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[0:00] ♪ Musical number: "Gay 101" — performed by the cast of Spectrum ♪

[1:49] Teresa Attridge: This week, we continue our conversation with Stephanie L. Carlin about this exciting new musical. Listen all the way to the end for a game we call What's in a Name? where we decide the very best musical theater drag names.

[2:02] Pauls Macs: I'm curious about the development of the other characters in the show. Because of course we have Matthew and exploring autism through Matthew and how he's interacting with the world. But I'm curious about the queer characters that you've written as well. Is Second Avenue based on a particular bar?

[2:15] Stephanie L. Carlin: You know, not really. I've taken a lot from the particular Denver bars. Specifically Trax Bar in Denver is what I've really developed a lot. And of course, I'm from Chicago. And Roscoe's and Dorothy's were kind of the go-to bars that I would go to. But for me, a lot of it came from the people more so than the space itself.

[2:39] Pauls Macs: Totally.

[2:40] Stephanie L. Carlin: Because for me, I feel like it's so funny. Pals, I think you're one of the few straight people I've actually had read this piece in any way. Because I think a majority of the readers I've had are either queer or neurodivergent. And every single one of them is like, I know who Johnny is. I know who Johnny is. I have met Johnny. Or Ashlyn is like my college roommate. And I'm like, that's great. That's what I wanted. Because literally, I also know who these people exactly are. And they were the people that helped me out in different ways. But also people that later in my relationship with them were like, hey, so you know that autism thing? I relate more than I thought I did initially. Can you elaborate on some things for me?

And again, it's not necessarily to say that it's life changing when you find out these things. But it's just something that helps you along your way. For me, the development of these characters really came from just the people in my life. The parents are based off of my own parents in some way. And some of the ways that they messed up, but also some of the ways they succeeded.

[3:37] Pauls Macs: It's clear from our conversation so far that this piece is deeply, deeply personal to you and based on a great deal of your individual experiences. And so I guess I just want to say thank you for letting me read it. Letting us read it. Sharing it with us and sharing it with the world. Because again, I think what you've done is something that's incredibly brave. And a lot of artists do this, though. They seize a space that they're not being represented. And they say, I need to make that space for myself. But also, I just know that's going to be helpful for others who don't see themselves represented.

[4:05] Stephanie L. Carlin: Let me just say, I mentioned that there were a couple of reactions to this piece that really surprised me and stuck out to me. And I'll mention one. I did a theater conference last year where there was this one panelist who did musicals. And at the theater conference, we were encouraged to pitch ideas. It was just kind of a general career conference where some were actors, some were designers. And some of the panelists were actors and designers. And we were just like, talk about your career to them because they might be your colleagues one day. And I was like, well, this is the only one that's done musicals. So I guess I'll bring up this idea to them, see what happens. And at this point, whenever I pitched this show, the kind of reaction would be, oh, how did you come up with that?

Or, oh, that's so interesting. Like trying to sound intelligent while they're doing it. Or trying to sound like they care in some way when I know they didn't, really. And that was okay. I accepted that. I was just like, okay, I'm going to pitch it again, see what happens. I say that this is a show with an autistic lead with a somewhat accessible setup. And this panelist said, let me stop you right there. Here's what we're not going to do. Because I am so annoyed with how people are represented in this industry. With how my community is represented. And we just kind of created this weird battle plan for this musical. Which, it's just like a point by point list of what to do, what not to do. And I actually wrote a song in the show because of it.

[5:20] Pauls Macs: Which one?

[5:22] Stephanie L. Carlin: Turn It Up.

[5:24] Pauls Macs: Turn It Up.

[5:25] Stephanie L. Carlin: Because they were very insistent that there should be some moments of overstimulus. Where the audience needs to see how an environment would be challenging in some way. And, of course, I don't want to do that every single time. But I saw their point. I understand. Some people won't necessarily see it if you just sit and tell them. You've got to show them in some way. So, I recognize that. Can we listen to our other demo?

[5:42] Pauls Macs: If You're a Woman, which I can't wait for listeners to hear this one. Can you first off tell me who's on this demo?

[5:47] Stephanie L. Carlin: Yes.

[5:48] Pauls Macs: Fantastic. I was wondering about that, actually. You sound great, by the way.

