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[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Backstage Pass, we're world class, with even more in store. Get your Backstage Pass, master class, with even more in store.

[0:22] Pauls Macs: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to give you an inclusive look behind the scenes.

[0:28] Pauls Macs: We're interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time.

[0:33] Pauls Macs: This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:34] Pauls Macs: Get your Backstage Pass. Get your Backstage Pass.

[0:41] Teresa Attridge: Hello, everyone. Hello, Barnacles. Welcome to another episode of Backstage Pass.

[0:50] Teresa Attridge: I have a feeling we're about to make some very wonderful memories today.

[0:53] Teresa Attridge: In fact, it's more than just a memory because this podcast will live on the Internet forever.

[0:58] Teresa Attridge: And on that note, we have Cheryl Stern and Bettina Covo, the team behind Rita: More Than a Memory with us today.

[1:04] Teresa Attridge: Cheryl, Bettina, welcome to the show.

[1:06] Cheryl Stern: Hi, hi, hi. Thank you. We're so happy to be here.

[1:09] Bettina Covo: Hello. Yes, thank you for having us. We're very honored.

[1:12] Cheryl Stern: Oh, my God. We are honored. You have no idea.

[1:15] Cheryl Stern: We really love reviewing your materials.

[1:17] Cheryl Stern: I've been just sort of listening to the music for the past day, just being like, oh, my God, it's so soft and soulful.

[1:23] Cheryl Stern: My guts are on the floor, but they're displayed beautifully.

[1:26] Cheryl Stern: You know, Bettina is quite the composer.

[1:30] Bettina Covo: Oh, my God. Yeah. These arrangements are gorgeous and we're going to get into it.

[1:34] Bettina Covo: Get into it. Beautiful. Thank you so much.

[1:37] Bettina Covo: The music is so evocative.

[1:39] Bettina Covo: I definitely heard of Rita Hayworth, but I learned so much about her life on so many different levels.

[1:45] Bettina Covo: One, we'll talk about this, but her struggle with Alzheimer's, her life history is absolutely fascinating.

[1:51] Bettina Covo: And I don't want to say too much because we're going to talk about it.

[1:54] Bettina Covo: But I'm really excited for everyone to learn more about Rita and more about this musical.

[1:59] Pauls Macs: Pals, I think our listeners would love to learn more about these fabulous ladies.

[2:03] Pauls Macs: Should we maybe get into these bios? Yes, we're going to read your bios.

[2:07] Pauls Macs: Yes. Let's introduce our fabulous guests. Cheryl, we're going to start with you.

[2:11] Pauls Macs: Cheryl Stern is an award-winning lyricist, librettist and performer, honored by the ASCAP Foundation's Jamie DeRoy and Friends Award and the Jonathan Larson Award.

[2:20] Pauls Macs: She co-wrote the off-Broadway musical A Letter to Harvey Milk and created the hit solo musical Shoes and Baggage, while also contributing lyrics to numerous acclaimed works, including Normal, The Audience and famous A Hollywood Musical.

[2:31] Pauls Macs: A graduate of Northwestern University, Cheryl is a resident member of the Cell Theater and a member of both ASCAP and the Dramatists Guild.

[2:38] Pauls Macs: Cheryl is also a Broadway veteran actress with a career spanning Broadway, off-Broadway, national tours, regional theater, television and film.

[2:45] Pauls Macs: And we do not have time to go into all those incredible credits today.

[2:49] Pauls Macs: I was about to say, y'all need to Google Cheryl Stern. Get in on that.

[2:54] Pauls Macs: Also, not to brag, I have had the privilege of performing with Cheryl in the past.

[2:59] Pauls Macs: And let me just say like lights, lights up a room.

[3:03] Cheryl Stern: Absolutely. I still think about your performance in that show.

[3:06] Bettina Covo: I can't remember.

[3:08] Cheryl Stern: It's OK. There's so much to think about, right?

[3:11] Bettina Covo: No, I remember you. You're like a reading.

[3:13] Bettina Covo: And for me, I was like, oh, my God, I get to listen to Cheryl Stern sing this beautiful solo.

[3:18] Bettina Covo: Like I was really a beautiful piece.

[3:20] Bettina Covo: And you were excellent. I remember it was for the Fifth Avenue Theater, actually.

[3:25] Cheryl Stern: Oh, my gosh. Amazing.

[3:26] Cheryl Stern: It was being developed by the Fifth Avenue. Exactly.

[3:28] Bettina Covo: Oh, my gosh.

[3:29] Bettina Covo: So we're all connected.

[3:31] Pauls Macs: Seattle, New York connection. That's fantastic.

[3:34] Bettina Covo: Exactly. And I can't wait to see how Bettina fits into all of this.

[3:37] Pauls Macs: Absolutely. Right. Bettina, you're next.

[3:39] Pauls Macs: Bettina Covo is a composer, lyricist, producer and graduate of the Juilliard School whose work spans theater, recording, performance and arts education.

[3:47] Pauls Macs: She created the original concept for Rita: More Than a Memory, a new musical inspired by the life of Rita Hayworth that we're going to talk a lot about today.

