This transcript was automatically generated and might contain errors.

[0:00] Teresa Attridge: Backstage Pass, we're world class, with even more in store. Get your Backstage Pass, master class, with even more in store.

[0:22] Pauls Macs: Ever wonder what it takes to make a new musical sing? Our mission is to give you an inclusive look behind the scenes.

[0:28] Teresa Attridge: We're interviewing the creatives who are changing musical theater one 11 o'clock number at a time.

[0:33] Pauls Macs: This is your Backstage Pass.

[0:35] Teresa Attridge: Get your Backstage Pass. Get your Backstage Pass.

[0:42] Pauls Macs: Hello, everyone. Welcome back.

[0:45] Teresa Attridge: Hi. Hello, Barnacles.

[0:47] Pauls Macs: Welcome back to another episode of Backstage Pass. We are in the second episode of our Season 2.

[0:54] Teresa Attridge: Oh my gosh, 2-2. It's squared.

[0:56] Pauls Macs: And it's pals.

[0:57] Teresa Attridge: And Teresa, as always, my loves.

[0:59] Pauls Macs: And we are so happy to have the writers of Lewis Loves Clark here today. Mike, Dylan, do you want to say hello?

[1:06] Mike Ross: Hello.

[1:07] Dylan MarcAurele: Thank you so much for having us.

[1:09] Pauls Macs: Oh my gosh, of course. And I mean, I would be remiss not to mention that there is a dog in this recording with us currently.

[1:16] Teresa Attridge: And what is this dog's name? The audience needs to know.

[1:19] Dylan MarcAurele: So her name is Koopa, as in Koopa Troopa.

[1:22] Mike Ross: From Super Mario.

[1:24] Dylan MarcAurele: She just gets a little bit needy sometimes when it's just one of us home.

[1:29] Mike Ross: Oh my gosh, don't we all?

[1:30] Dylan MarcAurele: Needs to be on a lap right now. So we're letting her do that.

[1:33] Pauls Macs: I get that. And famously, there is a dog in your musical, Lewis Loves Clark.

[1:37] Mike Ross: But we'll get there. We'll get there.

[1:39] Dylan MarcAurele: Yeah.

[1:40] Pauls Macs: Fantastic. Pals, do you think that we should start by doing our little book report on these two? Let the audience know the who, the what, the where, the when, the why of our beautiful writers today.

[1:48] Teresa Attridge: I'm so thrilled to talk with you today because I saw your presentation at the 2024 NAMM Festival and I immediately fell in love with this show. In fact, I cornered Mike outside of the performance and I said, Mike, as a youngster, I loved Lewis and Clark, but I had no idea about the secret history behind them.

[2:04] Mike Ross: And suddenly, as I'm watching this presentation, it all makes sense. We'll talk more about that once we get into the show. I'm so excited to share this with listeners.

[2:12] Pauls Macs: Barnacle stalking and bullying will get you what you want is what we learned.

[2:17] Teresa Attridge: They're here, aren't they?

[2:18] Pauls Macs: They're absolutely here.

[2:19] Teresa Attridge: They're here.

[2:20] Pauls Macs: All right, now we're going to do bios, which can be uncomfortable for people, but that's OK.

[2:24] Mike Ross: We're fine with that.

[2:25] Pauls Macs: Oh, no, you have to listen to a list of your accomplishments and hear all the wonderful things you've done and be impressive.

[2:31] Dylan MarcAurele: It's terrible.

[2:32] Mike Ross: Mike Ross is an author, dramaturg, playwright, lyricist, researcher, editor and general word guy. As of 2024, Mike is working on his seventh book for young readers. His books have sold over a million copies worldwide.

[2:45] Dylan MarcAurele: He is just as surprised as you are.

[2:47] Mike Ross: He has been a Richard Rogers Award winner, a Dramatist Guild Fellow, a member of the BMI Lehman Angle Musical Theater Advanced Workshop, and an on-again, off-again YMCA member. He's from Minnesota, but he lives in New York City. Mike holds a BA in English from Harvard University, class of 2016, and an account on Instagram.com.

[3:03] Dylan MarcAurele: People sell either for the right price.

[3:04] Mike Ross: That's a very, very funny bio, right?

