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[0:00] Gordon Cox: Welcome to Stagecraft, Variety's theatre podcast, bringing you backstage and behind the scenes with the stars, creators, and industry leaders behind Broadway's biggest hits. I'm your host, Gordon Cox. On this episode of Stagecraft, I'm talking to legendary theatre producers Steve Jones and Cheryl Philips about their sure-to-be-legendary new project, Avatar the Musical. Cheryl and Steve, thanks so much for joining me.

[0:30] Steve Jones: Well, thanks for having us, Gordon. I mean, I was so glad of you to call us. It wasn't unexpected. I mean, seeing the fact that we have a great show. The fact that you were nice enough to let Cheryl come along is just really, really nice of you.

[0:42] Cheryl Philips: Thank you, Gordon, for inviting us. It's wonderful to have someone with such integrity be interested in our little production.

[0:55] Steve Jones: Yeah, integrity. We like that word.

[0:58] Gordon Cox: Mm-hmm. You know, I wonder if we could start by just having you both tell us how you got involved in the project. And did you know right away that you wanted to produce something this epic, a show this epic?

[1:12] Cheryl Philips: Well, I was so happy to be working with these writers again and to know that they were creating something that was so extraordinary that people would flock to the theatre in droves to come and witness this telling of the story of what I call the blue people.

[1:27] Steve Jones: Which is great because it's yellow and black. But listen, what's really great is the fact that I knew. I knew we had a hit on our hands from the first moment that the concept came to us. And the writers wanted to work with me, love me, think I'm great, know my record. I mean, come on, my record.

[1:50] Cheryl Philips: Well, your record, quite frankly, Steve, is not exemplary. However, we are glad to have these writers on board because they are Tony Award winning writers. And we are Tony Award winning producers, although I don't know how Steve ever made that category.

[2:07] Steve Jones: Well, I have more than you, but that's not the point. The point is that we all have Tonys. And the point is that the writers, you know, listen, we are in 2021. We are in 2021 and we must have all perspectives. And so they wanted to bring in a lady and we were like, find one. And then Cheryl showed up. So we're all here and we're all bringing something wonderful to it. And listen, it's going to be a hit. People are going to love it.

[2:32] Cheryl Philips: People are going to love it. They're already buying tickets in droves. Although we're waiting for Steve's part of the contribution to the production monies. We understand that he's having a little trouble getting some of his people on board. But all the people that I have in my camp are ready, willing and able to put their money where their mouth is, where their mouths are, if you will. I just got off the plane off of Red Eye with having a meeting with Cameron and we spoke about how we can further push this idea of having this particular story told on stage. He's all for it. He's all in. And his money is where his mouth is.

[3:15] Steve Jones: Well, the funny thing when it comes, sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off there. When it comes to money, my money is being put into the one thing that this show needs, marketing. I mean, have you seen the posters in Times Square? I mean, we actually had flying banshees out there picking people up and bringing them to the theater. And since we're name dropping, I mean, everybody knows that when the original movie was presented, it was bought by this wonderful little company. You may have heard of it called Disney. And so I, of course, one of my dear, dear friends, Mr. Schumacher, we spoke to each other. He calls me Mr. Jones. I call him Mr. Schumacher. We talked about it and we are already working on not only putting this show on tour, but putting it in the parks where it belongs.

So not only were you able to see this on Broadway, but when you go to one of those amazing parks in Florida or Japan or in Hong Kong, you will be able to see this show. And you do realize that there'll be lawsuits abound if we dare to have people flying with banshees, flying around in the air with banshees. Are you mad? This is not the place, not the place. Gordon.

[4:31] Cheryl Philips: Well, I beg to differ. The people need to know what's going on. They need to know. Tell us actually, Cheryl, please. They need to know that this could be a really bad thing to have banshees flying around. Can you imagine your children? Would you put your children in the hands of a banshee flying around Times Square?

[4:46] Steve Jones: Oh, I absolutely don't think so.

[4:48] Cheryl Philips: Yes, I would. Yes, I would. And here's why, here's why. Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, you have sat through generation after generation of new spectaculars. It started with Oklahoma, the first time that we had opera brought to the musical theater stage. Opera is one thing, but pyrotechnics and flying banshees is totally something else. With J.C. Superstar, you had rock and roll. Then we flash forward, we flash forward to Rent, where they had microphones on their faces. And then we flash forward, I should say, sorry, we went to Phantom, where we had pyrotechnics on stage. Then we have Lion King. Wicked, wicked people are flying. Spider-Man, scratch that, don't talk about that.

