This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Justin Guarini: It is the mother of innovation. It is the mother of new forms is that discovery of something that doesn't exist. And in order for that to happen, you have got to be willing to let go of everything you've ever known. And that takes a lot of courage and it means that you might fall on your face. And so what, you know, like get back up and do it again. It's not over. Like, you know, it's that moment of like, you decide, you decide.

[0:31] Justin Guarini: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Audition Secrets. I'm Justin Guarini, and you are listening to the Behind the Scenes Podcast for nailing more auditions, booking more jobs, and having some great conversations with some really, really outstanding people in the entertainment business. My guest today is Michaela Murphy. She's a writer, a playwright, a storyteller, a teacher. She's also the director of education at the Bucks County Playhouse. She has a whole unbelievable list of credits. She has been featured on NPR, Off-Broadway, the Second Stage Theater, on the Moth Mainstage, New York City and National Tours, as well as the Moth Radio Hour and TEDx Conversations, the White House, all kinds of stuff.

Basically, we have a really wonderful conversation today. And some of the takeaways are, one, serving the story. What does that mean and why it's crucial? I love to say that our number one job as performers is to serve the story. It's not getting applause. It's not making money, although we do love to make money, and it's not getting all the trappings of fame. It's all about serving the story first and foremost. Another thing we talk about is story structure because Michaela is a phenomenal storyteller and a writer and someone who helps other writers write their stories. So we talk about story structure and the value of knowing the rules of how stories are created and then breaking them. Knowing things like that help us to be better script analyzers, help us to put our spin on the story based on our unique interpretation of the text or the story that we are telling.

We also talk about a horror story, forgetting the second line of our one-woman Off-Broadway show in front of a press audience. Have you ever had one of those moments where you're in this crucial situation and you just go up on your lines or something horribly goes wrong? Well, you're not alone and we get into that. Okay. So before we get to the interview, I do want to encourage you, as I always do, to go to auditionsecrets.com if you have not been there before. I have my book, Audition Secrets, the behind the scenes guidebook for nailing more auditions and booking more jobs there for you. And the digital copy of it is free to you. Free, 100% free, no strings attached. I want you to have this information.

It's fantastic. If you've been a listener of the show, you know what it's all about. I'm not going to bang on about it. And if you haven't been a listener to the show, please go to auditionsecrets.com and check it out. All right. Without further ado, here is the wonderful Michaela Murphy.

[3:01] Justin Guarini: The first thing I really want to ask you is, especially since you are a storyteller. What does the phrase serve the story mean to you?

[3:12] Michaela Murphy: I find that, you know, as a writer and as a storyteller and as a performer, and I learned this pretty early on because, you know, I've always been really a storyteller, is that when I focus on serving the story, I'm not taking into consideration factors about myself, you know, like I'm more honest as a writer, I'm more honest as a performer when I think about the story, not about like, you know, because I tell stories that are personal to me that are personal narrative. But when they become transformed through a storytelling process, they're not about me. They're not about like who I am as a person. It's about the story that I'm trying to tell. When I think about serving the story, it just gets away of all that chatter in that editor in my head that's like, you can't say that, you know, like, you know, will people be mad at me, you know, whatever.

But it also is useful as a writer because, and I actually have a kind of reputation, I can be a little relentless about how I'll cut things. Like if it's not working, I'll just cut it. And other dramaturges and playwrights, they're like, my God, you know, it's like, I have no problem killing my little darlings. It's like, if it's not serving the story, you know, it goes, I'll use it somewhere else, you know, there's more of where that came from, because if it's not serving the story, then, you know, what is it serving? And, um, and then usually what it's serving, you know, that makes me very uncomfortable. It's just like, it's serving some like ego part of myself. Like I thought some great line, you know, like I can't, you know, and it's like, if I find myself trying to make a great line work rather than make the story work, you know, then I'm like, what am I doing?

With a lot of my experience in breaking down a script, um, or a piece of music and a lot of my clients' experiences, I feel like I used to think, okay, I see these words on the page and I think about how I'm going to say them, which is very egocentric as opposed to what do they mean? What was the writer's intention and how does this line serve the story and or move the plot forward or move the, uh, the genesis of my character forward? You know, exactly. You know, and I, I learned it the hard way, you know, by like doing, you know, giving into my indulgences. But I also started to realize that the things that real, the performances that move me, the stories that move me, the teachers really who taught me this and who inspired me, you know, it's when, it's when the story's being served, um, to the, you know, really almost to the exclusion of almost everything else, it's like, you know, that those are the things that you're just are so powerful and, you know, it's like, you know, I get my ego served like other places, other way, whatever, you know, it's like, that's just really not what it's all about.