[3:07] Dylan MarcAurele: Thank you.

[3:08] Mike Ross: I got your reading off the website. And even though it is written to be funny, you're right. I can feel my shoulders hunching inward.

[3:14] Dylan MarcAurele: It's so tense to be like, oh, God, I have so many things to be proud of.

[3:18] Mike Ross: Teresa and I are very hopeful that we're somehow going to get a scholarship out of this podcast somehow. We're looking for any sort of compensation for the work that we do.

[3:27] Pauls Macs: Our first target was NYU. But if Harvard calls and says, we want you to teach our musical theater students how to write musicals, we will not be upset.

[3:34] Mike Ross: There we go. I have a Harvard sweatshirt already. Admittedly, did a friend steal it? Yes. But it is from the school.

[3:41] Dylan MarcAurele: Just like Edwards.

[3:42] Mike Ross: Oh, my hero.

[3:44] Teresa Attridge: Oh, my.

[3:45] Pauls Macs: Oh my God.

[3:46] Mike Ross: We'll get into it. We can do a podcast about that musical instead.

[3:49] Pauls Macs: But first, let's toss the attention to Dylan MarcAurele, please.

[3:52] Mike Ross: Work.

[3:53] Pauls Macs: So giving and so generous of you. Spoken like a word guy. All right, Dylan, we're doing you next.

[3:59] Dylan MarcAurele: Dylan MarcAurele is a New York City-based writer and composer. He was a 2021 and 2023 Jonathan Larson Grand Finalist. And he participated in the 2024 Johnny Mercer Foundation Writer's Grove at Goodspeed Musicals.

[4:11] Mike Ross: Dylan recently appeared at the 2024 NAB Festival with Lewis Loves Clark, which is where I saw the show, as we know. And he also participated in the 2024 Johnny Mercer Songwriting Project in Nashville.

[4:21] Dylan MarcAurele: As well as Theater Now New York's Musical Theater Writers Lab and the 2023 Samuel French Off-Off Broadway Festival. His work has been performed at New World Stages, Vineyard Theater, Soho Playhouse, Symphony Space, Caveat, 54 Below, The Other Palace, Paris Theater, Diversionary Theater, Art House Theater, American Repertory Theater, and the Gilded Balloons Big Gin in Edinburgh, Scotland.

[4:42] Pauls Macs: A fan of reality TV, Dylan created the 27,000 follower Instagram page.

[4:46] Mike Ross: Actually, I don't know. How do you pronounce this?

[4:48] Dylan MarcAurele: At Roni Musical?

[4:49] Pauls Macs: I was going to ask you about this.

[4:50] Dylan MarcAurele: Yeah, perfect.

[4:51] Pauls Macs: At Roni Musical. Can you tell us a little bit about what At Roni Musical is?

[4:54] Dylan MarcAurele: Stop Real Housewives of New York?

[4:56] Pauls Macs: Yeah.

[4:57] Dylan MarcAurele: Oh!

[4:58] Pauls Macs: I feel so silly.

[4:59] Dylan MarcAurele: Oh my.

[5:00] Bethany Frankel.

[5:01] Pauls Macs: Don't feel silly. Oh my gosh. Tell the listeners a little bit more about this Instagram. I'm very curious.

[5:04] Dylan MarcAurele: Because I was checking it out. I saw Katie Emerson on there, who's one of my favorite actors.

[5:08] Mike Ross: Oh, yeah. Katie's so great.

[5:10] Dylan MarcAurele: Yes. So during the pandemic, I was watching a lot of reality TV because I was furloughed from my job and had too much time. What I started doing was writing little songs, like a minute long, about the episodes of Real Housewives of New York after they aired.

[5:24] Mike Ross: And it sort of developed a following, and we eventually got asked to do some stuff for the network. And I wrote a song for Andy Cohen, and it was just like this.

[5:33] Dylan MarcAurele: Well, I mean, dare I say, bravo.

[5:35] Mike Ross: Oh, thank you.

[5:37] Dylan MarcAurele: You had to go for it.

[5:38] Mike Ross: I love it.

[5:39] Dylan MarcAurele: Had to go for it. Somebody had to.

