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[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to give you an inclusive look behind the scenes. We are interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:44] ♪ Musical number: "I Love to Dance with My Father" — performed by the company of Rita: More Than a Memory ♪

[2:08] Teresa Attridge: You're listening to "I Love to Dance with My Father" from the new musical Rita: More Than a Memory. Welcome back to part two of our conversation with Cheryl Stern and Bettina Covo about this moving new musical. You'll hear two more songs from the show and learn more about the fascinating and tragic life of Rita Hayworth. Told through the lens of Rita's struggle with advancing Alzheimer's disease, Rita: More Than a Memory explores the fragile intersection between memory, identity, fame, love, and loss. Conceived and written by Bettina Covo and Cheryl Stern, this show authentically explores the toll this misunderstood disease took on Hayworth's life and career, while exposing how the film industry systematically erased her vibrant Spanish heritage.

Co-directed and choreographed by Joe Barros and Hector Flores, Jr., with music supervision, arrangements, and orchestrations by Tom Kochan, this original musical was showcased through New York Theater Barn and a week-long residency featuring an entire Latiné ensemble. Listen all the way to the end for a game where we decide which musical theater characters would make our ideal femme fatale. What we haven't been able to talk about yet, we know that Rita got discovered and then went to Hollywood, and we've teased this a little bit, talking about Harry Cohn and the erasure of her identity. So can you just talk about her journey in Hollywood, specifically about her identity, and that might be a great way to set up the song, "Love Goddess."

[3:26] Bettina Covo: Oh, perfect way to set it up. Yeah, I'll start. She was discovered by Willan Sheehan in Tijuana, Mexico, where the father and young Rita were teamed up as the Dancing Cansinos. In performing down there, Sheehan, who was from Fox Studios, I believe at the time, found Rita, thought she was fabulous, and brought her to Hollywood. She then went to Columbia Pictures, and that was headed by Harry Cohn, who ran a very successful studio. She started out doing Latin roles because she was still dark-haired. They saw her as a dancer first. Those were her first roles. Then something happened, and Harry Cohn saw something in her and said, I think I can turn you into a star, but we're going to have to do a few things to change you. We're going to Americanize you. We're going to erase the Latin Spanish side of you, and that's going to help create the star mechanism.

[4:28] Cheryl Stern: The name was changed to Rita Hayworth. Hayworth was Rita's mother's maiden name. It made sense that Margarita became Rita Hayworth, a fabulous name, and so Anglo-sounding. The big thing was she lost a lot of weight, and they did this very painful and long, it's a long process to raise the hairline with electrolysis. In those days, it was not like now, very painful, and she hated the treatments and dreaded them, everyone, but did it. It really changed the look of her face by changing that hairline. Then they dyed it red, and she had this incredible hair, and making that the red bombshell hair, she was on fire. It worked, for better or for worse. It worked in terms of what he was looking for.

[5:25] Bettina Covo: This song is a dramatization of that.

[5:28] Cheryl Stern: Correct. It shows the whole process, but Harry Cohn was a very powerful, very manipulative, very mean-spirited man at heart. He constantly was after Rita, and she was able to say no to him, which is something we bring up in the show, because everyone thought Rita Hayworth was sort of a victim of all of her circumstances. But this is one instance where she is not a victim, and she will not give in to this man who was her boss, who controlled her career. It's a very interesting relationship, and that's why "Love Goddess" has sort of this odd ending where she says, uh-uh, this ain't going to happen. It's a very powerful song. It also tells a tremendous amount of the story of her in Hollywood in one number.

[6:24] Bettina Covo: Just to add to that, we see, and Joe and Hector see, we've come to this all together, that the men in this number are dressed as zoot suits, which is an important element in this era.

[6:36] Cheryl Stern: Absolutely. They are, in Rita, in older Rita's mind, it's all started because she's watching the TV, and she's seeing Madonna videos. She's watching MTV. It's the 80s. And so this whole memory comes back to her in this sort of distorted 80s slash zoot suit fashion. So it has this very current, almost rap feel, and yet it's Harry Cohn, this Jewish movie mogul, rapping. The juxtaposition of those two things were fantastic. I have to tell you.

[7:10] Bettina Covo: It's truly a fever dream.

[7:12] Cheryl Stern: Yes.

[7:15] Bettina Covo: I kind of can't believe what I'm hearing right now. I want the audience to hear it right now, so they know exactly what we're talking about, who performs this song.

