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[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Backstage Pass. Episode 16 – Joanna Burns, Justin Anthony Long, and Joël René Scoville.

[0:22] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to make the exclusive inclusive. We are interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time. This is your Backstage Pass. Get your Backstage Pass. Get your Backstage Pass.

[0:43] Teresa Attridge: Hello Barnacles! Nice for you to return yet again for another fabulous musical. We have got a great team of writers in the house, or should I say the Flophouse. Hey, make some noise Flophouse! Hello! So happy to have you here. Oh my gosh. As always, friends, it is me, Teresa Attridge. And pals Mox. And today we have the team of Flophouse. We cannot wait. Would you like to just introduce yourselves real quick?

[1:10] Justin Anthony Long: I'm Justin Anthony Long. Thanks for having us.

[1:15] Joanna Burns: I'm Joanna Burns. She, her. Hello. Nice to see you.

[1:22] Joël René Scoville: Hi, I'm Joël René Scoville. She, her. Thanks for having us.

[1:27] Teresa Attridge: And you know what? I haven't stated my pronouns on the cast for a while. So my name is pals Mox and I use he, him pronouns. We love it. Listen, we're all here. We're reaffirming ourselves and we're affirming each other. Thank you so much for sharing your amazing piece Flophouse with us. We're so excited to share it with the listeners. I thought I would go ahead and read your bios just so everyone can understand the amazing people who are in the studio with us today. Joël, we're going to start with you. It's like hearing a book report about yourself. It's crazy. Away we go. Okay, so Joël co-wrote the book and lyrics for Flophouse. And Joël is a liberal Black Mormon. Yes, really. An actress, writer, librettist, and lyricist.

Her musical Two in One, a Harlem musical with Lou Smurls with composer Jenna Gillespie Bird, was a 2023 Eugene O'Neill finalist and a 2022 Relentless Award Honorable Mention. Her musical Flophouse with co-writer Justin Anthony Long and composer Joanna Burns was a 2023 Rhinebeck finalist. Her play Ethel and Ethel premiered at the 15th season of the Obie Award winning festival, The Fire This Time. And she's a co-writer on the upcoming Animus for Aftershock Comics, which I think is so cool, by the way. Teresa, we haven't talked about this, but my survival job when I was living in New York was I actually worked at Midtown Comics. That was my job. Big comic book fan. This podcast better be funny.

This episode, y'all better bring it. The jokes have to land. She is a member of the BMI Lehman Angle Musical Theater Workshop, the Dramatists Guild of America, Actors' Equity Association, and a founding member of the Untitled Musical Writers Group. She loves Agatha Christie, Batman, and Star Wars The Force Awakens, which annoys her three grown sons and her husband, whom she recently remarried for the third time. Yes, really. That is an incredible bio with so many statements, like, you love The Force Awakens. We could talk about that, but maybe we should save that for later. Also, can we say yes, really, at the beginning? Yes, really, at the end? A writer. I try. I try. Yeah, absolutely. Way to bring it all back together.

That's a callback. All right. Next, we're going to go to Justin Anthony Long, who also wrote the book and lyrics for Flophouse. Justin is an award winning writer. His work includes The Jewel Box, a 2023 Raindance Film Festival finalist, Gone Forgotten Year, which appeared at the 2022 Tribeca Film Festival, and Flophouse, which, as we know, was a 2023 Rhinebeck Writers' Retreat finalist. I just want to say that again. And Welcome to Shoofly, part of the 2017 ASCAP DreamWorks Musical Theater Workshop. Justin's 10 minute musicals, Cookie Soiree, Big Ass Secret, and Mission to the Moon, A Tardigrade Tale, are newly available for global licensing from Musical Theater International and TheaterNow.

He co-wrote Journey to Namu, part of The Miracle Project, and performed at the Wallace Annenberg Center for the Performing Arts. Benjamin Franklin and the Legend of the Vajra, a 2018 Live Read LA winner, City of Dreams, that was featured in the New York Times, USA Today, and IndieWire, and the CBS Song for CBS's 2018 Sketch Comedy Showcase. Justin is a member of ASCAP, the Dramatist Guild, and Actors' Equity Association.