[3:54] Pauls Macs: Her diverse credits include theater works such as The Night Buster Keaston Drained Me and Beyond the Horizon, music for the Big Apple Circus, acclaimed recordings for Noxus and productions with Trinity Church, Wall Street and Jazz at Lincoln Center.

[4:06] Pauls Macs: Wow. You both have such fantastic bios.

[4:09] Pauls Macs: And I'm so interested to know, though, how did you two meet and come to collaborate?

[4:13] Teresa Attridge: I happen to know you live very near each other based on what we were talking about right before we pressed record.

[4:19] Bettina Covo: We lived on the same block when we first started working on this and I just moved recently.

[4:24] Bettina Covo: But I'm only 10 blocks away. But Bettina, you tell them how this all came to be.

[4:28] Bettina Covo: So the show was inspired, the concept of the show was inspired by the book If This Was Happiness by Barbara Leeming.

[4:37] Bettina Covo: And I had been working on it with another writer and we parted ways and I thought, oh, my God, who could I work with? Who could I work with?

[4:46] Bettina Covo: And I remember going to see Normal and I knew that was Cheryl and Tom Coachman's show.

[4:54] Bettina Covo: And I remember just being blown away by it. I thought it was just a fabulous, fabulous show.

[5:00] Bettina Covo: Great story, great book, great music. And so I called Tom up because Tom and I as musicians sort of did some things together.

[5:08] Bettina Covo: And I said to Tom, do you think that Cheryl might be interested in working on this?

[5:13] Bettina Covo: And he said, yeah, give her a call. So I called Cheryl.

[5:16] Cheryl Stern: Tom's my husband, by the way.

[5:18] Bettina Covo: Yes. Sorry. Yes. Forgive me. Forgive me.

[5:20] Bettina Covo: Keep dramaturgical information.

[5:25] Bettina Covo: I'm assuming everyone knows that.

[5:27] Cheryl Stern: No, they don't.

[5:28] Bettina Covo: No, they don't know that. So Cheryl and I met.

[5:31] Bettina Covo: Now everybody knows.

[5:32] Bettina Covo: Everyone who did what I said and Googled it.

[5:37] Bettina Covo: I just shared it on my Instagram story.

[5:39] Bettina Covo: Just for information's sake, Tom is the orchestrator arranger on Rita: More Than a Memory.

[5:45] Bettina Covo: So we're keeping it all in the family.

[5:47] Bettina Covo: Cheryl and I spoke and the subject matter interested her.

[5:51] Bettina Covo: She read the book and said, yeah, let's work together.

[5:55] Bettina Covo: And it's just been a fabulous partnership.

[5:58] Bettina Covo: We think very similarly in a dramatic way and just work really well together.

[6:05] Bettina Covo: So this has been a fabulous partnership.

[6:07] Bettina Covo: And then put Tom into the mix. It's just been incredible.

[6:10] Bettina Covo: We're having a good time with a very serious subject matter right now.

[6:15] Cheryl Stern: Yeah.

[6:16] Bettina Covo: We're finding humor in it as well.

[6:18] Bettina Covo: I mean, you have to find the humor in a serious thing sometimes, even if it's just like behind the curtain.

[6:23] Bettina Covo: Do you know what I mean?

[6:24] Bettina Covo: You have to keep your spirits up in order to really balance out the fact that, you know, I think it's really easy for people to remember Rita Hayworth as the bombshell, as the femme fatale, as this gorgeous, gorgeous woman.

[6:37] Bettina Covo: As we know, I mean, as like women in the industry, right, there's always something going on underneath.

[6:42] Bettina Covo: But the depth in which you really tell the story and especially in the amount of time that you tell the story, because this is like it's a very quick, very like the pacing of this is beautiful.

[6:53] Bettina Covo: And it feels like every moment is very deserved, very earned.

[6:57] Bettina Covo: There's no air. You know what I mean?

[6:59] Bettina Covo: In the script, it all feels very concise.

[7:01] Bettina Covo: And especially with the format you use and the way that the story is told non-linearly, it's very interesting.

[7:07] Cheryl Stern: We love to get feedback.

[7:09] Bettina Covo: We've been on Zoom with this piece for several years, but we've only been able to have two performances of it, thanks to the fabulous New York Theater Barn and the brilliant Joe Barros and Hector Flores Jr.

[7:22] Bettina Covo: But we really have not heard the full script out loud, per se.

[7:27] Cheryl Stern: I was just so struck by researching her life through your piece.

[7:31] Cheryl Stern: And then, you know, I, of course, had to like Google and be like, oh, my gosh, is this true?

[7:35] Cheryl Stern: And of course it all is. By the way, that was a wild experience to learn about her life in that way.

[7:39] Bettina Covo: But I was just so struck by that contradiction, especially there's something about golden age movie stars, right, where we know so much more about them now.

[7:46] Bettina Covo: We have this lens of like, oh, we have Wikipedia or whatever Internet resource to say like, oh, yes, this was happening behind the scenes.

[7:55] Bettina Covo: But that contradiction, because for so many people, you know, she was one of the top two pinup girls of her time.

[8:01] Bettina Covo: And this like idealized figure.

