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[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Backstage Pass, we're world class, with even more in store. Get your Backstage Pass, master class, with even more in store.

[0:22] Teresa Attridge: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to make the exclusive, inclusive.

[0:28] Teresa Attridge: We're interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time.

[0:33] Teresa Attridge: This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:35] Teresa Attridge: Get your Backstage Pass. Get your Backstage Pass.

[0:43] Teresa Attridge: Hi Barnacles! Hello, hello, it's Teresa. And pals.

[0:48] Pauls Macs: And we are so excited. We have another scrum-diddle-yumptious musical in here today, I must confess. That'll make sense later.

[0:55] Teresa Attridge: All right, we have Sean and Jinhee, hi!

[0:58] Sean McCabe: Hello! Thank you for having us.

[1:02] Teresa Attridge: Oh my gosh, it's a joy to have you. Everyone is welcome in the Church of Christ.

[1:07] Pauls Macs: And the Church of Backstage Pass. We're so excited to have you here. I read the show like about a year and a half ago for New York Theatre Barn's new work series.

[1:14] Teresa Attridge: It's something that has just always stayed with me as a show, like I really want to keep following and keep track of.

[1:18] Teresa Attridge: I'm really pleased to finally meet you and to talk about Saint Sebastian.

[1:22] Pauls Macs: Pals is an OG fan of the show.

[1:23] Sean McCabe: Love that.

[1:25] Pauls Macs: There are certain shows that when you encounter them, the same thing actually happened with King of Pangaea that was not on the pod too long ago.

[1:31] Pauls Macs: But I saw that show at NAMMT like three years ago and I was like, it's going on the pod, we need to talk with Martin Storrow.

[1:37] Pauls Macs: It's just so exciting to have you here and to kind of, I don't know, gush about this piece that we love so much.

[1:42] Jinhee Kim: Oh, that means so much. We're so happy to be here. We love talking about it and yeah.

[1:47] Teresa Attridge: Why don't we go ahead and introduce the amazing guest we have here today.

[1:51] Pauls Macs: So I'm going to read your bios.

[1:53] Pauls Macs: Jenny, why don't we start with you?

[1:55] Jinhee Kim: Jenny Kim is a composer and teaching artist from South Korea.

[1:58] Jinhee Kim: She has received several awards for her concert pieces, including at the Seoul Composition Music Festival.

[2:03] Jinhee Kim: Most recently, her musical, Here Piwadong, was named New Work of the Year by the Performing Arts Creation Center hosted by the Arts Council of Korea and was performed in 2024 in Seoul.

[2:13] Jinhee Kim: Her musical, St. Sebastian, with book and lyrics by Sean McCabe, has been developed by New York Theater Barn, the Tisch New Musical Theater Workshop at NYU, and the New York Conservatory for Dramatic Arts.

[2:23] Jinhee Kim: And was presented in concert by the New York Public Library for the Performing Arts as part of their Broadway's Future Songbook Series at Lincoln Center.

[2:30] Jinhee Kim: Jenny holds an MFA from the Graduate Musical Theater Writing Program at NYU Tisch, an MM in Music Theory and Composition from NYU Steinhardt, and a BM in Music Composition from Hanyang University in Seoul.

[2:40] Jinhee Kim: She is an adjunct faculty of music at Choon-Ang University in South Korea, where she teaches private lessons and musical theater writing.

[2:47] Pauls Macs: Sean, we're going to do you next.

[2:49] Sean McCabe: Sean McCabe is a musical theater composer, lyricist, and book writer originally from Canada.

[2:54] Sean McCabe: His work has been performed at Lincoln Center, Playwrights Horizons, The Players at Gramercy Park, Two River Theater, and elsewhere.

[3:00] Sean McCabe: Sean's musical, St. Sebastian, with music by Jenny Kim, has been presented by the New York Public Library for the Performing Arts, New York Theater Barn, shout out, and the NYU Tisch New Musical Theater Workshop.

[3:10] Sean McCabe: Most recently, Sean won the Drama League's Anthem for the Future of Theater for his song, One Day, with music by Polly Peccarella, and was in residence at the Catwalk Art Institute to develop his new musical, The Covenant, a queer adaptation of the biblical story of David and Jonathan.

[3:24] Sean McCabe: Sean has his MFA from NYU's Graduate Musical Theater Writing Program.