[5:55] Stephanie L. Carlin: And so do you, Armin.

[5:56] Pauls Macs: Oh, yeah.

[5:57] Stephanie L. Carlin: The voice is giving.

[5:58] Pauls Macs: I appreciate that. I don't perform that often just because, for me, my sensitivity is lights. So, it's a little hard to find the time to perform in that sense. I guess it's hard for me to incorporate myself on a stage sometimes. I have to adjust a lot. But I do love singing. And I love performing when I can. So, this next song is sung by a character, Ashlyn, who works at the bar. And she is a drag performer. More of a clown, really. But we're going to go with drag performer. She is a songwriter in her own right. And she wrote this song for a little show that happens near the end of Act 2. Where, as her alien character, she is talking about this crush that she has. But she's frustrated because it's a man. Gross. JK. But relatable. All right. Here is If You Were a Woman, performed by Stephanie L. Carlin.

[6:46] ♪ Musical number: "If You Were a Woman" — performed by Stephanie L. Carlin ♪

[10:57] Pauls Macs: I think that number is so charming. I am also an alien as of this moment.

[11:02] Stephanie L. Carlin: Converted.

[11:03] Pauls Macs: Me and Ashlyn, twins. I can't get over.

[11:06] Stephanie L. Carlin: We'd have a condo and be in love.

[11:07] Pauls Macs: Oh my gosh, that's the dream.

[11:10] Stephanie L. Carlin: That is the dream.

[11:12] Pauls Macs: In this economy?

[11:15] Stephanie L. Carlin: Absolutely. We're slowly making this a political podcast.

[11:19] Pauls Macs: I feel it. Let me tell you, it's always vaguely political here on the pod.

[11:24] Stephanie L. Carlin: Vaguely political.

[11:25] Pauls Macs: Vaguely political.

[11:26] Stephanie L. Carlin: Because all theater is political, right?

[11:28] Pauls Macs: No, it is. Absolutely. I never really understood. I feel like there are some musicals that are very—maybe this is on the record, I don't know—but there are some musicals that are very liberal in the sense that a lot of weird things can happen, like orgies and things like that. But there are some that are very conservative where a man has to be with a woman singing about 76 trombones. You know what I mean? But all of which is political in some capacity.

[12:16] Stephanie L. Carlin: It's interesting how—I'm actually, I keep bringing this up on the podcast—but I'm teaching a musical theater history course right now. But I'm teaching it in the country of Latvia, which is where my family is from. You know, it's so interesting to teach people about the musical when half the class doesn't know what a musical is. But if you look at—especially if you go decade by decade—you can understand social tensions that are happening. If you look really closely, you can often kind of understand what's going on, the zeitgeist of society. Especially if you compare from like, oh, this is what we were talking about with Rodgers and Hammerstein to what we're talking about now. It's so exciting to see how the definition of what a musical can be, like, for example, with this show, is expanding.

That is what is so exciting about this art form, for me at least. One of the things that's most exciting about it, it truly is, in my opinion, the only art form—Theater, if we're talking theater in general—where everything is possible. TV and film, sure, you can CGI things, and sure, you can put a lot of money to something and make a big thing happen. You could do that. But there are so many people behind it that are going to say no. There are so many people behind it that are going to prevent other people from being in the room. Theater doesn't care. Like, I truly believe that theater, if someone comes in with the drive and the initiative and the go-getting attitude, whether they're a PSM or a writer or an actor, even, we will find a space. We will make a space for that person. I'm grateful to live in New York in that instance where I just keep finding new work and new things.

[13:14] Pauls Macs: That was really inspiring.

[13:15] Stephanie L. Carlin: No, thank you. Especially because, oh, I mean, this might be some random example. There's a theater festival in Seattle called 1448. They're basically like 10-minute plays. They were creating the reality of two people skiing downhill. And the way that they did that, they basically just had two people kind of miming their skis. And then they had other people just, like, put up a little tree, move around them. And so it, like, looked like they were going downhill. That's just one tiny example of how you can create something with a little bit of cleverness. And it's so beautiful how, like, so many people try to bring that to life. And it's not some overworked editor behind the scenes trying to make this shot look pretty. And it's this once-in-a-lifetime moment that maybe happens, like, other times, like in a night. But you can only have it in this instance, in this moment, at this time period right now.