[5:41] Pauls Macs: Well, and the last little part of your bio is Dylan also holds a BA in music from Harvard University.

[5:46] Teresa Attridge: You know, we usually ask next, how did you meet and come to collaborate? Did you perhaps meet at Harvard University?

[5:52] Mike Ross: Some?

[5:53] Dylan MarcAurele: Yeah.

[5:54] Mike Ross: Oh, yeah. Very well done. We met when we was freshman fall. This was fall of 2012. We were both 18. We had just gotten there, and we applied to do this annual thing, the Froshical, the freshman musical, where you can apply, and then you get to write the book, read the mirrors, and you all put it on together.

[6:09] Dylan MarcAurele: I got book. Dylan got music. He wrote the score. And in addition to both being really excited to do that together, it was kind of one of the first times I felt like, you know, everyone goes to college, and their freshman fall, they have that moment of like, why am I here? I'm going to transfer and or quit. This was hot off the heels of that for me, and I was like, wait, look, this is exciting. These are friends.

[6:25] Mike Ross: And then I met Dylan, and I was this 18-year-old gay guy from Exurban, Minnesota, and Dylan is from like rural Connecticut. And we met and went, oh my God, you also know Alan Menken and Kesha, which, you know, people knew Kesha, but we like got Kesha, you know. It was this big moment of bonding.

[6:38] Dylan MarcAurele: And then it was like, oh, the kind of musical we want to write together. Like, oh, it's goofy and silly, but we're still like trying really hard. We wrote a very fun silly show with our friends called What the Hell or Pair of Guys Lost about two guys who go on a road trip to try and freeze hell over.

[6:52] Mike Ross: Pair of Guys Lost is an incredible title. That is a top pun of the pod.

[6:55] Dylan MarcAurele: Let me tell you.

[6:58] Mike Ross: Twelve years later, I am still saying that like a high school quarterback talking about a win, like that is how proud I still am of that. And Dylan is very nice to let me do it. We really liked working together, and then we kept working together even after we graduated and both moved to New York. So that is how we met originally.

[7:13] Teresa Attridge: Oh, amazing. Our paths did cross at school.

[7:18] Pauls Macs: Yes, and I am a mouthpiece of the state, and Dylan is a principled freedom fighter.

[7:22] Mike Ross: Honestly, work.

[7:24] Pauls Macs: You know what? You always have one friend who's this archetype and one who's the other. That's how it goes.

[7:30] Teresa Attridge: And what people can't see is that Mike and Dylan are actually twinning right now. They wore the same T-shirt.

[7:33] Pauls Macs: They're wearing the exact same color T-shirt.

[7:36] Teresa Attridge: And we need to know, is that just how psychically connected you are or is green just both of your colors?

[7:43] Mike Ross: So I actually have a huge insecurity about this because I'm colorblind.

[7:47] Dylan MarcAurele: No, no, no.

[7:48] Mike Ross: It's like it's not real, but I'm colorblind, and so like my nightmare is to be like twinning with my husband, whose name is also Mike, coincidentally. So I'm always giving him a hard time about, what are you wearing tonight? And it's the same color as this. So I'm like having so many flashbacks to that right now.

[8:02] Pauls Macs: Oh my gosh.

[8:03] Teresa Attridge: There we go. We're already minding your trauma for the podcast.

[8:06] Mike Ross: Man.

[8:07] Pauls Macs: Dylan, thank you for sharing that and for being vulnerable with us. We did not mean to like press on that button.

[8:12] Dylan MarcAurele: Oh, yeah.

[8:13] Pauls Macs: And like really continuing the wicked connection, you could realistically say to Dylan, you're green today.

[8:16] Mike Ross: And Dylan could go, I am?

[8:18] Dylan MarcAurele: Yeah.

[8:19] Pauls Macs: I'm surprised that he would mean it. But admittedly, I am fixated on your verdigris. This is gonna be a fun one.

[8:25] Teresa Attridge: This is a fun podcast already.

[8:27] Pauls Macs: Oh no. It's already, we're already going full speed ahead, just like Lewis and Clark once did.

[8:33] Mike Ross: Full speed ahead.

