This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Welcome back to Backstage Pass. This week, we continue our conversation with the writers of Salem, Jennifer Lucy Cook, T.J. Pieffer, and Shelby Solla. Listen all the way to the end for a game where we decide which musical theater characters are actually witches.

[0:55] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I think that you were so smart in the way that you put all of these character archetypes in the show in a way that they all fed each other. You have the protagonist, you have Abby, who is rebellious, and she really wants to get out of Salem. She wants to go back to Boston. She wants to be with her mans and show off her ankles and bathe. All these luxuries she doesn't get to have juxtaposed with her cousin, Betty, who loves Salem, at least on the surface, loves Salem, thinks it's great, thinks it's good, but is driven so much by that good girl narrative of, if I can earn love, then I'm in control of it. Right? This, if I can be good enough or righteous enough, if I can be as accepting and loving into this life, I will get what's promised to me.

And to have those two be sort of our main characters, our main young characters, I should say, that we're living Salem through, it's interesting to see both of them kind of have to adjust, especially with the older characters that parallel everybody else.

[1:54] T.J. Pieffer: I think Irma and Olive are really brilliant characters, because as you were saying earlier, they're characters who choose their own reality. So much of this show is about how you perceive your reality, how you control your reality to suit your needs. But I was so curious about them, because one thing that's so fascinating about The Crucible, or this piece itself, is that Abigail Williams is a real person. Samuel Parris was a real person. I was Wikipedia-ing, that's a verb, Abigail. She just disappears into history. We know what happens to her to a certain age, and she just disappears. But were the Boxisters real? Or did you create them? And if you did, I would love to hear about that creative genesis, because they provide such an important function within the piece, the role models and voice of reason for Abby and for Betty.

[2:35] Jennifer Lucy Cook: There were dozens and dozens of people accused. We had trouble pinning down specific representations of real people in that regard. There was a draft where we had three or four real women who were accused. It's just such a nuanced situation that we kind of created these two characters that were an amalgamation of all of the accused. And that way, a lot of their jokes and situations are not on a directly real person that was either jailed or killed for being a witch. So it was kind of our way of representing everybody who was accused, and also giving us these two maternal kind of pseudo-mother characters for Abby, because obviously that did not really happen in real life.

[3:20] Teresa Attridge: So people who were accused either way?

[3:23] T.J. Pieffer: Teresa! You still got it!

[3:26] Jennifer Lucy Cook: You're on the roll!

[3:27] T.J. Pieffer: There was one other thing I wanted to say about the Bonk Sisters, which is, I don't know if you've said this yet, but I'm a director. That's how I find my way to the theater. So as a director, I am constantly thinking about first image and last image of the piece. And in the script, there's such a beautiful first image where you see the Bonk Sisters, and through the lighting, you see them as having witch hats. And so you see one perception of reality, right? You're coming in to see Salem, and you're like, oh, expect to see witches. But then it's revealed that they're really just rhubarb plants, which is just a great way of showing that, oh, yeah, you might perceive reality one way, and then it will be revealed to be something else.

[4:08] Jennifer Lucy Cook: So again, from the very first image, those characters are showing you that reality is not what you perceive. And I just think that was fantastic. You rarely see such a great opening image written into a script like that. So thank you.

[4:11] Shelby Solla: That's on writing.

[4:12] T.J. Pieffer: That's on writing.

[4:14] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Giving writing.

[4:16] T.J. Pieffer: You heard it here, folks, first.

[4:18] T.J. Pieffer: That's writing, ladies and gentlemen. That's what that is.

[4:18] Shelby Solla: Giving writing.

[4:19] T.J. Pieffer: That's funny that you mentioned that because so much of the first moment of the show, we really wanted to essentially give the audience what they're expecting, like they're expecting a story about witches, and then immediately subvert that expectation. So it opens with this kind of projection, this shadowy view of two women cackling with what appears to be pointed hats, and then we find that they're making quote unquote potions in their cabin together, and there's like a dark choir playing, but then immediately we just like subvert that expectation because we're not really interested in telling a stereotypical story about witches or about Salem or at all being the historical point of reference for Salem.

[5:03] Jennifer Lucy Cook: That's really the last word on the Salem witch trials from a historical accuracy perspective, and I think that that's so much of what drives our choices when writing this show.