[4:15] Justin Anthony Long: So bizarre to sit and listen to somebody read your bio.

[4:21] Joanna Burns: I hope no one ever reads a bio about me. It's going to be like, Teresa is a Sephora insider.

[4:27] Teresa Attridge: And finally, we're going to move to Joanna, who did the music for Flophouse. Joanna is a queer composer, singer-songwriter from the armpit region of New Jersey. She is also a member of the Dramatist Guild and the BMI Layman Angle Musical Theater Advanced Workshop, where she was the winner of the Harrington Award for Creative Excellence. Some composer arranger credits include the web series, City of Dreams, the web pilot, Carol's a Demon, the short film, Well, Hello There, which was a Buffer Festival invitee, the opening number of the CBS Diversity Showcase, and the new musicals, We Are the Benjamin Harrison High School Horse Girls, Flophouse, and Welcome to Shoofly. She also toured the U.S. performing as a singer-songwriter.

Her LP, The Green Year, is available on Spotify and iTunes. Her non-music fascinations include Gilded Age mansion tours and puzzles of all kinds. Please ask her about them. So between like Gilded Age mansion tours and Star Wars The Force Awakens, there's so much to talk about here, but we should talk about your musical that you wrote.

[5:18] Justin Anthony Long: Oh man, it's almost like a group of people with varied backgrounds and interests and goals and dreams is the point of Flophouse.

[5:24] Joël René Scoville: That's very well said.

[5:31] Teresa Attridge: I am so curious, do y'all want to begin by saying, just for the general audience, for the barnacles, as we like to call them, if you would like to tell all of our little barnacles out there, what is sort of the big theme of Flophouse? If you were going to sum up the musical in like two, three sentences, and then we'll get to the like juicy bits later.

[5:46] Joël René Scoville: The dramatic question we're really working towards is how do you live in a world that no longer seems to value human life?

[5:58] Joël René Scoville: Actually, I'm going to read the synopsis really quick. That might be a great entrance for the listeners and slightly restated, but I love the dramatic question you're trying to answer. What do you do when the world has forgotten you? Flophouse, an original ensemble musical, explores eight people's struggle to reenter a society that disposed of them long ago. It's 2009, Obama's in the White House, billionaire Bloomberg's in his third term, and America's in a devastating recession. Down in New York's Bowery District, residents of a Flophouse, or single room occupancy, learn that thanks to gentrification, they have three days to find new housing.

[6:32] Teresa Attridge: Before we started recording, the writers asked us, how did we come to be on this podcast together? And I just said, I found your piece. Actually, Joe Barros, the artistic director of New York Theater Barn, forwarded me this piece when I read the synopsis and kind of learned what it was about. I was so intrigued by it. So yeah, we'd love to know more. Maybe I should talk about how this began, how we started talking about this. Joël, do you want to say more?

[6:47] Joël René Scoville: Yeah, I think that what was crazy was that Justin is a very funny person. And at first he was like, I don't think you meant for me to write this with you. The concept of people being evicted and homelessness, and I was like, no, you're actually the right person, because I'm very dark and melodramatic, and we need to lighten it up. And I just was so overwhelmed with housing insecurity. I came from the suburbs, I used to live in Las Vegas, and I lived in a very nice, beautiful home. And then we found ourselves no longer able to keep that home. And the trauma that happens, and then moving to New York and seeing the have and the have-nots really began to weigh on me. It was a rainy day in October, I'm sitting on my couch just watching documentary after documentary about this fake American dream that was basically created by Mad Men on Fifth Avenue.

And I just was like, I think that theater and art are supposed to be artivision, as opposed to activism, just in case people didn't understand what that word meant. Anyway, and I really wanted to talk about housing insecurity. And I wanted to talk about how any one of us could be displaced, could be homeless. And I live in East Harlem, and I see the disparity because you just cross over 96, and you're on the Upper East Side, and it's a completely different world. And I was just really taken about how we just forget about people. People are disposable if they're not rich.