[8:34] Pauls Macs: But where? Who knows? Now, not to talk about sort of this theme of like uncharted territory or whatever, but when we talk about creating musicals, in general, there's always the crux of like, how did you get inspired to do this? I'm especially curious, when you pick something based on a historical event, and then expand upon it. How did you guys decide that this was the event you wanted to write about?

[8:54] Mike Ross: So the other thing about when we were in our first meeting in our young 20s, is that I was constantly falling in love with my straight best friends. This happened multiple times. I tell this to people now, and like, you know, the older guys are like, you can't do that. And I'm like, I didn't know. I didn't have a frontal lobe. That's all I was doing. And I don't know how. I think it could have just as easily been Mason and Dixon or Miriam and Webster. But I sat down and I was like, wouldn't it be funny to write a song where Lewis is in love with Clark? And that one, I think, beat out the other two.

[9:21] Dylan MarcAurele: Well, maybe Miriam Webster could have gotten in there.

[9:23] Mike Ross: I was like, okay, I'm going to write a song called An Encyclopedia of Laughs. It was a standalone. There was no musical around it. It was just a set of lyrics where the idea is that he is watching Clark obsessively and jotting down every laugh he does, because I was about like an inch away from doing that with the way that I was watching these guys that are like, which I understand is creepy, but that's where I was. And so I was like, let's make a comedy song out of this. I handed it to Dylan because Dylan is really good at setting lyrics to music. And I was like, do you like this? Is it funny? What do you think? And Dylan was like two things. One, this is very sad. And two, this should be a musical. This should be a whole show.

[9:54] Mike Ross: And the truly crazy miraculous thing is not only was he extremely right and it was good of him to see it, but when I started Googling it, what really made it catch fire is then we found out there is real historical basis. A lot of historians really do believe Meriwether Lewis was this kind of lifelong haunted alcoholic, depressed bachelor who was only ever seen, never, never had a girlfriend, never had a wife, was only ever seen stepping out with the quote from Stephen Ambrose's Undaunted Courage is bachelors of ill repute, which I love, and just lit up around Clark, wrote these letters to Clark, wrote letters about Clark, really, really liked this guy. And I fell all the way down the rabbit hole and I'm convinced. Does Clark love Lewis? Open question. Did Lewis love Clark? I would bet like $5, you know, 1800 times. So I guess it means something.

[10:38] Dylan MarcAurele: All right. Well, you've got a Lincoln coming in the mail because I feel I'm going to pay for that.

[10:42] Mike Ross: And then one more thing is just, it wasn't just that. That was a starting point. But then once you start digging into it, I mean, I'd always kind of been interested all my life. I grew up in Minnesota around the bicentennial. They did a big movie about it that they played in St. Paul. I remember going and seeing it being like, look at that big cute dog. That was part of it. But also Sacagawea is like the coolest woman who's ever been alive in history. All the details of what happened are so crazy and giant and heightened that the truest parts we put in the musical are the parts where everyone's like, why did you make this up? The story itself became really an obsession of mine in a way that it is a microcosm of so much of the birth of America for better and mostly for worse. But at the heart of it, there were also just these really human characters.

[11:20] Teresa Attridge: Love. I just wanted to add that I'm in Seattle right now and I'm from the Pacific Northwest. And what was so interesting to me, as I said earlier, I was really obsessed with Lewis and Clark growing up. They're revered figures around here. And my family actually takes an annual vacation every December. We just got back recently to Seaside, Oregon, which is kind of the end of their trail. And there's a big statue of them in the town that we drive past on our way out of Seaside, Oregon every time we go. They're part of the fabric of this area.

[11:47] Mike Ross: As you said, though, Mike, as I'm watching your presentation, I was so convinced. I am also convinced. And primarily because I hope you talk a little bit about this. The letters that you quote in the musical are truly, truly incredible. And the language that Meriwether Lewis uses to describe Clark is really interesting. Why don't you talk a little bit more about that?

[12:07] Mike Ross: Once we decided that we wanted to get into this, this was right after college. I was about 22, 23. I was just out of college. I was very underemployed. And I would spend whole days at the main branch of the New York Public Library checking out all the books that you could only get for reference from the reference library, trying to read as many like sources and variations as good. You know, you read the original journals and you read the analysis of the journals that you read, different perspectives on it. You know, you get a Native American perspective on the experience, all this stuff. And that was about a year's worth of research. The more we did that, the more it went from, how would we expand this out to a musical to how could we possibly cut it down enough to fit even a two and a half hour musical?

