.

[1:08:29] Caden Zane Marshall: Evita, which hello, Patty. Hello. Color Purple. Wow. That's Sunset Boulevard, of course. Grease. Grease. Little Shop. South Pacific. Raisin. The Producers. Carolina Change. Oh my gosh. That's really interesting.

[1:08:45] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: And that's why I was like, oh, because you you asked me about the timeline and I was like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think to bring that up. Silly me. So I opened that up and I was like, there's so many true stories here. There's so much that was happening in the world while these women were at the top of it that I'm like, I want to see how Marilyn Monroe was impacted by this. I want to see them. I feel like the musical removes it so much from the context of the world, partially because they're rich, top of their game women and they don't have to be impacted by the world. I think seeing that be happening at the same time as the Nelson Mandela musical makes me totally recontextualize what I'm seeing and hearing and listening to, because I understand that what they created in terms of makeup went all over the world, like totally changed the way that women present themselves and the way that men interact with women and the way that advertisements are made and the way that makeup is formulated.

And that's part of why I made this chronology is because I was like, I wanted to be able to understand the context of these stories and the context of history surrounding musicals like Greece, Greece.

[1:10:05] Caden Zane Marshall: It honestly makes me emotional looking at this list and looking at what you've done, because you see in a 20 year period, how many different kinds of stories can be found. Look at one of your spreadsheets and see how one little piece of a timeline can include so many different kinds of stories, so many different people's stories. So many different world events, so many different, very interpersonal, intimate stories. We are surrounded by stories as humans. We just are. And it's so inspiring to me to see that so plainly in your stuff. So thank you for taking the time.

[1:10:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Thank you. I also have it listed on my musicals you'd love spreadsheet, which is like, here's musicals that if you like war paint, you might like Gray Gardens or The Visit or Flowers for Mrs. Harris, which is a Madison County. And then like a locations one where you can find where war paint is on the map and then see what other musicals are really nearby. So that's on Fifth Avenue. 42nd Street is at the Winter Garden, which is really nearby street scene scene, right?

[1:11:14] Caden Zane Marshall: Elmer Ries.

[1:11:14] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: The producers Thoroughly Modern Millie, Shuffle Along, Tootsie and like all kinds of shows happen right around there. And then if you sort of overlap the chronology with the locations, then some of them are like happening right by each other. Like the producers overlaps with war paint towards the end of the like, like in the 60s. And so you're like, oh.

[1:11:37] Caden Zane Marshall: Like in theory, Helena Rubinstein and Arden have their businesses just blocks away from each other and then just blocks away from that Springtime for Hitler is like playing.

[1:11:47] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: It's happening. Exactly. In the big world of musical theater. Isn't that fun?

[1:11:52] Caden Zane Marshall: That's so fun.

[1:11:55] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: This is why I'm a nerd. The stuff like war paint.

[1:11:59] Caden Zane Marshall: That's fantastic.

[1:12:02] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: As always, if you have recommendations for shows you'd like us to cover on a musical theater podcast, please email me. Don't send it on social media because then I can't remember who who's requested them. Email me at amusicalpodcast at gmail.com and I will put it on the list and we'll try and get to it. Join us at patreon.com slash a musical podcast. That's Patreon exclamation point where subscribers receive bonus episodes, essays, polls. It's I mean, it's such a fun time over there and I would love to see you over there for just a few dollars a month. Not to mention it keeps the podcast going. So join us at patreon.com slash a musical podcast.

[1:12:43] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: We're also on social media. We're creating content. Share it so that more people can find the show and listen. More than anything, I'm so grateful that you are part of this beautiful community, which is why we've also created our Tee Public Store. I forgot about the Tee Public Store where we have great designs that you can put on all sorts of products and the profits we receive from that we donate to Broadway Cares Equity Fights AIDS. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Kate and Zane Marshall. You have been a wonderful guest. Can you please tell us how we follow you, where we should follow you and anything you want to plug?

[1:13:12] Caden Zane Marshall: Yeah, so I'm the musical dealer on TikTok and Instagram and a little bit on YouTube. I post on YouTube shorts every once in a while, but it's not really great for that. But Instagram and TikTok for sure at the musical dealer. My concept is that I like have my little trench coat of watches and I sort of open it up. I'm like, would you like to would you like to get an obscure little musical? I just got some in from Australia, you know. I opened up my briefcase and I'm like, these are from check out these high quality original cast albums you've never heard of.

[1:13:48] Caden Zane Marshall: Exactly. And you can also find my website, kateandzane.com. That's also my interpreting website I have like for my acting. I have for my interpreting and I have for my influencer work and you can you can book me as an interpreter for your musical. I just got commissioned to create a playlist for a musical theater drag queen who wants more repertoire, more campy stuff. So I was like, oh, I have it for you. So I just finished creating it and it's on my Spotify, which is also the musical dealer. And it's like everything from like dramatic ballads to like something campy and cunty like tacks from the Marie Antoinette musical cake. So all kinds of all kinds of resources. I just like to resource people and like put information out there and be like, here's new artists that need your support.

Here's new musicals that are absolutely fantastic and share the love because Broadway is not the end all be all of theater. Broadway is the Epcot of theater and we need to like diversify our portfolio.

[1:14:57] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Isn't that good? Somebody commented that in my comments one time and I was like, Broadway is the Epcot of theater. Absolutely. Steven Schwartz pavilion over on the right. We got Rodgers and Hammerstein pavilion.

[1:15:09] Caden Zane Marshall: One hundred percent. That's so that's so great. Thank you for your work. Thank you for everything you're doing. Everyone out there. Thank you for listening. And remember and remember Broadway is the Epcot of theater.

[1:15:39] Jeffrey Scott Parsons: Remember Broadway is the Epcot of theater.