[13:56] Pauls Macs: Totally. I like to say the audience is the audience.

[13:58] Stephanie L. Carlin: Yes, and. The audience is the yes, and. They're the ones who see it and they're like, yes, and. Because I mean, that's the thing that sort of differentiates theater from all the other art forms, right? Is this idea that it has to exist in conjunction with the audience happening in real time, right? Film is something obviously that an audience watches or a painting is something that an audience comes to view. But theater is innately interactive. When I was growing up, and I told my dad I wanted to be in theater when I was like seven, right? I like knew pretty early. I remember my dad, my dad also spoke to me like a mini adult. So like, I really need to clarify like, yes, I was a child, but this is how he phrased it to me.

He was like, so you're going into the theater? Because my dad is like a very serious man. And I was like, yeah, you know, and he said, well, theater does not change things on the grand scale. It changes heart to heart. And that is its power and its limitation. And I was like, okay, you know. And I think what he meant by that was that theater has to impact the person in the room with it, or listening to it, and it changes minds one at a time from those who interact with the piece itself. So it's not that theater, the big idea doesn't impact the world on a grand scale. It's the idea that the performance itself is for those who attend.

[15:12] Pauls Macs: Oh, absolutely. I mean, for me, growing up, when I went to see shows, I think the first musical I ever saw, I imagine is most people's first musical was Wicked, some national tour of Wicked, I think with, I want to say Megan Hilty, but I honestly don't remember. I don't really keep track of those things. But I remember like, it was my first time in a theater. I wasn't sure what I was doing. I was with my grandma. And she was like, this seems like a fun show for kids. Why not? I just remember at one point, it was hard for me to look on the stage because I have sensitivity to lights. So it was hard for me to look at the stage. So I would just kind of like tuck my head in, and I would close my eyes and actually listen to the orchestra and listen to what they were singing.

And I was like, oh, I actually really enjoyed this. And it was just the way of how I enjoyed it, how I process it, which is why it's so upsetting to me that that happened to your sister. Because there's so many different ways to enjoy theater and process theater. I also have friends that are insanely theater nerds and stuff like that, that just straight up can't physically go into a show, but will listen to tons of cast albums and read all the scores, read all the plays, literally. Watch all the archival footage, literally, you know, are the first to post some sort of TikTok meme or whatever, like some random.

[16:18] Stephanie L. Carlin: So actually, as a result of what had happened, because we also didn't stop going to shows, we were like, okay, well, we're going to buy her a seat.

[16:24] Pauls Macs: As you should.

[16:25] Stephanie L. Carlin: In the section that's closest to the door, just in case if she is going to like have a vocal stim and we need to take a walk and come back, you know, but she should be able to go. But I remember when I got older and I started doing shows that we started doing what we called Rosie rehearsals, which was essentially Rosie got a dress rehearsal all to herself so that she could like sing along or she could jump up and dance or she could walk around. So I did it all through high school. We had the Rosie rehearsal. And then when I became a professional, and I will credit every theater I worked at in San Francisco for this, is that no one told us no. And every theater made a point to say, okay, there's a rehearsal, we'll have your sister come, we'll have the castel come say hi, like she'll sit there during vocal warm up and like sort of see everything go on. The idea was that if the show was good, Rosie would give it a standing ovation. And if the show was good, Rosie would tell you in the middle of the show.

[17:12] Pauls Macs: When I was in high school, we were doing like a musical review, right? And one of the shows we were reviewing, quote unquote, Chicago, there's this guy and he had a solo and I really don't want to like name names. I know this man knows nothing about the theater now, he'll never find me. But he was pitchy. He was like, I went to an all girls Catholic high school, we had three boys that came one could sing, it's fine. But he was singing his song. And my sister later, thank God, they said she could go to a rehearsal because she stood up in the middle of it. And she pointed at him and she went, stop singing, stop singing. But he wouldn't stop. And then she started going, no more, no more. And she threw herself on the floor and tried to army crawl out of the theater.

[17:53] Stephanie L. Carlin: Oh my gosh.

