This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to give you an inclusive look behind the scenes. We're interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:42] Teresa Attridge: Hello, Barnacles. Hello, everyone. Hello. Hi, Barnacles. Welcome. Hello. Welcome to a very, very meaningful and moving discussion on Backstage Pass. The musical we're discussing today is called Dandelion, and it deals with issues of mental health in ways that are just both hilarious and also heartbreaking. We are so, so pleased to welcome two of the three members of the team from Dandelion, Jess and Colleen. Do you want to say hello?

[1:08] Colleen Francis: Hi.

[1:09] Jessica Francis Fichter: Hi. We're so happy to have you.

[1:11] Colleen Francis: Thank you guys for having us.

[1:13] Teresa Attridge: So I realized as soon as Colleen said hi, and then I said hi, that we sound so identical because we are sisters. Oh, my God. It's gonna it might be hard to tell the voices apart at points. And you know what? I kind of love that, to be honest. Is this our first sibling pair on the podcast?

[1:30] Pauls Macs: I think so. I really think you guys are our first.

[1:33] Teresa Attridge: Wow. You're our first.

[1:35] Pauls Macs: Whoa. He's bringing it home.

[1:37] Teresa Attridge: Oh, my God. And I mean, nothing more apropos than a show about family. You know what I mean?

[1:43] Colleen Francis: Absolutely.

[1:44] Teresa Attridge: It'll be pretty easy based off the power dynamics to be able to tell which one's the oldest and which one's the youngest. So we'll let everyone guess. But I think it should become pretty apparent.

[1:56] Colleen Francis: I'm not gonna hazard a guess tonight.

[1:58] Teresa Attridge: Oh, yeah. No, as an older sister, I'm already being like a little too discerning. I'm like, no, yes. I'll let you take a stab at the end, like when we get to the end.

[2:06] Pauls Macs: Right. And we'll get into it. The sibling dynamic in this show is actually one of my favorite parts of the show. But I mean, we'll get into that. Certainly. Pals, did we want to introduce our guests? Give it their little bio, our little book report?

[2:21] Pauls Macs: We absolutely shall. Before we do that, I just want to give a little background about how Dandelion came to join us on the pod today. This is another show that I was lucky enough to encounter at the National Lions for Musical Theater Conference and Festival all the way back in October. Yeah. When I was there, I was talking with Jess and was discussing the show, and the subject matter just really struck me. Funnily enough, I just have thought about it since our conversation. And I even, funnily enough, I still have barnacles can't see it. I still have the business card that you gave me about the show. Somehow, of all the cards I got at NAMMT, this is a very well-designed card, I must say.

[3:02] Colleen Francis: That's the OG card that was made in like Microsoft Word in 2017.

[3:06] Pauls Macs: Pals, you have to keep it. That is a collector's item. There's only like 12 left.

[3:11] Teresa Attridge: But I just took it out of my wallet about a month ago and I said, I really want to talk to that show. I'm going to invite them on Backstage Pass because the subject matter of that show is important. And I've continued to follow the show a bit in its development path. You did some work at Michigan State University. I guess the state of Michigan is having a moment on our show because we just did a show, Miss America, that was workshopped at the University of Michigan. So go Michigan.

[3:36] Pauls Macs: Listen, Michigan is really thriving right now. They're doing it. They're a hot spot. We're go blue, we're go green, you know what I mean?

[3:41] Teresa Attridge: Our new musicals. They're super good at keeping their talent in state, too.

[3:46] Colleen Francis: Michigan. They do.

[3:47] Pauls Macs: Absolutely. Those really talented musical theater kids, they're like, stay here.

[3:52] Colleen Francis: They're like the Kalamazoo Promise, baby.

[3:54] Pauls Macs: There it is. Which is amazing because it's so cold there.

[3:57] Teresa Attridge: It's so cold. I was really excited to get to review the piece and really dive in and understand it on a more fundamental level and was so excited to learn how hilarious it is. But also, as I said, when I opened the show, very, very heartfelt, an exploration of mental health that I think mental health has been explored in the musical theater before with shows like Next to Normal. But I think this particular show will appeal to especially younger audience members. But before we get there, I would love to introduce you. Here we go. All right, Colleen, we're going to start with you. No guesses on siblings yet. Colleen Francis is a Nashville-based songwriter, producer, and performer with a degree in audio production and music business from Belmont University.

She has worked as a songwriter for over a decade, writing across genres including musical theater, pop, country, and rap, with music featured in TV shows such as Selling Sunset, The Young and the Restless, and All-American. Under her pop artist alias Frankie C, her vocals have appeared in ads for brands including American Eagle, Target, Walmart, and Google Photos. Dandelion marks her first musical theater project, and she is currently developing new work that blends a commercial pop sensibility with the theater space.

