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[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to make the exclusive and inclusive. We're interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:31] Pauls Macs: Ken Lee. Yes, Lee. I'm impressed with your work. Cause you've got that thing. That thing. Like I've got too.

[0:49] Teresa Attridge: What thing, Lee?

[0:58] Pauls Macs: Well, you make folks sit up. You make heads turn all around. You command. You control.

[1:07] Teresa Attridge: Yes, you do.

[1:08] Pauls Macs: I do? Yes, yes. Wait, is this where you tell me I'm exactly like you at your age?

[1:14] Teresa Attridge: Definitely not. We're nothing alike.

[1:16] Pauls Macs: Wait. Oh, I mean, you're your own kind of situation with your own kind of battle cry. When the meek fall down in this wonderfully godless town, you need to be a standout. I mean, a stand-up kind of guy.

[1:34] Teresa Attridge: Me? A stand-up kind of guy?

[1:48] Pauls Macs: Oh my. Listen to me, kid. All of New York is gonna know your name from the Starlets to the maitre d's. That's right. When you walk in the room, you'll be the bride. I mean, the groom. They'll stand up till you say, at ease.

[2:05] Teresa Attridge: At ease.

[2:06] Pauls Macs: Cause a John Kenley show with one look and you're certain is one of a kind. From lights up to curtains, they'll all know your name. You'll see. You'll see. Cause it's John, John, John, John Kenley, John Kenley, John Kenley, producer for me.

[2:34] Teresa Attridge: Producer? You're offering me a promotion?

[2:40] Pauls Macs: I'm offering you the chance of a lifetime. You're gonna be my associate producer. This week, we continue our conversation with Jeff Calhoun and Jonathan Brielle about the new musical, A Complicated Woman, playing at Goodspeed Musicals, May 10th through June 2nd. John Kenley was a theater impresario who brought Hollywood stars like Gene Kelly and Ann Miller to Ohio's summer stock stages. But when summer ended, he wintered in Florida where John disappeared and Gene came to life. A Complicated Woman is the intriguing story of a theater legend who had to navigate the joy, pain, and pitfalls of leading a double life. Listen all the way to the end for a game we call Summer Stacked, where we discuss our dream summer stock casts and productions. And if you like what you hear, please like, subscribe, and share.

[3:35] Jeff Calhoun: When you're writing a show that takes place in a time that is so vastly different than the one we live in, knowing that it is going to be seen by a modern audience, what do you think are the tools that you take from the modern day in order to tell an honest version of the past? For me, I think it's important what your relationship is among your collaborators and that the show is a reflection of the people who create the show. And what's been wonderful about our collaboration is that we've been learning from each other. And the show, to be truthful, has to come from a truthful environment. It's also true for Goodspeed Musicals and Donalyn Hilton, who's making sure that both sides of the table, and when I say the table, I mean the actors on stage as well as the creative team and all of the designers, are equally represented.

And that's been really important that if we're doing this kind of a subject, that our world is represented the same way that the show is represented. The show is kind of like the tip of the iceberg of what we're creating, if that makes sense.

[4:36] Jonathan Brielle: Would you mind, because she's unable to be here today, will you tell us a little more about Ian and sort of how you came about getting to know her, how she came onto the project, and what that's been like collaborating together? Yeah, we'd love to know more about that relationship. It just sounds so creatively fulfilling.

[4:44] Jeff Calhoun: I'm happy to share my experience and share it with love, in that we started out really not knowing each other. And Jeff and I were two white guys and two white cis males. I'm a straight guy in theater, and Jeff is a gay man, but we were the two white guys. And Ian, as I said, by the way, I saw Ian on YouTube doing this incredible monologue as a black trans feminine poet. And I was like, wow, this person really has something to say. And so that was my first introduction to her. And they were 25 when we met. I'm a lot older and generationally different. I have an incredible queer daughter who is older than Ian. Somehow my relationship with my daughter got closer and helped my relationship with Ian.