[3:28] Teresa Attridge: All right, well thank you both for being here, so excited to meet you.

[3:32] Pauls Macs: There's a lot of acute angles in here, and by that I mean degrees.

[3:37] Teresa Attridge: Well, this is giving education in here.

[3:42] Pauls Macs: We've got faculty on the pod again.

[3:46] Teresa Attridge: And we're about to get schooled.

[3:49] Pauls Macs: Faculty on the pod, respect your teachers, pay them more.

[3:55] Teresa Attridge: This one has two master degrees from NYU, Jenny does.

[4:00] Pauls Macs: You were like, honestly, one's not enough, I'm too good.

[4:03] Jinhee Kim: She said, one's not enough, yeah.

[4:06] Teresa Attridge: Well, one of the first questions we generally ask is, how did you meet and come to collaborate?

[4:11] Teresa Attridge: And I have a feeling that the Graduate Musical Theater Writing Program at NYU had something to do with it.

[4:16] Teresa Attridge: Talking about how you met and that collaboration would be fantastic.

[4:19] Teresa Attridge: And also, I would be so curious to know the origins of St. Sebastian, because again, it's a piece that I absolutely love.

[4:26] Teresa Attridge: It's a piece I actually really relate to.

[4:29] Teresa Attridge: I'd love to hear how it all got started.

[4:30] Sean McCabe: Well, Jenny and I first met on Hinge.

[4:33] Jinhee Kim: Just kidding.

[4:35] Sean McCabe: We've got funny writers.

[4:37] Sean McCabe: About Hinge, it's the app meant to be deleted.

[4:40] Jinhee Kim: It's the app meant to be deleted.

[4:42] Sean McCabe: I work at a bridal salon part-time, oh my gosh, revealing our real life on the pod.

[4:46] Sean McCabe: And I am not kidding when I say two or three out of five brides meet online, and they are all meeting on Hinge.

[4:53] Jinhee Kim: If you were to get married, get on Hinge.

[4:56] Sean McCabe: Okay, good to know.

[4:57] Sean McCabe: It's not sponsored, but it honestly should be.

[5:00] Jinhee Kim: Can I say, this is so funny, because an episode or two ago, I was the one who was like, download this single, here with you.

[5:06] Jinhee Kim: Follow this person on Instagram.

[5:08] Jinhee Kim: And now Teresa's like, download this app, make it happen, get married.

[5:11] Sean McCabe: It is the way of the Lord.

[5:13] Teresa Attridge: Okay.

[5:15] Sean McCabe: Bring it back.

[5:17] Sean McCabe: No, the truth is, yes, we met at the Graduate Musical Theater Writing Program at NYU.

[5:23] Jinhee Kim: It's a mouthful.

[5:25] Sean McCabe: It's a mouthful.

[5:27] Sean McCabe: We'll call it.

[5:29] Sean McCabe: It's a two-year master's program where you write a musical, basically.

[5:32] Sean McCabe: And it was a great, great experience.

[5:34] Sean McCabe: We graduated in 2018.

[5:36] Sean McCabe: That's where we met, right, Jenny?

[5:38] Jinhee Kim: Yes, right.

[5:40] Sean McCabe: And at that program, in your first year, so half of the students are words people.

[5:44] Sean McCabe: I'm sure you've had people on the podcast who are alums before, I don't know.

[5:47] Sean McCabe: So maybe this has all been covered.

[5:49] Teresa Attridge: You know what, I can tell you.

[5:51] Teresa Attridge: I can tell you with certainty, actually, because I was thinking about this before we started this podcast today.

[5:53] Teresa Attridge: On the New Work Series, and that's on YouTube.

[5:56] Teresa Attridge: I'm going to be the person who's like, go to the New York Theater Barn Archives now.

[5:59] Teresa Attridge: If you go on the New Work Series archives on our YouTube page, you'll find people who met and collaborated at NYU.

[6:05] Teresa Attridge: And they'll talk about how they're trying to suss out who's their right creative partner.

[6:09] Sean McCabe: That's right.

[6:11] Pauls Macs: But for our podcast, I'm not sure we've ever had a NYU matchmaker, matchmaker, make me a match kind of.

[6:16] Sean McCabe: Yeah, honestly, NYU are the first.

[6:19] Jinhee Kim: What?

[6:21] Pauls Macs: This is a funny group today.

[6:23] Pauls Macs: I'm really excited.