[5:04] Colleen Francis: Oh, that was so good. You made me sound very legit. That was great.

[5:07] Pauls Macs: That was my goal. You know what made you sound legit is all the stuff that you did.

[5:11] Colleen Francis: Yeah, you sounded legit. That was your bio. TV and film.

[5:15] Pauls Macs: Before we go to Jess, now that we've blown our minds about the sibling connection, can I ask, how did you find yourself working in the musical theater space? Jess, did you recruit Colleen? How did that happen?

[5:25] Jessica Francis Fichter: She sure did. She recruited me. She said, come over here. We're doing musicals now.

[5:30] Colleen Francis: This is what we're doing. Come on. Okay.

[5:32] Jessica Francis Fichter: Kid and Loser, we're doing musicals now. In case we're still trying to guess who the older sibling is. Dandelion was originally a straight play, and Jess approached me and was like, you're writing songs, right? You're doing that. I was like, yeah, I'm trying. She was like, well, we really think this would be better as a musical. I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'll give it a shot. The first songs, the first 10 songs were really rough, you guys, really rough, but it was a great learning process.

[6:04] Pauls Macs: You're playing all 10 of those songs tonight.

[6:06] Jessica Francis Fichter: Not featured. North was an OG song.

[6:09] Colleen Francis: I was about to say. I have to tell you about North. My son reacting to North today, but it's a tease. It's a tease for later.

[6:12] Teresa Attridge: Oh my God. All right. Well, Jess, so excited to introduce you. After meeting you at NAMMT, the podcast world is amazing. So Jess Fichter is a South Carolina-based director, playwright, and teaching artist currently serving as the executive director of Trust Us Theater in Columbia, South Carolina.

[6:27] Jessica Francis Fichter: Yeah. I'm so not that anymore. I'm the artistic director of Nashville Repertory Theater, and I now live in Nashville.

[6:33] Pauls Macs: Everything else. Do you know Caitlin Spear?

[6:37] Jessica Francis Fichter: Of course I know Caitlin. I was her nanny. I was Nora's nanny.

[6:43] Pauls Macs: I heard about her audition for Frozen. We're going to get into that later.

[6:48] Jessica Francis Fichter: I can't talk about it right now.

[6:52] Pauls Macs: You have no idea what we've done.

[6:55] Jessica Francis Fichter: I can't decide if I should cut this or if I should keep it.

[6:57] Pauls Macs: You should keep it. I feel like we should.

[6:59] Jessica Francis Fichter: This is a very recent transition, like the past month.

[7:02] Pauls Macs: I will ask if I am allowed to say Nora's name on the podcast because that is a child, but at the very least, I know Caitlin Spear and Caitlin Spear is one of the most amazing people I know. She runs all of the costume tracks backstage. She is the quick change coordinator at Nashville Wardrobe Supervisor and is an all-star. If that makes it in. Hi, Caitlin.

[7:22] Colleen Francis: Hi, Caitlin. I love you, Caitlin.

[7:24] Pauls Macs: We're keeping that for sure.

[7:26] Jessica Francis Fichter: All right. I think I'm going to keep this.

[7:28] Pauls Macs: I love her so much.

[7:30] Jessica Francis Fichter: But I'm going to take another run at it. This is all done totally.

[7:31] Pauls Macs: Yes, please. Let's actually introduce you instead of freaking out.

[7:35] Jessica Francis Fichter: I'm going to go nice and slow though. Jess Fichter is the artistic director for Nashville Repertory Theater and lives in Nashville. She has directed and taught in various locations, including NYC, where she earned an MFA in directing from the Actor Studio Drama School. She is the book writer of Dandelion, an original musical, which we're so excited to have on the podcast today. Jess, welcome.

[7:53] Jessica Francis Fichter: Hi.

[7:58] Pauls Macs: Wow. Oh, my gosh. Much like a dandelion, I'm blown away. There's so much talent in here, you guys. I waited at least five minutes to make a pun, pals. I'm so proud of me.

[8:09] Teresa Attridge: I'm proud of you, too. We're proud of you.

[8:12] Pauls Macs: Oh, my gosh. We're having so much fun already. Well, let's get started. So you're siblings, and Dandelion was a straight play, and then Jess was like, you're coming over here. But you have a third collaborator on this piece, but we'd love to know how the piece became a piece in the first place, became a straight play, and then we'd love to know how it transitioned to a musical, and then how it got to the place where it is today.

[8:32] Colleen Francis: Amazing. Let's begin at the beginning. Are you ready for your second cool relationship story? I'm screaming.