[8:04] Bettina Covo: And not only with her, you know, with so many of those starlets, there's something very dark lurking underneath.

[8:11] Bettina Covo: But she is just a classic example.

[8:14] Cheryl Stern: It was such a different time.

[8:16] Bettina Covo: It was. One of the things that I found so moving in general about the piece is I think we're so used to seeing Rita Hayworth through a male lens and the male gaze.

[8:25] Bettina Covo: And so having two women writers, you know, working on this piece and us exploring this character through a feminine lens is vastly different for one.

[8:36] Bettina Covo: Right. Because we have this very heavily edited, commodified, sold and resold and repackaged image.

[8:42] Bettina Covo: And then I feel like this show, we really start talking about the woman, you know, versus the idea.

[8:48] Bettina Covo: Like we start talking about Margarita instead of Rita.

[8:52] Teresa Attridge: You know, in fact, pals, do you have the synopsis?

[8:55] Teresa Attridge: I should read the synopsis. We all know exactly what we're talking about.

[8:58] Teresa Attridge: Exactly. Told through the lens of Rita's struggle with advancing Alzheimer's disease. Rita: More Than a Memory explores the fragile intersection between memory, identity, fame, love and loss.

[9:09] Teresa Attridge: Conceived and written by Bettina Covo, who wrote the music, lyrics and book. And Cheryl Stern, who wrote the book and additional lyrics.

[9:14] Teresa Attridge: This show authentically explores the toll this misunderstood disease took on Hayworth's life and career, while exposing how the film industry systematically erased her vibrant Spanish heritage.

[9:23] Teresa Attridge: Co-directed and choreographed by Joe Barros and Hector Flores Jr., New York Theater Barn's own. With music supervision, arrangements, orchestrations by Tom Cochan.

[9:31] Teresa Attridge: The original musical was showcased through New York Theater Barn in a week-long residency featuring an entire Latine ensemble.

[9:38] Pauls Macs: My first question is, I would love to know, how did Joe and Hector get connected to this piece?

[9:42] Bettina Covo: Oddly enough, I go way back with Joe Barros.

[9:45] Pauls Macs: I don't think that's odd. I mean, like, Joe Barros is well-connected.

[9:48] Pauls Macs: He's legendary.

[9:49] Bettina Covo: Beloved.

[9:50] Bettina Covo: But like, the first thing that...

[9:51] Bettina Covo: Yeah, legendary.

[9:52] Bettina Covo: In New York, he was a baby when we did Normal at Transport Group.

[9:58] Bettina Covo: And he was like an intern assistant something.

[10:02] Bettina Covo: And worked backstage on the show.

[10:04] Bettina Covo: Was so smart already and was giving people ideas and directions.

[10:08] Cheryl Stern: I love that.

[10:09] Bettina Covo: So brilliant.

[10:10] Bettina Covo: And he has such a mind, he remembers every line from everything I've ever done.

[10:15] Bettina Covo: And can spit it back at you at any moment.

[10:18] Cheryl Stern: You guys probably already know this.

[10:19] Cheryl Stern: But he will quote things from that show.

[10:21] Cheryl Stern: And that was 2005.

[10:22] Cheryl Stern: He will quote things from that show daily.

[10:25] Bettina Covo: His memory for Broadway casts is incredible.

[10:27] Bettina Covo: It's insane.

[10:28] Bettina Covo: He'll be like, oh yeah, she was in the 1996 production of So and So.

[10:31] Bettina Covo: And I'm like, how?

[10:32] Bettina Covo: Like, what?

[10:33] Bettina Covo: So, you know, we wound up reconvening.

[10:36] Bettina Covo: He was suggested to me as a director for my solo show.

[10:40] Bettina Covo: Written with my husband.

[10:41] Bettina Covo: Written with Tom Colchan.

[10:42] Bettina Covo: Shoes and Baggage.

[10:43] Bettina Covo: Which was being produced at The Cell in New York.

[10:45] Bettina Covo: The first production.

[10:46] Bettina Covo: And they loved Joe.

[10:48] Bettina Covo: And I had originally been working with Keira Simmering.

[10:51] Bettina Covo: Who was the artistic associate there.

[10:53] Bettina Covo: And she said, it's a musical. You need Joe Barros.

[10:54] Bettina Covo: And I went, Joe Barros! I know him!

[10:56] Bettina Covo: So we clicked immediately.

[10:58] Bettina Covo: And Joe directed Shoes and Baggage.

[11:00] Bettina Covo: Both iterations at Out of the Box and at The Cell.

[11:03] Bettina Covo: And I just adore him.

[11:05] Bettina Covo: And I adore the theater barn.

[11:06] Bettina Covo: And have seen so many things there.

[11:08] Bettina Covo: And worked on some of our other projects there as well.

[11:11] Bettina Covo: So when this came up.

[11:12] Bettina Covo: When we were working on Rita.

[11:14] Bettina Covo: I said, oh my God.

[11:15] Bettina Covo: This is so perfect.

[11:17] Bettina Covo: And I didn't know Hector that well yet.

[11:19] Bettina Covo: We met the two of them.

[11:20] Bettina Covo: And we sent them a rough draft and some early demo.

