This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Joe Iconis: Hi, I'm Joe Iconis. And I'm Jennifer Ashley Tepper. And on today's episode, we're talking about my song, Norman. This song on the album is performed by the one and only Lance Rubin, frequent Iconis collaborator, and he just sings the crap out of it. He's been singing this song for like a decade and it gets better every single time, which we just praise Lance on this episode.

[0:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, he's a really, really brilliant artist. He's a brilliant writer, a brilliant musician and a brilliant actor and a gentle and generous lover. And his interpretation of this song is very stunning. I hope you like it.

[0:47] Joe Iconis: We all get a little sad sometimes.

[0:51] Joe Iconis: Norman!

[0:53] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: That's his name. Don't wear it out.

[0:56] Joe Iconis: This song is so great. It's sung by the great Lance Rubin.

[1:00] Joe Iconis: Yeah, the song I wrote for Halloween show at the Beach Bim and it is inspired by the movie Psycho.

[1:08] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And it is like many of your songs, it's like a person's name as a song, another theme.

[1:14] Joe Iconis: Yeah, that's just, you know, it's the name that's at the top of the page, the character name. So that's the name of the song.

[1:21] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: What year was it written?

[1:23] Joe Iconis: It was written in 2000 and maybe it was 10, it was 2010.

[1:27] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I feel like it was, wasn't it first performed like at the Duplex at the same time as like around the Blood Song time? No?

[1:34] Joe Iconis: That was, so it was performed, it was performed at that Duplex show.

[1:38] Joe Iconis: But it wasn't its premiere.

[1:39] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I think it was its premiere. I think I premiered it at Halloween.

[1:43] Joe Iconis: And then I think that performance that Lance did at the Duplex, right?

[1:49] Joe Iconis: That was the first time that someone other than me had sung it.

[1:52] Joe Iconis: And so it hadn't, yeah, it hadn't been performed since I did it.

[1:55] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: I'm glad we went on that journey together.

[1:57] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: What was your way into this song?

[1:59] Joe Iconis: Like what did, okay, maybe we should talk about this because like I'm sure there's a lot of different answers. But like you don't typically write all of your songs from the beginning. Like sometimes you start with the chorus. Sometimes you start with a hook. Sometimes you start with some random lyric idea. Like where did this song start, I guess?

[2:13] Joe Iconis: This song started with the idea of wanting to write a song that was from the point of view of Norman Bates.

[2:25] Joe Iconis: But in a way that, that was like a sort of like throwback-y love song. Like so it was like sort of the kernel was like, oh yeah, I want to write this. I want to write a song for this character.

[2:40] Joe Iconis: And not sort of like tip my hand about who the character turns into. It's like allowing him to have this like this sort of like flash of romance. And, you know, obviously specifically about Norman Bates.

[3:04] Joe Iconis: But I do always, I'm so fascinated by like, you know, like I'm sure that, that, you know, Jeffrey Dahmer. Like he, there was probably a moment in his life where he saw, you know, some, some kid like jumping rope and was like, oh, that's cute.

[3:24] Joe Iconis: And like genuinely had that thought. Like not in a way that was like, I want to murder that kid. Just like, oh, that's cute. Like I think that it's like, you know, whether they're real people or fictional characters.

[3:34] Joe Iconis: I just don't believe that like people are all bad or all insane or all, you know, all one thing. There are these moments of whatever. And so I love the idea of like using a character that people know from pop culture and sort of exploring that idea.

[3:51] Joe Iconis: And it's like, you know, and it's funny because we, you know, sort of know Norman Bates as a killer. And we know that he, that he, you know, I mean, spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't seen Psycho, which you should.

[4:01] Joe Iconis: But we know that Norman kills Marion. And, and, but I think that, you know, before, before that, it's like, I do think that he, he clearly likes her, you know, in, in Psycho.