[8:38] Jessica Francis Fichter: I'm leaning forward so close in my chair.

[8:41] Jessica Francis Fichter: In another day, time, and life, before I got my MFA and have been an artistic director at multiple places, I was a theater teacher. Haley was my student in seventh and eighth grade, and then I moved to the high school, and she was my student again in 11th and 12th grade. I helped her get into college and navigate the college process because there are some parallels. Although not her family necessarily, there are some strong parallels with Jane and Haley. Jane is the main character in Dandelion, and she ended up at the last minute getting into school. When she was about a junior in college, we were then friends, and she said, Jess, I think we should work on a play together. I think we should use some of this and write it down. And so Haley and I just started, and that is how Dandelion came to be.

[9:36] Teresa Attridge: I'm crying. That's beautiful. There's something really special, I think, about relationships that go from mentorships to friendships. You know what I mean? There's something, I think, particularly precious about seeing someone grow up, in a sense, and then raising your own project together. It feels intergenerational in a way. That is so stunning. I will say that is, I think, also the first time we've had a student-teacher-turned-collaborator on the podcast. So just so many different variations of family on here. That's beautiful.

[10:08] Colleen Francis: Absolutely. And to respond to that, one of the most striking elements of this piece is the portrayal of family, and how much that rings true. And on that note, before we go too much further, why don't I just go ahead and read the synopsis, so we can all know our main characters, what show we're chatting about. Dandelion tells the poignant and uplifting story of Jane, a young woman who faces profound questions of responsibility and sacrifice when she must decide between attending college in pursuit of her lifelong dream, or staying home to care for her mother, who is struggling with severe mental illness and addiction. Jane navigates the ups and downs of her senior year of high school, while her father tries to lighten the mood with his trademark dad jokes.

Her brother urges her to assert her own autonomy, and her goofy best friend Gabby is always by her side to offer emotional support and wacky antics. At the same time, Lila faces her own inner demons, personified on stage as The Voices, as she loses herself amid a sea of doctor's appointments, prescriptions, and hallucinatory episodes. When Jane leaves for a welcome weekend event at North College, Lila's illness reaches a self-destructive turning point, forcing Jane to question whether her mother will be able to live alone safely without Jane, her little dandelion. As family tensions and mounting pressures only worsen, and Lila continually begs for her to stay, Jane has to make the impossible decision to leave in the hopes of making her dreams, and Lila's, come true. As the Barnacles can hear, we call our fans Barnacles, by the way, because they stick with us.

[11:25] Colleen Francis: That's adorable.

[11:26] Teresa Attridge: Because they stick with us. Thank you! I made it up when we had no fans.

[11:35] Teresa Attridge: First episode, I was like, pals, we have to name the fans.

[11:37] Pauls Macs: He's like, we don't have any.

[11:39] Teresa Attridge: And I was like, but everyone, everyone wants to belong once they know that they could be a Barnacle.

[11:44] Pauls Macs: I love it.

[11:45] Teresa Attridge: But as our listeners, the Barnacles can hear, this journey of the show is both really fun, because it's about someone getting ready to go to college with their very best friend. Then it also deals with the subject of mental health and family struggles, and how those can stand in the way of a person being able to really live their life. Perhaps you could tell us about how you came to write the show initially, how you took the subject matter of getting into college and sculpted it into the journey of the show.

[12:13] Jessica Francis Fichter: Well, I think one of the goals for me with this piece is to write a piece about young women that is not Mean Girls, and is not Heathers, and isn't necessarily the stereotypes that we think of as 16, 17 and 18 year old young women, but more that captures the actual experience of growing up from adolescence into adulthood, and the real angst that comes with that, not the perceived, you know, funny angst of friendships. And I think a lot of times, there's a caretaking factor for young women and women throughout their life, that puts a certain type of pressure on decisions. And so we felt like this sort of time, capturing this time of childhood turning into adulthood, and some of those responsibilities that you're trying to figure out how to navigate becoming an adult, really aligned with the discussion of mental health and the caretaking of a parent.

[13:18] Colleen Francis: I was going to say, one of the things I really appreciated about the piece that I don't think we talk about a lot, even in sort of just the general sort of mental health discussion, is when we talk about parentified children, and the dichotomy of having to care for your caretaker and what that actually looks like. I think that when we talk about the idea of growing up, it's also very hard to talk about growing up through the lens of having felt like an adult from childhood. This person who has, from a very, very young age, because Jane is also young Jane, we get a lot of memory play in this show. Children learn quite young how to manipulate the environment as best they can to survive it. And for a child, it's often placating an emotionally either immature and unstable parent.