[5:30] Steve Jones: Please don't talk about Spider-Man. The fact that we can now go, we can trace our theatrical steps from Phantom to the Harry Potter musical to Aladdin, which I had something to do with, by the way, and all the way to our show now. That's what we're talking about. So people flying, people being a part of it, that's what people want nowadays. It's not just sitting back. They want to be a part of the action and our banshees will make that happen.

[5:59] Cheryl Philips: Our banshees will bankrupt the production of this show. Banshees are known to have poisonous poop and they are known to have very sharp nails. And so I personally would not risk putting my loved ones in the hands of something that's that toxic.

[6:20] Steve Jones: We're not going to carry your loved ones. There's no way those banshees will get close to your loved ones. We're talking about the wonderful, normal families that come see a show.

[6:28] Cheryl Philips: Well, maybe then we should have all of your loved ones being carried around and flown around by banshees.

[6:34] Steve Jones: They already are. My limos are about to be replaced by just flying banshees. Trust me.

[6:38] Cheryl Philips: Oh, then I can't wait for them. I can't wait for them to pick you up and drop you in the middle of Central Park.

[6:45] Steve Jones: It's going to be fantastic.

[6:46] Cheryl Philips: In pieces.

[6:47] Steve Jones: Safely.

[6:48] Cheryl Philips: Yes.

[6:49] Gordon Cox: You know, all this discussion about what a spectacle this is going to be, you know, there's a lot of talk. You did mention Spider-Man Turn Off the Dark. And I feel like people in the community are talking about the fact that Avatar could replace Spider-Man Turn Off the Dark as the most expensive musical ever made. Is that true? And are you keeping, how hard is it to keep the budget under control for something?

[7:10] Steve Jones: You know, it's one of those things where you have to really be on your game and your people, your accountants, your managers, knowing where all the money is going, which is why.

[7:21] Cheryl Philips: You have to hope that you don't have someone like Steve Jones, who's been known to abscond with the funds.

[7:28] Steve Jones: Ladies and gentlemen, you and Gordon, and I say, ladies and gentlemen, and I use this, you know, loosely for, you know, this wonderful lady here. We, I had in my early career as a producer, a couple of moments. Now we all start off some places, certain things don't always go the way they are, go the way they should go. But over the past few years, I have had nothing, nothing but hits, asterisk, nothing but hits to be in the right place. And sure, you know, you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs. But listen, here's the thing, when it comes to Steve Jones, hit is what I get. Now, no disrespect to Cheryl, but Cheryl has had a hit. Most of them are mediocre things, which is why I brought her on board.

[8:18] Cheryl Philips: Uh, excuse me, but you were brought on board, my Cheryl Phillips. Let's get the information correct. Cheryl Phillips was here first.

[8:28] Steve Jones: I brought the writers, my dear. I brought the writers, and without the writers, you don't have a show.

[8:31] Cheryl Philips: But the writers knew they could not get Avatar without me.

[8:35] Steve Jones: That's not true.

[8:36] Cheryl Philips: I brought the director. I brought the director.

[8:38] Steve Jones: No, darling, you go-guarded yourself into this situation.

[8:42] Cheryl Philips: I brought the star.

[8:44] Steve Jones: Well, we'll see about that. I've been speaking to Cameron Diaz as well about replacing your star.

[8:49] Cheryl Philips: Well, you can talk to Cameron. Listen, the problem is we all know, and this is, this is, we should finally get this out of the way. We're finally good. Cameron and I had a little problem one time when we were trying to produce Gremlins for, for his wonderful London stage. And he didn't like the fact that I said, he wanted to bring in some puppeteer animatronic things. And I said, no, no, children, bring in children. Let's use children.

[9:18] Steve Jones: Yes, but you want children to be flown around with, on, with Banshees? I don't understand your logic in that case, Charles.

[9:25] Cheryl Philips: No, no, this is for Gremlins. And so he's still mad at me that our little deal fell through. But listen, I got-

[9:28] Steve Jones: Well, the deal fell through because you couldn't come up with the funding.

[9:32] Cheryl Philips: I had the funding. He didn't like-

[9:33] Steve Jones: You couldn't put your people together to get the funding, to get even a demonstration show.