And, and I think, you know, there's this idea that like giving that up, you know, it's like, oh, you know, when I was a younger actress, it was about like being special and it's like, no, actually it's about being useful and, um, and yeah. And I really, you know, that's what I've learned and how much more gratifying that is to become a part of a story and a part of an experience rather than have it be about something that, you know, it's much bigger and much better than anything I could come up with on my own.

[6:12] Justin Guarini: Yeah, for sure. That's really great. That's a really great perspective being useful, you know, cause we, especially with the things that we see on the television and on our phones and on our other devices, you know, we see these stars that are out there and they're on the red carpet or they're being interviewed or they're doing all these really cool things, but at the end of the day, none of that would be possible if they didn't serve the story and were useful to the product that they come from.

[6:42] Michaela Murphy: It's interesting. Cause it's almost like, you know, the special part is like second generation. The first generation is about being useful. Cause like, you know, maybe, you know, the desire to feel special is so that be, so that we can become useful. You know what I mean? It's really, it's really like to become a part of something, to connect with an audience, you know, and that comes from really, for me, at least like, you know, when I apply what I, what I have to contribute toward in service of something much bigger than myself.

[7:10] Justin Guarini: Sure. Sure. That's a great perspective. Now, my private clients always joke with me because every time I begin to break down process with them of, you know, specifically a song at this point, I always say every good story, and this is something that we've learned in school that was drilled into our heads. Every good story has a beginning, a middle and an end, right? Like story 101, but I want my community to get a glimpse into the writer's mind. Um, so why don't we take a moment to step even further back than just the beginning, middle and end. And let's talk about the actual process of writing a story. I want my community to begin to think like writers and understand the beginning of the process so that they can better understand the clues that writers will leave behind in the material, in the process, so that at the end of that, they can better understand.

It's almost like having a Rosetta Stone, you know, and being able to decipher the codes that are in the actual script. And so take us back through your journey from concept to finished product that either you or someone else is going to have to bring to life.

[8:29] Michaela Murphy: You know, I think before I get into that part of that, I think that you bring up a really good point about like what we're taught about how it's, how it, how it goes or how it should go, beginning, middle, end, you know, so the implication being that the beginning is that where it starts. And I think, I think, you know, for a lot of writers, um, absolutely for me, it was almost like undoing that, that like idea that there's one way to do it. We pay attention to how I did it because I think, especially early on in my career, I, uh, I undervalued and I didn't pay attention to what like my, like, it sounds so pretentious to say like my process was, but like, like what I was doing to go around, but you know, cause I felt like this isn't, this isn't the way you're supposed to do it.

Right. Like it's supposed to be this way. And then realizing the value of it and starting to recognize that this is the way that I do it. And, uh, and then hearing from other writers, it's like, oh, like there's some, like there was as many different processes and ways to do it as there are people who are doing it. But I think that the undoing, you know, this idea that there's a way and that when we learn in school, like that this is the way or, or, you know, get kind of separating or pull it, detaching from that idea of a beginning, middle, and I, because you know, the outcome, the, the end product has a beginning, middle, and I, but for me, actually, it starts with the ending. The ending will just come to me.

And when an ending comes to me, I know that there's, I, I suddenly see the whole story. Um, and sometimes it's kind of, it's exciting because sometimes I see something that I never saw before, you know, like an end and it happens in the weirdest, I can be walking down the street or something and it just suddenly it's like, it'll just go through my mind. Huh. And then I just see the story. It's like, Oh my God. And then it's like, I've got to get, it's, it's almost like, not only is there suddenly a story, it's like an insistent child. Like I've got to like, get it out of me. It's like, I'm like, all right, all right, all right. You know? And then I just have to like, kind of like get it all out.

And then it's just all there. And I realized over time that a lot of the stories that, you know, it seems like, Oh, I just sat down and wrote something at five minutes, which is completely not true. That's like the last part of it is when I actually write it down. It's something that has been, you know, working inside of me sometimes for years and that when the ending lands and it just comes to me, like, that's when I know that it's, it's time, it's, it's time, it's time to sit down.

[11:01] Michaela Murphy: I've heard it described. I forget what writer said it, that she would be out and she might be putting some clothes on the line or something like that, or out doing some work in the yard. And she said it would feel like a storm was coming and the wind. And she had to go as soon as she had that, that spark, whatever you want to call it, she had to go immediately into the house and do it because if not, it would have been like some sort of hurricane and just bowled her over. She had to get absolutely. I, that really, I totally get that. That's what it feels like. It's just like overwhelming, overwhelming need to tell the story. It's a wild and, or just like get it out. Like, you know, I had this thing happen a couple of years ago where I was working on a story for a show that I was doing in New York and, um, and I had worked it all out and like, it was like, you know, like say tomorrow was the day I was going to do it the night before. I suddenly was just had this over, I was like, Oh my gosh, I've got, I was trying to rehearse some work on the story I was planning to do, and I really.