[6:25] Sean McCabe: Honestly, the jokes are ready. It must be all the master's degrees.

[6:28] Jinhee Kim: It must be.

[6:30] Pauls Macs: Almost enough to go around.

[6:32] Teresa Attridge: Yeah, that's amazing to hear because that is so rare for us.

[6:34] Teresa Attridge: I feel like every space we go into that is new musical theater in the city and elsewhere is full of, which we're grateful for, full of alums of the program.

[6:42] Sean McCabe: Yeah, it's a two-year program.

[6:44] Sean McCabe: The first year, half of the students are words people.

[6:46] Sean McCabe: So book and lyrics.

[6:48] Sean McCabe: Half are composers.

[6:50] Sean McCabe: And they sort of pair you up with everybody.

[6:51] Sean McCabe: And you've got a bunch of different small assignments and you sort of learn who you work with and whose work you respond to.

[6:57] Sean McCabe: And then at the end of the year, you anonymously submit a list of your top collaborators.

[7:02] Sean McCabe: And they do some magic behind the scenes and they put you together.

[7:05] Sean McCabe: And in your second year, you're just with one collaborator for a full year.

[7:09] Sean McCabe: And you leave that experience with the first draft of a 90-minute musical.

[7:13] Jinhee Kim: So that was our story.

[7:15] Teresa Attridge: I love that.

[7:17] Teresa Attridge: I have to say, I find this whole process at NYU to be fascinating because it's kind of like the Hunger Games.

[7:22] Sean McCabe: Because you get like one year to figure out who's your ideal creative partner within the program.

[7:27] Jinhee Kim: Yeah, and then you kill each other off and only one team graduates.

[7:30] Sean McCabe: That's right.

[7:32] Sean McCabe: That's exactly how it is.

[7:34] Teresa Attridge: And I'm glad that you're both like the champions who made it out.

[7:37] Sean McCabe: We made it out.

[7:39] Sean McCabe: I feel bad for those other students.

[7:41] Jinhee Kim: Representing South Korea and Canada, we are.

[7:43] Sean McCabe: We did it.

[7:45] Sean McCabe: Hard cuss sounds.

[7:47] Jinhee Kim: That's right.

[7:49] Teresa Attridge: When it comes to finding chemistry with another writer, whether it's writing music or lyrics or orchestration, what is that sort of moment like when you realize you really gel with another creator?

[7:58] Pauls Macs: You know, I think we've had a lot of people who met online on the podcast.

[8:06] Pauls Macs: You know, given the pandemic and sort of just people are collaborating all over.

[8:09] Pauls Macs: We've had a lot of pandemic love stories.

[8:11] Sean McCabe: A lot, a lot.

[8:13] Pauls Macs: But for you two, who have more of a like academic rivals turn lovers situation, what is that moment like when you started first talking and working together?

[8:18] Pauls Macs: And then did you have like an aha moment where you're like, oh, like we click. There's like a shared vocabulary here.

[8:28] Jinhee Kim: Jenny, do you want to share first?

[8:30] Jinhee Kim: Yeah, because of course, like all other collaboration with other awards people were amazing.

[8:34] Jinhee Kim: Especially when we did a like small assignment with Sean.

[8:40] Jinhee Kim: That one is like a verse chorus song.

[8:43] Jinhee Kim: And then I feel I'm really fun writing with Sean.

[8:45] Jinhee Kim: And also the feedback was really, I'm really happy with the feedback.

[8:50] Jinhee Kim: And do you remember Sean?

[8:52] Sean McCabe: Do you remember the feedback from the faculties?

[8:55] Jinhee Kim: They said, oh, it feels like one person write the song, which means, oh, it's kind of like great example of the collaborations.

[9:02] Jinhee Kim: I'm really honored.

[9:04] Jinhee Kim: I'm really touched with that comments from the professors.

[9:07] Jinhee Kim: I'm really happy with that from the experience.

[9:10] Sean McCabe: Yeah, I remember it so well.

[9:12] Sean McCabe: I think there are a few layers to it.

[9:14] Sean McCabe: Like you have to be excited by your collaborators work.

[9:18] Sean McCabe: And that was easy with Jenny.

[9:20] Sean McCabe: Like I just think she's brilliant.

[9:22] Sean McCabe: And I always have.

[9:24] Sean McCabe: And I still do.

[9:26] Sean McCabe: And like it was such a dream to work with her.