[5:14] T.J. Pieffer: Yeah, we do not claim to be anywhere near like a historical account. We've thought about this like treating the Salem witch trials like a fairy tale. It's such a known thing in our cultural collective consciousness that then we can just be like, okay, we all understand that witches were accused, right, and that they weren't really witches. Like, we all get that, and that's our jumping off point for the story that we want to tell from the angle we want to tell it with the characters we've invented, really. Some of them happen to be named the same as some real life characters, but they're really nowhere near caricatures of our perceptions of what those people would be like.

[5:49] Shelby Solla: I mean, the Bog sisters are iconic. They are like one of my favorite things in the show. Something that I really enjoy is the richness of the world, which is established in the very first song. You know, it's you give us like a complete overview of who all of the main players are, what our protagonist is working towards. You almost fit like the opening number plus an I Want song plus a bunch of character intros all into like six minutes.

[6:15] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Thank you.

[6:16] T.J. Pieffer: Yes. Because also, we'll say as someone who read the script, it's a tight script. You guys get a lot of information in, in way less pages than you would expect.

[6:26] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Thank you.

[6:27] T.J. Pieffer: That's on writing.

[6:28] Shelby Solla: That's on writing.

[6:29] T.J. Pieffer: It's not like a broken record.

[6:30] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Honestly.

[6:31] Shelby Solla: The writing is really good in this piece, everyone. I just need everyone to know the writing is fantastic.

[6:36] T.J. Pieffer: The writing is so good. So funny.

[6:39] Jennifer Lucy Cook: The way you're able to land those character relationships, right? You know, show don't tell. That's a common writing thing. You don't have to explain to the audience that Abby and Betty have this really strained relationship. They don't have to say that out loud. You can just tell in their dialogue what's going on between them so quickly. It's very well done. That's on writing.

[6:54] T.J. Pieffer: Period.

[6:55] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Thank you. We always feel like we have ways to go there. We've just been having like dramaturgy meetings. I'm like, oh, gosh, there's a lot to do. So it's very nice to hear that it's tight to you already. And we'll only improve.

[7:07] Shelby Solla: There we go. Call me. Another aspect of the show that I really enjoy is the devil himself. Truly.

[7:15] T.J. Pieffer: Oh, please. Yeah, I'm fascinated by this.

[7:17] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Not to give away any spoilers.

[7:18] T.J. Pieffer: Which is now Teresa is now herself, just as an amendment to the version that you...

[7:22] Shelby Solla: Oh, duh.

[7:23] T.J. Pieffer: But that's okay. You've seen the old version. And listen, again, that's on writing. It's improving.

[7:27] Shelby Solla: That's on writing.

[7:28] T.J. Pieffer: But could you talk about your conception of the devil? Because I'm really fascinated by that and making that a physical manifestation within the show. Or is it physical? I'm not sure. Talk about that, please.

[7:39] Jennifer Lucy Cook: It is. It was kind of the only like, quote unquote, supernatural element that we incorporated. But we use it as a lens of kind of our protagonist Abby's conscience, kind of the devil and angel on your shoulder. This creature being is in her imagination as kind of the bad influence manifestation in a physical appearance. She is like a crazy party girl, kind of like everything that Abby thinks is cool as a 16 year old girl, and is just always giving her terrible ideas. At the start of the show, Abby is heavily listening to her, which is how we get into this trouble that we're in.

[8:15] T.J. Pieffer: So it's giving Taylor Swift's anti-hero music video.

[8:18] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Exactly, Teresa. Yes.

[8:20] Shelby Solla: Amazing. Someone argued Taylor Swift could be the devil. She can be anything.

[8:25] T.J. Pieffer: I wouldn't publicly argue that. I wouldn't publicly argue that.

[8:29] Jennifer Lucy Cook: In this country, you can be anything you put your mind towards. Listen.

[8:32] T.J. Pieffer: Sometimes I do think everyone is a sexy baby, but that's basically what the devil is.

[8:39] Shelby Solla: And TJ is working through that in therapy.

[8:42] T.J. Pieffer: The devil would consider herself a sexy baby, though. 100%.

[8:45] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Yes.

[8:46] T.J. Pieffer: Oh, yeah.

[8:47] Shelby Solla: For sure. And I think it's important female representation to have a woman devil. It's not been done on Broadway before. So, well, actually...