[12:00] Michaela Murphy: I was so distracted by this other thing that I had to actually just, I was like, all right, I'm just going to get this out and then I'll work on it later. And it came out of me and it was like, this has never happened to me before or since, but it was like, it was all there. I ended up performing that story and it was funny because they were like, you're what? And I was like, I know I'm out of my mind, but you know what? It's, I think it's kind of done. And it just, and I think that, you know, the process of working on that other story was what kind of, I don't know, like it just got this other thing together. And it really was like I couldn't get anything. I couldn't focus on anything else until I sat down and wrote it.

[12:39] Justin Guarini: Yeah. That's so interesting. And I want to go back to something when you talk about the process being different. When I say beginning and middle and end for people, I know that that's a framework that a lot of people know and that that works for people. But I kind of feel like what you're saying, what I'm hearing from what you're saying is that yes, there is the concept of from the actor's point of view, there's the story has a beginning, middle and end. And even from a writer's point of view, yes, that can be a way that those things happen, but it's almost like construction. For example, you're building a building, you know, there are certain codes and regulations that have to be, you know, the studs have to be so far apart.

They have to be this made of that, but every facade, every room, every, everything looks different in every single building. So I really love that, you know, you can take the framework of beginning, middle and end, or you can take the framework of the processes that, you know, either actors are taught or writers are taught in school, learn them and then bend or just completely break them.

[13:43] Michaela Murphy: Yeah. Because you know, it's like, you know, cause what makes, you know, the structure is, is still there. Like it wouldn't work if it wasn't. And where structure really helps me is when there's a problem, you know, I can usually identify where the, and especially when I work with other people or, you know, the coach or anything like that, I can usually identify where the problem is because, because it's usually usually structural and it's usually manifesting in somewhere else. But it's the structure that's, that's kind of making that moment wonky. It's like that moment would work if we work over like if the living room's wonky because of what's happening in the kitchen.

[14:21] Justin Guarini: Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's, it's wild. But that's like, when I say that I can see it when I, when the ending comes to me, what I'm really seeing is the structure. I'm seeing the beginning, I'm seeing the middle and I'm seeing how it ends.

[14:32] Michaela Murphy: For sure. But I love that. I, I, you know, I, it would be interesting. I've never tried it. It'd be interesting to go to the end of a scene or the end of a song and read from there back. There's a reason why the character sings it's because they must sing because there's a moment that happens that they've got to express some sort of emotion. They've got to make a decision. They've got to make a change. They've got to move forward or backwards. They've got to go somewhere. And so that the song itself and the journey and the lyrics and everything else move a character from point A to point B and you got to go somewhere. And, and, and there's so many little things in between that. But you know, understanding that beginning, middle and understanding process, understanding how to take that process, you know, start at the beginning and end at the end of the song and maybe flip that on its head might be a really interesting way for people to break some of the habits that they have when they're analyzing songs.

[15:35] Michaela Murphy: Oh, I just worked with someone yesterday and he was recommending this book to me on back. It's called backwards forward. I don't know who wrote it. I should look it up. And it's about exactly that.

[15:45] Justin Guarini: Wow.

[15:46] Michaela Murphy: It's about, you know, doing, you know, an analysis of a song or a script or, you know, from backwards and forwards so that you can see where you're going and how you're getting there. And then if you go, you know, from the back, it's like, here we are now, how do we get here?

[16:00] Justin Guarini: Yeah. That's really cool.

[16:04] Michaela Murphy: I actually think that's, you know, it's come up twice in 24 hours. I'm like the universe. I think I should, I should look at that too. Okay. So we've talked about the actual story process. What I like to find out from the people that I speak to is about a different kind of process. And that's the process of going on stage. Do you have any sort of rituals? How do you prepare yourself to go from like just hanging out to being on a stage with lights on you and facing whatever size audience? And you've been in front of some pretty big audiences.

[16:39] Michaela Murphy: That's such a funny question to me because, you know, it really goes back to your original question. You know, I, I've kind of done it all, you know, like I've spent weeks in a high state of anxiety about a performance, you know, especially when I was younger, you know, I have like thrown up, you know, it's like, I can't, this is not sustainable. Like, what am I, you know, the minute I walk on stage, it's all fine. I kind of paid more attention to that moment. You know, it's like, so why did, why is this, why is this different? And it really is about because I have a job to do and it's, and it is about serving the story. And when I remind myself that that is why I'm here. And that it's, it's just, it's just not about whether I fail or succeed. It's not about whether I, you know, it's like, if I started the story, like the rest of that is just like such a non thing. That's a victory.