And it's how do I make you happy? How do I make you not freak out? How do I do this, the responsibility you feel just really innately, so that you feel both so old and so young at the same time. And I think that one of the things I really loved about this piece was it felt like a very accurate portrayal of that struggle, because we get to see Jane with like her mother, right, which is the central relationship. But we also see Jane with her best friend, Gabby. And so we see like that, like, we're teens, you know, like, we're doing this, and we're trying to figure out what we're going to do with our lives. And so we get like those moments of levity and seeing Jane being her age. And then we also have that in contrast with Jane not getting to be her age. And I also loved Gabby, I love a best friend.

[14:48] Jessica Francis Fichter: Totally hilarious breath of fresh air. So but it's like such a trope to the friend who goes through your childhood window. I was like, Oh, we're back, baby. This is it. This is my favorite trope. Before we named her, we called her Kimmy Gibbler.

[15:01] Colleen Francis: We did.

[15:03] Jessica Francis Fichter: Love that. And now she's like Kimmy Gabber.

[15:05] Colleen Francis: Exactly. She comes from that sitcom era. I'm always there. I can climb in whenever you need me to be there. Or when you don't want me there. I'm not going through the door. I'm just going to be I'm coming in whenever I want to.

[15:18] Jessica Francis Fichter: Exactly. And like, you know, I don't know if you guys watched Full House growing up or any of that. But there's always

[15:23] Pauls Macs: Oh, I'm from San Francisco.

[15:24] Colleen Francis: Oh, my gosh.

[15:25] Pauls Macs: Yeah, you've got

[15:26] Colleen Francis: I'm a 90s kid. I watched Full House.

[15:28] Jessica Francis Fichter: There's always this moment where there's some sort of life lesson or some sort of, you know, sit down where they get to touch on something deep and emotional. But for the most part, it's just playful and silly. But they are dealing with some complex subject matters occasionally. And like, when we started this project, it is such a heavy topic matter. I think as we began to realize that we had that kind of fun sitcom 90s inspired voice inside us, and we wanted to lean into that because it made these life lessons a little bit more palatable. And Kimmy Gibbler was the comedic relief that saved us all turned Gabby. But I also think that saves your piece saves the audience. I think you have to offer them those moments of comedic relief. Otherwise, the tension gets really hard to bear.

[16:14] Teresa Attridge: I think this is the perfect opportunity to set the song North because I feel like it really demonstrates those sensibilities of the sitcom really well. I believe it talks about this friendship between Gabby and Jane so well, and I just want the audience to hear this music. So would you please set up North?

[16:29] Jessica Francis Fichter: So North is this exciting moment at the beginning of the show where Jane has just kind of procured her college essay to submit her application and they are fantasizing. She and her best friend Gabby are fantasizing about what it would be like to go to North College. And it's just supposed to capture that excitement, that young age of being 17 and just thinking about all the dreams and possibilities of what's to come.

[16:57] Colleen Francis: I love that set up. That was great. And who is performing this song?

[17:00] Jessica Francis Fichter: We have Liana Saw Anna, and we have Hannah Burnett singing this song. And this was recorded over the summer after we did our New York 29 hour reading.

[17:10] Pauls Macs: Fantastic. Here is North performed by Liana Saw Anna and Hannah Burnett.

[17:16] ♪ Musical number: "North" — performed by Liana Saw Anna and Hannah Burnett ♪

[20:05] Teresa Attridge: This song is so much fun.

[20:15] Colleen Francis: Yay, I love it.

[20:17] Jessica Francis Fichter: It's so girlhood, do you know what I mean?

[20:21] Pauls Macs: I've never experienced girlhood, but I see what you're saying.

[20:23] Jessica Francis Fichter: Yeah, I mean you just did, pal.

[20:25] Pauls Macs: Now I know what that is.

[20:26] Jessica Francis Fichter: You heard the song. You know how it feels.

[20:29] Colleen Francis: I just love the way it romanticizes going to a college that's very, very cold and picking an unemployable major. That line had me cracking up. When I was listening to it, I wrote down the words buddy comedy. And that's the thing, in such a tragic or difficult piece, to start with this song, I think is really, really effective because it sets up the hope and optimism of these two characters before you see the difficulties that Jane encounters trying to make the decision, do I really, really go? It's such a powerful way to tell us about their relationship, tell us about their excitement. It's so, so palpable in the song.

[21:05] Jessica Francis Fichter: I agree. I also will say, when you're from a warm place, when you think of moving to a cold place, all you think about is how it's going to be a cold place.

[21:11] Colleen Francis: Yeah, that's like, I'm not even kidding. When I moved from California to New York, and the first day it hit below 40 degrees, I cried.