[8:54] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Our time has come.

[8:55] T.J. Pieffer: We're breaking the glass ceiling.

[8:56] Shelby Solla: Yeah, we are breaking the glass ceiling.

[8:58] T.J. Pieffer: Devil representation. Yes.

[9:00] Jennifer Lucy Cook: And I think that's the perfect segue into the demo, An Idle Brain Invites the Devil In.

[9:06] T.J. Pieffer: Oh, my gosh.

[9:07] Jennifer Lucy Cook: See how I did that?

[9:08] T.J. Pieffer: Yes.

[9:09] Shelby Solla: How's your natural?

[9:10] T.J. Pieffer: I, you know...

[9:11] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Professional.

[9:12] T.J. Pieffer: Lots of practice.

[9:13] Jennifer Lucy Cook: An Idle Brain Invites the Devil In is a song that Betty sings very early on in the show where she is talking to Mary and Mercy about how to be so good. Mary and Mercy look up to her because she's just the most pious, the greatest example ever. So she sings about how she does it. And she just keeps herself busy doing all the good things the entire time. And so you'll hear in the middle, she kind of takes on a flight of fancy as she sings, Paradise has got a spot for me. Because, of course, at this time, the Puritans imagined that they were divinely elected to go to heaven.

[9:48] T.J. Pieffer: Predestination.

[9:49] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Thank you. Yes. Predestination. So this is Betty describing how she's sure of that.

[9:54] T.J. Pieffer: And, Teresa, to your point earlier about the conservative religious upbringing, this one was very alarmingly, disturbingly easy for me to write as well. It came out real easy.

[10:03] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I see you.

[10:06] T.J. Pieffer: Thank you.

[10:07] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Here is An Idle Brain Invites the Devil In.

[10:36] ♪ Musical number: "An Idle Brain Invites the Devil In" — performed by Jennifer Lucy Cook ♪

[11:12] ♪ Musical number: "An Idle Brain Invites the Devil In" — performed by Jennifer Lucy Cook ♪

[13:51] Pauls Macs: Oh my gosh, so the thing I love about that song… from your description of the song I imagine a completely different sounding song, and then this song it's like, oh, this is a pop.

[14:02] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I was singing it at work, no one knew what I was saying, and it sounded so strange coming from someone who was like, making a latte.

[14:12] Pauls Macs: Oh my gosh, I'm glad you were singing it, that's amazing.

[14:15] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I was, I was literally foaming milk and just being like, give me lots of rules and never ending Sunday school.

[14:22] Shelby Solla: So good.

[14:24] Pauls Macs: It does sound like you're having a mental break to the 21st century ear.

[14:29] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Yeah.

[14:30] Pauls Macs: Like, is that not what we want from our baristas when you really think about it?

[14:33] Shelby Solla: Exactly. Yeah, I like tried to make a melody that felt a little nursery rhymy, but with a beat that, like you say, Pals, was not so much on the nose.

[14:43] Jennifer Lucy Cook: We have to hint at the fact that later in the show, she actually does think for herself.

[14:48] Pauls Macs: At a certain level, she's thinking for herself now, you know, she's naive at this stage, but the drums are the giveaway at this point.

[14:54] Shelby Solla: Classic drums.

[14:56] Pauls Macs: And I love that musical subtext. Sondheim would be proud.

[14:58] Jennifer Lucy Cook: We have one more demo. This one is called Witch Hunter General.

[15:01] Pauls Macs: This is like a really upbeat pop that I wasn't expecting at all again in the show.

[15:06] Jennifer Lucy Cook: This song opens our act two, where we meet this character, Matthew Hopkins, who is based on a real character, who comes from London as this witch hunter expert that's been brought in to help find all the witches that are in Salem.

[15:21] Pauls Macs: So he's written this book about how to find them all.

[15:24] Jennifer Lucy Cook: And he's very sure that he is basically the second coming.

[15:29] Pauls Macs: And he arrives in Salem and basically galvanized the town towards even more witch hunting.

[15:35] Jennifer Lucy Cook: This one is performed by Peter White.

[15:38] Pauls Macs: Here is Witch Hunter General performed by Peter White.

[15:47] ♪ Musical number: "Witch Hunter General" — performed by Peter White ♪

[18:29] Pauls Macs: Another one that I'm just like...