[11:24] Bettina Covo: And they got so excited by it.

[11:26] Bettina Covo: Especially because of the mission statement of New York Theater Barn.

[11:30] Bettina Covo: And exposing diverse cultures and people who are disenfranchised.

[11:35] Bettina Covo: And this is what Rita is really about.

[11:37] Bettina Covo: And having her heritage be erased was very exciting to them.

[11:41] Bettina Covo: So we embarked also. And Bettina can speak to this.

[11:45] Bettina Covo: Bettina has always had this strong feeling that the piece is fueled.

[11:49] Bettina Covo: The engine for it is dance.

[11:51] Bettina Covo: Specifically flamenco.

[11:52] Bettina Covo: Because Margarita Cancino, formerly who becomes Rita Hayworth, was from a flamenco family. Very famous.

[11:59] Bettina Covo: Then we got really excited because Joe and Hector are amazing choreographers and of Latin heritage and could really relate to all of this and bring such vibrancy to it. That was the beginning. Amazing. I just wanted to speak a little bit to the whole flamenco side because everyone asks me, why Rita Hayworth? Aside from her very colorful, incredible, yet tragic life, the thing that pulled me into it were two elements. The Alzheimer's element, which we can speak about later because that's its own thing. But the fact that she was Spanish. My father was Spanish. And as a kid, I grew up watching flamenco, watching and listening flamenco. And it is a style that I adore. It is dramatic. It is poignant.

It is elegant. It is fiery. And it is one hundred percent quintessential Spanish. And the fact that she came from a very, very prominent Spanish flamenco family intrigued me beyond belief. And I went, wow, this could be an opportunity to bring flamenco to American audiences packaged in a musical about a Hollywood icon. I went, this is too good to pass up. We've got to work on this. And so the Spanish element and the flamenco element, it doesn't overpower anything, but it runs consistently through the show. If you really watch Rita Hayworth on screen, you will see that element of her flamenco training in every move she makes. It's very powerful. And that was the element that they tried to erase out of her rather dramatically, race out of her.

But they couldn't. It was always there. That's also part of that smoldering sexuality she has on screen that pulls you in. That was one of the things that really, really intrigued me about her to help bring this story to life through the musical.

[14:04] Pauls Macs: Well, I want everyone to know that there's this amazing sizzle reel online that you can find on YouTube that shows the work that Joe and Hector created with this piece with Cheryl and Bettina. I was so struck by how well it moved. Honestly, emphasis on sizzle. I was blown away. It was electric. I was like, I was sweating. Okay, or should I say ole? So everyone? Exactly. But everyone will listen to this podcast, go on YouTube right now and Google Rita: More Than a Memory sizzle reel. And you'll get to see some of the work that was created in such a great, great way in New York. In talking about sort of the flamenco aspect and the way that that threads through not only her presence, her career, her identity, but the way that in the show, we are introduced to Rita as a dancer.

And in the context of this family, specifically in that opening, not opening per se, because we have prologue and stuff, but that first song of I Love to Dance with My Father. And like setting up the scene of being like, these are threads that tie we are learning immediately that those memories and everything that is connected, it all starts with family and about legacy and heritage, and the things that we build in I Love to Dance with My Father and the way that we are introduced to both Rita and Rita's father and the idea of this like initial legacy with vaudeville with dance. I'm really curious for you, when you were deciding how you wanted to sort of open this show, because it's kind of an opening in three parts, you know, because we have this sort of like more meta opening with the cameras flashing and these questions being asked.

And then this next opening, you know, where we're back in Brooklyn, and then we get into the past. So we sort of in quick succession are learning that we are being told this in both the past and the present when you were kind of deciding how to open this show. What was sort of the thought process? They are famously openings and endings are the hardest thing to write. What was that process like for the two of you, especially with this musical element? That's so important.

[16:03] Cheryl Stern: Okay, but it was a difficult process. Tina and I were working this morning and we have new ideas about how that opening is really going to take off. It's going to be more of a number than what you see in the script right now. And it is absolutely the hardest thing. Backstage exclusive. Oh my gosh. We're getting changes already. We just looked at the script. It's true. It's the hardest thing and you know, all the stories about Comedy Tonight being written like in previews. And you know, that's always the last thing that you figure out because it's very hard to launch a show. You have so many ideas and especially with this because it's episodic. Figuring out what really sets it in motion. And we really wanted this idea of giving people what they think they know.

We were talking about this this morning. They know Rita Hayworth is gorgeous and she was a film icon and that everybody worshipped her, right? Love goddess. So we wanted to see that and then we wanted to see that fracture and fall apart and break down. And this idea, and we're still working on that too, that there are two Ritas. There's Rita in her Alzheimer's state at 67 years old, looking back on her life, putting herself in the shoes of her younger self. And then there's her younger self who speaks to her and who is trying to stop her from remembering what she doesn't want her to remember. So they're at odds until the end. So that's a lot to establish in an opening. It's very important in this show, I think, particularly because there are going to be people who really don't know who Rita Hayworth is, that we establish who she is, that she was this incredible, iconic Hollywood star.