I don't know, Ian has started to feel like family to me. Ian had never written a libretto before. And I'm a book writer as well. I'd written the book to himself and Nora and Nightmare Alley. But I knew that I wasn't the right book writer to be truthful to this. You know, whether I'm writing a song or writing a book, an audience can smell whether it's truthful and can smell whether it's real or it's not real. I knew that Ian could bring that to the table, what she learned in writing a libretto, and what frankly, I had to learn about gender and about transgender and that world. We'll never be able to know exactly what that feels like, but I feel a whole lot closer to it now. You know, the world has changed since 2016, you know, when we first started working together.

And the truth is, I think that Jeff and I have both changed and grown tremendously from this relationship. And I think Ian would tell you the same thing that she has changed and grown and that we have become like family. And I think that's what hopefully comes across on stage.

[6:41] Pauls Macs: I just wanted to jump in and add, I think there's just power in saying, I don't know. I don't know. And I need help to tell the story. Part of my directing journey over the last 10 years, when I first started being a director, I felt the pressure to have all the answers. I think that's a really exciting change that's happening in our industry is that it's okay now to say, I don't know, I need help. Because if I don't get help, I shouldn't be telling the story. I also think like you were saying before that there is something to ways that we help each other. It sounds like the triad of this team is very important. You have Jeff, who knew John Kenley personally, and has such an intimate connection and was literally given the legacy of please tell my story.

What I think is important is that this being a very intersectional team is I think, really, really important. This took place, you know, a really long time ago. And that historical context is really important. And I feel like one of the benefits of having a team where everyone has such different perspectives is that you're able to hold what the world was and what the world is and what the world could be all in one go, and that you're able to inform each other about that.

[8:07] Jeff Calhoun: I know that it's hard for a lot of people, I think because Paul and I are millennials, right? We grew up in a very different time, the post AIDS crisis, leaning into like the glee era, leaning into like social media, and now how rapid it's been the ability to find and connect. Sexuality specifically, to be able to self-advocate and have vocabulary for who we are, how we want to define ourselves, or the communities that we belong to. And to know that it was not that long ago that there were no such ways to find people, you had to really just extend your heart and hope that it would be safe, you know, so it's no wonder that John was not able to share with more than a few select people. And Jeff, it must have felt or I'm sure you can attest more to how it feels to have been trusted with someone's story in that way, when they came from a time when that could be so dangerous.

[9:40] Jeff Calhoun: I think there was a certain pride that Mr. Kenley had that I got my start there. And that was I was able to make a living in a business that he opened the door for. But it's also very exciting. Teresa, you said it really beautifully. It's an exciting time that we have new stories to tell. And we Jonathan and I couldn't do this without Ian's perspective, we wouldn't have done it. That's exciting. And my work with Deaf West is exciting to building bridges, we're doing the first original musical about a deaf character. Up until now, we've had deaf people recreate roles that hearing people have created. But this will be the first time we're actually telling the story about a deaf character. And so I just find it to be a really exciting time to use art to talk about the social terrain that we're living in and do it through entertainment.

[10:27] Pauls Macs: That's fantastic. There's one more demo that we need to get to. We're going to play I Chose You.

[10:34] Jeff Calhoun: Oh, I love this song. This is one of my favorite songs that Jonathan's done. The groove is so sexy.

[10:39] Pauls Macs: Oh, I love this song.

[10:40] Jeff Calhoun: Well, that's what we usually say at the end of the song. Jonathan, would you please intro I Chose You?

[10:46] Jonathan Brielle: Yes, this is Act Two. Nina Mae and Oscar have created a life together in Florida. They are this wonderful couple and they've gotten older. They are in their late 50s or early 60s. They still got it for each other. That's really this fun song. And you have L Morgan Lee playing Nina Mae and on this demo is Darius DeHaas playing the part of Oscar.