[9:28] Sean McCabe: And it still is.

[9:30] Sean McCabe: Anytime she shows me new music, I'm so excited because I think her voice is unique and thrilling and beautiful and so different from mine musically.

[9:37] Sean McCabe: And I just love that.

[9:38] Sean McCabe: But then also it's about like how you work together and just your energy and your communication.

[9:45] Sean McCabe: We were really, really lucky.

[9:47] Sean McCabe: Like you referred to other collaborations and, you know, it's a high pressure situation.

[9:52] Sean McCabe: There are lots of fascinating stories of people in our program years before and after us and in our year who had all kinds of different experiences.

[10:01] Sean McCabe: And I would say we were really blessed that it was so positive.

[10:05] Sean McCabe: Like we just, I don't know how we got so lucky, but we both just had a lot of patience with each other and a lot of joy in the process.

[10:14] Sean McCabe: It's almost annoying to say, but I don't think there was like ever tension, really.

[10:17] Jinhee Kim: It also was a long time ago. So maybe I'm misremembering.

[10:21] Sean McCabe: Jenny's like, oh, there was.

[10:23] Jinhee Kim: You are not remembering it.

[10:25] Teresa Attridge: Well, this has to be said.

[10:27] Teresa Attridge: I think this has to be said.

[10:29] Teresa Attridge: So Jenny, this is our first international podcast because Jenny is in South Korea right now joining us.

[10:32] Teresa Attridge: It's very early in the morning.

[10:35] Jinhee Kim: Thank you, Jenny, for being here.

[10:37] Jinhee Kim: Thank you for inviting me, having me.

[10:40] Teresa Attridge: Oh my gosh, of course.

[10:42] Teresa Attridge: Where are you specifically?

[10:44] Jinhee Kim: Right now, my home in Seoul.

[10:46] Teresa Attridge: Amazing.

[10:48] Teresa Attridge: But also the fact that your collaboration has continued to flourish crossing oceans is just really, really beautiful and fantastic.

[10:53] Sean McCabe: Yeah, on a plane.

[10:55] Pauls Macs: A big theme in the show.

[10:57] Teresa Attridge: Oh my God, Paul, do you think that you could like let us all know, like, can you have your little cute synopsis, your book report?

[11:01] Pauls Macs: Yeah, let me go ahead and read the synopsis just so we all know what we're talking about. And then we'll talk about how it came to be, because I'm fascinated about that.

[11:09] Pauls Macs: You know, I'm like, did they work on this at NYU?

[11:11] Pauls Macs: But before we get there, I'll read this.

[11:13] Pauls Macs: St. Sebastian is a queer coming of age musical comedy set on a Christian retreat farm over one Easter weekend.

[11:19] Pauls Macs: At the heart of the story is the relationship of Sebastian, a sheltered, naive kid whose parents own the farm, and Jamie, a housing insecure kid staying at the farm with his single mother.

[11:28] Pauls Macs: It's a story about socioeconomic privilege, the awkwardness of adolescence and queerness in conflict with a religious tradition.

[11:35] Pauls Macs: So can you talk to me about where it came from? Did you start working on this at NYU or was this like after NYU?

[11:41] Sean McCabe: No, this was at NYU. So this was our, this was our thesis musical actually.

[11:46] Jinhee Kim: No!

[11:48] Sean McCabe: Yeah, it was. It really was. Yeah, the way it came to be, you know, it started with a lot of conversations just about our lives and getting to know each other. Both of us grew up in the Catholic church.

[11:57] Jinhee Kim: Same.

[11:59] Sean McCabe: Okay. Shout out. Shout all the way out. That leaves an impact on a, on a person, certainly. Especially going through adolescence, like obviously is an already very challenging time for everyone in the best of circumstances. And being like a gay kid in that kind of conservative environment, it can make you feel kind of crazy sometimes.

[12:22] Sean McCabe: Like that was my experience. Certainly very isolating, very challenging. And I was lucky.

[12:27] Sean McCabe: And I think Ginny would say the same and that we had pretty loving open families. And so we were fortunate for that.

[12:33] Sean McCabe: But in terms of just the world around me at that time, I just, I didn't even know a future was possible for me in that way.

[12:41] Sean McCabe: All these years later, you know, having recovered from that, it was just a journey to go back and look at that experience and sort of excavate it, make fun of it and create this sort of fantastical story around it.