And we're toying with the idea of much more of a Broadway setting number at the opening to also show her off as a dancer. So that's established. She's a dancer. She's a Hollywood icon. Everyone wants to know stuff about her, be with her. They're hungry for information about her. And then we get to the older Rita who is suffering from very late stage Alzheimer's. So that you clearly can see there are two different Ritas and you can clearly see who they are. That's the challenge in this to also not make it biographical, but to do it on an emotional level.

[18:28] Pauls Macs: I said earlier, oh, I love this opening and maybe you'll change it, which is great. And there's something so evocative about the flashbulb. Very often directors, I'm a director just so you know, directors are obsessed with the opening image of the show. And what I loved about the flashbulbs and especially how it's described to be like percussive, almost disorienting, startling, heavy are the words used in the script. There's something about that that communicates the theme of Hollywood eradicating her identity right from the get-go. And we don't even know the story yet, but we're already experiencing the central tension of the story through that image. So you can get rid of that image or replace it.

[19:06] Cheryl Stern: Oh, no, no, it'll be there. Oh, it'll be there. Okay. Oh my God. It'll be a more extended number. Hey Rita, over here. Just extending that. Okay, great. Well, just, you know, I love it. I love the flashbulbs. Something about that scene I also really, really loved is the actors are asking a series of questions, right? How do you have five failed marriages? What happened to your fifth husband? There's one series in the eight questions that are asked. That is not a question, right? Because it's all question mark, question mark, question mark. And then we get, they say you're Spanish, period. Right. And it's because we're establishing, I'm like, that's an accusation. That is something that we're like, you have to answer to that.

Right? Because it's less about them actually inquiring and then more being about like, aha. Because I was immediately like, okay, this is this, this sentence, this question is not like the other questions, right? This is when we discover, like, this is what the heart of a lot of this is going to be about just on the page. And it's on literally page two. I'm like, okay, yeah, no, we're off and going, you know, I really just wanted to shout that out.

[20:05] Bettina Covo: Having gotten a look at the script, it's a good shout. It's great observation because of course they tried to get rid of that whole Spanish heritage in her. And it was Rita Moreno who said, uh, Rita Hayworth really was the first Latina icon in the business. And in some ways, I'm sure there were other actresses that we maybe are not so aware of or are not part of the story, but in some ways she's correct. And that is something that people are not aware of at all. And that's why that line, they say that they say you're Spanish. It has a very derogatory tone to it, which is how Hollywood viewed it. It's very different.

[21:04] Cheryl Stern: Yeah, exactly. And it's, it's so clear on the page. It's about setting up expectations, right? And the racism was rampant and not tampered in any way. Harry Cohn, you know, was her...

[21:10] Pauls Macs: We're going to get into that later, by the way, you can swear on the podcast.

[21:15] Cheryl Stern: Well, I feel like we've been kind of circling around it for a little bit, but let's go ahead and give the Barnacles a taste of the music.

[21:20] Bettina Covo: Oh my God, please. We've been teasing them long enough. Exactly. Can you please set up the song "Dance with My Father"?

[21:27] Cheryl Stern: So this is a song early on in the show where Rita is flashing back to her days as Margarita Cancino, her father's protege in a way. Eduardo Cancino was a very successful flamenco dancer, and he had a duo act with his sister, Elisa. They were on the vaudeville circuit. They were very successful. And Rita was basically born in a trunk and grew up learning to dance from the time she was what, between four or five? As soon as she could. I read online today that she was doing dance lessons every day, starting at the age of four, but was probably trained before that. Yeah, but he was very hard on her and she loved it. And it was also stressful. And she was a very shy girl. She was not the Rita that we saw on screen.

So this first number is ironic in a way, because we watch young Rita dancing with her father. We watch older Rita remembering and re-experiencing what that was like. And yet there's an undertone because we observe the father as very demanding, domineering. So something's brewing.

[22:32] Bettina Covo: Yeah, that was great. I'll just add this one little thing. So as you hear the lyrics go by, at first it's just innocent and beautiful and wonderful. But as the lyrics develop and the song moves on, there is a darkness that starts to come underneath, running underneath the song. That is a little bit foreshadowing of what will come because the relationship she has with her father is the paramount relationship in her life that has colored really almost every decision she's ever made, I think. And that's what the Leaning book also brings out rather strongly. The song is very important, very pinnacle to the whole production. And of course, it's all about dancing. So the song is performed by the fabulous Carmine Alers, playing older Rita.

Carmine is just brilliant. And the newcomer who is also so incredible, Gabby Boera. Friend of the Pod. Gabby's been on the pod before. As soon as I heard her voice, I was like, oh, that's Gabby. Oh, that's great. That's great. I saw Gabby in the sizzle reel and I was like, she's amazing. And just the perfect young Rita. So the two of them were really extraordinary together. And you'll get to hear a little bit of what's going on. So this first song is performed by Carmine Alers as older Rita and Gabby Boera as young Rita.

[23:55] ♪ Musical number: "I Love to Dance with My Father" — performed by Carmine Alers and Gabby Boera ♪

[24:00] ♪ Musical number: "Dance with My Father" — performed by Karmine Alers, Gabby Boera, and Luis Villabon ♪

[26:10] Cheryl Stern: This song has this instant dreamlike memory quality to it. There's like that music box feel. We've talked a little bit about being so economical in our storytelling and letting the audience know exactly what's happening right away. And I feel that this song does that with that feeling.