[11:04] Pauls Macs: All right, here's I Chose You performed by L Morgan Lee and Darius DeHaas.

[11:09] ♪ Musical number: "I Chose You" — performed by L Morgan Lee and Darius DeHaas ♪

[12:31] Pauls Macs: Love it. That song is just so uplifting. The thought I had as I was listening to this song is, for characters for whom it can feel like love is so far, I feel that's very present within the early part of the piece. They're trying to find where they belong. It's such a beautiful affirmation to see them performing this song, to find that love in act two. So it's fantastic.

[12:49] Jeff Calhoun: It was important to us to represent that they have family that is embracing themselves together as a unit, whereas Jay, John, Gene were struggling to have love and family. It was important to have that correlation. There's a line in the book that I really loved, or an exchange, I should say, between Jay and Carl that I wanted to take a chance to read, if that's all right. Jay is comparing how they feel to Alice in Wonderland. And the quote says, starting with Jay's line, she wants to get through a door, but she can't because she's not the right size. If she drinks from the bottle, she's small enough to walk.

[13:56] Jonathan Brielle: It is specifically for like an intersex youth, this idea that when you're young, sometimes you're forced into a surgery that you may or may not need because your parents are like, well, just make a decision now. As you get older, this idea of, okay, well, where do I fit in? Because this all doesn't feel completely honest. It feels like I'm always missing a part of myself, or I'm more complex than this as a person, right? Even being able to look up more about intersex people and intersex youth and sort of what they go through. I cannot imagine how much harder it was to feel like you were the only person living that experience. You know, I can't imagine how much harder it was to not be able to say, okay, well, I know that there are examples of this, or I know where to find information, or I know where I can talk to someone because John didn't have that to our knowledge.

[14:51] Jeff Calhoun: Yeah, but the reasons, Teresa, that made him in my eyes such a wonderful person is that he celebrated life. You wouldn't have no idea that he had the weight of the world on his shoulders ever. Saying the greatest form of discretion is complete indiscretion. And I think it's sort of John's motto. I mean, people went in Ohio to the theater as much to peek and hope that they can get a peek of Mr. Kenley as much as the show because he was exotic. He didn't look like anyone that I had ever met, certainly coming from Pittsburgh, but he celebrated that. He made you smile. To be with Mr. Kenley, you just smiled, almost like an apparition. He didn't look like anybody. And so it was fun to watch the locals kind of try to sneak a peek at Mr. Kenley when they could, when he left his door open.

I love that joy. And I love how that joy is so present in the story. I mean, the script is so beautifully written in that much like Mr. Kenley, you have the dualities of this joy and this flamboyance and this joie de vivre, as well as like the things that make it more heart-wrenching and more serious. But it's all done with this sort of, pardon the joke, but like glitter and be gay.

[15:50] Jonathan Brielle: Well, the other thing that I think is so clear from the relationship between Mr. Kenley and Lee Schubert, when Lee Schubert's trying to come up with those words, your whole kind of situation, there was clearly, Jeff, it's like you can still feel it just by talking with you today, that power, that presence that Mr. Kenley had, that Jay had, this complex person had that just no matter what identity they happen to be choosing to assume in that moment clearly left a lasting impression on everyone who knew them.

[16:20] Jeff Calhoun: You know, I heard Mike Nichols say it for the first time, but I'm sure other people have said it too, but don't mistake my kindness for weakness. Mr. Kenley was very strong. I happen to have a, well, he scared the shit out of me too when I first talked to him. I mean, he was a 16 year old. My mom drives me from Pittsburgh an hour and a half to Ohio to audition for Mr. Kenley. And he says, do you sing? And I said, yes. So I sang my song and he goes, well, you don't sing. He said, do you dance? And I said, yes. And I did some dance. He goes, well, you don't dance. He goes, what do you do? And I said, well, I can tap dance. And so I put on my tap shoes and I tap. And he said, okay, you can tap.