[17:54] Pauls Macs: And it was the funniest thing I'd ever seen. So everyone was like, didn't know what to do.

[17:58] Stephanie L. Carlin: I love that so much.

[17:59] Pauls Macs: It was incredible. And it was very the show must go on because everyone looked at me and I was like, standing there in the background like posing because I was in my own home over that number. And I went, what can I do? There's nothing we can do. So we just finished the show. And at the end, she didn't stand up and applaud, but she went, yeah. So yeah, my sister, first of all, a theater icon, literally, I've never read a review better than anything she's ever yelled out loud to an actor in a room. Of course, that only happened like one time. She's usually really excited and it's a really great sport and everyone's really happy she's there and it's great. She's the best. I wonder what she would think of Spectrum. I wonder.

[18:29] Stephanie L. Carlin: I mean, again, like I am amazed by all the different reactions to it. There's several that speak to me. But if I could take a moment to talk about Kate at all, because Kate is not here.

[18:37] Pauls Macs: We have to talk about Kate.

[18:39] Stephanie L. Carlin: And we have to talk about Kate. I know Kate doesn't like it when I talk about Kate, but you know what? I'll talk about Kate anyway. She's not here. We said, hey, we're playing this part. If your name rhymes with great, there's really nothing we can do.

[18:49] Pauls Macs: Exactly. So I'm just going to talk about Kate. And in addition to being an amazing managing director of New York Theater Barn, she truly is. She truly is. I met Kate at the closing night of Millennials Are Killing Musicals. Shout out to Nico Juber, who was on the show. I met her at the end of the pod, I guess. Barnacle, I believe you call it.

[19:09] Stephanie L. Carlin: Barnacle.

[19:10] Pauls Macs: Yeah! Barnacle! Oh my gosh, it's catching on, pals.

[19:12] Stephanie L. Carlin: Yes, it is.

[19:14] Pauls Macs: Right. But I believe Nico invited me and I came to closing night. I didn't realize it was closing night. I just kind of went. And that's where I also met Joe and other people at New York Theater Barn. I went to a closing night party that was at this bar where I gave Nico my opinion on the piece. And I was there with some other writers. I was sitting at a table with Kate and her partner. I was just like, you know, I have all these ideas that I really love. I know that nobody wants a Return of the Living Dead musical, but I love it. I want it. I want it so bad. Tar Man on stage? Absolutely.

[19:45] Stephanie L. Carlin: I also want that, but please continue.

[19:47] Pauls Macs: But at one point I was like, oh yeah, I have this thing, whatever. And it was Spectrum. And I was just kind of like that. And Preston, her partner, was really into it. Like, oh, what made you come up with that? And you know, we had a very long conversation. He is also autistic. We had talked about that. But Kate was very quiet the whole time. I was just like, oh, did I upset her? I'm not sure what's happening here. She put in a couple words out. And I kind of realized that that's the kind of thing with Kate. Kate really likes to listen, as I do. I also don't really like to talk. So being here is interesting for me. But it's fun. I'm having fun.

[20:18] Stephanie L. Carlin: But at one point I just made this little pride post to just be like, hey, I'm writing this thing because I'm annoyed at the world. And I just want to write something fun and gay. And hopefully y'all can get involved in some way if you know anybody. And Kate saw that post. And Kate was like, so I sent all of your demos to Joe. And I was wondering if you had a director. And I was like, you know, I don't. I'm very lucky to have someone like Kate, who is not only a great managing director, a great finance and numbers person, a patient and caring director, regardless of anybody's abilities, a cat mom to the highest degree.

[20:53] Pauls Macs: Highest.

[20:54] Stephanie L. Carlin: Highest degree, who also just happens to be autistic. And I'm grateful for her input no matter what.

[20:59] Pauls Macs: Amazing. A style icon as well.

[21:01] Stephanie L. Carlin: A style icon. She is so fashion forward.

[21:03] Pauls Macs: So fashionable.

[21:04] Stephanie L. Carlin: Oh my God, speaking of fashion, this segues so slightly into our game.

[21:10] Pauls Macs: Slightly.