[9:25] Justin Anthony Long: I was gonna say, of all the places I've been to in my entire life, New York has that disparity on display more than any other. You have the wealthiest of the wealthiest, then you take the subway, or even you cross the street, and suddenly you're in a different world. I thought it was very appropriate. And also, I didn't realize you had that personal connection. And I think that that's what also has been both challenging, but also authentic about us writing this piece is that we're all coming from different financial demographics, but we've all experienced going without. And we've been able to tap into our own personal experiences of losing a house or having to move because you can't afford the rent anymore. I don't know. I think that we're the right people to tell this story.

[10:07] Joanna Burns: Absolutely. I very much resonate with that as someone whose family went through something very similar after the 2008-2009 crash, because my parents did have a building that they no longer have as a result. And it's very interesting having graduated high school in 2009 to date myself, right? But one of the things that really struck me was the year and where this musical was set, because I have such a visceral memory of that recession and how it affected me and the people around me, but also the degree to which it affected the people around me. I'm from San Francisco, and so gentrification, it's kind of similar to here in New York, but it hit so fast and so hard that I know maybe one or two people that I grew up with who still can't afford to live there, and nobody owns.

The show very much deals with themes of displacement and the idea of, well, where do I go? And for some of them, it's, well, I have a dream I could pursue. And for some people, it's, I have a dream that was a lie. And for some people, it was, I had my chance at my dream, and it did not work. And I think having those different perspectives and ages really rounds out how wonderful a piece this is. It's nice to have an ensemble musical. I feel like so many musicals right now are star vehicles, where it's like, we're like, okay, yeah, we have the show, and then clearly, Sutton will take over at some point, Patty will take over at some, we have the grand dream. And in this one, I'm like, man, I would love to see the eight powerhouses that you would get for this show, right? Because it's not a vehicle for one person, it's a vehicle for every person, and they could all be unknown. This could be a rent situation, and that would be incredibly exciting.

[11:42] Joël René Scoville: The other thing I just wanted to add, I think setting it in 2009 is very fascinating, and I'd love to hear more about that decision. But the idea of Mayor Bloomberg offering one-way tickets just to get homeless people out of the city, we just don't want them here. Send them anywhere else but here. A word that keeps coming up for me is forgotten. The people who are forgotten. We see that again with the recent migrant situation where you had governors putting them on a bus or flying them somewhere else, making promises to them, and then they end up completely displaced again. I think that again, it's this theme that we keep thinking that people are just disposable, that we can just push them off instead of actually helping them, instead of being a community.

[12:25] Teresa Attridge: How did Joanna get involved in the creation of the piece?

[12:31] Justin Anthony Long: Well, Justin and I had worked on a bunch of things over the years. I did not know Joëlle at this time, but I remember I was folding laundry, and Justin called me and said,

[12:36] Joanna Burns: Hey, that was an incredible impression.

[12:46] Justin Anthony Long: Wow, there's some chemistry in this room. Well, here's the thing. And so, Justin, I don't know if you know this about yourself, but you can sell me anything. Basically, I just believe in you. I felt like, I really mean that if Justin is excited about something, he cannot help but talk about it in a way that just makes me want in. If he was saying, this is something that I think is worth looking at. And even then, there was this caveat, if it's not for you, don't worry. If you don't have time, don't worry. But I watched the documentary. I was like, wow, this is actually incredible. And it's nothing that I had ever worked on with him before. Everything we wrote prior to that was ridiculous comedy.

[13:21] Joanna Burns: Saying in a wonderful way, but totally just not the same thing. It was exciting to me, as Joël, you were saying too, to work with Justin on something that was going to have this gravity that we had never explored before. So then they were like, hey, do you want to write a song to see if this would be a good fit? And that's what happened. And so I don't think that song will be in the show, but that's how I—Isn't that the way? Well, that early, you're just sort of writing, you're taking your best guess like that early on. Joël and I lyrically, I mean, Joanna crushed the music, but like, you know, between then and now we've just sort of learned so much about the world, the characters, explored them and developed them more. And yeah, that song probably won't be in the show, but that's okay. Just out of curiosity, who was the song for?