He just left the room and my mom and I sat there. And after 15 minutes, Dennis, his assistant came and said, Mr. Kenley's waiting for you in his office. Well, we didn't know because he got on his bicycle with his little basket on the front and his little poodle and he just drove off. So we went into his office and he asked me how old I was. And my mom started to answer. And to this day, he's the only person that's ever told my mom to shut up. And she did. He said, if he's old enough to work for me, he's old enough to talk for himself. Maybe you should wait outside, mom. And so mom went outside and then he asked me how old I was and lied because I knew from my first answer, I had to be older than 16 to work there.

So I think I picked my brother's birthday. I think equity still thinks I'm three years older than I really am. But anyway, the point is, he was tough and he could be very intimidating. He sent women home if they gained five pounds during the run. He would give them a bus ticket and say goodbye. So there was also that side. We don't really get into that side of Mr. Kenley. But the point is, he was a force to be reckoned with. Absolutely. He'd have to be to survive what he survived and to do it with such, Teresa, as you say, joie de vivre. I think that's very, very clear in the script that you've written.

[18:03] Teresa Attridge: It does definitely honor their legacy.

[18:07] Teresa Attridge: Should we transition to our game?

[18:10] Jeff Calhoun: Of course. This is a fan favorite segment. I'll let y'all know. So at the end of every episode, we like to play a little game. It's never the same game. We always tailor it to whoever is doing the podcast. And so I thought it might be a little fun if we played a game that I'm calling Summer Stacked. Right. So as we know, Mr. Kenley revolutionized Summer Stock, made it what it is today, brought all the big stars in to do shows. I am curious, what major celebrity of today would you love to see do a show for Summer Stock? What celebrity? What show?

[18:41] Jeff Calhoun: Well, wow. Mine's already taken. It's a bummer. My first show, as I mentioned, was Dancing with Dan Miller in Anything Goes. I knew Sutton very well. I called Sutton and I said, Sutton, I have a great idea for you. Reno Sweeney really should be a tap dancer. I know because I did it with Dan Miller. Let's do Anything Goes. And she said, you're not going to believe this, Jeff, but Kathleen Marshall called me a week ago with the same idea.

[19:12] Jonathan Brielle: Yeah, so mine's taken. That was my dream show to do and it's been done.

[19:16] Jeff Calhoun: Oh my gosh. They knew you'd be on this podcast years later and they're like, oh, we really got him.

[19:21] Jonathan Brielle: Now you have that on the record, Jeff. So everybody knows, which is really exciting.

[19:24] Jeff Calhoun: Everyone knows.

[19:26] Jonathan Brielle: I mean, great minds do think alike, as they say.

[19:29] Jeff Calhoun: I would vote for Liam Neeson as Conrad Birdie.

[19:35] Jonathan Brielle: Just like a very serious Conrad Birdie?

[19:37] Jeff Calhoun: I just think it would be hysterical. I just think it would be a disgrace to him that way.

[19:41] Jonathan Brielle: It's either that or he would kill everybody, one or the other.

[19:44] Jeff Calhoun: You know, I can picture Conrad Birdie doing the monologue from the movie Taken, and I never thought I'd envision that in my entire life. But here we are.

[19:53] Teresa Attridge: This is the musical theater crossover that we need. What's also so exciting about this moment, can I just say that you two are the first guests who have ever been the first to answer. Like always, always. Teresa and I are like, well, we'll go. You know, you can think about it. Jeff's like, I know. Jonathan's like, oh, I know. Out the gate.

[20:11] Jeff Calhoun: I love games. I just tried to come up with the weirdest one I could think of. So there you are.

[20:15] Jonathan Brielle: That was pretty good. I will say that was pretty weird and I loved it.

[20:18] Jeff Calhoun: Harvey and Rosie and Fiddler, but there we go.

[20:21] Jonathan Brielle: Man, people keep taking your ideas, Jeff. My goodness.