[21:22] Jessica Francis Fichter: So I actually had that experience. I looked at the thermometer and cried.

[21:26] Colleen Francis: Yeah, you did. Well, I was visiting Northeastern. You know, she was giving us the campus tour, the tour guide, and she said, and there's tunnels, so you can go from your dorm to class and your PJs and never have to see the outside. And everybody was like, yay, that sounds amazing. And I was like, I can't do this.

[21:39] Jessica Francis Fichter: It's not functional.

[21:48] Colleen Francis: You're like, I'm going to pay how much money a year to be a mole person? And they're like, that's the amenity, it's the tunnels.

[21:55] Jessica Francis Fichter: That's hilarious.

[21:56] Colleen Francis: I'm not going to lie, that does sound pretty dope. Like it's giving Avatar the last-

[21:59] Jessica Francis Fichter: Or Disney World, right? Where like at Disney World, there's tunnels so that people don't have to see the workers as they're like going to practice.

[22:04] Colleen Francis: I've heard about those.

[22:05] Jessica Francis Fichter: I want to see that. I've always wanted to go there.

[22:07] Colleen Francis: I have to tell you, I am a dad. Today, I was playing the songs as I was making him snack. And I will do that sometimes as I'm just like mentally prepping for the episode. I played North and he just looked at me and he kind of started to smile. He started to like bop up and down.

[22:20] Jessica Francis Fichter: Oh, baby boy, oh my God.

[22:23] Colleen Francis: And then it ended, he said, daddy play song again?

[22:27] Jessica Francis Fichter: Yes.

[22:28] Colleen Francis: You know it's a hit when he wants it again.

[22:32] Pauls Macs: The children are the most real thing. That baby is going to Northwestern. You heard it here first.

[22:36] Colleen Francis: Oh, he also watched the Tonys and at the end of the Tonys, he was like, again? I was like, we can't do that.

[22:42] Jessica Francis Fichter: It's live theater, but it will be on YouTube later.

[22:45] Pauls Macs: I like that that was the lesson, pals. You're like, this is live.

[22:49] Jessica Francis Fichter: It's theater.

[22:49] Pauls Macs: This is the first thing you're going to learn.

[22:52] Colleen Francis: Oh my God, amazing.

[22:52] Jessica Francis Fichter: I love that children-

[22:53] Colleen Francis: How is that so cool?

[22:54] Jessica Francis Fichter: Children can be the best critics or fans.

[22:57] Colleen Francis: So I feel honored.

[22:59] Jessica Francis Fichter: You said that this was an OG song. This was like one of the first ones that got written.

[23:02] Colleen Francis: Yes, so when we first started writing, Jess and I would brainstorm a scene song. We would set a kitchen-

[23:10] Jessica Francis Fichter: I think that's really worthwhile work, and I occasionally have just contemplated for myself the things that I experienced in high school that have then shaped me as an adult. And only recently I've thought to myself, oh, maybe I act in that way because of that thing that happened to me. And I think exploring those connections is valuable.

[24:10] Colleen Francis: Absolutely. I think that's really, really brave and really courageous.

[24:40] Jessica Francis Fichter: That actually brings up for me a very sort of interesting question is, at least one of you I hear has been therapized in some sort of capacity, I'm assuming both. But how does the experience of like going to therapy and being more familiar with sort of like these relationships and coping mechanisms and like personal adaptations, how does that play into the work of writing characters who are both maybe not getting the care they need, but also receiving care that might not necessarily be working? When you talk about your own relationship to mental health, and writing characters who have a more fraught relationship with that, what is that process like and being able to be like, oh, okay, am I writing from a place of knowing too much? Am I writing from a place, you know, so what is the relationship of making sure that the characters know what they need to know, not necessarily what you know?

[25:59] Colleen Francis: It's interesting, because especially I think this question is best answered through the lens of Lila. When we started writing this, I initially was coming through personal experiences with mental illness and addiction through friendships that I was in at the time, but I had not gone to therapy. I had not really studied much about it. I had only just recently learned myself, you know, the word anxiety. We started this project, when Jess?

[26:46] Jessica Francis Fichter: In 2018.

[26:47] Colleen Francis: 2018. And I think since then, there's been this huge push for just mental health in general and openness and talking about it. I didn't start my own therapy journey until 2019. And learning so much in general about mental health made me come back to the table and really look at that entire character from a new lens, which is just how do we go back and make sure we're not villainizing mental health in any way. And also, I came with an understanding of the system that we treat mental health within and how it doesn't always offer what different people need. And I think that that really shaped the story into what it is now.