[18:40] Shelby Solla: Literally, you know when it's like you can like hear a man do a deep lunge?

[18:45] Pauls Macs: Because I feel like that's the kind of song where a man would put his legs on something and do the deepest lunge.

[18:51] Shelby Solla: There's some Gaston vibes going on in there for sure.

[18:54] Pauls Macs: It's really just, it's giving...

[18:57] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Have you seen Unsinkable Molly Brown? Like that old, I think it's Howard Keel that like sings, Colorado my home, and he does like that lunge and it's always like heartbeats from the 1950s.

[19:08] Shelby Solla: There are some songs that are for men who lunge.

[19:11] Pauls Macs: And that song is for men who lunge.

[19:14] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Here's to the men who lunge.

[19:16] Pauls Macs: A whole new type.

[19:17] Shelby Solla: That's right.

[19:18] Pauls Macs: Truly.

[19:19] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Who doesn't love a Meredith Wilson discussion on a musical theater?

[19:21] Pauls Macs: Oh my god, get Christian Burrell on the phone.

[19:25] Jennifer Lucy Cook: These demos were amazing. Thank you for sharing them with us.

[19:27] Pauls Macs: It's made both our lives better and now will make all the listeners lives better.

[19:30] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I think it might be time to play our game.

[19:33] Pauls Macs: Oh my gosh.

[19:34] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Do you want to set it up?

[19:35] Pauls Macs: This game was created by Teresa.

[19:36] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I've created a few, but Teresa came up with another star game.

[19:39] Pauls Macs: Another banger, truly.

[19:41] Jennifer Lucy Cook: This game is called Devil's Advocate.

[19:44] Pauls Macs: And what you are all going to do, us included, me and Pals, is we are going to pick a musical theater character and accuse them of being a witch.

[19:52] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Now the rule of the game is you cannot pick a canonical witch.

[19:55] Pauls Macs: Cannot be Elphaba.

[19:56] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Cannot be the witch in Into the Woods.

[19:58] Pauls Macs: We know there are witches. They're just, they're dead.

[20:01] Jennifer Lucy Cook: They're dead to us.

[20:01] Pauls Macs: You need to pick someone and then we will all vote on whether we believe that they are also a witch.

[20:06] Jennifer Lucy Cook: If we all vote, that's great. You win. It's cool.

[20:09] Pauls Macs: If we all vote and you are wrong, we will stone you to death.

[20:15] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Fair.

[20:16] Pauls Macs: Yeah, these seem like reasonable stakes.

[20:18] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Totally.

[20:19] Pauls Macs: I just like to think that it's what the devil would have worn in.

[20:22] Jennifer Lucy Cook: So the prize of winning is to not be stoned to death by you.

[20:26] Pauls Macs: Yeah, it's just like the Salem witch trials.

[20:28] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Okay, sounds fun.

[20:29] Pauls Macs: That is the prizes you get to win.

[20:31] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Thank you.

[20:32] Pauls Macs: Do you want to go to Teresa? I have a few.

[20:34] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I need you to go.

[20:35] Pauls Macs: Okay, well.

[20:36] Jennifer Lucy Cook: You know I need you.

[20:37] Pauls Macs: I know.

[20:38] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I need you to share your wisdom, your insights.

[20:39] Pauls Macs: All right, I'm going to tee us up.

[20:40] Jennifer Lucy Cook: So, it's so funny.

[20:42] Pauls Macs: We were talking about this yesterday.

[20:43] Jennifer Lucy Cook: The last show that I directed was the 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee.

[20:47] Pauls Macs: And Teresa and I were hanging out, working on sound stuff yesterday.

[20:50] Jennifer Lucy Cook: And she said, well, leave Coney there, obviously, because he goes into that trance and all of a sudden he can spell words.

[20:55] Pauls Macs: He's a witch, right?

[20:57] Jennifer Lucy Cook: But also, William Morris Barfee has a magic foot.

[21:01] Pauls Macs: So isn't that witchcraft as well?

[21:03] Jennifer Lucy Cook: But so I'm not sure that those are going to be my two.

[21:05] Pauls Macs: So I just did a rundown of – we always say Mrs. Lovett.

[21:09] Jennifer Lucy Cook: We always, always say Mrs. Lovett.