[21:11] Stephanie L. Carlin: Right? Because when we're talking about fashion, when we're talking about the fits, when we're talking about persona, when we're talking about larger than life entities, as Kate is, that really reminds me of drag. And drag is such a huge part of the show. I love that there's a spectrum of queerness, a spectrum of identity, a spectrum for autism, right? So, I mean, the name really encapsulates everything. So I had a game that I wanted to play. It's very silly. One of the things I loved about this piece was you have some incredible drag names in it. Truly incredible. Do you want to share? They might be surprises to the show.

[21:42] Pauls Macs: Yes, yes. Honestly, this came from a list of like, I want to say 50 names, random names that I came up with. And I was just like, I have to pick the best ones. And these, in my opinion, I don't know if one of them is the best one. One of them is definitely the best one, but the other one, not so much. But the one that Ashlyn, the character Ashlyn has is Candy Corn, which I think is great. But then the one that I argue is the best that I ever came up with that I'm proud of is Johnny's, I guess, host name, but we'll say drag name for this instance, is Eddie Puss Complex. I am so proud of that. It was so inspired. The layers. So for our game today, I actually thought it might be fun. The game, we're going to call it What's in a Name?

What's in a Name? What I would love is if we could think of a musical theater character and create a drag name inspired by them, or for them, should they ever choose to take the stage. And so this is basically a musical theater pun game, but with names. And the one that I thought of, speaking of Wicked, which you already brought up, was I was like, if Elphaba did drag, I feel like her drag persona would be Verda Gree. Like Gree, like G-R-I-S, like Pinot Gris.

[22:45] Stephanie L. Carlin: Yeah.

[22:46] Pauls Macs: Yes, absolutely.

[22:47] Stephanie L. Carlin: But Verda Green. They're fixated on her Verda Gree. It's just, it writes itself, babe. What about you, Kyles? What are you thinking?

[22:56] Pauls Macs: I approached this from a slightly different lens, which is kind of like, if I were to be in drag, like what musical theater name would I choose? But first off, my drag name, you know, I've never done drag, but like, oh, what is my drag name? I was reminded that I decided years ago, it'd be just RuPaul's, if I ever did drag. But going from the musical theater lens, I was like, okay, if I had to have a musical theater name, what would it be? And I thought to myself, well, I think I'd want to be Liza Madoolittle. Kind of like Liza Minnelli and Eliza Doolittle together. I was like, well, that's pretty good. But then I was like, I need to go further.

[23:31] Stephanie L. Carlin: The amount of money I would have paid to watch Liza Minnelli play Eliza Doolittle.

[23:33] Pauls Macs: Right.

[23:34] Pauls Macs: The amount of money I would pay.

[23:36] Pauls Macs: But the other direction I went was I was thinking about Little Shop, and I thought, oh, Audrey to Die For.

[23:40] Stephanie L. Carlin: Oh, that's good.

[23:42] Pauls Macs: I love that. Because it's like four. So it's Audrey to Die For.

[23:47] Stephanie L. Carlin: Oh my gosh. Weirdly enough, Audrey is also another Autistic Coda character for a lot of people.

[23:51] Pauls Macs: Yes, work. So is Elle Woods.

[23:53] Stephanie L. Carlin: So is Elle Woods. Pretty much any like, quote unquote, dumb blonde character, I think is very Autistic Coded. When I was at BMI in second year, you have to adapt a movie into a musical and make like a little 10 minute presentation at the end of it. One of my ideas was House Bunny, because I think House Bunny would be a great musical.

[24:07] Pauls Macs: I'm throwing up. Why are we the same person?

[24:12] Stephanie L. Carlin: Throwing up in a good way.

[24:13] Pauls Macs: Throwing up in the best way.

[24:15] Stephanie L. Carlin: Clearly, it's just a bunch of neurodivergent women trying to teach a woman to just interact with the world. And I'm like, I want this.

[24:21] Pauls Macs: I will argue Elle Woods. Everyone thinks she's a dumb blonde, but she's the smartest bitch in any room. She literally was like, Oh, I'm gonna go to Harvard. And they're like, that's really hard. And she went, Okay, but I'm gonna go.

[24:30] Stephanie L. Carlin: Literally the most iconic line.

[24:31] Pauls Macs: You know, just hyper fixated on Harvard.