[27:29] Jessica Francis Fichter: I think the conversation of mental health, specifically in theater, but in general, often centers the person who's experiencing the mental health crisis, which is great and very important. But there are ripple effects that go beyond the person experiencing the crisis. That crisis is often a family crisis, a friend crisis, a community crisis. And we don't have the systems in place to deal with these crises. And I don't think that the conversation around the ripple effects has really started. You know, I think we kind of explore in the piece, Jane trying to go to the doctor to even try to understand what has happened in the past. But she can't because of HIPAA laws, but they only have 72 hours to hold someone.

So you're sending them back into an environment where the person has no real understanding of what is happening. And if the person experiencing the crisis doesn't use the resources handed to them at the hospital, which if they're in the middle of psychosis, they may not understand those resources. You end up in this loop. And the loop is not just the person experiencing it. It's like the family. I'm imagining like that ball you pull a bingo ball out of, it's like the family circling around it. And so I think for me, I also wanted to explore what it means for other folks and have that conversation.

[28:59] Colleen Francis: And then like, that's kind of a period statement. And the other thing is, I have been a woman in health care. And we don't love women when they're pregnant or having mental health crises.

[29:14] Jessica Francis Fichter: And so I think there's another element there that we were interested in the relationship between the health care system and women.

[29:22] Colleen Francis: Yeah. Absolutely. I relate to that. I very recently in the past couple of weeks, actually, I have one of my best friends had to be admitted into psychiatric care and got a BP1 diagnosis. And so we've been talking a lot recently about how they're navigating the health care system and the ways it's just generally not very supportive about the struggle it took to get the right medication after years of trying to figure out what to do. And it took this final time for us to find something that found like even remotely helpful. I mean, Colleen, you were mentioning it, you experienced like mental health stuff with your friends. I have had to 5150 a friend before when we talk about sort of and I also like parentification and like dealing with addiction and family is like this piece very much I was like, I'm like, it hit a lot of spots for me.

When you read the show, there is so much sensitivity and awareness around those relationships. But it always feels very rooted in something that feels true, right? Like it doesn't feel preachy, but it also doesn't feel like you're demonizing anybody. It is like a very stark portrayal. And I think that musicals are actually really great for these kinds of topics, because it allows you to take the difficult thing that's hard to say and say it in a way that makes it easier for people to hear and to absorb.

[30:51] Jessica Francis Fichter: Yeah, you were the word amen palatable earlier, which I don't love that word because it creates the idea that we basically have to like trick the audience, but it really there's something to it. However, we can educate people or teach people about the mental health crisis. Musical theater can do it in such a palpable way where sometimes people are educated and they don't even realize it. I truly believe in the power of the art form and I think this piece is a great example of it.

[31:01] Colleen Francis: So do we. I think one of the important things when we talk about sort of like Jane and this like going back and forth, you actually have a number that I think really sums that relationship up really beautifully on its own, which is go where you grow. It actually starts with depression speaking to Lila, which I don't think we've actually mentioned this, is that with the voices, we said it in the bio that it's depression, paranoia and rage are characters that interact only with three actors, three actors playing these roles.

[31:29] Jessica Francis Fichter: Yeah, we get to see the manifestation of her mental illness in a way that is deeply humanizing. But then we also see the characters dealing with the collateral of that who are completely unaware. So I think one, this song starting with depression speaking to Lila and we go back to young Jane and Lila interacting together about the story about the dandelion without giving too much away before the song starts. Can you guys tell us a little more about why you decided to put this song in, especially since the memories were something you decided to put into the show later?

[31:57] Colleen Francis: Right. So we knew we were going to get a full sort of workshop production at Truss's Theater where I used to be the artistic director before Nashville. And we had taken a little bit of a break from 2020 to 21. We were just like, okay, COVID, this happened. Let's just take a break on this one. And when we came back to it, I had sent it to the person who was designing the scenery. And when he was talking to me, he said, shout out Jim Hunter, I feel like there's a young version of her somewhere in here. And that's all he said, because he's a wonderful collaborator. So he was just like planting this little seed.

[32:35] Jessica Francis Fichter: Mastermind.

[32:36] Colleen Francis: A dandelion seed. Throw a bed in there and I'm going to walk away. And I woke up in the middle of the night at 4am and retooled the script.

[32:48] Jessica Francis Fichter: Oh my gosh.

[32:49] Colleen Francis: I've done the 4am wake up, saved the show as a director before.

[32:51] Jessica Francis Fichter: I didn't interrupt you. I'm sorry. But like, I can just relate to that. Where it's like my body is working on the play in my sleep and it will wake me up.