[26:29] Bettina Covo: I agree.

[26:30] Pauls Macs: Pals, you mentioned like this music box effect and I was going to say along the same lines. You get a sense of nostalgia in it. But in that, you also get that little inkling of there is something here I recognize and I don't know what it is, but the hair is standing up. Childhood, memory, nostalgia. But you talked about the father being the paramount relationship. Where my hair stood up, you can actually hear the father instructing her, instructing Rita, and he says this line, "I am the matador and you are the bull." Which to me implies just such a manipulative relationship. I was like, oh, I am me. Right where I live, as they say. And it's how men perceive the women.

[27:13] Cheryl Stern: Yes, unfortunately.

[27:14] Bettina Covo: Exactly. It's all there. Even his own child.

[27:17] Pauls Macs: I just want to say that that performance is by the fabulous Luis Villabon as Eduardo Cancino.

[27:21] Cheryl Stern: Yes, yes. And he's such a find and we're so fortunate that he's so passionate about this project and becomes such an integral part of it. And it's hard when you're playing a bad guy.

[27:33] Bettina Covo: I know.

[27:34] Cheryl Stern: He loved it.

[27:35] Bettina Covo: He did a great job.

[27:36] Pauls Macs: He's probably a really nice person, right?

[27:37] Cheryl Stern: Oh, he's a doll.

[27:39] Bettina Covo: Of course. And a consummate artist. And it's interesting that you talk about how the song feels kind of familiar. When we did it at the New York Theater Barn Choreography Lab, that's the first time that was heard or seen by anybody. Luis has friends from Spain. Jose Luis, who is a very prominent artist, and Mar, his wife, who is a prominent journalist from Spain, they came to see it just by chance they came into town that night. They sat down, they watched it, and they were blown away. But what was very interesting is they told Luis that the next day and the next day and the next day they were singing "Dance With My Father" over and over again. And Jose Luis said, there is something about this melody, I feel like I've heard it before. So I went, good validation.

[28:31] Pauls Macs: Yeah.

[28:32] Bettina Covo: Yeah.

[28:33] Cheryl Stern: There you go. Yep, yep, exactly. I mean, especially in a show where it's someone who's searching and trying to figure out what that is. I mean, for those who have experienced a relative who is struggling or dealing with or living with Alzheimer's, it is very fascinating in a way to sort of see what are the anchors and what are the lighthouses, like what are the things that draw them back.

[29:06] Bettina Covo: Yes.

[29:07] Cheryl Stern: You know, whether it's the thing in the past they keep going to or whether it's the thing in the present that brings them back to you. It's this constant pull between what you knew and what is there. And watching someone go through that experience is, it is sort of the double-edged sword of you are struggling and it's hard to see you go through this, but also I am meeting versions of you that I would not have known because this is before I was there. You know, being able to have that conversation with like a grandparent when they're 20, when they're 40, you know. So it's musically very interesting that you're able to capture that feeling in such a way that people keep being like going back and they're like, what is happening? Why am I replaying this over and over and over again? Because it mirrors that experience as well for both the person who is living with Alzheimer's and the person who is in the presence of it.

[29:56] Bettina Covo: Yes. It's very fascinating how you could capture that.

[29:59] Cheryl Stern: One of the things that drew me to the piece when Bettina presented it to me was the fact, and I found out that we shared this, I have a sister who has dementia from Parkinson's, as does her husband, and they are both in advanced stages of this and were pretty advanced when we started working on this. I was so drawn by the authenticity of how Rita and her disease are presented in the piece. It felt very real to me because I'm experiencing it all the time. My sister does do just that. There are times she's so not with it. And then you bring her a photo album of her life in high school and she will tell you everything she wore, where she bought the dress. You know, everything was about what she wore and who she was going out with and where they stayed.

Every detail is crystal clear, even though she confuses her phone and the remote for the TV. So there's that weird connection. That's what we're always working on with this is that she does remember, at least in our version, she does remember things in great detail. Sometimes they're totally twisted and distorted. Other times they're quite accurate. And then she's off and running again, and Harry Cohn is coming out of her TV set, and Orson Welles is coming into her living room and they're having conversations. So it's a mix of clarity and complete distortion.

[31:19] Bettina Covo: That was another very strong connection that Cheryl and I had. My aunt developed Alzheimer's. It was just painful. One thing that kept her going and she reacted to the most was music. I have another friend of mine. His mother was a great musician. The last thing to go was her piano playing. She was a gorgeous pianist. That stayed with her. And it was music. She also had been a pianist. And dancing and movement. She would move when she heard music. And that's partly what also attracted me and us together to this story about this woman who, in advanced Alzheimer's, I believe, and I think her daughter corroborates it, would react to music and would react to movement still in that advanced stage. And I went, wow, this is incredible.