[7:20] Cheryl Stern: The lead singer playing Harry Cohn in this number, "Love Goddess," is a wonderful actor named Brian Silliman. And he does a mean Harry Cohn, and he also doubles as Orson Welles. And his Orson Welles is to die for.

[7:35] Bettina Covo: The range.

[7:35] Cheryl Stern: Fantastic. Well, here is "Love Goddess" performed by Brian Silliman.

[7:43] ♪ Musical number: "Love Goddess" — performed by Brian Silliman ♪

[10:21] Bettina Covo: Rapping Harry Cohn. Oh my gosh. This was so wild, but also so effective. This song made me want to punch a hole through the door.

[10:27] Cheryl Stern: Good.

[10:30] Bettina Covo: I was so angry the entire time. This was the only song I listened to where I was not vibing.

[10:39] Cheryl Stern: I know.

[10:39] Bettina Covo: I was just mad.

[10:41] Cheryl Stern: That's good. That's what it... And that's part of what it's about.

[10:43] Bettina Covo: You're not catching me with this catchy melody, Harry Cohn. But also there's like a catchiness and a slickness about it that's so Hollywood movie mogul.

[10:52] Cheryl Stern: Oh my God. Right. It's so Hollywood derogatory. But I got the vibe of "One Night in Bangkok," you know, from Chess.

[10:59] Bettina Covo: Yes. That's interesting. Because it's like, yeah, it's like so slick. And yet there's something sinister going on underneath it. But he starts talking about first electrolysis buzzed away that nasty hairline and precisely all the things that he's done to manipulate her image.

[11:16] Cheryl Stern: Yes. To change her from being someone who appears to be Latin to someone who looks to be the American bombshell. In fact, in my research, I read that she was one of the top two pinup girls during World War II.

[11:27] Bettina Covo: Betty Grable.

[11:28] Cheryl Stern: Actually, number two behind Betty Grable.

[11:29] Bettina Covo: Yeah.

[11:30] Cheryl Stern: And, you know, he's just so slimy in the song that it really, really clicks. Which also plays into the zoot suit imagery, because one of the reasons they were so controversial was because with wartime rations, it was seen as like gaudy and offensive to use that much fabric.

[11:43] Bettina Covo: In order to decorate oneself, it was primarily Latine, Filipino and Black communities that were wearing them, you know, which of course, of course, means that it was unpatriotic and like, they don't belong here. And with that juxtaposition between her hiding her own heritage, and it's that dream thing again, where it's all fused, it's all melding, but the piece of her heritage is always there, it can't go away. But also the zoot suit reference. So the zoot suit riots that happened in World War Two, they shipped all of the soldiers out to LA, California area. From there, they were going to get shipped off to the war. They started, soldiers out there started a riot with all of the young men that were dressed in zoot suits.

And of course, the ones dressed in zoot suits were the Latinos and whoever else was participating in that. They were the ones arrested. Exactly. And she, Rita and Orson went out to LA, and they paid for a large number of those boys' legal fees to get them exonerated from this. And so the zoot suit, there's also a reference, a World War Two reference that's going to be very subtle. But anyone who might know that or care to look that up will understand that analogy as well. It's very powerful. And of course, it's also kind of a nod to Broadway and theater itself with the play zoot suit as well. And the idea, it was the first Chicano play on Broadway, or widely considered to be, right? So it's homages on homages. It's more layered than a zoot suit. Bigger shoulder pads.

[12:22] Teresa Attridge: Well, speaking of homages, in my research of Rita Hayworth, I came across the iconic movie Gilda, which I, to be honest, I had seen the hair flip, but I didn't know much about that movie until this show. And there's an amazing song about Gilda, which is like one of her most iconic roles, we'll say. But so within that discussion of Gilda, though, there's more going on there than just like a recap of she made this amazing film. It talks a lot about her relationship with men and how difficult that was. Can you please set up, they go to bed with Gilda?

[12:50] Bettina Covo: That line is a line of Rita Hayworth's. They go to bed with Gilda, but they wake up with me. So that is something she said, and she thought, and that was kind of true. So I'm sorry, you go ahead.