[32:59] Colleen Francis: Yes. In this case, we're writing. Like, honestly, if you haven't been woken up at 4am, have you made art? Are you really a true artist?

[33:05] Jessica Francis Fichter: I actually haven't. And I get so jealous when people talk about it. I'm like, I want osmosis.

[33:09] Colleen Francis: No, I'm jealous of you. Because it actually sucks.

[33:11] Jessica Francis Fichter: If it makes you feel better, we all want to go to sleep.

[33:14] Colleen Francis: Jess, so sorry. Please continue.

[33:16] Jessica Francis Fichter: We just, it was, there was a necessary segue. It was, listen, I dream direct all the time. Anyway, so I woke up at 4am, I retooled it and then I text the team and I'm like, hey, will you look at my draft?

[33:29] Colleen Francis: I can see that text. Hey, three whys, three periods.

[33:34] Jessica Francis Fichter: And I think I said, you've done it.

[33:37] Colleen Francis: You've done it.

[33:38] Jessica Francis Fichter: It was so, it was so emotional reading it. I just, I could feel what it brought to the show viscerally. And I was like, you have done it. This is it. We're doing this. And then we had to rewrite the whole show.

[33:48] Colleen Francis: And then we had to retool the whole thing.

[33:50] Jessica Francis Fichter: But it was the right decision.

[33:51] Colleen Francis: Speaking from you.

[33:52] Jessica Francis Fichter: You had to go where you grow, baby.

[33:55] Colleen Francis: That's right. Speaking as dream director to dream director, those are always the best moments in the show. Those are the moments where I'm like, that just changed everything.

[34:02] Jessica Francis Fichter: I'm glad I'm not alone.

[34:03] Colleen Francis: I'm glad I'm not alone. So, and also congratulations for being courageous to do that and having collaborators who are like, yeah, this is it. Do it.

[34:46] Jessica Francis Fichter: You were like, go! And we were doing a reading at, I think my timeline is right here, at Trust Us, like six months before getting ready to open the show to do rewrites. There just was like this gap where Colleen was like, I know what it is. It's like the Dandelion metaphor, but it's the song where she is telling young Jane her dreams for her as well, which is the foundation of who Jane is and becomes. And it's just a struggle. Absolutely. Still clear. Yep. And so Colleen was just like, in the middle of the read-through was like, I got it, young Jane. I got it. So that's how that song happened. And she came back and she said, I've done it. And she did. It is my favorite one that I've written, hands down.

[35:31] Colleen Francis: I love, Colleen, that you were able to tell Jess, you've done it, and then you're able to come back and say, I've done it. I've done it.

[35:39] Jessica Francis Fichter: There's something, and we talked to several songwriters who become musical theater composers on this podcast, like Martin Storrow for King of Pangaea is one who's coming to mind right now. I just find that energy to be so refreshing as well, because it seems to be like an organic quality. You bring a nature into the room that's kind of unexpected, and I absolutely love it. It's a really great decision in every circumstance that I've observed.

[36:01] Colleen Francis: Well, thank you. It doesn't always feel that way, but I love that you say that because we are trained as songwriters to think a little bit more about killing our darlings and being less precious and honoring the story in the moment as much as we can. So with musical theater, it's refreshing for us to be able to come into something, an entire project, and think about it in the context of everything and not just in the context of one song.

[36:28] Jessica Francis Fichter: Absolutely. That's a fantastic setup. Who is performing this song?

[36:31] Colleen Francis: This is the wonderful Sadie Wisks and Jessica Phillips. Here is "Go Where You Grow," performed by Sadie Wisks and Jessica Phillips.

[36:48] ♪ Musical number: "Go Where You Grow" — performed by Sadie Wisks and Jessica Phillips ♪

[39:23] Jessica Francis Fichter: Remember, dandelion, wishes have wings.

[39:33] Colleen Francis: It's so beautiful, and it hurts so bad. The thing that I was struck by in this song, and I wrote some lyrics down that I don't think are actually in the recording. There's some lyrics that end show the song before the recording, and I think for me, they're really important. You build up their wings so they can fly, till they're all grown in the blink of an eye. I guess I don't know who I am anymore. If I'm not a mom, then what the hell am I good for? And in a play where people are grasping for their identity, to have that to be said, if I'm not a mom, who am I? Especially as that relationship is kind of deteriorating. I just felt that that really set up the kind of irony and the beauty of the song, because in that moment, when Jane is young, Lila is able to say, you have to go where you grow. You have to get out and grow. But then as she ages, she wants to keep her close because of her mental illness.