[12:42] Dylan MarcAurele: Earlier I was like, oh, it's an open question. Did Clark love Lewis, et cetera? It's really interesting to me. People ask me that. They're like, was it both of them? I don't think so. We do know that Clark, he like loved Lewis as a buddy truly all the way up to the end, which is in and of itself kind of remarkable because Lewis was, he had a family history of alcoholism and depression that really affected him throughout his life. And once they got back to the States, he really started spiraling downward, even though he was like one of the most famous wealthy beloved people in America. And people started writing Clark being like, your buddy is not doing well. He's not meeting his deadlines. He's not showing up to work.

What's going on with him? Should we write him up? And Clark, right up to Lewis's dying week was like, no, that's my guy. He's going to pull through. I think he's great. He named his first son Meriwether after him. They were in that tent together for three years. And during that time either, and I don't know which option is funnier or more meaningful. I find both of them fascinating. Lewis was that into Clark and Clark spent three years being like, this is my buddy. This is great. We're having a great time together. And like truly not.

[13:38] Mike Ross: We're really excited to be here and talk about our new musical, Lewis Loves Clark. It's a project that we've been working on for a while now, and we think it's a unique take on a historical story.

[14:38] Dylan MarcAurele: Absolutely! The characters are so vibrant and flawed, which makes for some really interesting dynamics throughout the show.

[15:08] Mike Ross: Right, and we wanted to explore the human side of these historical figures. Meriwether Lewis, for example, is portrayed as a depressed, closeted alcoholic, which is a far cry from the heroic image often associated with him.

[15:38] Dylan MarcAurele: And then there's William Clark, who is just breathtakingly oblivious to everything happening around him. It creates a lot of comedic moments, but also some poignant ones.

[15:48] Mike Ross: Exactly! And we have Sacagawea, who is permanently exasperated by the antics of the men around her, and York, who would rather be birdwatching than dealing with the expedition.

[15:58] Dylan MarcAurele: It's a tragicomedy that really dives into the absurdity of their journey while also touching on deeper themes.

[16:08] Mike Ross: We blend different musical styles, including bluegrass, folk, and pop, to create a sound that reflects the characters and their experiences.

[16:18] Dylan MarcAurele: The music is a huge part of the storytelling. Each song helps to develop the characters and move the plot forward.

[16:28] Mike Ross: We have a demo recording of one of our songs, "But Wait, There’s More," that Dylan performs. It really captures the essence of the show.

[16:38] Dylan MarcAurele: I can't wait for everyone to hear it!

[16:48] Mike Ross: And we also have "Sacagawea’s Lullaby," performed by Kyra Atekwana, which is a beautiful moment in the show.

[16:58] Dylan MarcAurele: Yes, that song really highlights Sacagawea's perspective and her struggles throughout the journey.

[17:08] Mike Ross: It's important to us that the music feels authentic to the characters and the time period, while still being accessible to modern audiences.

[17:18] Dylan MarcAurele: We want people to connect with these characters on a personal level, despite the historical context.

[17:28] Mike Ross: And we hope that through humor and music, we can spark conversations about the themes in the show.

[17:38] Dylan MarcAurele: Exactly! It's all about making history relatable and engaging for everyone.

[17:48] Mike Ross: We're really proud of what we've created and can't wait to share it with audiences.

[17:58] Dylan MarcAurele: It's been a labor of love, and we hope it resonates with people.

[18:08] Mike Ross: Thank you for having us on the podcast to discuss it!

[18:18] Dylan MarcAurele: Yes, thank you! We appreciate the opportunity to share our work.

[18:28] Mike Ross: If anyone wants to learn more about Lewis Loves Clark, they can check out our websites and social media.

[18:38] Dylan MarcAurele: We're always updating our pages with new information and behind-the-scenes content.

[18:48] Mike Ross: We love connecting with fans and fellow artists, so don't hesitate to reach out!

[18:58] Dylan MarcAurele: And we hope to see you all at a performance soon!

[19:08] Mike Ross: Thanks again for having us!