[4:13] Joe Iconis: He's clearly intrigued by her in a way that feels, you know, whether it's, whether it's sexual or whatever, I don't know. But there's, it feels like he has a little crush on her, which feels, you know, romantic.

[4:25] Joe Iconis: And so I just wanted to write for that moment.

[4:27] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. Do you feel like as a writer, it's a hard line to toe because, you know, obviously in like the great stories about people who murder or people who commit terrible crimes, it's like we are even more horrified or we can understand even more about the character because they're not one dimensional.

[4:44] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It's not like this is an evil character. You're painting a full picture of someone they have a crush on, or maybe they saw someone jumping rope and felt like it was cute. But there's this sometimes, there's this thing that happens where people misinterpret sometimes and are like, oh, you're writing something that makes us sympathize with a killer or makes us on their side in some way.

[5:00] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: How do you like navigate that as a writer when obviously you're not like, I condone this person murdering this person, but you need to write the character in such a way so that it reflects what we're seeing in society or it is a real person.

[5:11] Joe Iconis: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's you know, the answer is that it's it that's just tricky. It's just hard. But I I think that if you're if you're, you know, if you're writing a character, it's it's not it's not real life.

[5:26] Joe Iconis: And it's and you know, if you're making a piece of art, whether it's a song or a musical or a movie or a TV show, whatever, I think that you're only going to serve everyone better if you if you write each character with empathy, even the worst ones, you know, because something happens to any of these these people to make them what they are.

[5:48] Joe Iconis: And that's something could be, you know, however they were born and their DNA. But more than likely, there's things that happen to them in their lives that turn them into however we know them or, you know, if we know them by their the worst thing they ever did. Things led to that. That didn't just happen.

[6:03] Joe Iconis: And so I think that, you know, it's it's it feels it feels more it actually feels more respectful to me, to anyone involved, to everyone involved, to paint each each character, you know, both the perpetrator and the victim with the appropriate amount of of honesty and authenticity and empathy.

[6:28] Joe Iconis: Which doesn't mean that you you know, that you that you yeah, I'm not condoning or citing and I'm just trying to like, you know, give a full a full picture.

[6:37] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, because it's like, you know, the idea of like, I mean, you know, it's I think it's I think this actually is something that's specifically hard in in musicals, because people still like as soon as you have a character sing, there's something a little silly about that.

[6:57] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: And even people who love musical theater and opera, whatever, it's like it's there's still this this this tiny hurdle you have to get over. And this this tiny suspension of disbelief that you have to get over in a way that you just don't in a movie, or even sometimes in a straight play.

[7:14] Joe Iconis: And so you can have, you know, movies that are about about it, you know, whatever, killers are terrible, you know, people are, you know, you can you can have Hitler, you know, movie that Hitler and it could be very serious movie and you know, and he's been on movies that that that man who was a real life monster.

[7:36] Joe Iconis: And, and you can look at it and people can talk about it and we can talk about how we're examining you know Hitler psyche and whatever, whatever I want to do, and you can you can have a play about him and and seriously talk about it.

[8:01] Joe Iconis: Hitler in a musical and singing anything but even slightly resembled, you know, contemporary or golden age musical theater, it is something that people lose their minds over, because it's like having characters saying their feelings automatically, it, it, it's, it's empathy in a, in a, in a crazy way, even if you're into it tonight, you know, and it's like both, it's both immediate empathy, and there's something a little bit like silly about it.

[8:31] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It's so easy to look at it and be like, Oh, you're making this a joke or you know this.

[8:46] Joe Iconis: Yeah, it's like wrapping my head around that it's also I don't think it's just because of the perception of musical theater silly it's part of it but like even if you took that away.

[9:12] Joe Iconis: You're automatically not just more empathetic but it's almost like you're celebrating what the character's thoughts are or like, yeah, sweetie Todd sings his big you know the whole reason why he's the killer he is right and even if we don't approve of that we're like applauding and we're like, you know, we're hearing that character in a different way, because it wasn't a monologue because it was a song, and you're right I feel like that's like I mean Hitler is a great example of a character that you couldn't write a musical and do the things you would do in a movie.