[21:10] Pauls Macs: We say Mrs. Lovett and Elle Woods in every episode, no matter the game.

[21:13] Jennifer Lucy Cook: And so we can't do those.

[21:14] Pauls Macs: We can't do those because, I mean, you could say Mrs. Lovett. How are those pies so good? But we know.

[21:18] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Also, Elle Woods, how is she that charming and positive? We know.

[21:20] Pauls Macs: Right.

[21:22] Jennifer Lucy Cook: The first reaction that I had to this question was, well, I'm going to do the witch from Into the Woods.

[21:26] Pauls Macs: But then Teresa was like, no, it's not a canonical witch.

[21:28] Jennifer Lucy Cook: But so I was thinking Sondheim. Who else from the Sondheim canon? Oh, how about Fosca from Passion?

[21:33] Pauls Macs: Yes.

[21:34] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Good shout. She's definitely got a witchy vibe.

[21:37] Pauls Macs: And she uses her powers to make Georgiou fall in love with her and teaches him the true meaning of love.

[21:42] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Or is it love? Is crazy obsession love? I don't know.

[21:45] Pauls Macs: And at the end of the show, she dies.

[21:47] Jennifer Lucy Cook: But does she? We never see that body necessarily.

[21:50] Pauls Macs: Maybe she goes off and seduces another young soldier.

[21:53] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I also had a few other quick hits. Mary Poppins. Is she a witch? What's her deal? Matilda. Is she a witch? What's her deal? The Jersey Boys. How did all those Jersey boys sing so well together? I mean, they're just four boys.

[22:04] Pauls Macs: All I'm learning about Pals is that he wants to kill witches.

[22:07] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Pals is officially on the hunt.

[22:09] Pauls Macs: Based on everyone's vocal reaction, is Fosca a clear choice for my submission? What do people think?

[22:14] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I would vote that Fosca's a witch.

[22:16] Pauls Macs: I vote yay.

[22:17] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I don't know anything about the show, Pals, other than what you've just said. So to me, that show is about a witch now, and I vote yes.

[22:25] T.J. Pieffer: You a synopsis that maybe we don't keep in the episode, but maybe we do, T.J.? I've never seen the show.

[22:30] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Fawcett is a woman who is so ugly.

[22:34] T.J. Pieffer: Wait, wait, wait. You've never seen the show?

[22:36] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I've never seen the show, but I know what it's about.

[22:38] T.J. Pieffer: It's better if you describe it. I've never seen it.

[22:40] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I love this. I love this girl. She is so ugly. And then she has sex and dies. And that's the whole show.

[22:49] T.J. Pieffer: Like a witch.

[22:51] T.J. Pieffer: That's it. That's the show.

[22:53] T.J. Pieffer: I say witch.

[22:56] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Yeah, me too. I mean, 100%.

[22:58] T.J. Pieffer: If I could say one more thing about the masterpiece that is Stephen Sondheim and James Lapine's Passion. Okay, I get it. The title. That was me for a very long time. I was like, Passion, what is that show about? Once you start digging in, it's really quite a profound piece that's like weird and twisted, but also kind of like hot and beautiful. If anyone, you know, especially now that Mr. Sondheim has passed, if anyone wants to bone up on there, or if anyone wants to really expand their Sondheim horizons, I would check it out because it's really fantastic.

[23:25] T.J. Pieffer: Owls.

[23:27] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I prefer bone up.

[23:29] T.J. Pieffer: I would love to bone up your Sondheim knowledge.

[23:30] T.J. Pieffer: Owls.

[23:33] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Get boned.

[23:35] T.J. Pieffer: This is a podcast. Commit to it.

[23:39] T.J. Pieffer: Okay, I said a lot of stuff. It's another person's turn for sure.

[23:41] Jennifer Lucy Cook: All right, which guest would you like to go next?

[23:43] T.J. Pieffer: I'm ready. Aunt March from Little Women because how did she get so rich? How does she travel? Well, actually, just from a societal perspective, stereotypically, she's really got all of the qualities that you would accuse a woman of being a witch for. Independent, wealthy, doesn't need a man, self-empowered.

[23:59] T.J. Pieffer: Shelby, you have to know Little Women is the other show that I always bring up on the podcast. When we did Millennials are Killing Musicals, we went through and assigned which March sister would be on which social media platform. So yes, that is.