[14:10] Justin Anthony Long: That you wrote, I'm Nothing. It was for The Philosopher.

[14:13] Joël René Scoville: What a philosophy song. Now might be a really good time to talk about the different characters that are—

[14:19] Joanna Burns: Yes. Something that I was very, very intrigued by, and perhaps I'm projecting this, you can correct me. As we're talking about people who are forgotten, it struck me that they're nameless. The philosopher or the woman—

[14:27] Joël René Scoville: The optimist.

[14:30] Joanna Burns: The optimist. They don't even have names. It almost felt allegorical to me. And as you said, any of us could find ourselves in this position, but can you talk to me about the decision and why you chose the different characters or archetypes that you chose? Maybe they're not archetypes, but I'd love to know more about that structure.

[14:45] Joël René Scoville: Well, we all defer to each other all the time. I would say the cutest thing about this podcast so far is every time we ask a question, you all smile so big and just politely wait for each other. It's clearly a room where everyone values what everyone has to say to the degree that we just can't wait.

[15:03] Justin Anthony Long: So much. There's so much respect in this room. It's palpable.

[15:06] Joanna Burns: Yeah. For a podcast, ideal.

[15:08] Joël René Scoville: A disgusting amount of respect. Just devastating amount.

[15:15] Justin Anthony Long: I think the namelessness came out of just the thematic idea that we're working around where these people, these residents, they're discarded by the world. Nobody takes the time to talk to them, learn about them, know them deeply. One day, I think we were just talking, we were like, what if we just don't name them at all? And at the end of the show, when the city official who is sort of dealing with the evictions, she says something like, I didn't get your name. And the clerk, who's nameless, but labeled as the clerk in the show, he says, doesn't even matter. Tomorrow, I'll just be another person on the street that you'll walk by anyway. It's a line like that. I'm not quoting it right. We thought it just sort of really highlighted the theme of the show, just that these people are just forgotten.

[16:01] Joanna Burns: I think that you said it so eloquently. Do you ever stop when you're giving money? If you give money to someone, do you ask them their name? Do you even look them in the eye? That's really what it is. And I think at the same time, it was also to show how this could be you tomorrow. You could be on the street singing for your money. You could be asking for money on the subway. You could lose your job tomorrow. We're all one paycheck away from being distraught. That is the America that we have currently. I think it also speaks to this idea of intimacy and false intimacy, specifically. This idea that we go in and we share this really profound experience and we leave and we're like, who were they?

And you realize that you didn't ever catch it in the way that you were saying, like, if you give someone money, you're like, oh, you know, I saw someone in the street and this was happening. And I felt this huge, profound experience and felt this way about life. And it changed my perspective. And then you're like, oh, well, yeah, did you talk to them? Did you know what was their name? Like what happened? It's like, oh, no, I was just thinking to myself.

[17:04] Joël René Scoville: Right. And we realized we're like, I had such a deep, profound, intimate experience with someone I know nothing about. Yeah. And you get to know these characters' thoughts and desires and their dreams and how these dreams are defeated. And yet you still don't get to know their names. So there was something very powerful about that. I was thinking about a lot as I was reading the piece, was just the American dream. We were talking about comic books earlier. And, you know, it's funny. So weird to say, but, you know, Captain America is my favorite superhero. So maybe I'll cut this. Maybe I won't. But, you know, what I find that's interesting about that character is that he's always fighting for the American dream.

But as I've grown older, I've started to question, but what happens if that dream doesn't exist anymore? Is the American dream a myth or is it a myth for many people and only real for some people? I felt this piece did a very good job of poking a hole in the myth that the America of just pull yourself up by your bootstraps exists anymore. It's hard when you have no shoes. And I think that what's great that you bring up Captain America, because I literally was just watching Winter Soldier 48 hours ago. And that is the moment when Captain America changes and he wonders, who have I been fighting for? I thought I was fighting for the good guys. And that's also when Captain America became one of my favorites.