[9:40] Joe Iconis: Yeah, and it's and you know what to it's like it's part of that is that I think that because of how it, how it works because of how music works, even if you know the even even if even if you know Epiphany and Sunni Todd, even if it didn't end with a, you know, with a big final ending that had people applaud, you're still engaging with it in a very elemental way that in a way that makes you complicit.

[10:06] Joe Iconis: Whether you want to be or not you it's more than just, you know, it's more than just watching something and be like well I don't agree with what he's doing but I understand how he got there, you are actively engaging in it because there's music you know so you can't help, but there's a there's a give and take and so you're part of it and so I think it's, I think that that's a huge, huge reason to why I think it's musical theater it's especially hard.

[10:26] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, to write stuff like this without it feeling like you're, you're condoning totally celebrating.

[10:26] Joe Iconis: Yeah, I mean the one of my song and I have quite a few songs where people either, you know, where either the singer, kill somebody or gets killed or, or there's a, there's a sort of unexpected bit of violence that happens in and around the song.

[10:41] Joe Iconis: Totally. Do you feel like that's been trickier with some songs and with others like talking about Norman but also all these other songs that are based on characters that might be killers or, you know, psychopaths or do you feel like one of them was more difficult.

[10:41] Joe Iconis: The one that I think is mentioned the most to me is Kevin, that song, and it's and I understand why it really really upsets, some people, because of the casualness with which the that murder in that song.

[11:00] Joe Iconis: It happens, but I think that's, you know, that's the point for me.

[11:19] Joe Iconis: And, you know, and I, I never want to exploit it but I want to be able to use the things that happen in, in, in, you know, in real life in my, in my work for, you know, dramatic purposes and I can only hope that people, you know, know the context, meaning, you know, know me and what I've done and been trying to do for many years and apply that to songs where, you know, things like murders happen.

[11:46] Joe Iconis: But, but yeah, and I think it's the, you know, it's in that song it's like it's the casualness that I think really upsets people.

[11:53] Joe Iconis: I think also with some of the songs, first of all with some of them, you might know the property that it's inspired by and so I feel like in that case sometimes our brains, especially the first time you hear something, you see it and more of a remove a little bit because you're like, oh, this is Joe's version of that character I love or that story I love, and you already are, you're not as shocked by oh that's a murderer because you already knew it if that makes sense.

[12:48] Joe Iconis: People get really upset and people feel like, you didn't tell me in the opening number that was going to happen. You didn't set this up. We're supposed to get the rules of the thing and that's how the thing is going to operate. And we know at the top that it's a singing contest, and at the end, someone's going to win. But it's like, as soon as you don't do that, it really unnerves people in such a funny way, in a way that does not happen in movies. In movies, when a movie has a great twist, that's the thing. That's the reason that it becomes a blockbuster sometimes. That's the thing that gets people excited. But in a piece of theater, especially musical theater, because you can do it in a play, but in a musical, everything has to align in order for it to happen.

Or in a song. But it's that, I think, because it unnerves people. And especially with something like Kevin, where it's a character who people think is funny, or the character is just bad enough that they feel like, I feel so bad laughing at this. Then it really pulls the rug out from under them when, oh, he's a murderer. So then it's like, I shouldn't have been laughing for those last few minutes. It is so hard. You're so right that with musicals and, well, this is a play rule, but the whole Chekhov thing of if you see a gun in act one, it has to go off in act two. I sometimes think about, I think this is one of the only shows that is able to do what we're talking about and surprise the audiences.

You're in Town when the twist happens and you're like, oh wait, the good guys don't win. They're going to die. This problem doesn't get solved. The problem is unsolvable. The environment is a mess. All of the stuff that You're in Town manages to do. And then by the, I guess, order of Broadway, Broadway loved it. It was a hit. It's a show we still know today. They are one of the only shows that gets away with that in a musical, I feel like.