[9:39] Cheryl Philips: That's not true. Cameron owns the theater. The fact is London is Cameron's town. So we had to move to New York. If we were in my home, we were in New York city, we wouldn't have had that problem.

[9:49] Steve Jones: Cam owns the UK and that's fine. So you can kick it with Cam. I'm going to come over here where the real theater is. That's what I said, where the real theater is, over here on Broadway.

[9:58] Cheryl Philips: But like I said, Gordon, the show's going to be an amazing spectacle. People are going to love it.

[10:01] Gordon Cox: Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit about the creative team you put in place, both the writers, Cheryl, that you mentioned and the cast that you mentioned. First of all, tell us about working with Bobby and Kay and what you feel like their music and lyrics really bring out of the story.

[10:21] Cheryl Philips: Bobby and Kay have a unique ability to assess out what's really important in a story and get the characters to display in full real time what is important, what's the important message in the show. They have a wonderful way with words and with music and together they make a great team. And I have every confidence that they will make this the spectacular show that it needs to be.

[10:51] Steve Jones: Cameron and Bobby are a great team. They know what they're doing. And we're looking forward to hearing and seeing the words, the music, the majesty and the magic of this show, as told by these two spectacular writers.

[11:12] Gordon Cox: And then you brought in Thomas Navarro to write the book. I understand.

[11:16] Cheryl Philips: Yes. Yes, I did. You see, I brought in Thomas because-

[11:18] Steve Jones: He brought in Thomas because they have history.

[11:22] Cheryl Philips: I brought in Thomas because when we first started working on the script, when Bobby and Kay started working on it, Bobby and Kay were having a little issues and the script wasn't that strong. The songs were good, but the story itself wasn't where it needed to be. So I brought in Thomas and Thomas fixed it. And now their little Trump variant is great. The three of them have come up with a great story and everybody's loving it.

[11:49] Steve Jones: But thanks to Thomas stepping in to doctor the script the way it needed to be doctored, sometimes you need to bring in help.

[11:56] Cheryl Philips: Thomas is there to doctor himself and to put a wedge between the writers, that is all.

[12:02] Steve Jones: There is no wedge between the writers if the writers put a wedge between themselves.

[12:06] Cheryl Philips: Thomas is trouble. He's trouble. He's really not that proficient.

[12:10] Steve Jones: Bobby is very happy with Thomas being there.

[12:12] Cheryl Philips: Oh, well, I'm sure Bobby is because they had history, as you and Tommy have had history. Tommy's been around, if you know what I mean.

[12:20] Steve Jones: Tommy's written some wonderful things. He's written some wonderful things, but none of them have charted on Billboard charts and none of them have Grammys or none of them have no—no, no Tommy. Tommy's just written some Pulitzer Prize-winning things. He's just written some great novels. He just—he just worked for companies like, I don't know, DC Comics. He's just—he's worked for some companies like, you know, just because you don't know what's going on in the world, right?

[12:52] Cheryl Philips: Children are looking at TV and video. Stepped in because he understood the world that we're trying to build of Avatar, and he helped Bobby and Kaye, and they are so grateful for you. They're not entirely happy with it. It's caused a lot of dissension. But anyway, Tommy's—Tommy's—he's maybe—I'm so glad that you're putting our family laundry all on public.

[13:11] Steve Jones: Well, honey, it's already public. It's already public. Everybody knows about you. What were you gonna say, Gordon?

[13:21] Gordon Cox: You know, I was just gonna change the subject to the cast.

[13:31] Steve Jones: Yes, I'm hearing he's the new Aaron Tveit. People say he said this point of discovery. This man is everything you want in a leading man. He's one of those guys that, you know, when you watch those movies about musicals or about auditions and they walk through the room and all of a sudden, like, birds start shining and stars appear, that's what happened when this man walked in the room. Even this one who can't even be moved by a set of abs was moved by this man.

[14:00] Cheryl Philips: Is that you?

[14:03] Steve Jones: You mean you?

[14:05] Cheryl Philips: Doesn't take a set of abs to move you, darling. We all know that Stavros is very talented and will be the star you're talking about. You can already pretty much give the Tony.

[14:12] Steve Jones: I agree with you, Steve, that Stavros is going to be a very important part of the success of the show. He was kind of overlooked by his girlfriend, and so we almost didn't have Stavros, but I'm very glad that it worked out that he was able to display his talent.