[17:28] Justin Guarini: Yeah. It's like that, you know? And so, you know, I, the ritual that I do is I remind myself that like, you know, that I want to be present to experience what's actually happening and experience the audience because, you know, here's the other thing that started happening to me. And this took me years to get to this point, but it's really, you know, really was the game changer for me was when I really let the audience start really keyed into my audience and listen to them. It's almost like they're telling the story with me. You know, it's like they tell me how to tell the story. So it's a story sort of happening in that space between us. Um, and like, I can't tell it without that, you know, otherwise it's just like me hanging out in my living room, you know, like, and that that's really, you know, and it's that unknown that I think what, you know, used to like incite all this anxiety and fear was that it's an unknowable thing.

You, you can't possibly know how it's going to go until you're in the moment. And, and you know, to be present in that moment is such an exhilarating thing. And to, you know, and I remember it was like this amazing experience to just not know and, and listen to them. And then it really was like, it was almost like an out of body thing. Like, I don't even, I didn't, I couldn't even tell you what I said or did. We did it together. And it really was this amazing thing.

[18:42] Justin Guarini: So tell me, do you have, because when, when I think of listening to the audience, there's got to be a balance there because some people would take the idea of listening to the audience and it becomes a self-conscious sort of mechanism. What are some of the clues or cues that you look for or listen for? And how do you listen to an audience and tell the story with them? Because our audiences can be like another cast member, right? How do you, how do you strike the balance between listening to them, but making sure that you don't tip over into, I'm waiting for laughter or I'm waiting for this, or if I don't get this, I don't get that. How do you keep that balance?

[19:22] Michaela Murphy: You know, it really is a balance. It's a good, it's a really good word because, because, you know, I have like the mastery over the story. Like I know the story I'm going to tell them. I have an idea, you know, and I not even more than an idea. I know the beats that I need to reach. You know, I know where this is going. I know, you know, but like how high I take it. And like what the pacing is, it's probably has more to do with the audience and the bigger the audience, you know, certainly the harder, the harder. And that's like really where technique comes into it. And I'm sure you've had the same experience. The best way I can describe it. It's like having a big mind. It's like, I'm thinking about the whole thing, you know, this whole space in front of me.

But I'm not thinking of it as being big. I'm thinking of it as being very personal and, and, and like as one, I sound so weird, but, but sort of like just, there's like a stillness about it. It's like a stillness within me. It's like, I'm not listening to what's hot, you know, my head, I'm not thinking. I'm, I'm, it's like being present. So like, it's about, I guess what I'm really listening for is the timing. Like, that's really it. Like, you know, they're not going to, I know what I'm going to say, you know, I might be inspired to say something else. And that happens in that space all the time where I'm like, Oh, by the way, let me just, I'll go off book and just kind of come up with something, you know, but it's really because it comes from them though.

It's like, I'm listening, I'm listening. And, and I've had, you know, I've had this experience, you know, for about the last 15 years working with private clients. And I started to realize that really that if there is like a, a specific gift around storytelling, it's more about, I think what, what it really is is that I'm a really good listener. And, you know, which is such a weird paradox. It's not so much about telling, it's about how I listen.

[21:14] Justin Guarini: Well, it's a conversation. It's a dialogue. You know, whether you're doing what you do, storytelling on stage or coaching private clients or helping CEOs do what it is that they need to do in the space of delivering information. It's a dialogue. And it's no different for performers because when we walk into an audition room or when we're on a stage, that's a dialogue with our audience, 100%. And so being able to listen, being able to, like we said, remove that ego, remember that, okay, this is an intimate space, whether I, you know, I performed at the Muny in St. Louis, which is like 11,000 people in this massive outdoor theater. And yet, you know, we have these huge stages where literally you have to run across this stage in order to be able to do your exits and, or make a, God forbid you'd have to make a cross because this thing is like a football field.

But there is an intimacy that comes with coming to the front of the stage. And even though the people up top can only, you know, you look like that big to them, there is a way, like you said, with technique, when you remember that it's a dialogue, when you remember that you are there to serve the story and be present in the moment, that you can make that 11,000 space. And I'm sure you felt the same way. You make that huge space feel like it is a living room.

[22:35] Michaela Murphy: The question I like to ask performers is, have you ever walked out of an audition room and said something to yourself like this? What just happened? That was terrible. I feel so bad for the people that are in the audience right now. That was terrible. I feel so unbelievably confused right now. Well, believe me, I have walked out of audition rooms and felt the same exact way. And one day I just got tired of it and I started doing research, talking to my coaches and asking myself better questions and finding a better way of going about auditioning and trying to make it fun. And guess what? I found success. And then I started sharing that knowledge with my friends and some students and they found success in their auditions and in their careers.