[20:24] Jeff Calhoun: You got to just like hit that button a little faster so you can ring in your answer, you know?

[20:28] Jonathan Brielle: Well, but I wanted to do that with Sutton almost from the day she came to an audition for the Will Rogers Follies in Detroit when I was casting the national tour. That's when I first met her and she was 17. I think that was her first equity job. And then I had her in Greece. And so I was well aware of her talent for a long time. And I was just dreaming of the right time to present this idea to her. And it was heartbreaking when she said I was a week late.

[20:51] Jeff Calhoun: Oh my God.

[20:56] Jonathan Brielle: Oh my gosh. You look back on that moment in your career and be like, what could have been?

[20:57] Jeff Calhoun: Well, she was great in it. So I can't complain. It was a great production. Kathleen did great and she did great. So what can you do?

[21:03] Jonathan Brielle: I mean, as they say, anything goes.

[21:07] Jeff Calhoun: Maybe when we announce our picks, then someone will hear our podcast and steal some ideas.

[21:13] Jonathan Brielle: I would love to see Sandra Oh in A Little Night Music. I just think Sandra Oh is such an incredible, nuanced actress. And I would love to watch her sing Send In The Clowns.

[21:27] Jeff Calhoun: Oh my gosh.

[21:28] Jonathan Brielle: I just feel like she would be ephemeral, gorgeous, perfect. I also would be really curious to see Zendaya do Little Women.

[21:38] Jeff Calhoun: Oh my God.

[21:39] Jonathan Brielle: I think that Zendaya would have like a really great interpretation of Astonishing.

[21:43] Jeff Calhoun: I was speaking of Sutton Foster and, you know, Jason Howlett.

[21:47] Jonathan Brielle: Yeah.

[21:47] Jeff Calhoun: Exactly.

[21:48] Jonathan Brielle: Awesome.

[21:48] Jeff Calhoun: But Zendaya's version of Jo would be incredible. I think Zendaya would bring such fun and life and wit and humor to Jo. I mean, I think Zendaya can do no wrong. Let's be clear. Aston, over here.

[21:59] Jonathan Brielle: Oh, I have another one. I have one I just thought of. I would do Whorehouse Revival if we could have Reba.

[22:04] Jeff Calhoun: Oh my God.

[22:06] Jonathan Brielle: That would be incredible.

[22:06] Jeff Calhoun: That would be a reason to resurrect that show.

[22:09] Jonathan Brielle: If I weren't plugged into this computer, I would have stowed up and left the room. That was a spiritual thing to say.

[22:12] Jeff Calhoun: Watching her every night play Annie Oakley. Well, she didn't even play it. She was Annie Oakley. It was one of the highlights of my career. I loved standing in the wings watching her every night. I almost tossed my coffee cup, which would have been really bad.

[22:26] Jonathan Brielle: I also, for science, would be, quote unquote, for science, I'd be really curious to see a Leonardo DiCaprio-led Company.

[22:35] Jeff Calhoun: Oh, Company.

[22:37] Jonathan Brielle: Oh.

[22:40] Jeff Calhoun: Just because I feel it's interesting to see someone who, their dating life is everywhere and everyone's like, why don't you settle down? Why aren't you finding someone your age? Where's Kate Winslet?

[22:46] Jonathan Brielle: Kate Winslet would be Kathy in this production.

[22:47] Jeff Calhoun: I think it's the opposite problem as Bobby.

[22:50] Jonathan Brielle: There's too many.

[22:51] Jeff Calhoun: It's too many. But all the girlfriends are just other famous celebrities.

[22:55] Jonathan Brielle: But I think watching Leo DiCaprio do Company and realizing that maybe after singing Being Alive, being like, maybe I should look into this.

[23:02] Jeff Calhoun: You're the guy who does Charles Pierce's, aren't you?