[14:31] Steve Jones: It was my decision to hire him. We were looking for a leading man, couldn't find one, and Stavros walked in and said, "That's the guy."

[14:40] Cheryl Philips: And also, that's what happens when you're the lead producer; you can make that decision.

[14:44] Steve Jones: Darling, you are not the lead producer. My name goes above yours.

[14:50] Cheryl Philips: No, it doesn't. Never, ever, ever. Should look at the poster.

[14:55] Steve Jones: Hmm. Well, then the posters will come down and it would be changed.

[14:58] Cheryl Philips: It will change the poster. Remember marketing? That's me. I did that. That's why—

[15:01] Steve Jones: Go ahead. Speaking of names on the poster, I feel like the biggest name on the poster, at least right now, is Emma-Olivia, of course. She's a great big Broadway star. What?

[15:10] Cheryl Philips: She is also sort of a legendary handful. How's it been going working with her?

[15:16] Steve Jones: You know, she's a very talented performer, and she can be a bit of a pill to work with, but we are working things out with her. She's very concerned that Stavros has gotten all this attention. But to be sure, the writers are going to give her plenty of work to do and plenty of star turns, so she shouldn't be worried about a thing.

[15:40] Cheryl Philips: Let's just say this: when the 11 o'clock number rolls around, you will never ever forget about the woman that we're talking about right now. The world already knows how great she is. She's already legendary.

[15:57] Steve Jones: Once that 11 o'clock number hits, you will put her in the same category as the Fosters, the LuPones. You will put her in the same category as the McDonald's, as LuShan's. You will put her in the same—in the category of someone like a Lillias White, for instance.

[16:18] Cheryl Philips: We never said that we would put her in Lillias White's category. That's a whole different thing. Lillias White is a frickin' legend. We're talking about everything from Disney to Tonys to television. You cannot put a person in the category with Lillias White.

[16:38] Steve Jones: But this is true.

[16:40] Cheryl Philips: Can I finally tell the story, however? She's a pill to work with. Cheryl brings up Lillias White every interview, and she's really—he's really upset because Cheryl tried to get Lillias for her show, and Lillias chose me. Lillias chose me.

[16:58] Steve Jones: And I've known each other for years.

[17:00] Cheryl Philips: Yes, she's my friend, and Cheryl and Lillias had a great relationship, and she's been a great friend to me for years.

[17:06] Steve Jones: And Cheryl and Lillias had an issue with a man. We won't discuss it.

[17:12] Cheryl Philips: Cheryl doesn't want to discuss it, and that's why Lillias doesn't do our shows. But she keeps trying to kiss up to Lillias to make Lillias feel good. Lillias is never gonna do your show, and you need to really just get over it.

[17:23] Steve Jones: You are really hilarious.

[17:27] Cheryl Philips: Okay, you're very, very, very well mistaken. Oh my God. Lillias White has nothing to do with this conversation. I'm just comparing—I did bring it up because I want you to know that the person that you're speaking of does not—it's not in the category of all of those people. She's good, but she's difficult to work with, and that becomes a problem when it's time to put the show on and to get it running consistently.

[17:53] Steve Jones: She's gonna show up.

[17:55] Cheryl Philips: She's gonna be there when the lights turn on. You will see her when the lights turn on; you will see our leading man, and when the lights turn off and the curtain comes down, you will see a standing ovation. Nothing but applause, and I guarantee you—I guarantee you every review will be positive.

[18:12] Steve Jones: Well, if you pay for them, they will be.

[18:17] Cheryl Philips: That's true. Yes, good. Speaking of opening night, which is what you get after—uh, which is where reviews come from, you have some pretty big plans for opening night, I don't—tell us about it. Sounds like you're transforming Times Square. Give us some details.

[18:28] Steve Jones: I am. You know, there's—I went to see the Cursed Child musical, and they had, you know, the first show ended, and they took us to this little, you know, hotel, and it was beautifully done. After the show, we went back to the same place, and it was magically changed between the first two shows. It was magically changed. I said, if you could do this with a building, we can do this with Times Square, and that's why we're planning on having a big parade all the way down from Duffy Square all the way down 42nd Street to celebrate this wonderful occasion of an opening night of a show that will be as legendary and long-lasting as Cats.