[24:33] Stephanie L. Carlin: I love the way that you managed to introduce Elle Woods into the podcast. Again, you always talk about Elle Woods and Mrs. Levin. Mrs. Levin hasn't come up yet, but we have like,

[24:41] Pauls Macs: I think I haven't mentioned Elle Woods in two podcasts. And honestly, I felt like I was withering.

[24:46] Stephanie L. Carlin: All right, Stephanie, how about yourself? Have you thought of a fun, like musical theater inspired name?

[24:51] Stephanie L. Carlin: Gosh, this is hard to do on the spot. The two that I have in my mind is that I know Sally Bowles is kind of already a drag name in itself. It kind of is. Like her name is kind of a drag name.

[25:01] Pauls Macs: I already like where this is going.

[25:04] Stephanie L. Carlin: But I think bowl cut. I think bowl cut would be a great drag name.

[25:07] Pauls Macs: Sally Bowl Cut? Oh my gosh, and she wears like a cute little like,

[25:10] Stephanie L. Carlin: Yes!

[25:11] Pauls Macs: Oh my gosh, that's perfect.

[25:13] Stephanie L. Carlin: And then we mentioned him earlier, but another one, Evan Hansen, because I don't know if I see Evan doing drag, but I feel like if his name is not Connor, his name is Raven Through a Window or something like that.

[25:25] Pauls Macs: Oh my god, Raven Through a Window. Stop, Stephanie. Everyone take what you're doing and write that show right now.

[25:31] Pauls Macs: Stephanie wins. Stephanie won.

[25:33] Stephanie L. Carlin: I'm not Raven Through a Window. I'm gonna die. It could also be Dear Evan Hanjob. There are so many directions.

[25:40] Pauls Macs: I hope you're listeners, if you don't know drag at all, or like anything, you have to look up some punny names.

[25:44] Stephanie L. Carlin: There's someone in San Francisco who's Rita Dambook. I had a very short drag career, two performances, but my name was Hella Kitty, which is both Asian and Bay Area specific.

[25:58] Pauls Macs: Another drag name I love is Kim Chi.

[26:00] Stephanie L. Carlin: I mean, I love Kim Chi. I use Kim Chi's Foundation from Kim Chi Chic Beauty.

[26:04] Pauls Macs: Oh yeah, it's great.

[26:04] Pauls Macs: I have to say a word for my dear wife, Sarah. I love Kim Chi.

[26:08] Stephanie L. Carlin: I have to say a word for my dear wife, Sarah. I was workshopping these names with her. She's like, oh, it's okay. That was good. She liked Audrey To Die For, but she came up with some, and my favorite one that she came up with was, we just recently saw a concert staging of Sunset Boulevard, which is about the aging movie star Norma Desmond. And she was like, oh, how about Norma Desman?

[26:26] Pauls Macs: Oh, Norma Desman.

[26:28] Stephanie L. Carlin: And I thought that was incredible. Shout out to her wonderful wit.

[26:33] Pauls Macs: We love to see it. A keeper.

[26:35] Stephanie L. Carlin: Absolutely.

[26:35] Pauls Macs: The name and the wife.

[26:37] Stephanie L. Carlin: Absolutely. Okay, Stephanie. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here and for sharing this piece. It's such a beautiful story of inclusivity. People working together to accept each other. I'm just thankful for you being gracious and for sharing your time with us today.

[26:50] Stephanie L. Carlin: Totally. And also, I appreciate that you're elevating the voices of other autistic creators, that you mentioned them during the podcast, and that you want to give shout outs, because I mean, like you were saying, it's not a lack of people who want to make theater and representative art. It's just sort of like, hey, we're here.

[27:06] Pauls Macs: Yeah, we're here. We've been here. We've been doing this for a long time.

[27:11] Stephanie L. Carlin: For a long time. And maybe if there were more Kate's in the world, we'd be lucky enough to see more of it.

[27:14] Pauls Macs: Very well said. Yeah. Well, thank you, Barnacles, for listening. Thank you, Stephanie, for being here and for remembering that our fans are called Barnacles. That made our day.

[27:23] Stephanie L. Carlin: Thanks, Barnacles. Thanks for listening. See you soon. Bye.

[27:26] Pauls Macs: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass, hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs. If you like what you hear, you can like, subscribe and share. See you next time.