[24:13] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Wow.

[24:15] T.J. Pieffer: Amazing.

[24:17] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Everyone go back and listen to that episode.

[24:19] T.J. Pieffer: There's some like practical magic overtones kind of to the Little Women thing, too.

[24:22] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Mm hmm.

[24:24] T.J. Pieffer: Yeah, Jen. That's so good.

[24:26] Jennifer Lucy Cook: This is unrelated. I have to tell this story, though. It was October. It was prime practical magic season. I go to a bar. They had a drink called a practical magic. Tell me why the fuck it wasn't a margarita. Why was it not a rosemary lavender margarita with a salt rim?

[24:40] T.J. Pieffer: It was like an apple bourbon drink. They literally have a scene called Midnight Margaritas and she has that whole speech about you grow lavender for luck and rosemary by your golden gate and throw salt over your shoulder and find love wherever you can. However, that quote goes, I don't fucking know. I'm not a doctor. So you have three ingredients. You have a base liquor. Make the practical magic a drink.

[25:01] Jennifer Lucy Cook: It's right there.

[25:03] T.J. Pieffer: But do it right, you rubes.

[25:05] T.J. Pieffer: In the musical theater catalog, without a doubt, Mr. Pinky from Hairspray. He brings Edna into the changing room, and within a matter of seconds, she has transformed herself, her hair, her makeup, her outfit, her shoes into a completely different woman in an insane amount short time. And I think that Mr. Pinky cast some sort of spell on Edna Turnblad to turn her into the woman that we know and love today.

[25:36] Jennifer Lucy Cook: That's a good one.

[25:37] T.J. Pieffer: Fascinating.

[25:38] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I haven't seen a transformation like that. The one I'm thinking of is Cinderella and the fairy godmother, you know?

[25:44] T.J. Pieffer: And what is she? A canonical witch.

[25:46] Jennifer Lucy Cook: And what is she? Thank you, Teresa. So, is she a witch or a fairy godmother? What is the difference there?

[25:51] T.J. Pieffer: They're the same.

[25:52] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Whoa, whoa.

[25:53] T.J. Pieffer: It's like the difference between like, an expat and an immigrant. Like, let's be fucking real.

[25:58] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I will second.

[25:59] T.J. Pieffer: People are like, I'm an expat. I'm like, you can say you're an immigrant. Why do you think that's not a great word?

[26:03] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Let's bring it back to the witch in Into the Woods, her transformation. She is a witch.

[26:09] T.J. Pieffer: I think Mr. Pinky is a sorcerer.

[26:11] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Well then, maybe Foska's not a witch if she can't magic.

[26:14] T.J. Pieffer: No, no, you can't go back. Don't take that.

[26:17] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Okay, but there's different kinds of witches, right? There's night witches.

[26:22] T.J. Pieffer: Yeah.

[26:23] Jennifer Lucy Cook: No, thank you. I will second Mr. Pinky. I believe Mr. Pinky's a witch. And in the history, there were both male-identifying and female-identifying witches.

[26:32] T.J. Pieffer: Yep.

[26:33] Jennifer Lucy Cook: That's right.

[26:34] T.J. Pieffer: I give it a tepid yes.

[26:35] Jennifer Lucy Cook: You have a stone in your hand.

[26:38] T.J. Pieffer: There's no six stones in my pocket.

[26:41] Jennifer Lucy Cook: She could be swayed by the mob, potentially.

[26:44] T.J. Pieffer: Yeah.

[26:45] Jennifer Lucy Cook: All right. I will vote no.

[26:49] T.J. Pieffer: Here's what, Theresa. I think it's just because we've gotten two yeses already, and you're itching to stone somebody, and you're taking an hour not to say thank you.

[26:57] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Just because I'm prone to violence doesn't mean I'm not without logic.

[27:00] T.J. Pieffer: Oh my God. This jury is fucked up.

[27:03] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I think the reason I would say Mr. Pinky could do all of that amazing... One, Mr. Pinky had a team. A whole bunch of extras came out, helped him, escorted him along. But also, if Bobby Burke from Queer Eye can build a whole house in three days, I feel like Mr. Pinky can put some lipstick on a woman.

[27:18] T.J. Pieffer: Two quick rebuttals to that.

[27:19] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Or is Bobby a witch too?