[13:02] Bettina Covo: So leading up to this song in the show, the nurse is trying to jog her memory, jog Rita's memory and sort of get her out of the dumps. And she devises this game whereby she pulls dresses out of the closet and Rita gets to identify what event that represented in her life. And so what happens is Rita starts looking at all these dresses that represented the relationships with her many husbands. She had five husbands. And then she lands on, then they pull out the Gilda dress. And she says, oh God, not that dress. That dress changed everything. After that, nobody wanted me. Nobody saw me. All they wanted was Gilda. And thus the very famous phrase, they go to bed with Gilda, but they wake up with me, which was really her words.

The song flows from there. And she envisions that Virginia Van Upp, who was her very loyal friend, a real friend, and who wrote the screenplay for Gilda, the nurse morphs into Virginia Van Upp in her mind. And then she has this sparring conversation with Virginia about the men in her lives, about the fact that she's repeating the pattern of basically trying to marry her father and that it doesn't succeed because there are problems there. And she still doesn't know why, but Virginia Van Upp tries to really open the door for her to that information. And it's all done in a tangle.

[14:04] Teresa Attridge: And who's performing on this piece?

[14:06] Bettina Covo: This is the amazing Claudia Moulette from Real Women Have Curves. She's incredible.

[14:12] Teresa Attridge: Friends of the pod!

[14:14] Bettina Covo: Claudia was not on the pod, but we had the writers, Lisa Loomer and Residence Galette. That was our first Broadway show on the pod.

[14:20] Teresa Attridge: We have to shout out that show as often as possible.

[14:22] Bettina Covo: She was the villain and she was brilliant. And it also is Carmine Alers again. And the whole ensemble. And Younger Rita, of course, excuse me. It's the fabulous Gabby Boera as well. And the whole company of your residency, is that correct?

[14:34] Bettina Covo: Yes, yes.

[14:36] Teresa Attridge: Fantastic. Let's see if I can nail this one. Here is They Go to Bed with Gilda, performed by Claudia Moulette, Carmine Alers, Gabby Boera, and the company of the residency of Rita: More Than a Memory.

[16:25] ♪ Musical number: "They Go to Bed with Gilda" — performed by Claudia Moulette, Carmine Alers, Gabby Boera, and the company of the residency ♪

[23:01] Bettina Covo: The show is very much about identity and Rita trying to find her true identity and have that unmasked. And that's what the ending is about. And her identity is lost throughout her life. Between her career, between the men she married, between her relationship with her father, she lost herself. And it's all about finding self.

[24:27] Cheryl Stern: Every time. She wakes up with her more than she'd ever wake up with anyone else. And in that moment where you really wake up with yourself, when you finally have that moment where you understand yourself, and for her to come to that moment, which again, donate money and then see the show, obviously, if you want to know what happens. But I think there's something so beautiful about the way in which you are able to honor the reality of what has happened, while also being able to celebrate what it means to get as far as you get after everything you've been through.

[25:00] Bettina Covo: Nicely put. You know, it is a celebration as much as it is an unveiling. It is a sunset. It really is.

[25:07] Cheryl Stern: Thank you. Thank you. With that, Pals, I think you should introduce this game because Barnacles, we have an incredible Backstage Pass exclusive moment. It is Pals game night, baby!

[25:18] Pauls Macs: This is not the first game I've created in the history.

[25:23] Cheryl Stern: No, but every time it's you, it's extra special.

[25:26] Pauls Macs: Right, but you named the game.

[25:31] Cheryl Stern: It's just because I like a pun. Femme T. Fatale, like M.T. for musical theater.

[25:36] Pauls Macs: Great, great. So this game is called Femme T. Fatale. Thank you, Game Master Teresa. I'm supposed to do Game Master tonight. So the game that I came up with for you, Cheryl and Bettina, is I am very interested in the Femme Fatale archetype. I always have been. I don't think I've ever shared this on the pod, but my favorite comic book writer, his name is Ed Brubaker, and he actually wrote a comic book series called Fatale. And for those of you who don't know what a Fatale is, it's a fictional or real-life archetype of a dangerously alluring woman who uses her charm to ensnare men, often leading to their destruction or ruin. Rita Hayworth very famously played this character in Gilda. And so I was just thinking, okay, I was watching clips of Gilda.

What musical theater character would we like to see attempt to play a Femme Fatale character, either because they'd be really good at it, or maybe because they would fail at it and be hilarious? You can have your own reasoning, whatever it might be. But who from the canon would you like to see attempt a Femme Fatale? And for what reason? Do you have your answer? Cheryl, do you want to go first?