Really, this thing is that we're all working so hard to reach this level of success and security. And the goalpost just keeps moving. We're talking about how our parents and grandparents were looking at us and we're looking at our children. And there used to be a time when you could make, you could be a one income family and make $75,000 a year, you were set, you were fine. And now minimum, you have to make $145,000 a year to support even like a family of four. And that's two people working and maybe a side hustle. And your kids are not doing anything extracurricular. Oh, and you're not buying your house, you're probably renting it because some hedge fund owns the property. Or you inherit your house.

Oh, wow. When my grandfather passed a few years ago, he was an immigrant. And my grandparents, my family, he came by joining the military. So I come from a military family. The idea of the American dream was very important to them. And we were very hard ingrained with that. My grandparents didn't teach their children Tagalog. And none of us learned how to speak it because they were like, an accent will keep you from having the dream we have for you. So they sort of cut us off. And so I remember at his funeral, I was chosen to represent my cousins and speak at the funeral. And one of the things I talked about was the idea that the American dream is an inheritance more than it is something that we individually have at this point.

Because for so many of us, especially those of us who come from immigrant families, it is something that is given to you or something that someone is like, I expect you to take care of this, of this intangible idea that I have decided to leave you because I did it for you. And how you choose to value it, I haven't acknowledged whether or not that has changed or what it means when you have it in your hands. And I feel like this show addresses that a lot as well. You have a really great array of diversity in these characters. And I would love to hear more about, and we touched on this a little in the question originally, but to dive deeper into not just like the archetypes and the names, but the backgrounds and the stories of these people, having a veteran, having an immigrant, having a trans woman, what made you decide on those specific stories? Or is this based on something that you saw, say in the documentary?

[20:33] Joanna Burns: When we initially started, we were trying to stay in line with the documentary. But then we discovered that in doing research, there was a book about flop houses. There were New York Times articles about flop houses and interviews with so many people. We began to realize that there were so many types of people and so many stories that we wanted to address. And it became more about each of these characters representing a cluster of people. We did want a veteran because we see how veterans were treated, that they give their lives and make sacrifices. And we cheer for them on Memorial Day, Veterans Day, and we're always screaming about support our troops, but we don't support them when they come home.

It was important that we have this character. And it was also really important to us that we really wanted as much diversity as possible. And that also was coming from, and I was very honest with Justin at the very beginning when we were starting, is that my mission as a writer is I have to write stories for Black people. I feel that responsibility. I take it very seriously, and I'm very proud and happy to do it. So I was like, I absolutely want to write this musical with these two white people, but there have to be some people of color in the show, because I feel like it's my responsibility and duty to do that. Absolutely.

[21:55] Justin Anthony Long: Well, I think now might be a good time for us to play our first demo, actually, because I feel like the song 'Til I Get Back on My Feet' does a really good job of introducing us to these characters. Would anyone like to introduce the piece for us?

[22:06] Joël René Scoville: Yeah, so the placement of this song is, I guess, still up in the air, especially as we approach another version of what the libretto will look like. But essentially, this is where we meet our central characters, and we learn what they have been striving for this whole time, and similar to, as we all always discuss, similar to sort of a chorus line, where we have this large sort of goal that everybody is wanting in the sense of they need a place to live, they are being pushed out of this place, and then we learn their individual motivations as well.

[22:39] Joanna Burns: Fantastic. Do you happen to know the name of the performers on this track?

[22:43] Justin Anthony Long: I do. It's 200 of me on everything, just on every single thing.

[22:49] Joanna Burns: I've asked this question before, and sometimes people are like, it's 200 me.

[22:52] Justin Anthony Long: Fantastic. Well, you sound brilliant. Okay, well.

[22:55] Joanna Burns: Thanks. It's a flop house of you. You are the flop house.

[23:02] Justin Anthony Long: At the moment, yes, we really look forward to having actors of proper age, type, gender, everything sing these parts, but right now, yes, it's a million of me.

[23:10] Joanna Burns: I suspect as so. Here is 'Til I Get Back on My Feet,' performed by Joanna Burns.