[12:53] Sean McCabe: What was kind of fun was that we got to invent a friendship for this protagonist and give him an ally and someone who's going through that, which I didn't have and sort of get to reflect his own experience back to him. And that's the magic of writing a, an original show.

[13:11] Sean McCabe: I did for some years when I was very young. This was pre-adolescence, but I did sort of grow up on exactly this place, a Christian farm where low-income families would come and stay for weekends. My parents and actually another family who lived there and the church kind of ran the program and there were barn animals. There was a big forest and horses and hayrides and potluck dinners and all that kind of stuff. And I still have lots of memories from that time, just meeting all kinds of different people and kids and families from different backgrounds. There were also some really kooky things that happened there. Like we did every Easter weekend, they did a full recreation of the Passion of Christ with somebody being Jesus walking around the property with a cross and we would all follow them and sing songs.

[13:49] Jinhee Kim: Oh yeah, you'd do the procession?

[13:50] Sean McCabe: We did the full procession. And you'd have like, he falls, he falls again. The third station, Jesus falls for the first time. And then we would have these big, it was like very social justice oriented, these big signs, Jesus falls for the first time, and then you turn the sign around. And it's like a contemporary comparison. It's like a woman in, you know, whatever country like falls in the streets. Anyway, all to say it was a kooky, intense, dramatic, strange, wonderful, problematic place and definitely full of possibility for a musical.

[14:34] Jinhee Kim: That's insane. That's like an amazing way, in the best possible way, because I assumed reading this, I will let you know, I grew up, I wouldn't say I grew up, but I was raised in the Lutheran church.

[14:52] Sean McCabe: Okay, well kind of Catholic.

[14:53] Jinhee Kim: I will confess, I guessed that this place was an invention. It seemed so beyond and so hilarious and so incredible. Now I can tell that you've still made some embellishments and I will go into why I love them so much.

[15:05] Sean McCabe: No, there were really animals that were shaming about watching them commit sexual acts. That actually happened. Anything can happen on a Christian farm.

[15:16] Jinhee Kim: Anything, anything.

[15:17] Sean McCabe: That is right. Especially how Father Blucher is like the head priest, but he's also a prima donna theater director. That is just so great, because this is a show that I believe, it hits you so in the core and like teaches you about life and is clearly drawn from some deeply personal experiences and yet is so, so funny and embraces the fact that it is a musical. It has that kind of meta-theatrical quality of it's a classic play within a play structure.

[15:39] Jinhee Kim: Or a musical within a musical.

[15:40] Sean McCabe: A musical within a musical. And we'll get to that.

[15:43] Jinhee Kim: Yes, we will. I am consistently cracking up at that character. There's just so many moments in the show where it embraces that theatricality and the first five pages, as Teresa alluded to, when the farm animals come to life, it's truly hilarious and wonderful. The way you blended the true experience with that musicality and theatricality.

[16:07] Sean McCabe: I mean, I will say also as a former Catholic, Catholicism almost lends itself kind of perfectly to musical theater because one, Catholicism is camp.

[16:13] Jinhee Kim: It's camp. It is camp.

[16:14] Sean McCabe: It is so theatrical. We have incense. We have bells. We have bread and wine.

[16:21] Jinhee Kim: Robes.

[16:22] Sean McCabe: We have robes. We change the robes. We have stained glass. Purple, green, gold. Just kidding. No, we don't. The showmanship of Catholicism, I think is one of those things as a kid that you really walk away from is that it's very, for lack of a better word, right? It's very performative. It's about committing like these grand gestures and acts that really lends itself. So it's kind of like every time you go and they sing, right? So A Mass is just an hour-long musical about part of the Bible every time.

[16:58] Jinhee Kim: Right, right. When you really think about it.

[17:00] Sean McCabe: Yeah, absolutely. And within that structure, you were talking about it earlier, how you created the character of Jamie as like a friend for Sebastian, kind of an ally character that you never got to experience. Can you talk more about that process and how Jamie came to be?

[17:13] Jinhee Kim: I think we always knew that that relationship would be at the core of the story, that somebody had to come in from the outside and kind of shake up his world and his worldview. That's another, I think, really important layer to the show, as you read in that synopsis, is like sort of the examination of the socioeconomic privilege and these two kids coming from very different worlds. Jamie and his mother are sort of hopping around from shelters to shelter. Meanwhile, Sebastian lives a much more comfortable, cozy, and certainly closed or narrow life. We feel for Sebastian as our protagonist, and he is going through this really sort of harrowing, isolating experience, being gay or whatever, figuring out his identity in this environment that is not necessarily super helpful.