[32:10] Cheryl Stern: There's an old saying in the dance world that is, a dancer dies two deaths, and the first is when you stop dancing and the second is when you actually pass. The degree of what we think about when we think of dancing, because Rita does talk to be like, oh, I miss dancing. She's, of course, talking about the dancing she did with Fred Astaire when she was a dancer, with her father, with all these Hollywood personalities. But also, like you're saying, even at an advanced stage, when you play the right song, when you have the right sound, the muscle memory, it kicks in. And the movement is there and the passion and the memory are there. The connection is there. It does make you wonder sort of, is there that second death at all, if you can still feel it in your body versus what you can execute.

[32:56] Bettina Covo: That's great. It's something I like stay awake and think about because I'm always like, oh, God. People post videos, a lot of like ballerinas who are now in their 90s, but when you play Swan Lake, they immediately, you know, their arms are up. They remember it. You see it. I think that you were saying that you wanted this to be a dance show. And I think that that is, I mean, thematically, of course, it's very perfect. But I think emotionally as well, given the subject matter, the subject herself, like it couldn't be a better, like dance is absolutely an incredible vehicle for this.

[33:31] Cheryl Stern: To kind of jump off this idea, I mean, the structure of this piece is something that is just so striking. I wasn't even thinking about that until you said that, but that's a great observation, Teresa, that the dancer dies two deaths because there's things in the show that using the lens of Alzheimer's, and I almost feel weird saying that using the lens because it feels more pure than that because you're just portraying something that's so deeply profound and has touched you in really tragic ways. So I want to make space for that. Using that lens feels weird to say. Instead, telling the story of Alzheimer's, of Rita's story, there are things that she remembers so clearly. And I was also reminded of a production actually of Evita that I saw that Sammy Canald directed, where there was like an older Evita and a younger Evita.

[34:27] Bettina Covo: You're kidding!

[34:28] Cheryl Stern: You saw those two interact. And you could see older Evita viewing her younger self and younger Evita viewing her older self.

[34:33] Bettina Covo: Love!

[34:34] Cheryl Stern: But I really get the sense that younger Rita is trying to protect older Rita from her most painful memory.

[34:36] Bettina Covo: Yeah, correct.

[34:37] Cheryl Stern: And that's like the central tension of the show. But it also allows you to explore just the biography of the things that she remembers so clearly. Another song I wanted to play is "The Colors of Me," which is a really pivotal moment in her career and her life. And so maybe we could talk about what that was in the biography of her because it's so important, but also we can set up the song. I think it would be good for the people... We've been talking about Rita and her father. To know that, for example, at a certain point, he said, hey, I'm not going to dance with my sister anymore. I'm going to dance with my 12-year-old daughter.

[35:06] Bettina Covo: Exactly.

[35:07] Cheryl Stern: And that's what happens in that song. The song is like the reaction to that moment.

[35:11] Bettina Covo: When I read that, my jaw dropped.

[35:12] Cheryl Stern: That's wild. A 12-year-old girl to be his dance partner. The song then dramatizes the reaction of his wife, of Rita herself, and also his sister. In the show, there's a number called Hollywood vaudeville, which you're not hearing right now, but it takes us back to the moment where Margarita Cancino, father, discovers that in the midst of his sister, Elisa, announcing that she doesn't want to dance anymore with him and she wants to have a family and leave the business, he discovers a new alternative, which is his daughter. She happens to be trying on her aunt Elisa's dress while they're having this argument and that he wants to move to Hollywood and make it in the talkies and leave vaudeville. In the midst of this, he sees her for the first time as an adult, as a woman, and she's 12.

[36:29] Bettina Covo: Also a moment in the show where we get a poetically intimate look at these three women and the effect that their life has had on them. So Elisa, it's about, she's read Passion, that's the Spanish, that's the drama, that's the dance, the Mother Volga, it's the gray, it's the sadness, it's the loss in her life. She was a Ziegfeld Folly girl and she stopped doing that to marry Eduardo and bring up the children. So she has a lost career over there. And then, of course, young Rita, just hoping that stardom could happen. She can be a blaze across the sky that people will remember. That is the subtext of her verse. It's what makes this song important. And it's also, it's just, it's that peaceful moment to look at the three of them and see what they're thinking at this moment in the show.

And who's performing on this song? Performing on "Colors of Me" is an earlier demo before our residency with the fabulous Trisha Jeffries, who's currently doing Sucks on the national tour, and the fabulous Sandra Morante, who is also in the residency, and she's amazing. And the special guest on this number is Bettina Covo herself. We love when a composer is on the track.

[37:51] Cheryl Stern: Well, it kind of goes a few ways, which is usually like, I sang all the songs, stop asking me this question. Or it's like a little Easter egg. Fantastic. Here is "Colors of Me" performed by Trisha Jeffries, Sandra Morante, and Bettina Covo.

[38:24] ♪ Musical number: "Colors of Me" — performed by Trisha Jeffries, Sandra Morante, and Bettina Covo ♪

[41:00] Cheryl Stern: I have to say that this song really evoked like a very specific feeling in me. You were mentioning before we listened about how Rita was 12 years old and they were like, yeah, I'll pass her off as my wife, she's a woman now. And I feel like there's this very sort of universal feeling when you're like born a woman or you're like used to like being a femme-presenting person, that when you hit 12, like that puberty age, right, and the world looks at you differently, whether it's like you've got your period, you've been mitzvahed, you've hit puberty, but the shift happens in which you are now a woman, whether you like it or not, that comes with so much that you don't understand. And the women in your life, it's a canonical event, they cannot stop this from happening to you.