And so what I want to tell you today is I am opening up a limited, a number of slots for private one-on-one online coaching with me. That's right. You can go to auditionsecrets.com, click a few buttons and then schedule some time to have one-on-one private coaching with me where I share my wisdom, my knowledge, and I tailor it specifically for your needs. We break down your audition, the mindset of auditioning, and we address and correct your biggest concerns around auditioning. And then we go and we work on the song portion of your audition together. We work to make the material shine, to make.

[24:00] Justin Guarini: You shine with my signature technique called the Triple Threat Technique, where we break it down, we dissect the material, we connect you to the material, and then we project the material together to make it just shine, to make you look awesome, to make you feel awesome. It's 60 minutes of fun, growth, and just an awesome time. And I want to get you results. And I've gotten results for some other people. Jenna Propado, Mia's mom, said, "My daughter got a bigger part than what she auditioned for. Every session brought more and more value. My daughter found Justin exciting and exuberant. Everything was valuable and fun. She got a bigger part than what she auditioned for." Or there was my other student, Leandra Hill, who said, "Great audition guidance.

I'd work with Justin again and again. Rather than highlight my weaknesses, Justin gave me the tools to address them. Being coached by him is like working with your favorite mentor. He's a great communicator, efficient and kind. I'd work with him again and again." And you know what? I'm just so grateful to Leandra and to Jenna and to Mia. I love, love, love coaching. I love seeing the light bulb go on above students' heads. And I would love to have the honor and the opportunity of coaching you through your next audition and any audition you want me to coach you for.

[25:18] Michaela Murphy: You know, and to go back to your original question, because as we're talking, there are things that, you know, I'm usually pretty quiet, you know, which is amazing for me. Like before, you know, it's like I'm not, I'm not like obsessing about what I'm going to do, but there's like a stillness to it. It's like a reverence. It's like, I don't want to like, I don't want to create a lot of chaos in my head because I know that there's something that I'm about to do. And the nervousness I feel really feels more like an anticipation now. It's not something that's an uncomfortable feeling. You know, and I have a lot of trust, you know, that I've certainly earned over time that I do know what I'm doing, you know, that it's going to be that no matter what happens, like sometimes it's almost like, let's see how this goes, you know, and that kind of excites me.

And I think one of the things that really, really taught me this is working with kids, which is why I love working with kids because working, you know, when I first started out, you know, when I was a younger actor in my twenties, when I first started working, I wrote these shows for kids and I toured them all over the United States. And in some cases, I performed for like 5,000 kids, you know, like, man, it was nuts. Um, yeah. And exactly. And it was like working with that audience is really where I talk about technique. That's where I really acquired so much skill in listening and in being able to, um, to, you know, to get, not only get their attention, but like to activate their attention for them to be present, you know, and do it through a story that I was telling, like, I didn't stop the show and be like, you know, you know, I was like, and it really was the more I focused on the story, the more it happened. And that, that's really like where I learned that was in working with kids. And it really is a tough audience. I feel like if you can do that, you can do anything.

[27:07] Justin Guarini: Sure. Sure. That's, it's interesting that you bring up working with kids because it really truly is, they are wonderful. And as wonderful as they are, they're extremely challenging because you have to keep their attention, which is like, I mean, look, attention span throughout the years has slowly been diminishing, but now you talk about in the age where we have phones. And then even with my little kids, I have a six year old and almost eight year old. And I mean, like, sometimes you gotta be like, "Hey, Hey, hello. Hello." I mean, right before I did American Idol in 2002, I worked for this bar and bat mitzvah company, like a DJ company. And so we would go out and we would dance and we'd do all these things. And like, we were like the party pumpers.

[27:49] Michaela Murphy: Yeah, totally.

[27:50] Justin Guarini: And we dealt with, and it was just, maybe it was three max, three dancers on the job. There's one DJ, three dancers. And we managed the kids for the party so that the adults didn't have to be, you know, because they'd spend a ton of money on this thing. And they had a great time and got dancing and got out on stage.

[28:08] Michaela Murphy: Exactly.

[28:09] Justin Guarini: And at 13, it's like the hardest possible age. Yeah.

[28:11] Michaela Murphy: And that was the, and that's it. You nailed it right on the head. If we, if we could impress, keep the attention of and entertain 13 year olds, we could do anything.

[28:23] Justin Guarini: Done, right?

[28:24] Michaela Murphy: And it's such a great proving ground.

[28:25] Justin Guarini: It really is, you know, like, you know, eighth grade. Oh, like I love eighth grade, you know, because like, you know, they, they really like, they tell me if a story's working, because if it's not working, like they're gone, you know, and like,

[28:36] Michaela Murphy: Right away, yeah.

[28:37] Justin Guarini: You know, notes yourself, look at that moment, because obviously there's a problem.