But I also think we wanted him to learn some truths about himself and his world to where he has some growing to do and some responsibility to take himself. And so not just making him this kid in this tough environment, but also showing that he has it pretty good compared to some other kids. There are things for him to be grateful for and aware of that he, prior to meeting Jamie and learning about Jamie's life, was not aware of. I think we wanted to challenge him as a character too, and not just put him in this sort of passive victim kind of role.

[18:33] Sean McCabe: I think that really shows in the script as well that you have them first meet in a confession booth. And for listeners who might not be like super familiar with Catholicism in general, the act of confession is like a huge part of the culture of Catholicism. And the idea is that there is like—this is such a crass way to explain it, so apologies to my Catholic family—but it's like a large, almost armoire-looking room, and it's separated on two sides, right? So there's a wall in the middle, and there's a bench in each room, and sort of a grate so that you can't see each other, but you can hear each other. The idea is that you go to a priest for confession, or you can go in and you can confess your sins.

In Catholicism, the idea is that yes, you could pray directly to God, but sometimes you need to hear another human being beside you tell you that it's okay and that you will be forgiven. In theory, it's this very beautiful sort of like sacred idea about humanity and the grace we have to give one another. Obviously, like the Catholic Church has a lot of other stuff going on that filters over that experience, but these characters meet for the first time because Sebastian has gone into confession, and Jamie is just kind of hanging out in there and hiding, and they have a conversation, and so they meet without seeing each other. So there's a little freedom in the way they interact. And I think establishing this idea of these two characters relating to one another without seeing each other, without the judgment of being witnessed, and just kind of starting from this unnaturally honest place, really sets up for the rest of the show to take off because they've taken away something really intimate without giving away anything that would reveal themselves to each other. And I thought that was so smart, the way that that was written into the show. Also hilarious. That conversation is hilarious.

[20:12] Jinhee Kim: I just made it sound like the most profound thing that ever happened. It is so funny.

[20:15] Sean McCabe: It's so funny, but it's also, as Teresa said, the word that's coming to my head is it's intimate and honest and hilarious. The fact that you were able to nail all those things in one conversation is really fantastic. It allows the authenticity of their relationship over the short amount of time over the weekend to feel genuine. But when you kind of shortcut to something really intimate, and you kind of speed through that, and they've already started there, you have such a great baseline for these characters, so that by the time that they're, you know, looking at the planes together, and they're sort of imagining all the places that they could go and the things that they could do, you are fully committed to that. You're like, yeah, they would be having that conversation at this point.

[20:51] Teresa Attridge: Sean, that was an A setup.

[20:55] Sean McCabe: Doing this long enough that Teresa can read my mind. She knows when I want to intro a demo. That was good. That was good.

[21:01] Jinhee Kim: That's why she gets paid the medium bucks.

[21:05] Sean McCabe: The first demo I think we should play is A Window Seat. This is Nat Zagri and Mike Cefalo, both incredible singers and actors. In this scene, this is sort of maybe midway through the weekend. Jamie and Sebastian have forged a friendship. Sebastian is actually skipping rehearsal. He's ditching rehearsal for the Passion Play to go hang out with Jamie, who he just thinks is fascinating. The farm happens to be right next to the airport, which is just a true fact of the real farm that I grew up on, and so it just made its way into the show. Jamie, who, you know, has this challenging home life and is getting older and is getting sort of sick of the conditions of his life, is just dreaming as he watches these planes of flying away somewhere.

[21:44] Jinhee Kim: Great.

[21:45] Sean McCabe: The two actors were in our thesis presentation, so that's what I want to add. Honestly, if NYU doesn't teach by using this podcast and playing it for all the MFA students and they're like, this is what you pay, I don't know what to do.

[21:58] Jinhee Kim: They should give us a scholarship to go to NYU.

[22:02] Sean McCabe: We should be in the graduate musical theater writing program. All right, here is A Window Seat performed by Nat Zagri and Mike Cefalo.

[26:22] Jinhee Kim: And we use the word challenges earlier. And the way Jamie really challenges Sebastian to dream further, to push further, to stretch beyond Sebastian's boundaries.