[27:20] T.J. Pieffer: Number one, thank you. That was my second rebuttal. He is also a witch. And first of all, it's only Mr. Pinky that goes into the curtains with that Naturn Blood. Everyone else is dancing around in the front of the curtains, not helping the sorcerer.

[27:33] Jennifer Lucy Cook: They cannot stop that beat.

[27:34] T.J. Pieffer: That's right. You know what? You've swayed me. You've swayed me, TJ. I will also vote yes.

[27:41] Jennifer Lucy Cook: By the way, to all listeners who can't see, TJ is crossing his arms in a very self-satisfying way.

[27:46] T.J. Pieffer: Thank you.

[27:48] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Love that.

[27:49] T.J. Pieffer: Smugly.

[27:50] Jennifer Lucy Cook: No one ever say that I was unreasonable.

[27:51] T.J. Pieffer: Jen, your silence is deafening.

[27:52] Jennifer Lucy Cook: No, I'm 100% on your side about this.

[27:54] T.J. Pieffer: Oh, I take that back. Thank you, Jen.

[27:57] Jennifer Lucy Cook: No stones in hand.

[27:58] T.J. Pieffer: Jen, who is your choice?

[27:59] Jennifer Lucy Cook: My choice is Belle from Beauty and the Beast. Because she can read.

[28:06] T.J. Pieffer: That's evidence number one.

[28:09] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I think, okay, so here's my idea for the lore. I think Belle and her father are both witches. Belle actually casts the spell that wakes up the beast at the end. What if the enchantress at the beginning was Belle's mom? We never meet her. Who knows what she's up to? She's traveling.

[28:27] T.J. Pieffer: That's a whole new movie.

[28:30] Jennifer Lucy Cook: She's cursing little boys all over. Maybe she met the prince and was like, you have some learning to do before you are the right match for my daughter. And so she cursed him knowing that her daughter Belle, when the time was right, would have everything she needed to put him back to being a prince, put the castle back to its place.

[28:50] T.J. Pieffer: It's a witch story.

[28:51] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Is this the new Wicked?

[28:52] T.J. Pieffer: It's giving, yes, it's giving Wicked, but it's also giving Jacob imprinting on a baby in Twilight.

[28:57] Jennifer Lucy Cook: So I disagree.

[28:58] T.J. Pieffer: Twilight reference.

[28:59] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I don't think it's as frivolous as this.

[29:03] T.J. Pieffer: I think there's evidence to suggest.

[29:05] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I'll say this much, Jen voted to not stone me, and that makes me want to vote to not stone her. So I think she's right and Belle is a witch.

[29:16] T.J. Pieffer: You know what? I agree. And also, Disney, there's money to be had here. So you should make a movie where Belle is actually a witch because, you know, it'd be controversial. People would be upset. They'd come see it just so they could form an opinion. You should get on it.

[29:27] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I mean, I think the town like knows something's weird, right? From the very first song, but she's smart enough not to show it.

[29:34] T.J. Pieffer: There's something about her.

[29:35] Jennifer Lucy Cook: A witch.

[29:36] T.J. Pieffer: She controls sheep.

[29:37] Jennifer Lucy Cook: She's strange but special.

[29:38] T.J. Pieffer: Yeah, exactly.

[29:39] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Strange but special.

[29:40] T.J. Pieffer: Yeah.

[29:41] Jennifer Lucy Cook: She's dazed and distracted. Can't you tell?

[29:43] T.J. Pieffer: Exactly.

[29:44] Jennifer Lucy Cook: We have precious little time left and we've all survived so far. So Teresa, we gotta stone somebody. TJ's gonna be coming for my neck. I feel it.

[29:52] T.J. Pieffer: Good luck.

[29:53] Jennifer Lucy Cook: And honestly, I kind of want it to happen.

[29:54] T.J. Pieffer: Oh my god.

[29:55] Jennifer Lucy Cook: My pick was Willy Wonka. Willy Wonka's a witch.

[29:57] T.J. Pieffer: Willy Wonka is like an Elon Musk type person in my imagination.

[30:03] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I don't think he's a witch. I think he's just a...

[30:05] T.J. Pieffer: In your pure imagination?

[30:06] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Spoiled.

[30:07] T.J. Pieffer: Oh, Teresa.

[30:08] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Helping.