[28:42] Michaela Murphy: Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Okay. So that might be something interesting for people listening to this and watching this to try. Maybe try finding a place where you can work with kids because they're also so forgiving. They're also really forgiving.

[28:54] Justin Guarini: You are. And not only that, though, like when you do have that audience wrapped, literally in the palm of your hand, it is an amazing feeling. It's like you can do anything. It's just, you really can see what you can do. Like in those moments, it's a beautiful thing. And the other thing that I was reminded of is that I once was asked, you know, it was the very first moth benefit. This was years ago. They started in New York City. It's a storytelling show where they ask, you know, I have real people, real stories from like all, you know, all walks of life, really interesting people or, you know, just people who have interesting things they have stories about. And it's become really popular. And there are like satellite moths, like in all cities around the world, they do slams.

It's become a very big organization and it's a wonderful organization. And it's really dedicated to the craft of storytelling. And they started in New York City. And I was really lucky. Like right when they started, I had a show that was off Broadway, a solo show that I wrote and written. And they came and they asked me to come and tell a story. And I have a couple of stories that became very, very popular. And so they asked me to do, to tell one of those stories. It's this baseball story at their first benefit and this benefit. And it was, I really was so freaked out because it was like Buck Henry, George Clinton, Mira Nair, Philip Kurevich. I just thought like, what, like, you know, like, what are they talking about?

Like, you know, why, why? And I was really, I was really scared. That was one of the most nervous experiences I ever had. I really felt like, why am I here? There's been some horrible mistake. And, and then they asked me to go first. And it was this like big, huge benefit. And, and I really was like freaked out. And I remember I was, I was backstage and suddenly, and this was like such a gift. I, I'll never forget it because it really saved me. It occurred to me that my job was to lead the stage great for the next person. And when I thought, I was like, I can do that. Like I can, that I can do. Cause I have this thing, like, you know, I'm very happy. I can be very generous to other people, not so much to myself.

But I was, oh yes. Like, yes, I can definitely do that. And it really saved me because that's what I thought about. And it was an incredible, incredible experience. I really hit it out of the park. And, and it really was because I wasn't thinking about me. I was thinking about not only how to serve my story, but how to serve my fellow storytellers.

[31:22] Justin Guarini: Nice. And that's really a wonderful giving perspective and a giving choice. You mentioned how you were nervous and going a little bit further back in the interview, you talked about how your nerves changed into anticipation. And it was because of time and the doing of it, right? The experience that you had believing and trust in yourself, but when did you really start to feel the, the shift from nerves? Cause what I, what I really like to help my network and the clients that I serve with is trying to find different ways, not to, to push down nerves and to try and stuff those things in because it's like, it becomes like a pressure cooker at that point, but how to change or to transmute or to use that energy to serve your performance or your audition or whatever it is.

[32:14] Michaela Murphy: You know, that's such a great question. And I also think that, you know, the people that I get to work with, you know, and coach really helped me exactly with that. So, and it really was like, you know, I really wanted to like, like what, what, what is, what is driving this nervousness? And a lot of it was fear. It was fear of failing, fear of, of, you know, being seen as a failure. You know, so, and then I, when I, when I kind of realized that it was like, well, wait a minute, you know, like, like, like what would contribute to that? You know, like a lack of preparation perhaps, or those things. And I think that there was this, because of that and there, you know, and part of it too, is just, you know, the equal odds rule, the more I did it, the more I started to really like focus on this, you know, and it was also like kind of a willingness to fail, if it makes sense, you know, like, it's like, it's going to be okay, you know.

And like that generosity, I feel like if I watch somebody else, you know, it's like, you know, it's okay. And I did have this moment where I, I was doing this thing and I tried something and it didn't work. And I remember like my agent was there and I walked off stage and everybody was like, how are you? And I was like really excited because, because I knew what was going to work. Like, because it failed, I was like, oh my God, I got it. I got it. I was kind of like, oh yeah, I know that sucks, but I gotta go home. I gotta, I gotta go write this out, you know? And so I remember that. I was like, oh, like, you know, my big fear actually ended up being this huge, huge gain. And that, and I think where it really, really shifted for me was like into that anticipation was, I guess, like a willingness, a willingness to fail.

Like, it's like, you know, it's going to be all right, you know, especially if I get right back up and do it again. And also this idea that, you know, that, that tamping down of fear, it's like, okay, you know, like that, that becomes such a waste of time. It's like, you know, you can come with me, but you're not the star of the show. Like, that's how I kind of think of that.

[34:15] Justin Guarini: You can totally be freaked out. You know, I'll even like talk about it. Actually. I'll even give you a little cameo, but you're just not going to run it because you really just don't have what it takes to run it.

[34:28] Michaela Murphy: Yes. What a great perspective.

