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[0:00] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Hi, I'm Jennifer Ashley Tepper.

[0:02] Joe Iconis: And I'm Joe Iconis. And you are listening to ALBUM PODCAST on the Broadway Podcast Network. This week's episode is about Him Today, Gone Tomorrow, which is an incredible show-stopping rock and roll masterwork as performed and originated by Shakina Nayfack in her show Manifest Pussy. And Shakina is someone that I've known for a very, very, very long time. And the origin story of this song spans many, many years and many rooms and, and whiskey and conversation and so many things. This episode, we get to talk about this special track, which is particularly special because it's not often a song that's heard in many Joe Iconis and family shows. So it's like super special rock out to your album. This song is a good one.

A rare gem. Him Today, Gone Tomorrow. I love that this song is on the album because this song you wrote, especially for our friend Shakina Nayfack for Manifest Pussy, which we'll talk about. But it's like a special song in that it's not like as frequently heard. It's usually just like within Shakina's show. So it's just really exciting to have it be included like on the album so we can listen to it all the time.

[1:46] Joe Iconis: Yeah, and I love I'm so proud of the recording itself. I just love it so much. Yeah, Shakina asked me to write this song for her show Manifest Pussy, as you said, and the title is actually from Shakina. Because in the show, I forget the exact setup, but she talks about like sort of wanting to be a rock and roll star and mentions, you know, him today, gone tomorrow would be one of her hit singles because the show is about Shakina's transition. And so she asked me to write this tune for her. And I remember when I wrote it, I knew that, you know, she said that she kind of wanted it to be about this transitional moment. So in like a story of many transitions, this is like a transitional moment in a larger transition.

And so I loved this idea of, you know, this idea of someone kind of being between two places. And having the realization that the in between is just as valid as the start of the journey and the destination. And that idea is an idea that feels kind of like, you know, hard to fully grasp, like that idea feels very sort of like, like, you know, sort of like in the ether. It's, you know, it's like a very sort of like ephemeral idea of like the, you know, the in between is just as great as the start or the end. And so because of that, I wanted to musicalize it with music that felt really sturdy, and really approachable and kind of like classic rock. Like, so I, you know, my initial take on the tune as I was writing it was like, I want this to feel like a, like a, like a, you know, like a theme song from like an 80s sitcom or something, you know, it's like, I want it like wants to feel like, like dad rock or something.

It's something that's just like, you know, really like hearty, like, you know, meat and potatoes kind of, you know, warm, sturdy rock sound. And then the song itself goes through like a bit of a transformation, kind of halfway through and then to the ending where it feels like it gets a little more nuanced and brings in a different vibe. But I, yeah, yeah, I was so honored to be asked to write the tune. And Shakina herself embodies so many, you know, different things. And I wanted to capture as many sides of her as I could in the tune, both lyrically and musically.

[4:51] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And can you talk about so like, you know, obviously, Shakina is a friend and collaborator, but how much conversation did you have before you wrote this song, like specifically about what the song is about? And like, how did her sharing, like her experience inform the lyrics and stuff as you were writing them?

[5:10] Joe Iconis: Yeah, I mean, as far as the specifics of the song, you know, I had met Shakina, like, at Barrington Stage Company, many years ago. And so I, you know, I had sort of seen her show, which, you know, which is specifically about her background, you know, her sort of like childhood and young adulthood, and then her transition. I had sort of seen it kind of come together in various stages, you know, from like nights of stories, you know, around like a kitchen table with, with, you know, whiskey and Elnathan present to like, you know, like proper cabarets, where she told some stories and sang some cover songs to like the one act version of the show where there were some original songs. And so I sort of saw it all grow.

And, you know, the way that she's able to talk about her feelings, as a young person, as a young trans person, at a time when it feels like the, you know, the conversation about, you know, trans people and issues, the conversation, the sort of national conversation is not what it is now. And it's like, and this wasn't that long ago that, you know, she was like a teenager struggling with this stuff. And it's, and the vocabulary for talking about it even was so different, and just not there. But the way that Shakina is able to like express what she felt at that time, and the clarity with which she felt it, even though she didn't have a lot of, you know, people to look to at that time. And that was something that was really, really inspiring to me and something that really made me feel like it was a, you know, I sort of owed it to her to make something that accurately represented what I had heard her talk about for so long.

But it's that just like, you know, belief in yourself and that confidence in something that feels so overwhelming and something that feels so like, you know, so foreign and uncharted and that that like absolute belief in yourself.

[7:33] Joe Iconis: is something that I both, you know, relate to and I'm really, really, really inspired by. And, you know, I feel like a lot of times, like, a lot of the, like, a lot of the things, you know, the words kind of associated with transitions, both in terms of, you know, gender affirming surgery and just sort of transitions in general, like a lot of, like, the words and ideas associated with those things are these kind of, like, you know, very sort of, like, delicate words and delicate imagery and, like, really sort of, you know, like, beautiful, you know, whimsical, you know, things and notions. And, you know, when Shakina talks about it, she has that and Shakina is very spiritual and, you know, can sort of talk about it in this kind of, like, grand cosmic way.