[23:05] Jonathan Brielle: Charles Pierce was the most famous. He was brilliant, and he was a female impersonator back in the day. He wasn't lip syncing. He would actually sing as if it was Penny Davis or Joan Crawford, whoever. And I wanted to do an all-male version of Danes at Sea called Boys Ahoy and have Charles Pierce play Mona. And every time she would come out, she'd be a different movie star.

[23:22] Jeff Calhoun: Jeff, you are an idea machine.

[23:29] Jonathan Brielle: Like, the resume doesn't even cover it.

[23:33] Jeff Calhoun: He's a Broadway director.

[23:34] Jonathan Brielle: He's a Broadway director who is able to think of, oh, if I did this on Broadway, I would put this star on.

[23:39] Jeff Calhoun: It's true.

[23:40] Jonathan Brielle: But man, just like off the dome. Incredible.

[23:42] Jeff Calhoun: I always think those would be fun shows to see.

[23:45] Teresa Attridge: And pals, round us out. What is your summer-stacked dream?

[23:48] Pauls Macs: Well, I first want to make just an observation, which is, Teresa, I love your Sondheim choices. And Jeff, I've noticed that you have been saying Mr. Kenley whenever you refer to John Kenley. And I think that's really beautiful because my greatest theater inspiration is Stephen Sondheim. When I'm talking about him, I say Mr. Sondheim. If I would have never said John, I would have always said Mr. Kenley. The reverence and respect that you can feel right now is immense.

[24:15] Pauls Macs: So my choices were kind of goofball. And really just, I only had one this week. But the last time I was in New York, I saw the production of Gutenberg the Musical with Josh Gad and Andrew Reynolds. And it's a show I've directed in Seattle. And so I was like, oh, what could I do? What would be a really interesting casting of Gutenberg? This is actually a game we used to play in college where we would just recast shows, but only with Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen.

[24:38] Jonathan Brielle: As one should.

[24:39] Pauls Macs: So I would love to see a production of Gutenberg the Musical with Patrick Stewart and Ian McKellen. But they would rotate roles every night, right?

[24:46] Jonathan Brielle: So one night Patrick Stewart would be Bud, but then the next night he'd be Doug and vice versa.

[24:50] Jeff Calhoun: All I can picture now is Sir Ian McKellen as Gandalf going, at the festival.

[24:57] Jonathan Brielle: Exactly.

[24:57] Teresa Attridge: Well, Jeff, Jonathan, thank you so much for being here. It's been such a privilege and honor, honestly, to talk with you about this piece. It's so exciting. It's going to be a Goodspeed so soon. Thank you for your time.

[25:08] Jeff Calhoun: Listen, I have to say to you all, I do a lot of interviews, obviously, and rarely are people as prepared and as knowledgeable as the two of you. So it was a real treat. And thank you both. Truly exceptional.

[25:21] Teresa Attridge: Oh my God. Thank you. You just made my day. I can't wait to call my mom and tell her you said that to me.

[25:27] Jonathan Brielle: Jeff, thank you for saying that. You just raised our weeks, our lives by saying that.

[25:31] Pauls Macs: So thank you both for being here.

[25:33] Jeff Calhoun: It's true.

[25:34] Jonathan Brielle: Thank you specifically to Jeff for, it's clear how much Jon meant to you. And the fact that you have been so open and able to talk to us about someone that's not only an inspiration for your show, but someone that meant so much to you in your life, that's very special. And I'm very happy that in our own little corner of the internet, we have our own little space there.

[26:00] Jeff Calhoun: Well, thank you for saying that, Teresa. My dream and my goal is that the audiences leave the theater knowing how special he was.

[26:09] Teresa Attridge: Absolutely.

[26:10] Pauls Macs: All right. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you, Barnacles, for listening. We'll see you again soon.

[26:16] Teresa Attridge: Bye, Barnacles.

[26:17] Pauls Macs: Bye, Barnacles.

[26:25] Teresa Attridge: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass, hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs. If you like what you hear, you can like, subscribe, and share. See you next time.