[26:38] Cheryl Stern: Yes, we have our answer.

[26:41] Pauls Macs: Yes, Cheryl, please.

[26:47] Cheryl Stern: The one that would be great at it, I think is Evita. Come on, Evita Peron as Gilda. Because she knows how to use her powers to ensnare men. They talk about that in the show. She does it really well. And you guys gave me that idea earlier when we started talking about Evita. And then I would also, just for fun, and because he's so flexible and brilliant, I want to see Nathan Lane as Willy Loman.

[27:03] Bettina Covo: Oh my gosh, absolutely. You're changing my life.

[27:10] Cheryl Stern: But you can. You can go for it. Nathan Lane is everything to me. That is my favorite Broadway actor of all time. He can do it all, right? Give me Femme Fatale Nathan Lane. Honestly, the broadcage? Look at that.

[27:19] Bettina Covo: Oh, yes. There we go.

[27:31] Pauls Macs: Yeah. Bettina, do you want to go next?

[27:33] Bettina Covo: Yeah, so my answer is kind of weird, but I really would love to see, it's going to be weird, Robert Preston. I just think—

[27:41] Cheryl Stern: I love, we love weird.

[27:42] Bettina Covo: We love the weird here. Because I adored him in the film, Victor Victoria. I just thought he was beyond brilliant. And when he comes out at the end doing the Spanish fan number as her being him, being her, I just thought that was hysterical, wonderful, and beautiful at the same time. And I would love to see him play a Femme Fatale. That just would kill me.

[28:07] Cheryl Stern: Bettina, you can't resist a layer.

[28:10] Bettina Covo: Exactly.

[28:11] Cheryl Stern: You can't resist a layer. You're even wearing a scarf for the listeners at home.

[28:15] Bettina Covo: It's the summertime. Well, we'll say late spring. It's late spring and you're wearing a scarf. So there we go. We're all about layers here.

[28:21] Cheryl Stern: Yes. Because it's a lifestyle, okay? It's a lifestyle to be a scarf person.

[28:27] Bettina Covo: That's great. I love it.

[28:28] Pauls Macs: I see you, Bettina.

[28:30] Bettina Covo: I'm shy about scarves. I stopped wearing them May 1st, and like scarf season's over. Sometimes I extend to May or March 1st. I'm like, that's the end of scarf season.

[28:39] Cheryl Stern: Oh, wow.

[28:39] Bettina Covo: June 1st. Like, yeah, I had a scarf day. I did.

[28:43] Cheryl Stern: Well, you know, it gets cold in New York.

[28:44] Bettina Covo: It's windy.

[28:45] Cheryl Stern: And quite frankly, I wear scarves all the time. That's my signature is scarves, so.

[28:49] Bettina Covo: Well, you look fantastic. The audience can't see you right now, but trust me, Bettina is rocking this scarf. Teresa, do you want to go next?

[28:58] Teresa Attridge: Yes. I, of course, have two answers.

[29:01] Pauls Macs: We'd love two answers.

[29:02] Teresa Attridge: And the first person I thought of, I was like, give Mama Rose her money.

[29:07] Bettina Covo: Oh, that's great.

[29:08] Teresa Attridge: I want to see, I want, Mama Rose is like, I was born too early and started too late. And I was like, but what if you didn't? I want to see her really, someone's going to be like, you're going to play this femme fatale, and you're going to seduce this man. And she's going to be like, have some egg rolls, Mr. Goldstone. Right? Like, it's going to be incredible. But my other answer, and the one that was just for like shits and giggles, I want, hold me, touch me from The Producers. I want the little old lady to go, hold me, touch me, but like full ball gown, dress low, cut to the belly button, because you need to go real far to see the cleavage. Like, I want old women to be hot. Let them be hot.

[29:54] Bettina Covo: Right. And also her famous line, hold me, touch me. I was like, she's, she was born ready. She's off book. She could do it.

[30:03] Pauls Macs: That's great.

[30:04] Pauls Macs: Kels, as a self-proclaimed fan of the femme fatale archetype, who is your femme T?

[30:10] Cheryl Stern: Well, it's so funny because I went the funny, goofy, stupid direction. I'm so upset.

[30:15] Pauls Macs: And I was just like, I would love to see Julie Andrews as Mary Poppins or as Maria von Trapp, like introduced into those femme fatale roles and like trying with that accent. That's such a specific voice.