[23:32] ♪ Musical number: "Til I Get Back On My Feet" — performed by Joanna Burns ♪

[26:43] Joanna Burns: Wow, that song is so moving. I love the way it starts with the acoustic guitar and it just builds from there.

[27:01] Justin Anthony Long: So good. Also, whoa, the fact that 200 views made me feel 200 feelings. That's art, babe.

[27:12] Joanna Burns: Actually, I have to say, singing that song, I don't know if I ever told you both this, Joël and Justin, but recording that song for the first time, or the time, I suppose, as it were, it got me very emotional singing. But by the time I'd built the instrumental underneath it, when I went to actually sing the part, I was really welling up because I was like, this feels, there's something so compelling here that I have never really felt that before working on a demo. It was a very special moment that I think about a lot, actually.

[27:41] Joël René Scoville: Well, I think the song, if I may, is emblematic of the piece because it feels like so many people who find themselves in the flophouse believe it's temporary. But as the time goes on, they're finding out no, and they're feeling those walls kind of closing up around them. They're really trapped there in that small little space. The part of that song that I just find so heartbreaking is, I was gonna, you know, each of them said, I was gonna, I was gonna, they all had these dreams, they all had these dreams, and we get to know them individually, and yet we don't know their names. Then we learn, you know, there's so much hope and expectation in these people as we're meeting them. And then we see throughout the piece, these defeated expectations.

[28:14] Joanna Burns: It reminds me of one of my favorite musical theater songs, actually, which is from Working, What I Could Have Been, which is a beautiful song. It just pulls at the gut because, you know, everyone has something that they've sacrificed along the way, something that didn't quite work out or something that they're working towards, but they feel like, do I have to compromise this idea of what I want? I feel like us as artists especially, because to pursue art and to pursue making theater, I think especially, so much of it is what comforts am I willing to sacrifice? Or like, how much of my artistic time am I willing to make? Do I take the multiple gig jobs so that I have the flexibility to commit more time to theater, but I'm on minimum wage trying to live?

Do I invest in my family and I do theater when I can? Do I try to balance a mixture of both? So I feel like that resonates, at least for me, it resonated in the sense that it feels like there's always something that's just right there, but there's also something that was just there that I missed. I thought that was just really beautiful.

[29:13] Justin Anthony Long: Well, also to underscore what you were saying earlier about how it can be, anybody can find themselves in this position. I'm gonna read some lyrics. This is The Optimist saying, got over here seven years ago, thought I had the right stuff. Two degrees, two PhDs, but it wasn't enough. I work hard, do any job, try best as I can, but I still believe in the American dream, just not for every man. There's that feeling too of like, I have done everything I was told that I had to do to get the dream. And yet it's still out of reach. We always say that this podcast is vaguely political, but it's getting political in here today. We just know that there's a certain wealth or a certain power that is held by a small percentage of people. And that's not achievable for every person.

[29:51] Joël René Scoville: I just wanted to celebrate Joanna on that song. That was the first song the three of us wrote together. And I remember exactly where I was when she sent it to me. It was a Saturday afternoon. My husband was in the kitchen. We got the track. And I remember I heard the song, Rob and I listened to it together, and we both stood in shock in the kitchen. And then I immediately called Justin and said, are you freaking kidding me? Are you freaking kidding me? And then I FaceTimed Joanna and was just screaming. And I was like, Joanna, you've got to be kidding me. And I think that that's when Justin and I, and I'm going to get very emotional about it, because I think that's when Justin and I said, we have a show, we have a story, we have a show.

And we have to get the story out. And it was that one song that she was able to take the message that we were trying to get out. And she did it so incredibly well. And you're absolutely right. That bridge, I was gonna, it is gut punching. And it's just, it's overwhelming, because all I could hear in that, you know, especially living here in East Harlem was I could just hear all of the black and brown men who had so many dreams that have been taken from them, whether it be because of a corrupt legal system, or because every time black and brown people get something, it's taken away. Like I just all I was hearing was all of the things that people want to do that it just doesn't happen. So I just want to say to the world, Joanna, and I'll say it again, when we win our Tony, I just want to say that you were able to musicalize these dreams that even I have had, because I think it's the best song that's ever been written.