[14:35] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: That's actually so right on. And it's shocking. It's shocking. It's insane. But it's like, I think You're in Town was able to sneak by with it and still be embraced because it's commenting on itself. Because it's the Brechtian thing. And so it's like we have the distance. We very purposely have the distance. So it's like, we're looking at this thing as opposed to feeling this thing. Yeah, I'm trying to think of other shows where the rule... It's hard because I want that too. And I'm like, it is frustrating. I don't want to always, if you see this in Act One, it has to happen in Act Two. I don't know. I think audiences do want to be surprised.

[15:16] Joe Iconis: Yeah. And it's like, also, it's like, I mean, yeah, it's such a wacky thing. I remember when we did Rewrite at the Goodspeed. The Goodspeed had a festival of musicals and we did a concert version of my show Rewrite there. And Rewrite is billed as a musical comedy triple feature. And so you think that you're seeing three disconnected 30-minute musicals. And then by the end of the second one, you realize that they're connected. And then by the end of the third one, you realize that it's all sort of one big thing. It's all about a writer sort of writing his life instead of living it. And in a way that I mean, I liked it because I wrote it. But when there was a talk back and the show did not go over well at Goodspeed Festival of Musicals.

People liked parts, but on the whole, people were just like, what is this? What is this ridiculous thing? And there was a real sense of people being pissed off because their expectations were not met, because they thought it was three separate things. And then they were like, we didn't know that going in. And it was so real. And I think that was the first time I ever realized like, oh, yeah, this isn't cool for a musical theater audience. But you're right. It's like, I mean, so many of my favorite like Taylor Swift does it all the time. It's a pop album. You think they're standalone songs and then they all connect. Yeah, it is something it's harder to get away with a musical theater.

[17:01] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's also a reason why I think like, this is true for me. I going into seeing an original musical, even if it does kind of do what's predicted, I always am kind of leaning forward more excited just because we don't know what's going to happen.

[17:11] Joe Iconis: Yeah. So it has like a riskier like maybe something takes we just don't know if it'll take a left turn.

[17:15] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. No, you're like you're totally right on. That was a right turn. Yeah. Getting back to Norman, I feel like Lance will first always talk about Lance Rubin, you know, writer, actor, extraordinary human being and artist. He also is someone who's been with you for so many years. And, you know, originated so much of your work.

[17:36] Joe Iconis: Yeah. He's just so freaking great on this track. He's just so great. He is. I mean, he's so he's so funny, like such a truly, truly funny man. And he's he's so smart. As you said, he's a writer. He writes amazing novels, in addition to writing amazing musicals like the one that that he wrote with me, Broadway Bounty Hunter. But he just there's just something about he's one of those actors that it's like all of these awesome things that he can do. And he's a great songwriter, too. And he's a great musician. They all, I think, inform his abilities as an actor. I think that he is such a great, generative artist that sometimes it's even he forgets just how brilliant he is as an interpretive artist.

And he can take material, whether it's words or songs or whatever. And he just he just makes it better. He just it's like he plums the depths of everything without having us see the work. It's like anything he looks at, he just immediately is going to go 10 layers deep. And then what you get is something that is so fully cooked, like the first time around. It's just it's just incredible. And yeah, and his performance of the song is is both heartbreaking and and funny and and really scary. It's all of those things. And they all coexist. And it's like those are things that should not work up against each other. And they just do. And it's because he's so good at finding the truth and the honesty and also the quirks of any character he plays.

[19:14] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah. Do you think also, you know, Lance is a writer. You're obviously a writer. Like, do you think that's similar for you when you sing something that you haven't written? Like if you're singing a musical theater song by someone else? Like, how do you think you come to that as a writer versus as someone who might be a performer solely?