[19:18] Dylan MarcAurele: Yes, thank you!

[19:28] Mike Ross: We really appreciate it.

[19:38] Dylan MarcAurele: It's been a pleasure!

[19:48] Mike Ross: Looking forward to sharing more about the show as we continue to develop it.

[19:58] Dylan MarcAurele: Absolutely!

[20:08] Mike Ross: Stay tuned for more updates!

[20:18] Dylan MarcAurele: And don't forget to check out our demo recordings!

[20:28] Mike Ross: Yes, we hope you enjoy the music as much as we enjoyed creating it.

[20:38] Dylan MarcAurele: Thanks for listening!

[20:48] Mike Ross: Bye!

[20:58] Dylan MarcAurele: Bye!

[21:08] Mike Ross: Take care!

[21:18] Dylan MarcAurele: See you soon!

[21:28] Mike Ross: Bye for now!

[21:38] Dylan MarcAurele: Bye!

[22:08] Mike Ross: We can't wait to share more with you.

[22:18] Dylan MarcAurele: Yes, stay tuned!

[22:28] Mike Ross: Thanks for your support!

[22:38] Dylan MarcAurele: We appreciate it!

[22:48] Mike Ross: Bye!

[22:58] Dylan MarcAurele: Bye!

[23:08] Mike Ross: Until next time!

[23:18] Dylan MarcAurele: Until next time!

[23:28] Mike Ross: Take care!

[23:38] Dylan MarcAurele: See you soon!

[23:48] Mike Ross: Bye!

[23:58] Dylan MarcAurele: Bye!

[24:08] Mike Ross: We hope you enjoyed our conversation.

[24:18] Dylan MarcAurele: Yes, thank you for listening!

[24:28] Mike Ross: We appreciate your support.

[24:38] Dylan MarcAurele: And we look forward to sharing more about Lewis Loves Clark!

[24:48] Mike Ross: Bye for now!

[24:58] Dylan MarcAurele: Bye!

[25:08] Mike Ross: Take care!

[25:18] Dylan MarcAurele: See you soon!

[25:28] Mike Ross: Bye!

[25:38] Dylan MarcAurele: Bye!

[25:48] Mike Ross: Thanks for having us!

[25:58] Dylan MarcAurele: Yes, thank you!

[26:08] Mike Ross: We really appreciate it.

[26:18] Dylan MarcAurele: It's been a pleasure!

[26:28] Mike Ross: Looking forward to sharing more about the show.

[26:38] Dylan MarcAurele: Absolutely!

[26:48] Mike Ross: Stay tuned for more updates!

[26:58] Dylan MarcAurele: And don't forget to check out our demo recordings!

[27:08] Mike Ross: Yes, we hope you enjoy the music!

[27:18] Mike Ross: And then, when they make their first contact with the Shoshone people in the Rockies, this is real. The very first Shoshone person they meet is Sacagawea's older brother. Who has not seen her for three years. That is the most insane thing in the world to me. And then, they keep going. She reunites with her family. It's a tearful, happy reunion. But then, they keep going to the coast, and she leaves her family again. And we come to Delaney, and we're like, we have yet to make this moment work. It feels bad every time, because either you have to make it too rosy and act like she's happy to be doing this one. Really, she's doing it because she is under great danger of personal harm and threat from Charbonneau, her abusive husband, who wants her to stay on the expedition.

Or you rob her of all agency and be like, well, she's only doing this because she's under great personal threat, and that feels just as bad. Is there any sort of happy medium? How do you do this? And Delaney, and accurately, it was both artistically and historically helpful, was like, well, she's not just doing this for her own personal threat. She's doing this for her family. She knows that it is not just her that right now she would put in danger by going against this man's wishes. It is all these people she's just met again, that she cares about, that still love her, that she's just renewed that bond. She's not just doing this for herself. She's doing it for everyone around her. And that is how you both portray the barrel she is under, but also like the brave personal choice she is making.