[34:28] Justin Guarini: And that kind of like, that kind of shifted it. Cause it was like, you know, I was like, all right, so I'm not, now I'm not actively trying to like get rid of it. I'm trying to like engage it. And, you know, and then also just like the experience, experience, experience, you know, like really started, like, what would it look like if I actually started to become, you know, my own champion and like, you know, get behind the fact that I actually do know what, you know, that what I'm doing, like, I have a lot of experience in this and I'm compelled by it. And, and that that's what I'm there to find out. And it's okay if it doesn't work, because I'll find, I'll realize what will work and it'll be all right.

[35:05] Michaela Murphy: Yeah. Excellent. That's such a wonderful perspective. I love the idea of saying, okay, instead of denying your feelings, being like, yeah, come on, like taking it by the hand and say, well, come on, I'll lead you. You can go sit over there in the corner while, while mama does her work.

[35:22] Justin Guarini: You know, what's the real irony was, you know, I have friends who call me to ask me to do that. Like, you know, can you talk me off the ledge? And I'm really good at myself. I'm like, you know, can I please, I'm begging you, Michaela, like please show some compassion this way. And, and I started, you know, thinking like, what would it be like if I applied, like, you know, these pearls of wisdom I give to everybody else towards my own work and everything that changed it, you know, and, and, you know, like some of the greatest moments I've ever had of those moments of being alive when I actually had, you know, I don't know what to do. You know, most people aren't willing to be bad at something long enough to get good at it. That is so.

[36:32] Michaela Murphy: You decide. You decide. You decide how this is going to go. Is this going to be fun? Are you going to have this great moment of discovery? Or are you going to use this as a tool to beat yourself up with, which is such a frigging waste of time because you're missing the message. You're missing the gift. That's why I go up on stage to see what happens.

[36:55] Justin Guarini: Yeah, that's great. That's great. And 99 point whatever percent of people will take that failure or that mistake or whatever you want to call it, and they will use it as an excuse to back away from what could potentially be a huge leap forward in their growth, a huge leap forward in the possibility for them to create success for themselves. That's why I think it's really a cool time to be teaching how to fail, how to fail faster, like redefining and demystifying or whatever, like diffusing this idea that failure is an end game. It is an end game of something, but it's the beginning game of something really exciting. It's the indicator that that doesn't work for you anymore, and that's a great thing.

[37:47] Michaela Murphy: Yeah, that's a beautiful thing. Now, speaking of failure, when you have gone on stage or if you have ever auditioned, I love to get people's horror stories. Have you ever had a moment on stage when you're telling your own story or somebody else's story or in an audition or whatever, where something has gone so significantly wrong that for a moment you think, oh my God, what am I going to do? Have you had one of those moments?

[38:14] Michaela Murphy: Oh my God, I have had one of those moments almost every time. I do have a funny story. When I had my off-Broadway show, which is at Second Stage, and there was press week, and it's like New York Times and blah, blah, blah. It's a solo show. Yeah, nowhere to run, nowhere to hide. I'm looking right at the audience. Here I am trying to connect with them. They're all sitting there with, this is before Tab, but they're all sitting there with notepads and pens in the front row. That notion of people will be judging me, it's like, yes, they will be judging you, and what they decide will determine the success of the show. There's no getting around it. I had my game head on. It's press week, so it begins, we have a Tuesday night performance.

It's going to go all the way through to opening at the end of the week. It's Tuesday's performance. I get up on stage. I say the first line of the show, and then I just went up. I had no idea. No idea what came next. My agent is sitting there, and I see everybody just sitting there. I breathe, and it was almost like this willful part of myself I could feel. It was like, I'm not letting you know what it is. I just stood there, and I was like, and it wasn't coming. It went past that theater time of she's—

[39:30] Justin Guarini: Everyone's clenching.

[39:31] Michaela Murphy: Yeah. I did the only thing I could do. I just started laughing, and I said, oh my gosh, I totally forgot the next line, which is pretty weird because I wrote the play, and everybody laughed. Then I had it, and I was like, oh, I know, and then I went on. Then I went on to have the best shows. That was one of the best shows I ever had because it was like, well, I just committed basically career suicide. Now, we only can go up. I felt like the worst thing had happened. I was like, well, that's done. I just had a great time. The show got great reviews. Actually, God knows what happened, but it just totally worked. Now, when it happens, I just breathe, and it comes to me much quicker. I don't have the same fears that I had when I was younger.

They really have definitely shifted. You made me think of this because I was like, what shifted? I think I shifted in my life. I went through a really serious illness about 20 years ago where I almost died, and I ended up not dying. After that, really, the rest is a luxury. It was like this weird—I don't worry about things the way I used to. I still worry about things, but not the way that I used to. It really is all a gift. It's like I'm lucky to have such problems. It's not that they don't mean anything to me. They just don't mean more than they should.