[30:21] Bettina Covo: Just like a very posh femme fatale.

[30:28] Pauls Macs: Yeah, exactly. But to like take those mannerisms, you know, and it would either be incredible or like fall flat on its face.

[30:36] Bettina Covo: No, pals, like you're so inspired because the first thing that comes to mind is like a sexy, jazzy version of I Have Confidence.

[30:42] Cheryl Stern: Yeah.

[30:43] Bettina Covo: I Have Confidence in sunshine.

[30:47] Pauls Macs: Right. Like she's just, if you slow that song down a little bit, it's suddenly very evocative.

[30:53] Cheryl Stern: I once did a cabaret where I slowed down the song I Can't Say No from Oklahoma.

[30:58] Bettina Covo: Oh.

[30:58] Cheryl Stern: And I made it like a chair dance and it was like very, very sexy.

[31:04] Pauls Macs: What we're hearing is that the real femme fatale that we're talking about in this podcast is pals.

[31:10] Bettina Covo: Pals, this is your moment.

[31:11] Cheryl Stern: Kato Annie says, as soon as I sit on their laps, something inside of me snaps.

[31:16] Bettina Covo: I mean, God, right?

[31:18] Pauls Macs: That's great. I'm just realizing I once saw a Sweeney Todd with a Mrs. Lovett. And we talked, Mrs. Lovett is a frequent answer on this game. Sweeney Todd is just one of our MVPs of the games. But you know, the thing about this particular Mrs. Lovett was she embraced her sexuality as a tool. No other Mrs. Lovett that I've seen.

[31:29] Bettina Covo: Wow.

[31:37] Pauls Macs: It was a very, very distinct performance. She was like walking sex. I just appreciated that actor's take on that role.

[31:45] Cheryl Stern: I know that this is an adult podcast, but the amount of jokes I was about to make about meat pies and rolling.

[31:52] Bettina Covo: We need to stop here.

[31:55] Pauls Macs: I think we should stop. I know the thing with the game is sometimes you just keep going. But Cheryl, Bettina, praises on praises on praises. The show is beautiful. The script and the music, everything is gorgeous. All of these elements.

[32:08] Cheryl Stern: And I do want to say that I am so, so happy whenever a show comes across our desk where I can see women of a certain age in musical theater step into the spotlight and be stars. The fact that we have 67-year-old Rita as the star of this, and we can really see the beauty and the power of an artist who has honed their craft. I mean, same with this idea that Rita was the woman of the moment and then faded into almost obscurity and no one knew the real her. And this happens with actresses all the time is that, you know, you're told you're like, you have a peak, you have a clock. Your time is going to run out and you won't be relevant anymore. And I really just cannot emphasize enough how much I love to see an older woman on stage remind me not only why I love this, but how much better it can be and can get and should be. So thank you so much for making sure that we have vehicles for women to continue in the craft that we love, both in writing and in performance. I'm absolutely obsessed.

[33:10] Bettina Covo: God bless you, Teresa.

[33:12] Cheryl Stern: Bettina and I are the same age. We won't divulge what, but we're in the realm of Rita. And so to hear that means so much. And as someone who's still acting and wanting to continue my career, the courage that you instilled in me just by what you just said to continue to fight the fight is so meaningful. So thank you for that. That's incredible.

[33:34] Bettina Covo: Yes, thank you.

[33:35] Pauls Macs: I think while this piece will appeal to all audiences, as I was just in this podcast, the experience of this podcast right now, what I was observing was as you were talking, Cheryl, Bettina, and Teresa, there were moments of identification in the storytelling that Teresa just immediately understood and tapped into as a female identifying person that is not of my experience. I can intellectually understand those things and I can appreciate this piece, but I do think that your piece speaks so powerfully to a certain population, and that is great. That is exactly what theater's for, and we need more of that because those populations have not been served as they should have been. And thank you for holding that space, pals. That's allyship, baby.

[34:16] Cheryl Stern: You're both incredible. Thank you.

[34:17] Bettina Covo: Really appreciate this opportunity to share our story with you.

[34:21] Pauls Macs: Wow. We appreciate you so much. Thank you, Cheryl and Bettina, for being here. Thank you, Barnacles, to everyone for listening. We appreciate you.

[34:30] Pauls Macs: All right. We'll see you next time. Bye, Barnacles!

[34:34] Cheryl Stern: All right. Bye, you Barnacles out there. Thank you for listening.