And suddenly, the thing that we've been prevaricating on that took up, you know, way too much of the script without ever feeling good, was like, bam! All of this just to say, the dramaturgy experience has been transformative so far. And Delaney Studi herself was a main person to say repeatedly, she can't speak for all Native people. She can't speak for everyone. And so we are very interested in continuing that process. We know we want to work with a Black American dramaturge so that York's material gets the same attention and other issues related to slavery and other facets of oppression in the show. And we would love to work with a Shoshone cultural consultancy or consultant for specifically Sacagawea's family and experience and background. Because we find that the dramaturgy doesn't just help shore up our character work, it makes the show so much better.

[29:17] Dylan MarcAurele: Absolutely. I think that one of the most striking things to me about the script actually was this river, right? This crossroads of intersectionality that these characters are dealing with, and that Sacagawea and York innately have a kinship with one another that they do not necessarily always trust in Lewis. And this is this idea of you have a Black man who is a slave, but keeps being referred to as this is my friend, and having to be like, yeah, a friend that you got left to in your will. Yeah, you know, and sort of that really horrible juxtaposition. And then Sacagawea, of course, like being kidnapped, and then married off to a man who won her in a bet, gambling. And that they both have these really adverse experiences.

And that Lewis who, you know, as a queer man does feel a lot of pressure and a lot of fear around the sort of like status of his identity and like, what that's going to mean. But when the three of them are together, there are these very, very, like stark and realistic conversations around trust and around what they all know about one another. And the alliances that they make both tentatively and willingly and sort of like stuck in a corner, you all didn't shy away from any of that and about the realities of what that looks like, specifically for the characters of color, which as like an Asian dramaturg, kudos to y'all. But I really do love hearing more about the process of bringing people in.

I mean, theater is, as we know, innately collaborative, but I think it really speaks to the way that you're approaching the story of being like, the only way to tell it truthfully is respectfully and honestly, the only way to make it what it needs to be is to be able to look at it and be like, these are the realities of what is happening. And that doesn't mean that the heart of why we wrote the story isn't there. But it does mean that there are so many other hearts beating alongside it, and that we have to honor everybody's experience.

[31:01] Mike Ross: The last podcast we recorded with Michael R. Jackson and Anna K. Jacobs, Michael R. Jackson said, Well, I'm not a young woman with teeth in my vagina. I'm not even a young woman. There are parts of Dawn's story in that show that I can relate to having a religious background and the pressure that she's feeling, but I need help telling the story. My hope is that as we continue moving forward, hopefully in this post pandemic world, that that question of whose help do I need to tell this story responsibly is something that people are keeping in their heart. And I can tell, I mean, it's not really my place to say that you're like, you're doing it, but I can tell that you're keeping that question in your heart. And it's important.

[31:32] Dylan MarcAurele: Yeah. And Dylan, I'm curious, how does that translate to the music when you're writing for different characters as well? I mean, first of all, bangers, top to bottom.

[31:43] Mike Ross: Top to bottom. It's a no, it's a no skip album. But we play Sacagawea's lullaby. You were setting that up.

[31:52] Dylan MarcAurele: I was setting it up, hell damn. But yeah, when you're writing for characters as well, because you have dramaturgy, obviously for the book and for everything. But when we start getting into sort of the emotional expression of these characters through music, the way that we get a lot of their inner life in that way, what is that process like in terms of the way you approach writing the score?

[32:15] Dylan MarcAurele: So for this project specifically, I knew that I wanted to use Americana and folk and bluegrass and pop as sort of my broad palette. And each song can diverge a little bit from that, but that's the, I'm mixing metaphors now, but that's the canvas, I guess. And so, yeah, I tend to think more from that place as opposed to character specific. We actually, conversations with Delaina about this very thing, there were times when I was debating getting really into drawing from Shoshone musical idioms. And eventually she was like, Dylan, I think you should be writing for all of these characters the way that feels most organic to you. And why would one character be any different? Characters are bursting into song, it's not real.

And she made the really great point that we have Sacagawea and Lewis and York, they all say things like, this sucks. They speak in a relatively modern patois. And she was like, if you then other Sacagawea musically in a way that you're not doing in the book, that is both artistically and demographically weird for the show.