[41:04] Michaela Murphy: Yeah, so really, that illness. It's so funny because there are those moments where you think it's a failure or a mistake, or there are these illnesses. For me, it was working really, really hard for this huge Broadway show. The people made me come in six times, and they put me through all my paces. I had to learn 20 songs and all this time. Then at the end of it, they were like, no. They walked away. I was like, wait, why not? I can deal with no, but why not? It's those moments of failure, those moments of quote-unquote failure, those big things that happen in our lives that tend to shift our perspective and say, okay, what's really important? What really matters to me here? Is this it? Is this my life? Whenever I have left the terms of my success, or how I'm doing, or my worth up to other people, that I've given away all of my power. That's awards and recognition.

[42:12] Justin Guarini: Wait, wait, wait. Say that again. Say it again. Just please say it again.

[42:15] Michaela Murphy: Whenever it's up to someone else to assign me an award, or a grade, or praise, or recognition, or whatever, I've given away all of my power. It will never be enough, let's be real. It could never possibly be enough because what I've denied is I've really denied myself the opportunity. When I said, do you decide? I had this great agent who said to me, no one will ever know what it took for you to do this. No one will ever know the challenges that you championed on your own behalf to bring something to life. If someone else doesn't recognize it, which is absolutely possible, does that deny the experience? Leave some for yourself. You decide and you give it to yourself. If you don't give it to yourself, that's the cake.

The rest is the icing. That, to me, is what creates a career of longevity and not a career of rejection and wanting. It's self-sustaining. You're an artist. There's something you're expressing. You've got to be there for yourself and be your own champion.

[43:21] Justin Guarini: Absolutely.

[43:24] Michaela Murphy: It is like just what you said. Why am I doing this? Am I doing this for praise, or I should just go buy some gold stickers? It's easier.

[43:31] Justin Guarini: It's much easier. You can give yourself all the gold stickers you want. It's so funny that it all comes back around to that first question I asked. We're serving the story. When we really take that focus off of ourselves, off of getting applause or awards or gold stars or whatever you want to call it, people, fans, whatever it is, when you take that and you put the energy on serving the story, and through service of the story, you really, truly find out more about yourself. Through really delving into the experiences of a character and someone else, you really end up finding out so much about yourself and what does and doesn't resonate, and you begin to become a stronger person, a more defined person.

If you can keep that up over time, the things that plagued us in the beginning, the nerves, the instability, the imposter syndrome feeling ends up, the why am I at the head of this column of George Plimpton and all those other people that you're talking about, those things go away, and it just becomes, okay, here's what I got to show. I'm proud of it. If you want to get on board, great. If you don't, hey, I love you. Have a Coke and a smile. I'll talk to you soon.

[44:54] Michaela Murphy: It puts you more in a position to be generous and have generosity towards the decisions that most likely have nothing to do with you personally about why you are maybe not the person to serve the story at this time. It makes me have more compassion. Also, instead of there's nothing in that black bag for me, it's like there's another black bag with something in it for me. If I keep obsessing about that other one, it's really, truly a waste of time. I want to ask you one last question. I love asking people this question because you get all kinds of interesting answers. What is the one thing that you wish every musical theater performer who's trying to make it to the top of the mountain they call success, what is it that you wish they knew?

[45:47] Michaela Murphy: Maybe it does circle back to what we've been talking about. I wish they knew how much personal agency they had. A career isn't something you're given. It's something you make. It's something that you strive for but that you have so much more power over. It's not something that's going to happen to you. You make it happen. I think you make it by being generous and being useful towards the story, towards your fellows, and with great compassion and heart. It'll come back to you a million fold. I wish people knew that when they put that out on stage, we can feel it as an audience and see the beauty of that. There's nothing better than that. It might not get the recognition that it deserves, but that's not really what matters. What matters is that moment that we shared where there was a real truth being revealed. That's amazing.

[46:59] Justin Guarini: Well, that's a wonderful way to end this interview. Thank you so very much for your time. I really appreciate it. There is so much. We could pull out so much great stuff. We could talk forever about this. This is all I think about, you know?

[47:11] Michaela Murphy: Yeah, well, it's great. I really would love to have you come back and come into the network and talk more about drilling down into some of the things that we've discussed because I know you have a lot of experience and just so much. You love to teach. I cannot wait to just kind of dig into your mind and see what other wonderful nuggets there are there. Thank you very much for your time.

[47:34] Michaela Murphy: Thank you so, so much for asking me. This is such a pleasure. It's such a pleasure. You're pulling out of me. I'm like, I don't know what I think about that, but I know I've thought about it for years. Thank you so much and good luck. This is fantastic. Thank you very much.

[47:47] Justin Guarini: Bye.

[47:48] Michaela Murphy: Bye.