[19:18] Cheryl Philips: Very true, very true.

[19:20] Steve Jones: It's going—all the stars are coming. It's going to be great. We—like I said, we have—we have the banshees, we have a parade, we have a band, we have—you know, it's almost like, you know, when you go to the street fairs that are on Eighth Avenue? Just imagine that, but actually classy, you know, with real good food, not that crap they serve down there in this fried Oreo. We're gonna have real stuff. Real, real stuff. It's gonna be great.

[19:40] Cheryl Philips: I wonder, as we all look forward to that, I wonder if we could wrap up just by having you both tell me a little bit about why you think now is the right time for Avatar: The Musical and for the story it's telling and why it fits on Broadway right now in particular.

[19:55] Steve Jones: I think it fits on Broadway right now because people have been locked up under quarantine, locked into their homes and looking at Netflix or Hulu, and they're craving a live experience that will really titillate their senses. They are craving something that they are somewhat familiar with but that will enhance their understanding and their appreciation of live theater. We are going to give the people something so spectacular that they will never forget and that they will come back to see again and again, and we have all these plans to have different casts become different characters and then continue this show for a very long term to give the people what they need, which is live theater in front of live people with tricks.

[20:57] Cheryl Philips: Yes, with some animation. Yes, with some things that, you know, will be spun to make them wide-eyed.

[21:07] Steve Jones: Yes, we'll have some of those things, but we will have genuine, wonderful actors and performers to give the people what they need. They need live. They need life.

[21:17] Cheryl Philips: And also, I will, just to add to that, there is a part of our story that speaks to the underdog, you know, with what's gone on in 2020, with all the things that—all the different causes that have come through, with people protesting, with people feeling that they're not being heard from different sections of the world. This show does that. You know, our lead character is also going through that, is also fighting through that, trying to be heard, trying not to be misrepresented, trying to show that they not only have a voice, but they're a person and they need to be heard. And not only heard, but respected. And so when people who are going through what they're going through all of this time see this story, they're gonna say, "That's me." They're gonna say, "I feel that. I get where this is going."

[22:19] Steve Jones: And then when it's all said and done, when it's all said and done and the curtain comes down and the parade comes out and people see it, we have a grand marshal for the parade, and I couldn't think of anybody else better than the Tony Award-winning James Monroe Iglehart. He will be in a car riding down the street just waving and throwing stickers that say Avatar. We have these great stickers, the Avatar, and they're going to be great, and everybody's going to grab one. There's sunglasses with Avatar on them. There's going to be stuffed banshee animals like he's going to throw. They're going to be in the car. It's going to be fabulous. I'm telling you, this is going to be epic.

[22:59] Cheryl Philips: It will be epic. It's going to be a really great reopening of the experience that is theater, and with all the technology that we have at our fingertips, we're going to make this an unforgettable time.

[23:08] Steve Jones: And egotistically—egotistically, and I don't like to be egotistical.

[23:12] Cheryl Philips: Oh no, never.

[23:15] Steve Jones: I am really looking forward to the look on Jeffrey Seller's face with his mega-hit Hamilton when he finally feels what it's like to be number two.

[23:30] Cheryl Philips: Well, I'm not here to be revengeful, as some people are, but I am looking forward to pleasing the people and getting—

[23:41] Steve Jones: And that's right.

[23:44] Cheryl Philips: The people are happy; that's what matters, and that they see themselves in these characters.

[23:49] Steve Jones: Yes, it's very—look on Jeffrey's face.

[23:55] Gordon Cox: Well, I can't wait to see the show and the look on Jeffrey's face and whose name will be on top on the poster. Thank you both so much for being here.

[23:59] Cheryl Philips: Thank you.

[24:00] Steve Jones: Thank you very much.

[24:01] Gordon Cox: Have a great day, everyone.

[24:04] Cheryl Philips: You too. Bye-bye.

[24:10] Steve Jones: Talk to you later, Steve.

[24:12] Gordon Cox: That was Cheryl Philips and Steve Jones, the two producers who will bring Avatar: The Musical to Broadway if they don't kill each other first. You can find past episodes of Stagecraft and subscribe everywhere you listen to podcasts, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and the Broadway Podcast Network, which is a great place to find more theater for your ears. I'll be back soon with another new episode. Until then, find me on Twitter at GCoxVariety. Thanks for listening, and see you soon.