[26:33] Sean McCabe: Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah, I think there are a few things happening in the song. I mean, at the top of the demo, it also speaks to, again, just the difference of experience that these two boys have, where for Sebastian, he's been on a plane or two in his life, even in his, you know, few years, and Jamie never has. It just highlights, again, the differences that they have. And like you said, I think it's a good opportunity for Jamie to kind of push Sebastian to think bigger, to take a risk, to be playful and silly and present and not, you know, be so caught up in following the rules and being well behaved and so perfect. And that's a huge part of his journey in the show that Jamie helps him with is just learning to let go and to be himself, regardless of what the fears he might have of other people thinking things about him.

[27:18] Jinhee Kim: And I mean, speaking of thinking things about him, can we talk about Amy?

[27:22] Sean McCabe: Yes, we can.

[27:23] Jinhee Kim: Can we talk about the role I was born to play? I love any show that just has a really type A, like a little neurotic and definitely like needs therapy child. I feel like I really identify. Amy is a very interesting addition to this show. I think the fun thing about Amy to me is that it's a character that she's so funny and so interesting, but we're like, girl, no, like every choice that girl is making. Like, Amy! Amy, no! Don't do it! You're smaller than this, you're better than this! Amy is, of course, a girl who has a big crush on Sebastian. And she worked so hard to get cast in the Passion play as Mary Magdalene so that she can play opposite Sebastian, who plays Jesus every year. Again, no pressure for Sebastian.

That's not a big deal to play Jesus in the Passion play every single year. And he can't escape it, even though he tries. And he keeps being like, someone else should do it. And of course, Father Bluger is like, no! No! Nice try! Not only does Amy go through this entire experience of like auditioning and trying to like all just so she can kiss Sebastian. It's so funny that the show she writes, it's incredible. Like, without giving too much away, the priest who doesn't do any work and is just kind of an alcoholic, which like, oh my gosh, shocker, makes this child write the entire show for him. It's a great commentary on the state of the theater, the state of the American theater. Let's exploit this young, talented, clearly neurotic artist, take all the credit for it, and then get upset when it doesn't go my way. Like, oh my god, again, Catholicism and the theater are just the parallels. I'm kidding. We can cut that.

[29:13] Sean McCabe: No, no. Honestly? We'll keep it. I think it's so funny because the kids have their own thing going on. Of course, it's like Amy's in love with Sebastian. Sebastian and Jamie are figuring their own thing out. But it's interesting seeing the way that the adult relationships are paralleled with the kids, right? Because it's like, Amy and Father Bluger, they're so passionate about what it is they're trying to do that they're actually, they don't care very much about the collateral that it costs on other people, right? They're both so self-interested. They don't understand what they're doing is not as pious or as pure as they believe it to be. And then you have Sebastian is so sort of like, focused on trying to be good and trying to let go of Babel Ward and all this stuff.

Sebastian's parents are very, very, like, they fully buy into it. The dialogue is so funny between these parents. The thing with the chili and the trying to make a Caesar salad cracked me up. Oh, no, these are, I've met these people. That line, I stopped in my tracks. I closed the laptop. I'm going to be the voice of the listeners and just say Father Bluger is the head priest of this farm retreat. But he is also, I mean, Father Bluger is honestly my favorite character. He has also made himself the director of the Passion Play. Yes. And is the prima donna theater director that we've all met at some point in our lives. I'm already telling everyone that if Nathan Lane doesn't play Father Bluger, like I'm gonna walk out.

Oh my god. Just love that. Classic. Just absolutely. There's so many moments of identification in my life with Father Bluger. As long as we're getting to know Amy, let's do Kids Are Kissing. Because that number is so charming. So if you could intro that one, that would be fantastic.

[30:47] Sean McCabe: Amy to me, she is a bit of a personal homage to like a lot of my girlfriends from middle school and as in girls who were friends in middle school and high school are still friends of mine today. I love that she is so brilliant and kind of ahead of her time in a lot of ways where she is like this very gifted writer and theater artist and which so many of my, I think of specifically like three of my friends who just were making movies and doing things on a really like higher level than the rest of us. She sort of feels at least that she's behind in a lot of ways, especially kind of socially and in the puberty of it all the adolescence of it all. She is stressed out. She sort of knows that she's better than these kids, but she doesn't fit in and she's not kind of up to their level when it comes to relationships with other kids.