[40:23] Jessica Francis Fichter: One of the things about this song as well, from just looking at it from a writing and lyrical perspective, is that this is one, our introduction to Jane as a writer. This is young Jane writing a story to her mom. So this character, she wants to go to Northwestern. She wants to be a journalist. So we're dealing with someone who does end up ultimately going with wanting to report about facts. But when you look at the song, this is a child who also very much is processing their emotion through art in that way where kids don't actually know that they're working through something. So when she's saying, mom and daughter, and they're the best of friends, and they get blown away, and it's like the clouds turn to monsters.

They're black and blue with rain. And it's like, yeah, it's like, that's your mom's depression, babe. This is a child who's trying to create the image of the things that she wished she could help actually get rid of for her mom. She fights the monsters and everything goes away and they come back together. So it's a story about this child's wish to get rid of everything that her mom is doing so she can do what her mom is telling her to do. While at the same time, the mom is encouraging her to do the thing that also is her greatest fear to happen. So I think that this song sets up both their characters really beautifully. And it's like very secretly giving away what the internal conflict for both of them is through a child's story.

[41:44] Teresa Attridge: That's very well said, Teresa. That was so well said. I got teary eyed when you're explaining. I mean, it is. It's exactly that. There is so much going on under the surface of what's happening in the song. And you picked up on every single piece of that. That's awesome.

[42:00] Jessica Francis Fichter: Yeah. I mean, listen, it's on the page, babe. You did that. You just got to read it. And I will say, so I'm a mom, I have three kids.

[42:06] Colleen Francis: And you're an artistic director? Okay, we're having coffee sometime. I need to ask you how that works.

[42:09] Jessica Francis Fichter: Oh, she's tired, y'all. She's tired. We'll have coffee, or if you'd be willing to, I'd love to ask you about that.

[42:14] Colleen Francis: Yes, yes. But please, please continue. It is really hard. But I think, you know, we've been working on this for eight years. So my son was six when we started this. He's 14 now. And I think my experience as a mother has changed. It has helped with drafts, because I think that there is this goal as a parent, right? You're raising your child to leave you. You're raising your child to be their own human, their own individual in the world, to be able to deal with conflict in life. But you also want to deeply protect them. And there is identity, whether you want it to be or not, wrapped up in being a parent to your children in those young years. And so I think this story, and we found this in every iteration that's been in front of an audience, it speaks to mothers also in a sense of like trying to encourage.

And I haven't sent my child away to college, but I have people tell me, look, I wasn't struggling with mental health, but my entire identity changed. I had to re-find who I was because motherhood was so much of my life for the 18 years prior to the child leave. And so I think there's also that piece of her mental health or not, you're just raising your kids to leave you.

[43:33] Colleen Francis: Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, especially when she refers to her daughter as her dandelion, right? And the dandelion itself is this metaphor for this just really like temporary ephemeral thing. It's like a beautiful thing. And you're the one who blows it away. Like your breath is what carries that wish. So there's something just really poetic and profound about the metaphor and about that. And I've never been a parent, but I was a caretaker. I have a sister with like a very severe disability. And I remember when she first moved into a home, when she turned 18, we had signed her up for a bunch of group homes because they usually take like 20 years, you know what I mean? For people to get on these wait lists.

And our top home called us two weeks later and they're like, we could take her right now. And so our family really had, it was crazy. Our family had to sit down and like really talk about it. And I remember when I was, you know, I was also 18 and my parents were like, Teresa, what do you think we should do? And I was like, I think, you know, and at the time I was like, I feel like if she were neurotypical, she would be leaving for college. And this would be exactly what would happen if she would move out. This is like our chance to give her as normal an experience as possible, quote unquote normal. Right. But I remember when my sister moved out, it was like the gravity in our home suddenly just went out.

We had nothing to orbit around. It was every aspect of our life was touched by the fact that she was gone and it affected us all very, very differently. You know what I mean? Especially with my parents having their own issues. Right. And I remember being essentially like I was very similar to, I was actually more similar to Jordan than Jane, but that's a whole other story. Girl, same. I remember that distance and being like, oh, right. My whole life was centered around this person. And now that person they're not gone, but my, my center of gravity is gone. What do I do without you? And it was one of the reasons I didn't go to college. I made the other choice. So it is very interesting to have read this piece from again, it's not the same situation, but the feelings are very like you're like, oh, yeah, no, that's that hits the deep wound in there.

That's the shadow work that we're talking about earlier. If you haven't experienced that absence before, you know, like of a parent or of someone who is in a caretaking position, you don't know who you are. It's humbling and terrifying.

[45:53] Teresa Attridge: Thanks for joining us on New York Theater Barn's Backstage Pass. Join us next time for part two of our conversation with Jess Francis-Pichter and Colleen Francis about the new musical Dandelion.