And we see the perspectives of these women and of young Rita and Rita together at those two opposing times. And it brought up in me that sort of sense of not sadness, but like sort of the bearing the weight of that, you know, and so it was very evocative for me because there's something, it's not loud, it's not heavy, it's not like this declaration of that, but it is sort of that breath in between where you're like, okay, yeah, like, yeah, I got to do what I got to do. I just went into such a space with that. I wrote this song is such a mood. But to be more specific about that is to say that what's so interesting to me about it is they're all experiencing this event differently. And they even use different colors to describe what they're feeling right in this moment.

But and yet, through the music, they're unified in the weight of that experience. That's what just like hit me really, really hard. And also, you said, I think, a blaze across the sky. Yes. And Rita's comparing herself to the colors of the sun. And we saw Rita comparing herself to the colors of a sunset, just the way the color imagery blended together in a way that it was separate, but unified at the same time that came across very clearly to me in the song.

[42:58] Bettina Covo: Yeah. And I mean, also a sunset being such an allegory for this idea of the way that your own star rises and falls, right? Or the way that like, the sun, it comes every day, it rises, it's up, it sets. And that also mirrors the experience of Alzheimer's, right? We like wake up, we reach for the memory, we fall again. And it's sort of again, we're talking about cycles, we're talking about like, this idea of things that we keep repeating over and over and over again. And yet a sunset is so beautiful each time. And different each time. And different each time. And so it's I mean, the layering of context and imagery in the show is so beautiful. And the fact that you have like these characters talking about sunsets, someone young and someone older experience a sunset in a very different context.

[43:51] Cheryl Stern: Good point. Very smart. You're like, we're brilliant. You're brilliant. You're brilliant. Well, you are. But it's so wonderful to hear you finding so much in it. Teresa, your experience of it is just kind of amazing. But I love what you said about the song.

[44:04] Bettina Covo: Oh, I know. Because when we write, you know, I was talking to Cheryl this morning about it, when we write this stuff, I don't analyze it. I don't you know, we just we write it from the gut from the heart, of course, with craft around it. It's so wonderful to hear that it hits the mark that I think we were aiming for. And that's why we can't wait to get into the development of this on a full scale level, we need a full workshop so that we can do that and dig all that stuff, excavate all of that stuff out in each single number. So I really appreciate your comments they're very enlightening. Thank you.

[44:43] Cheryl Stern: Producers, if you're out there, if you're listening, throw money at them. Get them the workshop.

[44:50] Bettina Covo: Yes, please. There's an ongoing campaign.

[44:56] Cheryl Stern: Yes. Want to talk about the campaign at all?

[44:59] Bettina Covo: Absolutely. Sure, why not? So we were very fortunate to receive a wonderful endowment to be able to do the residency. And without that, we couldn't have gotten to that step because producing theater these days is rough. Theater companies need you to bring funds to the table in order to allow this art to happen. So yeah, we were so lucky to be able to take this huge step in five days to work on four production numbers and the scenes in and out of those numbers with brilliant choreography by Joe and Hector and direction. And then, you know, you realize, oh, I just want to go further. We want to do it all now. We want to sit down and dig in and do another section of the show. This show lives on its feet. It's very hard to do table reads of "Rita: More Than a Memory" because it is so involved with the physical life and the dance. Everyone's got to put shoes on their hands. It's so crazy. It's a really strange image. Tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap.

[45:54] Cheryl Stern: Yeah, so we're really excited to move to this next stage. And Bettina, I think you can speak to that.

[45:59] Bettina Covo: Of course, this has all been through New York Theater Barn, which has just been a remarkable, wonderful experience. And we're asking people if they're interested in helping to fund this next level that they contact Kate at the Theater Barn and ask about how they can do that. It's very important, this next stage, because as Cheryl said, we need to see it on its feet. Dance is integral to this. And without seeing that and seeing that staging and see how that moves everything forward, we're kind of a little dead in the water. We're very, very excited about this possibility. And we're starting a serious campaign for some serious money. We need serious money for this. So I hope that everyone listening out there would be interested to pursue this further.

And I think New York Theater Barn also has a way of contacting Kate or donating and it all becomes a donation because this is a not-for-profit organization. I just encourage you to do this so we can bring this fabulous show much more to life.

[47:05] Cheryl Stern: Yes, and Harry Cohn types need not apply. Harry Cohn, you keep away from me!

[47:16] Bettina Covo: Yes, to support this project, please contact Kate Trammell, the managing director of New York Theater Barn. Her email is kate at nytheaterbarn.org. She'll take your money. Don't worry. Shout out to Kate. Kate is the fairy godmother of this podcast.

[47:27] Cheryl Stern: She truly is. Thanks for joining us on New York Theater Barn's Backstage Pass. Join us next time as we continue our conversation with Cheryl Stern and Bettina Covo about their new musical, "Rita: More Than a Memory."