[19:28] Joe Iconis: Yeah, I mean, I think it's like, you know, it's I think it's probably different for every well, it is different for every writer, because it's where your your writer brand and then your performative abilities meet. But yeah, I mean, for me, I'm always like, like singing the subtext, you know, I'm always I'm 100% lyric driven, like all the time. Whereas, you know, other writers who have better voices than I do probably look at things and they're like, oh, great, there's a there's a C and there's an E. And I know like, you know, they're just approaching in a different way. Or they're like, I'm going to tell the story of this through the music. And I'm always like, I'm going to tell the story of this through the lyric.

And part of that is because I'm not a I'm not a great singer. I'm a I'm a I think a very good performer, but I'm not a great singer. And so all of my stuff is like about the words and the character and the feeling. And where I think I when when stuff clicks with me when I perform it, I feel like it's, it's because I'm, I'm good at finding, finding the sort of more extreme underpinnings in, in a lyric or in a character that that might not seem to have that depth of, you know, whatever it is, anger or frustration or madness or something. I think that's where I kind of go to when I when I sing something and I or and I really like, I like the juxtaposition of those really intense sort of like, dirty, you know, inner thoughts and sort of light and charming outer thoughts.

[21:04] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Totally, totally. Yeah. Um, anything else about Norman?

[21:10] Joe Iconis: Um, some really fantastic sidebars on this episode. This is Yeah, I mean, tons of sidebars, which I mean, but that's like, you know, that's what Psycho is. Yeah, it goes like literally, it's one movie for 45 minutes, and then it takes a, it takes a left turn. And then it's literally another movie. It's a, you know, the protagonist of the first third of Psycho is different than the protagonist of the second two thirds. And it's and which is something that has been so inspiring to me. And also, it's like, it gets back to what we were talking about earlier, like all of these, the sort of twists that whole thing like that, you know, Psycho is a movie that I was obsessed with in high school and continue to be obsessed with.

And it's, and it's for that. It's that, that idea of like, you think you're watching a movie that's about this person, and it's actually not. And, and it is so thrilling to me. And I and and the thing that kills me is that I just I was looking at the I was listening to a podcast, because I do that now that we have a podcast. And, and the person was talking about how this movie called Razor's Edge, which I haven't seen, I'm going to watch. But she was like, you know, there's a twist. And it's once you know, the twist, it's the movie is never as good. Like if you watch it again, it doesn't hold up because it's just it's just about the twist. And there's lots of movies like that. And Psycho is not like that.

Like Psycho is it's I think it gets better when you know that there's going to be a major narrative switch. And that's I think when I'm writing songs like this, that's what when I'm trying to do. I'm I'm actively trying to make them re-listenable. And like, hopefully people will, will understand more about the song knowing knowing what's coming.

[22:45] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Yeah, it's also I don't even necessarily think people need to know what they're going to see in a musical or play before they see it. They just expect to because that's what they always have done.

[22:54] Joe Iconis: Right, right. So it's like if the expectation was ever reset by a show that managed to do that and be a big hit, you know, something would shift maybe.

[23:04] Joe Iconis: I think that what I want to do is I want to do a production of Mamma Mia, where I get permission to rewrite the ending. And at the end of my production of Mamma Mia, what's the name of the mom? Donna? Yeah. Donna would lose her mind and murder the those other two women.

[23:24] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: Okay. I think that you're gonna get a yes on that. I think licensing is gonna say absolutely.

[23:28] Joe Iconis: Yeah. And then the tagline could be Mamma Mia, you already know, you're gonna be scared of it.

[23:34] Jennifer Ashley Tepper: It would be called Mamma Mia Murders and it would be done like, get ready for the murder scene.

[23:37] Joe Iconis: Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, Norman.

[23:43] Joe Iconis: Hey, thanks so much for listening or watching to my podcast. Do me a favor and go to wherever you just listen to or watch this thing and subscribe or like or give us a great rating or review and then head to bpn.fm slash album to find out even more information about this podcast, more ways to watch, more ways to listen and check out my album, Album. Thanks so much for hanging out.