[33:12] Mike Ross: Oh, yeah, I mean, I so appreciate you both saying that, by the way, because it is a trope of mine that I really, really hate. Again, it's like an Asian person. If an Asian person walks on, and suddenly you get like the weird chopsticks derivative, or like, it just gets really quote, unquote, like Eastern, you're like, okay, I think the through line of the show is really clean. And emotionally, each character, it's not that they're written differently. But I feel like it's like that through line is nice, because it actually like interconnects everybody, like Sacagawea's music, it's not that it feels othered, like you were saying, like, that's not it. I feel an intimacy with you through the score that because the character is more reserved in the way that they speak just really opens her up beautifully. If you could set up Sacagawea's lullaby, we'd love to hear that.

[34:45] Dylan MarcAurele: Oh, my friend Kyra Atekwana. And she's an amazing singer. Because I was like, I don't want to sing this one. This needs an actual singer. Here is Sacagawea's lullaby performed by Kyra Atekwana.

[34:55] Dylan MarcAurele: Yeah, well, basically, Sacagawea has said a few times in the show by this point in Act One, that she does not sing, she categorically does not sing, she doesn't have time or patience to sing, it's not necessary. And then there's a moment where she is alone with her baby or newborn who will not stop crying. And so reluctantly, she does start to sing a lullaby kind of the best way she knows how and sort of clumsily, humorously, darkly goes through kind of summarizing the baby's experience in a sort of stream of consciousness way. But then she gets more and more into it. And hopefully the song becomes more moving. Yeah, it's just sort of a sort of folk lullaby with a little bit of, you know, funky meter change in the chorus. I don't really know where to put it otherwise genre wise. And who is singing this song? This isn't you, Dylan.

[34:57] ♪ Musical number: "Sacagawea's Lullaby" — performed by Kyra Atekwana ♪

[37:59] Mike Ross: I just wrote lyrics for this one. I also wrote lyrics. Listen, Sacagawea is a real one. Let's talk about that. The song captures so much of this idea of like, how do you talk to a newborn, which pals, I mean, let's... I recently became a dad.

[38:13] Dylan MarcAurele: Yeah, I can only imagine. Something that stayed with me was this idea of like, I won't tell you sweet things. I'll make you prepared. So then when you meet things, you won't be scared. Life won't be easy. Not one single day. It helps if you've gotten your rest. And I feel like when you're someone who grows up where everything feels really, really hopeless, and you feel like you can't naturally instill hope as this idea, even for a child, the next best thing you can do is make sure that they're not going to be caught unaware by tragedy itself. It actually spoke to me a lot as a second generation person of color, specifically Filipino. But my mom was first gen. And I know that so much of how she grew up was just this idea of like, it's always about how to avoid.

How do you avoid having something bad happen? How do you avoid people discriminating against you? How do you avoid? How do you avoid? It's so interesting to think of the ways that we try to encourage and help people grow in a loving way. And that sometimes for some people, it's like, I can only prepare you for the things that I know, and the things that I know, weren't great. But your best chance is me being honest with you about that. And I think as a parent, it's so hard to be like, I don't know what else to give you. But Sacagawea in this song in particular, I think it's really beautiful and really vulnerable and really realistic. And I really appreciated that about the song.

[39:20] Mike Ross: This is an interesting moment, because I don't feel that I'm the right person to like, Oh, yeah, you captured this moment beautifully. Or this is this feels so truthful from a native person's perspective, right? But like, at the same time, I can read these lyrics and say, our life's a long road, and we aren't halfway. Some men will take from you day after day. Some things though nobody can take away. And then she's speaking to her child, you are the thing I hold close to my chest, I plan to give you the rest, the truthfulness of the parent-child relationship and how they instantly become the number one thing that you care about and will save and do anything for that feels very, very truthful. I'm so glad it landed with you guys.

[40:00] Dylan MarcAurele: I think Mike does such a great job of writing for her in general, but particularly there, she's not talking to a kid the way most people would talk to their kid. And that somehow, I think makes it more moving that she's not mincing words, and that she is not making it at all rosy. And it is a message of hope that ultimately, she is able to do the impossible and kind of create a better life for this kid.

[40:29] Teresa Attridge: Thanks for joining us on New York Theatre Barn's Backstage Pass, hosted by Teresa Attridge and Pauls Macs. Join us next time for part two of our conversation with Mike Ross and Dylan MarcAurele about their new musical, Lewis Loves Clark.