Essentially, she also in that way is kind of a stand in for that experience for everyone and like that frustration. I remember feeling that a lot being like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, people are doing what now? I'm not even close to what kids are up to these days, and always feeling behind as like a queer kid. And I'm sure a lot of people relate to that. And so this song Kids Are Kissing is really just an encapsulation of that feeling that crazy feeling of just being behind and being talked about being frustrated about it. I'd love to listen to Amy's song first. I like that. Yeah. Who is singing on this track? This is Tory, Tory Lynn. And if you want to say this is from the live recording of the Broadway's feature songbook at Lincoln Center.

Yeah, absolutely. And I actually think this is really exciting. So what's really cool about this next song is usually we do pre-recorded demos. But this next recording is actually from the Broadway feature songbook at Lincoln Center. It's live. What? It's a little bit more raw. What you can really experience in this recording is how successfully this actor is connecting with the audience. Oh, she turned it out. She did. Here is Kids Are Kissing performed by Tory Lynn.

[33:13] ♪ Musical number: "Kids Are Kissing" — performed by Tory Lynn ♪

[35:40] Sean McCabe: Oh my gosh. Being in middle school is already rough. And to encapsulate it, it's so deceptive in that it feels simple but the feeling is so big. I remember being that age and everybody else was kind of like, they're quote unquote hooking up. Which means they kiss behind the school and you're like, everyone's a grown up. I'm curious, I know that Sebastian is very much sort of like a character in which you, Sean, are sort of exploring a lot of past experiences. Jinhee, did you have that experience with Amy? Or were you like, how am I going to write this crazy little bit that I love?

[36:05] Jinhee Kim: Yeah, when I think of the high school, middle school, high school experience, I would say I'm kind of a naive person, I guess. So I don't know why I went through the puberty, kind of really, it became myself really shy. I felt really afraid to talk with boys, especially like middle school and high school students. I don't know why, but I really want to go well with them, especially boys, but I feel really uncomfortable. So I don't know why, that's why I really kind of like Amy, because it's kind of different from me. So they're like, oh, I'm really into it. So I love the character of Amy.

[36:40] Sean McCabe: Amazing. I feel like that sincerity, it is threaded in the music itself, though, right? The way that it's written, and she's like, saying all these, she's processing, she's doing it. And she goes, is that sort of like lighter, like, there's like a wanting there that is inherently really sweet, and not quite knowing how to say it. It's not the first show we've had that deals with characters who are young, like teens or preteens. But it is one of the ones that I think explores their relationships with growing up together. And that crossroads of being like, when you're on the precipice of adulthood, and you have to decide who you are, or who you're going to be. It's scary if you don't know who you are now, because if you don't know who you are now, how are you going to figure out who you're going to be?

[37:22] Jinhee Kim: Well, the other thing that I think is so fantastic about this song, this is a very, very relatable experience for many, many people. But from a musical theater craft standpoint, I love that this song, it's basically like a self-contained story of this experience within the song. Like you could remove this song from the show, and it works so well in the show. But honestly, like if you did this at a cabaret, and someone came out and performed it, we'd get all the information we would know to follow up this character, like immediately.

[37:48] Sean McCabe: I always joke that in every show, there's somebody's like, 32 bar cut audition song for college.

[37:54] Jinhee Kim: I was thinking that because you have said that, this is that song.

[37:58] Sean McCabe: This is that song. All the 17, 18 year old girls are like, okay, I need to show them that I'm funny, and that I'm critical, and I'm also really emotional. So I will be singing.

[38:07] Jinhee Kim: Yes, it would make a great cut. And Ginny has this woman high, high, high up at the end.

[38:13] Sean McCabe: It is what I gave the 32 bar cut star, which is now a thing on the podcast.

[38:18] Jinhee Kim: You're giving the 32 bar cut star, this is the song from the show that I think is going to end up in the audition binder.

[38:24] Sean McCabe: Yes, love that. The other thing you've done is you've given a little moment for each actor to make their own. So all I want is a simple little kiss, one that looks like this. And so every actor gets to create that moment. And that's also a gift to a director, by the way. Because then if you assign that cut at an audition, and you can see how the actors play that moment, you can be like, that's Amy. You can know from that interpretation in that moment, this is the actor, this is funny. They have the intrinsic quality that you can't get just from like a singing voice. You give them that moment to really act, and you'll know that's the one. And as an actor, having that moment of trust from a writer is very cool.