[31:37] Joanna Burns: Well, thank you for saying that. But you know, the lyrics, they say what, like, I was able to yes, and you musically, you know, and I guess I think a lot of what I think about on that song, but even just thematically, is this idea of we're talking about, it could be anyone. And there's also this sense, you know, people say something to the effect of, oh, I'm not broke, I'm poor, or I'm not poor, I'm broke, right? The difference between broken and poor. And I think that the difference is this sense of hope, or I think that we all have something in our lives that is a question for us that we think is going to happen, or we hope that will happen. And there are moments where we feel like, am I being delusional? Was I delusional the whole time? At what point was it totally just a lie? And I think we all have things that feel like that. For me, that's a thing that I personally connect to in the experiences of these individuals.

[32:28] Joël René Scoville: Same. And I feel like, you know, a lot of these characters, they're a bit older, you know, they're 40s plus, and I don't know, but like, as everybody in this Zoom box becomes more mature, as it's a privilege to age.

[32:43] Joanna Burns: It is. Speak on it.

[32:49] Joël René Scoville: We told you there'd be some comedy. What I'm trying to say is, I was gonna, like, I was gonna be the king of blues. I was gonna paint a million faces, see so many places. Eventually, we will all run out of time. I think there's so much universality in what we're trying to get across. And like Joël said, at different points, we can all be one paycheck away from that's us. There is such palpable love and humanity on this team. I'm so happy y'all are here today. Really, truly. Thank you for introducing that moment of levity, because I was getting very emotional. I didn't know how to segue out of it. I think this actually is a perfect opportunity to play Ruby Woo, if you'd like to introduce that song, because that's all shade, by the way, Ruby Woo has always been that girl. I know Ruby Woo, intimately. Yes. The perfect red for the neutral girlies.

[33:38] Joanna Burns: See? See, I didn't know this. Joël is the one who introduced this concept. She was like, no, you don't understand. This is what this is. Ruby Woo changed the game. I am people. I know Ruby Woo. Joël, I'm here. I see you. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. Us Mac girls gotta stick together. Thank you very much. Gotta stick together. So Ruby Woo, how did this come to pass? How? I'm thinking about how we were talking about the woman. We specifically did not want for it to be trauma porn. We didn't want to do that to trans women. We refused to do it. And we wanted to make it, what's her dream? She wants to be a makeup artist. And so what's tangible? And I was like, well, everyone remembers their first shade of lipstick.

What is that? And I said, well, clearly it has to be Ruby Woo, because that's the most perfect shade of red. And I remember when Mac's big pitch was any woman of any shade can wear it. And I do, you're right, Joanna, they did not know what I was talking about. And I was like, I don't understand. I know exactly what you were talking about to a degree that is feral and unhinged. And without further ado, here is Ruby Woo.

[35:13] ♪ Musical number: "Ruby Woo" — performed by Joanna Burns ♪

[38:36] Joël René Scoville: So it's almost a metaphor for the woman. And if that feels impossible, and yet Ruby Woo is the answer.

[38:40] Joanna Burns: I did want to pop one more thing in about Ruby Woo. We had a lot of fun. We basically were doing an ode to 80s music because we were thinking about when the woman would have been 15 and we were thinking about all of the pop divas during that time. And to age myself, hardcore Madonna fan, it was a tribute to Vogue in there. Justin and I had a lot of fun just writing ridiculous lyrics.

[39:04] Justin Anthony Long: It's coming for more Chanel.

[39:06] Joanna Burns: That's what I was going to say about this song was when I listened to it, I was transported back to the 80s. I haven't said this about any song in the last 20 years, but I'm like, this song is such a groove. It just made me feel so good. Now I understand it on a whole new profound level. I think that y'all have sold me, actually. I just had this conversation with my own mother. I just can't seem to find a proper shade of lipstick. I feel ridiculous. I think I'm going to try Ruby Woo.

[39:32] Joël René Scoville: And then you have to send a selfie.