But there also is just this, like, nuts and bolts to how she talks about it on this kind of, like, you know, like, get her done kind of, you know, attitude that is really, I just think is really, really cool. And that, you know, that attitude definitely worked its way into the song, just the, you know, just the vibe of it musically and lyrically.

[8:59] Joe Iconis: Yeah, it feels very like rock and roll on the album. Like you can kind of picture that 80s rock club that you were talking about through her performance and the instrumentation and, like, all of it. And I kind of love that it's sandwiched between these two very different songs on the album. So if you're listening, it's really like a very different vibe and like a burst of kind of rock in the middle of it.

[9:26] Joe Iconis: Yeah, yeah. And you know, like this, this is actually an example of like, you know, Velociraptor, which comes before this one. You know, as we were talking about when we were talking about that song, like Velociraptor is so much, you know, someone who feels like they're the body in which they, you know, in the body that they inhabit, that they move around the world in is something is something is not, you know, fitting in with those around them. Something feels off and they feel displaced in some way and they don't fully understand it. It's it that feels thematically connected to me, to him today gone tomorrow. The difference is it feels like him today gone tomorrow is someone saying I was feeling disconnected in some way.

And so I'm connecting myself. It's like it feels like they're both on they're both on different sides of the same the same, you know, issue or feeling or something. It's just him today gone tomorrow is like, you know, it's like if the Velociraptor, you know, was was able to just, you know, fully embrace their Velociraptor and be like, I don't care about what, you know, anything. It's like it feels like there's a decision that has been made in him today gone tomorrow that feels like maybe it starts with Velociraptor. And so like the songs could not be, you know, more different. The subject matter could not be more different than the music could not be more different. But I do think that they they kind of feel, you know, like they're I wouldn't necessarily call them sister songs, but they feel like, you know, cousin songs. They feel kind of connected.

[11:04] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Totally, totally. I could see that. So when this song was originally performed in Manifest Pussy, obviously, like a different journey than most of your songs have because it was performed as an evening with like other people's songs and all of that. Do you ever approach for this song or otherwise anything about this song differently when you know it's going to be part of a full narrative where you didn't write the rest of it?

[11:29] Joe Iconis: Yeah, I mean, Manifest Pussy is sort of a it's sort of an untraditional musical in that there is a, you know, there's a story, there's a narrative, but it does take the form of a concert. And so I had a little bit more freedom to write something that felt like a standalone song in the context of Manifest Pussy than I would if it was like, you know, a straight up book musical. So like, you know, when I'm writing a song for something like, you know, Blood Song or Be More Chill or whatever, it's like I'm trying to, you know, start the song in one place and then leave it off in another so that the story can continue. And for this one, there definitely there definitely is movement. There's definitely a change throughout the song.

However, it I feel like it does kind of work as its own little standalone thing. And I was only able to do that because of the sort of like the concert structure of the show. But even with that, I, you know, the like the I was definitely writing for a for a moment that I and so I knew that I had to like check the boxes of the moment, which is, you know, which is a different way of writing for sure. But also it like gets back to this thing that I always have where it's like, I can only write something if I connect to it. Like I do not know how to fake it. I don't know how to pretend like I, you know, see myself in a character or an idea or thought. And so like, you know, even though it's Shakina's story, and even though the context of it is, you know, is rooted in Shakina's own experiences, and then Shakina's musical, I saw a lot of myself in that story. And I connected to this moment that the character is going through, which allowed me to write.

[13:22] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, cool. Yeah, I always wonder that about like the further process when things are like reviews, or when there are song cycles with songs by multiple writers. And it's like, the process is so different if those people are in a room versus not like, I almost want there to be like a Studs Terkel style, like oral history of making the musical working because it's like, how do you as a writer contribute material when you don't know the other material? And like, you know, you're given a scenario or a moment, but I felt like and I saw Manifest Pussy a couple times, like, it's just fun to have different voices that like you usually see do their own concerts kind of coming together to tell Shakina's story. So it's pretty cool project. If you get to see it listeners, if she does it again, check it out. Highly recommended.

[14:16] Joe Iconis: Hey, thanks so much for listening or watching to my podcast. Do me a favor and go to wherever you just listen to or watch this thing and subscribe or like or give us a great rating or review and then head to bpn.fm slash album to find out even more information about this podcast, more ways to watch more ways to listen and check out my album. Thanks so much for hanging out. Album podcast is executive produced by Liz Armstrong, produced by Dori Berenstain, Alan Seals, Kim Garris and the rest of the team at the Broadway Podcast Network. Be sure to visit bpn.fm slash album for both audio and video versions of this podcast and to listen to album.