[30:09] T.J. Pieffer: Helping.

[30:10] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I think Teresa's a witch. Here's the reason. I believe that part of witchcraft is having like little minions. And I feel like the enslavement of the Oompa Loompas, very witch energy. I feel like the ability to have tickets find people, specifically Charlie, I feel like that's very witch energy. Directing of precious metal. I feel like being able to create concoctions, like we can call them candies. We all know those are potions. Kids are flying. Also, how did a goose disgloob, not just drown? Because there was no oxygen in that tube when he stopped the tube. I feel like there was magic at work. Also, Mike TV shrinking. We could say it was science. We really could, but we can't explain it, you know why? Because it's magic. Also, there's all these giant geese. I don't think he found giant geese. I think Willy Wonka made the geese bigger. I think that that was a spell. Because he has enlargement powers, he's able to do this.

[31:00] T.J. Pieffer: I read an article today about a man in like Montana. He trafficked these Mongolian goat testicles across state lines to make a super goat that's giant.

[31:13] Jennifer Lucy Cook: So you don't have the geese, nothing.

[31:16] T.J. Pieffer: Do you have evidence of Willy Wonka bringing giant goose semen? We know that he's very resourceful, right? We know he's very resourceful. Would you say a witch is not resourceful?

[31:25] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Candy recipes are candy recipes, right? Like anybody can make-

[31:28] T.J. Pieffer: Candy recipes are candy recipes, but can you give a scientific explanation for how he's able to make all of the physical effects happen?

[31:32] Jennifer Lucy Cook: What if the goombas are the magical creatures that he enslaved and he is just kind of a bad dude?

[31:41] T.J. Pieffer: But if they have magic and he doesn't, then why would they be enslaved?

[31:45] Jennifer Lucy Cook: There is something witch-coded about a walking stick, I'll give you that, Theresa.

[31:48] T.J. Pieffer: But I think Shelby's right. His wealth is his magic. And I think there's some sick part of your brain that does want to be stoned. So for all those reasons and more, I vote not a witch.

[31:58] T.J. Pieffer: Not a witch.

[31:59] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Oh my god, this is incredible. It was that and Jennifer Moritra, who I also can't shut up about, because I was like, why are the pies so good? But I will stand by the fact that I think Willy Wonka is a witch, mostly because I think Gene Wilder was a witch. I mean, young Frankenstein kind of gives that away.

[32:12] T.J. Pieffer: I would say that you have some good evidence, but I don't believe it beyond all reasonable doubt.

[32:17] Jennifer Lucy Cook: See, this is where the drama comes in. So pals, are you stoning her to death?

[32:22] T.J. Pieffer: Stone me.

[32:23] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Who would co-host this podcast? Who would come up with such well thought out dramaturgical questions?

[32:27] T.J. Pieffer: It's true.

[32:28] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Thanks for killing me, friends.

[32:29] T.J. Pieffer: We stoned Theresa.

[32:30] Jennifer Lucy Cook: It was our pleasure.

[32:32] T.J. Pieffer: I just want to say one more time, Shelby, TJ, Jennifer, thank you all for being here today and for sharing Salem with us. Everyone who's listening, please go check it out. You won't be disappointed. It's a really fantastic, hilarious piece with an incredible musical palette.

[32:45] T.J. Pieffer: Thank you.

[32:46] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Thank you all for being here.

[32:48] T.J. Pieffer: Thank you for having us.

[32:49] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Thank you.

[32:50] T.J. Pieffer: Theresa, do you want to add anything? Throw anything in?

[32:53] Jennifer Lucy Cook: She's dead.

[32:54] T.J. Pieffer: I'm dead.

[32:55] Jennifer Lucy Cook: I can't speak.

[32:56] T.J. Pieffer: She is as dead as Fosca.

[33:00] Jennifer Lucy Cook: No, that's all just stained and unedited.

[33:01] T.J. Pieffer: All right. Thank you, everyone.

[33:03] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Thanks for listening to Backstage Pass.

[33:04] T.J. Pieffer: Thank you, Barnacles.

[33:05] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Bye, Barnacles.

[33:11] T.J. Pieffer: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass, hosted by Theresa Attridge and Pals Max. If you like what you hear, you can like, subscribe, and share. See you next time.

[33:29] Jennifer Lucy Cook: Bye.